The Clifton Town Council considered a proposal to help pay $25,000 in legal fees for the Friends of Community Schools group that tried to save Clifton Elementary School.

By Rachel Hatzipanagos - October 5, 2011


http://fairfaxstation.patch.com/articles/clifton-council-considers-controversial-proposal-for-clifton-elementary-school-legal-fees

The thread title is a lie. Read the article, they are looking to apply $25k of town money toward a total bill of over $175k. "Taxpayers paying for the lawsuit" would have been seven times higher.

Had the lawsuits won the town would have kept their as-good-as-private school and benefited, it can take some of the hit. What else do they have to spend the money on anyway?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2011 09:02PM by justsayin.

Dog parks

I have some sympathy for the cause and for the people who led the lawsuit, but the town paying for it? Not hardly. You sue someone, you're on the hook for the costs. You can't come around after the fact and start passing the hat for a lawsuit you decided to start. I wonder who is on the hook to Patton Bogs. Somebody must have committed to paying those costs.

I don’t know who is on the Clifton Town Council but I bet we’ll read all about them here if they say no.

justsayin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The thread title is a lie. Read the article, they
> are looking to apply $25k of town money toward a
> total bill of over $175k. "Taxpayers paying for
> the lawsuit" would have been seven times higher.


Thread title - “Clifton taxpayers asked to pay for failed lawsuits”

Who will pay $25,000?
• Town of Clifton

Who pays for the Town of Clifton?
• Clifton Taxpayers

Were the lawsuits successful?
• No, they failed.


Ergo…

Clifton Taxpayers asked to pay for failed lawsuits.

Makes sense to me.

Please note that the plaintiffs in the lawsuit were listed as individuals and not "Friends of Community Schools" or "Clifton RED/Save Clifton Elementary". While some of the individuals listed as plaintiffs may have participated in these groups, to my knowledge the lawsuits were not brought by those community groups. Minor point, but one that may matter to some on the leadership teams of those organizations.

This is an easy one. No!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

Failed? Not so much.

October 6, 2011

http://www.opengovva.org/images/stories/2011awardsrelease.pdf


"2011 FOI awards recognize Fairfax parent, The Roanoke Times, and two state legislators Virginia Coalition for Open Government to present its annual awards at conference, Oct. 29, at historic Monticello

Jill DeMello Hill of Fairfax is this year’s winner of the Virginia Coalition for Open Government’s Laurence E. Richardson award for individual citizen contributions to open government. The award honors the memory of a longtime Charlottesville broadcaster and a VCOG founding director and will be presented Saturday, Oct. 29, at VCOG’s annual conference at Thomas Jefferson’s historic home of Monticello in Charlottesville.

When the county school board made the surprise decision to close an area elementary school, Hill and many other concerned parents filed FOIA requests looking for answers.

Some FOIAs were answered, others were not, and some showed emails being exchanged at a rate that resembled an electronic meeting. Hill’s pursuit of answers led some board members to publicly complain to The Washington Post about the fact that their emails were public records. Hill filed suit against the county, and while the judge ruled the emails were not an electronic meeting, the judge did find that some of the withheld records should have
been disclosed, and some of FOIA’s public meeting provisions had been violated. Hill’s efforts demonstrated the power of citizens using FOIA to hold government accountable..."
Attachments:

Valor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Failed? Not so much.
>
> October 6, 2011
>
> http://www.opengovva.org/images/stories/2011awards
> release.pdf


And the victory was...

A trophy?

How can you say the lawsuits failed when they accomplished getting Stu Gibson, Liz Bradsher and Tessie Wilson to not run for their board seat again? Let us not forget this also means the end of the blow hard Jack Dale. The Judge for the FOIA suit found the Board Members had violated FOIA laws many times and now for the most part the bad apples are quietly slinking away in the night. Good riddance. On another note, check out this press release. Frivolous lawsuit? The Virginia Coalition For Open Government didn't think so.

http://www.opengovva.org/images/stories/2011awardsrelease.pdf

You've been served Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How can you say the lawsuits failed when they
> accomplished getting Stu Gibson, Liz Bradsher and
> Tessie Wilson to not run for their board seat
> again? Let us not forget this also means the end
> of the blow hard Jack Dale. The Judge for the FOIA
> suit found the Board Members had violated FOIA
> laws many times and now for the most part the bad
> apples are quietly slinking away in the night.
> Good riddance. On another note, check out this
> press release. Frivolous lawsuit? The Virginia
> Coalition For Open Government didn't think so.
>
> http://www.opengovva.org/images/stories/2011awards
> release.pdf



Because they failed.

Never read or said the lawsuits were frivolous, just failures. Because they failed.

They didn't fail. They got lying self serving elected officials to go away. Back to hell you demons.

Where to begin? I could begin by naming the OP, but that wouldn't serve a purpose.

The plaintiffs on the lawsuits are named as individuals. Those individuals agreed to be named on the lawsuit after a meeting at the Town Hall, with close to 100 others from the community. There was overwhelming support from the community at large to pursue the lawsuits. Some of those in support of the lawsuit were/are members of the current Town Council. The article in Patch, while accurately quotes a few people, does not reflect the entire story.

The lawsuits were brought on with community support and Friends of Community Schools/Save Clifton Elementary agreed to act as the voice of the community and agreed to hold fundraisers specifically for the purpose of paying expenses associated with trying to save Clifton elementary, including legal fees. Friends of Community Schools has raised and already paid a significant portion of the legal fees on behalf of the plaintiffs.

Friends of Community Schools asked the Town Council for $25,000 on behalf of the plaintiffs. It they agree, it won't benefit Friends of Community Schools/Save Clifton Elementary in any way. The lawsuits were filed knowing that as a community, we would be paying for them. The Town of Clifton was part of that community when the lawsuits were filed. Now, there are a few individuals in Clifton that want to claim that they shouldn't have to help pay.

I'm puzzled by this. As a resident of Clifton, though not in "Town", I've volunteered for many "Town" events. I've been an avid supporter of Save Clifton Elementary and I've been invovled with Friends of Community Schools from the beginning. I'm a loyal customer of "Town" businesses. Even though I don't live in "Town", for as long as I've lived here, my kids have thought of it as their "Town", and so have we. Isn't that what we did this for? The kids and the community? All of the community, including the "TOWN"? We tried to preserve something that has been an anchor for the kids in the community and this "TOWN", and now there are a few that want to seperate "Town" from "Non-Town". I suspect that this division of "community" will further the divide already started as a result of CES closing and THAT is really a shame.

I suspect that the OP is also the same individual that suspected funds raised by Friends of Community Schools were being used to help fund the school board campaign for Ms. Schultz. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Friends of Community Schools checkbook and balance sheet are available to anyone that would like to see them. All you have to do is ask. I'm sure the OP and others may also suspect that I am Ms. Schultz, and again, you couldn't be further from the truth. Since the OP knows how to reach several members of the Board of Directors for Friends of Community Schools, I suggest the OP contact them directly instead of hiding behind your computer. I'm not trying to make this personal.

Should the Town of Clifton approve $25,000 to help pay for the lawsuits. Of course they should and they know they should. This entire effort was for the Town of Clifton and surrounding community. Go look at the Save Clifton Elementary website and play the video on the home page. There are interviews with Town businesses worried that business would decline if CES were closed. The few individuals in Town that opposed to the "Town" helping were far out numbered by "Town" people that are in favor if helping. It's the right thing to do. The entire community agreed to the lawsuits, including those in "Town". Something the OP has apparently forgotten. And if the OP was opposed to the lawsuits, why was your opinion never made known until now?

Too much to read

I agree democracy has been served, by cleaning house (in a couple of different ways) Clifton parents action was a gift, actually showing that somebody cares about education in this county. I live in Clifton and I have seen these people bake brownies, send in ornate cakes, and host elaborate class parties the likes of which we never have see outside of Clifton, but I had never seen them get into the blood and guts of education and I am proud that they stood up for their school. It is truly a loss-many of you just hate Clifton because you think they have money, which is a crappy reason to hate (I can give you some if you want tho), it was a nice community school where people and kids connected and that is a loss, it follows the movement of FCPS towards big box robot schools with security cameras...yay.

I just think it's so funny that you have an organization primarily consisting of Republicans who are against any type of government bailout and here they are asking for one from the town. If I were the town I would tell them to stay true to their beliefs and stop asking for "hand outs."

Let's Investigate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Clifton Taxpayers asked to pay for failed
> lawsuits.
>
> Makes sense to me.


If you walked into a car dealership, pointed to a new car and told the salesman you'll pay for it now and give him twenty dollars, do you expect them to let you take it home? The thread title would be correct saying "asked to pay TOWARD failed lawsuits", not "FOR failed lawsuits". English much?

plenty of rich snobs in Clifton let them fork over the money

evolved Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Should the Town of Clifton approve $25,000 to help
> pay for the lawsuits. Of course they should and
> they know they should.

Putting your name on a lawsuit is like co-signing a loan - if everything goes to hell, you will be left holding the bag. Plus that person (Jill DeMello Hill) is a lawyer. This is not some yahoo they pulled off the street so they would have the proper legal standing.

It's great that she and others had the courage of their convictions to pursue the lawsuit, and even if Clifton eventually closed, it did do some good. The town should not be footing the bill for this - sometimes you lose and pay the consequences for losing. Any lawyer that put their name on that lawsuit and probably signed up to be liable for the legal costs should know that.

I live in Clifton but not in Town. After reading Judy's selfish statement in the Patch article, I can assure you I will never spend another dollar in her store/restaurant. Which is sad because I have always supported her business because it was part of our community, not because of the food. I prefer Sweetwater and it costs about the same. Quick note to Judy, you hiring a lawyer to try to expand YOUR business for YOUR PERSONAL profit and gain is in no way the same thing as a community hiring a lawyer to try and save OUR COMMUNITY school. CBA had no problem paying the $25K. CBA understood that what was done, was done for the benefit of the entire community and not any single family. I hope everyone remembers your position the next time you are looking for the communities support getting the Clifton Store voted "Best Burger" so you can make more money. I would also like to remind everyone that Judy did nothing to help save CES. Way to go Judy!

Living in Clifton is like living in a barracuda/shark tank. I think they eat their own, just life Clifton resdidents. Nice people, real friendly type, you know the type that will stick a knife in your back for disagreeing with them.

Those plaintiffs had full knowledge what they were doing and it is irresponsible for them to think that others should pay for their folly. Great R District, apparently spending other people's money is OK as long as other people pay for expenses too. Real smart plaintiffs.

Realators should call it now the socialist state of Clifton.

This is truly amazing. But on the other hand I disagreed with them closing down the school.

If it makes any of you feel better about the money, I'm a Democrat.

The screwed up part of this is that we, the taxpayers in FFX County, paid to defend the frivolous and failed lawsuits.

The school closed, the suits failed.

All or part, the fact is Clifton taxpayers are 'asked to pay for failed lawsuits'

And since Judy is one of the few people in the town with common sense, I'll go out of my way to stop by and spend the dollar 'Not a Townie' is holding back.

Just say no to Kendall and Schultz, we don't need one agenda mommies on the school board!

Any idea how much the county paid to defend the lawsuits? Not sure the suits were frivolous, but the county won outright so the lawsuits wasted our money. How do we find out how much? Bet the $ could have helped take some kids out of trailers, reduced class sizes, or reduced fees the kids have to pay. What a waste.

How lame of you all to be mad at parents who fight for what is right for their kids.

The kids are the ones who lost. End of story.

Clifton parents care about their kids! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How lame of you all to be mad at parents who fight
> for what is right for their kids.
>
> The kids are the ones who lost. End of story.

There's the Clifton self entitlement attitude we've all been talking about!! Good job.

Clifton parents care about their kids! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How lame of you all to be mad at parents who fight
> for what is right for their kids.
>
> The kids are the ones who lost. End of story.


Hey, I'm not mad at them. Just asking them to shoulder the cost of the lawsuit they started. I think what they did was great. I also think they should pay for the lawsuit they decided to file.

Kendall, Schultz and Lolita -- a trifecta of one issue candidates.

Jill Hill is a lawyer and apparently a Demorcrat per her post.
Whatever- no way would she let a client walk away without paying $150,000 - yet she expects the town to pay up. Very ironic.

Once again all about Clifton "doing what I say" but not what I do.

Toxic environment, certainly not good for children.

Oh, there are winners in this race, don't you worry. With at least 6 school board members being replaced, we might actually get some common sense back on the school board. "One issue candidates" makes me laugh! WTH was Bradsher? It was ALL about South County for her and nothing else. She ran on a platform of community schools and then turned around and closed the very definition of a community school. Don't talk to us about one issue candidates. Schultz is far from a one issue candidate. CES is a mere blip on her radar at this point. If you want transparency and accountability and true parental engagement with your school board representative, you'll vote for Schultz.

But this thread isn't about Schultz or any other SB candidate.

It's about a community that fought for our childrens' school to stay open. We fought for our community school because we didn't want elementary aged children on hour long bus rides, which many of them do indeed have now. We fought to keep a community from being fractured into 3 very seperate entities. We fought because it was the right thing to do and I would challenge any neighborhood or community with a community school to say that they wouldn't have done the same thing. West Springfield Elementary, Cardinal Forest, Rolling Valley, Keene Mill ES....I could go on. If FCPS decided tomorrow that they were going to close your school, would you fight to keep it open? You need to REALLY think about that. How would that affect your child, your daycare provider, your daily schedule with a longer bus ride, your child's social life, your TRUST in FCPS when all of the reasons supplied by FCPS to justify closing your school turn out to be false? Would you roll over and accept it, or would you stand for principal?

This community fought for a lot of reasons, and one of them was for the good of the "Town". The children that live in the Town and the businesses in Town. The "Town" was in favor of the lawsuits as much as the "out-of-towners". Of course there are a few now complaining. There's an old saying. "You can't please all of the people all of the time...." I'd like to know why their opinions on the matter were never made known before.

It's easy for people on here to comment when they don't know what they're talking about, or the whole story. Nobody, plaintiffs included, ever expected the "Town" or "Clifton taxpayers" to pay for the lawsuits. Several out-of-towners have already committed to fundraisers to help pay the balance of the lawsuits and hope to turn those fundraisers into annual events that would benefit the Town once the balance is paid for. If planned correctly, the Town could start to benefit from those events within the next 18 months. Nobody ever expected the "Town" to pay for the lawsuits. The community agreed as a whole, Town included, that the money for the lawsuits would be raised through various fundraisers. As I stated before, several fundraisers have already been held and paid for a good portion of the fees to date.

The OP started this thread because of their own personal issues. Like I said in my last post, you know how to contact the person/people you have an issue with. This isn't personal, never has been.

Simple question:

If the town was going to pay for some of the legal fees, and everybody knew that all along, why wasn't the commitment made ahead of time? Why is this even an issue?

Maybe because everybody DIDN'T know, and now they're being asked to cough up town cash for a vendetta?

If they didn't know, why not? The closing of CES was an ongoing issue for over 2 years and there were many meetings held that were open to everyone in the community. Why didn't you know? Where have you been? When did I say that the "Town" agreed to pay some of the legal fees? I said the "community" agreed and that there were members of the "Town" present. I've always considered the "Town" to be part of that "community". Was I wrong about that? I suspect that there are very few in "Town" that would disagree with me considering the support us "out of towners" provide to the "Town" during events and the support we show the businesses in town on a daily basis.

Vendetta? Have you looked in a mirror lately? If anyone here has a vendetta, it's you, and it's misplaced.

evolved Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If they didn't know, why not? The closing of CES
> was an ongoing issue for over 2 years and there
> were many meetings held that were open to everyone
> in the community. Why didn't you know? Where
> have you been? When did I say that the "Town"
> agreed to pay some of the legal fees? I said the
> "community" agreed and that there were members of
> the "Town" present. I've always considered the
> "Town" to be part of that "community". Was I
> wrong about that? I suspect that there are very
> few in "Town" that would disagree with me
> considering the support us "out of towners"
> provide to the "Town" during events and the
> support we show the businesses in town on a daily
> basis.
>
> Vendetta? Have you looked in a mirror lately? If
> anyone here has a vendetta, it's you, and it's
> misplaced.

Well, if the Town was going to pay part of the legal fees, it would have been nice to work that out ahead of time. Now, you're buying a pig in a poke, and the pig is dead.

Liz Bradsher had kept her nose out of Clifton.

The CLEAR WINNERS here are the KIDS that got out of that horrible stuck-up CES and now get a chance to have a somewhat normal childhood.
The money means nothing compared to the good that was done. Most Clifton people cannot see beyond money.

The only reason the Town is being asked for help now is because of the time frame in which payments are to be made. If the plaintiffs and FCS, on behalf of the plaintiffs, had more time to organize and hold more fundraisers, we would gladly do so without ever asking the Town for assistance. The "Town" was also assured that there are certain fundraisers which were very successful in raising money for the initial legal fees that we would like to turn into annual events to benefit the Town. Events that would otherwise probably not happen. It takes "community" involvement, and much more than that portion of the community that lives in Town to make those events happen. The fact is, many of the Town events are possible because of so much help from the surrounding community. The surrounding community puts more support into the Town than a few seem to realize or want to remember.

Oh, and that pig? It's not dead. Not by a long shot. Jack Dale was quoted about a week ago saying how there are now more Kindergarten students than there are Seniors in high school and how FCPS will need to build more schools, but doesn't have the land. It's only a matter of time before CES is re-opened. It was a poor decision and everybody knows it.

It wont be reopened. School board wont vote for it as it would delay renovations in their own districts. Before you spend your money you should make sure you have it. I thought you were Republicans?

evolved Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, there are winners in this race, don't you
> worry. With at least 6 school board members being
> replaced, we might actually get some common sense
> back on the school board.

I thought this was about a lawsuit and not a race. It's all about kids and not politics, right?

The lawsuit failed. I understand people wanting to fight for their community school. I do not agree with citizens submitting lawsuits that cost the school system (taxpayers) a pile of money and expecting their town (other taxpayers) to help foot the bill.

I think it is fine SB members and SB candidates will win or lose based on their views on this subject. Thye have to answer for their votes or pledges. This topic seems to ask, however, if taxpayers should be called to fund lawsuits when private citizens file them.

Very special to live in Town of Clifton -- they get to help pay the legal bills on BOTH sides!

Not a townie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I live in Clifton but not in Town. After reading
> Judy's selfish statement in the Patch article, I
> can assure you I will never spend another dollar
> in her store/restaurant.
>
> Quick note to Judy, you hiring a lawyer to try to
> expand YOUR business for YOUR PERSONAL profit and
> gain is in no way the same thing as a community
> hiring a lawyer to try and save OUR COMMUNITY
> school.

You have TOTALLY missed her point and your anger is misdirected and ill-informed.

You erroneously equated the name of the town and the name of the school, assuming all the students live in the town. That isn't correct. Read the article, her point was less than 7% of the student body of the school live in the Town of Clifton (read - families that pay into Town of Clifton coffers), and having the Town shoulder a piece of the bill is inappropriate due to its miniscule revenue representation in the problem.

Her point was perfectly valid and she has a right to be angry. I'd be pissed too if I had to pay into legal fees for an effort where my people were only 7% of the affected group that stood to benefit. Let's see the collection plate passed to the other 93% first and then we'll talk about what a fair share of the remainder is.

Clifton parents care about their kids! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How lame of you all to be mad at parents who fight
> for what is right for their kids.
>

As one who lives in Clifton, but not the town, I'll share that the smear tactics and nastiness alienated many. I hope the town approves the $25K, leading to more divisiveness. Cause and effect.

evolved Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only reason the Town is being asked for help
> now is because of the time frame in which payments
> are to be made.

Why? All big boys and girls these folks - the people filing the lawsuit and the law firm (so much for pro bono, eh?). Whose deadline is this? Some law firm decides the invoices are due net 30, and the town is supposed to jump into action? Someone signed the contract with the law firm - that person(s) is responsible to pay the debt. They can hold fundraisers if they want, but they shouldn't 'fundraise' from the town taxpayers.

You seem to hate Cliftonites because they had a good school, why not hate Great Falls and Langley and Oakton and...yea they/we had a good school because of the size -the bigger the school the more impersonal...direct your hate correctly, not because you are jealous.

logicaldog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You seem to hate Cliftonites because they had a
> good school, why not hate Great Falls and Langley
> and Oakton and...yea they/we had a good school
> because of the size -the bigger the school the
> more impersonal...direct your hate correctly, not
> because you are jealous.


Nobody's jealous of the Cliftonites; just amused. It takes HUGE balls to bring a PRIVATE lawsuit, lose, and then trot back to the Town and ask for 13% of the Town's annual budget. Kudos for chutzpah.

ah, but no guarantee that's what they would have spent the money on.

Good Point Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any idea how much the county paid to defend the
> lawsuits? Not sure the suits were frivolous, but
> the county won outright so the lawsuits wasted our
> money. How do we find out how much? Bet the $
> could have helped take some kids out of trailers,
> reduced class sizes, or reduced fees the kids have
> to pay. What a waste.

Not sure I understand. Because the school system might not have spent this money on lowering class sizes we should be okay they ended up using it to pay law firms to defend theselawsuits? Of course there’s no guarantee FCPS would have spent the money the way we would want, but we’ll never know, they had to pay the lawyers.





even better point Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ah, but no guarantee that's what they would have
> spent the money on.
>
> Good Point Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Any idea how much the county paid to defend the
> > lawsuits? Not sure the suits were frivolous,
> but
> > the county won outright so the lawsuits wasted
> our
> > money. How do we find out how much? Bet the $
> > could have helped take some kids out of
> trailers,
> > reduced class sizes, or reduced fees the kids
> have
> > to pay. What a waste.

It would have been great if Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Liz Bradsher had kept her nose out of Clifton.

+1,000
Kids now have an hour bus ride and Jack Dale said that there are more kindergartners than seniors now and we'll have to have new schools built, yet they close a perfectly good 1953 school that is younger and bigger than many other existing elementary schools in FCPS.

Stupid!

Too bad we had Liz and Jack to deal with.

God help others who think the FCPS is such a great deal. I can't wait till 2012.

Cliftonite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would have been great if Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Liz Bradsher had kept her nose out of Clifton.
>
> +1,000
> Kids now have an hour bus ride and Jack Dale said
> that there are more kindergartners than seniors
> now and we'll have to have new schools built, yet
> they close a perfectly good 1953 school that is
> younger and bigger than many other existing
> elementary schools in FCPS.
>
> Stupid!


Yes You are!

Is your house still for sale? This hurts your own home values. You are stupid.

Cliftonite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would have been great if Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Liz Bradsher had kept her nose out of Clifton...

>Kids now have an hour bus ride
•From what neighborhood to what school? One hour for kids in grades k-6 is too long, I agree.
>and Jack Dale said that there are more kindergartners than seniors now
•I don’t think increasing enrollment in FCPS is new. This is about the whole county and not the Clifton area.
>and we'll have to have new schools built
• If they keep adding more kids at some point they will have to add schools or add on to existing schools. Not sure they will be needed in Clifton, though.
>yet they close a perfectly good 1953 school that is younger and bigger than many other existing elementary schools in FCPS
• I don’t know how old the schools are. Maybe others are older than 50+ years. Are they near Clifton? Could these new kids get there?

Dear Dell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is your house still for sale? This hurts your own
> home values. You are stupid.


It has nothing to do with money. I know that you can not understand this. That is the root of the issue.

funny1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just think it's so funny that you have an
> organization primarily consisting of Republicans
> who are against any type of government bailout and
> here they are asking for one from the town. If I
> were the town I would tell them to stay true to
> their beliefs and stop asking for "hand outs."

Very well put!!!

@ Good Point who was wondering"

"Any idea how much the county paid to defend the lawsuits? Not sure the suits were frivolous, but the county won outright so the lawsuits wasted our money. How do we find out how much? Bet the $ could have helped take some kids out of trailers, reduced class sizes, or reduced fees the kids have to pay. What a waste."

Thanks to the success of plaintiff Jill Hill's lawsuit against the School Board for FOIA violations, you can now find out that information. Just submit your FIOA request to FCPS. Let us know when you get copies of the invoices for legal fees paid by FCPS to defend the action for the law that they were found to have violated!

dell ave Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The CLEAR WINNERS here are the KIDS that got out
> of that horrible stuck-up CES and now get a chance
> to have a somewhat normal childhood.
> The money means nothing compared to the good that
> was done. Most Clifton people cannot see beyond
> money.


+1

You could always get this information through a FOIA. The lawsuit was to stop the closing of Clifton. Clifton was closed and the court upheld the closing. Not sure how this was a success.

I cannot think of a bigger failure of our FCPS. I hope you don't blame parents for wanting a great public school for their kids. The kids performed. The teachers performed. The parents performed. The school won many awards.

Now tell me again why Jack Dale, Liz Bradsher and the rest of the SB wanted the school closed. I want the REAL reason.

I have never had a answer to to the real question. Why?

We should be proud we can sue for the rights we are owed. Even if you do not agree you must agree we are allowed the right to sue for what we feel is wrong.

If you did not want to pay for the lawsuit with your taxes you should have raised hell to keep Clifton open.

Not a success Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I cannot think of a bigger failure of our FCPS. I
> hope you don't blame parents for wanting a great
> public school for their kids. The kids performed.
> The teachers performed. The parents performed. The
> school won many awards.
>
> Now tell me again why Jack Dale, Liz Bradsher and
> the rest of the SB wanted the school closed. I
> want the REAL reason.
>
> I have never had a answer to to the real question.
> Why?
>
> We should be proud we can sue for the rights we
> are owed. Even if you do not agree you must agree
> we are allowed the right to sue for what we feel
> is wrong.
>
> If you did not want to pay for the lawsuit with
> your taxes you should have raised hell to keep
> Clifton open.

There is that Clifton sense of entitlement that will hopefully cost Liz and Lin-dai the election.

Plus you are a pole smoker.

We are the 1%.

Not a success Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I cannot think of a bigger failure of our FCPS. I
> hope you don't blame parents for wanting a great
> public school for their kids. The kids performed.
> The teachers performed. The parents performed. The
> school won many awards.
>
> Now tell me again why Jack Dale, Liz Bradsher and
> the rest of the SB wanted the school closed. I
> want the REAL reason.
>
> I have never had a answer to to the real question.
> Why?
>
> We should be proud we can sue for the rights we
> are owed. Even if you do not agree you must agree
> we are allowed the right to sue for what we feel
> is wrong.
>
> If you did not want to pay for the lawsuit with
> your taxes you should have raised hell to keep
> Clifton open.


I don’t think anyone blames parents for wanting great schools. The only reasons I read about the closing of the school is what was posted online or reported in the paper. Of course you have the right to sue, but you also have the right to lose. You sued because you felt you weren’t given the “rights” you were owed. The court disagreed. I am sorry for you that your school was closed. Isn’t it time to move on?

We are moving on but we will never forget how we were treated by Liz Bradsher. She lied and so did the SB.

I hope they can reopen Clifton to ease the overcrowding and get the kids decent sized classrooms.

Also Dell Ave we were told is was always about the money. Hope you can sell your house. :)

No one lied to Clifton, but it is easier to think that because let's face it
"...YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH."

Many reasons to close per reports which are/were online did you read them?

Ha ha ha FU asshole.

oh please. When have they lowered class sizes in these last 5-10 years?

What's the point? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not sure I understand. Because the school system
> might not have spent this money on lowering class
> sizes we should be okay they ended up using it to
> pay law firms to defend theselawsuits? Of course
> there’s no guarantee FCPS would have spent the
> money the way we would want, but we’ll never
> know, they had to pay the lawyers.
>
>
>
>
>
> even better point Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ah, but no guarantee that's what they would
> have
> > spent the money on.
> >
> > Good Point Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Any idea how much the county paid to defend
> the
> > > lawsuits? Not sure the suits were frivolous,
> > but
> > > the county won outright so the lawsuits
> wasted
> > our
> > > money. How do we find out how much? Bet the $
> > > could have helped take some kids out of
> > trailers,
> > > reduced class sizes, or reduced fees the kids
> > have
> > > to pay. What a waste.

oh please - understand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> oh please. When have they lowered class sizes in
> these last 5-10 years?



They probably haven't. With having to answer these BS lawsuits how could they?

Have to admit, perhaps it could be an excuse, but even they aren't lame enough to use it.

So go ahead, give up your rights as a taxpayer and citizen. Perhaps they can build another gatehouse with the money they skim.


Oh please, Oh please Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> oh please - understand Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > oh please. When have they lowered class sizes
> in
> > these last 5-10 years?
>
>
>
> They probably haven't. With having to answer these
> BS lawsuits how could they?

Clifton will reopen. FU JD!

Colonel Jessup Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No one lied to Clifton, but it is easier to think
> that because let's face it
> "...YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH."
>
> Many reasons to close per reports which are/were
> online did you read them?

I read them, closing CES was definitely the correct decision.

Total BS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clifton will reopen. FU JD!

I hope!

If FCPS really wanted to close CES they would have taken down they HUGE Clifton ES sign by now.

It is still lit up at night. Kids are left to wonder. Who is in charge and can the new SB change a wrong?

Make up your minds!

Is Clifton really closed forever?

We would all like to know.

Why is the Clifton ES sign still up and running? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If FCPS really wanted to close CES they would have taken down they HUGE Clifton ES sign by now.

> It is still lit up at night. Kids are left to wonder. Who is in charge and can the new SB change a wrong?

> Make up your minds! Is Clifton really closed forever? We would all like to know.


This is so ridiculous. The kids are not left to wonder. This is about the adults who feel slighted. Kids have moved on, unless their parents are telling them they have been wronged and their old school may reopen. It is my hope that this poster is simply talking in hyperbole and not forcing his/her children to feel like the world is against them. Act like an adult.

again Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have to admit, perhaps it could be an excuse, but
> even they aren't lame enough to use it.
>
> So go ahead, give up your rights as a taxpayer and
> citizen. Perhaps they can build another gatehouse
> with the money they skim.
>
>
> Oh please, Oh please Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > oh please - understand Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > oh please. When have they lowered class sizes
> > in
> > > these last 5-10 years?
> >
> >
> >
> > They probably haven't. With having to answer
> these
> > BS lawsuits how could they?


Both statements are stupid. The lawsuits did not create larger class sizes but the lawsuits were doomed to fail and wasted a lot of public money, too. Yes, the Clifton people had the right to sue, but it still cost us all a lot. They had no chance to win and any reasonable person knew it.

No chance to win? The violation of the open meeting act law just doesn't include much on email correspondence. The court pretty much refused to step in, as a result.

Regardless of what transpires over the coming months and years, they've been served notice that citizens will act if treated like this again. That is worth the money spent. It was deplorable. Of course, others have different opinions, but I wonder what they would think if they actually read about all that happened (not others' opinions of it), with an open and analytical mind. Further, if this happened in their own backyard, I wonder what they would think.

Really. Put this one to bed. Focus on the elections. You're better heard there.

The elections are what we need to focus on. We can have a better SB and get Jack out too.

really? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No chance to win? The violation of the open
> meeting act law just doesn't include much on email
> correspondence. The court pretty much refused to
> step in, as a result.
>
> Regardless of what transpires over the coming
> months and years, they've been served notice that
> citizens will act if treated like this again.
> That is worth the money spent. It was deplorable.
> Of course, others have different opinions, but I
> wonder what they would think if they actually read
> about all that happened (not others' opinions of
> it), with an open and analytical mind. Further,
> if this happened in their own backyard, I wonder
> what they would think.
>
> Really. Put this one to bed. Focus on the
> elections. You're better heard there.


Yes, let's put this one to bed, but with a dose of reality. From what I read in the Washington Post, the court did not overturn the closing of Clifon because the technical violations of the open meetings act were inconsequential to the vote -- not because the law doesn’t talk much about emails.

The emails really didn’t influence the vote to close the school. Ok, so now Patti Reed won’t be able to watch school board meetings over the internet and send email and school board members won’t send emails to people during meetings. This was the victory and cost the taxpayers of Fairfax County how much?

Ok, I hope to be the last poster on Clifton ES.

The parents wanted to fight for their community school. I hope you would too if you were put in their same place. Caring is a ton of work. Sorry you feel 400 kids were not worth fighting for. Now go vote for the SB member you hope will not screw you over.

Bye, bye.

Fighting for kids in all of FCPS! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, I hope to be the last poster on Clifton ES.
>
> The parents wanted to fight for their community
> school. I hope you would too if you were put in
> their same place. Caring is a ton of work. Sorry
> you feel 400 kids were not worth fighting for. Now
> go vote for the SB member you hope will not screw
> you over.
>
> Bye, bye.

Sorry, had to reply. I never said 400 kids aren’t worth fighting for. To me, one kid is worth fighting for. Yes, caring can be a lot of work. Filing stupid lawsuits because you disagree with a school board decision, though your right, is a waste and all Fairfax taxpayers are paying for it.

Bye, bye.

I don't think it was a stupid lawsuit.

If nothing else it revealed the politics and petty decision making process of staff and school board through the release of the emails. In none of the emails did I get the impression that any of this was for the good of the students who attended Clifton. It also certainly did not help the overcrowding at other schools nearby.

It was a bad decision. To close a successful school and have nothing to show for it does not seem wise. It may have been legal, but it that does not make it right. In the end, no money was saved either.

not a Clifton resident: +11

not a Clifton resident Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think it was a stupid lawsuit.
>
> If nothing else it revealed the politics and petty
> decision making process of staff and school board
> through the release of the emails. In none of the
> emails did I get the impression that any of this
> was for the good of the students who attended
> Clifton. It also certainly did not help the
> overcrowding at other schools nearby.
>
> It was a bad decision. To close a successful
> school and have nothing to show for it does not
> seem wise. It may have been legal, but it that
> does not make it right. In the end, no money was
> saved either.


It may have been a bad decision, but you could get all the same information from FOIA’s. That costs about nothing, the lawsuit surely cost tens of thousands of dollars or more. Argue the merits of the decision and vote for who represents you best. All this makes sense. Filing lawsuits and making taxpayers pay for them does not.

Bad information Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The emails really didn’t influence the vote to
> close the school. Ok, so now Patti Reed won’t be
> able to watch school board meetings over the
> internet and send email and school board members
> won’t send emails to people during meetings.
> This was the victory and cost the taxpayers of
> Fairfax County how much?

The 'open meeting' is a joke when they all sit there e-mailing each other rigging each vote. They have plenty of time to speak one on one before the meetings - do they really need to insult us by having a sham of an open meeting while chatting with each other during the meeting? It made a mockery of what an open meeting should be. What if a jury was joking and passing notes and deciding on guilt or innocence by email while supposedly listening to a trial? No one would stand for that.

oh puh-lease Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bad information Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > The emails really didn’t influence the vote
> to
> > close the school. Ok, so now Patti Reed won’t
> be
> > able to watch school board meetings over the
> > internet and send email and school board
> members
> > won’t send emails to people during meetings.
> > This was the victory and cost the taxpayers of
> > Fairfax County how much?
>
> The 'open meeting' is a joke when they all sit
> there e-mailing each other rigging each vote.
> They have plenty of time to speak one on one
> before the meetings - do they really need to
> insult us by having a sham of an open meeting
> while chatting with each other during the meeting?
> It made a mockery of what an open meeting should
> be. What if a jury was joking and passing notes
> and deciding on guilt or innocence by email while
> supposedly listening to a trial? No one would
> stand for that.


“Rigging each vote?” The judge ruled the emails did not impact the vote so no vote was “rigged.” This is just another exaggeration. And the analogy between jurors emailing one another during a trial about whether a person should be locked up or put to death and about school board members sending inconsequential emails during a public meeting is just plain stupid. Sorry you felt insulted. Getting your feelings hurt does not justify ridiculous, costly lawsuits. But again, you have the right to file them.

I voted.

Nic Richie

I had the last word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I voted.
>
> Nic Richie


Thank you for your vote.

We are watching you.

The Dirty Army Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We are watching you.


Cool. what am I wearing?

I had the last word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I voted.
>
> Nic Richie


Who is Nic Richie?

I doubt you can be in the Dirty Army but many have proved me wrong.

Any dirty pics to go with this hot mess?

I agree withe really? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The elections are what we need to focus on. We can
> have a better SB and get Jack out too.


Has Schultz come out with an opinion on this?

This isn't a school board issue, it's a Town of Clifton issue.

I had the last word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I voted.
>
> Nic Richie

Who are you?

Not an issue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This isn't a school board issue, it's a Town of
> Clifton issue.

Same thing, which is why Schultz and Kendall are running

yupp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not an issue Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This isn't a school board issue, it's a Town of
> > Clifton issue.
>
> Same thing, which is why Schultz and Kendall are
> running


Is Kendall from Clifton, too?

Schultz does not live in the Town of Clifton, she lives near it. And her campaign has been about a lot more than Clifton. It has been about the Springfield District's need for transparent representation on the School Board. She is very familiar with a wide range of challenges and successes in FCPS.

Motivation to run Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yupp Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Not an issue Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > This isn't a school board issue, it's a Town
> of
> > > Clifton issue.
> >
> > Same thing, which is why Schultz and Kendall
> are
> > running
>
>
> Is Kendall from Clifton, too?

Close by. They're both motivated by, and running due to the school closing. The plan is to get all of Lorenze's candidates elected and then collude to reopen the school and send more resources to Lorenze's district, amongst other things. It has nothing to do with transparency.

Motivation to run Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yupp Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Not an issue Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > This isn't a school board issue, it's a Town
> of
> > > Clifton issue.
> >
> > Same thing, which is why Schultz and Kendall
> are
> > running
>
>
> Is Kendall from Clifton, too?

By the way, what part of Clifton are you from? Want to get together for coffee or something? I can discuss Clifton politics all day. Literally all day.

oh puh-lease Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The 'open meeting' is a joke when they all sit
> there e-mailing each other rigging each vote.
> They have plenty of time to speak one on one
> before the meetings - do they really need to
> insult us by having a sham of an open meeting
> while chatting with each other during the meeting?
> It made a mockery of what an open meeting should
> be. What if a jury was joking and passing notes
> and deciding on guilt or innocence by email while
> supposedly listening to a trial? No one would
> stand for that.

The open meeting laws aren't designed to prevent emails and one on one discussions. You found out who voted to keep Clifton open and who voted to close it, and some of them have paid the price for their decisions. Think Bradsher will run for public office again any time soon?

She might...sorry to disappoint but more to this county than 20 nasty people from Clifton. Most know that and she does too.