I saw on other postings that folks are leaving hunters woods. why?

I heard a lot of the sixth graders were moving on to seventh grade and they can't go to seventh grade there.

I is movieing to 6ith grayed thier.

Bad principal.

Gogo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I saw on other postings that folks are leaving
> hunters woods. why?

When were there not complaints about Hunters Woods?

I hear there's too many art projects that many boys hate. It's suppose to be an arts and science magnet, but it's very heavy on the art projects. Some parents get sick of the art projects too.

Everyday Math is another problem. Parents have to hire tutors if their children are to learn math. Without a tutor the kids have problems when they hit real math in middle and high school.

I've never understood why so many schools accepted that awful math program. Both Flint Hill private school and Flint Hill public don't have it. Edlin doesn't either. Many of the private and Catholic schools have real math programs that don't require outside tutors.

I spend more than 50 hours a weeks tutoring students in math and I have 10 years experience. So far, Everyday Math is one of the worst books that I have encountered. It is not appealing to kids, it does not provide enough content, and it does not give enough practice problems. Now I am helping students mantain their skills throughout the summer. I tutor quite a few students online.

Top Grade Tutoring
Daniel Rosales
1-800-436-1160
www.TopGradeTutoring.com

What about sunrise valley? Is their principal good? They also use every day math.

The principal at Sunrise Valley is at best, mediocre. If you have a boy, I would not recommend that your child attend at all since the principal seems to have a very strong bias/dislike of boys. The school insists that it treat everyone equally, such that individual needs and interests cannot be taken into account, and the principal runs the school with an iron fist in the sense that she controls all communications sent out by the PTA etc.... You cannot succeed in the school unless you are politically astute in how you learn how to deal with her, and if your educational philophies clash, you'll not be in sync at all.

It is well known to Betsy Goodman, as Betsy Goodman knows first-hand and by reputation how the school is run. According to Betsy, parents are okay with it, though this is not the case.

Yes, they use Everyday Math.


what about sunrise valley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What about sunrise valley? Is their principal
> good? They also use every day math.

Sunrise Valley Principal is awful. She will not allow ANY competitions at her school. Students cannot compete in spelling Bee's, the National Geography Bee, Math counts, science olympiad, or any other competition. She won't even allow kids do keep score during games on field day! She's a an extremist nut and apparently has no clue that many children, especially boys, thrive on competition. Nor is she aware that the real world, and all sports activities, are competitive. And yes, she has adopted Everyday Math.

Our democrats on the school and FCPS staff seem to be THE ONLY people in this county who LOVE Everyday Math.

Wait, I take that back. I am sure that many of the tutors, Score, Kumon math schools, Sylan learning centers, and private schools, appreciate FCPS having adopted this terrible math program as it has increased their businesses.

Daniel Rosales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I spend more than 50 hours a weeks tutoring
> students in math and I have 10 years experience.
> So far, Everyday Math is one of the worst books
> that I have encountered. It is not appealing to
> kids, it does not provide enough content, and it
> does not give enough practice problems. Now I am
> helping students mantain their skills throughout
> the summer. I tutor quite a few students online.
>
> Top Grade Tutoring
> Daniel Rosales
> 1-800-436-1160
> www.TopGradeTutoring.com

Thank you for posting. Many of us, parents, tried our best to convince the school board not to adopt Everyday Math. But staff wanted it, so all the democrats supported it, just as they support anything that the administration supports. Staff and teachers thought Everyday Math was 'more fun', so we're stuck with 10 years of children not learning math and the achievement gap getting bigger each year because only those who can afford tutors will learn any math.

In California, 10 years ago, it took that state only 1/2 of a school year to realize they had made a terrible mistake in adopting Everyday Math. They spent millions, mid year, to replace it in every school. Our school board was aware of that when they adopted Everyday Math. They ignored the experience of school systems across the country, and choose to support the wishes of staff over students. Shameful. Now we all pay the price. Again. Who suffers the most? Kids on the bottom. Again.

They use Everyday Math in McLean at Kent Gardens School and Churchill Road. It is a terrible program. The County adopted it but left it to individual schools to decide if they wanted to use it. I talked to our representative, Janie Strauss, and complained about it. She said the school board recommended that Everyday Math be supplemented. Of course, they didn't say how. And if you're familiar with the course, the only way to supplement it is to supplant it. I did so with my daughter. I tutored her using Singapore Math. In that way, EM becomes the supplement to the main course which was Singapore.

I wrote an article about what's wrong with math ed in the US and how it got that way. The article features a sidebar about Everyday Math in Fairfax County. It can be found at: http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/3220616.html

Yes, schools could choose other math textbooks but only if they had the money to pay for them. Few schools could afford that so the vast majority of the children in this county are stuck with Everyday Math. Parents who can afford it are stuck paying tutors to teach their children math because the schools are not teaching math. That means that poor students lose out, they don't have the opportunity to learn math. A rather large handicap for them.

Neen,

Sorry to hear you are losing money selling real estate in Oakton and Herndon. Face facts, everybody is buying in Reston for a reason, the area sells well.

Plenty of pathways that connect to lakes and the W&O bike trials. 13 public pools and tennis courts for Reston residents, two great golf courses, the Reston Town center, Reston Day care and Summer camps for kids... I could keep going to hours...

Oakton housing is just way to over priced, sorry.

EM's a pretty good curriculum if you want to teach kids how to think using math. However it drops a bunch of the traditional, rote arithmetic that many parents think math is all about. Ask a math prof how much arithmetic they use...Ask an engineer how much arithmetic they use...Ask a cashier how much arithmetic they use... it's all automated in this IT-centric world. I'd want my kids to understand the math as a language and how to solve problems using tools they master...like a calculator or a slide rule or whatever. Okay, I'll admit that EM is harder to teach than traditional rote math, but shouldn't FCPS have the best math teachers for the premium they're paid?

Lopter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen,
>
> Sorry to hear you are losing money selling real
> estate in Oakton and Herndon. Face facts,
> everybody is buying in Reston for a reason, the
> area sells well.
>
> Plenty of pathways that connect to lakes and the
> W&O bike trials. 13 public pools and tennis
> courts for Reston residents, two great golf
> courses, the Reston Town center, Reston Day care
> and Summer camps for kids... I could keep going to
> hours...
>
> Oakton housing is just way to over priced, sorry.

I don't sell real estate.

Glad you are happy in Reston.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, schools could choose other math textbooks but
> only if they had the money to pay for them. Few
> schools could afford that so the vast majority of
> the children in this county are stuck with
> Everyday Math. Parents who can afford it are
> stuck paying tutors to teach their children math
> because the schools are not teaching math. That
> means that poor students lose out, they don't have
> the opportunity to learn math. A rather large
> handicap for them.

On another thread (RD) you were said, "doesn't every principal get to decide how their money is spent?" I guess in this case they don't? I thought when the textbooks are chosen there are typically 2-3 texts picked, and schools choose from those. Are you saying when everyday math was brought in it was the one and only choice in FCPS ES schools? By the way, democrats don't like it, per se, as I am one and hate it.

Who was on the school board when it came in? Clearly not the current since it was 10 years ago (I think)..wasn't Mychelle Brickner on then?

I loved living in Reston unit the Nazi Reston HOA started f'g with me.
All because my sliding glass doors didn't lool like my neighbors...

"I'd want my kids to understand the math as a language "

Math is NOT language, you can't teach Math, Physics, etc as teaching a language. Everytime I encounter a cashier that can do some sales without a calculator, the cashier is NOT American. Isn't that a tell tale sign, something is wrong about the Math education? If it's already yanked in California, yet nothing can be done here, isn't there something wrong to the System?

Math is certainly a language. Every do any computer programming? Ever look at an academic paper? Of course you can't teach math like you teach English, except if you want to equate arithmetic with penmanship but that doesn't make it any less a language. A language isn't defined by how it's taught....

Let me get this straight, you're saying there's something wrong with the System because FCPS educated kids are going off to college to study higher math with their superior problem solving skills instead of working as an obsolete manual cashier who can figure out your change in their head? The year 1890 called and the cash register obsoleted all those "NOT American" educations. How much more is that arithmetic whiz paid because they don't need a cash register?

Face it, those education majors are onto something here.

Maths is not hard drills, but without drills to get the fundamental basics, it's hard to achieve more.

I almost never do manual divisions, but I agree the following, quoted from [www.hoover.org]

“The authors of Everyday Math do not believe it is worth the time and effort to develop highly efficient paper-and-pencil algorithms for all possible whole number, fractions and decimal division problems.…It is simply counterproductive to invest hours of precious class time on such algorithms. The math payoff is not worth the cost, particularly because quotients can be found quickly and accurately with a calculator.”

In fact, long division has particular importance, not because of its ability to increase computational fluency, but because what makes it work (the distributive property) is an important concept that students will use later in algebra. It also plays an important role in uncovering another significant math concept: why fractions give rise to repeating decimals. Working out the division of numbers like 1/3 and 1/7 helps students see this; using a calculator does not. "

And if everyone has the basics "proof" training learned from geometry, many of the "sincere arguments" in this forum wouldn't be there in the first place.

"Proofs in geometry class have been a mainstay of mathematics. In fact, proofs were always considered an essential part of high school geometry, not only because of their importance in higher math, but because learning the rules of logical argument and reasoning has applications in science, law, political science, and writing. To see proofs being shortchanged in a geometry textbook was shocking.

"

Blast this internet compulsion to always have the last word!

First of all. The subject is called Math. Notice the period--not "Maths". There is only one true Math here in America and none of the "I was educated somewhere else" pluralism. When we drill on the fundamental basics here, we drill on how to read and write effectively so as not to be dismissed out of hand as some sort of know it all who thinks teaching math like they way they teach it over where they call it "maths" is somehow better.

Whew.... Just kidding. That was hyperbole by the way.

Okay, back to EM. Paper and pencil algorithms for every little arithmetic problem are unnecessary to understand the big ideas that lead to algebra. The quote you used is absolutely correct. To take your long division example...btw they still teach long division in EM they just don't beat it to death... students don't need to practice using the distributive property in long division to see how it applies to algebra. Most kids don't really get what they're doing when performing long division other than writing out this simple little algorithm yields the answer. Making them do lots of problems to repeat the algorithm doesn't improve their understanding, it just makes them faster with an obsolete tool.

Your point about long division showing repeating decimals from fractions is valid. That's a good way to demonstrate it. Now, how do you demonstrate irrational numbers with the obsolete pencil algorithms?

Proofs are overrated as a way to teach logical reasoning.

curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes, schools could choose other math textbooks
> but
> > only if they had the money to pay for them.
> Few
> > schools could afford that so the vast majority
> of
> > the children in this county are stuck with
> > Everyday Math. Parents who can afford it are
> > stuck paying tutors to teach their children
> math
> > because the schools are not teaching math.
> That
> > means that poor students lose out, they don't
> have
> > the opportunity to learn math. A rather large
> > handicap for them.
>
> On another thread (RD) you were said, "doesn't
> every principal get to decide how their money is
> spent?" I guess in this case they don't? I
> thought when the textbooks are chosen there are
> typically 2-3 texts picked, and schools choose
> from those. Are you saying when everyday math was
> brought in it was the one and only choice in FCPS
> ES schools? By the way, democrats don't like it,
> per se, as I am one and hate it.
>
> Who was on the school board when it came in?
> Clearly not the current since it was 10 years ago
> (I think)..wasn't Mychelle Brickner on then?

We had pretty much the same school board when they voted to adopt Everyday Math, but with Mychelle and Steve Hunt. Many,many, parents and math teachers stood up and objected. But staff, administrators, and a few teachers, loved it. ALL the democrats on the board voted for it, including Moon who actually knew better. Republicans didn't like Everyday Math, but they were laughed at, and scorned, as usual.

Democrats on the board always support whatever staff wants to do. I am not sure who works for who.

At that meeting, when Everyday math was adopted, they said that schools could choose other textbooks, IF the school could pay for the books. Flint Hill was able to do that, but I don't know if others also had the money to opt out of Everyday Math.

Rita Thompson
Bob Frye
Mychelle Brickner

Then Hunt, Olezack, return of Moon?

didn't Moon used to Braddock District prior to Wilson defeating him and his sabbatical?

It seems the main focus of the past and current board has NOT been instruction but rather South County boundaries and facilities - some attention to startegic governance. In fact Brad Center remarked at a meeting SoCO was his thickest file and apparently it took up more of his time than any other issue. Perhaps they voted for it just to be able to get back to business. Instruction and academics.

Who knows?

Weird... I'm a Republican, and I like EM. Wonder how that happened.

Mario - the question is not whether you like it, or whether it conforms to your personal sensibilities, but whether it works....it doesn't appear to be increasing scores, so I would refrain from making policy pronouncements as to the same without reference to data.

And 6 or so years ago, I was fine with Hunters Woods. It was a quirky place, but it fulfilled its educational social contract. The then principal had an unorthodox manner but he was very effective and competent. Some great teachers too. Sorry to hear that some others are now not so happy. The blunt reality is that schools with large blocks of challenging populations are often on the tipping point.

mariolivio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Weird... I'm a Republican, and I like EM. Wonder
> how that happened.

You drank the KoolAid that staff feeds you.

Who's staff?

I thought you were the one who swallowed. :-P

I'm quite confused about HWE, do they have 3 schools: the GT center, the Magnet and the regular. I heard comments about their GT, their regular calss, how's the magnet school there? Their website boasts the Magnet program started in 1969?

Magnet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm quite confused about HWE, do they have 3
> schools: the GT center, the Magnet and the
> regular. I heard comments about their GT, their
> regular calss, how's the magnet school there?
> Their website boasts the Magnet program started in
> 1969?

It is one school, with 3 different ways to attend -- GT Center (if selected), apply for magnet and be included in regular classes or have HW as your base school and be in regular classes. Regardless of GT or regular classes, all students participate in the arts magnet. Ostensibly there is a science magnet, but there is in fact very little enriched science in the school overall. The arts magnet is overwhelming for students who do not have this orientation, as arts is not just an extracurricular, but integrated into every single class. Hence, there are arts projects in language arts, science etc... There are several school-wide arts festivals throughout the school year in which for the week or two preceding the event, very little schoolwork is done due to the hyper-prioritization of the arts activity.

I would tell you that unless your child has an exceedingly strong affinity for the arts that this school is not a good fit for you.

Finally, the new principal there is not as good as the old one. Quantum was happy with how the school was run under the old principal, and the old principal, due to his charisma, could attract and retain quite a few good teachers. Things have changed significantly under the new principal -- she is disliked by teachers and staff alike, and teacher turnover has spiked. She has no real vision for the school, and is off-putting in her manner.

HW Parent,

I heard that Robin Mentzer the assistance VP has left HWES to work at Oakton HS. Do you know why that happened or did it have to do with working with the principal at HWES?

I think they are upgrading the staff at HWES

Robin Mentzer did indeed leave HW just this past year. We lost two APs in the past year, fyi.

She did not get along with the new principal, Olivia Toatley, and was looking to get out from under her thumb for some period of time. Their working styles were quite different.

I thought Robin Mentzer was great; other people, I am told, were not so fond of her. She was a straight-shooter and an advocate for kids. She helped many parents, including myself, navigate the system.

The atmosphere in the central office at Hunters Woods is downright oppressive. Olivia Toatley, the principal, monitors all communications in an effort to clamp down on anything that might reflect negatively on her. I personally witnessed Olivia Toatley retaliate in subtle and not-so-subtle ways in how she dealt with Robin and the other AP, and candidly, I don't think anyone blames them for wanting to leave as quickly as possible.


Robin Hood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HW Parent,
>
> I heard that Robin Mentzer the assistance VP has
> left HWES to work at Oakton HS. Do you know why
> that happened or did it have to do with working
> with the principal at HWES?

HW Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Robin Mentzer did indeed leave HW just this past
> year. We lost two APs in the past year, fyi.
>
> She did not get along with the new principal,
> Olivia Toatley, and was looking to get out from
> under her thumb for some period of time. Their
> working styles were quite different.
>
> I thought Robin Mentzer was great; other people, I
> am told, were not so fond of her. She was a
> straight-shooter and an advocate for kids. She
> helped many parents, including myself, navigate
> the system.
>
> The atmosphere in the central office at Hunters
> Woods is downright oppressive. Olivia Toatley,
> the principal, monitors all communications in an
> effort to clamp down on anything that might
> reflect negatively on her. I personally witnessed
> Olivia Toatley retaliate in subtle and
> not-so-subtle ways in how she dealt with Robin and
> the other AP, and candidly, I don't think anyone
> blames them for wanting to leave as quickly as
> possible.
>
>
> Robin Hood Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > HW Parent,
> >
> > I heard that Robin Mentzer the assistance VP
> has
> > left HWES to work at Oakton HS. Do you know
> why
> > that happened or did it have to do with working
> > with the principal at HWES?


Ok, thanks. Sorry for my typo regarding the "assistance VP", I meant assistant principal. Anyway, that is too bad about what the current principal is doing these days at HWES. I have heard that the last principal there was really good. Any chance the former principal will come back if the current principal leaves her job?

This is exciting news, who is the new Assistant Principal?

>
> It is one school, with 3 different ways to attend
> -- GT Center (if selected), apply for magnet and
> be included in regular classes or have HW as your
> base school and be in regular classes. Regardless
> of GT or regular classes, all students participate
> in the arts magnet. Ostensibly there is a science
> magnet, but there is in fact very little enriched
> science in the school overall. The arts magnet is
> overwhelming for students who do not have this
> orientation, as arts is not just an
> extracurricular, but integrated into every single
> class. Hence, there are arts projects in language
> arts, science etc... There are several
> school-wide arts festivals throughout the school
> year in which for the week or two preceding the
> event, very little schoolwork is done due to the
> hyper-prioritization of the arts activity.
>
> I would tell you that unless your child has an
> exceedingly strong affinity for the arts that this
> school is not a good fit for you.
>


This is a very serious problem with FCPS - where you live determines the curriculum and focus you receive.

The county is a mishmash of programs - it looks like variety and choice but its not. Its not even a measured experiment.

The AP/IB debate on the recent RD is another sign of this - you think your kids are going to get one kind of education and then a politician says no, I'm moving the boundary and they're getting this one instead

Most parents work and don't have much of a choice but to send their kids to the assigned public school - not if they don't want to be sacked for being late and leaving early every day

If you're a science and math whizz, why should you arbitrarily be put in an arts school?

The argument always used to be 'well you move to an area covered by the program you like' - but with arbitrary RD, even that's not much use

When I was a freshmen at Chantilly many many years ago, they tried to teach us Hawaiian Algebra. It was horrible, nobody could comprehend the subject matter. The book was so poorly presented that even the teachers had a hard time working it into the class. If you were a special needs student it was even worse. The only time I understood algebra was when I moved up a grade and they taught it with out the extra bullshit.

>>Why cant teachers just teach math, you know division, multiplication,addition and subtraction?

>> Why do we need some social engineered text book to just get in thew way of fundamentals?

Seriously, I am asking,

What is the use of them? Besides making Hargrave Press richer.

Agreed. Certain curriculums or focal points don't work for certain kids, no matter how good it looks on paper. Math/science kids, and boys, for example, do not fare well with the hyper-focus on the fine arts at Hunters Woods. There are certainly many girls who don't like being forced to do numerous fine art projects throughout the year, either. They shouldn't be forced into it just because HW so happens to be an arts magnet.

Kids with certain language disabilities would not fare well at schools with language immersion programs, but I know of too many instances where kids have been forced into these, too.

The list just goes on and on and on.

You can say just move, but okay, then what, be redistricted in a couple of years to another school you dislike. I think there is a pretty high risk that there will be county-wide redistricting in the next 4-5 years, and then what will parents do?

So my feeling is pretty basic at this point, given the degree of the budget cuts that FCPS will face next year, piss-poor School Board leadership and host of other problems that no matter hard you try, you can't get your arms around with the way FCPS is currently structured -- get your kids out and into private school. It's just that simple. At least then, you have some measure of control over class size, curriculum, philosophy and the like.



> This is a very serious problem with FCPS - where
> you live determines the curriculum and focus you
> receive.
>
> The county is a mishmash of programs - it looks
> like variety and choice but its not. Its not even
> a measured experiment.
>
> The AP/IB debate on the recent RD is another sign
> of this - you think your kids are going to get one
> kind of education and then a politician says no,
> I'm moving the boundary and they're getting this
> one instead
>
> Most parents work and don't have much of a choice
> but to send their kids to the assigned public
> school - not if they don't want to be sacked for
> being late and leaving early every day
>
> If you're a science and math whizz, why should you
> arbitrarily be put in an arts school?
>
> The argument always used to be 'well you move to
> an area covered by the program you like' - but
> with arbitrary RD, even that's not much use

I am curious about the extent of the arts focus. From a personal perspective, I am the least artsy person I know, but I will concede that learning art and art related concepts are valuable and should be a part of any education. But is the issue here is that arts based instruction being utilized as a panacea, meaning that lots of arts projects are being applied in all different subject matter areas out of belief that children will relate to the subject matter better if inextricably bound up within an arts project? If so, that doesn't make sense. At the end of the day, our students need traditional skills in computation and writing and reading, there's seems to be little substitute for a certain of repetitive practice and vigorous skill building. Query whether I am framing the question correctly?

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am curious about the extent of the arts focus.
> From a personal perspective, I am the least artsy
> person I know, but I will concede that learning
> art and art related concepts are valuable and
> should be a part of any education. But is the
> issue here is that arts based instruction being
> utilized as a panacea, meaning that lots of arts
> projects are being applied in all different
> subject matter areas out of belief that children
> will relate to the subject matter better if
> inextricably bound up within an arts project? If
> so, that doesn't make sense. At the end of the
> day, our students need traditional skills in
> computation and writing and reading, there's seems
> to be little substitute for a certain of
> repetitive practice and vigorous skill building.
> Query whether I am framing the question correctly?


Is there a systematic program which compares the effectiveness of the educational programs county-wide?

(apart from ffxU)

What's the point in all of these alternatives is the only way to access them is if you happen to live right next to the school parking lot?

TJ is great - unless you live in the west of the county, AP is great unless you get redistricted, arts focus is great unless you happen to believe in math/science.

Like so many things, it seems to be down to the whim of the board member.

I love the link on the fcps site which says 'how to compare fairfax county schools' which then takes you to http://www.fcps.edu/about/schoolranking.htm which tells you that you can't

and the page on 'how to chose the right school for your child' http://www.fcps.edu/about/choose.htm when there's no mechanism to achieve it - and once you have moved to the right 'neighborhood school' (their words) - you get RD'd

go figure

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> meaning that lots of arts
> projects are being applied in all different
> subject matter areas out of belief that children
> will relate to the subject matter better if
> inextricably bound up within an arts project?

Precisely.

To demonstrate mastery of the Greek civilization, for example, children were expected to make a mosaic from scratch. So countless children were cutting out little pieces of colored paper to glue together into a picture for their social studies grade.

To demonstrate mastery of Egyptian civilization, children were expected to make a pyramid from scratch.

To demonstrate mastery of butterfly for science, children were expected to cut out pieces of a butterfly with construction paper and glue together.

So on and so forth.

Children were not expected to write about these subjects, such as a simple, well-constructed paragraph. Every project seemed to revolve around art.

It isn't the early grades -- it clearly goes all the way up until end of 6th grade.

I saw 4th children cutting and pasting life-sized Indians and pasting them on the walls to demonstrate understanding of colonial Virginia.

This is in addition to instruments, dance instruction, dance performances etc...

The curricululm is not in balance in the slightest, and countless parents comment on how little science there is.

Most importantly, none of this is relevant to whether a child truly understands a given topic.

re: Quantum,

I took up your gauntlet.

Academic papers on studies comparing EM to traditional US math curriculums.

http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/educators/references.shtml

In "A Longitudinal Study of Children in the Everyday Mathematics Curriculum"
by Willam M. Carroll found significant statistical improvement over traditional US curriculum control groups.

No longer just anecdotal evidence.

My kids went to the GTC at HWES when Mr Hockett was principal. The kids went because it was our GTC. Mr Hockett was great and the kids enjoyed doing the opera.

Unfortunately, HWES also came with 3rd grade violins and the cut & paste projects. Imagine making an Asbergers kid with coordination and noise problems practice violin & do art projects cause the kid is gifted in math and science...

On Mr Hockett. Someone asked whether he might be back. Unfortunately, the schools noticed he was great & made him move to McNair to attempt to fix that mess leaving HWES to Toatley. Within a year at McNair, he got picked by the Federal DOE for a couple year Principal in Residence program. He's recently back in FCPS at Clovin Run -

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=316092&paper=73&cat=104

They are lucky to have him.



HW Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> quantum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > meaning that lots of arts
> > projects are being applied in all different
> > subject matter areas out of belief that
> children
> > will relate to the subject matter better if
> > inextricably bound up within an arts project?
>
> Precisely.
>
> To demonstrate mastery of the Greek civilization,
> for example, children were expected to make a
> mosaic from scratch. So countless children were
> cutting out little pieces of colored paper to glue
> together into a picture for their social studies
> grade.
>
> To demonstrate mastery of Egyptian civilization,
> children were expected to make a pyramid from
> scratch.
>
> To demonstrate mastery of butterfly for science,
> children were expected to cut out pieces of a
> butterfly with construction paper and glue
> together.
>
> So on and so forth.
>
> Children were not expected to write about these
> subjects, such as a simple, well-constructed
> paragraph. Every project seemed to revolve around
> art.
>
> It isn't the early grades -- it clearly goes all
> the way up until end of 6th grade.
>
> I saw 4th children cutting and pasting life-sized
> Indians and pasting them on the walls to
> demonstrate understanding of colonial Virginia.
>
> This is in addition to instruments, dance
> instruction, dance performances etc...
>
> The curriculum is not in balance in the
> slightest, and countless parents comment on how
> little science there is.
>
> Most importantly, none of this is relevant to
> whether a child truly understands a given topic.

Rumor Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think they are upgrading the staff at HWES

Who is doing that and how are they doing it?

Is the principal using "upgrading" as the excuse for the teachers who have left HW?

Take a Stand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I was a freshmen at Chantilly many many
> years ago, they tried to teach us Hawaiian
> Algebra. It was horrible, nobody could comprehend
> the subject matter. The book was so poorly
> presented that even the teachers had a hard time
> working it into the class. If you were a special
> needs student it was even worse. The only time I
> understood algebra was when I moved up a grade and
> they taught it with out the extra bullshit.
>
> >>Why cant teachers just teach math, you know
> division, multiplication,addition and subtraction?
>
>
> >> Why do we need some social engineered text book
> to just get in thew way of fundamentals?
>
> Seriously, I am asking,
>
> What is the use of them? Besides making Hargrave
> Press richer.

FCPS staff LOVES this stuff. They never met a fad that they didn't love and embrace.

>>>Is there a systematic program which compares the effectiveness of the educational programs county-wide.<<<

No. Why would staff want something like that? Even if they had it, what good would it do? No one can tell a principal what program to use. Every principal wants to decide which programs they will use, which courses they will offer, etc. Principals decide what programs they will use to teach reading, or science, or anything else, except Math, where most are forced to use Everyday Math. Richer schools, that can afford to buy other math textbooks, may choose to do so. That's why schools vary so much. If a Principal wants a focus on art, or multi age classrooms, or looping, he can do it. There is no consistency of anything across the county. We have 'site based management' which means each principle controls his/her own little fiefdom and can do as he pleases. Ascertaining effective programs would be a waste of time since those programs can't be forced on any school.

mariolivio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> re: Quantum,
>
> I took up your gauntlet.
>
> Academic papers on studies comparing EM to
> traditional US math curriculums.
>
> http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/educators/referen
> ces.shtml
>
> In "A Longitudinal Study of Children in the
> Everyday Mathematics Curriculum"
> by Willam M. Carroll found significant
> statistical improvement over traditional US
> curriculum control groups.
>
> No longer just anecdotal evidence.

Oh please. They developed the dopey program and are now 'proving' how great it is.

How about something a bit more objective?

Guess you didn't read the paper ... Of course they're going to put up the studies that show their program's effectiveness on their website. It's the obvious place to look and I can understand your grain of salt, but the paper I pointed out was funded by the NSF and administered by Northwestern, a rival of UChicago. The NSF has reasonably pure intentions in this matter, I'd hope you'd agree.

Now, I presented data Herr quantum. Where's yours? Or are you just an internet troll? Neen, I've backed up my assertion with logical reasoning and research and you've said I'm drinking someone else's Kool-aid. You're a childish demagogue.

Mario - the results of the Carroll study were deemed not statistically significant by the Dep't of Education.

http://d-edreckoning.blogspot.com/2006/09/its-official-everyday-math-sucks.html

And while the fact that the study was from the Univ. of Chicago's education department does not in and of itself invalidate the points made by Carroll, Neen does make a point (if in an inflammatory way) that bias is hard to ignore. A fair point, right? And I don't think the name calling helps your case, but that is just my view.

Here's what I intuit - and again - just intuit. Everyday math was developed as a means to reach students that were not being reached in an effective way, and often, those students were in the same classes or groups that give the education establishment so much challenge. And the premise is interesting - if one can make math appear more relevant or practical to daily life, more students might eventually achieve a basic level of proficiency. And it may do more than that - certain algebraic or geometric concepts may get introduced in a plaintive way earlier than they would otherwise be introduced, and that may be a good thing.

But there's a reason huge jurisdictions like the entire state of Texas have dropped Everyday Math - similar to the great number of jurisdictions that have rejected another fad - whole language - at least tilted in favor of more eclectic approaches and in any event ones with a greater focus on phonetic reading, at least for most students. The programs don't work for middle class kids and middle class achievers - and like it or not - these folks are huge constituency in public schools, and rightly so. So there's a reason why the parents of bright kids in Fairfax County don't generally like fuzzy math (note even kids in the middle in Fairfax are bright by national standards) - it doesn't prepare and challenge them sufficiently. This is of course why tutors are making a good living here.

While this piece of material may be unfair and unduly anecdotal, you of course can understand why Everday Math test questions such as this one posed to Illinois 5th graders inflames parents:

A. If math were a color, it would be -, because -.
B. If it were a food, it would be -, because -.
C. If it were weather, it would be -, because -.

Mind you - this is in 5th grade - well beyond the time in which all students should flat out have memorized serious multiplication and division tables (third grade).

________________________________________

And lets be blunt about why FCPS adopts such programs. They, like everyone else, are desperate to help the typical lower performing groups, and if they see any research, including that such as Carroll's statistically insignificant research, that opines these groups will be helped, they run to it, knowing darn well middle or upper middle class kids will end up looking out for their own interests, even if the schools don't treat them as well as they should.

And parents of TJers may come across as irritating here. Most of their kids buzz through BC calc by 10th or 11th grade, with lots of 5's on the AP BC calc exams. These kids don't suffer from inept math instruction in the early grades, or at least not in a non-transitory way, because they are simply bright enough to get around it. Appearing to complain when faced with an embarrassment of riches doesn't wear well. But one thing I have noticed with TJ kids - is just how they quickly and effectively learned math by mastering basic principles early on. It serves as a hard wired platform, giving them time and energy to think about the harder, more challenging issues and proofs. In other words, they look at a math test that I would look at as 100% challenging as only 25-30% challenging - and anecdotally, they invariably appear to talk afterwards about the same one or two questions on a test they found to be difficult. Car pools are their own educational experience. So in this vein I wonder whether educators are really looking at right thing - in working life (an argument you posit and to which I agree) we tend to copy those that do things well and the methods by which they achieve them. So contrary to your assertions, I am not sure that Everyday Math reflects every day experience, because when we look to every day experience we look to those that do it well.

And I am sorry to hear negative news about Hunters Woods - although I am mindful the news doesn't tell the whole story.

Back in the day, it certainly was a quirky elementary school experience, but it was also in many respects rigorous and one could observe the real progress of the kids.

Not at the beach w/ Quantum et al...

I think we can all acknowledge that the things posted on this forum are anecdotal, so HW Parent's experiences may not jibe with those of other parents. My kids loved the way art was integrated into the subject matter at HWES (and they were there two principals ago). Studies have shown that the more a subject is repeated and integrated into the brain via writing and other physically manipulative functions such as drawing or composing, the more one remembers the subject. That is why note taking is important - it reinforces what is being heard or read. My children remember much of what they learned because of the visual art projects.

I do wonder at the parents of boys or GT students who think their children are suffering because they are 'forced' to do projects that don't suit their math/science skills. Is it because they aren't 'good' at art or performance and some GT kids and their parents want them to be 'good' at everything.

I work in the design realm, and believe me, their is a lot of math in art (e.g., patterns, composition, spacial relationships, balance). Art shouldn't be looked down at or discounted just because one wants to be a rocket scientist. I'll wager that there was also actually some art that went into designing the Apollo rockets.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Is there a systematic program which compares
> the effectiveness of the educational programs
> county-wide.<<<
>
> No. Why would staff want something like that?
> Even if they had it, what good would it do? No
> one can tell a principal what program to use.
> Every principal wants to decide which programs
> they will use, which courses they will offer, etc.
> Principals decide what programs they will use to
> teach reading, or science, or anything else,
> except Math, where most are forced to use Everyday
> Math. Richer schools, that can afford to buy
> other math textbooks, may choose to do so. That's
> why schools vary so much. If a Principal wants a
> focus on art, or multi age classrooms, or looping,
> he can do it. There is no consistency of anything
> across the county. We have 'site based
> management' which means each principle controls
> his/her own little fiefdom and can do as he
> pleases. Ascertaining effective programs would be
> a waste of time since those programs can't be
> forced on any school.

So principals can pick and choose their own programs and SB members can pick and choose which children go.

so much for parents and their rights - we seem to be the only people with no choices or power

I have no issue with the arts.

I do, however, have serious issues when every single class in part becomes a grade based on art projects.

Test knowledge and ability to read, write and analyze effectively -- not how well a child can put together a pyramid, Greek mosaic, or anything else.

No one said that some children may not benefit from a more intense focus on the arts. It does, however, present a tremendous bias in the curriculum toward children who have this aptitude to the detriment of children who do not.

I would also add that HW is supposed to be an arts AND science school. Art is with a capital "A" -- science is with a little "s". Everyone knows this, and not only parents but also the science resource teachers have complained.

I went to an art presentation this past spring in which they did an artistic interpretation (read -- interpretative dance) on the food chain. The teacher prefaced the dramatization of the food chain by stating it is a way to make an "otherwise dull topic more interesting." I fundamentally take issue with any teacher who posits that history, science and other subjects are dull and uninteresting without be livened with dance presentations and arts and crafts projects.

It's offensive to me and offensive to many other parents. Having said that, I do recognize that a minority of children may enjoy this type of curriculum, but it is overall too skewed to benefit the majority.




SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not at the beach w/ Quantum et al...
>
> I think we can all acknowledge that the things
> posted on this forum are anecdotal, so HW Parent's
> experiences may not jibe with those of other
> parents. My kids loved the way art was integrated
> into the subject matter at HWES (and they were
> there two principals ago). Studies have shown
> that the more a subject is repeated and integrated
> into the brain via writing and other physically
> manipulative functions such as drawing or
> composing, the more one remembers the subject.
> That is why note taking is important - it
> reinforces what is being heard or read. My
> children remember much of what they learned
> because of the visual art projects.
>
> I do wonder at the parents of boys or GT students
> who think their children are suffering because
> they are 'forced' to do projects that don't suit
> their math/science skills. Is it because they
> aren't 'good' at art or performance and some GT
> kids and their parents want them to be 'good' at
> everything.
>
> I work in the design realm, and believe me, their
> is a lot of math in art (e.g., patterns,
> composition, spacial relationships, balance). Art
> shouldn't be looked down at or discounted just
> because one wants to be a rocket scientist. I'll
> wager that there was also actually some art that
> went into designing the Apollo rockets.

Well, I'm sorry that things are so biased now. My kids had plenty of rote to go along with. It was an excellent mix and I think made them creative thinkers in the later grades and even now in college. Why do the pendulums have to always swing so far?

I'm not looking for rote, although whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there is a rote element to learning -- memorize months of year, memorize multiplication tables etc...

I'm looking for analytics. Something that shows that they know basic facts and can begin to look for simple implications from those facts. Something that shows they can write, edit and revise a simple paragraph and that they understand what this means, instead of parents clearly doing the art projects and writing for their children so they get a good grade.

I'll never forget this past January when the teacher told me that the writing project (maybe the first or second of the entire school year) the kids were working on in class was being postponed until February because the kids had to finish their art project to be displayed on the walls first in time for the arts celebration where all the parents are invited to tour the school, and the principal was sending out numerous emails making this the #1 priority.

I believe the vast majority of parents would not agree that the few writing projects that the children had this year should take a backseat to art projects to display when the parents tour the school, but this is precisely what occurred on a regular basis at the school.

I realize that many people had a good experience with Hockett, but again, things have changed considerably for the worse under Toatley.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, I'm sorry that things are so biased now. My
> kids had plenty of rote to go along with. It was
> an excellent mix and I think made them creative
> thinkers in the later grades and even now in
> college. Why do the pendulums have to always
> swing so far?

just received the phone call the principal is resigning (or retiring not exactly sure). Either is long overdue IMHO.

Anything know anything more about it.

The sxhool is a "magnet school" for Arts and Sciences. What a joke. Art maybe but havn't seen any science in 3 years there. An avalanche of PC nonsense though on nearly every assignment, take any substantive assignment and you can choose to Draw a picture, write a poem.

Ms.Coope seems like a nice lady

The principal of Crossfield Elementary resigned this past year too.

She stated that she resigned to be at home with her newborn, but the teachers and the PTO were bitching about her a lot.

Gogo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I saw on other postings that folks are leaving
> hunters woods. why?

Because any sane person WOULD leave Hunters Woods.
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