"A couple of you illustrate why there needs to be
> real special ed for truly GIFTED, not just
> smart-there are behaviors, special needs and
> pathologies in this population and anyone who has
> worked with real gifted kids can spot one in a
> three minute conversation. The attributes are well
> documented in the literature, it isn't up for an
> argument."


If it is so easy to spot (3 minutes) and the attributes are well documented in "the literature", why does it take FCPS so long to figure out who is gifted? They have to take 2 tests, put together a portfolio, etc. AND have an appeals process. ???

Then mainstream them like other special education children. At least they should be able to work independently.

common sense Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then mainstream them like other special education
> children. At least they should be able to work
> independently.

That is precisely what FCPS should be doing for the moderately gifted. The highly, exceptionally and profoundly gifted should be the only students attending GT centers.

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/underserved.htm

What is highly, exceptionally, and profoundly gifted? Score?

a question Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is highly, exceptionally, and profoundly
> gifted? Score?

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/underserved.htm

Intellectually gifted children can be classified as mildly, moderately, highly, exceptionally, and profoundly gifted. Levels of intellectual giftedness, as defined by IQ ranges, and the prevalence of such children in the population, can be classified as follows:

Level IQ Range Prevalence
Mildly (or basically) Gifted 115 - 129 1:6 - 1:44
Moderately Gifted 130 - 144 1:44 - 1:1,000
Highly Gifted 145 - 159 1:1,000 - 1:10,000
Exceptionally Gifted 160 - 179 1:10,000 - 1:1 million
Profoundly Gifted 180+ Fewer than 1:1 million

It is a good question as to why it takes an elaborate and very political process to identify students for the GT center based program. Any skilled therapist or educator can talk to a kid and in three minutes can identify the "flavor"of GT as opposed to a regular smart kid, I certainly can. Here's the gist of it- if a five year old can carve a point in an argument down to the head of a pin and frequently says, "well actually" then they are gifted (sounds like a line from "well then you are a redneck"). These kids spend their lives debating either verbally or in their minds, and overthink everything (which ultimately causes the anxiety disorders that are part of being real GT). Socially they have an entirely different agenda and even sexually are very different.(one said to me "since everything is more complicated for a person who is gifted why wouldn't sexuality be?" And it is. I am not sure about a numeric cutoff for programming purposes as one person suggested. There are many who do not test well, especially in a group setting (some are socially distracted) especially boys who are often easily distracted (not to be confused with anything like ADD/ADHD). So it would have to be something more than a number for IQ.

teacherssuck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a good question as to why it takes an
> elaborate and very political process to identify
> students for the GT center based program. Any
> skilled therapist or educator can talk to a kid
> and in three minutes can identify the "flavor"of
> GT as opposed to a regular smart kid, I certainly
> can. Here's the gist of it- if a five year old can
> carve a point in an argument down to the head of a
> pin and frequently says, "well actually" then they
> are gifted (sounds like a line from "well then you
> are a redneck"). These kids spend their lives
> debating either verbally or in their minds, and
> overthink everything (which ultimately causes the
> anxiety disorders that are part of being real GT).
> Socially they have an entirely different agenda
> and even sexually are very different.(one said to
> me "since everything is more complicated for a
> person who is gifted why wouldn't sexuality be?"
> And it is. I am not sure about a numeric cutoff
> for programming purposes as one person suggested.
> There are many who do not test well, especially in
> a group setting (some are socially distracted)
> especially boys who are often easily distracted
> (not to be confused with anything like ADD/ADHD).
> So it would have to be something more than a
> number for IQ.

But it is just a number. The appeals process is quite complicated but the referral is quite simple. It's a one pager - it's the parents that make it complicated, writing books about their kid when in fact it's just the IQ tests. And when it comes right down to it, all they are really looking is the percentile rank on the CogAT and NNAT. I really think the only valid appeal should be 'My kid had the flu that day, please re-test'. Your kid shows up healthy and scores in the 99th percentile versus 89th, he's in. The tests don't lie. The can be manipulated with prepping, but not by a huge percentage.

The tests DO lie and are often not indicative of anything, I can get a 50 point spread in four days with the same kid, more than that if verbally administered one on one. If these tests are indicative of anything it is test taking skills, which is not the same as IQ.

Teacherssuck-I will concede that there are populations of highly intelligent kids who have other issues that prevent them from learning to their full potential in a typical classroom setting. If you were being honest though, you would have to admit that there are all sorts of sub-populations in the school system that have issues which prevent them from learning to their full potential as well. If the schools devoted the same resources to those other populations as you are pushing them to devote to your GT group, the schools would be running many different programs and would have few resources left for those students still labelled "regular kids". Also if you look at many of the kids that you would classify as GT, I suspect you'd find that most of them would still be able to get by in regular classes. Yes they would not end up performing as well as they would in their own programs, but the same can be said for other groupings that we do not currently (officially at least) teach separately.

What it comes down to then is this: Given that we are not going to be teaching each student in an environment that is best for him or her, what type of GT program are we as a society willing to offer, and to whom? You have seen in this thread that for many the answer would be NONE. I suspect that number would be significantly larger if you were talking about only admitting the type of kids that you are talking about. So the question then becomes for you whether you are willing to accept a program which admits a large number of above average students as the cost of having a GT program, or would you prefer to have a handful of your highly intelligent kids taught in the special ed program and have the rest thrown into the general population?

teacherssuck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The tests DO lie and are often not indicative of
> anything, I can get a 50 point spread in four days
> with the same kid, more than that if verbally
> administered one on one. If these tests are
> indicative of anything it is test taking skills,
> which is not the same as IQ.


Yup, decades of research on testing and development are all wrong, tests used by thousands of schools across the country are completely inaccurate. Open to manipulation by prepping - yes. Inaccurate - no.

professor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> teacherssuck Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The tests DO lie and are often not indicative
> of
> > anything, I can get a 50 point spread in four
> days
> > with the same kid, more than that if verbally
> > administered one on one. If these tests are
> > indicative of anything it is test taking
> skills,
> > which is not the same as IQ.
>
>
> Yup, decades of research on testing and
> development are all wrong, tests used by thousands
> of schools across the country are completely
> inaccurate. Open to manipulation by prepping -
> yes. Inaccurate - no.

+1

"professor"- oh sarcasm, what are you like seven, you are not a "professor" or professional in this field or you would relate like an adult. I have been administering these tests for over 30 years and there is plenty of research and literature that illustrates a huge variance in outcomes, you are simply a dickhead.You are one of the idiots who would rely on a test (because, what it is on paper) instead of actually doing the legwork to find the reality, wow you are a lazy dickhead.

teacherssuck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "professor"- oh sarcasm, what are you like seven,
> you are not a "professor" or professional in this
> field or you would relate like an adult. I have
> been administering these tests for over 30 years
> and there is plenty of research and literature
> that illustrates a huge variance in outcomes, you
> are simply a dickhead.You are one of the idiots
> who would rely on a test (because, what it is on
> paper) instead of actually doing the legwork to
> find the reality, wow you are a lazy dickhead.

this from the 'professional' posting with the name 'teacherssuck' - that's funny.

People who argue against testing and standards are typically those who cannot score well on them - which means they either lack the intellectual capacity or are not motivated to do well.

professor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> teacherssuck Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "professor"- oh sarcasm, what are you like
> seven,
> > you are not a "professor" or professional in
> this
> > field or you would relate like an adult. I have
> > been administering these tests for over 30
> years
> > and there is plenty of research and literature
> > that illustrates a huge variance in outcomes,
> you
> > are simply a dickhead.You are one of the idiots
> > who would rely on a test (because, what it is
> on
> > paper) instead of actually doing the legwork to
> > find the reality, wow you are a lazy dickhead.
>
> this from the 'professional' posting with the name
> 'teacherssuck' - that's funny.
>
> People who argue against testing and standards are
> typically those who cannot score well on them -
> which means they either lack the intellectual
> capacity or are not motivated to do well.


I find this argument very interesting, and honestly, I agree with both of you as I have a child in the GT program who didn't test well on the CogAT or Naglieri (123 & 119), but her teacher insisted she belonged in the GT Center. However, I kept her at her base school in 3rd grade convinced that she was just fine where she was. But within a month of the school year, her teacher wanted to transfer her to the GT Center. She asked us to have her tested with either the Weschler or Stanford Binet. We decided to try both and she tested at 145 on Weschler and 140 on Stanford Binet. She is now in the GT Center and is very happy where she is. I would have to disagree with previous posts about kids in the GT having social disorders, anxiety, crazy kids that try to hurt themselves, etc. just because they're highly intelligent. I think you'll find these abnormalities in every classroom. I do, however, think that it's a challenge for a lot of these kids because they're intelligence isn't on par with their social skills. It's up to the parents to deal with these issues (if you think they're issues at all). It was far more glaring when my kid was younger, but now that she's in middle school, the intellectual/social gap is narrowing.

@teacherssuck, so what alternative do you recommend for HTC selection? Interviewing every kid to identify a "well actually" behavior doesn't seem practical, objective or measurable. Please elaborate.

What is HTC?

dumb on this stuff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is HTC?

Highly Talented Center? High Tech Computer? (And doesn't HTC make a smartphone?)

The problem is not identifying the handful of truly gifted children...it is so obvious who those children are and even in Fairfax those kids are rare. I have taught elementary for 24 years and have only seen 5 profoundly gifted children (exactly 5, they are memorable kids). Kids scoring IQs in the 140s are not unusual at all, but the cliff drops off once you get to the 160+ range. These kids do need their own classes, maybe even mixed-age groups. The AAP class is usually not even a good fit for these kids (who often have other social/emotional issues, too.) For instance, I knew a first grader once who tested off the charts--child was doing advanced algebra in kindergarten--but he also had crippling OCD. The poor kid was desperate for friends but friendless.

The problem is identifying the rest of the kids to fill up the AAP class. There is very little academic difference between the bright kids left in general ed and the bright kids who go to the AAP class (more determined parents, one more question correct on a test, etc.).

hahahahai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I gave you an honest answer, long term with more
> than one student, from a professional perspective.
> It is a waste of time, not a real program- the
> only benefit is being with other GT kids.

I'm right there with you. My child is in AAP and fits the profile of a hard-working, above average kid and could pick out the 2-3 kids in their class that really should be in a "GT" class if there were one in the area. In the meantime, my kid gets a solid education with minimal disruption and a ton of homework which teaches her time management skills.

I don't feel the need to defend myself nor my child - I'm thrilled she was selected for the "program" because our local ES was a lot more miss than hit with the teachers. Want to blame FCPS for something blame them for letting down GenED, don't waggle your finger at the kids that escaped and are making the most of the opportunity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2012 12:11AM by Rambunctious.

Couple of things- in terms of identifying a working process for identifying GT kids at the extreme end of the bell curve- who almost always have adjacent pathologies. I hate using that word because I see you have taken a negative inference. The reality is they are just different. When you meet one (as "old teacher" points out) you KNOW it. They are unique and do need special services and to be placed with each other. The general population has the tendency to bully these kids and make fun of them. (jealousy?) I don't see the differences as negative- just as there is nothing wrong with being alone, or being an introvert (interesting article this month in Newsweek how some very famous world leaders are natural introverts- Obama for one). (Pls trolls use another thread to attack this point) The GT centers do not offer any real improvements in terms of curriculum or quality of instruction at all, the only benefit is that your kid gets to be with other smart (but probably not really gifted) kids and hopefully will be bullied less. When they have to mainstreamed because there are no special programs starting in 9th grade there is a BIG question mark (and even in college where they are mainstreamed) about whether the specialness and isolation was a good idea or not. I have two of these and still don't know the answer and at times regret the decision to put them in GT special centers....

Yes. My son was never in the GT center. He is in high school and takes AP/honors courses. His best friend went through the GT center in elementary and middle school and takes no honors or AP now that he has hit the 11th grade. He is behind my son in math ( he was on the regular track with Algebra 1 in 9th grade). The kid does have great verbal ability and good writing. Maybe it's just that his parents have figured out that the race is not worth it. I'm sort of left wondering whether it matters exactly when you advance---maybe he was an "earler bloomer" and my son is a "late bloomer"?? I wonder what difference it will make when they are both 25 or 30 (??)

Yes this is the ultimate question for parents in Fx Cty to figure out, is it worth it or is the GT program, as it is currently conceptualized just something for parents to brag about at the Whole Foods? One step further-the kids that strive so hard, and burn out early, very often Asian, just go to the normal public colleges in Virgina -what was the point of all that studying to get into TJ? (another discussion thread). And now the mediocre colleges in VA (you know who you are, like when I was in HS Tech was considered a pretty crappy choice), now the high achievers who don't want to pay out of state rates make these colleges extremely competitive. (even tho in my opinion that quality is not good). So another piece of the puzzle for the GT population.

teacherssuck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes this is the ultimate question for parents in
> Fx Cty to figure out, is it worth it or is the GT
> program, as it is currently conceptualized just
> something for parents to brag about at the Whole
> Foods? One step further-the kids that strive so
> hard, and burn out early, very often Asian, just
> go to the normal public colleges in Virgina -what
> was the point of all that studying to get into TJ?
> (another discussion thread). And now the mediocre
> colleges in VA (you know who you are, like when I
> was in HS Tech was considered a pretty crappy
> choice), now the high achievers who don't want to
> pay out of state rates make these colleges
> extremely competitive. (even tho in my opinion
> that quality is not good). So another piece of the
> puzzle for the GT population.


So teachers suck, parents suck, GT centers suck, VT sucks, other VA schools suck, TJ sucks - what in your opinion doesn't suck?

I think I already answered that-anywhere NOT in Virginia

teacherssuck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I already answered that-anywhere NOT in
> Virginia

Borders are open - you are free to leave.

I have a child in AAP and one in Gen Ed. There are good and bad in both systems.

My AAP student was so board in school, has perfect report cards even in AAP and usually is the 1st one finished with work. My AAP student does come home and tell me about the outbursts of other kids and how bad the behavior is.

My Gen Ed student is barely passing math and reading and there are no specialists coming in to help. I have a tutor helping and getting my child caught up.

So where do you go as a parent? FCPS need to take a long hard look into the way they figure out funding.

Welcome to the new world of tutoring. You will be using this system for years to come with your gen ed student. It's how the government is getting out of paying for your kid's education (and you are getting into paying for it). There is no "special program" for the gen ed kids, except for the program you provide. The federal money is either for SpEd or ESOL teachers---and forget about Fairfax County or the state providing anything. Zip for helping the "average" kid. You're the one mom.

It's too bad.

Back in the day, I kept kids after school for extra help--lots of teachers did.

Unfortunately, here in FCPS, there is so much going on besides teaching in the classroom. It's not that teachers aren't working as hard--it is what they have to do for the administration and Gatehouse.

We're missing the forest for the trees.

Agree with former teacher. Here are just a few of the trees: The teachers have to meet in their PLC groups after school (to crunch data) or go to a school wide meeting or be on some other special committee---or go to a special training so that someone can show that they are "improving the teachers"---or mentor a new teacher themselves as part of a countywide program directed from above. They have implemented Cougar Time or Lancer Time or whatever during the day to try to compensate for the lack of after school time, but it is often used for administrative functions (ethnic awareness month, anti-bullying seminar, anti suicide, computer safety, community service requirement seminar, anti sexual harrassment workshop,time management skills group, class level meetings, scheduling for next year, etc., etc.). If it's out there, they are doing it. They never reduce this stuff. The number of pressures on teachers' time is incredible. At the same time they have increased class size. They are about to increase the amount that teachers pay into their retirement systems (thereby negating any raise that may be given after years of frozen salaries). There's not too much to cheer about. Meanwhile, the kids are missing out on a joyful, reasonably paced education.

I'm a former GT student, obviously. I haven't yet graduated, but I'm at one of the county's IB schools (so figure it out). I remember 5 main things about being in GT:

1. There were a lot of kids who didn't deserve to be there (especially one girl who was there because her mother was the art teacher)
2. The teaching was fair to mediocre in most cases
3. The curriculum didn't prepare us at all for middle school
4. I (a white, Jewish male) was in the minority. The majority were Asians, with one token black.
5. There were more kids in the GT classes (and more GT teachers) than there were "normal" or "base" teachers.

With reference to point 1, I would not call myself "gifted or talented". I work hard, and while I may have an IQ of 146, I don't care about my IQ. There were kids far brighter than me who burnt out once they hit high school. Referencing point 2, I had two outstanding teachers, one of whom has unfortunately died since I graduated elementary school. They were in the 4th and 6th grades respectively. On point 3, the work we did in middle school was more challenging than anything we did in the "GT" program. And, there was no real attempt to teach us things we could actually use. Our science curriculum in particular was a massive joke. On point 4, I'm (apart from my religion) a pretty decent cross-section of Americans. I'm white and middle class. Finally, on point 5, there were something like 60 kids in the three GT classes. There were 40 something in the two "base" classes. We weren't "gifted or talented", we merely were the 60% who did well on the COGAT or had our parents shove us into the program. I know an autistic boy (my neighbor, actually) who is now in the GT program. I think that precludes it from being truly "GT", despite his high functioning level.

Now, with reference to my caring as a student. I didn't care in 4th-8th grade. When I reached high school, I did. I matured a great deal in the later quarters of 8th grade. Still, to make a judgement as early as 3rd grade is, in my opinion, foolish.

Now, I'm a junior in high school. Most of the "GT" kids at my school went to Langley (not my high school), my high school, or Herndon. The great majority did not go to TJ. I would say (conservatively) 70% of the "GT" kids did not go to TJ. And now, as someone who finally got his shit together, I have better grades than about 95% of the kids who were in "GT" with me.

Former GT Student -

The GT placement process has changed markedly since you were found center-eligible in spring 2003.

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/legacy-content/86789J2271B7/$FILE/Answers%20to%20School%20Board%20Questions.pdf

I am sure the demographics of your Center school have also changed, as has the composition of GT and general ed classes. The total number of students in FCPS has grown since then!

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/Fairfax/Board.nsf/39c6389c088be51585256e56000c1bf2/2b1b2b585a5d305e852570fb004f3f9f/$FILE/Gifted%20and%20Talented%20Center%20Program.pdf

http://www.fcps.edu/fts/planning/cip/cipbook2013-17.pdf

There is no shock that the "great majority did not go to TJ" as (a) there are not enough spots at TJ for all Center-eligible students and (b) not all Center-eligible students want to go to TJ in the first place.

Jack Dale has from the top down ruined our schools. We are made to teach to the test in ES. Our jobs depend on it. How come we spend so much time on the SOL'S. It is not for our health.
BTW: Every teacher is looking for an out. Thank god we can leave at three and drink at four. Kidding. LOL!

Who cares? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jack Dale has from the top down ruined our
> schools.

Just wait for Peter Noonan!

excellent accessment former GT student, if you had it do over again, would you go to the GT center?

believe me, if my house sells you won't have to ask me twice, this place is horrible for everything, education especially for everything more parents believe on this website, it makes me sick.

it's mom and the tutor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Welcome to the new world of tutoring. You will be
> using this system for years to come with your gen
> ed student. It's how the government is getting
> out of paying for your kid's education (and you
> are getting into paying for it). There is no
> "special program" for the gen ed kids, except for
> the program you provide. The federal money is
> either for SpEd or ESOL teachers---and forget
> about Fairfax County or the state providing
> anything. Zip for helping the "average" kid.
> You're the one mom.

+1. My son's elementary school was happy to provide a list of teachers from that school that would tutor for $50/hr. They tutored from 8AM - 9AM, in their classrooms, during what I think was their contract time for FCPS. Nice work if you can get it.

it is a real conflict of interest to refer teachers to tutor, I got a referral for math tutor who was the teachers sister, outrageous rates

hoyut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> excellent accessment former GT student, if you had
> it do over again, would you go to the GT center?


Yes, without a doubt. Not because I have some special "love" for the GT program, but because I'm in the non-IB physics class, and I'm bored out of my mind. The teaching for the normal student is abysmal. I have roughly an 105% in that class, and I spend the majority of the time talking to the girl who sits next to me.

Also sickens me how most guys my age have no balls at all, and they refuse to act like actual men. Then, they shout at me for being an "Alpha Male".

TImesTheyAreAChanging Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Former GT Student -
>
> The GT placement process has changed markedly
> since you were found center-eligible in spring
> 2003.
>
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/le
> gacy-content/86789J2271B7/$FILE/Answers%20to%20Sch
> ool%20Board%20Questions.pdf
>
> I am sure the demographics of your Center school
> have also changed, as has the composition of GT
> and general ed classes. The total number of
> students in FCPS has grown since then!
>
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/Fairfax/Board.nsf/39
> c6389c088be51585256e56000c1bf2/2b1b2b585a5d305e852
> 570fb004f3f9f/$FILE/Gifted%20and%20Talented%20Cent
> er%20Program.pdf
>
> http://www.fcps.edu/fts/planning/cip/cipbook2013-1
> 7.pdf
>
> There is no shock that the "great majority did not
> go to TJ" as (a) there are not enough spots at TJ
> for all Center-eligible students and (b) not all
> Center-eligible students want to go to TJ in the
> first place.


Thank you for the information. It still maintains what I said though. The majority of people were either white or Asian. There was one black kid, as the data supports. And, the teaching was still mediocre to good.

Seems like you got rejected by VT LOL!

That was quite a racist comment. You could probably choose your words better --or--even not say them.

AAP is a joke and more for parents, it should just be for the really globally gifted, but instead you have mediocre classes taught with same techniques, same or even worse teaching style than mainstream..used to be REAL GT with special teachers who GOT it, now it is just teachers who are bored or burned out with behavior problems. Thats another thing, real GT kids DO usually have some pathology-but now they are using as an excuse that the kid has a behavior problem (Duh they are bored) and won't put them in the program that really should have been for them. Then when these kids get to HS there is nothing. Since they eliminated pre-Ib and Pre-AP and substituted honors, which is NOTHING, they aren't challenged at all. All they have to do is figure out the personality disorder of each teacher to navigate the dysfunctional system.

+1. My son's elementary school was happy to provide a list of teachers from that school that would tutor for $50/hr. They tutored from 8AM - 9AM, in their classrooms, during what I think was their contract time for FCPS. Nice work if you can get it.


WOW! Back in the day I used to keep kids after school for extra help--free.

Gift this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dorrhy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A couple of you illustrate why there needs to
> be
> > real special ed for truly GIFTED, not just
> > smart-there are behaviors, special needs and
> > pathologies in this population and anyone who
> has
> > worked with real gifted kids can spot one in a
> > three minute conversation. The attributes are
> well
> > documented in the literature, it isn't up for
> an
> > argument. The reason why this category was
> created
> > initially is because it exists and simply
> > "skipping grades",which is what they used to do
> > (and what I did) doesn't work for these kids,
> they
> > are socially and emotionally different.
>
> Sounds like another douche from the Fairfax
> Association for the Gifted - goes by FAG i think.
> 'I'm gifted - you're not'. Stop sucking up my tax
> dollars - if you are so 'gifted' I'm sure you'll
> do just fine without a government subsidy.

Takes a special kind of idiot/troll to point out that we should not promote our best students with the best teaching. They are an important part of our future and yes they are a resource we need to develop. Who is going to design bridges, operate on patients and create new cures - you? I dont think so...

Back in the day, it was the older kids tutoring the younger for $5/hour.


BTW, anyone get their test results in the mail?

Does anyone have info on the prep courses for CogAT?

I would have to agree. I am a parent of a 4th grade AAP student. I have picked up a booked and read to see if my child truly is gifted or just smart. She's smart, truly gifted kids do need a special education, because there are issues for a person/ child has when they are at a genius level. I won't get into that, but I will defend why parents are jocking for these places in the AAP centers.. It is because the Gen Classes at the homeschools are filled with ESOL students, which I am not complaining about, just stating fact, and many of the " smart" kids or should I say kids that are at or above grade level are not being stimulated and learning very little in a whole year. Yes they are learning to get along with others BUT my child would say, she gets no attention, and she wouldn't ask a question for she knew the others needed the help or that the disruptive kids get all the teachers energy. yes straight out if the mouth of a 1st grader. by 2 grade she just shut down. so what do you do? Your child does test well, top 95 % on these tests and you think- wow if she could be in the AAP class there won't be the disruption and she will be put on a more demanding circulium.
Then you do worry, you think well I know she's not gifted but would it be better then the craziness that she's in now. And believe me the disruption at our home school was crazy. I would go in during K class and there were 4 autistic children another with so many health issues he needed to be fed with a tube. 4 that spoke no English, and so on, so yes you feel incredibly fortunate that'd child is healthy and given so much. But is that enough to say, I'll keep her here, for the good of the school. Well after 3 years no! I received so much pressure about taking her out, losing her SOL scores they said, losing me a volunteer, my donations. Honestly that was such a turn off that I don't feel comfortable going back. I do still write a check though.
Anyway, it's not just one way, some us really struggle weather to send our kids or not.
She is capable of the work and it is harder. Is it gifted really- no. But is her class crazy- no! She loves it thus far.. Do I feel uncomfortable saying her teachers name- to a parent I don't know - yes, because I don't want to be judged as one of those parents.. Or her for that matter.

Hopefully, your gifted child does not write like you. What was your main point?

Her child is in GT. She honestly admits her child is not actually gifted, but is simply doing well enough to get into the program. She has her child there so that her child doesn't have to put up with some of the crap that an above average student in the regular school would.

It is actually what many parents whose kids are in GT would write, if they were being honest.

The above rationale seems reasonable. We have a bright child who is also gifted ... not the bouncy kind or even the non academic kind .. just gifted, bright, academically inclined and is able to sit still and learn while the teacher "manages" the rest of the class. Homeroom teacher was pregnant, distracted and disorganized and it is possible that the kid's Cogat could have been mixed up with another child's. Kid is a good tester, excellent grades and has advanced skills in other areas and is a typical AAP candidate. How can I check on the scores ie what happens once the test is taken . Where do the booklets go? What is the process to ensure that there is no room for mismanagement or tampering. There are parents with kids who cant read well who are thinking of AAP - they are room parents who use their time volunteering for everything other than spending time on homework or teaching their kids to behave/learn etc.and there is every attempt to game the system by them. Not a lot of teachers are impervious.

Yep ... our second grade class has a large girl who farts and cannot read well. She is headed to AAP because her mom is a room mom and volunteers at the school - and wishes for her child to be among the Mark Rubio native citizens .. kid will never go to TJ or take an AP class in middle school or do much with her life but she will be the AAP fart machine and part of the "diversty" - intellectual and physical that one needs in the AAp program. Localizing the program is a great idea by the county but sometimes it can be manipulated to erode its original objective. We see it happening at our school this year.

I'm the parent of multiple AAP/GT kids and was GT myself back in the day.

How about we take the bottom 10-15% and throw resources at them instead? Leave the GT kids in place and the whole class can gallop ahead. The children at the bottom are often the two or three behaviorally challenged who require all of the teacher's attention.

I realize this won't happen because of the stigma, but it would solve several problems.

Failing kids get the help they need.
Late bloomers are allowed to grow at their own pace.
Middle of the road kids, now ignored because they don't make trouble, would be challenged and encouraged by a faster pace.
Kids gifted in only one or two areas can get in school pull out services, also known as Level IV.
AAP kids could still get school-based pull out services.

Current AAP requires you to be AAP in all courses as well as very organized. Boys in particular have problems with this.

betcha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm the parent of multiple AAP/GT kids and was GT
> myself back in the day.
>
> How about we take the bottom 10-15% and throw
> resources at them instead?believe me they throw most resources at this level Leave the GT kids in
> place and the whole class can gallop ahead. The
> children at the bottom are often the two or three
> behaviorally challenged who require all of the
> teacher's attention.
>
> I realize this won't happen because of the stigma,
> but it would solve several problems.
>
> Failing kids get the help they need.they do because of sol's
> Late bloomers are allowed to grow at their own
> pace.
> Middle of the road kids, now ignored because they
> don't make trouble, would be challenged and
> encouraged by a faster pace.
> Kids gifted in only one or two areas can get in
> school pull out services, also known as Level IV.actually that is known as Level III
> AAP kids could still get school-based pull out
> services.
>
> Current AAP requires you to be AAP in all courses not at all - only Level IV is an entire AAP class in all subjects. AAP below Level IV includes enhanced curriculum, individual instruction and pull-out instruction
> as well as very organized. Boys in particular have
> problems with this.you miss the point of AAP entirely - the kids that test in have no trouble at all with advanced courses. They have trouble sitting around learning at 1/2 their own pace in mainstream classes confounding both teachers and parents.


So you obviously are not an informed parent and Id bet you were not in GT.

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Her child is in GT. She honestly admits her child
> is not actually gifted, but is simply doing well
> enough to get into the program. She has her child
> there so that her child doesn't have to put up
> with some of the crap that an above average
> student in the regular school would.
>
> It is actually what many parents whose kids are in
> GT would write, if they were being honest.

Its about trajectory.

Its hard to believe any kid that takes a test in 2nd grade is 'gifted' to the extent of Level IV services. Both my kids tested 98/99% on those things and all their teachers pushed us to go into Level IV program. At that age I was pleased they were smart but lets face it they are still very very young.

Now they are in 7th and 8th grades and you can see that they are in fact quite different from mainstream. They just learn easily and fast. It doesnt make the better than anyone it just means their learning needs at this stage are somewhat unique. Both will finish multivariable calculus, 4 years computer programming and 3-4 years of a foreign language in High School. They will do it with effort but not difficulty.

I was average/low average and was glad to finish Algebra II in HS. I turned out fine. But for people like my kids why not let them learn at the pace they can learn instead of being held back in the mainstream?

PS if you do force your kid into Level IV AAP it falls apart in 7th and 8th grade when your kid is working 3x as hard as everyone else and dont make it into TJ. Instead of being a bright mainstream they are a washed-up AAP kid at 13 years old...

A few little secrets:

1. LOTS of parents send their kids off to have them tutored for the screening tests. Local psychologists can buy a copy of the year's test, and then will teach the kids all the answers. Kids regularly tell the teachers "Oh, I already knew all the answers" after they take the test.

2. A parent referral is NEVER turned down. Ever. You may have to appeal, but you will get into AAP. Really. It's a joke. My old principal used to have the usual irate parents come in all upset that Aashish didn't make the cut off in regular screening. The principal would tell the parent that she would not speak to him until he went through the appeal process. The parent would be irate, how dare you not speak to me, and the principal would tell him to go through the appeal process. EVERY SINGLE KID that appealed got in. It's a joke.

3. If a kid is black or Latino and is anywhere int he neighborhood of a decent score, like even a 115, he's going into the program. FCPS comes around and tells teachers to put those kids in. They never say it in quite those words, but teachers are consistently and subtly urged to pump up the cases of black and Latino kids with scores that wouldn't even get a notice with white kids.

Wow- all that because I mixed up pull-out vs. classroom level service labels. Protest much?

>So you obviously are not an informed parent and Id(sic) bet you were not in GT.

Wrong on all counts. Had kids at two AAP centers and four elementary schools.

AAP as currently formulated requires real organizational skills, especially the fourth grade Project year. Many kids, especially boys, are twice gifted: smart but have problems with executive function. It's typical that teachers and parents have to sign the kid's agenda to ensure the kid at least wrote down his assignments properly. Can't tell you how many boys have the problem of doing the work and then not turning it in. Or forgetting to bring stuff home in the first place. If they write it down, complete it, and turn it in, grades are great. Organization is the main issue.