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Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: September 18, 2007 04:33PM

or do the rules determine the culture of a society?

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: TheMeeper ()
Date: September 18, 2007 04:38PM

State of the Mind VS. Mind of the State

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Czar ()
Date: September 18, 2007 04:41PM

both, and that is why both evolve (or devolve depending on your viewpoint).

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: September 18, 2007 08:24PM

You have to mix a little Charlie Darwin with folks like Rich Dawkins and you will conclude that mankind evolved by defining rules to survive. Overtime, the groups that survived had different rules or laws to support their survival...given more time the rules, laws, customs changed providing the basis for different cultures. A good example is the prohibition by conservative Jews and Muslims who consider the pig dirty and do not eat it. At one time, people noticed that you died if you eat pork--later there was the scientific discovery of trichinosis. Most interestingly, many leaders upon advice of Jesus or Allah et al, made changes to their cultures, by claiming divine intervention--Joe Smith and Leon Hubbard come to mind. With the globalizaton taking place ever more quickly, many cultures feel very threatened and are willing to die to maintain their culture and its associated rules/laws/beliefs/customs.

I wish that I had an aunt as sharp and clever as Tia2!

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Job Beams ()
Date: September 18, 2007 08:42PM

I think that Jose is right. Culture evolves from many factors and can be traced back to Darwinian concepts of survival. I found the video movie, "Zeitgeist," [zeitgeistmovie.com] , rather interesting, since it would support the "evolution" of cultures, originally coming from a common source (rules) and, yet, evolving into vastly different cultures.

it's = it is * its = possessive < not opinion :-)

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Robert ()
Date: September 18, 2007 08:51PM

Evolution is a myth.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Lurker. ()
Date: September 18, 2007 11:02PM

Evolution is not a myth, here's proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGzrzGbG3M8

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: TheMeeper ()
Date: September 19, 2007 06:09AM

Robert Wrote:
> Evolution is a myth.

Meade,

Did your parents lose some kind of bet with God?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2007 06:10AM by TheMeeper.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: September 19, 2007 10:23AM

Ok,


Let's say that rules/laws/customs define a culture. If we take that road, does that mean that a family that lives their life with strong cultural beliefs/morals and teaches their children the same, will in the end surrender to the influences of the society and loose what distinguishes them as individuals?

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: September 19, 2007 11:44AM

No, auntie, absolutely not. Remember, there's freedom of choice. If you subscribe to the "mixing bowl" theory (different cultures are the ingredients in the salad and retain their individual identities), then you have the option to retain your cultural uniqueness. I, personally, prefer the philosophy that the USA is a "melting pot" and there's an American (USA) homogeneity among all citizens. Unfortunately, following affirmative action forays and the concept that diversity is good in the work place, the melting pot idea was not fashionable. The many subcultures in the USA are fine with me--it's only when they start to enforce their beliefs and values upon others, particularly when the fringe groups use violence or reprograming/indoctrination techniques, that we have problems. As a presumed Catholic you are surely familiar with Jesuits' saying of "Give me the child until he is seven, and I will show you the man." And like many Catholics you have freedom of choice to accept or reject tenets of your belief/value system. As people do with their holy books, you "pick and choose" what you want (what your subculture wants). I like to believe that in spite of this "individualness," we are part of the larger North American culture that absorbs us all (races, creeds, subcultures, etc.) to make an amalgam that is greater than the sum of its parts.
A good primer for you is Dr. Morris Massey's writings on cultural diversity and change [http://owenstewart.com/products.html?prodid=3200P]. And in your search for Truth, please check out paradigm shifts [An epistemological paradigm shift was called a scientific revolution by epistemologist and historian of science Thomas Kuhn in his book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.] I apologize for my loquaciousness and pedanticism. I'm trying to be concise and want to avoid the opinion to which you're sensitive.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: § ()
Date: September 19, 2007 02:15PM

Whoa Tia. That's deep. Real deep. -§

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: September 20, 2007 11:22AM

Ok Jose,

To paraphrase (even though I thoroughly enjoy your extensive volcabulary) and if I am interpreting your responses correctly, you believe that Rules/laws/beliefs/customs define a society, but individual cultures define those rules etc. that are implemented and thus mandated to the members of the society to follow.

If that is the case, if one of the many goups of people that live in any given country become the majority, and their cultural beliefs are drastically different than the beliefs of those that currently lead that country, is it possible that the existing society as a whole will adopt and accept their rules/laws/beliefs/customs and actually change the way it is defined and VIEWED by other countries?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2007 11:24AM by Tia2.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: ferfux ()
Date: September 20, 2007 01:40PM

Does the mind rule the body or does the body rule the mind. Really they both rub up against each other. Interacting and developing as time passes and mores change. The 60's social changes showed a real shaking off of religion as an influence as seen in the steady decline of church service attendance. The women's movement was helped along by advances in technology such as the advent of the pill. Economic and political forces are also in play as regional needs come to the fore are acted upon by the voting public. Its really an amalgam of influences of culture vs needs of the society as enforced by its rules.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: September 20, 2007 02:10PM

Nice Ferfux! Very nice...
Culture versus need; enforced by rules

Rules determined by?????

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: ferfux ()
Date: September 20, 2007 02:45PM

its a mobious strip I tells ya. THe rules are determined by the needs of the people and are evolving and ever flowing into each other.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: September 20, 2007 04:14PM

OK - now tell me:

1. What do you add to dehydrated water?
2. Why is there a permanent press setting on an iron?
3. Why do we say "pair of pants" and only one "bra?"
4. What is the other word for synonym?
5. If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
6. If pro is the opposite of con, what is the opposite of Progress?
7. Why is the person who invests all of our money called a broker?
8. If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
9. If it is illegal to drink and drive, why do bars have parking lots?
10. Who put an "s" in the word lisp?
11. Why does a ship carry cargo and a truck carry a shipment?
12. If croutons are just stale bread, why are they packed in air tight containers?
13. If a mute swears, do the parents wash their hands with soap?
14. Did Roman paramedics refer to IV's as 4's?
15. Do crematoriums give discount to burn victims?
16. If cars have carburetors, do trucks have truckburetors, do vans have vanburetors, do buses have busburetors?

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: ferfux ()
Date: September 20, 2007 04:31PM

1. Vodka
2. to temporarily press things
3. I say Bro. as in "dont taser me BRO!"
4. LIKE
5. Themselves
6. CONGRESS...and or the senate
7. cuz he be losing all your money and making you Broker than before
8. I dont know try some on and model it for me...
9. Because you are sober (hopefully) before you get there
10. Captain Irony
11. Because Greenland is Rocky and Iceland is greeny
12. Vodka
13. no they wash his remote control
14. It'sa ME! MARIO
15. Come on baby light my FIRE. time to set the night on FIIIIYAAAAA
16. no But I'll have a bean burrito to go pls
17. If tia2.0 ran naked through the woods but noone saw her, would she really be naked?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2007 06:43PM by ferfux.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: September 20, 2007 04:47PM

LOL Ferfux!

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: September 21, 2007 07:13AM

It appears that we have moved off topic. And, yes, I was becoming too verbose. (Flattery will get you everywhere, grasshopper). So, to be succinct, and to support your search for knowledge, I would recommend that you read Richard Dawkin's book, THE GOD DELUSION. (It was suggested elsewhere in the Underground and I was pleased to find that the book is very well written). Don't let the title deter you--he provides superb attribution and answers your questions, far better than I could.

I like, Tia2, your Aristotle logic or syllogism. I did make some notes to respond; however, these comments turned into a monograph and I really am trying to be brief. I recommend, therefore, the "Wikipedia" review of the following topics: Darwinism; Richard Dawkins; Society; Culture; anthropology. If you read these citations, all will become clear to you, IMHO.

V/R, José (Messrs. Darwin and Hawkins pictured)
Attachments:
Charles_Darwin.jpg
250px-Richard_dawkins_lecture.jpg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Job Beams ()
Date: September 21, 2007 09:10AM

I once read a story that if you can visualize a Möbius strip, you could time travel. ferfux is right! Hark back to the online video "Zeitgeist" [zeitgeistmovie.com]. You do have to have patience to watch this clip, but I think that it helps to answer Tia2's questions. Tia2, you must be a teacher or a nun :-)

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Bob James ()
Date: September 21, 2007 09:19AM

Beautiful Brevity!
Attachments:
Moebius Strip.jpg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: TheMeeper ()
Date: September 21, 2007 09:25AM

Are you capable of posting anything that doesn't make some sort of reference to that goofy movie? Fer chrissakes already, we get it: Job Beams/Bob James is really into "Zeitgeist: The Movie".

Job Beams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I once read a story that if you can visualize a
> Möbius strip, you could time travel. ferfux is
> right! Hark back to the online video "Zeitgeist"
> . You do have to have patience to watch this
> clip, but I think that it helps to answer Tia2's
> questions. Tia2, you must be a teacher or a nun
> :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2007 09:27AM by TheMeeper.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Job Beams ()
Date: September 21, 2007 09:27AM

My last post got lost in the space-time continuum.
Attachments:
Moebius.jpg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Job Beams ()
Date: September 21, 2007 09:38AM

Surely, TheMeeper, just focus on the Möbius strip as you inwardly digest "Zeitgeist" [zeitgeistmovie.com]. Does your employer allow you to use corporate resources to dally in the Underground? Just curious.



'You of little faith,' he said, 'why did you doubt?'
-Bible, Matthew 14:31

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: September 21, 2007 09:47AM

Job Beams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Tia2, you must be a teacher or a nun
> :-)

No - just a woman who likes to start conversations regarding topics that interest me (and hopefully others):

1. So that I continue to be well informed
2. So that I am given the opportunity to receive and understand others thoughts, ideas, and opinions
3. So that I remain open minded and willing to change direction should a discussion or argument pursuade me to do so.
4. And to ensure that I do not become intellectually stagnant.

Jose, Ferfux, Bob - THANK YOU for your responses...

Next topic is up to you!

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Job Beams ()
Date: September 21, 2007 11:00AM

Cool ratiocination!

With due respect, would you like to share more information about yourself? Not a nun, not a teacher, not a nun-teacher, not a mother, a philosopher, an inquiring mind, the second aunt (?)--would like to hear more :-)

P.S. But go easy on the really hard topics (my head hurts) and in deference to you and others, no more "Zeitgeist." More gestalt would be okay.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: ferfux ()
Date: September 21, 2007 12:13PM

Oh man, if you guys think this topic will make your head hurt then try Reading Finnegan's Wake with a hangover.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: September 21, 2007 12:59PM

Try reading it SOBER!

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: September 22, 2007 11:52AM

Tia2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does the culture of a society determine it's
> rules or do the rules determine the culture
> of a society?

i have never heard of a society (nation, whatever) that was founded on rules. everything i have heard of was founded on the culture that founded it/is in charge. people are very reluctant to leave their own country as they feel it is "their" country therefore can change it or just ignore it's rules. the idea that the culture (in power) would make rules it didnt like is just preposterous.

in short: the culture of a society determine it's rules


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Job Beams ()
Date: September 23, 2007 08:31AM

I think that's about right. But throw in the culture's evolution over a number of years. Good recent examples are Scientologists and Mormons, who. evolved most recently, some interesting "rules" or mores. Or look at Christianity, or Islam--from centric origins, they have evolved into an incredible competition of mores. Darwinism in its broad interpretation. I don't want to be patronizing, but I think, Gravis, that you were more succinct than I.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: September 23, 2007 12:13PM

Tia2, I should have guessed. The clues were abundant. I believe Asian Indians are the largest ethnic group (in the USA) in Fairfax County. Also, the highest education levels. And surely the most beautiful women.
Attachments:
hindu_god_ram.jpg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: September 24, 2007 09:41AM

Jose,

Are you trying to find out what ethnicity I am? If so, I am a mut - just like every other American; but on official forms I check caucasian...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2007 03:35PM by Tia2.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: September 24, 2007 10:24AM

What a terrific amalgam from the steeps of the Caucasus, to the lofty Pyrenees, and the banks of the Ganges!

Ethnicity is only interesting to me in the sense that it "controls" one's life. I far prefer our "melting pot" and the concept of American ethnicity.

Tia2? Pictured
Attachments:
Mutt.jpg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: September 24, 2007 10:59AM

LOL Jose! Thanks!

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: September 24, 2007 11:23AM

Por nada, Señorita


José Diego (pictured as Caucasian Sheep Dog)
Attachments:
Caucasian Shepherd Dog.jpg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: September 24, 2007 01:22PM

OK - you got me again...I'm in a meeting and got caught laughing...
Thanks again!

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: October 03, 2007 04:52AM

In the short-term, empirical sense, a subculture can change the majority culture's "rules," according to news releases from Illinois. It appears that the Muslim subculture has forced Christmas off the agenda and removed pork products from some schools, to include Jello.

I remember when Catholics required fish on Fridays and that was what my elementary school served. I didn't appreciate that I had only a choice of fish. Eventually, the rules changed, Catholics became more mainstream, and there is no longer a requirement to eat fish on Fridays or go to purgatory.

Unfortunately, Islam does not believe in the "melting pot" of America and what was good 500 years ago is still good today. As a great society we attempt to accommodate all beliefs--unfortunately, some beliefs are not so accommodating of American culture and seek to change it.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: October 03, 2007 09:28AM

So eloquent yet so simple. A clear and concise answer that unfortunately is hard to debate since it makes absolute sense!

The fact that you took the "BIG" question and simplified it into a question of the subcultures willingness to change, and whether or not a particular subculture was open minded enough to consider outside influences, made providing the answer attainable.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: October 03, 2007 01:36PM

Muchas gracias señorita


Stoked and Happy
Caucasian Sheep Dog
(pictured with dog smile)
Attachments:
Caucasian Shepherd Dog.jpg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: October 04, 2007 10:10AM

Hey Jose,

I have another one for you.

Is it possible to dream the impossible dream?

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: TRICKIE ()
Date: October 04, 2007 10:30AM

Tia,

I think Jose likes you!!!!! You both sound really smart.

Trickie

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: October 04, 2007 10:32AM

No Trickie,

Not smart, just curious...
BTW - what do you think - is it possible to dream the impossible dream?
With your background, I'm sure you have an opinion...

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: October 04, 2007 10:37AM

sí

(I have learned the dangers of loquaciousness and the value of brevity).

"And the world will be better for this
That one man, scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star."
Attachments:
The-Impossible-Dream-Print-C12197717.jpeg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: October 04, 2007 10:47AM

Sorry, TRICKIE. I think Tia2 was asking you. (I have to admit, I do have a thing for smart women). If I may suggest, with respect, that your impossible dream is not to get a traffic ticket. Please excuse; the devil made me to it.
Attachments:
The Devil Made Me Do It.jpg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: October 04, 2007 11:38AM

Jose,

I know it's part of a song, but it made me think about possibilities.

Can you dream the impossible dream?

Can you reach the unreachable star?

Can you fight the unbeatable foe?

Can you achieve perfection?

In my opionion, the answer is yes to all.

If you die secure in the knowledge that you had reached all of the goals you had set for yourself professionally, personally, and spiritually, and those goals continually changed and grew in substance equal to the wisdom, tolerance, and acceptance gained by the struggle for that attainment; and you unconditionally gave to those you loved and those you did not, then you dreamed, reached, beat and achieved!

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: October 04, 2007 01:32PM

Great philosophy and insightful statement

"If you die secure in the knowledge that you had reached all of the goals you had set for yourself professionally, personally, and spiritually, and those goals continually changed and grew in substance equal to the wisdom, tolerance, and acceptance gained by the struggle for that attainment; and you unconditionally gave to those you loved and those you did not, then you dreamed, reached, beat and achieved!"

A great saying to place on workplace morale posters--as well as a vibrant philosophy to live

Unfortunately, some folks believe the best of all times was 1400 years ago and it's all been downhill since then

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: TheMeeper ()
Date: October 04, 2007 01:45PM

You can't reach something that is unreachable. A precondition of unreachability is that it is something that cannot be reached. So, if you've reached something that was unreachable, you shouldn't revel and say "wow, i've really reached the unreachable". Instead you should be saying "who's the dumbass that said this was unreachable??"

Always look for the positives.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: October 04, 2007 02:50PM

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
So, if you've reached something that was unreachable, you
> shouldn't revel and say "wow, i've really reached
> the unreachable". Instead you should be saying
> "who's the dumbass that said this was
> unreachable??"
>
> Always look for the positives.

I totally agree with the above Meeper, BUT....

How can you reach something that was unreachable in order to call someone a dumbass if you don't reach for it in the first place. (who's on first?)

Also, if people did not try to reach the unreachable, wouldn't EVERYTHING just come to a complete halt?

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tricki ()
Date: October 04, 2007 08:56PM

Oh Tia I cannot even begin to discuss this kind of stuff. My brain just won't stretch that far. Plus I am busy writing the next Frank McCourt novel perhaps about celebrities or current events like good TV shows. But I definitely think Jose Diego should stick around. We haven't had anyone of his ilk since Expensive Jeans was posting. That is not to discredit our dear Meeper who makes me chuckle with his photos.

Hugs,
Trickie the traffic scofflaw.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: TheMeeper ()
Date: October 04, 2007 09:44PM

Also, if people did not try to reach the unreachable, wouldn't EVERYTHING just come to a complete halt?
Attachments:
div0cat.jpg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: José Diego ()
Date: October 05, 2007 06:39AM

Clearly, TRICKI and Tia2 are two of the most intelligent and astute participants in this forum! I think that TRICKI taught Tia2 in school, before she matriculated from GMU. What a wonderful mentor! TRICKI, I hope that your son appreciates what a great mother he has--I remember the ol' days in school, also.
Attachments:
flag.jpg
Cat.jpg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Tia2 ()
Date: October 05, 2007 09:01AM

Tricki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh Tia I cannot even begin to discuss this kind of
> stuff. My brain just won't stretch that far.
> Plus I am busy writing the next Frank McCourt
> novel perhaps about celebrities or current events
> like good TV shows. But I definitely think Jose
> Diego should stick around. We haven't had anyone
> of his ilk since Expensive Jeans was posting.
> That is not to discredit our dear Meeper who makes
> me chuckle with his photos.
>
Come on Trickie - it' fun so please join in. Discussions such as these DEMAND input from everyone so new opinions can be formed.

BTW - MEEPER and JOSE - the pictures are absolutely adorable...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2007 09:03AM by Tia2.

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: GOD ()
Date: October 08, 2007 12:02PM

I AM GOD I MAKE CULTURE! I MAKE RULES! STOP WORSHIPING THE GOLDEN INTERNENT CALF!

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: Jimmy ()
Date: October 08, 2007 12:27PM

BE CAREFUL

you shall have no other gods before me
Attachments:
no other gods.jpg

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Re: Does the culture of a society determine it's rules
Posted by: sir bumpsalot ()
Date: February 13, 2014 03:35PM

Tia2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> or do the rules determine the culture of a
> society?


DAMN GOOD QUESTION.

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