I was listening to CSPAN radio yesterday and they were broadcasting a hearing on Amtrak subsidies. The Republican who started things off compared Amtrak’s rates from DC to New York ($198.00-300.00) to Jet Blue shuttle ($178.00) to Bolt Bus ($19.99). The Republican said of the three services, Amtrak is the most expensive, the most subsidized, and the most unionized. He then claimed, as his example showed, the private sector could do a better job for the American consumer. He got his sound-bite in.

The guy from Amtrak was stunned, and had to correct the false assumptions;

A) Amtrak’s service in the North East is NOT subsidized.
B) Amtrak maintains its own rails, Jet Blue and Bolt do not maintain the surface; they use; various Federal and state guvment’s maintain those surfaces.
C) Jet Blue drops you 20 miles outside the city, Amtrak drops you below MSG. Amtrak’s services are indeed competitive with Jet Blue if you factor in additional transportation from the airport to the city.
D) Jet Blue utilizes the FAA, and ATC (guv’ment), Bolt uses Federally built and funded highways.

The congressman’s grandstanding was an embarrassment to me as an American. Anyone with any logic could see his obfuscations. People actually elected this clown to run our country.

At one time we elected smart guys to do smart things. It appears now we elect people in Congress who can’t stick to the facts, make their own wild assumptions and narratives, and believe the American people will thrust their flawed decision making process. I guess some will, and it is a shame.

The NEC is an anomaly with the rest of the Amtrak system. The NEC is the only place where Amtrak does own the trackage. In the rest of the county, Amtrak runs over rail trackage owned by CSX, BNSF, NS or other freight carriers.

Amtrak, on the whole, is indeed subsidized. The NEC is one of possibly two routes that routinely makes money - that and the Pacific Surfline service (which is partially subsidized by CalTrans).

As to airports, well yes, airports are typically located outside of cities. This is done so as to allow 1) planes not to crash into buildings, 2) ensure minimal interface between airplanes and people in the form of engine noise, and 3) ensure ample space for runways.

Airports like Reagan and San Diego are quite anomalous in this respect.

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"...your suffering will be legendary even in Hell!"

It's funny. The subsidized sections of Amtrak are in Red States servicing Trent Lott's grandma.

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http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

I didn't realize that Illinois was a red state....

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"...your suffering will be legendary even in Hell!"

Pinhead the Cenobite Wrote:
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> I didn't realize that Illinois was a red state....


I see a lot more Red States in this map than Blue...



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http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

I am still attempting to understand the relevance of your prior post.

You really are starting to sound a lot like that Vince dude - based on my review of old posts.

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"...your suffering will be legendary even in Hell!"

Pinhead the Cenobite Wrote:
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> I am still attempting to understand the relevance
> of your prior post.
>

The relevance is the Republicans are being critical of something that is a bigger drain of Federal funds in their districts than in the Dems. And while Amtrak may be subsidized somewhat in Illinois, it's nothing compared to what happens in states like Mississippi and Alabama where there would be no rail service at all if it weren't for GOP members making sure of it.


> You really are starting to sound a lot like that
> Vince dude - based on my review of old posts.


Yeah, well, so be it.

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http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

Is that not the point then? If it is a drain on resources, kill it.

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"...your suffering will be legendary even in Hell!"

Pinhead the Cenobite Wrote:
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> Is that not the point then? If it is a drain on
> resources, kill it.


If you listened to the testimony, the amount of money the Feds spend on Amtrak is infinitesimal compared to what is spent on air travel and highways. If airlines charged what it should really cost to fly without Federal and state subsidies, you can bet Amtrak would be more than competitive. That was the point the Amtrak CEO was making.

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http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

And what subsidies are currently being provided to the airlines?

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"...your suffering will be legendary even in Hell!"

The Republican was trying to disparage the North East corridor operations,(the area that actually pulls a profit), not the areas that really use the subsidy. That was the most disturbing part of his argument



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2011 04:15PM by FUNdamental.

Pinhead the Cenobite Wrote:
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> And what subsidies are currently being provided to
> the airlines?


Air Traffic Control, commercial equipment loans, airport subsidies, FAA, should I go on?

ATC is a subsidy? How is it a subsidy? How is the FAA a subsidy?

Show me examples of current subsidies being provided by the federal government to airlines. What was the last commercial aircraft that the Federal government provided to United?

Airport subsidies are subsidies to the airports and regional airport authorities, not to airlines.

I might add that Amtrak has NEVER in its 40 year history turned a profit - system wide. Not once.

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"...your suffering will be legendary even in Hell!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2011 04:21PM by Pinhead the Cenobite.

http://hasbrouck.org/blog/archives/001001.html

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http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

Pinhead the Cenobite Wrote:
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> ATC is a subsidy? How is it a subsidy? How is the
> FAA a subsidy?
>
> Show me examples of current subsidies being
> provided by the federal government to airlines.
> What was the last commercial aircraft that the
> Federal government provided to United?

Are you saying that the airlines pay the full cost of ATC and FAA?
>
> Airport subsidies are subsidies to the airports
> and regional airport authorities, not to
> airlines.

Fine; until the airlines find an alternative to airports, an alternative that will only cost what the airlines will pay, I will stand my ground.
>
> I might add that Amtrak has NEVER in its 40 year
> history turned a profit - system wide. Not once.

Correct. And if it stopped service in unprofitable areas, the Republican would have a cow.

Let's not forget that there would have been no passenger service in the early days of the airlines if the Post Office didn't use planes for Air Mail.

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WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
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> http://hasbrouck.org/blog/archives/001001.html

Good answer. Also, I believe in the past the government has backed low cost loans to the airlines for fleet upgrades.

FUNdamental Wrote:
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> WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > http://hasbrouck.org/blog/archives/001001.html
>
> Good answer. Also, I believe in the past the
> government has backed low cost loans to the
> airlines for fleet upgrades.

They did after 9/11, I know that.

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http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

Then, of course, you have the intangibles like the dual use technology developed for the military that is used in the civilian fleets.

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http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

Yes, and today most first class mail is flown on commercial passenger aircraft, and the postal service pays a lot for first carriage. First Class mail is always the first cargo loaded onto a commercial aircraft for the morning flights. Ever notice each major airport has a big postal facility? The large trucks carrying mail on the Beltway are usually carrying standard or bulk mail.

The Northeast Corridor is the largest single user of govt subsidy. Amtrak uses the Route-Profitability System of accounting, which, in a fashion resembling the accounting practices of Enron, takes the huge capital costs of the Northeast Corridor and distributes them across the rest of the system, thus causing otherwise financially sound long distance trains to show losses of ~$200 per passenger.

FUNdamental Wrote:
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> The Republican was trying to disparage the North
> East corridor operations,(the area that actually
> pulls a profit), not the areas that really use the
> subsidy. That was the most disturbing part of his
> argument


Your point fails. Although under RPS accounting the Northeast Corridor appears to break even or show a small profit, the bulk of Amtrak's losses is in fact generated by the NEC.

To put it another way, if the NEC was a stand-alone system, and could not spread the cost of its outsized capital expenditures to the entire country, it most definitely would not show a profit. The apparent "profit" is an accounting gimmick.


WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you listened to the testimony, the amount of
> money the Feds spend on Amtrak is infinitesimal
> compared to what is spent on air travel and
> highways. If airlines charged what it should
> really cost to fly without Federal and state
> subsidies, you can bet Amtrak would be more than
> competitive. That was the point the Amtrak CEO was
> making.


In 2004, the Department of Transportation analyzed the relative cost of federal subsidies for automobiles, buses, airplanes, transit, and passenger rail per thousand passenger miles for the period 1990 to 2002. http://www.bts.gov/programs/federal_subsidies_to_passenger_transportation/pdf/entire.pdf

In every year except one, passenger rail was the most subsidized mode of transportation. (See Table 3 on p. 25 of the report.)

For example, in 2002 Amtrak subsidies per one thousand passenger miles were $210.31. Over the 1990 to 2002 span, the average subsidy was $170.28.

By contrast, the subsidy for automobiles ranged from -$4.50 in 1998 to -$1.31 in 1990, which means that drivers more than supported themselves through tolls and fuel taxes.

The subsidy to commercial aviation ranged from -$4.11 in 1999 to a high of $10.38 in 1996.

Thus a comparison between air, automobile, and rail subsidies fails to support your point.

,

I cannot believe the bullshit that is flowing from here. The FAA was set up by the government to regulate the movement of airlines - through the promulgation of regulations, airworthiness directives, inspections, management of the ATC system, etc. To say that the FAA represents a "subsidy" is fucking absurd. And I mean absurd. That is akin to saying that the Nuclear Regulator Commission subsidies GE and Westinghouse.

Airlines handle some first class mail, but the amount of first class mail handled by commercial carriers PALES in comparison to the amount it handled about 10 years ago. A major change came about when USPS agreed to a major contractual agreement with FedEx to handle mail. Evergreen and other carriers also handle mail - mostly priority mail packages. In total, mail revenues by commercial airlines dropped by about 70 percent, and are a minimal percentage of revenues - certainly less than in-house cargo flying (e.g., perishables, animals, pets, etc.). Aviation Daily provides stats on cargo revenues; if I have time and the inclination to do so, I will try to find the breakdown of RASM generated by mail. As I said, it is minimal today.

In any event, you need to remember that MAIL was the bread and butter of the rail industry. Railroads dedicated entire trains to handling mail and Amtrak, as recently as a few years ago, managed a fleet of converted box cars for bulk mail services. Unfortunately, Amtrak's route network and scheduling was too inflexible to meet USPS demands, and Amtrak rid itself of the vast majority of its cargo fleet.

Now there is no question that airlines received some loan guarantees post 9-11. The ATSB provided loan guarantees to several carriers including US Airways, America West, Frontier, and some cargo carriers. ATSB also flat out rejected loan guarantee packages for carriers like Spirit, Vanguard and United. That being said, all loan guarantees were paid off by about 2005 and the carriers have been free of that burden since that point. Carriers like American, Delta, Continental, Southwest, Alaskan, and jetBlue never requested ATSB guarantees, so you cannot say that they received a benefit. To the contrary, you could easily argue that the guarantees provided to US, Frontier and America West actually hurt the other carriers by artificially propping up poorly managed airlines. Nonetheless, today, there is no ATSB subsidy stream.

Airport subsidies are provided to airports, not to airlines. If you look at the capital outlays provided for in Air-21 - which amounts to about $50 billion, most of it was directed at FAA improvements in radar and ATC functioning and the rest was expended for airports. None of it was provided to airlines.

I will contrast this with Amtrak which receives HUNDREDS of millions of dollars in direct subsidies from Congress every year, has yet to turn a profit since its creation in 1971, and is not expected to turn a profit in the near future.

Honestly, how the fuck do you compare a publicly traded corporation that receives no direct subsidies or capital infusions and claim it is beset with subsidies when Amtrak itself is owned entirely by the U.S. Government.


-edited to try to remove the prior poster's bold tag...no luck.

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"...your suffering will be legendary even in Hell!"



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2011 11:01AM by Pinhead the Cenobite.

Oh, I forgot one thing - the claim about baggage. Mail is not prioritized over baggage. In fact, it is just the opposite.

Priority goes to passenger baggage because mishandled bags cause passenger irritation, incur mishandled bag fees, and show up in DOT mishandled bag stats. USPS mail does not.

When cargo and the bag room have mail to contend with, they have to consider whether weight and balance permits the loading of extra mail or not. Usually its not a problem, but on certain aircraft (smaller aircraft - CRJs and ERJs for example) or in certain conditions (hot/dry with limited runway and plane approaching MTOW), US mail will get held.

You will see USPS mail loaded first because aircraft cargo and baggage handling is done on a LIFO basis - the last bag in is the first bag out upon arrival. The bags are then placed onto carts for transport to the baggage claims. Airlines want to get bags out quickly as that is a tangible metric for measuring airline efficiency. A passenger who has to stand around for 30 minutes waiting for a bag, is an unhappy passenger. You do not have unhappy passengers waiting for USPS mail. There is no need to RUSH USPS mail out of the cargo hold because nobody is dying to get it.

Where mail is loaded last, it is done either because it was received from the vendor or bag room late or because they wanted to do a full bag count and get a good feel for weight and balance before loading mail - to fill out the cargo compartment and to add mail for proper weight and balance. In this situation, they will be the last items loaded onto the plane - along with "priority" tagged passenger bags (tagged for elite frequent fliers) - again because of the principals of LIFO.

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"...your suffering will be legendary even in Hell!"

saying money going to airports isnt a subsidy to airlines is ridiculous.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/amtrak-chief-says-trains-more-vulnerable-to-terrorism-than-planes-wants-to-step-up-patrols/2011/05/17/AFMA6q5G_story.html

Amtrak saw a surge in ridership after the TSA started its antics. If Amtrak becomes as degrading as airport travel, we'll have to drive more.

Fact is you cannot protect thousands of miles of tracks running through the wilderness. If this scares you than just stay home.

tomahawk Wrote:
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> Amtrak saw a surge in ridership after the TSA
> started its antics. If Amtrak becomes as degrading
> as airport travel, we'll have to drive more.
>
> Fact is you cannot protect thousands of miles of
> tracks running through the wilderness. If this
> scares you than just stay home.


agreed