Hey,

I'm currently a software engineer and sick of the field, so I'm probably enrolling in Georgetown's summer paralegal certificate program, then plan on going to law school a few years later.

Anyone in here a paralegal in NoVA or DC, or have firsthand knowledge of what the job market is really like? What kind of salary am I really looking at? Any tips on firms to look at, or firms to avoid?

Thanks

What's so bad about the software engineering field. I'm majoring in that next year. Anything I should be worried about?

No, if you enjoy it... Software engineering is great money and you are easily employable.

I'm just burnt out from it. I made the mistake of making my hobby into my career. Plus I'm way too social, I get miserable if I'm stuck sitting in a cubicle 8 hours a day

This is entirely for personal reasons. If you're an independent, detail-oriented, methodical person who thinks logically, its a great field. I think software engineering was like #2 on the "top 10 best careers" list or something.

Stay away from government contracting or telecommunications though.. at least make REALLY sure the place isn't dilbertland or a cutthroat sweatshop run by high-pressure marketing types turned managers.

Oh I do enjoy it. I do it as a job and as a hobby, but now I figure I could be burning myself out before I even get my degree. And I was thinking about government contract as a main source of income(Whoops). Well thanks for the info, and here is a free bump for you.

If you're contracting directly with the government yourself, like as a small-business owner, thats different.. I meant the big contracting/staffing/consulting firms that are all over the place here.

Ok, then yeah i'll make sure I stay away from those. Thanks!

nervous career changer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm just burnt out from it. I made the mistake of
> making my hobby into my career. Plus I'm way too
> social, I get miserable if I'm stuck sitting in a
> cubicle 8 hours a day
>

You do realize that paralegals do exactly the same thing...except for maybe 12 hours a day, right?


> Stay away from government contracting or telecommunications though.. at least > make REALLY sure the place isn't dilbertland or a cutthroat sweatshop run by high-pressure marketing types turned managers.

Ever been around lawyers? You think the marketing types are bad...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2009 09:49PM by WashingTone Locian.

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SOMEBODY LOOKED FOR SERIOUS ADVICE ON FFXU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JUST YOUR AVERAGE FFXU DBAG Wrote:
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>
> SOMEBODY LOOKED FOR SERIOUS ADVICE ON
> FFXU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I did give serious advice. If you want to get out of a mind-numbing job where you sit in a cubicle for hours on end being berated by egotistical assholes, paralegal is not the career track for you.

Try to ignore Wash Tone. He tries to tell everyone he is self employed and is super wealthy because he has his own business.
Let me be the first to tell you, selling Amway products is not a good career choice and it technically isn't your own business.

Serious Poster on FFXU Wrote:
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> Try to ignore Wash Tone. He tries to tell everyone
> he is self employed and is super wealthy because
> he has his own business.
> Let me be the first to tell you, selling Amway
> products is not a good career choice and it
> technically isn't your own business.


I never said I was "Super Wealthy." I said that I make in the mid six-figures.

And as for the paralegal thing, if the OP doesn't want a job where he spends all day in a cubicle dealing with information, he shouldn't become a paralegal.

I work in admin/support for a small Federal agency and its amazing how
many people work 10-12 hours a day in a cubicle. (I would not like it
either) Para-legals are always very busy and everything is at the whim
of the attorney's they work for. If boredom is your enemy, I'd say
find something in law enforcement. The U. S. Marshal's assigned to my
agency always seem to have interesting things to do.

To the OP,

That program at Georgetown is the #1 ranked program out of 6,500 endorsed by the ABA. I know because 2 of my paralegals graduated from there in the last 7 years. The cirriculum is about 15-18 first- and second-year law school classes (e.g. Torts, Contracts, ConLaw, Ethics, etc.) over the course of 3-semesters and to be accepted, you need 2 letters of recommendation, one from a professional (preferably, an attorney) and the other academic. If I recall correctly, you'll also need at least a 3.0 GPA in your undergraduate degree, which isn't out of reach.

My paralegals generally are self-sufficient and autonomous in their day-to-day operations doing anything from drafting agreements to financial planning. I rarely have to look over their shoulders and they are not fully dependent on me to provide them work as they work professionally based on our organization's business needs. Salary-wise, the one with 10+ years of experience makes $120k and the other with 7 years experience is at $90k. One has an office and the other a cube. It's not a lucrative profession, to say the least, but it's also one with very little liability and professional requirements.

As for your career change, I know very little about the rigors of programming but I will say that there is little difference in the typical day of an attorney and a paralegal. It is very high stress with a very high burnout rate among its professionals, but if you fancy yourself what I call a "mental athlete" and have a high degree of attention to detail, then you will thrive in this field. It is one of the fastest growing professions out there as firm clients would rather pay $200/hr. for a paralegal's time rather than $400/hr. for an attorney to do the same work. Similarly, corporations would rather pay for in-house paralegals over attorneys. It is not uncommon to see a ratio of paralegals to attorneys of 3:1.

As for the comment about lawyers being egotistical assholes, sure, you have them as you would in any profession, but they generally are in certain practice areas when extreme assholism is required (e.g. Litigation, Family Law, etc.).

Good luck to you in your quest.

Excellent points, quid.

I would mention that in my experience paralegals don't necessarily make for the best law students. Or, in other words, a paralegal background generally is not an advantage and may even be a disadvantage at some of the loftier schools inasmuch as they prefer an appellate based, highly theoretical approach over a practical one. Law school is strange - some really intelligent people never get "it" - meaning how to think like a lawyer (not necessarily a good thing from a human perspective), while others with supposedly lesser academic credentials do get "it" and do really well. It would be helpful to sit in on a first year law school class (if possible) to see if three years of the Socratic method is one's cup of tea.

Software engineers do have the option of being a patent attorney. A patent attorney with really solid technical skills who somehow manages to obtain great legal skills will continue to be in demand. My own experience reflects that they tend to be a happier bunch than many other lawyers. And an IP paralegal job likely would be more interesting than one that requires day to day document review or form filing.

+1 to Quantum in re: IP and programming. That would be a great segway for the OP to get into law. He could even work as an examiner at the PTO to gain experience.

I just asked one of my paralegals how much they paid for the program at Georgetown and he said it was about $7500, including books, back in 2002. So I suppose it's still < $10k today. Much cheaper than the $80k+ I racked up in the 90s!

To the OP, if you have any doubt whatsoever about making the jump to law school, I suggest you enter the program or do as Quantum suggested to see if the subject matter interests you before you start getting up to your eyeballs in student loans. Another thing to consider is that sometimes it doesn't pay to get a law degree unless you get into a top-tier school. I can't tell you how many lawyers I know who are making just over six-figures and are having trouble paying off their student loans. Ofcourse, if you're not motivated by potential earnings and perhaps want to become a prosecutor or other government lawyer, that is ok too. Although rare, there's nothing wrong with taking the noble route.

These are excellent responses and much appreciated. Even the sarcastic ones :)

Thankfully, I've already been accepted to the Georgetown program, and the cost is about $8000 including materials. I chose that program to get a "taste" of law before making an expensive commitment, and to begin working immediately. I'm like one of those working breed of dogs that goes a little nuts without something to do all the time.

What got me most concerned was when I asked the same sort of question to a couple of legal-related forums. I was told paralegals are "unskilled monkeys" and other responses reinforcing the low social status of a paralegal. Engineers have egos too, and suddenly becoming someone's secretary would not be good for my own.

I'm also just generally worried with the economy melting down and all, and concerned about ensuring my future employability.

However, the patent angle is a good one, and it does feel like that practice area is where the most opportunity might be for me. As for the USPTO, I've heard negative things about it from various sources, but actually did apply there anyway late last year. I've been told it takes like 6 months for them to get back to you, so I'll probably hear from them right after I graduate from the summer program. :P Anyway, I think I'd be happier in a high-stress environment, as long as I wasn't treated with disrespect.

I'll see if I can make some solid contacts with some patent lawyers, agents or patent paralegals, and see what sort of career opportunities and hardships I face in that specific practice area.

Thanks again for the replies. They are very valuable.

It seems to me if you are not a type A person, you will never get promoted in many big government contractors. Engineers don't get much respect in a lot of companies here.

Well, would you promote this type personality?
Attachments:

I will promote this
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nervous...There are some people that are quite happy in their careers with the USPTO. And there are more positions available than just a patent examiner - a software engineer with good legal credentials would be a boon to the copyright section as well, for example.

But the object of working for the USPTO is the invaluable experience gained. If one stays because they like it, great, but the experience is really valued in the private sector.

As far as the untrained monkeys silly comment, I want people with passion and a desire to get better in my practice. And to that end, some paralegals produce more value than their lawyer peers and are a better value. If they are that good, long term I do recommend law school, but the bottom line is and always will remain it is about adding value. That matters more than what others think about your social status (this having been said, don't go to a firm that does not treat paralegals well).

And by the way, law school is a great experience for program management, especially with your software skills (including escalation to senior management). The ability to read and interpret contracts (and push lawyers and legal professionals in the right direction) is invaluable. The problem is that it is rarely worth taking on the debt to have that feather in your cap. Beware of debt - it is a killer and will remain so in this deflationary, credit squeezed economy for some time.

another number Wrote:
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> I will promote this


LOL!

quantum Wrote:
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> nervous...There are some people that are quite
> happy in their careers with the USPTO. And there
> are more positions available than just a patent
> examiner - a software engineer with good legal
> credentials would be a boon to the copyright
> section as well, for example.
>

There is no copyright section at the USPTO. Copyrights in the U.S. are handled by the Library of Congress. Also, the PTO is in the middle of a hiring freeze, so getting hired right now is basically impossible. Another option is to take the patent bar and become a patent agent, no law degree necessary. The market is pretty tight right now but software engineers seem to always be in need. If you get in one of the bigger firms as an agent, they can be convinced to pay for law school if you choose to pursue that in the future. Good luck

Debt is a killer indeed. Remember that student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy. So if you get into a good school, not only will you owe $100k+ before you even take the bar, but it will stay with you forever.

Anyway, here's "law student-related" graph someone had posted on another site.
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Interesting perspective. I think smaller firms have paralegals do a lot more than large firms do. I work for a major firm and our paralegals (except very senior ones) have limited roles.....Filing preparation, document review, cite checking, case file management, etc.

Its high stress and you are surrounded by a lot of people who lack basic interaction skills. That includes partners who became partners (or often, of counsels) because they're extremely shewd but could are so socially inept and awkward that they couldn't persuade Susan Boyle into sex (they could certainly talk at length about the Colorado River doctrine, but god....), first year associates who are being paid $160,000 a year and whose shit don't stink, and secretaries who believe that they are God simply because they work for the big name partner.

My paralegals are range from ho-hum to being quite good. Salary is often on the low side (I'd say 35,000 to 85,000), but if you are the type that loves money and you dont feel like torturing youself, you can close to double that salary by loading up on overtime.

As to GU, some firms couldn't give a shit if you took the program or not. The question is whether you're motivated to work and if you're ready to be subserviant to people like me....

Wow, you must be in either litigation or general corporate because your mid-level paralegals are making what my secretary makes ($70k). Are they part-time or under-utilized? Or does the $35k person handle administrative assistant-type duties like filing and basic correspondence? We have to pay our two superstars $90-120k base as they deal specifically with derivatives, securities and trust administration. Although they didn't get one this year, their typical bonus is 10% of base. We consider ourselves lucky because outside of NYC, we'd be hard pressed to replace them. They operate as an attorney would in most situations, minus the license.

We've got three or for levels of paralegals. The $35 salary types are the just out of college - "I really want to go law school" types - about 2/3 of whom never want to darken the doors of a law firm after about 2 years here.

Itrade - It's a good weeding-out process, indeed. I know the same proportion of what we called "project assistants" leave after the first year because they realize law is not for them. Conversely, I know more than a handful of lawyers who get their law degrees, go to work at big firms until their loans are paid off, then leave because they can't hack it or become burned out.

In fact, to the OP, you should consider getting a job as an entry-level paralegal at a blue-chip firm downtown while you're in the GU program. I'm afraid the academic side is nothing compared to real-life experience in this case. If you can stomach the rigors for about a year after your schooling is complete, blend in with the dynamic and work the long hours, then I'd say you've got yourself a new career for the long-term.