I hope that there are no needs at all on the Appalachian Trail or other natural areas as the National Park Service is going to waste 27 million dollars to fill in areas around the Belle Haven marina to create swamp land that will on the scale of a "Bridge To Nowhere"


The area south of the marina called Dyke Marsh was a site where sand and gravel was dug out from the early 1900's to the mid 1960's. The excavation created islands in the marsh area.The haul road used by dump trucks is now the access route into the Dyke Marsh. This area is inhabited by numerous wild birds and marine animals. The NPS is going to place fill back into holes on the river bottom to recreate swamp land. The total cost of the project is 27 million dollars. There will be an impact of the existing marine life.

The sick fact and irony of the waste of money is that the marina itself on NPS property is neglected. Piers are rotting, The one lane Boat ramp is in need of renovation. The bulkhead is eroding. The NPS has not spent 1 dollar to have the channel dredged so sail boats can safely get in and out of the marina.

Belle Haven Marina has been in operation at the site for over 60 years. Wild life and people come together in the marina. A pair of Ospreys have now made their nest yearly only 25 yards from the boat launch to the delight of many wildlife photographers. The marina serves sail boaters, power boaters, kayakers, canoeists, wind surfers and all sorts of paddle craft folk. Thousands of people come to the marina each year to stroll thur with children and enjoy the setting. The Marina has a popular sailing school where young and old learn to sail Flying Scott sail boats. Belle Haven also rents the Flying Scott's and kayaks and canoes.

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/projectHome.cfm?projectID=20293

All part of their dogma: waste millions restoring it to its condition "before the white man arrived" yet do nothing for those actually paying for it.

Back in the day it was home to floating whore houses. restore that first. I used to fish a deep spot back there, guess that was the gravel pit. The Dyke Marsh is a hook up spot for fags, never seen any dykes there, maybe it should renamed, but what?

True The Vote ! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back in the day it was home to floating whore
> houses. restore that first. I used to fish a deep
> spot back there, guess that was the gravel pit.
> The Dyke Marsh is a hook up spot for fags, never
> seen any dykes there, maybe it should renamed, but
> what?

You're the expert.

That's nothing compared to the 10 year plan for Afghanistan, 400 billion over the next decade, plus 600 million for some shitty Italian planes too dangerous to fly, So tell me again why we shouldn't spend 27 million on something I will actually be able see and touch with my tax money.

cant give it away quick enough Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's nothing compared to the 10 year plan for
> Afghanistan, 400 billion over the next decade,
> plus 600 million for some shitty Italian planes
> too dangerous to fly, So tell me again why we
> shouldn't spend 27 million on something I will
> actually be able see and touch with my tax money.


Yawn.

No need to worry about the condition of the Marina and ramp.

They plan to close that too at some point soon. I'm surprised that it survived the last attempt.

So the place would be deserted, a place to dump bodies and a "Haven" for criminals to deal drugs.

And the swamp fill in : Great breeding farm for skeeters and West Nile Virus.

That will be great for everyone living down that way.

Leave it be as it tis. And the fill in will kill loads of critters already there. Idiots.

And all the garbage that floats down the river from Md up river and DC will still be floating down the river clogging the place up.

And the thousands that now use the place will be out of luck.

If Mark Warner has anything to do with this stupid plan Im finished with supporting him.
Attachments:

Sediment will fill it in within 5 years. How many acres is this project? For that price im going to guess a few thousand but in reality it will probably be around 15.

Gerry will need to buy hip waders when he trolls for cock at Dyke marsh. Blame Obama for this one.

Wow Great Crime Central Station Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So the place would be deserted, a place to dump
> bodies and a "Haven" for criminals to deal drugs.
>
>
> And the swamp fill in : Great breeding farm for
> skeeters and West Nile Virus.
>
> That will be great for everyone living down that
> way.
>
> Leave it be as it tis. And the fill in will kill
> loads of critters already there. Idiots.
>
> And all the garbage that floats down the river
> from Md up river and DC will still be floating
> down the river clogging the place up.
>
> And the thousands that now use the place will be
> out of luck.
>
> If Mark Warner has anything to do with this stupid
> plan Im finished with supporting him.


Yep. It's one thing to set aside and try to protect some areas. Another completely delusional thing to think that you're actually going to reclaim an area like that and return it to some natural form given how much it's been changed over hundreds of years and all of the other major development around it.

Yeah, you can build a huge fucking bridge/highway project and dredge operation a some hundred yards away, have Blue Plains pumping treated water out 1/4 mile upstream, develop the whole bank and cove where National Harbor is right across the river, and re-do the flood control for Huntington Creek again for the 5th or 6h time... but you're going to reclaim Dykes Marsh. lmao

This project was mandated by Congress in 1974 so it is not a plan that was just dredged up. The following article suggests that some funding will come from the FAA since the wetlands were disturbed by construction of a runway at National Airport. Private donations may also be sought.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/metro/urban-jungle/pages/130702.html

Private donations fine, Public money NO.

WASTEFULL GOVT SPENDING

Its A WASTE of Money Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Private donations fine, Public money NO.
>
> WASTEFULL GOVT SPENDING

Try reading the work of conservative, Nobel prize-winning economists such as Ronald Coase and Gary Becker. Neither was a fan of big government, but they did understand externalities.

You are A WASTE of Oxygen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its A WASTE of Money Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Private donations fine, Public money NO.
> >
> > WASTEFULL GOVT SPENDING
>
> Try reading the work of conservative, Nobel
> prize-winning economists such as Ronald Coase and
> Gary Becker. Neither was a fan of big government,
> but they did understand externalities.


You may have read Coase and Becker, but you certainly did not understand them. Their writings are hardly applicable here and you certainly haven't demonstrated that they are.

Only a Bureaucrat or a Idiot could like this plan to fill in this area and close the wonderfull marina.

Thousands of people enjoy this place and the majority dont even have a boat.

Mandated huh?? In ancient times 1974 40 years ago. Thats the problem with Mandates, they may start with good intentions and end up with garbage that only Bureaucrats and idiots would like.

A Total Waste. Fix the Marina, use the rest of the money for other NEEDED NPS Projects.
Attachments:

talk about an O2 thief.... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are A WASTE of Oxygen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Its A WASTE of Money Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Private donations fine, Public money NO.
> > >
> > > WASTEFULL GOVT SPENDING
> >
> > Try reading the work of conservative, Nobel
> > prize-winning economists such as Ronald Coase
> and
> > Gary Becker. Neither was a fan of big
> government,
> > but they did understand externalities.
>
>
> You may have read Coase and Becker, but you
> certainly did not understand them. Their writings
> are hardly applicable here and you certainly
> haven't demonstrated that they are.

The National Park Service has a legal right not to have its property despoiled. If said property is damaged during construction of a runway, the airports authority is liable for the damages. This has nothing to do with government waste. It has everything to do with sending the right signals and utilizing resources efficiently. (Even your hero Hayek knew this.)

The last airport job was extending the run off to the north into the area where the boat ramp at NPS Gravely Point is. That was back in the 80's This Belle Haven area is 7 miles to the south. The area was dredged from the late 20's to the 60's. The NPS did not even get the area until 1973. It was private property before that.

"Right Signals" Is that what your Bong is putting out??

Filling in holes in the river with landfill to attract mosquitoes. Stop smoking that shit . Its turning your brain into swampland.

Leave that place alone Waste Monkey's of the almighty dollar.

I agree with the Nat. Harbor, WW bridge and Blue plains plant nearby. A moronic idea. Money best spent elsewhere in the NPS.

On the other hand a enlarged swamp might have a use. Filtering out the used rubbers in the swamp reeds that come off DC's streets and the Blue Plains Plant when the overflow comes with too much rain.. 27 Mil.. What the Hell..

Dyke Marsh is a wildlife preserve managed by the National Park Service. Currently at about 380 acres, the marsh is the largest remaining freshwater tidal wetlands in the Baltimore-Washington area. The marsh was some 650 acres in the 1960's, but due to dredging operations and their unmitigated erosional effects, the marsh has been losing 6 to 8 feet of its Potomac shoreline each year. Dyke Marsh was one of 25 endangered shorelines that received preservation and restoration funding from the Department of the Interior in the wake of Hurricane Sandy.

A Few Actual Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dyke Marsh is a wildlife preserve managed by the
> National Park Service. Currently at about 380
> acres, the marsh is the largest remaining
> freshwater tidal wetlands in the
> Baltimore-Washington area.


What? No, it's not the "largest remaining freshwater tidal wetlands in the Baltimore-Washington area." That's ridiculous. Somebody is counting things in some completely skewed way to get to that. 380 acres is the size of the entire park, not just the marsh area. The marsh just down the river at Mason Neck is much larger.


> The marsh was some 650
> acres in the 1960's, but due to dredging
> operations and their unmitigated erosional
> effects, the marsh has been losing 6 to 8 feet of
> its Potomac shoreline each year.


Again, somebody's playing fast and loose with their numbers. I've been fishing around there since the early 70s. It's not changed in any significant way as far as shoreline goes. If anything, there's more marsh now.


> Dyke Marsh was
> one of 25 endangered shorelines that received
> preservation and restoration funding from the
> Department of the Interior in the wake of
> Hurricane Sandy.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with Hurricane Sandy and stands as yet another example of how idiotic projects like this get rolled into other bills.

>Currently at about 380 acres, the marsh is the largest remaining freshwater tidal wetlands in the Baltimore-Washington area.

And What about Mattawoman in Charles Co Md. Its huge compared to Dyke Marsh. As said Mason Neck also, Nanjemoy Creek , plus plenty of other large marshes.
Broad Creek, Pine Park, Gum Springs,Accotink and Pohick bay, Mason Neck.All in this area.

I agree there has been erosion, On the islands near the marina there were trees at the end to the north, Yes Hurricane Isabelle took some down.

It is galling to see the federal government wanting to spend 27 million dollars on this marsh when they will not spend a dime to do anything with the marina that thousands of people enjoy.

The marina needs to stay and be improved providing dry storage, wet slips, a boat ramp ,and the sailing school area and boat basin.

The marina and boat basin and its approach from the river should be dregded and the fill put in the marsh.

President H.W.Bush fished the Belle Haven area and boat basin area with guide Ken Penrod in the early 90's or late 80's. As such the area has historic precedent. If Bill Clinton or Obama as President fished there they would not even think about closing it and filling it in.

More like Actual BS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What? No, it's not the "largest remaining
> freshwater tidal wetlands in the
> Baltimore-Washington area." That's ridiculous.
> Somebody is counting things in some completely
> skewed way to get to that. 380 acres is the size
> of the entire park, not just the marsh area. The
> marsh just down the river at Mason Neck is much
> larger.

> Again, somebody's playing fast and loose with
> their numbers. I've been fishing around there
> since the early 70s. It's not changed in any
> significant way as far as shoreline goes. If
> anything, there's more marsh now.

Oh, so you've been fishing there. You know, I think I'll go with the word of actual surveyors instead. But you can check you work with wikipedia, the NPS, or Friends of Dyke Marsh if you want. They all say you are wrong.

> Which has absolutely nothing to do with Hurricane
> Sandy and stands as yet another example of how
> idiotic projects like this get rolled into other
> bills.

More stupid on display here. Hurricane Sandy underscored the importance of protecting shorelines and marshes. The subsequent legislation that you have no clue about made funding available for restoration and protection of threatened and eroding shorelines. From 94 applicants in this round, Dyke Marsh was one of 25 projects selected. Those are a few actual facts. You're just another yammering moron.

Fair Is Fair With Taxpayers $$ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And What about Mattawoman in Charles Co Md. Its
> huge compared to Dyke Marsh. As said Mason Neck
> also, Nanjemoy Creek , plus plenty of other large
> marshes. Broad Creek, Pine Park, Gum Springs,Accotink and
> Pohick bay, Mason Neck.All in this area.

Reading is fundamental. Try again -- freshwater tidal wetlands. It's just three words. Shouldn't be all that difficult.

> It is galling to see the federal government
> wanting to spend 27 million dollars on this marsh
> when they will not spend a dime to do anything
> with the marina that thousands of people enjoy.

Hello? Congress acted to protect and restore eroding shorelines, not marinas. Again, that should not be difficult to comprehend.

> The marina needs to stay and be improved providing
> dry storage, wet slips, a boat ramp ,and the
> sailing school area and boat basin.

NIMBY-boy is whining.

> The marina and boat basin and its approach from
> the river should be dregded and the fill put in
> the marsh.

That's what was done in the 60's and 70's. That's part of the problem.

> President H.W.Bush fished the Belle Haven area and
> boat basin area with guide Ken Penrod in the early
> 90's or late 80's. As such the area has historic
> precedent. If Bill Clinton or Obama as President
> fished there they would not even think about
> closing it and filling it in.

Get a clue, dumbo.

When Penrod took Bush Sr.fishing, the river was acting up, windy, whitecaps, cold, The President told Ken this would be a nice day in Maine, lets go fishing.

A Few More Actual Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More like Actual BS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What? No, it's not the "largest remaining
> > freshwater tidal wetlands in the
> > Baltimore-Washington area." That's ridiculous.
>
> > Somebody is counting things in some completely
> > skewed way to get to that. 380 acres is the
> size
> > of the entire park, not just the marsh area.
> The
> > marsh just down the river at Mason Neck is much
> > larger.
>
> > Again, somebody's playing fast and loose with
> > their numbers. I've been fishing around there
> > since the early 70s. It's not changed in any
> > significant way as far as shoreline goes. If
> > anything, there's more marsh now.
>
> Oh, so you've been fishing there. You know, I
> think I'll go with the word of actual surveyors
> instead. But you can check you work with
> wikipedia, the NPS, or Friends of Dyke Marsh if
> you want. They all say you are wrong.
>


Let's see the actual survey data then. I'm sure that it exists in detailed form since they inventory wetlands as well as do similar assessments of the status of park lands. As I said, Dykes Marsh just isn't that large if you count "freshwater tidal marshland" on an apples-to-apples basis compared to other very similar areas. Which is fairly obvious to anyone who's actually been up and down the river as well as on the freshwater tidal areas elsewhere in this area versus just reading Wiki. It might meet some definition of the largest tidal wetland *in the NPS inventory* in the area or some other more qualified definition. It definitely is not otherwise.

Likewise, there's no way that it's lost that much shoreline over any length of time without some creative counting on someone's part. Things have changed in various ways over the years but not nearly to that extent. They're likely counting some other larger, single-event reductions like floods and averaging that over time and/or not counting shifting and re-deposition in other areas (natural events btw).

And I'll take my first-hand observation versus what somebody, often with particular interests, writes in Wiki. As the other guy said above, there have been various changes as a result of storms, etc., and likely some relatively minor erosion due to boat traffic but that's what happens on a river like this and you're not going to isolate Dykes Marsh from that regardless what you do. I can say for sure that there are any number of known hard fixed spots which don't move at various locations around that area (sunken barges, brick piles, points, deeper holes, cuts between the islands, etc.) where I and other people regularly fish that have not changed relative to shoreline in any significantly way over the years. They're still where they were 20 years ago and the shoreline still is where it was relative to them.


> > Which has absolutely nothing to do with
> Hurricane
> > Sandy and stands as yet another example of how
> > idiotic projects like this get rolled into
> other
> > bills.
>
> More stupid on display here. Hurricane Sandy
> underscored the importance of protecting
> shorelines and marshes. The subsequent
> legislation that you have no clue about made
> funding available for restoration and protection
> of threatened and eroding shorelines. From 94
> applicants in this round, Dyke Marsh was one of 25
> projects selected. Those are a few actual facts.
> You're just another yammering moron.


BS. If anything that would be related to *COASTAL* shorelines, barrier islands and related marshlands with respect to storm surge, not to ANY tidal wetlands anywhere. They used it as a way to fund projects that were on the table for other reasons independent of Sandy or similar concerns, many of which reflect politics as much as anything else. Pretending otherwise just shows that you're the one who has no clue about how such things work in the real world.

You're an ignorant and uninformed clod who can't even spell Dyke Marsh properly. Go do some research. Learn how absolutely wrong you are. You can contact Friends of Dyke Marsh here...

http://fodm.org/

One Last Actual Fact Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're an ignorant and uninformed clod who can't
> even spell Dyke Marsh properly. Go do some
> research. Learn how absolutely wrong you are.
> You can contact Friends of Dyke Marsh here...
>
> http://fodm.org/


Actually you're the one who appears to be ignorant in this case and posting some unsourced info from Wiki, a link to the primary group of advocates for the cause (which doesn't even support what you'd posted in any real way beyond repeating it), and claiming that it's somehow justified simply because it was funded through the Hurricane Sandy relief, doesn't really help your case any.

Provide the sourced basis for the claims that:

> the marsh is the largest remaining
> freshwater tidal wetlands in the
> Baltimore-Washington area.

and that:

> the marsh has been losing 6 to 8 feet of
> its Potomac shoreline each year.

As I said it's obvious to anyone who's familiar with the area neither appear to be correct as stated. I can virtually guarantee that, as is typical in such cases, that somebody has distorted some information somewhere along the line so that it favors their advocated position. In addition to actually being out there both land- and water-sides over a long period of time, I also have a degree in biology which given where I went to school dealt quite a bit with coastal environments. I've also directly participated in such studies and project evaluation/selection. So I do have some better than passing basis for saying so.

If I had to guess as far as the latter is concerned, they've probably taken the data from an erosion study done at some point which typically measures erosion in units of cm/year of surface area averaged over some years and aggregated that to give the impression of 6-8 linear feet/yr of retreat in an effort to make it appear more significant. They've also likely not accounted for deposition/sedimentation on the other side of the equation in presenting that number. If you actually look at the FODM site which you reference, then you'll find note of a current study to that very point which indicates that the balance of that erosion/deposition isn't entirely known to even properly make the claim as it was presented (actually counter to in some respects).

Quote

Research on Sediment Dynamics in Dyke Marsh

Many of us have wondered, "Is the marsh growing or shrinking? Is it being rebuilt by the river, or are we losing it to erosion?" To provide some answers to these questions, research in the gain and loss of sediments in the marsh has been undertaken by Cindy Palinkas and David Walters of the Horn Point Laboratory of the University of Maryland Center for Environmental Science in Cambridge, MD, in cooperation with the National Park Service, building on earlier work by Katia Engelhardt. They reported their work in a poster paper at a recent conference of the American Geophysical Union. The goal of their study is more modest than predicting the ultimate fate of the marsh: "to better understand the spatial and temporal variability in sedimentary processes in a freshwater tidal marsh." There are competing effects at work in setting the level of the marsh relative to the river. The Potomac always carries a burden of sediment, which is greatly enhanced following heavy rain upstream. Two daily incoming tides flood parts of the marsh, and some of the river-borne sediment is left behind in those areas.

...This research by Palinkas and Walters is not yet complete. Also, the sediment results vary considerably from place to place in the marsh. For those reasons, it is not yet possible to draw any firm conclusions about gain and loss over the whole marsh. Reading their report, however, suggests that while the marsh is generally gaining in deposited sediments, it may nonetheless be losing to subsidence.

Which reclaiming old areas won't help and largely is unrelated to any "climate change"/Hurricane Sandy-type justifications.

For the record, as I'd said above, I'm not somehow against trying to preserve such areas and I'm very familiar with this area and the FODM and generally support their and other such efforts. What I don't support are pointless wastes of large amounts of money to do some pseudo-"natural" reclamation of a place that's subject to so many other significant external influences as this is. This project wasn't funded based on merit so much as it was on the basis of a group being a very squeaky wheel which has successfully pestered local politicians and the NPS into doing what they want with the area.

You're an asshole. Go fuck yourself.

Much of Washington dc was a swamp also, maybe it should be restored back to its natural state.

True The Vote ! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Much of Washington dc was a swamp also, maybe it
> should be restored back to its natural state.

Was there ever a time when you weren't as dumb as a stick? On second thought, never mind. You're plainly too dumb to remember even if there were.

Another Fact Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're an asshole. Go fuck yourself.


Brilliant point.

Angry?

arrrghhhh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brilliant point.

Hardly. It's inescapable. The waste-of-time asshole has refused to accept the authoritative and 180-degree contradictory evidence that he is surrounded by. Takes a really big asshole to claim that he's right and the whole rest of the world is wrong. Especially when he can't even spell the name of the place to begin with. Fishermen are known for fish stories, and this asshole's story was a whopper.

> Angry?

No. Just correct.

True The Vote ! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back in the day it was home to floating whore
> houses. restore that first.

+1

And let this be a National Disgrace of wasted money in Oct. Nov 2014 on the behaft of assholes who are Democrats who support this waste.

A Fing Waste of Taxpayers Money on a Grand Scale., A SWAMP for Christs Sake Right Near the Blue Plains Plant. 27 million down the drain is what this is.

Here's what your swamp is only good for. A filter some of the crap out of the river.
Attachments:

>When Penrod took Bush Sr.fishing, the river was acting up, windy, whitecaps, cold, The President told Ken this would be a nice day in Maine, lets go fishing

True and they fished in the area of the boat basin to get out of the wind.

I cant remember if Ken picked President Bush up at the Wash Navy Yard out out at Belle Haven. I do remember that the Secret Service went over his boat with a fine tooth comb.And he had to be where they told him to be at 0 Dark Thirty.

Facts Are Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> arrrghhhh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Brilliant point.
>
> Hardly. It's inescapable. The waste-of-time
> asshole has refused to accept the authoritative
> and 180-degree contradictory evidence that he is
> surrounded by. Takes a really big asshole to
> claim that he's right and the whole rest of the
> world is wrong. Especially when he can't even
> spell the name of the place to begin with.
> Fishermen are known for fish stories, and this
> asshole's story was a whopper.
>
> > Angry?
>
> No. Just correct.


The minister of truth, facts and acceptable opinions has spoken.

What's it like to be so smart?

Catching people on misspelling words and such, negating their entire argument.

Asshole Sighting /LOL/ Other names. Calls people names, vulger comments. A real poster child for liberal causes.
.Facts Are Facts ()
>Just Wondering ()
>One Last Actual Fact ()
>.A Few More Actual Facts ()

On and on with BS and the Asshole is the real cut and paste expert with BS facts on each and every subjesct they post on.

You can't even spell subjects.

Boy are you really messed up and all of your ideas are s***.

Facts Are Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> arrrghhhh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Brilliant point.
>
> Hardly. It's inescapable. The waste-of-time
> asshole has refused to accept the authoritative
> and 180-degree contradictory evidence that he is
> surrounded by. Takes a really big asshole to
> claim that he's right and the whole rest of the
> world is wrong. Especially when he can't even
> spell the name of the place to begin with.
> Fishermen are known for fish stories, and this
> asshole's story was a whopper.
>
> > Angry?
>
> No. Just correct.


The "authoritative" information being an unsourced line taken from Wiki and a link to FODM - the primary proponents for the project. lol

You made the claim above:

> the marsh is the largest remaining
> freshwater tidal wetlands in the
> Baltimore-Washington area.

It is not. What the NPS site actually says is:

"Dyke Marsh is *** ONE OF *** the largest remaining freshwater tidal wetlands in the Washington metropolitan area."

http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/planyourvisit/dykemarsh.htm

Typical incorrect Wiki-sourced crap.

Although really not worth getting into in detail given the above, there are any number of larger freshwater tidal wetlands/marsh areas in the region.

Dyke Marsh is 380 or 485 total acres (depending on source) with less than 60 acres of tidal marsh.

Mason Neck is far larger in total area and also in terms of marsh - 2,227 acres total with somewhere between 207 and 250 acres (depending on source) of tidal marsh. Even larger if you want to count all tidal "wetlands." Featherstone and Occoquan Bay in that same area also are larger.

All of which, as I said, is relatively obvious to anyone who's actually been around the river and seen these places versus some knucklehead sitting on their mom's basement searching Wiki and thinking that they're experts.

Likewise, your claim that:

> due to dredging
> operations and their unmitigated erosional
> effects, the marsh has been losing 6 to 8 feet of
> its Potomac shoreline each year.

is, as I'd correctly guessed, subject to further significant qualification. That's taken from a USPS analysis and reflects erosion in one area only (southern end) in one direction only (westward) in the area of Hog Island Gut. Rather than due to dredging operations, it appears to be due to storm-related loss of a small peninsula south of the area which protected it which happened sometime after 1989. That is not for the area overall. There has been overall loss of habitat for a variety of reasons but not at that rate overall and not all due to the effects of past dredging operations.

Unfortunately, the same poor information has been copied all over by equally lazy "expert" schlubs like you, even appearing in the summary of the justification for project for funding.

The Washington Sailing Marina next to Reagan National is in great shape compared to Belle Haven Marina and both are National Park Service owned.
You cant put a power boat in a slip at the sailing marina. So if Belle Haven is closed then the sail marina needs to be opened 50/50 to sail and power boats. Shove half of the blow boats out of there and rename the marina "The Richard M Nixon Marina" Nixon did start the EPA which started cleaning up the river.
Hey, Im handicapped and demand equal access to the river with a powerboat so I can just turn a key on. Hello Justice Dept..

Da, Komrad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The minister of truth, facts and acceptable
> opinions has spoken. What's it like to be
> so smart?

Grow up, little boy. The facts are easily found. Only assholes try to deny them.

> Catching people on misspelling words and such,
> negating their entire argument.

The asshole claims a long-time familiarity with the site for his having fished there for all these years and HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO SPELL IT??? Get real.

Facts Are Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Da, Komrad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The minister of truth, facts and acceptable
> > opinions has spoken. What's it like to be
> > so smart?
>
> Grow up, little boy. The facts are easily found.
> Only assholes try to deny them.
>
> > Catching people on misspelling words and such,
> > negating their entire argument.
>
> The asshole claims a long-time familiarity with
> the site for his having fished there for all these
> years and HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO SPELL IT???
> Get real.


Facts are indeed facts. As to what they say, that just depends on where you get 'em.

No need to get angry and resort to name-calling.

I Smell A Asshole In This Thread Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Asshole Sighting /LOL/ Other names. Calls people
> names, vulger comments. A real poster child for
> liberal causes.

So you have a hard time here, it sounds like. It could of course be that all those people are agents of the White House paid to come to Fairfax Underground and torment right-wing assholes. Yeah, that's your problem, I bet. By the way, it's "vulgar".

> .Facts Are Facts ()
> >Just Wondering ()
> >One Last Actual Fact ()
> >.A Few More Actual Facts ()

As far as I can recall, all of the "Facts" handles in this thread since May 28 at 11:00 PM are me. That's pretty much all the posts with actual facts in them. Pretty easy to spot.

> On and on with BS and the Asshole is the real cut
> and paste expert with BS facts on each and every
> subjesct they post on.

How long have people much smarter than you been beating your pants off anyway? Did you ever think to take that as some sort of clue?

More like Actual BS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unfortunately, the same poor information has been
> copied all over by equally lazy "expert" schlubs
> like you, even appearing in the summary of the
> justification for project for funding.

So, every credible source out there contradicts some or all of your nonsense fisherman claims, but that's because they are all lazy. Like I said, you're an asshole.

But if you think the wikipedia article misrepresents anything, register as an editor and change the page. Let us know how that works out, bozo. Keep in mind that posting original work is prohibited. The fictional crap you have posted here for instance will be sent to the bench in a heartbeat.

angrier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Facts are indeed facts. As to what they say, that
> just depends on where you get 'em. No need to get
> angry and resort to name-calling.

Facts are facts, and assholes are assholes. That's just the way of the world. Recognition of either one is an obligation for those dedicated to living an honest life.

What About Wash Sail Marina Wrote:
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> blah-blah-blah...

Like the Appalachian Trail, the marinas have exactly nothing to do with the Dyke Marsh project, except in the low-grade minds of petulant whiners.

Since Belle Haven marina has been there over 60 years, If NPS closes BHM for the marsh project, displaced power boaters must have equal access to the river. And that means 50/50 at the sail marina will be coming. The only reason power boats are not allowed at WSM is because Belle Haven marina is there.

They can hold a lottery to see who gets to keep their sailboat at WSM.
First come first served for power craft to get a slip or dry storage.

Facts Are Still Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More like Actual BS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Unfortunately, the same poor information has
> been
> > copied all over by equally lazy "expert"
> schlubs
> > like you, even appearing in the summary of the
> > justification for project for funding.
>
> So, every credible source out there contradicts
> some or all of your nonsense fisherman claims, but
> that's because they are all lazy. Like I said,
> you're an asshole.
>
> But if you think the wikipedia article
> misrepresents anything, register as an editor and
> change the page. Let us know how that works out,
> bozo. Keep in mind that posting original work is
> prohibited. The fictional crap you have posted
> here for instance will be sent to the bench in a
> heartbeat.


Now you're just being a typical FFXU moron after your bullshit was completely blown out of the water.

I corrected your "facts" above.

Rather than as you stated "...the marsh is the largest remaining freshwater tidal wetlands in the Baltimore-Washington area," the fact is that, according to the NPS which operates it, "Dyke Marsh is ONE OF the largest remaining freshwater tidal wetlands in the Washington metropolitan area."

http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/planyourvisit/dykemarsh.htm


Rather than as you stated it "...due to dredging operations and their unmitigated erosional effects, the marsh has been losing 6 to 8 feet of its Potomac shoreline each year," the fact is that, according to the USGS study on which it is based, that applies only to a small area at the southern end of the property where erosion has been most extreme in more recent years, which was selected specifically for that reason, and misrepresents the overall loss of linear shoreline when taken out of that context.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2010/1269/pdf/ofr20101269.pdf


For anyone else who's not a dumbass and actually interested in the facts regarding how the area has been affected and the general scheme for how the proposed reclamation approach might work at least with respect to rebuilding the promontory and a breakwater at the southern end, the USGS study is very good and worth a look.

Oh Yea? Not So Fast Wrote:
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> More useless blah-blah-blah...

You can address your mindless NIMBY nonsense to...

Brent Steury, Supervisory Biologist
Natural Resources Program Manager
George Washington Memorial Parkway
(703) 289-2541

More like Actual BS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now you're just being a typical FFXU moron after
> your bullshit was completely blown out of the
> water.

Again I say go fuck yourself, you worthless lying asshole.

> I corrected your "facts" above.

Horseshit. There is no material difference between "largest" and "one of the largest", particularly when "one of the largest" would only highlight the continued shrinking of Dyke Marsh via erosion that like any moron or dumbfuck you continue to deny as well. Your stupidity knows no bounds.

The fact that all 6 to 8 feet of annual erosion have occurred along exposed shoreline of Dyle Marsh goes with out saying. Except of course in the event that some colossally ignorant asshole happens to stumble along. Obviously, there has been no erosion at the inland extremes of the preserve.

> For anyone else who's not a dumbass and actually
> interested in the facts regarding how the area has
> been affected and the general scheme for how the
> proposed reclamation approach might work at least
> with respect to rebuilding the promontory and a
> breakwater at the southern end, the USGS study is
> very good and worth a look.

Oddly, its title refers to the "deconstruction" of Dyke Marsh, and it's first fucking sentence is...

"Dyke Marsh, a freshwater wetland in northern Virginia
and a migratory resource along the Atlantic Flyway, which
is used by approximately 250 species of migratory birds, is
eroding rapidly."

Asshole.

Facts Are Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More like Actual BS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Now you're just being a typical FFXU moron
> after
> > your bullshit was completely blown out of the
> > water.
>
> Again I say go fuck yourself, you worthless lying
> asshole.
>
> > I corrected your "facts" above.
>
> Horseshit. There is no material difference
> between "largest" and "one of the largest",
> particularly when "one of the largest" would only
> highlight the continued shrinking of Dyke Marsh
> via erosion that like any moron or dumbfuck you
> continue to deny as well. Your stupidity knows no
> bounds.
>

There absolutely is a material difference between THE largest remaining of and ONE OF THE largest of which there are any number of others and which remain and are larger. As presented, it's a typical attempt by advocates to represent such areas as being unique and the last of which must be saved on that basis. Which, again, anyone actually familiar with the area versus just searching Google knew was incorrect.


> The fact that all 6 to 8 feet of annual erosion
> have occurred along exposed shoreline of Dyle
> Marsh goes with out saying. Except of course in
> the event that some colossally ignorant asshole
> happens to stumble along. Obviously, there has
> been no erosion at the inland extremes of the
> preserve.


There has not been that extent of erosion along other exposed shoreline areas either. Presenting it out of context and omitting relevant details as done here is a typical attempt by advocates to make the problem appear greater than it is. Not that there's not a problem, my only argument was with the rate and extent as it was presented. Which again to anyone who's familiar with the area knew was incorrect.

>
> > For anyone else who's not a dumbass and
> actually
> > interested in the facts regarding how the area
> has
> > been affected and the general scheme for how
> the
> > proposed reclamation approach might work at
> least
> > with respect to rebuilding the promontory and a
> > breakwater at the southern end, the USGS study
> is
> > very good and worth a look.
>
> Oddly, its title refers to the "deconstruction" of
> Dyke Marsh, and it's first fucking sentence is...
>
> "Dyke Marsh, a freshwater wetland in northern
> Virginia
> and a migratory resource along the Atlantic
> Flyway, which
> is used by approximately 250 species of migratory
> birds, is
> eroding rapidly."
>
> Asshole.


Which neither addresses the relative size/status or the rate of erosion which were the points in question.

More like Actual BS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There absolutely is a material difference between
> THE largest remaining of and ONE OF THE largest of
> which there are any number of others and which
> remain and are larger. As presented, it's a
> typical attempt by advocates to represent such
> areas as being unique and the last of which must
> be saved on that basis. Which, again, anyone
> actually familiar with the area versus just
> searching Google knew was incorrect.

More pure and desperately diversionary horseshit, you stupid asshole fisherman. The ecological value and importance of Dyke Marsh does not at all hinge on your petty semantics. Whether it is now or (thanks to erosion) only recently was the largest freshwater tidal wetlands in the Baltimore-Washington area is not fucking material. You are an idiot and an asshole!

> There has not been that extent of erosion along
> other exposed shoreline areas either. Presenting
> it out of context and omitting relevant details as
> done here is a typical attempt by advocates to
> make the problem appear greater than it is. Not
> that there's not a problem, my only argument was
> with the rate and extent as it was presented.
> Which again to anyone who's familiar with the area
> knew was incorrect.

Hey DUMBFUCK!!! Just like ALL the other ones, your own fucking source indicates in strong terms that Dyke Marsh is ERODING RAPIDLY and suffering from DECONSTRUCTION. Are these plain English words simply too complicated for you? I say again, go fuck yourself, asshole. You are a worthless ignorant lying blockhead, dweeb, and toady and nothing more.

23 mil for this as a grant for damage from Hurricane Sandy?? What a tree or two went down.. A farce and theres still people in N.J and N.Y that lost big and have not got jack in aid.

23 million dollar swamp..Near Blue Plains sewage plant! Brainless

As John Wilkes Booth said as he looked at his limp hands and arms after being shot in the neck.

Useless! Useless!

16 trillion in DEBT and this is the kind of mindless wastefull leadership we get from the DemocRATS.

More Waste From Obama Wrote:
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> 23 mil for this as a grant for damage from
> Hurricane Sandy?? What a tree or two went down.. A
> farce and theres still people in N.J and N.Y that
> lost big and have not got jack in aid.
>
> 23 million dollar swamp..Near Blue Plains sewage
> plant! Brainless
>
> As John Wilkes Booth said as he looked at his limp
> hands and arms after being shot in the neck.
>
> Useless! Useless!
>
> 16 trillion in DEBT and this is the kind of
> mindless wastefull leadership we get from the
> DemocRATS.

Other than the fact that Gerald Ford was president when the project was passed, you are spot on.

More Waste From Obama Wrote:
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> 23 mil for this as a grant for damage from
> Hurricane Sandy??

No. The program is to act on lessons learned from Sandy concerning the importance of marshes and wetlands in absorbing the energy of hurricane-driven storm surges. Doesn't seem like you got the memo.

> 23 million dollar swamp..Near Blue Plains sewage
> plant! Brainless

You think sewage plants manufacture sewage, don't you.

> 16 trillion in DEBT and this is the kind of
> mindless wastefull leadership we get from the
> DemocRATS.

Dude, we've been running up the debt since 1836. We will never repay it. Never. Neither will any of the other major world economies that are carrying debt, which is ALL OF THEM.

>Other than the fact that Gerald Ford was president when the project was passed, you are spot on.

True in 1974 But I dont think they had a clue something this stupid and wastefull was going to occur.

> 16 trillion in DEBT and this is the kind of
mindless wastefull leadership we get from the
DemocRATS.

To Pass on to our youth, a legacy of waste hate and abuse from the DemocRATS

Facts Are Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> More pure and desperately diversionary horseshit,
> you stupid asshole fisherman. The ecological
> value and importance of Dyke Marsh does not at all
> hinge on your petty semantics. Whether it is now
> or (thanks to erosion) only recently was the
> largest freshwater tidal wetlands in the
> Baltimore-Washington area is not fucking material.
> You are an idiot and an asshole!


Actually for purposes of this discussion it does since the relative size rather than ecological significance was the specific point being questioned.

You got it wrong. I and others who weren't relying on Google knew you had it wrong which is why I/they called you on it. Sorry.

And it wasn't even the largest until recently by any reasonable definition of recent. The estimate of the extent of tidal wetlands there as of the reported peak in 1937 was 184 acres. Which still is smaller than, for example, Mason Neck at 207/250 depending on source even with erosion there as well.

Furthermore, if you really want to get more particular about it, most of the reduction in total area over the years was not due to erosion primarily but rather due to direct removal by the mining/dredging operation itself which took it from the 184 acres in 1937 to 83 at the time mining ended in the early 1970s. Most of which happened during a period of heavy activity between 1959 and 1972 (see Figure 4 on page 6 of the USGS report). The reduction in size since attributable purely to resulting erosion following that period would be from that 83 to the approximately 60 acres today.


>
> Hey DUMBFUCK!!! Just like ALL the other ones, your
> own fucking source indicates in strong terms that
> Dyke Marsh is ERODING RAPIDLY and suffering from
> DECONSTRUCTION. Are these plain English words
> simply too complicated for you? I say again, go
> fuck yourself, asshole. You are a worthless
> ignorant lying blockhead, dweeb, and toady and
> nothing more.


As above, whether it is eroding wasn't the question. It was the presentation of the rate of erosion which was, again correctly, questioned.

I'm sorry that your butt hurts.

http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/naturescience/dykemarsh.htm


Read "one" of the largest. >Facts Are Facts () ASSWIPE LIAR

Wiki has it right also. "snicker"

watergate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Other than the fact that Gerald Ford was president
> when the project was passed, you are spot on.

Under terms of a 1959 federal land trade agreement, the Dyke Marsh parcel was acquired through cession by the National Park Service. But there was a precedent sand and gravel dredge mining agreement in effect. Such operations had finally ended by 1974, when Congress mandated that the parcel be restored. They didn't provide any funds however, and NPS had no way to approach the problem until it could determine the extent of geological damage and instabilty that had been introduced. Subsequent studies by experts (not fishermen) have revealed that the damage is both severe and continuing at high rates (an average of 6 to 8 feet of erosion per year), principally owing to the surge effects of tropical storms in summer and nor'easters in winter. Without intervention, the lifespan of the marsh was put at 20 years. The current funding came from appropriations made under the administration's Hurricane Sandy Rebuilding Strategy and Climate Action Plan. It will permit an already developed draft plan to be implemented within the Dyke Marsh parcel, meaning that it now can be restored whole as a premier freshwater wetland within federal lands in the Washington, D.C. metro area.

Yea Yea Yea Wrote:
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> To Pass on to our youth, a legacy of waste hate
> and abuse from the DemocRATS

Get a grip, dorko. We have always funded our way through wars and depressions by turning to debt. The nation itself was born of debt. The debt at the end of WWII was 120% of GDP. Today, it is about 103%. Would have been quite a bit lower if not for the borrow-and-spend insanity of Reagan and the two Bushs. The so-called "Greatest Generation" meanwhile didn't pay back the debt they ran up, and you are not paying it back either. There is nothing different in store for these "youth" that you seem so concerned over.

More like Actual BS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sorry that your butt hurts.

My butt is fine, loser. Yours has been kicked halfway across the country. Your own (and all other) sources call you a liar. Stupid asshole fisherman.

Your Right Ass Fact is Wrong Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Read "one" of the largest. >Facts Are Facts ()
> ASSWIPE LIAR Wiki has it right also.

Riding to your own rescue? What a FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!

Your exaggeration proves Your A LIAR. Typical DemoRAT Response

Exaggerate any situation and LIE

http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/naturescience/dykemarsh.htm


"The" Largest swamp what a lie.

And WW2 was paid for in a large part with War Bonds which were paid off after the war and thats where that end of WW2 debt was.

NO ONES PAYING OFF THIS DEBT THIS 23 MILLION DOLLAR WASTE Its LEFT FOR THE YOUNG BY DemocRATS WHO HAVE BEEN SPENDING WILDLY SINCE OBAMA TOOK OFFICE

YES Facts are Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your exaggeration proves Your A LIAR. Typical
> DemoRAT Response

Third-grader, eh?

> "The" Largest swamp what a lie.

True now, then, or never, it's not material, The point was to establish for total asswipes like you and the OP that Dyke Marsh is a significant ecological resource long and more than worthy of a paltry $25 million is restoration funding.

> And WW2 was paid for in a large part with War
> Bonds which were paid off after the war and thats
> where that end of WW2 debt was.

Moron. Bonds are evidence of borrowing. Want to know how those bonds were repaid when they cam due? MORE FUCKING BORROWING. The old debt was rolled over into new debt. Excatly what is done today.

> NO ONES PAYING OFF THIS DEBT THIS 23 MILLION
> DOLLAR WASTE Its LEFT FOR THE YOUNG BY DemocRATS
> WHO HAVE BEEN SPENDING WILDLY SINCE OBAMA TOOK
> OFFICE

If you knew anything at all about federal finances, you would know that the real spending curve is about in line with established trends since 1960. What's gone off track and created debt has been receipts. Those were gutted by Reagan, but Clinton managed to right the ship and pick up the pieces. Then fucking Bush-43 came along with his moron Tax Cuts for the Rich plus two recessions, one of which was on so colossal a scale that we STILL aren't fully recovered from it. Spending simply isn't the problem here, no matter what defensive right-wing asshats try to tell you.

Facts Are Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More like Actual BS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm sorry that your butt hurts.
>
> My butt is fine, loser. Yours has been kicked
> halfway across the country. Your own (and all
> other) sources call you a liar. Stupid asshole
> fisherman.





At your pitiful ass.

YES Facts are Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> NO ONES PAYING OFF THIS DEBT THIS 23 MILLION
> DOLLAR WASTE Its LEFT FOR THE YOUNG BY DemocRATS
> WHO HAVE BEEN SPENDING WILDLY SINCE OBAMA TOOK
> OFFICE


You mean 27 million dollar waste.

Get it right. ;)

More like Actual BS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At your pitiful ass.

You've got nothing left, loser. Your own sources brand you as an asshole. Fisherman doesn't know a spinner from a spoon. Just another internet asswipe.
.
Attachments:

Facts Are Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More like Actual BS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > At your pitiful ass.
>
> You've got nothing left, loser. Your own sources
> brand you as an asshole. Fisherman doesn't know a
> spinner from a spoon. Just another internet
> asswipe.
> .


Try some. Really... It will make it feel better.

The money has been provided by a grant back in 2013.
Just 23 or 27 million. Feds will go thru that in about 10 minutes
But its still a waste considering where Blue Plains is at and Nat Harbor.

All in all I could care less about filling the marsh except its 27 million and the NPS has done nothing for Belle Haven but has Washington Sailing Marina looking like a shiny penny. I will miss the islands out there and the channels around them to kayak in.

Its going to be coming. Will have to see what they plan to do with the marina. Thats when the shit will really start to fly if they try to close it.
If they fix it up that would be great. A win win a fix for the marsh and marina.

More like Actual BS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Try some. Really... It will make it feel better.

You've been shamed here, asshole. Take it like a man rather than making your situation even worse.

Its A Done Wastefull Deal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The money has been provided by a grant back in
> 2013. Just 23 or 27 million. Feds will go thru
> that in about 10 minutes.

I'm sure your an expert in financial analysis, even if you don't realize that "wasteful" has just the one "L" at the end.

> But its still a waste considering where Blue
> Plains is at and Nat Harbor.

Again, why do you think either of those would be a factor? Go ahead. Show us how dumb you are.

> All in all I could care less about filling the marsh...

LOL!

> ...except its 27 million and the NPS has done
> nothing for Belle Haven but has Washington Sailing
> Marina looking like a shiny penny. I will miss the
> islands out there and the channels around them to
> kayak in.

> Its going to be coming. Will have to see what they
> plan to do with the marina. Thats when the shit
> will really start to fly if they try to close it.
> If they fix it up that would be great. A win win a
> fix for the marsh and marina.

Special interest leeches have been whining about the marina for decades. Some years you get funding for improvements, some years you don't. It's not like it's food stamps or hurricane relief that people actually depend on.

Facts Are Facvts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More like Actual BS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Try some. Really... It will make it feel
> better.
>
> You've been shamed here, asshole. Take it like a
> man rather than making your situation even worse.


Oh yeah, that's what happened. lol

You should change your name to "The Black Knight."



Later Stumpy.

>Again, why do you think either of those would be a factor?

Actually a plus. All the run off overflow from Blue Plains after a heavy rain will be filtered by this enlarged swamp. So the lower Potomac below the swamp will be much cleaner. You know of those white rubber objects.And brown Sea Trout. Actually 27 million for a decent river filter is a great idea. Blue Plains is a billion $ + project and needs more attention yet so that why this swamp project was probably approved


>Special interest leeches have been whining about the marina for decades

You of course are speaking about Friends of Dyke Marsh. AKA Johnny come lately as usual to the area. The marina has been there over 60 years and has co-existed with wildlife the entire time.

And now I bid you good day.

Thats what I walked from the rear of the haul road to the front chain, at least 3400 feet X 2 thats about a mile and a quarter down and back. Thats enough for a pleasant stroll and a reason theres people in there with safety in numbers. As You walk along through the forest suddenly you come to clearings like magic openings looking at the river. The trail has been fixed up with a sandy surface instead of the mud. A very nice walk and view with the wood walkway at the end above the area about 5 ft for a nice view of the islands and river and Capitol in the far background. Now how is that going to change with these massive enlargements. Looking at marsh alone.. and much farther to walk. few will be out there, and kayakers will have to go out to the main river in rough waters and then what.. No Thanks, keep the haul road like it is with the view the islands and channels and fill it in to the south of there out to the river more. The islands can be rip rapped to keep out the erosion. But def keep them.and the channels for the canoes and kayakers to get out of the rough river.And the marina too.

More like Delusional BS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh yeah, that's what happened. lol

Yes, that's what happened. Your own sources (and all the other ones as well) simply branded you a know-nothing loser asshole.

> Later Stumpy.

Crawl away in shame as you should. Just another lying internet dumbfuck.

Never Considered the Advantages Wrote:
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> Actually a plus.

Of course it's a plus. That's why its rapid erosion has been a concern. Tidal wetlands absorb energy from storm surges, filter run-off that streams bring into them, and provide habitat for all sorts of wildlife. The so-so proximity of Blue Plains and National Harbor are irrelevant, as you've now seemingly conceded.

> You of course are speaking about Friends of Dyke
> Marsh. AKA Johnny come lately as usual to the
> area. The marina has been there over 60 years and
> has co-existed with wildlife the entire time.

Dyke Marsh has been there for more than 500 years. Your marina is a latter-day man-made resource maintained for the benefit of toy-boaters. Dyke Marsh is a pre-Columbian natural resource that works to the benefit of all of us.

1700 Steps Wrote:
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> Thats what I walked from the rear of the haul road
> to the front chain, at least 3400 feet X 2 thats
> about a mile and a quarter down and back.

Without intervention, the effective life expectancy of the marsh is about 20 years. You'll need waders to do those 3400 feet. You do know what waders are, don't you, fisherman?

If they want to return this area to its more natural state, then they also need to reclaim the haul road which blocks the natural flow to the wetlands behind it. Also rip out all of the treated wood observation decks that they built out there like they did with the old blinds. But then the yuppie Mt. Vernon birdbrains would have to get their Birkenstocks and carbon fiber Gitzos muddy when they do their Sunday strolls through the park. So they don't want that.

Butthurt still chafing, eh. The natural state of Dyke Marsh today would be for it to be eroded away into oblivion. That's what people are looking to prevent, what with the ecological value that tidal wetlands provide.

For all the facts and butthurts that aren't, there isn't a great deal of solid information on this thread for those of us who aren't following the Dyke March debate to know WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON HERE. So let's start with a few basic questions for those of us who don't want to google it ourselves:

1) Aside from being geographically close, what does Belle Haven Marina have to do with Dyke Marsh? Is closing the marina currently part of the plan for the marsh restoration? Is it an additional action under consideration? If so who will be making the decision?

2) Just what is the $27M being spent on? Is it simply the cost of acquiring, hauling in and placing materials into the river? Does it also include measures to re-establish vegetation? Does it include additional fluff to pay for people who are not actually providing the materials, equipment or labor to do the restoration work?

3) What kind of material are we talking about using to restore the marsh? Where is it being obtained from? Is it consistent with what is there or what would have been there if we had not mined the area? Where is the material coming from? Would removing the material for the marsh have adverse environmental consequences for the source area?

4) Presumably the flora and fauna have to a certain extent adapted to the changes that have occurred to the marsh? What steps are being taken to minimize damage the restoration may cause to what is still there?

5) Funny thing about erosion is that it does not necessarily stop because we dump a bunch of dirt and rocks in. What makes us think this would provide a permanent fix to the problem rather than simply turning the clock back a few years? If it is a temporary fix, how long is this money buying us?

Just say it's for the children and everything will be ok with the spending.

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For all the facts and butthurts that aren't, there
> isn't a great deal of solid information on this
> thread for those of us who aren't following the
> Dyke March debate to know WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON
> HERE. So let's start with a few basic questions
> for those of us who don't want to google it
> ourselves:
>
> 1) Aside from being geographically close, what
> does Belle Haven Marina have to do with Dyke
> Marsh? Is closing the marina currently part of
> the plan for the marsh restoration? Is it an
> additional action under consideration? If so who
> will be making the decision?

Very long story. The shortest version that I can give you is as follows.

The marina is within the same park service property, just upstream and adjacent to the marsh. It's on public land but privately operated under a concession from the NPS. Earlier that was on a long-term basis, more recently operating year-to-year. It's been on shaky ground for a long time due to money issues and those who cite variety of negative effects on the marsh. On the other side, it has lots of public support since there are very few places to launch/store boats on the VA side of the Potomac and it's the only one in that area. Due to the continued controversy and budget issues, repairs have not been made to it over many years. As of last I saw it, estimates were in the range of $2 million needed.

It isn't so much a case of (many at least, there are some) calling for the marina to be removed. At least as I last knew it, the FODM, which is the primary advocacy group for the marsh, has taken the position that the marina should be permitted to operate with as little impact as possible but not be improved/enlarged. Which was a smart strategy on their part since that avoided a lot of what would have been more direct warfare between it and the various marina supporters and they know that they'll likely win through attrition anyway. Boaters don't have anything against the marsh, most are generally supportive I'd say, they just don't have many alternatives otherwise. The NPS has been kind of neither here nor there on it. Generally, it's recognized the reality and supported mixed use but I'd say that it's tended to lean more to the marsh side as a result of that being more within their primary mission versus operating a recreational boating facility and a mandate to preserve/restore it (as below).

What complicates all of this is that the dredging/mining, marina construction, etc., was done legally at the time with approvals pre-dating the NPS acquisition of the property. The area wasn't originally deemed to be anything particularly special. Shortly after it entered the NPS inventory, it then immediately became something special on that basis with proponents citing its natural/ecological value and what they thought that they were getting through the swap versus what happened to it. So, shortly thereafter, a restoration requirement for the area then was mandated (but not funded) by Congress. This now has been going on back and forth for probably +40 years with nothing much happening beyond smaller efforts given other priorities.

Which brings us to today where they've finally come up with a vehicle providing the money to do something more.


>
> 2) Just what is the $27M being spent on? Is it
> simply the cost of acquiring, hauling in and
> placing materials into the river? Does it also
> include measures to re-establish vegetation? Does
> it include additional fluff to pay for people who
> are not actually providing the materials,
> equipment or labor to do the restoration work?


The USGS report is one of the better single sources that describes the area, the problem, and how the approach to fixing it would work.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2010/1269/pdf/ofr20101269.pdf

The EIS and other documents re the plan are here:

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/documentsList.cfm?projectID=20293


The primary component of the protection plan is the construction of a breakwater and restoration of an original promontory which was mined away at the south end of the area. That's where most of the degradation is happening due to storm-driven wave erosion during major storms which tend to drive winds and water from that direction. There's not a lot of controversy about that part of it beyond just the usual money priority disputes. There's not much there other than a big shallow flat and the planned restoration won't affect navigation or anyone's use of the area otherwise.

Other parts include rebuilding of various areas which were removed during the mining/dredging operations which were permitted (again legally) at the time that the NPS acquired the property through a land swap. (Some of which went to support construction of the runways at National, which is why they're kicking in some money). That's more where the controversy is. In particular, among others, there's a deeper area which was dredged at the time where sailboats now are moored which would be filled in. So the sail boaters aren't happy with that part given that there aren't many places in the area to do so otherwise. Depending how it's done it also may block an area where people launch kayaks and the operate kayak and small sailboat school/rental. Also some rebuilding around some other areas which aren't much challenged.

Beyond those with more direct vested interests, some (like me) would view the effort to try to artificially rebuild something like this as kind of futile given how extensively it's been changed and how it now exists, all of the other development and impacts around it which it can't be isolated from on any practical level, and probably better places to more effectively spend that same money. There's really not much particularly unique about the area other than primarily that it just is where it is. To my understanding, it wasn't originally acquired due to its ecological significance; rather, it was just a desirable swap at the time. Advocates would argue that value, especially now since it's within the NPS, and they've been successful in doing so to push for restoration.


>
> 3) What kind of material are we talking about
> using to restore the marsh? Where is it being
> obtained from? Is it consistent with what is
> there or what would have been there if we had not
> mined the area? Where is the material coming
> from? Would removing the material for the marsh
> have adverse environmental consequences for the
> source area?


It would be from some combination of material removed by on-going dredging operations for the main river channel and material trucked in. Don't know where the latter would come from.


>
> 4) Presumably the flora and fauna have to a
> certain extent adapted to the changes that have
> occurred to the marsh? What steps are being taken
> to minimize damage the restoration may cause to
> what is still there?


You can look at the EIS and comments on the plan which address such things.

>
> 5) Funny thing about erosion is that it does not
> necessarily stop because we dump a bunch of dirt
> and rocks in. What makes us think this would
> provide a permanent fix to the problem rather than
> simply turning the clock back a few years? If it
> is a temporary fix, how long is this money buying
> us?


There's no real new ground being broken here as far as the primary measures to stop the most significant cause of erosion. The breakwater and other structures planned at the lower end of the area are standard procedure and in all likelihood would serve the purpose as designed. There is some long-term maintenance involved but relatively minimal expense in the scheme of things.

What's less certain to my mind is what you end up with from much of the other reclamation efforts, what may arise there, and the relative value. You're not going to do all of that without some unforeseen issues and impacts and it has the potential for an endless cycle of fixes and fixes to fix the fixes.

If it were up to me, I'd build the breakwater, do some partial restoration where it's most needed, and spend the rest of the money elsewhere more effectively. Call it good and fortunate to still have there as it is. They probably could have relocated the marina through some trade-off as part of the bridge reconstruction or to other NPS property nearby which would make both sides happier since the facilities at Belle Haven kind of suck and boaters aren't particularly tied to it other than it's all that's there. But that's not how we do such things and it's not up to me so...

Thanks. It's a good start.

Bill.N. Wrote:
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> For all the facts and butthurts that aren't, there
> isn't a great deal of solid information on this
> thread for those of us who aren't following the
> Dyke March debate to know WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON
> HERE.

Actually, there are lots of leads for those curious and willing enough to follow up on them rather than asking that others undertake that work for them. The FODM, NPS, and USGS sites and papers referred and linked to above would have opened all the doors that anyone might have needed. It's like wikipedia -- many times the important information is not so much what is included in the article itself as what can be found by following the source footnotes included at the bottom.

Captain Crunch Wrote:
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> If it were up to me, I'd build the breakwater...

Generally, a good summary. There is no actual connection between Dyke Marsh and the Belle Haven Marina, except that both have been clamoring for money. Lots of otherwise worthwhile projects were not funded as they might have been in the wake of the Great Recession, but legislation passed in the wake of Hurricane Sandy made it possible for ecological sites such as Dyke Marsh to get some funding, and the Marina people seem to feel cheated in that somehow. There are no plans in anyone's hands to cripple or destroy the Marina --just to restore and protect what remains of Dyke Marsh.

By the way, wetland systems such as Dyke Marsh are dynamic in nature. Left alone, they sustain themselves through deposition of silt from runoff carried by creeks and small streams that feed into and then wind through the marsh. Some 500 years worth of this this self-sustaining cycle was interrupted in Dyke Marsh by sand and gravel mining and dredging operations that destroyed the established stream patterns and also removed the existing natural barriers protecting the shoreline from tidal surges associated with periodic tropical and other significant storms. As the result, the site was left geologically unstable when mining operations ceased in the 1970's and the marsh has been rapidly deteriorating ever since. Properly restored and protected, the site would in fairly short order be able to rebalance itself and function as a stable tidal wetlands once again. The funding now available should cover all the major costs of accomplishing that. Private donations are expected to be enough to cover the rest.

Keeping the Belle Haven Marina people from feeling like poor stepchildren to the Washington Sailing Marina people or the Columbia Island Marina people or any of the DC-side marina people is meanwhile a separate and perhaps socially suspect issue to be looked at independently of issues related to Dyke Marsh.

>There is no actual connection between Dyke Marsh and the Belle Haven Marina, except that both have been clamoring for money

Yes 27 million to fill in a swamp near the Blue Plains Plant and across from National Harbor. Belle Haven Supporters would be glad to see the NPS service spend a half million to at leats fix up the marina and dredge the channel out to thye river so sailboast can get in and out of there

> but legislation passed in the wake of Hurricane Sandy made it possible for ecological sites such as Dyke Marsh to get some funding,

And Why? Sandy did little damage to the marsh. Isabelle did lots and it leveled the Belle Haven Marina which had to be rebuilt by the operators of the marina and volunteers Yours truly included. The NPS was useless in this effort.

>Properly restored and protected, the site would in fairly short order be able to rebalance itself and function as a stable tidal wetlands once again

Untill the next hurricane, a hole in the river to pour money into.

>Keeping the Belle Haven Marina people from feeling like poor stepchildren to the Washington Sailing Marina people or the Columbia Island Marina people or any of the DC-side marina people is meanwhile a separate and perhaps socially suspect issue to be looked at independently of issues related to Dyke Marsh.

It sure as hell is. Why is the Washington Sailing Marina gold plated ? You cant even launch a power boat there Why?? Columbia Island Marina on NPS property does not have sailboats ..because Humpback Bridge on the GW parkway is there at the entrance and you cant get a sail boat in there. Belle Haven allows sail boats kayaks power boats, windsurfers. Why does not the Washington Sailing Marina? Sounds like a good federal lawsuit against the NPS for equal access , discrimination by class, power boaters vs sailboaters. Theres no marsh there or eco reason. Its all the peoples property. Belle Haven is left to rot. Why??

Where is the equal access the NPS is Supposed to provide??

I invite anyone to go to each place and observe, and take note off all the people who dont even have boats strolling thur Belle Haven.. An important resource that needs to be saved. Your talking about Belle Haven Marina.. A beat up "Peoples Marina" where young and old, rich and poor enjoy nature and the Potomac River. And its been there co existing with nature over 60 years.
And dont forget a US President in office HW Bush fished the boat basin at Belle Haven . How many places can say that? It is a historical spot.

As said in this thread. Close Belle Haven open up Washington Sailing Marina to all.

Filling in the marsh is just fine to the south where the breakwaters will be, Rip rap the islands and near the marina leave the channels open for canoes and kayaks and leave Belle Haven and the boat basin alone and fix it up.

Belle Haven is at the far nothern end of the area 1 mile south from the Wilson Bridge, To the north is open water to the Wilson bridge.At the south end of the marina is the boat basin and the "access to the main Potomac River. there are islands to the south of Belle Haven that were created by the dredging as well as a couple of channels around the islands that are great kayak and canoe areas.The Dyke Marsh is also to the south. The haul road is a 1/2 mile path from near the marina down to the the area of the islands. Its called the haul road becaue it was made in the 60's to get dump trucks in there. There is a wooden walk way well done at the end with senic over looks of the island and the marsh area. Belle Haven marina rents canoes and kayaks for people to explore this area.

The pics show 1. The Nations capitol from the boat basin out to the main river.
2. The haul road and senic overlook which is handicapped accessible its entire 1/2 mile lenght. 3. A young sailor on a Sunfish type sailboat. 3. The Dyke marsh to the south of the haul road where most of the fill will be out toward the river. 4. The islands and the channel known localy as "Chips Ditch" where kayakers and canoes ride around the marsh. Power boats are not allowed in this area. Chip has ran the sail boats there many many years he's been there since he was a youngster and has taught many young people to sail and enjoy the river and joys that nature offers..
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Fair Is Fair Wrote:
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> Yes 27 million to fill in a swamp near the Blue
> Plains Plant and across from National Harbor.

No one is for "filling in" anything. You are meanwhile beating dead horses and revealing yourself as nothing more than a single-issue me-me-me-me pimp for the Marina. There are other interests than yours at play here. Sorry they got some money and you didn't. Yet. Deal with it.

Fair Is Fair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And Why? Sandy did little damage to the marsh.

Too stupid by a lot. The Hurricane Sandy Rebuilding Strategy and Climate Action Plan deals with lessons learned from the storm, one of which (that should already have been understood) was with respect to the importance of tidal wetlands and the like in absorbing energy from storms, thereby reducing damage to developed areas beyond them. Dyke Marsh did not get money because it was damaged by Hurricane Sandy. It got money because it is exactly the sort of resource that the plan targeted and it had been allowed to sink into a state of utter disrepair. Now, that will be corrected.

> Untill the next hurricane, a hole in the river to
> pour money into.

Every ounce of energy that Dyke Marsh might absorb is an ounce less that slams into Maine Avenue and the Georgetown waterfront. As someone once said, you're an asshole.

Your tactics are well know, dont debate just call names. You are the marshes single worst enemy.

The moneys already been provided just spend it to the south of the marina and leave the marina and islands alone.

And the thousands that like the marina are not pimps.

Leave The Marina Alone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your tactics are well know, dont debate just call
> names. You are the marshes single worst enemy.

And you, that of the English language?

> The moneys already been provided just spend it to
> the south of the marina and leave the marina and
> islands alone.

Read the plans and EIS reports. Restoring and protecting the marsh are all that anyone intends to do.

> And the thousands that like the marina are not pimps.

I'm sure the Marina would indeed have many better spokespersons than you. But there is still no connection between Dyke Marsh and the Marina. Marina pimps, hacks, and single-issue whiners simply want money and didn't get any yet. Tough luck. Have you tried user-fees?

Facts Are Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Leave The Marina Alone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Your tactics are well know, dont debate just
> call
> > names. You are the marshes single worst enemy.
>
> And you, that of the English language?
>
> > The moneys already been provided just spend it
> to
> > the south of the marina and leave the marina
> and
> > islands alone.
>
> Read the plans and EIS reports. Restoring and
> protecting the marsh are all that anyone intends
> to do.
>

Not really. The Plan/EIS includes 3 alternatives:

Alternative A. The standard "No Action" alternative.
Alternative B. Hydrologic Restoration and Minimal Wetland Restoration.
Alternative C. Hydrologic Restoration and Fullest Possible Extent of Wetland Restoration

Alternative C. is the Preferred Alternative. It does include filling in various areas which would affect the marina. In particular, "...an optional 20-acre restoration cell in the area currently serving as mooring for the marina, which would only be implemented should the marina concession no longer be economically viable."

As noted by various marina supporters, the catch with the "economically feasible" limitation is that determination is made solely by the NPS. Given that it's already perceived as being questionable on their part and in light of what are acknowledged to be relatively expensive necessary repairs which remain unfunded, that really doesn't give supporters much comfort.


> I'm sure the Marina would indeed have many better
> spokespersons than you. But there is still no
> connection between Dyke Marsh and the Marina.
> Marina pimps, hacks, and single-issue whiners
> simply want money and didn't get any yet. Tough
> luck. Have you tried user-fees?


Marina, ramp, and other users have been paying user fees for as long as it's been there. But that is a good idea for users accessing the marsh who pay and have paid nothing.

Meant to say above, the final plan has not yet been released so exactly what will be done on what schedule and at what cost remains uncertain at this point. But that is how the plan was presented and stands as of now.

To Access the new enlarged West Nile Breeding Zone. Good Idea.

New equipment will be needed to control the mosquitoes in the new huge swamp.

Thank God there are those who are ahead of the curve, and ready to help protect us from DEM Skeeters..
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Mama Papa and 3 baby Ospreys at Belle Haven Marina

NPS Don't Close This Marina. its a place that thousands of people people enjoy, And don't fill in the boat basin or channels between the islands, the rest of the fill is a waste of money 27 million seeing you wont spend a dime to fix the marina that's there , but what the hell Uncle Sam has got it UNLESS its needed to fix up the Current marina.

Keep Belle Haven Marina Open! And say NPS what are you doing next?? leveling and paving Old Rag Mountain???

Why Do Your administrators of the George Washington Parkway HATE Belle Haven Marina?? FIRE THEM!
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Where all my belle haven niggas at.

They need to protect and maintain the marina. Who should we complain to about this? The NPS or Gerry Connolly?

I agree, keep the marina