A couple nights ago I was going into work late at night and was caught speeding going south on Pohick Rd between the Pohick-Alban-Rolling intersection and Lorton Station Blvd. The officer got me at 52MPH. He told me I was doing 52 in a 35MPH zone. I told him I thought the limit was 40MPH, but he told me I was wrong and gave me the ticket.

This morning on the way to work I double checked and it was indeed 40MPH. Now I know I was speeding, and he may have given me a ticket for going 12MPH over, but maybe not. At least I don't want to pay an extra $25 unnecesarrily ($5 per MPH above the limit). Even thought it's not much I'd like to get it reduced for the principle of the thing.

What can I do to correct this? Do I have to go to court? Since I'm technically guilty would I have to pay court fees?

Thanks for any advice.

I'd go to court. The prosecution can always re-charge you if you admit to driving above the speed limit, which is probably what they would do. At the very least, it would remove from the record the "almost reckless" charge.

I haven't had this happen, but I'm curious. Is there some way to get that corrected administratively, without taking it to court? I'd want to try and call somebody, but I don't know if you'd want to contact the PD, or the courts, or what.

Call the PD and talk to a supervisor for starters. May not get you anyplace but its a start.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2007 12:06PM by bdimag.
Attachments:

Do I just call the PD and ask for any supervisor, or the officer's supervisor? And what number would I call, the West Springfield or Franconia district? Thanks again

that is where i got my first ticket... the cop was on the side out of the car... on the gravel that is right before the turn to lorton station.

66/35... and it is 35mph

35MPH? Where is the sign that states that limit? Going south on Pohick towards Rt 1, as you continue on Pohick by turning right at the Rolling-Pohick-Alban intersection, right there is a 40MPH speed limit sign. After you cross over I-95, there is a "warning: 35MPH speed limit ahead" sign, but it doesn't actually become 35MPH until you cross Lorton Station Blvd.

Now true, going North towards Rolling Rd, the speed limit is 35MPH for that same section, but it is 40MPH going south towards Rt 1.

Am I wrong in this?

By the way that's the same spot the cop was for me, two of them actually, right on that gravel path.

Was it the road into the Public Storage? I saw a cop there standing outside with his radar gun one time.

I am not sure, so I might be wrong, but I just read on the Lorton Station message board that they just recently changed the speed limit from 35 to 40 on Pohick Road.

speedy john Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do I just call the PD and ask for any supervisor,
> or the officer's supervisor? And what number would
> I call, the West Springfield or Franconia
> district? Thanks again


Call the district where the officer wrote the ticket. Yes just call the district office and ask to speak to a supervisor.

A similar thing happened to me years ago on I-66 in Fa-queer county. Cop wrote me a ticket for 69 in a 55, but the speed limit was 65 there. I noticed it later but just paid it because I didn't feel like going to FaQ-weird county to fight it.

this ticket i got was about 3 years ago... I will look again when i go home.. im pretty positive its 35... whether or not its properly posted.. again, i'll look later.. (i know i've seen a 35mph on the other side of the road on the bridge that crosses 95)..

If you have a good driving record, do NOT just pay the fine. You'll amass 4 demerit points if you do; even for being 12 over rather than 17, you'll still amass 3.

I recommend that you go to court. The way it works is that they call your name and ask how you plea. Plead guilty (you admit to driving 52, right?) The judge will tell you to come forward. He'll ask the officer how many points you have on your driving record. ANYTHING positive (even a +1) helps your cause. He'll then ask if there's anything you want to say. Own what you did. By then you should have some sense of how the judge is viewing your situation and you can decide whether or not to bother raising the issue of 40 versus 35.

If your record is good, I believe the judge will give you an amended charge for which points won't be assessed, and possibly no fine either. You'll still have to pay court costs however. Now I could be wrong, but I thought the only time you don't have to pay those is if you're found not guilty. I believe they still apply if you prepay, and I know they definitely apply if you neither prepay nor appear in court (then you're found guilty in absentia).

I have a good driving record. I'm 23, male, and the only ticket I've ever gotten is for an expired inspection, which I don't think gives me any points. Can there be positive and negative points?

I found a couple mentions in the Lorton Valley Star Newspaper (http://lortonvalleystar.com) that talk about this screwy section of road. It seems really messed up, and I hate that I get trapped in it. I barely topped 50 and immediately began slowing once I saw the warning sign for 35MPH-limit-ahead, but right after that was the cops. I don't like to whine, but I'm just pretty upset about this.

So you have 5+ points on your DMV record?

Do exactly as I said. I predict you'll pay 62 dollars in court costs and nothing more.

Your biggest concern should be to do what it takes to not amass ANY points, which as a 23 year old male will drive up your insurance rates. Take responsibility for what you did, and I think the judge will be lenient and amend your original charge.

If you were to plead not guilty and then make the 40 versus 35 matter the main issue, I believe your best outcome will be that you're found guilty of 12 over, for which you will amass three demerit points.

Don't just pay the fine. And good luck! Report back in a month and let us know how things turned out.

Oh, and to answer your question about positive and negative points. There are two ways to aquire positive points. The DMV applies one point to your record for every year of good driving (i.e. not aquiring demerit points), up to a maximum of 5. The other way is to take a one time only driver improvement course for five points. That's a good idea for very young drivers who haven't been driving long enough to accumulate positive points, and those who've been found guilty of two or more offenses for which points are applied.

The negative points are applied for various traffic related offenses, with the number corresponding to the severity of the charge. These offset the positive points you've aquired. So, for example, if you were found guilty of 17 over, your record would go from +5 down to +1.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2007 05:25PM by boudreaux.

If you were heading on Pohick Rd. towards US Rt. 1 (over the I-95 overpass), then the posted speed limit is in fact 35mph.

It is a known place of enforcement. In fact, some generous citizens painted the speed limit sign post a shade of brilliant orange, presumably so it is not missed.

While the speed limits on the other "legs" of the roadways in that area are 40mph as posted, this stretch is 35mph.

boudreaux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you have a good driving record, do NOT just pay
> the fine. You'll amass 4 demerit points if you
> do; even for being 12 over rather than 17, you'll
> still amass 3...

Wrong. The points for speeding are:

1-9 mph over: 3 points
10-19 mph over: 4 points
20mph+ over: 6 points
(this is also how the ticket is described on your driving record)

So 52 in a 40 zone and 52 in a 35 zone are both 4 pointers. So, unless the fine is based on how many miles over...it's a moot.

I live right off pohick, the speed limit there IS 35 mph

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> boudreaux Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If you have a good driving record, do NOT just
> pay
> > the fine. You'll amass 4 demerit points if you
> > do; even for being 12 over rather than 17,
> you'll
> > still amass 3...
>
> Wrong. The points for speeding are:
>
> 1-9 mph over: 3 points
> 10-19 mph over: 4 points
> 20mph+ over: 6 points
> (this is also how the ticket is described on your
> driving record)
>
> So 52 in a 40 zone and 52 in a 35 zone are both 4
> pointers. So, unless the fine is based on how
> many miles over...it's a moot.


I had incorrectly thought that 10-15 over was 3 points.

It doesn't alter my recommendation to appear in court rather than prepay, given that there's a good chance of receiving an amended charge for which zero points would be applied.

For him to leave court with zero points would require that the speeding charge be dropped, or a ruling of not guilty. There is NOT "a good chance" of that happening...in fact, it is a very long shot.

Especially if his only defense is that he was only going 12 mph over the limit, instead of 17.

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For him to leave court with zero points would
> require that the speeding charge be dropped, or a
> ruling of not guilty. There is NOT "a good
> chance" of that happening...in fact, it is a very
> long shot.
>
> Especially if his only defense is that he was only
> going 12 mph over the limit, instead of 17.


I never said there was a good chance of the charge being dropped or of him being found not guilty. What I said was that there was a good chance of it being amended to one for which no points would be applied, given his good driving record. It happened to me the week before last (I was 18 over), in addition to several other people whose cases I eyewitnessed while there, and also to a friend of mine two months ago. It's hardly a 'long shot'. It happens all the time.

If by "amended" you mean the charge is reduced...say to 1-9 mph over the limit, then yes he'll get 3 points instead of 4.

But you can't "amend" a moving violation down to zero points...not without an aquittal. And the judge has to be in a VERY good mood for that to happen,...OR you'd have to feed him/her a very novel and original line of BS.

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If by "amended" you mean the charge is
> reduced...say to 1-9 mph over the limit, then yes
> he'll get 3 points instead of 4.
>
> But you can't "amend" a moving violation down to
> zero points...not without an aquittal. And the
> judge has to be in a VERY good mood for that to
> happen,...OR you'd have to feed him/her a very
> novel and original line of BS.


With the intention of being helpful, I've offered advice to the original poster that was based on my own recent experience and those of others that I've eyewitnessed. You, he and anyone else can consider or dismiss it however you like in formulating your own ideas on the subject. Best wishes.

It was simply my intention to urge the OP to dismiss your "advice"...because it was uninformed bullshit. Unless you read the final abstract of these cases (the document that goes to DMV)...the final outcome may or may not have been what you thought you saw or heard in the courtroom.

My "ideas on the subject" were formulated over 32 years in the "business".

Best Wishes to you too!

There is a fairly new sign right before you get to the public storage that says 35 mph, it doesnt look like the regular white speed limit sign though,I think its actually yellow so you probably didn't notice it. But its there. Good luck.

I happened to drive that road today. If you are heading south on Rolling and go straight through the Alban Rd/Pohick Rd intersection, Rolling Rd turns into Pohick. The speed limit was 35 mph for the longest time BUT it is not any longer.

Just south of the intersection there is a 40 mph speed limit sign and just before the I-95 overpass there is a yellow warning sign indicating that the speed limit decreases to 35 mph on the other side of Lorton Station Road.

If you got a ticket after the speed limit changed, just go to court with pictures of the signs - which clearly show the road - and the judge will amend the speed. It is still speeding though.

If you look here http://lortonvalleystar.com/ you will see that the "Lorton Valley Star" posted an article saying VDOT was increasing the speed limit. I'm not sure when the article was posted, but scroll down to the article titled "Speed Trap Limit Increasing."

they definately changed it.. i saw the signs...
Attachments:

Hey everyone,
Just wanted to say I recieved a ticket at the same location 2 days ago. The two cops had a speed trap set up at the u haul on this road. They pulled me over after the officer waved me over and scanned me with the ladar. He said i was doing 50 in a 35. The sign says 35mph but with a yellow caution sign around it and in the virginia drivers manual states this sign means caution slow down pedestrian or speed limit change up ahead. But in fact the road is 40 until you get to the lorton station road intersection. Well, I was pulled over before you even get there meaning the cop was trying to abuse this fact still even after vdot has changed the speed limit this month, which they did from 35 to 40. Cops are still pulling people over for a 35mph. What should I do when I go to court and what should I say. I took pictures of everything. I'm 23 years old drive a 4cyl camry and I haven't had a ticket in over 8 years. Any advice my court date is Sept 19th. Thanks!

Finally, someone else agrees with me about the speed limit change. I've emailed VDOT asking when the speed limit was changed. The public affairs officer forwarded my email to the traffic engineering department who should get back to me soon.

Just so you all know I will be going to court, at least to shave off $25 and have the experience of going to court. I'll update this to let you all know what happens.

i think everyone has already agreed to the speed limit change...

you guys should compare officers.. if its the same - maybe you can file a complaint... most people wont realize its a 40mph zone.. he's swindling everyone! damn swindlers.. or wait.. i forgot they want you money - it probably wouldnt make a difference..

thats been their spot for god knows how long... lets give em the boot.. or.. put a bunch of tacks in the gravel.. A BUNCH

hey guy,
Yeah the speed limit has been changed! And by the way it looks like the cop that pulled me over was a cop in training I believe. He was with another cop in the car when they gave me the ticket. Three cops in all at the speed trap but the name on the ticket was Glassman Badge Number 3438. Anyone else get a ticket at this spot from this guy? Anyhow I'm goin to court to see what happen. Also I'm going to check the laws on what they are suppose to do to tickets if they are invalid. I believe they can't pull you over for one thing they realize its wrong and charge you with something different. But i'll check and let you guys know good luck in court buddy.

Hey Steven,
I got ticketed by that same guy Glassman! my court date is Sep 19 I believe.

By the way, I talked to VDOT and here's the text of the email:

Quote

The speed limit on Pohick Road from LaGrange Street north to Alban Road was changed from 35 miles per hour to 40 miles per hour as authorized by the Commissioner on May 30, 2007. The attachment shows the segment that was changed. Thanks.

And I've attached the image they sent me of the affected area. I've sent another email asking when they actually changed the signs.
Attachments:

Steven,
Since we have the same officer, same location, and same court date, you want to email me? My address is enclosed in brackets: . Replace all four spaces with periods.

Okay, let's try parentheses instead:

Steven,
Since we have the same officer, same location, and same court date, you want to email me? My address is enclosed: (john 008 doe gmail com) Replace all four spaces with periods.

Just got a second response from VDOT:

Quote

After being authorized by the Commissioner on May 30, 2007, the signage changing the speed limit from 35 MPH to 40 MPH was installed on July 16, 2007.

also for those who might be wondering:

Quote

the signs that were posted when the ticket was written govern, not the date authorizing the change in speed limit.

So these guys have been writing incorrect tickets for almost a month!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2007 03:26PM by speedy john.

the question now is, at what point where you when he waved you over.. when did he take his radar down? there is a good deal of space between Lagrange St and Lorton Station Blvd..

thats a really iffy situation... and actually VERY shady on the part of the cops..

so good luck - i hope the judge yells at him...


i was hoping it would show the "arresting officer" on the VA courts website so i could be like, OH HEY thats the same cop that got me 3 years ago.. but it doesnt show it - and i know i dont have the summons..

Well, speedy, you might just have yourself a case! The cop making the wrong charge may be just the technicality you need to get off.

But probably not if you represent yourself....take a good attorney with you and you'll probably walk. NUTHIN impresses a judge more that somebody spending a 2 or 3 grand to beat a 50 dollar rap.

After all, judges are lawyers too...it's like a fraternity....and they love to see defendants paying big legal fees...especially to guys they play golf with on Saturday.

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, speedy, you might just have yourself a case!
> The cop making the wrong charge may be just the
> technicality you need to get off.
>
> But probably not if you represent yourself....take
> a good attorney with you and you'll probably walk.
> NUTHIN impresses a judge more that somebody
> spending a 2 or 3 grand to beat a 50 dollar rap.
>
> After all, judges are lawyers too...it's like a
> fraternity....and they love to see defendants
> paying big legal fees...especially to guys they
> play golf with on Saturday.

While I absolutely agree with you on the lawyer-fraternity thing I think he will only succeed at best to have it knocked down to 52/40. He still can't justify why he was at 52 MPH. Also, by posting this junk on here for all to read he just exposed his "case" to everyone. The officer can amend that case before it goes to trial and then he is still left with trying to explain why he was doing 52/40 which he freely admitted to doing here online. Just my opinion...

I'm not going to get a lawyer thats a complete waste of money. For a speeding ticket the insurance rates go up 600 a year for 3 years...lawyer prolly cost 2k...I'll represent myself and try to get thier earlier to talk to the ADA. Also I was charged with doing 50 in a 35 I wasn't doing 50 nor was I in a 40 mile an hour area. I was in the 40 zone and pulled over right after thier speed trap on the nearest shoulder. Also John doe I wrote you an email. And to the guy "ba" who said we posted our case over the interent for the cop to read he can read it if he wants and amend the case, but I've got my copy of the ticket which will show he changed the ticket without notifying me...hope he has a good excuse. I'm still going to court, but as the lawyer thing goes no thanks.

Talk to the commonwealth attorney doing the traffic cases. Ask about taking the improvement classes instead. If you have a good record and dont hassle them about it they just may cut you a break. The traffic school in exchange for the conviction is the best deal in town.
You take the class, keep clean for a few months and the charge is dropped. You can even take the class online. No conviction on your record and no insurance company to notify.

where do i find the commonwealth attorney and he is the same as the ada right?

He or she will be in the courtrooom the day of the trial. You can ask to speak to them before court but they may put you off. You can thank the civil fees law which has clogged the court like never before. People are trying to wheel and deal their way out of the reckless driving charges to avoid the $3,000 fee.

You sometimes just have to wait until they get a break to talk to them. When you enter a plea you can always ask the judge about the traffic school in exchange for a conviction especially if the charge is wrong. Maybe the judge will deem it a wash for the commonwealth and let you go to school. It doesnt hurt to ask.

Okay, first of all, Fairfax County General District Court has a policy unlike surrounding jurisdictions. They will not allow a defendant to go to a driver improvement school in lieu of a conviction. Everyone else does, Fairfax does not. You can attend the school to get the +5 points on your record and if you do it before court, judges will give you a little credit for accepting responsibility, but not much.

Second, this is not a big deal. The officer will likely realize the mistake prior to court and amend the charge before the trial begins. The Commonwealth reserves the right, under law, to amend a charge BEFORE the trial begins. People often appear in court with their chests poked out because an officer made a clerical error on the summons. Common examples are writing male instead of female, or getting the weight wrong, or eye color wrong, etc. Granted, the speed limit being wrong is not a clerical error, but just requires an amendment. It will not result in the case being thrown out.

Officers sometimes mistakenly charge offenses under the wrong code section and that is not even grounds for a dismissal. Under Virginia law, as long as the Commonwealth presents the case to a judge, the judge can find guilt under another code section. Like if you are charged with DWI, a judge can find you guilty of reckless driving instead. So, the officer can proceed with the trial charging you for 52/35 (or whatever your speed was) and when you get the opportunity to present your case, you show the judge why the speed limit is in fact 40 mph and the judge could then find you guilty of 52/40.

Your best bet - either way - is to plead not guilty, present your case in a PROFESSIONAL and RESPECTFUL way and a reasonable judge might throw you a bone. If you come in there hostile and argumentative with the officer you will be found guilty and will likely appeal and come back to the Circuit court. Good luck, and drive safe.

Hey everybody, just an update.

At court yesterday there were three of us with the same officer and infraction. One guy who went up only had a photo of the stop sign. The officer insisted the sign was not changed until after the incident. The judge only lowered the charge to "Failure to obey a traffic sign", a $30 charge and 3-points on his record.

The other two of us told that guy to wait for us to go through. One of us went up next and showed additional photos of the sign and road, as well as the email communication with VDOT showing the sign was changed to 40MPH more than 2 weeks prior to the incidents. The judge lowered the charge for all three of us to "Failure to pay full time and attention", a $30 fine (suspended for all three of us for good driving record, +4 and +5), and no DMV points.

While we were in court over 4 hours, we saved ourselves about $100 in fines and about a $1000 in increased insurance rates. I think it was well worth the trip.

Lesson to everyone from our case and others we saw: Always go to court if you have a decent driving record, you will almost always get at least a reduced charge/fine. Thanks for all the advice.

speedyjohn Wrote:
>
> While we were in court over 4 hours, we saved
> ourselves about $100 in fines and about a $1000 in
> increased insurance rates. I think it was well
> worth the trip.
>
> Lesson to everyone from our case and others we
> saw: Always go to court if you have a decent
> driving record, you will almost always get at
> least a reduced charge/fine. Thanks for all the
> advice.

I knew you would end up with an amended charge for which no DMV points would be applied...and paying nothing other than court costs. I too can't emphasize enough that if you have a good driving record, you should NOT waive your right to appear before a judge.

Congrats, speedyjohn!

Fellers,
Please, just slow down. If you pay as much attention to the speed limit signs on
the road while driving as much as you focus on technicalities of the law on the msg board, you will not have this problem. I havent had so much as a parking ticket in
30 years now. I had to learn the hard way. Take it easy, but take it.

slimey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fellers,
> Please, just slow down. If you pay as much
> attention to the speed limit signs on
> the road while driving as much as you focus on
> technicalities of the law on the msg board, you
> will not have this problem. I havent had so much
> as a parking ticket in
> 30 years now. I had to learn the hard way. Take it
> easy, but take it.


Agree! Best post of the day!

slimey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fellers,
> Please, just slow down. If you pay as much
> attention to the speed limit signs on
> the road while driving as much as you focus on
> technicalities of the law on the msg board, you
> will not have this problem. I havent had so much
> as a parking ticket in
> 30 years now. I had to learn the hard way. Take it
> easy, but take it.


I completely agree about slowing down. The speeding ticket I received this summer was the first of my entire life...and it's going to be my last. I've never been a fast driver by any means, although living in this area I had fallen into the bad habit of 'going with the flow of traffic' instead of checking my speed against the posted speed limit. The ticket was a wake up call to make an adjustment, but I'm also very grateful that the judge was lenient and considered that this was the first violation I had ever been charged with. I wouldn't hope to be quite so fortunate if it were to happen a second time.

you're not gonna believe this, the same exact thing happened to me in the same spot. 51/35 and the first thing i said in court was the speed limit was 40. the signs are unclear, it changes to 35 RIGHT before Lorton Station and the officer usually catches you way before then and waits to get to the speed limit sign to pull you over. they changed it to 40 in court but did not write it down so now i'm battling to get it changed so i don't go to traffic school.

Cars are a total unnecessary luxury. Stop polluting the air. RIDE BIKES YOU RETARDS.

BIKE RIDER Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cars are a total unnecessary luxury. Stop
> polluting the air. RIDE BIKES YOU RETARDS.

why? i take comfort in knowing im contributing to the destruction of the planet. besides, does your bike have air conditioning and a sound system? no, of course not, it's a bike. btw, my car is not a luxury as i drive 30 miles to work daily. i get to work in about 45 minutes, how long would it take on a bike? oh, dont forget, you cant ride your bike on highways so you would have to take side street routes kicking it up to 45 miles. so, can you bike 90 miles in a day?

go eat a granola bar, you dirty hippie.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

I second Gravis' take, for different reasons. If we hasten the destruction of the planet, we will be forced to put our resources into something a lot more interesting, namely space travel to find another planet to ravage. I want my kids and their kids to have space journey, and I know the only way to achieve that goal is by strip-mining the entire planet, and then burning and re-burning the stripped resources to make the atmosphere untenable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2007 03:44AM by RESton Peace.

Here's anecdotal experience:

I contested a speeding ticket a year and a half ago. I went to Court, and had to sit through MANY ticket proceedings as my last name, and the last name of the police officer who wrote me up, falls within the middle of the alphabet.

The first few officers botched their testimonies against their first drivers by providing insufficient detail of the scene, and/or incompletely testifying to the workable condition of their radar/laser equipment. The judge in those cases threw out the proceedings and let the driver go without any fine, recorded infraction on their record, or Court costs. Lucky them!

I got hosed. My officer got a chance to practice his testimony on those drivers ahead of me, and so know what not to exclude from his testimony. My fine was reduced by half, but then had to pay the Court fees. So I saved a total of $8.00 in costs, but wasted a half a day there instead of being at work.

If your last name starts with an 'A', and so does the officer who cited you, you have a decent chance.

Thank you for sharing that interesting experience with us. Guess what happened to me today? I tripped on the sidewalk.

Today, I fell down the stairs.