Re: why does FCPS need 2.8 Billion dollars?
Posted by: look at the budget ()
Date: December 17, 2016 01:41PM

loot at the budget - more particularly p 246 of the FY17 Approved Budget here: https://www.fcps.edu/sites/default/files/media/pdf/FY17Approved%20Budget.pdf

and focus on the average cost of educating a General Education student $12,150 versus a Special Education student $24,090 - so Special Education students are 8.6% of the total student population but FCPS spends 18.4% of the budget here - fair??, efficient??

Montgomery County Public Schools spend 13.4% of their budget on Special Education services while FCPS spends 18.4% - why??

and look at the WABE Guide (comparing regional peer school systems) here: https://www.fcps.edu/sites/default/files/media/pdf/FY17WABEGuide.pdf

p. 16 shows Special Education students as a percent of total student population as 7.53% in FCPS vs. 3.55% in MCPS. In FCPS we provide "pre-school" only for 2,055 special education kids.

Fair?? Efficient??

okay Bill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay Bill - what PROGRAMS should be cut?
>
> Elementary Magnet schools
> Reading Initiatives
> Young Scholars
> IB Middle school
> JROTC
> Adapted Curriculum - Special Education
> Career & Transition Services - Special Education
> Early childhood Identification and Services
> Therapy Services
> Achievement, Integrity and Maturity
> Alternative Learning Centers
> Inter-agency Alternative Schools
> Language Immersion
> Sports
>
> What would you cut? The Budget Task Force wants
> to know...

I would put most of those on the table. However I want to know the avoidable costs to FCPS before making a final evaluation on some of these, and I believe a couple of those are mandated by Federal or Virginia law. You left off a number of obvious targets:

1. Abolish extra freebies for kids on F&RL.
2. Abolish Summer SACC
3. Abolish County provided transportation to schools other than student's base school, except for TJHSST. If your kid is attending a school other than the base school for the kid's neighborhood, you are driving.
4. Abolish remedial programs at TJ. It makes no sense letting in kids who need special help when there are qualified students who could do the work without help.
5. Abolish TJHSST Summer School.
6. Delay the start of the AAP center school programs to 4th grade and reduce the number of centers to not more than one for each high school pyramid.
7. Abolish mandatory high school marching band.
8. Limit teacher training sessions and similar activities to teacher workdays, so it is not necessary to use substitutes to cover classes while teachers participate in these activities.
9. End requirement that AP or IB students take the AP or IB test as part of the class. If students want college credit for the course they would have to pay to take the tests.
10. Limit Child Find, FECEP and similar programs to what is required under Federal and Virginia law. Abolish Early Head Start and EHS Child Care.
11. Severely limit all personal service consultant contracts and prohibit supplemental deferred compensation provisions in all school contracts.
12. Require that the BOS be given a veto right over certain contracts.
13. Abolish the ACE Senior Citizen discounts and waivers. Require prepayment for all ACE classes and require that the fees cover all costs of ACE including admin.
(Some of these may be funded through the County rather than FCPS)

One of the best things we can do to reduce costs is to bring back the F, and truth in grades generally. Grades are not an evaluation of the student generally. They don't exist to serve some broad societal function. They exist to show how well the kid has mastered the subject material. Giving a kid who is struggling a higher grade than the kid deserves is masking the kid's inadequate progress. Giving a kid a passing grade when the kid lacks a basic mastery of the subject matter is simply passing the problem on to teachers in higher grades, where those future teachers will have to give the inadequately prepared students a disproportionate amount of attention. I suspect a teacher can more easily handle a classroom of 30 or more adequately prepared students than a classroom of 25 students of whom 10 were not adequately prepared and another 5 are marginally prepared. This reform would also allow us to modify attendance and disciplinary policies. Under the current system a well behaved student who has mastered the material risks flunking classes or grades due to non-attendance, but a student who misbehaves will get additional school resources allocated to him in an effort to keep the kid from flunking classes.

Under the principal that sometimes you have to spend money to save money there are a couple of programs I would ADD. The first would be to set up at least one, possibly two Spanish language FCPS charter schools that would be intended for kids who don't speak English AND who are not able to do grade level work even in Spanish. These are the kids who are most likely to strain both classroom teacher and ESL resources. The other program would be a FCPS/Code Enforcement matching program, where FCPS data can be used by Code Enforcement to identify possible illegal housing situations, and where Code Enforcement could also identify possible situations where kids are improperly registered for FCPS.

Bill.N. Wrote:
> I would put most of those on the table. However I
> want to know the avoidable costs [what are the "avoidable costs"?] to FCPS before
> making a final evaluation on some of these, and I
> believe a couple of those are mandated by Federal
> or Virginia law. You left off a number of obvious
> targets:
>
> 1. Abolish extra freebies for kids on F&RL. [I'm not aware of any "extra freebies" - what are these?]
> 2. Abolish Summer SACC [Summer Learning Programs FY17 budget is $5.8M - great suggestion]
> 3. Abolish County provided transportation to
> schools other than student's base school, except
> for TJHSST. If your kid is attending a school
> other than the base school for the kid's
> neighborhood, you are driving. [already done - you can get a seat on a bus IF there is room available but otherwise, any pupil placement means you provide your own transportation (excludes AAP, Special Education and TJ)]
> 4. Abolish remedial programs at TJ. It makes no
> sense letting in kids who need special help when
> there are qualified students who could do the work [I can't find any reference to remedial programs in the Program Budget or elsewhere, and am surprised that the admitted students would need remedial support. The 4 FTE working on admissions to TJ could be cut and the test fees should be borne by the applicants.]
> without help.
> 5. Abolish TJHSST Summer School. [the costs for this are fully offset by grant funding - no cost to FCPS]
> 6. Delay the start of the AAP center school
> programs to 4th grade and reduce the number of
> centers to not more than one for each high school
> pyramid. [reducing the number of centers increases the transportation costs. There is room for rationalization of the centers with school based AAP instruction. I agree on delaying to 4th grade but the cost savings are not great e.g. the budget for elementary magnet schools is $1M p.a.]
> 7. Abolish mandatory high school marching band. [how much can this save??]
> 8. Limit teacher training sessions and similar
> activities to teacher workdays, so it is not
> necessary to use substitutes to cover classes
> while teachers participate in these activities. [yes, but not for savings (subs make $15-20/hr) but for continuity of teaching]
> 9. End requirement that AP or IB students take the
> AP or IB test as part of the class. If students
> want college credit for the course they would have
> to pay to take the tests. [this proposal would discourage students from taking AP/IB courses. While we spend $24,000 on average for Special Ed students and spend $$$ on TJ, is it equitable to cut the several hundred dollars per student (and only incurred in 11/12th grade) in AP/IB. I commend those students for working hard and achieving excellence and argue that this is the student cohort where we should focus energy, resources and teaching.]
> 10. Limit Child Find, FECEP and similar programs [yes - see my list]
> to what is required under Federal and Virginia
> law. Abolish Early Head Start and EHS Child
> Care. [yes, again]
> 11. Severely limit all personal service consultant
> contracts and prohibit supplemental deferred
> compensation provisions in all school contracts. [I'm unaware of any supplemental deferred compensation unless you mean the ERFC benefits]
> 12. Require that the BOS be given a veto right
> over certain contracts. [How would this help? The SB has the right to establish all contracting policies and authorities. But it is an area that needs attention. Losing the General and Deputy Auditor and having no experienced person to assume those duties, nor any real experience in the SB Audit Committee is an issue.]
> 13. Abolish the ACE Senior Citizen discounts and
> waivers. Require prepayment for all ACE classes
> and require that the fees cover all costs of ACE
> including admin.
> (Some of these may be funded through the County
> rather than FCPS) [ACE costs FCPS $0.2M annually.]
>
> One of the best things we can do to reduce costs
> is to bring back the F, and truth in grades
> generally. Grades are not an evaluation of the
> student generally. They don't exist to serve some
> broad societal function. They exist to show how
> well the kid has mastered the subject material.
> Giving a kid who is struggling a higher grade than
> the kid deserves is masking the kid's inadequate
> progress. Giving a kid a passing grade when the
> kid lacks a basic mastery of the subject matter is
> simply passing the problem on to teachers in
> higher grades, where those future teachers will
> have to give the inadequately prepared students a
> disproportionate amount of attention. I suspect a
> teacher can more easily handle a classroom of 30
> or more adequately prepared students than a
> classroom of 25 students of whom 10 were not
> adequately prepared and another 5 are marginally
> prepared. This reform would also allow us to
> modify attendance and disciplinary policies.
> Under the current system a well behaved student
> who has mastered the material risks flunking
> classes or grades due to non-attendance, but a
> student who misbehaves will get additional school
> resources allocated to him in an effort to keep
> the kid from flunking classes. [yes, grading policy is under review and the risk of 'social promotion' is one that gets some, but not enough, attention. I refer to it as the "soft bigotry of low expectations" (M. Gerson). Your hypothetical of a mature, successful student flunking out for attendance problems is not accurate.]
>
> Under the principal [principle] that sometimes you have to
> spend money to save money there are a couple of
> programs I would ADD. The first would be to set
> up at least one, possibly two Spanish language
> FCPS charter schools that would be intended for
> kids who don't speak English AND who are not able
> to do grade level work even in Spanish. These are
> the kids who are most likely to strain both
> classroom teacher and ESL resources. [another view is that concentration of these kids delays integration and the support of learning a new language. It also costs a lot to transport these kids further. Instead, I suggest limiting ESOL to 3 yrs and then you jump into class with everyone else and work.] The other
> program would be a FCPS/Code Enforcement matching
> program, where FCPS data can be used by Code
> Enforcement to identify possible illegal housing
> situations, and where Code Enforcement could also
> identify possible situations where kids are
> improperly registered for FCPS. [Given that the Supreme Court has directed that school systems have to educate any kids (regardless of immigration status) is this a big issue?? Are kids living in group homes to get access to FCPS over Loudon or PW or Alexandria? Is this a county issue of encouraging Police to enforce Code? If the kid lives here then FCPS must educate hiim/her. I don't know what the scale of this issue is.]

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I'll bring up Summer SACC as this looks like a big budget item. Let me know if you come up with any other ideas.

You've obviously got better data than I do at the moment, so just a few comments.

1. I am aware the TJ Partnership fund provides grants for the TJ Middle School program, but I have never seen anything indicating the cost of the TJ Summer School program is underwritten by grant money that could not be allocated to other purposes. Do you have a source on this?

2. In many instances where Fairfax County imposes fees on students, there is a waiver for kids on free and reduced lunches. This is what I am talking about by "freebies". They probably don't show up as a separate budget item because they represent a reduction in revenue rather than an expenditure.

3. I doubt you will find specific budget references to remediation, but it does show up in TJHSST Literature. For example "How does the system of support
individualize interventions and differentiate instruction for identified students whose pace/style of learning differs in some way?" (From TJ Self Assessment)

4. You say FCPS has already abolished County provided transportation for attending schools other than base schools except for TJ, and then expressly add in transportation for special ed and AAP centers. Not the same thing. Even if Federal law requires FCPS provide transportation for special ed, the Fairfax AAP center program has long since ceased being a special ed program and should be treated as any other alternative school for purposes of transportation. This is one of the buried costs associated with the AAP program.

I also think FCPS could do a better job identifying families who live outside of Fairfax faking addresses to attend FCPS schools.

Regarding Bill N.'s comment about not providing transportation to AAP centers-this specialized curriculum is for students who require this level of education. This is a lot different than a program that a child "wants" to do. The schools are required by state law to offer an educational program/specialized services for students identified as gifted. This is necessary for them to develop properly and in some instances this is essential to their physical and emotional safety. If these services cannot be provided at the base school, and the school system decides that it makes more sense economically to bring these kids together at a joint center, then they have to provide the transportation. If they refused to transport them, then this would impede their access to education that is essential to their development. They can't discriminate and say they will only transport kids with an IQ of less than 140, for example, and tell the other parents they have to make their own arrangements. This is no different than a severely disabled child being transported to a special school. Do you think parents should be told to make their own arrangments for that, also?

Gifted education IS special ed. Very much so.

I am familiar with the requirements for gifted students under Virginia law. In my experience from being in FCAG and with the Fairfax GT/AAP program, the population in AAP Level IV significantly exceeds those who Virginia law mandates receive gifted instruction. (The regulations say "REQUIRES" and not simply "WOULD BENEFIT FROM".) That makes Level IV for most students an option little different than magnate schools and other pupil placement arrangements. I realize that this is a "Sacred Cow" for many politically connected or politically motivated parents, which may make taking it on politically unacceptable. That may mean it isn't a realistic cut, but it does not mean it isn't a legitimate cut.

Agreed: FCPS should be far more aggressive in identifying students who do not live in the county. Families buy mega mansions in Loudoun county and their children either drive or are driven in RT 50 or 7. They get away with it as they sometimes keep the older house to rent out, or have family members supply a mailing address. There are also foreign students who live with "guardians" to enjoy an FCPS education. Then we have the DC residents who metro into Vienna and attend Oakton. Let them all pay the hefty out of county tuition.

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am familiar with the requirements for gifted
> students under Virginia law. In my experience
> from being in FCAG and with the Fairfax GT/AAP
> program, the population in AAP Level IV
> significantly exceeds those who Virginia law
> mandates receive gifted instruction. (The
> regulations say "REQUIRES" and not simply "WOULD
> BENEFIT FROM".) That makes Level IV for most
> students an option little different than magnate
> schools and other pupil placement arrangements. I
> realize that this is a "Sacred Cow" for many
> politically connected or politically motivated
> parents, which may make taking it on politically
> unacceptable. That may mean it isn't a realistic
> cut, but it does not mean it isn't a legitimate
> cut.

I am neither politically connected or motivated. I am a parent who had to get their child, who I didn't even know was gifted, out of a regular classroom immediately because they were being bullied and crying their way through the school day and at home because they didn't fit in, were bored, and the teacher bless her heart simply did not have the time to design a whole separate curriculum for a child who was four years ahead of the other kids. I do not blame the teacher. I blame the group testing process that missed my child. A very expensive IQ test and analysis later taught me some important lessons. I paid for this mostly out of pocket, and it was well worth it. I had other battles when we had to switch school systems due to job transfers. That test was my child's ticket to ride. I didn't do all this to be one of those obnoxious parents. I know the type well. I did this because I had a parental responsibility to make sure my child received the appropriate education that she was entitled to. Gifted programs saved my daughter's life and secured her future, and I will take on anybody who tries to tell me that these services are optional, elitist, etc. When you have a truly gifted child they are essential.

I agree that the criteria for gifted services might be getting watered down. But for those of us who have truly gifted children and have learned that you have to fight for their rights and protect them from dangerous situations, because they are too young to handle this for themselves, they are a Godsend. And they can damn well provide transportation for these kids.

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You've obviously got better data than I do at the moment, so just a few comments.

1. I am aware the TJ Partnership fund provides grants for the TJ Middle School program, but I have never seen anything indicating the cost of the TJ Summer School program is underwritten by grant money that could not be allocated to other purposes. Do you have a source on this? [Program Budget p. 145 see here:https://www.fcps.edu/sites/default/files/media/pdf/FY-2017-Program-Budget.pdf]

2. In many instances where Fairfax County imposes fees on students, there is a waiver for kids on free and reduced lunches. This is what I am talking about by "freebies". They probably don't show up as a separate budget item because they
represent a reduction in revenue rather than an expenditure. [FRM qualifies at up to 1.8X poverty level or ~$48,000 for a family of 4. I expect that the fee reductions for FRM are small but they are not separately identified in the budget documents.]
3. I doubt you will find specific budget references to remediation, but it does show up in TJHSST Literature. For example "How does the system of support
individualize interventions and differentiate instruction for identified students whose pace/style of learning differs in some way?" (From TJ Self Assessment) [this sounds like adapting instruction to accommodate learning styles but does not mean (necessarily) "remediation". Given the competitive nature of TJ admissions, I would be surprised to find a need for remediation.]
4. You say FCPS has already abolished County provided transportation for attending schools other than base schools except for TJ, and then expressly add in transportation for special ed and AAP centers. Not the same thing. Even if Federal law requires FCPS provide transportation for special ed, the Fairfax AAP center program has long since ceased being a special ed program and should be treated as any other alternative school for purposes of transportation. This is one of the buried costs associated with the AAP program. [Agreed, AAP is difficult as the Centers necessitate transportation, but offering classes in schools means higher staffing requirements and/or insufficient student interest to warrant providing a class.]

[The comments of the GT parent are instructive. Many parents, of all kinds of kids, believe that their kid is entitled to some service. There is a limited amount of money. How do we rank the "equity" of providing $12,000 of services to a regular kid and $24,000 to a special ed kid and $18,000 to a TJ kid and $16,000 to a GT kid...?? Comments such as "they can damn well provide ___ for these kids." represent the raw emotional self-righteousness that make reaching an equitable distribution of funds and services a challenge.]

[The comments of the GT parent are instructive. Many parents, of all kinds of kids, believe that their kid is entitled to some service. There is a limited amount of money. How do we rank the "equity" of providing $12,000 of services to a regular kid and $24,000 to a special ed kid and $18,000 to a TJ kid and $16,000 to a GT kid...?? Comments such as "they can damn well provide ___ for these kids." represent the raw emotional self-righteousness that make reaching an equitable distribution of funds and services a challenge.]



Self-righteous my ass. If they can spend $24,000 a year on a kid who can't even carry on a conversation and will never be able to work, they can spend $16,000 on kids who have the potential to be a doctor, a scientist, find the cure for cancer/Alzheimer's, etc. Grouping them together, either at the base school or clustering them in a joint school, is usually the most cost-effective way. They have to provide teachers anyway, and that is the bulk of the costs. Yes, they need transportation. Oh well.

from Wikipedia: Self-righteousness (also called sanctimoniousness, sententiousness, and holier-than-thou attitudes[1][2]) is a feeling or display of (usually smug) moral superiority[3] derived from a sense that one's beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person. Self-righteous individuals are often intolerant of the opinions and behaviors of others.

Your opinion: "If they can spend $24,000 a year on a kid who can't even carry on a conversation and will never be able to work, they can spend $16,000 on kids who have the potential to be a doctor, a scientist, find the cure for cancer/Alzheimer's, etc." is perfectly valid. I hear a similar assertion from the parent of the special education child who requires $12,450 of transportation services in addition to $24,000 in base services. It just goes to show how emotional, assertive and self-referential the whole debate over allocation of dollars can become.

You suggestion to focus on "cost-effective" is very useful. Said another way, how much should the community spend on children who are not able to be economically productive, especially where spending that favors these non-economically productive students dis-favors those students who have the potential to be very economically productive? I suggest that we need to shift some funds to providing more and better teachers for the large majority of our students not deemed as special ed. Discuss...

This discussion indicates why cutting the cost of education is so difficult. The enemy isn't simply the self-serving members of the education profession who are trying to protect their turf and squeeze additional funds out of the system. The enemy is also individual parents who insist that the PUBLIC school system meet the specific needs and interest of their particular children. If we want an affordable education system, we need to stand up to both of these groups.

I saw in a news story today that FCPS has cut 500 million from their budget since 2008. Since the proposed 2018 budget is 2.8 billion - that means without the cuts it would have been 3.3 billion.

I don't know the article you are referring to, so I cannot comment on it specifically. As a general matter though I'd like to know whether these alleged savings come from real cuts in spending, whether they represent reductions in spending increases, or whether they actually represent shifts in spending that had no overall dollar effect.

Picking the pockets of home owners with the outrages tax increases has been going on for over a decade. They are now using the personal property tax to feed the beast. They appraised the new car I bought in January $1800 more than I paid for it!!!

The Fairfax County car tax rate is 4.57% and has been for years. Virginia law requires that cars be valued using a recognized price guide. Fairfax County uses the Eastern Edition of NADA’s Official Used Car Guide's clean trade-in value published in the January edition of the pricing guide as it has for years. There has been no change in either the rate or methodology of the car tax.

Keep Sports and JROTC. The Rest of um are Gobbly Wobbly Crap..Gobblin Up Cash..Stop The Waste of Dollars down the drain .As its all about "Perpetuation of the Education Profession" with this junk..

DAJAX..