FCPS Board may decide to close Clifton Elementary rather than do the necessary renovations, as previously planned, and approved by voters.

The school is surrounded by very few students close by. It would be better to bus the kids living out there to neighboring schools.

We are in a recession, aren't we?

Besides, if the school is in total disrepair and there are very few students in the vicinity, how much of a loss is this?

I would think parents would like to see their kids going to school in a building that isn't going to risk their health or cause autism or whatever worry is the fear du jour.

I have to ask, what do you mean by "approved by voters?" Because even if there were a bond referendum passed by voters, that isn't "approving repairs", like most people are tricked into believing. Bond referendums are not like propositions in California, they are just like the title says, BOND referendums -- you aren't voting for or against whatever the bond pays for, you are voting for or against selling BONDS, or taking on debt, in order to pay for that project.

In other words, if you vote "yes" for a bond for more parks, you are not voting yes for more parks, that has already been approved by the county board. You are simply voting yes to take on debt to pay for the parks. Granted, the board may reverse their decision to build more parks if they don't want to use general funds after being voted down on taking on debt in the form of bonds, but they can also reverse their decision even if given the go ahead to sell debt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2009 01:25AM by Thurston Moore.

I'm sure the rich parents of Clifton will object for some reason.

Here's FCPS' report: http://fcps.edu/news/documents/FeasibilityStudyCliftonandSWFC.pdf

Some interesting difficulties with Clifton ES that basically means it will cost a lot to renovate it. It looks to be cheaper to build a new elementary school especially since they have plenty of land next to Liberty MS.

Some valid arguments for not renovating Clifton ES (not BS like for building Gatehouse II):
-The school does not have a public water connection. If the school was renovated, it would require the installation of fire sprinklers. The same code that requires their installation also says the water source for the fire sprinklers cannot be a well, which is what the school has. Connectng to public water supply would cost 3 million dollars, says FCPS. There is also no fire hydrants.

-The school is on top of a cliff. There is no room to expand the school sideways or towards the parking lot. They claim it would be expensive to build in the courtyard and there is a hill right behind the school so going that way is limited. I do wonder if they could do it like terra set/terra center ES and build the school under the hill.

-There is not a lot of space to put classroom trailers while the school is undergoing renovation



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2009 01:37AM by KeepOnTruckin.

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sure the rich parents of Clifton will object
> for some reason.
>

Of course they will. Even lower middle class parents get all hot under the collar over anything the school board does. This is a passionate topic. "it's about the children!!"

> Some valid arguments for not renovating Clifton ES
> (not BS like for building Gatehouse II):
> -The school does not have a public water
> connection. If the school was renovated, it would
> require the installation of fire sprinklers. The
> same code that requires their installation also
> says the water source for the fire sprinklers
> cannot be a well, which is what the school has.
> Connectng to public water supply would cost 3
> million dollars, says FCPS. There is also no fire
> hydrants.
>

Bingo. There it is. Cheaper to build a new school. DONE.

> -The school is on top of a cliff. There is no room
> to expand the school sideways or towards the

it's on a cliff????!?!?! Oh NoZ! My child could fall off a fucking godammned cliff? Get him out of there right now!!! This is unsafe and my family attorney is investigating lawsuits right now!!! DANGER! DANGER! DANGER! How irresponsible can anyone be? My little Johnny is precious, and if anything happens to him, I'll be devastated. I can't have him die, I enjoy being a helicopter parent. Neuroticism runs in my family, and I need Johnny to grow up to be neurotic, too!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2009 02:58AM by Thurston Moore.

Some facts about Clifton Elem.

1st: The school currently has 375 students.

2nd: The school is not in total disrepair. The main issue the FCPS Board has is the water. It is the only school in the county on well water. To connect to the Fairfax Water Authority water grid, it will cost approx. 1.5-2 million. The closest connection site is 2.4 miles away from the school. According to the study posted on the county website.

There is also, according to the FCPS website, $19 million already approved for renovations at the school, which would more than cover hooking up to public water and the renovations, thereby eliminating most of their arguments for closing the school.

3rd: Clifton Elementary received the Governor's Award for Excellence last year. It was 1 of 20 schools in the county to receive this award.

4th: Clifton Elementary consistently scores, on average, 10% higher than Fairfax County averages on test scores.

5th: The students at Clifton Elementary are excelling, because it is a small school where each child gets individual attention.

I do agree that another school needs to be built. The schools in Centreville are terribly overcrowded, and expected by 2014 to be even worse. A new school should be built to help alleviate that problem.

On the other hand, Clifton Elementary is expected to have almost the same enrollment in 2014 that it has now. The reason for this is because this area can not be developed further.

It makes more sense in the long run to renovate Clifton Elementary and preserve the stability of that school, AND build a new school which will accomodate the growing populations in neighboring schools for at least a little while. Instead of building a new school, and have it over capacity before it even opens. e.g. South County

Water? Who needs city water?

Couldn't the swells down there swing little designer Perrier backpacks? Maybe 5 gallons....enough for precious to drink and flush the potty with.

Or park a Perrier tanker truck out in the parking lot?

Or maybe Trummer's could cater?

The resourceful Clifton folk can come up with something!

Clifton School needs to stay. It does not make sense to spend tens of millions of dollars on a new school when you could spend a fraction of that making the needed renovations to the old one. This boils down to the board wanting to play with the taxpayers money. It reminds me of a city building a "needed" $600 million sports stadium when the old stadium becomes 25 years old. Yes, a new school will pay for itself...maybe by the year 2080. However, FFX CO. has a current tax base crisis...lets not add to that by making a stupid decision by building schools that we do not need.

Let me guess. You are one of the same people who bitch that the FFX County Commissioners don't have the balls to cut expenses. Correct?

I would hate to see Clifton Elementary close for various reasons. The school board is has a meeting July 13th and Clifton Elementary is on the agenda. Parents should attend and make their opinions heard.


http://www.fcps.edu/news/swcountyschls.htm

If Clifton parents want their school so badly, why not create a small tax district to help support it?

With that said, how much would it cost to construct a water storage tank with however much water is needed, cart in said water, and then use the tank to power the sprinklers?

http://examiner.gmnews.com/news/2007/0201/Front_page/003.html

"Roberts contacted Chicago Bridge and Iron, which she said is one of the largest water tower builders in the country. Roberts said a 200,000-gallon water tower would cost approximately $690,000, and a 100,000-gallon tank would cost $575,000. She said the price of steel has risen a great deal over the past few years, as has the cost of concrete, which is needed for the footing."

So let's say 800,000 to build a water tank and then 200,000 to bring in the water. For 1/3 of the cost of connecting just CES to the FCWA grid, said water tower could even help out the good folks of the Clifton area during droughts as well.

South Lakes had a small student population that could have been accommodated at other schools (especially since Langley was getting an addition). Yet the school board refused to consider closing it. Instead, they spent a fortune renovating South Lakes, then redistricted it to swallow up neighborhoods that would improve its demographics. Likewise, Luther Jackson MS was underenrolled, so the school board built an addition, announced that it was now a GT center, and redistricted Vienna to the new GT center, which, coincidentally enough, would significantly improve the demographics at Jackson.

It looks like their motives are the same regarding Clifton, even if it involves treating that school exactly the opposite way. Clifton must be closed so that their children can be exported to improve the demographics at other schools.

The only people that aren't treated that way are the ones that go to Langley and South County. Everyone in the middle is just fodder for demographic balancing.

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sure the rich parents of Clifton will object
> for some reason.
>
> Here's FCPS' report:
> http://fcps.edu/news/documents/FeasibilityStudyCli
> ftonandSWFC.pdf
>
> Some interesting difficulties with Clifton ES that
> basically means it will cost a lot to renovate it.
> It looks to be cheaper to build a new elementary
> school especially since they have plenty of land
> next to Liberty MS.
>
> Some valid arguments for not renovating Clifton ES
> (not BS like for building Gatehouse II):
> -The school does not have a public water
> connection. If the school was renovated, it would
> require the installation of fire sprinklers. The
> same code that requires their installation also
> says the water source for the fire sprinklers
> cannot be a well, which is what the school has.
> Connectng to public water supply would cost 3
> million dollars, says FCPS. There is also no fire
> hydrants.
>
> -The school is on top of a cliff. There is no room
> to expand the school sideways or towards the
> parking lot. They claim it would be expensive to
> build in the courtyard and there is a hill right
> behind the school so going that way is limited. I
> do wonder if they could do it like terra set/terra
> center ES and build the school under the hill.
>
> -There is not a lot of space to put classroom
> trailers while the school is undergoing renovation

Clifton E S is doomed. Does anyone know where the original CLifton E S was located?

I personally think they should keep a Clifton Elementary and not bus kids off to other schools and further cause overcrowding and community massacring issues but instead build a new elementary school or renovate the current one.

It's the concept of a Clifton Elementary the Clifton Community needs not the current building necessarily.

Clifton residents want the small school setting that allows children the ability to excel to their fullest. They want the school, to keep the community connected, and to keep this unique pocket of Fairfax County we know as Clifton to stay as rustic,small, and un-urbanized or should I say un-sububranized as possible.

Thats the way Clifton keeps its charm.

This is coming from a Fairfax Station (yet basically Clifton) resident and graduate from Clifton Elementary School; a school I love and cherish still to this day.

But to all of you who aren't for this school and its existence. Go ahead, knock down a historic community icon of the area; it'll cost just as much to demolish it as to renovate/rebuild it with the BILLIONS of dollars stimulus money we have to tap into. Please people use your brains here.

I understand why people say it's unfixable, but how hard is to dig a hole in the ground to get water? Install sprinklers into a building? Replace moldy carpet with tile or widen the school to the various areas (even if that means the surrounding hills) surrounding the school?

The answer: It's not.

Please, if there are any Clifton Residents or people who oppose the destruction of this school and what it stands for please let your voices and opinions be heard NOW.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 11:43AM by RobertGreyberg.

RobertGreyberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I personally think they should keep a Clifton
> Elementary and not bus kids off to other schools
> and further cause overcrowding and community
> massacring issues but instead build a new
> elementary school or renovate the current one.
>
> It's the concept of a Clifton Elementary the
> Clifton Community needs not the current building
> necessarily.
>
> Clifton residents want the small school setting
> that allows children the ability to excel to their
> fullest. They want the school, to keep the
> community connected, and to keep this unique
> pocket of Fairfax County we know as Clifton to as
> stay rustic and small and un-urbanized or should I
> say un-sububranized as possible.
>
> Thats the way Clifton keeps its charm.
>
> This is coming from a Fairfax Station (yet
> basically Clifton) resident and graduate from
> Clifton Elementary School; a school I love and
> cherish still to this day.
>
> But to all of you who aren't for this school and
> its existence. Go ahead, knock down a historic
> community icon of the area; it'll cost just as
> much to demolish it as to renovate/rebuild it with
> the BILLIONS of dollars stimulus money we have to
> tap into. Please people use your brains here.
>
> I understand why people say it's unfixable, but
> how hard is to dig a hole in the ground to get
> water? Install sprinklers into a building? Replace
> moldy carpet with tile or widen the school to the
> various areas (even if that means the surrounding
> hills) surrounding the school?
>
> The answer: It's not.
>
> Please, if there are any Clifton Residents or
> people who oppose the destruction of this school
> and what it stands for please let your voices and
> opinions be heard NOW.


Thank you! you hit the nail on the head. For those interested in helping us show our support to keep the school open, there is a meeting tomorrow at 8115 Gatehouse Rd. Rm. 1600, Falls Church. The Board will be discussing Clifton ES at 3:30. We are asking everyone supporting to keep the school open to wear RED, Clifton ES's color.

I wish there had been something mailed out to Clifton Elementary parents about this. All I saw was an article in the Connection. Nothing from the school, PTA, etc. There really needs to be some organizing of parents protesting this move. Losing our neighborhood school would be a big downfall for our town.

Clifton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is also, according to the FCPS website, $19
> million already approved for renovations at the
> school, which would more than cover hooking up to
> public water and the renovations, thereby
> eliminating most of their arguments for closing
> the school.

Wow, over $50,000 per student! Why not just send the kids to a private school for 7 years, it would be much cheaper.


> On the other hand, Clifton Elementary is expected
> to have almost the same enrollment in 2014 that it
> has now. The reason for this is because this area
> can not be developed further.

I think this is probably the biggest reason for closing the school. The school is only going to become more and more expensive to run, every year, and require 20 million dollar renovations every once in a while, but the number of students served is static (and eventually will decline), and thus inflation is working against the school.

It's sad that those with extra money are also going to lose out on the good fortune of having their children schooled exclusively at taxpayer expense while the rest are schooled in overcrowded schools. But I just don't have any sympathy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2009 10:45PM by Thurston Moore.

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clifton parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is also, according to the FCPS website,
> $19
> > million already approved for renovations at the
> > school, which would more than cover hooking up
> to
> > public water and the renovations, thereby
> > eliminating most of their arguments for closing
> > the school.
>
> Wow, over $50,000 per student! Why not just send
> the kids to a private school for 7 years, it would
> be much cheaper.
>
>
> > On the other hand, Clifton Elementary is
> expected
> > to have almost the same enrollment in 2014 that
> it
> > has now. The reason for this is because this
> area
> > can not be developed further.
>
> I think this is probably the biggest reason for
> closing the school. The school is only going to
> become more and more expensive to run, every year,
> and require 20 million dollar renovations every
> once in a while, but the number of students served
> is static (and eventually will decline), and thus
> inflation is working against the school.
>
> It's sad that those with extra money are also
> going to lose out on the good fortune of having
> their children schooled exclusively at taxpayer
> expense while the rest are schooled in overcrowded
> schools. But I just don't have any sympathy.

You clearly didn't read the whole study. Because if you had, you would know that the entire study is a contradiction of itself. On page 14 of the study, it states that the renovations would cost approximately $35,500 per student, which is comparable to other school renovations currently taking place countywide.

If you're upset that the school board won't help your overcrowded schools, then tell them. There should be new a new school built to help the overcrowding. But there are schools adjacent to the schools which are overcrowded that have room for more students. Those schools are much closer to the schools that are overcrowded than the site next to Liberty Middle School.

Don't be fooled. Demographics is the only issue. Look at the statistics in the fcps report. Clifton ES is 78% white. All the other schools listed have much more diverse school populations. The county wants to mix them up. The people of Clifton want to keep it separate.

Clifton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You clearly didn't read the whole study. Because
> if you had, you would know that the entire study
> is a contradiction of itself. On page 14 of the
> study, it states that the renovations would cost
> approximately $35,500 per student, which is
> comparable to other school renovations currently
> taking place countywide.

I just did the math according to your original comment. 375 students, 19 million dollars, $50,666 per student.

>
> If you're upset that the school board won't help
> your overcrowded schools, then tell them. There
> should be new a new school built to help the
> overcrowding. But there are schools adjacent to
> the schools which are overcrowded that have room
> for more students. Those schools are much closer
> to the schools that are overcrowded than the site
> next to Liberty Middle School.

You aren't going to get very much sympathy when people realize that this is about protecting a special entitlement that the people of Clifton fight hard to protect (I'm sure you guys fight any time they propose widening the district boundaries to include "undesirable" children in your precious little school. I bet allowing parts of Fairfax Station was seen as an affront to your special elitist school.)

The report seems to be poorly proofread especially on page 12 at the bottom where it discusses why the school cannot be expanded laterally.

It also contradicts itself on the sewage system. first it says the school has a sewer line which runs to the town's pump and haul tank in the park. But then it says the school has a septic system between the school and the ball fields. Which is it?

this map says it has a sewer system: http://www.esri.com/mapmuseum/mapbook_gallery/volume21/images/large/ww-119a.jpg


4th: Clifton Elementary consistently scores, on average, 10% higher than Fairfax County averages on test scores.

5th: The students at Clifton Elementary are excelling, because it is a small school where each child gets individual attention.

The test scores are higher becuase the school is all white kids from a rich area where everyone speaks english and can read. Thats why they get good grades, test scores, and are excelling.

I don't think race truly has a part of it, I think the social atmosphere does though. Yes, Clifton is an area whose residents consist mainly of white upper middle class-wealthy families who support good family values, morals, and the good upbringing of their children.

This therefore vastly excludes negative influences from leaking into the Clifton area, and therefore causing no harm to its residents, and its schools (until they are shipped off to the overcrowded and lower income area schools). Such negative influences that Clifton lacks for example are drugs and gangs.

Clifton doesn't have gangs, nor does it have a bad drug problem. While we are talking about an elementary school here, if there was a Clifton high school to be invented it would probably be another Langley High School, where such negative influences aren't as common and instead academic success and a strong sense of community are common.

Don't blame Clifton residents and their kids for being decent people. Maybe there can be a lesson learned from Clifton Elementary and the Clifton Community model. A small school, with the right types of good and moral abiding wholesome families, in a strong and connected community can produce excellent results for its residents.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 11:41AM by RobertGreyberg.

Fairfax Whiners - "Don't raise my taxes! Don't cut any spending that impacts me! Do your jobs! Waaaaaaa!"

Well there would be a lot less complaining if the county actually did their jobs and didn't screw things up all the time. If there is one thing Fairfax County Public Schools should be proud of it is Clifton Elementary and its students.

RobertGreyberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well there would be a lot less complaining if the
> county actually did their jobs and didn't screw
> things up all the time. If there is one thing
> Fairfax County Public Schools should be proud of
> it is Clifton Elementary and its students.


If it's half empty and the building costs too much to repair, this makes perfect sense.

"If there is one thing Fairfax County Public Schools should be proud of it is Clifton Elementary and its students."


False. Utterly and completely false. Clifton's success is in spite of, not because of,the Fairf County Public School system. The Clinfton community, schools included, will continue to be peaceful and prosperous and long as it continues to be a white community (like Langley). When diversity rears its ugly and hateful head in Clifton, that will be the end of Clifton (just like Annandale, Arlington, Falls Church, and Springfield).

So you're suggesting to bring back segregation then?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 12:05PM by RobertGreyberg.

Spare me your sanctimonious posturing pal, it fools only yourself.

Perhaps you would like to fly the Confederate Flag at all these "white" schools also huh????

Loft Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If there is one thing Fairfax County Public
> Schools should be proud of it is Clifton
> Elementary and its students."
>
>
> False. Utterly and completely false. Clifton's
> success is in spite of, not because of,the Fairf
> County Public School system. The Clinfton
> community, schools included, will continue to be
> peaceful and prosperous and long as it continues
> to be a white community (like Langley). When
> diversity rears its ugly and hateful head in
> Clifton, that will be the end of Clifton (just
> like Annandale, Arlington, Falls Church, and
> Springfield).

In other words, multi-culturalism is a doomed endeavor and we should return to the norms of the past 8,000 years -- i.e. being suspicious of 'the other.'

As the previous poster just stated, that is a practice known as racism and racial segregation.

Look you could be White, Black, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, Asian, whatever the race, as long as you have good morals, a good upbringing, and are shielded from negative influences and are put in the right academic and social environment then you'll be fine.

The environment kids are put in is the problem not the ethnicity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 12:20PM by RobertGreyberg.

RobertGreyberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't blame Clifton residents and their kids for
> being decent people. Maybe there can be a lesson
> learned from Clifton Elementary and the Clifton
> Community model. A small school, with the right
> types of good and moral abiding wholesome
> families, in a strong and connected community can
> produce excellent results for its residents.


So what do we do then with the others, who happen to be hispanic and/or black?
Its not racist, it just happens to involve race

Formerhick and Greyberg....I agree that Loft has a fatalistic approach. But at some level he is speaking to some uncomfortable truths. Hard to argue with his sanctimonious posturing comment - the statistics to a large extent back up his points.

What is the right response when race is overwhelmingly a proxy for poor academic achievement and conduct, not just in Fairfax but throughout the nation? It is not like the County isn't spending a lot of money to improve achievement and conduct, either.

Parents ought to be tolerant but at what point do their concerns become rational from a statistical perspective? This isn't just an abstract question because when schools reach a tipping point they become unattractive and caring parents do opt out - either through the political process, private school, or whatever other means.

Interested to hear your perspectives.

Fly The Confederate Flag? Absolutely. Perhaps you have never noticed, but George Washington, the Father of Our Country, was a slaveowning secessionist. Oh, and that little secessionists document we call The Declaration of Independence, yup you guessed it; written by a slaveowning secessionist.

I understand what you are saying KeepOnTruckin, you and I as always tend to understand agree on the same concepts in threads. But let me state this.

You're always going to have people of lower incomes/different upbringings in a community and at a school. This isn't the Upper East Side of Manhattan or Greenwich, Connecticut where the whole population is wealthy and well brought up.

These lower income and different upbringing students, therefore once placed in this environment are influenced by the well brought up people they are surrounded by, and excel in the good academic environment they are placed in.

Therefore breaking the low income/different upbringing cycle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 12:35PM by RobertGreyberg.

I remember Clifton in the 50's and 60's....Tobacco Road....shacks.

Many black people (GASP) lived down there! Why do you think those quaint country roads were never improved?

Then, at some point (70's?) some swells that couldn't afford Great Falls/McLean built a big house down there and gentrification was on.

Loft Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fly The Confederate Flag? Absolutely. Perhaps you
> have never noticed, but George Washington, the
> Father of Our Country, was a slaveowning
> secessionist. Oh, and that little secessionists
> document we call The Declaration of Independence,
> yup you guessed it; written by a slaveowning
> secessionist.


Then they drafted the Articles of Confederation and tried it for a decade and concluded..."Fuck. This doesn't work. We need a Union." And thus the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, which were adopted by every state, were born.

Yeah that founding father who wrote that document called the Declaration of Independence, who was a slave owner, hated slaves so much he just had to make one his mistress.

And to answer the poster interesting question's post, I understand what you are saying about the correlation between racial minorities and poor grades, gangs, and drugs.

The problem is not their race. It's their bad upbringing, negative influences, and a lack of a good education.

Education fights ignorance, drugs, and gangs, it does not work though by destroying good schools.

"Then they drafted the Articles of Confederation and tried it for a decade and concluded..."Fuck. This doesn't work. We need a Union." And thus the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, which were adopted by every state, were born."

Quite superficial and quite incomplete, but I'll help you out. The Articles of Confederation had an express declaration of perpetuity and unanimity(article XIII). Nevertheless, the secessionist slaveowners decided, in 1789, to exercise their unalienable right to alter and abolish their government (again in open violation of article XIII), and adopt the Constitution. The Confederates did the same in 1861.

Yeah that founding father who wrote that document called the Declaration of Independence, who was a slave owner, loved slaves so much he just had hold over 300 of them in bondage. Working them to exhaustion in the sweltering Virginia sun, stuffing them into a filthy cramped dirt-floor cabin, raping them, starving them, denying them freedom and liberty. Yeah, a real salve-lover that one.

Well there's no arguing that. Clearly both you and Washington Tone Logian are products of a good education, you certainly know your history.

So let's keep that intelligence up. Save Clifton Elementary!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 01:30PM by RobertGreyberg.

We need a strong showing at the FCPS work session this afternoon in Falls Church. The address is: 8115 Gatehouse Rd. Rm. 1600 Falls Church. The staff is presenting the Feasibility studies to the Board at 3:30. We are asking everyone that comes to the meeting to wear RED to show our support.
This work session is not the time to voice our concerns or opinions, rather just to show how many people are in support of keeping the school open.

Washington Tone Logian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Quite superficial and quite incomplete, but I'll
> help you out. The Articles of Confederation had an
> express declaration of perpetuity and
> unanimity(article XIII). Nevertheless, the
> secessionist slaveowners decided, in 1789, to
> exercise their unalienable right to alter and
> abolish their government (again in open violation
> of article XIII), and adopt the Constitution. The
> Confederates did the same in 1861.

Talk about "incomplete." That would describe your knowledge of Article XIII...

And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.

Did every state agree to the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Yes. Did every state agree to secession and the forming of the Confederacy in 1861? No.

Well I would think if a handful of Clifton parents just brought their check books along to the meeting tonight they could resolve the budget issue quickly and quietly.

No, I kid, but seriously. People pay a lot of money to live in Clifton. They should be privlidged to the cute little school on the hill to send their darlings to. I fear what the alternatives would be.

Save Clifton Elementary. Save the Cardinals. [insert Clifton ES song, forget how it goes]

Gee, for an elitist, oh so intelligent community, you Clifton folks lack street smarts.

Read the FCPS playbook guys.

How the heck do you think the South County crew got their high school and their middle school ahead of all the other schools patiently waiting politely on the CIP?

Look no further than the campaign contributors for Storck and Bradsher.

It does not take much to buy a school board election folks. 10-12 $500 checks to Bradsher and Storck should seal the deal for keeping your school intact.

Bradsher's middle name is "community school"- that was her battle cry for years to get her kids out of the hellhole called Hayfield. Funny that she has been noticeably quiet on this matter in Clifton...

Oh well, whip out the checkbooks guys and get this party started. The FCPS redistricting wheels should come to a grinding halt as soon as your checks have cleared the bank.

Good luck.

Outside Looking In Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well I would think if a handful of Clifton parents
> just brought their check books along to the
> meeting tonight they could resolve the budget
> issue quickly and quietly.
>
> No, I kid, but seriously. People pay a lot of
> money to live in Clifton. They should be
> privlidged to the cute little school on the hill
> to send their darlings to. I fear what the
> alternatives would be.
>
> Save Clifton Elementary. Save the Cardinals.

What would the alternatives be? Union Mill? Pretty good school. Or the dreaded Centreville Elementary? (I see black people!).

Union Mill is a fine school but being the size of Little Rocky Run and the expansion of the surrounding areas I could see space already being at a premium. Other than that, I think someone mentioned a potential building site near Liberty. Both options would be a serious haul for any Cliftonite not living on the C-Ville side of tracks.

But ya, ship um to the ghetto? Trade in those Lacoste polos for some Sean John and Ecko gear, and the Jonas Bros for some Bow-Wow? That would be some shit. Right now the well to do stay at home moms are digesting. The fury will soon turn to a boil. And when they can grab dads attention long enough to get him away from business and his blackberry, crap will really hit the fan and fortunately, for Clifton, the issue will be resolved. These parents will not stand for busing kids out of clifton. We know this. But let the parents have their day in the sun and take on the county resulting in a triumphant win. Then, straight to Trummers for celebratory martinis and steak sliders.

Outside Looking In Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Union Mill is a fine school but being the size of
> Little Rocky Run and the expansion of the
> surrounding areas I could see space already being
> at a premium. Other than that, I think someone
> mentioned a potential building site near Liberty.
> Both options would be a serious haul for any
> Cliftonite not living on the C-Ville side of
> tracks.
>
> But ya, ship um to the ghetto? Trade in those
> Lacoste polos for some Sean John and Ecko gear,
> and the Jonas Bros for some Bow-Wow? That would be
> some shit. Right now the well to do stay at home
> moms are digesting. The fury will soon turn to a
> boil. And when they can grab dads attention long
> enough to get him away from business and his
> blackberry, crap will really hit the fan and
> fortunately, for Clifton, the issue will be
> resolved. These parents will not stand for busing
> kids out of clifton. We know this. But let the
> parents have their day in the sun and take on the
> county resulting in a triumphant win. Then,
> straight to Trummers for celebratory martinis and
> steak sliders.

Worked in Oakton.

I dont think it really matters what happens to the children of Clifton. They will all have decent inheritances to live off of, so they should be spending more time down at 8 acre, or the Peterson ice cream depot, where the milfs go and its just as fun as Neverland. From what I hear....

"Talk about "incomplete." That would describe your knowledge of Article XIII...

And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.

Did every state agree to the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Yes. Did every state agree to secession and the forming of the Confederacy in 1861?"


Cheese and phukking crackers, are you truly this ignorant? Rhode Island, you brainless schlub, deliberately DID NOT SEND ANY DELEGATES to the constitutional convention. Accordingly, under Article XIII, the convention was utterly without authority to proceed; they did anyway. Moreover, you obtuse dolt, Article VII of the U.S. Constitution provides that when nine States had ratified, the constituion became binding and effective. When the ninth state had ratified (New Hampshire) Rhode Island still had not. This means, you contemptible moron, that the states lawlessly seceded from the AoC and adopted the Constitution.

PS- And every State most certainly agreed to form the C.S.A.

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Cheese and phukking crackers, are you truly this
> ignorant? Rhode Island, you brainless schlub,
> deliberately DID NOT SEND ANY DELEGATES to the
> constitutional convention. Accordingly, under
> Article XIII, the convention was utterly without
> authority to proceed; they did anyway. Moreover,
> you obtuse dolt, Article VII of the U.S.
> Constitution provides that when nine States had
> ratified, the constituion became binding and
> effective. When the ninth state had ratified (New
> Hampshire) Rhode Island still had not. This means,
> you contemptible moron, that the states lawlessly
> seceded from the AoC and adopted the Constitution.
>
>
>

Rhode Island eventually ratified it, so what is your fucking issue?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Constitution#Ratification

Secession and the CSA were all in violation of the Constitution. It was an illegal act.

The convention was in open and flagrant violation of Article XIII and even James Madison acknowledged it; that's the phukkin issue. Now then, please show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The convention was in open and flagrant violation
> of Article XIII and even James Madison
> acknowledged it; that's the phukkin issue. Now
> then, please show me where the U.S. Constitution
> prohibits secession.


This should answer your questions...

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20041124.html

And here is the Supreme Court decision on the matter...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

I guess I'll ask again; please show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Oh, do you want a Supreme Court decision that says slaver is perfectly legal and that blacks have no rights? (I can play that bullshit game to).

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess I'll ask again; please show me where the
> U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.


Read the fucking article and the Supreme Court decision. Are you that fucking lazy?

Washington Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, do you want a Supreme Court decision that says
> slaver is perfectly legal and that blacks have no
> rights? (I can play that bullshit game to).


Yeah. And then we had Amendments to the Constitution that changed that. Where's the fucking Amendment that made secession Constitutional?

Don't play bullshit games you don't understand.

Just show me where the United States Constitution prohibits secession. Are you so phukkin stupid and lazy you can't even do that much? This issue is clearly way, way over you head. Looks like your bullshit has been thrown right back in your face.

Ya know, if I told you to show me where the Constitution prohibits Congress from passing a law making Methodism the national religion, I suspect even an ignoramus like you could direct me to the first amendment. Now then, please show me where a State is prohibited from seceding.

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just show me where the United States Constitution
> prohibits secession. Are you so phukkin stupid and
> lazy you can't even do that much? This issue is
> clearly way, way over you head. Looks like your
> bullshit has been thrown right back in your face.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White#Majority_opinion

LOL. Can't do it, can ya? All I ask is for you to show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession, and you can't do it. I'll ask again though; please show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

I'm waiting..hehehe...

Sincle the Constitution clearly does not prohibit states from seceeding maybe Clifton should seceed from Fairfax County....and take their tax money with them.

Well? Are you going to show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession or not? *snicker*

"Sincle the Constitution clearly does not prohibit states from seceeding maybe Clifton should seceed from Fairfax County....and take their tax money with them."


Actually the U.S. Constitution has nothing to say about it; the Virginia Constitution controlls here.

Since you are obviously to lazy or stupid to click on a link, here is what the Supreme Court decision said about it being unconstitutional...

The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?

Since every state voted to join the Union and abide by the Constitution, and since that Union goes into perpetuity unless Congress and every state votes to the contrary, secession is unconstitutional.

Also, you need to read the dissenting argument for Texas v. White, because the Justices never brought up any of the inane and unsupported arguments you are trying to make for secession being constitutional.

It's pretty funny to read your claim that Clifton isn't a wealthy enclave like Greenwich or the Upper East Side. According to the official school profile, Clifton was 2.4% ESOL and 2.1% free/reduced lunch in 2007-2008. You don't get much more exclusive than that.

Your claim that Clifton ES is an engine for uplifting the less fortunate is also pretty funny. It's pretty hard to uplift the less fortunate if there aren't any at your school.

My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand total of one black child during the 2007-2008 school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6 out of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black students during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go after the school board, you use the slogan "Segregation = Success!"

Here's the school profile:
http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13:5729520818416586:105:NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:416

RobertGreyberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand what you are saying KeepOnTruckin,
> you and I as always tend to understand agree on
> the same concepts in threads. But let me state
> this.
>
> You're always going to have people of lower
> incomes/different upbringings in a community and
> at a school. This isn't the Upper East Side of
> Manhattan or Greenwich, Connecticut where the
> whole population is wealthy and well brought up.
>
> These lower income and different upbringing
> students, therefore once placed in this
> environment are influenced by the well brought up
> people they are surrounded by, and excel in the
> good academic environment they are placed in.
>
> Therefore breaking the low income/different
> upbringing cycle.

Now then, please show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession. While you are at it, and just for shits and giggles, please show me the section of the constitution that Justice White relied on in his decision. I'll wait.

For chrissaskes, would you shut this guy up already and show him? PLEASE!

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now then, please show me where the U.S.
> Constitution prohibits secession. While you are at
> it, and just for shits and giggles, please show me
> the section of the constitution that Justice White
> relied on in his decision. I'll wait.


You can keep waiting. I've pointed out why secession is unconstitutional. If you can't fathom it or somehow think you know something that virtually all judges, lawyers and constitutional scholars don't, have at it.

"you can keep waiting. I've pointed out why secession is unconstitutional. If you can't fathom it or somehow think you know something that virtually all judges, lawyers and constitutional scholars don't, have at it."


For chrissakes, jst show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Ya know what? Put up or shut the phuk up. I now demand you show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "you can keep waiting. I've pointed out why
> secession is unconstitutional. If you can't fathom
> it or somehow think you know something that
> virtually all judges, lawyers and constitutional
> scholars don't, have at it."
>
>
> For chrissakes, jst show me where the U.S.
> Constitution prohibits secession.


I have. The Supreme Court has. You are a fucking idiot.

No, you cowardly asswipe, you have not. I have REPEATEDLY asked you to show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession, and you have gutlessly run from the issue. I note, by the way, when you stupidly challenged me on the meaning of perpetutiy and unanimity of Article XIII, you IMMEDIATELY provided THE TEXT of Article XIII. Now then, you miserable dishonest liar, show me where the TEXT of U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Demography rules Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's pretty funny to read your claim that Clifton
> isn't a wealthy enclave like Greenwich or the
> Upper East Side. According to the official school
> profile, Clifton was 2.4% ESOL and 2.1%
> free/reduced lunch in 2007-2008. You don't get
> much more exclusive than that.
>
> Your claim that Clifton ES is an engine for
> uplifting the less fortunate is also pretty funny.
> It's pretty hard to uplift the less fortunate if
> there aren't any at your school.
>
> My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand
> total of one black child during the 2007-2008
> school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6 out
> of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black students
> during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go
> after the school board, you use the slogan
> "Segregation = Success!"
>
> Here's the school profile:
> http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13
> :5729520818416586:105:NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:416
>
>
Glad to see I wasn't the only one who noticed that nonsense about what a "high performing school" we are. The whole staff should be fired if you weren't a high performing school given your baseline.

Not a whole lot of challenges at this school. Nevermind that some elementary schools have 1200 kids, it isn't too hard to see that 375 darlings are getting what they need.

It is not cost efficient to keep this school as is. While I support keeping this school in the neighborhood, they need to increase the size to 600 and pull in from some overcrowded neighboring schools.

Clifton community better come up with a Plan B if they want to keep this school in the neighborhood.

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, you cowardly asswipe, you have not. I have
> REPEATEDLY asked you to show me where the U.S.
> Constitution prohibits secession, and you have
> gutlessly run from the issue. I note, by the way,
> when you stupidly challenged me on the meaning of
> perpetutiy and unanimity of Article XIII, you
> IMMEDIATELY provided THE TEXT of Article XIII. Now
> then, you miserable dishonest liar, show me where
> the TEXT of U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.


Show me the text of the U.S. Constitution that allows the FCC to fine Broadcast stations for using the word "Fuck off, fucktard."

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, you cowardly asswipe, you have not. I have
> REPEATEDLY asked you to show me where the U.S.
> Constitution prohibits secession, and you have
> gutlessly run from the issue. I note, by the way,
> when you stupidly challenged me on the meaning of
> perpetutiy and unanimity of Article XIII, you
> IMMEDIATELY provided THE TEXT of Article XIII. Now
> then, you miserable dishonest liar, show me where
> the TEXT of U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Actually, I'll do you one better. Show me where in the Constitution states are allowed to secede? Please show me.

Excellent point, and, though you clearly don't fully understand the implications of your question, you, quite by chance,are in fact heading in the right direction. First things first however. I never asserted that the FCC had this right. Conversely, you have asserted that the States do not have the right to secede. So I repeat, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THE U.S. CONSTITUTION PROHIBITS SECESSION. I am waiting.

"Actually, I'll do you one better. Show me where in the Constitution states are allowed to secede? Please show me."


Gotcha my ignorant friend, and easily done. It is called the tenth amendment. Here goes:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Now then, the right of, and the power to, secede is not prohibited to the States ANYWHERE in the constitution. Game. Set. Match.

Washington Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excellent point, and, though you clearly don't
> fully understand the implications of your
> question, you, quite by chance,are in fact heading
> in the right direction. First things first
> however. I never asserted that the FCC had this
> right. Conversely, you have asserted that the
> States do not have the right to secede. So I
> repeat, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THE U.S. CONSTITUTION
> PROHIBITS SECESSION. I am waiting.


Show me where secession is allowed.

Will you two children please take your squabble outside?

"Show me where secession is allowed."
OKey dokey. From THE TEXT OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION. And thats right in your face.



"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Washinton Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Actually, I'll do you one better. Show me where
> in the Constitution states are allowed to secede?
> Please show me."
>
>
> Gotcha my ignorant friend, and easily done. It is
> called the tenth amendment. Here goes:
>
> "The powers not delegated to the United States by
> the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the
> States, are reserved to the States respectively,
> or to the people."
>
> Now then, the right of, and the power to, secede
> is not prohibited to the States ANYWHERE in the
> constitution. Game. Set. Match.


So by not being part of the Constitution, a state is following the Constitution? How the fuck is that?

BY the way, here is what the States are constitutionally prohibited from doing. Note that the power to secede is not listed:



No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

"So by not being part of the Constitution, a state is following the Constitution? How the fuck is that?"

You're too stupid for this discussion, really. The state secedes, like the colonies seceded from the British empire and the sates seceded from the AoC.

Now then; please show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand total of one black child during the 2007-2008 school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6 out of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black students during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go after the school board, you use the slogan "Segregation = Success!"

This is NOT true. I got my kid's yearbooks out and came across more black children than those statistics indicate. Perhaps on the census form 'mixed' was marked...I don't know. I wonder what race Barak Obama would check. I think most people consider him black even though he would be 'mixed' race.

Something that I would like to know is what will happen after sixth grade. Would the Clifton children still stay in the Robinson pyramid and the rest of the school go down the street to Centreville High School?

"My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand total of one black child during the 2007-2008 school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6 out of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black students during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go after the school board, you use the slogan "Segregation = Success!"

This is NOT true. I got my kid's yearbooks out and came across more black children than those statistics indicate. Perhaps on the census form 'mixed' was marked...I don't know. I wonder what race Barak Obama would check. I think most people consider him black even though he would be 'mixed' race.

Something that I would like to know is what will happen after sixth grade. Would the Clifton children still stay in the Robinson pyramid and the rest of the school go down the street to Centreville High School?

no kidding Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Demography rules Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's pretty funny to read your claim that
> Clifton
> > isn't a wealthy enclave like Greenwich or the
> > Upper East Side. According to the official
> school
> > profile, Clifton was 2.4% ESOL and 2.1%
> > free/reduced lunch in 2007-2008. You don't get
> > much more exclusive than that.
> >
> > Your claim that Clifton ES is an engine for
> > uplifting the less fortunate is also pretty
> funny.
> > It's pretty hard to uplift the less fortunate
> if
> > there aren't any at your school.
> >
> > My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand
> > total of one black child during the 2007-2008
> > school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6
> out
> > of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black
> students
> > during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go
> > after the school board, you use the slogan
> > "Segregation = Success!"
> >
> > Here's the school profile:
> >
> http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13
>
> >
> :5729520818416586:105:NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:416
>
> >
> >
> Glad to see I wasn't the only one who noticed that
> nonsense about what a "high performing school" we
> are. The whole staff should be fired if you
> weren't a high performing school given your
> baseline.
>
> Not a whole lot of challenges at this school.
> Nevermind that some elementary schools have 1200
> kids, it isn't too hard to see that 375 darlings
> are getting what they need.
>
> It is not cost efficient to keep this school as
> is. While I support keeping this school in the
> neighborhood, they need to increase the size to
> 600 and pull in from some overcrowded neighboring
> schools.
>
> Clifton community better come up with a Plan B if
> they want to keep this school in the neighborhood.


No kidding's post makes sense, and it's on topic.

no kidding Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Demography rules Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's pretty funny to read your claim that
> Clifton
> > isn't a wealthy enclave like Greenwich or the
> > Upper East Side. According to the official
> school
> > profile, Clifton was 2.4% ESOL and 2.1%
> > free/reduced lunch in 2007-2008. You don't get
> > much more exclusive than that.
> >
> > Your claim that Clifton ES is an engine for
> > uplifting the less fortunate is also pretty
> funny.
> > It's pretty hard to uplift the less fortunate
> if
> > there aren't any at your school.
> >
> > My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand
> > total of one black child during the 2007-2008
> > school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6
> out
> > of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black
> students
> > during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go
> > after the school board, you use the slogan
> > "Segregation = Success!"
> >
> > Here's the school profile:
> >
> http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13
>
> >
> :5729520818416586:105:NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:416
>
> >
> >
> Glad to see I wasn't the only one who noticed that
> nonsense about what a "high performing school" we
> are. The whole staff should be fired if you
> weren't a high performing school given your
> baseline.
>
> Not a whole lot of challenges at this school.
> Nevermind that some elementary schools have 1200
> kids, it isn't too hard to see that 375 darlings
> are getting what they need.
>
> It is not cost efficient to keep this school as
> is. While I support keeping this school in the
> neighborhood, they need to increase the size to
> 600 and pull in from some overcrowded neighboring
> schools.
>
> Clifton community better come up with a Plan B if
> they want to keep this school in the neighborhood.


"Glad to see I wasn't the only one who noticed that
nonsense about what a "high performing school" we
are. The whole staff should be fired if you
weren't a high performing school given your
baseline."

Given our baseline? What, are you saying that blacks kids and hispanic kids aren't as intelligent as white kids?!? Give me a break! The kids at Clifton are not excelling because they are white. That is the most racist comment yet on here.

Also, this is not just about Clifton Elementary. This could potentially involve 22 other schools in this area. Residents in Centreville and surrounding areas will be involved in this also when the county decides to do yet another boundary study, and ship those kids to other schools. Building one new school, near Liberty Middle School is not going to solve the overcrowding issues. The site near Liberty isn't even near the schools that are most crowded.

"Given our baseline? What, are you saying that blacks kids and hispanic kids aren't as intelligent as white kids?!? Give me a break! The kids at Clifton are not excelling because they are white. That is the most racist comment yet on here."

Yes, given your baseline. And yes, you school excells specifically because it is populated by white children. While we're at it, please do spare everyone your phony limousine-liberalism and your hysterical, self-righteous wails of "racism". Just be honest enough to admit that you live in a peaceful and prosperous white community and that would be horrified to see your kids bused off to Falls Church type school. In other words, knock off the bullshit.

5th: The students at Clifton Elementary are
> excelling, because it is a small school where each
> child gets individual attention.

Fairfax does not want this few amount of kids going to an elementary school. This is not a private school, they could care less about the student-teacher ratio, it's about the county as a whole and closing down the school could obviously help them or they wouldn't be considering it.

Regarding the fact that it's a Governor school, here's the deal, a group of students from wealthy backgrounds such as in Clifton, are generally smarter than a group of poor students. While there are always exceptions, they should be getting higher tests scores as they are. It's not the school's small population and sending them to other elementary schools could bump up other average test grades a point or two.

You all need to remember that diversity is a good thing. All the kids going to the all white Clifton ES are doomed to fail. Long live Hayfield.

Kids are kids. They will learn as well as they are taught. There is no way you can say that any child will do well in a school that has 900 to 1200 k-6 graders in it!! All you do by closing Clifton is make overcrowding worse! Right now FCPS has said they are projected to be 1100 kids over capacity by 2011.

Too Much Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kids are kids. They will learn as well as they are
> taught. There is no way you can say that any child
> will do well in a school that has 900 to 1200 k-6
> graders in it!! All you do by closing Clifton is
> make overcrowding worse! Right now FCPS has said
> they are projected to be 1100 kids over capacity
> by 2011.


Yes, and a good solution to this problem is to renovate and expand Clifton ES. Too bad there's no room on the site to to that, and besides, parents would bitch that "other people" would be attending "their" school.

So, it makes good fiscal sense to relocate the school to where it can be expanded- the Liberty MS site.

Now if parents want to write the checks to expand Clifton ES on the site, by building in the courtyard or a second floor, that would work as well.

But since you just bitched at FCPS about fiscal sense regarding Gatehouse II, you don't really have a leg to stand on regarding this issue. Besides, they can use the vacated school as an administrative center then.

RobertGreyberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think race truly has a part of it, I think
> the social atmosphere does though. Yes, Clifton is
> an area whose residents consist mainly of white
> upper middle class-wealthy families who support
> good family values, morals, and the good
> upbringing of their children.
>

This is why you will not gain any traction with all the "lesser" people of Fairfax County who don't meet your qualifications of having good family values, morals and bringing their children up right. Because you believe this is exclusive to Clifton. Elitist trash talking is the worst form of trash talking.

Do you walk up to street people and lecture them about how you are superior to them because you have three mortgages and a really expensive car leased directly from Mercedes? Or do you lecture the homeless about how your children will never be homeless because you understand the importance of education and high moral standards?

> This therefore vastly excludes negative influences
> from leaking into the Clifton area, and therefore
> causing no harm to its residents, and its schools
> (until they are shipped off to the overcrowded and
> lower income area schools). Such negative
> influences that Clifton lacks for example are
> drugs and gangs.
>

I knew a kid from Clifton, with a really wealthy father, who broke into my neighbor's house to steal his baseball card collection so he could buy crack. I also knew another Clifton resident who used to hang out in Georgetown on his Crotch Rocket, before he killed himself going 140 down West Ox at 3 am, drunk out of his mind. I knew another kid who used to throw raging parties at his parent's 'investment property', but he got expelled from my school for raping a girl and getting her pregnant.

Maybe things have changed since the late 80's and you guys have figured out how to stop time at the clifton town line. I don't know.

> (until they are shipped off to the overcrowded and
> lower income area schools). Such negative

Again, with the elitist bullshit. To be so smug that you call everything else in Fairfax County, one of the most wealthiest counties in the country, "lower income" just proves that you don't have a clue, you are a transplant to this area, you heard Clifton was where rich people live (actually, it's Middleburg, Mclean, Great Falls and Potomac, just so you know), and you fear the implications of your little Hunter or Emma going to one of those "lower income" county schools.

Then send them to a fucking private school. You have the means, unless you are only trying to pretend to be wealthy and are actually mortgaged up the ass. Stop trying to get private school privileges in a public school system. Nobody will sympathize with parents who want to keep an exclusive school at taxpayer's expense. Sorry. Stop being clueless.

> Clifton doesn't have gangs, nor does it have a bad
> drug problem. While we are talking about an
> elementary school here, if there was a Clifton
> high school to be invented it would probably be
> another Langley High School, where such negative
> influences aren't as common and instead academic
> success and a strong sense of community are
> common.
>

You don't want to know the truth about Langley. Believe me, the school administrators do everything in their power to maintain the facade of a good school, but even children of wealthy parents get influenced by VH1, MTV and all the trash culture. There are "gangs" (not real, just wangsta gangs) and there are all kinds of drugs at Langley. There are students who stopped attending but as far as the records and test scores are concerned, they never missed a day. They artificially keep their graduation rates and GPA averages by playing games, making deals with students, etc.

> Don't blame Clifton residents and their kids for
> being decent people. Maybe there can be a lesson
> learned from Clifton Elementary and the Clifton
> Community model. A small school, with the right
> types of good and moral abiding wholesome
> families, in a strong and connected community can
> produce excellent results for its residents.

The lesson learned is that only in Clifton can you be a decent person. Everyone else in this county is white trash. At least, that is what you mean, right?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% that small community schools are the best for getting the most out of students. HOWEVER, what you fail to see is that you are demanding that YOU get it, and deride the rest of the county in the process, and generally don't seem to give a shit that everyone else, those with what you assume are smaller paychecks than you doesn't receive the same privilege, because your paycheck says you deserve it and they don't. And if you live in Clifton and aren't one of only a dozen really rich people, your paycheck isn't much higher than a lot of other people in this county, it's just that where you come from it seems like a whole lot of money. You probably don't realize that making $350,000 a year is not wealthy, because where you come from that's like 20 year's salary for most folks. In Fairfax County, that is probably 5 or 10% of the population, if not more. (All I could find data-wise is that 22% of fairfax county residents earn more than $150,000).

Langley High School is desperately trying to keep a lid on all the problems they have there--especially drugs. What can you do when the demanding, arrogant mommies and daddies don't want to hear about their perfect, privileged children's REAL issues?

And thank you, Thurston Moore, for calling the Clifton person (Robert Greyburg) out for being a self-righteous, elitist, and self-centered resident. Thinking he is more enlightened than other people by saying: "maybe there's a lesson to be learned--a small school with the RIGHT types of good and moral families, can produce excellent results" ??

Gee, REALLY?! A small community school where students get quality attention can make a difference? We had NO idea! So grateful you told us!!! (sarcasm)

I find these redistrictings positively fascinating. They do seem to bring out the best and worst in people, don't they?

I think the Clifton community would be best served by learing by the examples of the other more recent re3districtings-particularly the madion Island/South Lakes WAR. The MI parents initially started out by complaining about how awful South Lakes/Langston Hughes schools were (they referred to the MS as Ganster Hughes). This caused quite a bit of tension between the camps and the accusations started to fly about racism.

The MI parents then shifted strategy to attack the IB program that was offered at SL vs what they view as the "superior" AP program. They lost the fight and many parents opted to pupil place at other schools using the AP excuse.

Clifton, like all neighborhoods deserves a school in their neighborhood. But we have to be realistic here. Money is extremely tight right now and if a renovation is to be done at this school the money needs to be spent prudently. the existing site is not a good choice because of the water issues and joint bus/car road issues. That is a public health/safety issue that cannot be sismissed. Surely there is another lot of land within Clifton that could serve as a place for the school-maybe owned by the parks?? This is what South County did to get their school-they did a land swap.

The Clifton community better get creative and fast or they will be relocated to Centreville.

I can see this thing rivaling the redistricting thread by the time all is said an done.

Look, I understand. If I had paid $1.2 million for a house that is now worth $700K in order to send my kid to an all white school but instead little Johnny is going to have to go to a school that has 20% brown people in it, I would be angry, too.

But I didn't so I'm not.

interesting question Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Formerhick and Greyberg....I agree that Loft has a
> fatalistic approach. But at some level he is
> speaking to some uncomfortable truths. Hard to
> argue with his sanctimonious posturing comment -
> the statistics to a large extent back up his
> points.
>
> What is the right response when race is
> overwhelmingly a proxy for poor academic
> achievement and conduct, not just in Fairfax but
> throughout the nation? It is not like the County
> isn't spending a lot of money to improve
> achievement and conduct, either.
>
> Parents ought to be tolerant but at what point do
> their concerns become rational from a statistical
> perspective? This isn't just an abstract question
> because when schools reach a tipping point they
> become unattractive and caring parents do opt out
> - either through the political process, private
> school, or whatever other means.
>
> Interested to hear your perspectives.

The correct response is to complain about the behavior, not associating the race with the behavior, because that just opens an entire Pandora's box -- it causes some folks to just put the speak on 'ignore.'

For example, in the Kings Dominion thread, someone could have said, 'You know, I don't like going there because there's been too many violent incidents.' There was no freaking need to talk about race unless you just wanted to advertise your discomfort with/dislike of black people.

Complain about 'trash,' and not 'gangsters' and 'illegals,' and you'll get no complaint from me. Yet at the same time, we've already shown that fear/suspicion of 'the other' doesn't work, nor should it.

Other things:
(1) America spent 250+ years enslaving black people, 100 or so years keeping them in second-class citizen status, and has only tried the 'equal under the law' thing for the past 40 or so years. I'm not sure why many whites expect the transition to be seamless/painfree.
(2) Is separate but equal even achievable? What if the Supreme Court in Brown v. Board had ordered states to make things 'equal' by say 1965, or if the NAACP had waged campaigns to shame Southern states into making 'Negro' schools truly equal?
(3) I wonder how crime/drugs/other bad stuff shakes out for all races if you normalize for poverty (e.g. are low-income whites less prone to crime and other ills than blacks on the same income scale?) Is there an income level above which these racial differences largely disappear?
(4) I've posited here before that minor amounts of trashiness from one's own race is largely tolerated. For example, Gretchen Wilson is tolerated by more whites than say Snoop Dogg, even though both of them sing about getting as much intoxicants into your system as possible. Ditto for teenagers getting into minor trouble -- would the reactions to the Westfields heroin ring story been different if it had been Latino kids at JEB Stuart dealing drugs? You betcha.
(5) It does seem Asian/Black/Hispanic culture has some 'support the extended family even they are deadbeats' elements that are largely absent from Anglo culture.'
(6) Even if it turns out the average Black person is X points lower in IQ than the average White person, so freaking what? Why should a White cretin get a free pass (relatively speaking), and a Black genius/normal person get extra suspicion?

"For example, in the Kings Dominion thread, someone could have said, 'You know, I don't like going there because there's been too many violent incidents.' There was no freaking need to talk about race unless you just wanted to advertise your discomfort with/dislike of black people.

Complain about 'trash,' and not 'gangsters' and 'illegals,' and you'll get no complaint from me. Yet at the same time, we've already shown that fear/suspicion of 'the other' doesn't work, nor should it.

Other things:
(1) America spent 250+ years enslaving black people, 100 or so years keeping them in second-class citizen status, and has only tried the 'equal under the law' thing for the past 40 or so years. I'm not sure why many whites expect the transition to be seamless/painfree.
(2) Is separate but equal even achievable? What if the Supreme Court in Brown v. Board had ordered states to make things 'equal' by say 1965, or if the NAACP had waged campaigns to shame Southern states into making 'Negro' schools truly equal?
(3) I wonder how crime/drugs/other bad stuff shakes out for all races if you normalize for poverty (e.g. are low-income whites less prone to crime and other ills than blacks on the same income scale?) Is there an income level above which these racial differences largely disappear?
(4) I've posited here before that minor amounts of trashiness from one's own race is largely tolerated. For example, Gretchen Wilson is tolerated by more whites than say Snoop Dogg, even though both of them sing about getting as much intoxicants into your system as possible. Ditto for teenagers getting into minor trouble -- would the reactions to the Westfields heroin ring story been different if it had been Latino kids at JEB Stuart dealing drugs? You betcha.
(5) It does seem Asian/Black/Hispanic culture has some 'support the extended family even they are deadbeats' elements that are largely absent from Anglo culture.'
(6) Even if it turns out the average Black person is X points lower in IQ than the average White person, so freaking what? Why should a White cretin get a free pass (relatively speaking), and a Black genius/normal person get extra suspicion?"



What rot;pure pc limousine-liberal rot. Negro agricultural laborers in the 19th century (antebellum) South had a better quality of life than negros anywhere in the world, African Tribal Kings possibly excepted.

"With equal pleasure I have as often taken notice that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people -- a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs," -John Jay, Federalist #2


God bless John Jay. Blacks are disproportionately responsible for crime, violent crime in particular. The most criminal and violent areas of the country and where the black population is highest. And of course, the least violent and criminal areas of the country (think Montana, Idaho, Wyoming) are where the black population is lowest.

Why does this thread about closing Clifton Elementary keep coming back to the right to own slaves? Is there a big desire by Clifton residents to own slaves that I haven't heard about?

WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why does this thread about closing Clifton
> Elementary keep coming back to the right to own
> slaves? Is there a big desire by Clifton residents
> to own slaves that I haven't heard about?

Well, when the admin's thread on banning policies and personal attacks turns into talk of fisting high schoolers, it is no shock that this thread turns into owning slaves.

Why does this thread about closing Clifton Elementary keep coming back to the wonderful and marvelous advantages that blacks bring to the community? Is there a big desire by Clifton residents to change their school from 79% white to 79% black that I haven't heard about? Will that make the Clifton children all smarter?

Washington Tone-Logian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why does this thread about closing Clifton
> Elementary keep coming back to the wonderful and
> marvelous advantages that blacks bring to the
> community? Is there a big desire by Clifton
> residents to change their school from 79% white to
> 79% black that I haven't heard about? Will that
> make the Clifton children all smarter?


And that's the problem. They would go from a school with <1% black to a school with 11% black. For this region, that's still a pretty damn small percentage to get this worked up over.

Another school thread. I expect this to break 1k in post volume.

I might just go over to Clifton Elementary and tear it down by hand if it will force an end to this discussion.

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

76 formerhicks Wrote:
> What rot;pure pc limousine-liberal rot. Negro
> agricultural laborers in the 19th century
> (antebellum) South had a better quality of life
> than negros anywhere in the world, African Tribal
> Kings possibly excepted.

I'm afraid I just can't take your word for this. Some proof may be needed.

How free were these agricultural laborers to put in their two weeks' notice?

I really do understand the concern, though. You would rather have your kids doing cocaine with other white kids instead of crack with the "brothers" and the "Joses." I get it.

As a responsible parent, I'd rather the kids do cocaine with me.

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

What I find rather odd is the seasonal timing of this whole matter. Clifton ES was built in the 1950s and has been managing just fine and now all of a sudden as soon as everyone leaves for summer vacation, we have toi decide whether to close this school or not.

It reminds me of the politicians who release bad news on Friday evening in order to minimize coverage.

It is also somewhat comical that the School Board talks about "involving the affected communities" in the process, yet Clifton, only found about these plans due to an internal leak by an FCPS mole. Only then, did FCPS send the damage control team out for the community meeting.

And lastly, if all these communities are going to play a significant role in what happens to this school, how come FCPS is already recommending that the school be closed and a new school be built at Liberty MS?

I just think it is odd to make a recommendation BEFORE the community input.

I think I really do understand the concern, though. You would rather have your kids pimpn', hoin', gangbangin' and doing crack with the bruthas, to show everyone just how progressive and enlightened you are, instead of earning admission into U Va or Tech with the white kids. I get it.

I'm afraid I just can't take your word for this notion that the Southern blacks had an inferior quality of life than blacks in Africa or in the Northern US. Some proof may be needed.

Can you tell me what the life expectancy of an African slave in Gambia was in, say 1855? Can you tell me the life expectancy of a "free" northern black in 1855?

I completed my k-6 at Clifton ES around 10 years ago and can personally attest to the personal attention and quaint feeling the school has, etc. While it may be possible that kids score well in SOLs or whatever other bullshit exams they take these days - I can tell you that a disproportionate amount of kids that graduated from Clifton elementary from 8-12 years ago ended up getting busted on drug dist.(not weed, blow, ecs. and such), dwi/dui charges before graduated from college and even high school in many cases. I've never been able to figure this out? I guess kids with less desire to succeed (since they already have so many luxuries people dream of) just try to take the easy way out to make big bucks.

Even with that being said, I don't think the school should be closed - but I'll admit that I'm horribly biased.

And to WashingtoneLocian - not everyone wants it closed because of the housing market depressing. Some of us had homes before the housing market exploded in the late-ninety's. So that's really more of a $700,000 back then to $1.3~1.4 M. now conservatively, even in a depressed market, type of deal. Sorry to bust your bubble.

- HD

yet Clifton, only found about these plans due to an internal leak by an FCPS mole. Only then, did FCPS send the damage control team out for the community meeting.

I was under the impression that Liz Bradsher mentioned it to Pat Herrity who then went to the Mayor with the information...so not a mole per se.

H DeeZy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> And to WashingtoneLocian - not everyone wants it
> closed because of the housing market depressing.
> Some of us had homes before the housing market
> exploded in the late-ninety's. So that's really
> more of a $700,000 back then to $1.3~1.4 M. now
> conservatively, even in a depressed market, type
> of deal. Sorry to bust your bubble.
>
> - HD


Here's a house in Balmoral Greens that assessed at more than $1 million in 2008...

http://icare.fairfaxcounty.gov/Forms/Datalets.aspx?mode=valuesall&taxyear=2010&ownseq=1&roll=REAL&jur=&sIndex=1&idx=1&LMparent=138

...Which is now on the market in the 700s...

Sorry to burst YOUR bubble...

http://www.justnewlistings.com/idx/mris/FX6982762/details.html

WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> H DeeZy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > And to WashingtoneLocian - not everyone wants
> it
> > closed because of the housing market
> depressing.
> > Some of us had homes before the housing market
> > exploded in the late-ninety's. So that's really
> > more of a $700,000 back then to $1.3~1.4 M. now
> > conservatively, even in a depressed market,
> type
> > of deal. Sorry to bust your bubble.
> >
> > - HD
>
>
> Here's a house in Balmoral Greens that assessed at
> more than $1 million in 2008...
>
> http://icare.fairfaxcounty.gov/Forms/Datalets.aspx
> ?mode=valuesall&taxyear=2010&ownseq=1&roll=REAL&ju
> r=&sIndex=1&idx=1&LMparent=138
>
> ...Which is now on the market in the 700s...
>
> Sorry to burst YOUR bubble...
>
> http://www.justnewlistings.com/idx/mris/FX6982762/
> details.html

I said people who bought property before the late-ninety's, doucheasauras. Please actually read the post you are replying to before you waste precious time copying and pasting irrelevant links.

Regards.

HD

H DeeZy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I said people who bought property before the
> late-ninety's, doucheasauras. Please actually read
> the post you are replying to before you waste
> precious time copying and pasting irrelevant
> links.
>
> Regards.
>
> HD


Hey, twat! Point out where I said anything in my original statement about the fucking 1990s! The people doing the most bitching are the ones who paid premium prices during the housing bubble to get away from the brown and black people of the world. Guess what? You're fucked!

sneaky School Board Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I just think it is odd to make a recommendation
> BEFORE the community input.


This is exactly how the School Board does business. This is not new. This is how they do everything. No matter what the community desires, after all their meetings, afther all their reiterations, the end result will be exactly what is proposed right now.

The people doing the most bitching are the ones who paid premium prices during the housing bubble to get away from the brown and black people of the world. Guess what? You are 79% white! You did it! God bless.

76 formerhicks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you tell me what the life expectancy of an
> African slave in Gambia was in, say 1855? Can you
> tell me the life expectancy of a "free" northern
> black in 1855?

No, and can you?

I'm just a little curious why you seem to think enslavement is a desirable condition.

WTF? why does this thread always come back to race and slavery? can we get back on topic please

No, and can you?

I'm just a little curious why you seem to think enslavement is a desirable condition."

And I, in turn, am just a little curious as to why you seem to think that "slavery" in the Southern U.S. was worse than slavery in Africa, Asia, and South America. Or why, for that matter, you seem think that "free" blacks in the north had a better quality of life than Southern agricultural laborers.

Though I live in the Clifton school zone, I don't live in the Town of Clifton or even in the Fairfax Station or Clifton zip codes. For those of you continuing your spasms about the "elitests" and "rich folk" take note that not everyone in that area is rich and I'm relatively certain most people I know living in that area could care less if more kids from varying ethnic and social backgrounds went to the school.

For those posting how afraid all of us in the Clifton school zone are of those of color or other nationality, don't label an entire community just because of a handful that may have that viewpoint. Just as you likely wouldn't want to be labeled based on the questionable actions of a few people from where you live or of your ethnic background. Right? Or does that only apply when it suits you?

NotaCliftonite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Though I live in the Clifton school zone, I don't
> live in the Town of Clifton or even in the Fairfax
> Station or Clifton zip codes. For those of you
> continuing your spasms about the "elitests" and
> "rich folk" take note that not everyone in that
> area is rich and I'm relatively certain most
> people I know living in that area could care less
> if more kids from varying ethnic and social
> backgrounds went to the school.
>
> For those posting how afraid all of us in the
> Clifton school zone are of those of color or other
> nationality, don't label an entire community just
> because of a handful that may have that viewpoint.
> Just as you likely wouldn't want to be labeled
> based on the questionable actions of a few people
> from where you live or of your ethnic background.
> Right? Or does that only apply when it suits you?

I'm not labeling everyone in Clifton. Just the ones on here freaking out that there kids would be moving from Clifton Elementary to Union Mill. Sorry, but a lot of families would LOVE to send their kids to Union Mill. The only explanation of why these people are upset is the fact that Union Mill has a student population that is more representational of the community at large.

What may be hard for outsiders to see is how much the town and the school are a part of each other. The school is perched on the edge of the town, removing it diminishes the entire town as well as diminishes the educational opportunities of all the students that go there. The education and environment that the children receive at Clifton Elementary school is the best parents think they can get for their children. It is special because of its small town setting and conversely because of its locality within a county of a million residents. It has the best of both worlds and it is rare.

I see. Everyone else in the county should support an expensive school renovation for Clifton's very small student population. Many other schools have to make do (including West Springfield H.S. and TJ), but Clifton should get special treatment. Otherwise the town is "diminished."

Some people/areas feel they are more important than others around here, even though the county has run out of money for basic services. The entitlement attitude.

I'm assuming the Town of Clifton charges RE taxes ... why not let it create its own school system a la West Point/Colonial Beach, except its only school is Clifton Elementary (K-6) -- Lexington does something like this, running schools for grades K-8 and sending 9-12 students to Rockbridge County.

The Town of Clifton doesn't tax real estate. To the best of my knowledge, the only tax revenue the town has is from BPOL (businesses), and it isn't that much. As far housing values, Clifton has actually held up pretty well. Undoubtably, there are some people who are upside down in their houses, but I think the vast majority have a fair amount of equity. Just take a look at the map of 20124 on realtytrac.com and you'll see foreclosures are a pretty rare thing.


formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm assuming the Town of Clifton charges RE taxes
> ... why not let it create its own school system a
> la West Point/Colonial Beach, except its only
> school is Clifton Elementary (K-6) -- Lexington
> does something like this, running schools for
> grades K-8 and sending 9-12 students to Rockbridge
> County.

oh right Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see. Everyone else in the county should support
> an expensive school renovation for Clifton's very
> small student population. Many other schools
> have to make do (including West Springfield H.S.
> and TJ), but Clifton should get special treatment.
> Otherwise the town is "diminished."
>
> Some people/areas feel they are more important
> than others around here, even though the county
> has run out of money for basic services. The
> entitlement attitude.


the people in Clifton pay taxes just like the rest of the county residents. Why shouldn't the school be renovated? All tax payers are paying for free breakfast/lunch programs, yet Clifton is using 2% of that, compared to the county avg. of 33%. If the county finances are in such dire straits, was it REALLY necessary to put an electronic sensor over each and every parking space at Gatehouse to tell you if a car is parked there?
Renovating Clifton Elem. isn't about an entitlement attitude. It's not about asking for "special treatment". As I understand it, Clifton parents just don't want the school to close. I don't know of any parent who would want their kids school to close if the child is doing well there. The Clifton parents that I've spoken to don't even care if Clifton Elem. isn't renovated for a while. The school is functioning just fine, as is. As far as the cost of the bottled water, I think most of the parents would be just fine sending in their own bottled water every day if it meant keeping the school open.
Are Clifton residents more "privileged", maybe, but they manage to make enough $ to live there. Good for them. Why does that mean they don't have the right to a neighborhood school?

CliftonResident Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> actually held up pretty well. Undoubtably, there
> are some people who are upside down in their
> houses, but I think the vast majority have a fair


I like that you used upside down, instead of the neospeak "underwater" crap that you hear on all the cable news channels.

Why do we have to keep inventing new ways to describe the same old thing? Oh yeah, it's part of political speech -- it changes the way people think about an issue.

Being underwater implies that you are drowning and need help. Being upside down just means you owe more than the value of your home, while you still have your home as long as you keep making payments.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2009 11:32PM by Thurston Moore.

To "Why Not?"--No one disputes the value of a small, neighborhood school. But to say Clifton parents "have the *right* to a neighborhood school" over other students' rights to basic services is not responsible. It is selfish.

There's nothing wrong with Clifton parents making enough money to buy out there. But they cannot make their small school a priority when many other bigger issues affecting more people are being neglected.

It is FCPS/Fairfax County's fault for not properly planning and saving when there was more money.

OK... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To "Why Not?"--No one disputes the value of a
> small, neighborhood school. But to say Clifton
> parents "have the *right* to a neighborhood
> school" over other students' rights to basic
> services is not responsible. It is selfish.
>
> There's nothing wrong with Clifton parents making
> enough money to buy out there. But they cannot
> make their small school a priority when many other
> bigger issues affecting more people are being
> neglected.
>
> It is FCPS/Fairfax County's fault for not properly
> planning and saving when there was more money.

Nobody is disputing that there are other schools that need work. I know a lot of parents that have kids in Clifton, and they don't want or expect Clifton ES to be a priority over other schools. They just don't want the school to close. None are asking the county to put Clifton before other schools which need renovation, they are simply asking the county to keep their school open.

I don't live in Clifton. I wish I did. But just because I don't make enough to live there, I don't begrudge them their success, and yes, I do think they have the "right" to keep their ONLY neighborhood school. Every parent, when looking for a house to buy, looks at the schools their children will attend. A huge part of the decision is based on what schools their kids will go to. The parents in Clifton aren't any different. Don't blame them for wanting to preserve what they have worked hard for to buy into an area that still treasure's a small town atmosphere. Clifton is "one of a kind" in Fairfax County. For historical sake alone, the school should remain.

why not? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK... Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To "Why Not?"--No one disputes the value of a
> > small, neighborhood school. But to say Clifton
> > parents "have the *right* to a neighborhood
> > school" over other students' rights to basic
> > services is not responsible. It is selfish.
> >
> > There's nothing wrong with Clifton parents
> making
> > enough money to buy out there. But they
> cannot
> > make their small school a priority when many
> other
> > bigger issues affecting more people are being
> > neglected.
> >
> > It is FCPS/Fairfax County's fault for not
> properly
> > planning and saving when there was more money.
>
> Nobody is disputing that there are other schools
> that need work. I know a lot of parents that have
> kids in Clifton, and they don't want or expect
> Clifton ES to be a priority over other schools.
> They just don't want the school to close. None
> are asking the county to put Clifton before other
> schools which need renovation, they are simply
> asking the county to keep their school open.
>


The County claims that this is fiscally impossible. besides, they won't close it, just relocate it. Then the school can become an admin center

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> why not? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > OK... Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > To "Why Not?"--No one disputes the value of a
> > > small, neighborhood school. But to say
> Clifton
> > > parents "have the *right* to a neighborhood
> > > school" over other students' rights to basic
> > > services is not responsible. It is selfish.
>
> > >
> > > There's nothing wrong with Clifton parents
> > making
> > > enough money to buy out there. But they
> > cannot
> > > make their small school a priority when many
> > other
> > > bigger issues affecting more people are being
> > > neglected.
> > >
> > > It is FCPS/Fairfax County's fault for not
> > properly
> > > planning and saving when there was more
> money.
> >
> > Nobody is disputing that there are other
> schools
> > that need work. I know a lot of parents that
> have
> > kids in Clifton, and they don't want or expect
> > Clifton ES to be a priority over other schools.
>
> > They just don't want the school to close. None
> > are asking the county to put Clifton before
> other
> > schools which need renovation, they are simply
> > asking the county to keep their school open.
> >
>
>
> The County claims that this is fiscally
> impossible. besides, they won't close it, just
> relocate it. Then the school can become an admin
> center


one less school for u to clean, huh, kot?

CliftonResident Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Town of Clifton doesn't tax real estate. To
> the best of my knowledge, the only tax revenue the
> town has is from BPOL (businesses), and it isn't
> that much. As far housing values, Clifton has
> actually held up pretty well. Undoubtably, there
> are some people who are upside down in their
> houses, but I think the vast majority have a fair
> amount of equity. Just take a look at the map of
> 20124 on realtytrac.com and you'll see
> foreclosures are a pretty rare thing.

Basically the way this would work is the Clifton Public Schools would operate one school, Clifton Elementary. It could contract with FCPS for various services that can't be provided by a tiny school system (e.g. sign language interpreters, etc.) The Lexington City Public Schools are a model to possibly follow, seeing as they educate only K-8 these days (I think there was a Lexington HS once but no longer.)

On the other hand, with the Dillon Rule and the such, setting this up would be nearly impossible. Is the only option connecting CES to the FCWA lines -- wouldn't it be cheaper to get a giant water tank and use that to power the sprinkler?

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> On the other hand, with the Dillon Rule and the
> such, setting this up would be nearly impossible.
> Is the only option connecting CES to the FCWA
> lines -- wouldn't it be cheaper to get a giant
> water tank and use that to power the sprinkler?


Where to put the water tank? It would be either in the courtyard or somwhere in the athletic fields.

Courtyard probably woudlnt be that expensive, but the kids would not like to look out in the courtyard and see a water tank.

Why not build a water tower by the athletic fields?

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> formerhick76 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > On the other hand, with the Dillon Rule and the
> > such, setting this up would be nearly
> impossible.
> > Is the only option connecting CES to the FCWA
> > lines -- wouldn't it be cheaper to get a giant
> > water tank and use that to power the sprinkler?
>
>
> Where to put the water tank? It would be either in
> the courtyard or somwhere in the athletic fields.
>
> Courtyard probably woudlnt be that expensive, but
> the kids would not like to look out in the
> courtyard and see a water tank.
>
> Why not build a water tower by the athletic
> fields?

True. In my first post, I put a cost estimate given for a water tower, which was something like $750,000 or so. I'm not sure if the cost included getting the water, or how much it'd cost to get water into the tower. But I can't see it costing over $2 million.

The school just received the Governor's award for being one of the top 20 schools. It is obviously working and working well. There is not an immediate need for renovation. Leave the working school alone. Apply needed resources to other schools with a need more desperate than Clifton.

You people are a bunch of fools. You DESERVE to pay more taxes. The renovation of Clifton issue is just a smoke screen to redirect focus away from what is going on and its called spending more of your taxes. In an article in the Post called Stacks of Education Goals but Not of Cash, Superintendent Jack Dale projected a $176 million shortfall for next fiscal year and said they are considering eliminating summer school or full-day kindergarten and increasing class sizes. Yet they are trying to build a $50 million Middle School in South County and a $26.5 million Elementary school near Liberty middle. The Clifton thing is just to get everybody to swallow the idea of spending $26.5 million on a new school. Looks like they have got you hook, line and sinker.

I agree. All I see on this thread is that the Board/Government is winning again in spending our tax dollars. Clifton is a perfect target for all kinds of things so people will spin their wheels on something else instead of seeing how they are trying to increase taxes. The County is already working with Clifton to get on public water and it has already been renovated once whereas some of the other schools in the County haven’t been renovated at all. Why not spend attention on the other schools that have never been renovated and need the help more? Because this way they don’t have to answer questions like:

Why do we have 17 assistant superintendents who each earn a six-figure salary?
Why is our assistant principal-to-student ratio so much higher than surrounding counties?
Why did we grow from four areas to eight clusters, doubling our administration?
Where are you going to get the money to hire the teachers to staff the two new schools when you are threatening to lay the current ones off and they are on pay freezes?

They don't have any answers. That is why they have to make new questions and in this case it is whether or not to renovate Clifton.

FCPS does whatever they damn well please. They'll freeze teacher's salaries for a couple of years but Dr. Dale accepts a big raise!!! Don't they realize our economy is years from recovering? Tax payers should demand they cease any more renovations or building of new schools until things recover and teachers get the raises they deserve. It pisses me off.

FCPS sure is good at screwing their low level employees though.

Newly hired bus drivers receive no benefits, no health insurance, no nuthin.

They cut my pay almost 20 percent for this school year.

Even the little stuff is gone.

At the annual driver meeting they used to buy us a donut and a cup of coffee. No more. How much do a few hundred fucking donuts cost?

If you didn't have an accident all year they used to give out Safe Driving jackets. No more.

So rejoice taxpayers. FCPS is indeed saving some money!

That's absurd that they have cut bus drivers pay! Everyone has got to start sounding off to the media to tell them no more spending on renovations or on new buildings or they are just going to keep robbing hardworking taxpayers of their pay. Clifton isn't going to fall down and it is a lot better off than some of the other schools in the County! I heard the parents in Clifton don't even want the renovations so let them buy their little darlings bottled water until the County finishes running public water to the school.

Of course, most of the Board Members terms are ending just about the time the new schools would be built and if they can't build those schools than they won't get the publicity they want for their next runs for office. Coincidental timing, I think not.

FCPS is whining again about the budget deficit and they just sent out a mass email today. Now is the time for taxpayers to get involved and tell them no new building construction or renovations for 2 years. This is what it said:

"Citizens who are unable to attend the community dialogues can pass along their comments and suggestions by calling 703-324-9400 or completing a budget feedback form at www.fairfaxcounty.gov/budget."

Clifton went down hill right after Trummers came.

wow, I thought this thread died out a while ago.
The bottom line is that the county needs to stop hemorrhaging OUR money, period. Until the economy recovers, Ffx Co. has NO business spending $76 million on two new schools.
The FCPS Board is rationalizing building 2 new schools because of the projected overcrowding they are expecting in 2013. That's 4 years from now!!!
The FCPS Board projections for this year, were off by 8,000 students! There are 8,000 less students enrolled this year than what they projected.
The ONLY way to put an end to the spending is for the TAXPAYERS to speak up. Contact the school Board and county officials and tell them enough is enough! Take the 76 million you want to spend on building two NEW schools, and fix the schools we already have that are in dire need of renovations. If Clifton Elem. is one of them, fine. If it doesn't need immediate renovations, let them wait a few years. The County officials and School Board in particular need to be taken down a notch and reminded that they WORK FOR US! TAXPAYERS should decide how and when OUR money is spent.

Former hick, what did you do to throw off your "hickness" so that you are no longer a hick? Was it merely moving to the greater DC area or did you undergo some kind of therapy or something? Just curious.

Didn't realize until recently what kind of impact it is going to have on all of the other schools in the area if they close Clifton Elementary. This is a much bigger deal than I first realized. Why aren't people in Clifton getting this into the Press more? Look at this website:

www.communityschoolsfairfax.org

The Clifton people can kiss their school goodbye and should stop wasting their time and energy worrying about it. This whole thing is about creating countywide diversity and averaging out test scores and there is no way to stop FCPS from doing what they want, just ask the people from CAPS and SLEEP. There is a 3 phase plan for getting what they want:

Phase 1 - Move part of the affluent, high scoring kids from Oakton HS to South Lakes (check). This phase is incomplete as more resdistricting is planned to move Oakton kids to Fairfax HS.

Phase 2 - Build a new elementary school in Centreville, close Clifton ES, and redistrict the whole area under the false premise of overcrowding in the area so that the failing Colin Powell ES can be divided into higher scoring schools.

Phase 3 - Blow up the entire Great Falls/McLean area by redistricting Langley and McLean HS's into Herndon HS, Marshall HS, and Falls Church HS. Close a TBD ES.

Phase 4 - The closing of WT Woodson with students going to the neighboring schools, overflow from kids sent Lake Braddock will change those boundaries with current LB students sent to Annandale and Robinson.

There's more but it's useless to explain so sit back, chill, and accept that it is going to happen and you can't do a thing about it.

Did countywide diversity and averaging out test scores have something to do with the SLEEP thing not going through or are those just some of the people that know about the diversity and averaging out of test scores?

This entire thing is political B.S. The county is facing a $650 million deficit! They should not be building ANYTHING right now. If there are school that pose health risks or safety issues, those should get priority. Leave the rest of the schools alone until the economy can support renovations/additions. All 23 schools that will be impacted if Clifton closes are currently UNDER capacity! Also, when the county calculates capacity, they look at PROGRAM CAPACITY, not DESIGN CAPACITY. Each of these schools, by design, could hold more students if the spaces are used efficiently, and more teachers are hired. Instead, the county wants to shut down a perfectly good school, which is one of the top performing schools in the county, just so they can justify building a new school on the land they already own next to Liberty Middle School. The Liberty Middle school site has 80 acres available to build on. Why doesn't the county sell that land to help offset a portion of the deficit?

clifton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Liberty Middle
> school site has 80 acres available to build on.
> Why doesn't the county sell that land to help
> offset a portion of the deficit?


The property owners surrounding Liberty MS will not allow this. They bitched about building the middle school in "their" backyard and they bitch whenver the gym classes are outside making noise. They will raise all hell if anything else goes into "their" backyard

It doesn't matter how much the property owners at Liberty MS raise hell. The Board has to come up with some type of school improvement plan for Bull Run and Centre Ridge. Those schools are failing. London Towne, Deer Park and Cub Run also failed AYPs. No matter what the cost or how much the property owners around Liberty MS scream, they are going to put in a new school there and take kids from Union Mill and Clifton so they can average out the scores (no matter what the cost is to taxpayers!) The Board Members only have two years left in their terms and all they care about is how things look for them right now. If they really cared about overcrowding and LONG term growth, they wouldn't be considering closing Clifton. How do you talk about overcrowding and closing down a school at the same time. Makes no sense unless it is really about averaging out the scores.

Ugh. FCPS Board should be helping the kids that need help instead of shuffling them all over the County by building all these new schools and redistricting every time scores go down. They just refuse to accept that all of the redistricting just isn't working! Yet they do it over and over again like a broken record. They want their teachers to be top-notch and innovative but they can't fix anything themselves. If the redistricting were working, they wouldn't need to cheat on test scores like this..

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Fairfax-public-schools-officials-cheat-on-test-scores-8274810-60043947.html

watch this video about saving clifton elementary school in Clifton, VA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kWxbJ2tX5Q

and visit www.savecliftonelementary.org

My three grandkids have all gone to Clifton Elementary, and I myself live in a small town with a small school.

This is about a small NEIGHBORHOOD school. There are very few of those left. I can see why some of you don't understand what value there is to a neighborhood school, but that is unfortunate.

Clifton doesn't have bells and whistles like some of the larger newer schools, However, all three of my grandkids have had the same teachers, The principal recognizes all the kids and learns their names.

It matters. The kids have a pride in the school and it transfers over to pride in themselves. larger the school the more difficult for that kind of identification to stick. Ask educators where they would rather teach, a small school or a large impersonal one. Schools are not factories, they are communities of learning.

Rather than trash Clifton, we should be asking why all our kids can't have a neighborhood community school.

The coffee shop owner is hot!!
Attachments:

deep throat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Clifton people can kiss their school goodbye
> and should stop wasting their time and energy
> worrying about it. This whole thing is about
> creating countywide diversity and averaging out
> test scores and there is no way to stop FCPS from
> doing what they want, just ask the people from
> CAPS and SLEEP. There is a 3 phase plan for
> getting what they want:
>
> Phase 1 - Move part of the affluent, high scoring
> kids from Oakton HS to South Lakes (check). This
> phase is incomplete as more resdistricting is
> planned to move Oakton kids to Fairfax HS.
>
> Phase 2 - Build a new elementary school in
> Centreville, close Clifton ES, and redistrict the
> whole area under the false premise of overcrowding
> in the area so that the failing Colin Powell ES
> can be divided into higher scoring schools.
>
> Phase 3 - Blow up the entire Great Falls/McLean
> area by redistricting Langley and McLean HS's into
> Herndon HS, Marshall HS, and Falls Church HS.
> Close a TBD ES.
>
> Phase 4 - The closing of WT Woodson with students
> going to the neighboring schools, overflow from
> kids sent Lake Braddock will change those
> boundaries with current LB students sent to
> Annandale and Robinson.
>
> There's more but it's useless to explain so sit
> back, chill, and accept that it is going to happen
> and you can't do a thing about it.

Nice post - too bad it's mostly full of crap. Even this School Board isn't stupid enough to close Woodson right after renovating it. And Fairfax HS has almost as many students now as Oakton, so there's little chance Oakton students will be sent there.

Dumb ass.

Lets just face facts here, this is a COUNTY wide school system. It's nice to have a little town school if you live in a nice little town in New England, but the reality is Clifton ES is part of FCPS and we need to do what is good for the whole county not just Clifton. Close the school.

Facefacts apparently doesn't know all the facts. There are several small schools in FCPS it's just that nobody is talking about closing those schools.

Clifton is a Community School which is mentioned numerous times in that video.

As far as what is good for the whole County, the Fed Department of Education Secretary (which is basically FCPS boss) is now pushing FOR Community Schools. Liz Bradsher (who is the Board Representative for Clifton and many of the other schools) ran for her office saying one of the things she would work toward was "Community Schools..." .

If the BOE closes Clifton, than you have to question what is really going on here because it won't look like they are supporting Community Schools like the Fed Department of Education Secretary is telling them to do and it also would suggest they might be going against campaign promises.....

Invest the money in a new school/site. Jesus is this the frontier? Well water, no room for expansion. Oh and at less than 400 kids this school is quaint but hardly suitable for a large Metro area.

Get on the bus rich folks and enjoy the diversity. Hell, maybe we could spend the money on keeping Immersion or music for our schools!

dono Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Invest the money in a new school/site. Jesus is
> this the frontier? Well water, no room for
> expansion. Oh and at less than 400 kids this
> school is quaint but hardly suitable for a large
> Metro area.
>
> Get on the bus rich folks and enjoy the diversity.
> Hell, maybe we could spend the money on keeping
> Immersion or music for our schools!

Dono - Why do you think this is related to diversity? It's just a building. There is nothing stopping them from just changing the boundaries anytime they want and creating diversity if that is the issue. Some of the overcrowded schools are closer to Clifton Elementary than where they are talking about building the new school! Most parents would rather have their children closer to their own community because of transportation, traffic issues etc.

Plus, you are right and it is a metro area which means it is going to continue to grow! By the time they pass a bond and build a new school, the new school will already be at capacity or overcrowded! As a metro area, where are they going to put a new building if they close Clifton? They are already working at getting it on public water. Talk about short term thinking! No wonder America is in a financial mess right now -- too many people that "dono" and always thinking short term. It would be better to think about how to keep kids out of trailers than to worry about music programs.

I do not think it is at all about diversity.

I do think the site is functionally obsolete as a public school. The water and expansion issue render it same. Long term the school is not viable. A band aid fix of upgrading the water is simply throwing good money after bad for a tiny school with no expansion in my opinion.

All the schools pull students from surrounding areas to maximize the efficiency of the system. I am not sure Clifton is efficient enough to warrant upgrading is it?

This is for dono. You obviously have never stepped foot on the property or been in the school, you are just taking what you have been told for the truth. The school is in terrific condition and there is room for expansion if that was deemed necessary to retain it. The families who attend the school will tell you they would rather keep the school just as it is and use the money for other schools if that would help in keeping the school. As for the water, the school has been on well water for over 100 years and it doesn't hinder the kids from getting a great education and no one is walking around deformed and glowing in the dark. Only now is it becoming an issue?? You are fooling yourself if you don't think other factors are involved in calling for it's closure.

dono Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not think it is at all about diversity.
>
> I do think the site is functionally obsolete as a
> public school. The water and expansion issue
> render it same. Long term the school is not
> viable. A band aid fix of upgrading the water is
> simply throwing good money after bad for a tiny
> school with no expansion in my opinion.
>
> All the schools pull students from surrounding
> areas to maximize the efficiency of the system. I
> am not sure Clifton is efficient enough to warrant
> upgrading is it?


Regarding expansion, think of the expansion to the FCPS school system as a whole and then you will see that it is critical to keep Clifton open long term. The County has already been indicating there are no other School Board owned sites available to build in that area besides Liberty Middle. Once the new school is built and overcrowded, it will require that Clifton be open. The Town has already requested that water be brought down to the town so the process of getting an upgrade has already been started by the Town itself. That is a huge area and eventually it will be the only place in that huge area that will be on public water suitable for a school. Let's think long term and keep the kids in Fairfax out of trailers!

Plus, it isn't like it is a question of either renovate Clifton or build a new school. Regardless of what happens with Clifton, a future bond and CIP would have to include funding for a new school anyway.

Clifton Elementary will remain open for the same reason that our Langley kids will NEVER be redistricted. MONEY!

CAPS and SLEEP failed because they were all mouth and no money.

Plus lawsuits are an expensive crapshoot. You can lose even with the finest attorneys and unlimited financial resources.

Much better to put the money towards the purchase of school board members. Like most people (and ALL politicians), school board members have their price. If our friends to the south meet that price, their school stays open.

See how it works, folks? Bake sales to raise nickels and dimes for silly lawsuits and hundreds of pages of drivel posted on silly websites don't do shit!
You need to write checks with lots of zeroes on them!



(I'm not addressing this to you Cliftonites, as I'm sure you're aware of how the system works, or you wouldn't have achieved the success that you have. This is for the poor people that can only scream "THAT'S NOT FAIRRRRR!" when they get fucked by the "system".)

Alright well here's an idea. FCPS won't renovate becuase it will be really expensive to renovate/expand Clifton ES. Well everyone who lives in CLifton is rich, why not have everybody in Clifton make a healthy donation. They can pay for the water hookup and the lots of $$$ it will cost to build a second floor or in the courtyard.

Of course all the clifton people will be offended at this suggestion, so here is one for FCPS: Fuck the school. Pay for the water hookup so they can get public water and leave it at that. They don't want a renovation so screw em. Maybe give it a fresh coat of paint or replace the bathroom fixtures. Nothing else.

I didnt know the County was run to benefit one small town. Lets just do a fund raiser for Clifton residents to raise money for their school - we could throw in funds for the coffee shop too as it does not look quite big enough for the community. why I will bet many of the homes lack garage-door-openers too.

dono Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didnt know the County was run to benefit one
> small town. Lets just do a fund raiser for
> Clifton residents to raise money for their school
> - we could throw in funds for the coffee shop too
> as it does not look quite big enough for the
> community. why I will bet many of the homes lack
> garage-door-openers too.


If only the County WERE run to benefit one small town, Clifton would alraedy have public water to the Town, etc. etc. Instead, Clifton residents pay a higher porportion of taxes for far less County resources than other areas. The fundraiser is a great idea though -- they could charge people speeding through Town as a cut through to Manassas every night and the ones that throw trash out the window for the residents to pick up out of their front yards could get charged double. The ones that are dangerously tailgating behind Moms with kids in the back of thair car could get tripled fined. Within a year, the renovations would be paid for!

Those living inside the Clifton Elementary School attendance zone aren't looking for special treatment, they just want equal consideration that is given to all other schools. If the average figure for a renovation to an elementary school in Fairfax is $28,000 a student (based on the studies, there are 2 different figures quoted), then plan the renovation at Clifton using one of those figures. It can be done. Also, the water issue can be addressed. How do you think Loudoun and Prince William feed their sprinkler systems at their schools on wells? With storage tanks (above and/or below ground) and high pressure pumps. It can be done people and at a much lower cost than $19M for the building and $3M for water!

Fairfax County seems to pride itself on the quality of our educated citizenry. Tap into that pool of people. Solve the issues of overcrowding and renovations by engaging the people impacted by it and in the end you likely will wind up spending considerably less to resolve the problems and will have solutions resulting in many more satisfied residents.