School Board members are starting to back off on the later start time proposals:

School board member Kathy Smith (Sully) said that members of the community have asked for a fifth option — no change to the bell schedule — that she said was not being considered seriously by the administration.

School board vice chair Ted Velkoff (At Large) said that he hoped that the sleep experts at Children’s could provide data to ensure that the schedule change will actually lead to better health among Fairfax teens.

The proposal is in trouble because a scientific review of the data used in supporting later start times revealed no correlation between later start times, more sleep for teens, or better teen mental health.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/garza-recommends-later-start-time-for-fairfax-high-schools/2014/07/15/b28d83a4-0c2d-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html

They got new Supe Karen Garza to take the fall for it by making her endorse one of the proposals (Option 3). Now those who support the other options (including the SLEEP Inc. option based on no fact) have a valid reason to vote against the change.

Don't believe it for a minute. there are six solid votes for later start times regardless of the scientific evidence against it. Form your same article:

School board member Sandy Evans (Mason) said that she believes the schedule changes are the best option to improve teens’ well-being.

“This is absolutely critical to teen health,” Evans said. “I’m convinced of that.”

The Fairfax County Athletic Council, representing over a hundred thousand youth and adult athletes in Fairfax County, has come out against any change due to the disastrous effect later start times will have on community use of athletic fields. Though they also said if forced to choose one option, Option 3 would have the least impact.

Does anyone know where to obtain the VDOT study on how later start times will affect traffic?

Sandy is so convinced of it, she's going to reduce sleep for middle school kids, who require more sleep than high schoolers.

What a hypocrite.

Wrongo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't believe it for a minute. there are six
> solid votes for later start times regardless of
> the scientific evidence against it. Form your
> same article:
>
> School board member Sandy Evans (Mason) said that
> she believes the schedule changes are the best
> option to improve teens’ well-being.
>
> “This is absolutely critical to teen health,”
> Evans said. “I’m convinced of that.”

yup, I wonder how much it will benefit to start an hour later--when you lose half of the savings to the additional commute time.

The Board's only actual objective here has been to shut the worthless traps of the inane SLEEP ranters. Their claims are bogus. Their evidence is nonsense. The Board will not vote for a change in school hours because it is the parents that count here not the kids. Parents have to work. They have to arrange day care. There are athletics and other after-school activities and programs that are not going to be sacrificed. The existing bell schedule already took all of this and everything else into account and it was the best that people could come up with. Periodic tinkering has shied a way from material differences, and for very good reason -- all of the changes make matters worse.

Worse of course is just fine with the morons at SLEEP. They are just a TEA Party equivalent army of right-wing jerkwads whose only actual intent is to make FCPS look as mean and nasty as possible as often as possible in hopes of fomenting enough discontent with the public school system that it can eventually be dismantled and replaced with voucher programs that force taxpayers to foot the bill for parental decisions in favor of home-schooling and sending kids to sectarian schools. This is all the run-for-the-money stuff of Karl Rove and Grover Norquist and don't think otherwise for a single minute. The right-wing has been and still is on a crusade to destroy public education, and the WMD people don't care how many lies they have to tell in the process.

"Worse of course is just fine with the morons at SLEEP. They are just a TEA Party equivalent army of right-wing jerkwads whose only actual intent is to make FCPS look as mean and nasty as possible as often as possible in hopes of fomenting enough discontent with the public school system that it can eventually be dismantled and replaced with voucher programs that force taxpayers to foot the bill for parental decisions in favor of home-schooling and sending kids to sectarian schools. This is all the run-for-the-money stuff of Karl Rove and Grover Norquist and don't think otherwise for a single minute. The right-wing has been and still is on a crusade to destroy public education, and the WMD people don't care how many lies they have to tell in the process."

That's right. Blame it on the Tea Party. By the way, I think if you check out most of the SLEEP contingent, you will find that they are way far left. The Conservatives want to keep it like it is!

It’s estimated that the proposal will cost the school system $5,580,000 in new buses to accommodate the changes, the Post reports.

Read more: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/07/karen-garza-fairfax-county-public-schools-superintendent-endorses-later-start-times-proposal-105143.html#ixzz37fDLqTX3
Follow us: @ABC7News on Twitter | WJLATV on Facebook

Not to mention the cost for drivers and maintenance. Oh wait, I just did.

OVER FIVE AND A HALF MILLION DOLLARS? ARE THEY CRAZY???

Actual Agendas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Board's only actual objective here has been to
> shut the worthless traps of the inane SLEEP
> ranters. Their claims are bogus. Their evidence
> is nonsense.

It's fairly common knowledge that school board member Megan McLaughlin, Braddock District Representative, is a founding member of S.L.E.E.P.

"It's fairly common knowledge that school board member Megan McLaughlin, Braddock District Representative, is a founding member of S.L.E.E.P."

SLEEP is why Sandy Evans ran for SB.

This is the first time I have ever agreed with Kathy Smith on an issue.

" The proposal is in trouble because a scientific review of the data used in supporting later start times revealed no correlation between later start times, more sleep for teens, or better teen mental health." ~~~~~~~~~~

Oh really? Yeah, nevermind some intellectual prostitutes said so.

The only time Fairfax County schools ever paid attention to what the kids needed and wanted was when they " wanted" the slime burgers back because they didn't "like" the real meat patties.

VDOT Study Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone know where to obtain the VDOT study on
> how later start times will affect traffic?

I asked FCPS and VDOT and both said I needed to know the title for them to find it. If it exists, you will have to FOIA it.

Montgomery County just rejected their own plan to start high school times later.

Even the leader of the $100,000+ "study" for Fairfax County is backing off earlier claims, now just "believes" later start times may lead to a little more sleep for teens.
Attachments:

I drive 28 home each morning, when school is not in session the traffic seems to flow faster, so if school started later I could see the argument that it could possibly help traffic in the AM commute, at least for 28. LBSS started at 8:20 in the 80's I don't know when it got changed but at that time we did not have Smart Phones, Computers, Ipads, Ipods, PS3, Xbox etc.. Swimming in our community was big in the summer and weekends in the winter and most HS sports happened after school. I did fall asleep in school especially after lunch or in English and Gov't both of which where after Lunch. My suggestion is to leave it alone and Parents need to put their kids to bed and limit their activities if they are having trouble handling their studies. It wont cost Taxpayers anything if Parents would Parent. Other studies have shown that the large screens on TV and Computers also keep the mind active making a good night sleep rare, we camp 2 weeks in the summer and the only tv is for weather reports from VA beach in case storms pop up, other than that NO TV and feel much better after a few weeks of Little or no Electronics.

Yep- this will fix FCPS' issues. Don't get rid of inept teachers and arrogant and aloof admins. Move the start time back to appear as if you are doing something. Ask the kids- they have already said in numerous polls that they will just stay up later.

Great start Garza- I don't envy you following the clod Jack Dale, but thought you would not resort to inane changes so soon.

After giving teachers a pay raise of some significance, the new superintendent and Board turn it all around with many more hours for elementary staff to work and messing with EVERYBODY'S sleep time. Few, if any winners here. Preponderance of facts and data not supporting changed start times show that the Board has its private agenda and reality and the public don't matter at all. Sandy Evens (founder of SLEEPFairfax) must be grinning her face off.

Pushing school transportation into rush hour will only mean longer bus routes, negating some of the claimed benefit. From our neighborhood to middle school is about a 10 mile route. Currently bus picks up about 7:10. How much longer will 10 miles in Nova traffic take at closer to 8 o'clock.

On the other end, use of schools for sports will either be reduced or pushed back an hour, meaning kids stay up later doing homework.

It does seem like a private agenda.

Interesting that FCPS continually says they need more money but then continues spend more money. Eliminating half-day Mondays costs $7 million a year and this will cost at least $6 million by the time real estimates are made.

Where will the Board come up with $13 million when this is implemented? What are they going to cut?

We went through the later start time debate before. The community, the businesses, and even the students all said a loud and resounding, "NO", but here we are a few years later with the community again saying no and the district not even allowing no change to be an option.

Why would anyone think the district really wanted to know what the community wanted? The community spoke and once again they are saying the same thing.

When a district has no money, why are they taking a free option that the community wants off of the table?

I’m thinking the cost will be astronomical AND FOR NOTHING! What a stink'n waste! A futile act from the start. and the research supports NOTHING! A waste of money. A waste of time. A waste of energy and effort and brain power. A catalyst for confusion and frustration with new schedules and new traffic patterns. AND NEW Sleep patterns! This is a recipe for more depression and angst NOT LESS!!!

Here's the thing to think about. Even after placing phones and all electronics off. Most highschool students cannot fall asleep until after 11o clock. Believe it or not, we need more sleep. It's ridiculous that students must wake up at 5am to get to school on time. If student want to get 8hours of sleep, students have to fall asleep by 9pm. Which happens to be very difficult given their body clocks. Ideally teens should get about 9hours of sleep to allow their brain to develop properly, and while 9PM is difficult, 8PM is near impossible. It's often still light outside at those hours. In counties that they have done this with, grades improved drastically. It makes sense when you look at this simple logic.

Typically elementary school students go to bed earlier
Typically high school students go to bed later

WHY do we have high school students at school earlier?
Why are elementary students going to school later?


Think about it.

^^^ SLEEP Post ^^^

Lie >>> "In counties that they have done this with, grades improved drastically."

My kid wakes up at 6 am and is in school by 7:10. It's not that difficult.

Is there anyone not involved with S.L.E.E.P. that wants later start times?

Seems like they are having some difficulty selling their message.

Hey kids, now its time to drag your parents to get a new bed and mattress! If you're going to be sleeping in now, why not sleep on one of our top of the line, foreign made piece of shit beds just right for you!
Attachments:

From the SLEEP website:

"The school board is another step closer to reaching its goal to start high schools at or after 8:00 a.m. Children's National Medical Center (CNMC) reported at the School Board's work session on Monday, highlighting community and stakeholder feedback. Based on that report, and the announcement that the Fairfax County Athletic Council supports Option 3, board members and Superintendent Garza voiced nearly unanimous support to refine and improve Option 3, the middle school/high school flip."

Of course, the Fairfax County Athletic Council does not support Option 3. Their letter makes clear that Options 1, 2, and 4 are not acceptable at all, and that Option 3 is only the best of the worst.

THE ATHLETIC COMMUNITY IS AGAINST ANY CHANGE IN SCHOOL START TIMES.

Of course Karen Garza is happy to spend $5.6 million to grease her relationship with a school board bent on private agendas. It's not her money she's spending.

You're surprised that SLEEP is lying? If you can navigate their shitty website, you will find that the research isn't nearly as solid as they claim or really doesn't apply to Fairfax.

Another SLEEP lie: This change was going to be cost neutral or even save money. That's a $6 million lie.


Lies and More Lies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From the SLEEP website:
>
> "The school board is another step closer to
> reaching its goal to start high schools at or
> after 8:00 a.m. Children's National Medical Center
> (CNMC) reported at the School Board's work session
> on Monday, highlighting community and stakeholder
> feedback. Based on that report, and the
> announcement that the Fairfax County Athletic
> Council supports Option 3, board members and
> Superintendent Garza voiced nearly unanimous
> support to refine and improve Option 3, the middle
> school/high school flip."
>
> Of course, the Fairfax County Athletic Council
> does not support Option 3. Their letter makes
> clear that Options 1, 2, and 4 are not acceptable
> at all, and that Option 3 is only the best of the
> worst.
>
> THE ATHLETIC COMMUNITY IS AGAINST ANY CHANGE IN
> SCHOOL START TIMES.

How can the school board even contemplate spending $5.6 million dollars for an initiative with more cons than pros when the system is facing an unprecedented crisis that is clearly diminishing the quality of education? Bad for students. Bad for athletic programs. Bad for commuters. Bad for taxpayers.

No SLEEP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^^^ SLEEP Post ^^^
>
> Lie >>> "In counties that they have done this
> with, grades improved drastically."
>
> My kid wakes up at 6 am and is in school by 7:10.
> It's not that difficult.


if your kid wakes up at 6am, he or she isn't dealing with a bus time that many students in fairfax like ours.

try getting on the bus just after 6am. our kids have suffered for years. even worse is that we are a secondary school so ours have to do it for 6 years.

when you have kids who are athletes they also don't get home from games until very late. telling them just to go to bed is not possible.

The FCPS SLEEP initiative is the best example you will ever find of rearranging the deck chairs while the ship sinks.

Other Folks' Money Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of course Karen Garza is happy to spend $5.6
> million to grease her relationship with a school
> board bent on private agendas. It's not her money
> she's spending.


Of course, Its not much work to run a school system that gets whatever funding it asks for, never has to cut back on anything, and is not accountable to anyone. The real administrators are those who have to make the machine work when they required to stay within a certain budget instead of raping the taxpayer with increased real estate and personal property taxes.

LBmommode Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> if your kid wakes up at 6am, he or she isn't
> dealing with a bus time that many students in
> fairfax like ours.

I know there are kids in the western part of the county who do get picked up at 6:00. However be honest here. What time do those kids actually arrive at school?

I say that because many of these early pickups are not caused just by the time the bus needs to run its route and get to the school. They are caused by the time the bus needs to start its next run. If your kids need to be at the bus stop at 6:00, but are getting to school at 6:30 or 6:40, the problem isn't the bell schedule. The problem is bus allocations.

Also I am curious-what sport do your kids do that requires them to stay after school later than 5:00 to 5:30 for practice.

it's not just the practices. as said above, they get home late from games and they work hard to be good students and good athletes. the early arrival at school bus buses is true and isn't fair that some students have to pay the price of the early start times to make it livable for others.
i think the late school start time plan is the school system trying to find a way to provide a better situation for as many students as they can. it won't be perfect and everyone won't be happy but that's how progress begins. the people who are saying it won't work should try and share ways to make it work better for even more than the plan.
i hope more people look for ways to work together on this than just trying to tear apart each side. everyone wants the kids to benefit so that should be the focus.

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LBmommode Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > if your kid wakes up at 6am, he or she isn't
> > dealing with a bus time that many students in
> > fairfax like ours.
>
> I know there are kids in the western part of the
> county who do get picked up at 6:00. However be
> honest here. What time do those kids actually
> arrive at school?
>
> I say that because many of these early pickups are
> not caused just by the time the bus needs to run
> its route and get to the school. They are caused
> by the time the bus needs to start its next run.
> If your kids need to be at the bus stop at 6:00,
> but are getting to school at 6:30 or 6:40, the
> problem isn't the bell schedule. The problem is
> bus allocations.
>
> Also I am curious-what sport do your kids do that
> requires them to stay after school later than 5:00
> to 5:30 for practice.


To answer your curiosity, the schools are numerous activities in after-school hours. These activities include sports, scouting, and many other things. They cannot start until the schools are cleared of students. If students get out later, then practices etc. must go later or the amount of court space etc. must be reduced. For example, if a kid plays rec league basketball, their practice will very likely be at a school. To offer the same amount of court time, the schools would have to stay open later. Sometimes adults are using these facilities as well.

Also, the change will push the buses more into the morning AND evening rush hours. This will inconvenience students as well as every commuter in Fairfax County.

Maybe we should just build a whole lot more artificial turf fields.

Get real... Its a known fact that teenagers naturally have a need to stay up later and aren't fully there. The ones who can adjust to the early morning schedule are either the perfect robot or the perfectly conditioned, well-socialized psychopaths. That's all society has room for or is concerned about.

The school system has been on a mission to dumb kids down yet, make them think they've had every opportunity in the world since about 1914. Sure, the cream may rise to the top and everyone else can work at Walmart or go to prison.

Most if these kids aren't learning anything before noon and that's the point. People with money honestly don't like to waste it as far as spending $20,000-50,000 a year on private school. Perfect point that public school is designed to fail the masses.

Yes, FCPS has failed so badly that it has some of the highest test scores in the nation and over 91% of the students move on to college. Many other school systems would love to fail this badly.

Sleep, if it's a factor in learning, appears to be a very minor one.


ohplease... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Get real... Its a known fact that teenagers
> naturally have a need to stay up later and aren't
> fully there. The ones who can adjust to the early
> morning schedule are either the perfect robot or
> the perfectly conditioned, well-socialized
> psychopaths. That's all society has room for or is
> concerned about.
>
> The school system has been on a mission to dumb
> kids down yet, make them think they've had every
> opportunity in the world since about 1914. Sure,
> the cream may rise to the top and everyone else
> can work at Walmart or go to prison.
>
> Most if these kids aren't learning anything
> before noon and that's the point. People with
> money honestly don't like to waste it as far as
> spending $20,000-50,000 a year on private school.
> Perfect point that public school is designed to
> fail the masses.

A bunch of texts over the weekend shows that they may not have the votes to approve any change in school start times. We'll see.

FCPS School Board Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> School Board members are starting to back off on
> the later start time proposals:
>
> School board member Kathy Smith (Sully) said that
> members of the community have asked for a fifth
> option — no change to the bell schedule — that
> she said was not being considered seriously by the
> administration.
>
> School board vice chair Ted Velkoff (At Large)
> said that he hoped that the sleep experts at
> Children’s could provide data to ensure that the
> schedule change will actually lead to better
> health among Fairfax teens.
>
> The proposal is in trouble because a scientific
> review of the data used in supporting later start
> times revealed no correlation between later start
> times, more sleep for teens, or better teen mental
> health.
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/garz
> a-recommends-later-start-time-for-fairfax-high-sch
> ools/2014/07/15/b28d83a4-0c2d-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767f
> c2_story.html


Bogus. The article states no no claim of scientific evidence for or against. Nor does the reference to the Montgomery Co. recommendation contain mention of evidence. Why the spin?

My kid starts middle school next year and its a 545 wake up for us now. How many of you get up before 6am? Not many Im guessing. So why is it good for a 12 year old to get up an hour and a half before sunrise? You are all upset because you dont want your early day care to be changed.

This thread is totally bogus with most posts by one person. There is plenty of evidence supporting later starts. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS595US595&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=do%20later%20start%20times%20really%20help%20high%20school%20students

The entire premise of this thread is a lie. Go to the link read the data - Later starts improve HS students health and academic achievement.

Another false assumption is that Montgomery Co. rejected late starts because of lack of scientific evidence. They are revisiting it because of cost alone. No one disputes the data on the fact later starts benefit students. In fact, Montgomery Co. is looking to the Fairfax solution as possible salvation. Turns out Fairfax plans are a lot cheaper to implement than Mont. Co. plans.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/montgomery-to-re-examine-later-start-times-for-high-school-students/2014/06/17/71dc6a50-f65c-11e3-8aa9-dad2ec039789_story.html

Sorry OP you may lose your pre-sunrise day care yet. Sorry about that.

>>>My kid wakes up at 6 am and is in school by 7:10. It's not that difficult.

Try waking your kid up at 5. That's what highschool students have to do.

How about you ask the high schoolers?! What do they want? I'm sure 99%of them hate waking up at 5am. Think about it...

Let me translate for "Pipe It Down" and the others who just posted in response to the waning prospects for this FCPS sleep boondoggle:

Pipe down taxpayers when we move to spend $5.6 million of your money rearranging the school schedule, with these kids going earlier, these later.

Pipe down commuters who will have many more buses operating in prime rush hours.

Pipe down parents, coaches, and players who will be faced with more limited access to fields and courts and later practice/game times.

We don't like to hear squawking from the citizenry while we are planning your lives. We are government officials, dammit.

Lies and More Lies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From the SLEEP website:
>
> "The school board is another step closer to
> reaching its goal to start high schools at or
> after 8:00 a.m. Children's National Medical Center
> (CNMC) reported at the School Board's work session
> on Monday, highlighting community and stakeholder
> feedback. Based on that report, and the
> announcement that the Fairfax County Athletic
> Council supports Option 3, board members and
> Superintendent Garza voiced nearly unanimous
> support to refine and improve Option 3, the middle
> school/high school flip."
>
> Of course, the Fairfax County Athletic Council
> does not support Option 3. Their letter makes
> clear that Options 1, 2, and 4 are not acceptable
> at all, and that Option 3 is only the best of the
> worst.
>
> THE ATHLETIC COMMUNITY IS AGAINST ANY CHANGE IN
> SCHOOL START TIMES.


Well that's just tough

The number one job of schools is, not surprisingly, EDUCATION

The fact that there is any after hours use of school facilities for athletics is a bonus

High school bus times are just too early. It's easily fixed and its not expensive

If you're so concerned about athletic facilities - fund athletic facilities.

Simple start - ring up your supervisor and state representatives and ask them why such a high percentage of your taxes go to Richmond and never come back. Get the Northern Virginia caucus to stand up and do their job rather than bailing out the rural hinterland. Then you can have nice stuff

In the meantime, high schoolers should not have to be out of the house at 6 am

Well that's just tough

The number one job of schools is, not surprisingly, EDUCATION

" The fact that there is any after hours use of school facilities for athletics is a bonus

High school bus times are just too early. It's easily fixed and its not expensive

If you're so concerned about athletic facilities - fund athletic facilities.

Simple start - ring up your supervisor and state representatives and ask them why such a high percentage of your taxes go to Richmond and never come back. Get the Northern Virginia caucus to stand up and do their job rather than bailing out the rural hinterland. Then you can have nice stuff

In the meantime, high schoolers should not have to be out of the house at 6 am"

Well, I don't think many kids have to be out of the house by 6--unless you're in that group in Great Falls who fought to stay at Langley.

So, how do you feel about drama, yearbook, chorus, band, robotics, etc.etc? All of those are after school activities. How about the kids who need after school jobs?

^All of the above is totally doable with later start times. It is done in many places and very successfully. School activities can also be held before school starts. And, as mentioned, education should not revolve around the extracurricular programs. Those programs should revolve around education. A focus on education has to be kept.

Pipe tf down Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How about you ask the high schoolers?! What do
> they want? I'm sure 99%of them hate waking up at
> 5am. Think about it...

They were asked. Overwhelmingly the students want to keep the current start times. It's more important to them to be done before 3:00. A lot pointed out that they arrive before 7:00 now to get things done before school starts.

how about education? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> School activities can also be held
> before school starts.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a later start time?

> And, as mentioned, education should not revolve around the extracurricular
> programs. Those programs should revolve around education. A focus on education
> has to be kept.

The reason why the later start times proposal is in trouble is that when some of the school board members looked at the studies, they found no correlation between later start times and academic achievement.

Kids need more sleep = true.
Later start times mean more sleep = false.
Later start times mean better academic achievement = false.

Kids, parents, teachers don't want start times changed.

pleasedon;t create strawmen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well that's just tough
>
> The number one job of schools is, not
> surprisingly, EDUCATION
>
> " The fact that there is any after hours use of
> school facilities for athletics is a bonus
>
> High school bus times are just too early. It's
> easily fixed and its not expensive
>
> If you're so concerned about athletic facilities
> - fund athletic facilities.
>
> Simple start - ring up your supervisor and state
> representatives and ask them why such a high
> percentage of your taxes go to Richmond and never
> come back. Get the Northern Virginia caucus to
> stand up and do their job rather than bailing out
> the rural hinterland. Then you can have nice
> stuff
>
> In the meantime, high schoolers should not have
> to be out of the house at 6 am"
>
> Well, I don't think many kids have to be out of
> the house by 6--unless you're in that group in
> Great Falls who fought to stay at Langley.
>
> So, how do you feel about drama, yearbook, chorus,
> band, robotics, etc.etc? All of those are after
> school activities. How about the kids who need
> after school jobs?


Its not just Langley that has the early morning problem, especially given how tightly clustered the high schools are around vienna, oakton etc. As a result, the catchments are can be highly asymmetrical

I fail to see why "drama, yearbook, chorus, band, robotics," would be adversely affected. Even if the schools finished at 4, a 9 minute after school session would be done by 5:30.

The after school jobs issue is an increasingly marginal one in Fairfax. At the end of the day, schools are there to maximize education not pocket money.

pleasedon;t create strawmen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Simple start - ring up your supervisor and state
> representatives and ask them why such a high
> percentage of your taxes go to Richmond and never
> come back. Get the Northern Virginia caucus to
> stand up and do their job rather than bailing out
> the rural hinterland. Then you can have nice
> stuff

This has to be one of the more naïve statements on this forum. Do you think all these years our Senators and Delegates have been sitting on their hands, or have been ignorant of the revenue-expenditure imbalance? The problem has traditionally been that there simply were not enough votes from Nova or even from NoVa and Tidewater combined to overcome the rest of the state. Adding to the problem recently has been that NoVa has drifted more into the liberal-Democratic camp while the rest of the state has remained conservative and has gone Republican.

The real question is why the community was not involved in coming up with these 4 options and, more importantly, the "5th" option. 5 years ago 77% favored no change (numbers I saw at a public "forum") in a survey. How do you hide that majority this time around? By not allowing the community to be surveyed again.

Several weeks ago, I heard one of the male FCPS school board members (don't know which one) being interviewed on the radio. He was discussing the upcoming public meetings on changing school start times. The interviewer noted that, from what the school board member said, it was already decided that change would be made and asked why hold the public meeting? Member responded that the decision had been made but people wanted to have input and final decision on which new schedule had not been made. So it is correct that the FCPS did not care about public input.

If only the peasants would stop complaining about how the fief is being run . . .

Pipe tf down Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How about you ask the high schoolers?!

OK, but ask them the real question-How many high school students want to be in school later in the day? Also ask them how many would be willing to stay at school an hour later if it meant they could wake up 40 minutes later*.

The problem with asking high school students is that most want to ask the question in a vacuum. Sure a large number of high school students would love to start school later. The number drops when it is indicated what the cost of that later start would be, and it drops further when the true benefit of the later start times is indicated.

(*To allow for increased travel time because the busses will be running in heavier traffic.)

The last time this issue came up, the high school students I teach were all for starting school after 9:00, until they found out school would let out at 4:00. They quickly became 100% opposed.

As for after school activities, sure, they could start at 4:10 an end at 5:30, if the teachers were willing to stay that long. At my school, many teachers cannot afford to live near the school and commute long distances. Many teachers will have to reduce the amount of unpaid time they put in after school because they want to be home before 7:00 or 8:00 pm. I'm lucky that I live near my school, but with the current schedule, it is rare that I don't leave school two or three hours after classes end, which makes to 4:00 - 5:00 pm. I'm not going to stay at school until almost 7:00 pm.

Your evidence is a Google search? What a joke.

Since you've obviously read all of this research, please explain how FCPS has a well performing system despite the claimed too early start times.

I'm not trying to say that "FAIRFAX IS THE BEST!", but the objective evidence shows it's better than most of the school systems out there (even ones with later start times).

So, go ahead, please explain.

plenty of evidence Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread is totally bogus with most posts by
> one person. There is plenty of evidence
> supporting later starts.
> https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-insta
> nt&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS595US595&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#
> q=do%20later%20start%20times%20really%20help%20hig
> h%20school%20students
>
> The entire premise of this thread is a lie. Go to
> the link read the data - Later starts improve HS
> students health and academic achievement.

You want extracurriculars to happen before school, which will reduce sleep, but you want the schools to start later so kids can sleep longer? Do you see how stupid you sound?

Also, your assumption that extracurriculars have no educational value is false.

how about education? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^All of the above is totally doable with later
> start times. It is done in many places and very
> successfully. School activities can also be held
> before school starts. And, as mentioned,
> education should not revolve around the
> extracurricular programs. Those programs should
> revolve around education. A focus on education
> has to be kept.

AU2008 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many teachers will have to
> reduce the amount of unpaid time they put in after
> school because they want to be home before 7:00 or
> 8:00 pm.

Unpaid time....you're funny.

SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your evidence is a Google search? What a joke.
>
> Since you've obviously read all of this research,
> please explain how FCPS has a well performing
> system despite the claimed too early start times.
>
> I'm not trying to say that "FAIRFAX IS THE BEST!",
> but the objective evidence shows it's better than
> most of the school systems out there (even ones
> with later start times).
>
> So, go ahead, please explain.
>
> plenty of evidence Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This thread is totally bogus with most posts by
> > one person. There is plenty of evidence
> > supporting later starts.
> >
> https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-insta
>
> >
> nt&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS595US595&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#
>
> >
> q=do%20later%20start%20times%20really%20help%20hig
>
> > h%20school%20students
> >
> > The entire premise of this thread is a lie. Go
> to
> > the link read the data - Later starts improve
> HS
> > students health and academic achievement.

Im not going to do your reading for you numbskull. Its bad enough I had to use google for you. Read through any of the articles and you will find the references to peer reviewed articles. The claim that there is no scientific basis for improved performance through later start times is false as are the claims that that false claim is the basis for not moving times back. Basically you wont read a google list but you will believe the OP having some fun with fooling you. Not a surprise really...

Radio Listener Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Several weeks ago, I heard one of the male FCPS
> school board members (don't know which one) being
> interviewed on the radio. He was discussing the
> upcoming public meetings on changing school start
> times. The interviewer noted that, from what the
> school board member said, it was already decided
> that change would be made and asked why hold the
> public meeting? Member responded that the decision
> had been made but people wanted to have input and
> final decision on which new schedule had not been
> made. So it is correct that the FCPS did not care
> about public input.*
>
> If only the peasants would stop complaining about
> how the fief is being run . . .

Except for the fact they have been having public meeting on this for 2 years, conducted a study and continue to have meeting on this - other than that you are absolutely right!

Not a surprise really... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Your evidence is a Google search? What a joke.
> >
> > Since you've obviously read all of this
> research,
> > please explain how FCPS has a well performing
> > system despite the claimed too early start
> times.
> >
> > I'm not trying to say that "FAIRFAX IS THE
> BEST!",
> > but the objective evidence shows it's better
> than
> > most of the school systems out there (even ones
> > with later start times).
> >
> > So, go ahead, please explain.
> >
> > plenty of evidence Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > This thread is totally bogus with most posts
> by
> > > one person. There is plenty of evidence
> > > supporting later starts.
> > >
> >
> https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-insta
>
> >
> > >
> >
> nt&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS595US595&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#
>
> >
> > >
> >
> q=do%20later%20start%20times%20really%20help%20hig
>
> >
> > > h%20school%20students
> > >
> > > The entire premise of this thread is a lie.
> Go
> > to
> > > the link read the data - Later starts improve
> > HS
> > > students health and academic achievement.
>
> Im not going to do your reading for you numbskull.
> Its bad enough I had to use google for you. Read
> through any of the articles and you will find the
> references to peer reviewed articles. The claim
> that there is no scientific basis for improved
> performance through later start times is false as
> are the claims that that false claim is the basis
> for not moving times back. Basically you wont
> read a google list but you will believe the OP
> having some fun with fooling you. Not a surprise
> really...

A typical non-answer from a SLEEP drone. Also, you should get some more sleep - your post barely makes any sense. If this how you write, I doubt you can read these peer-reviewed articles.

absolutely right! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Radio Listener Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Several weeks ago, I heard one of the male FCPS
> > school board members (don't know which one)
> being
> > interviewed on the radio. He was discussing the
> > upcoming public meetings on changing school
> start
> > times. The interviewer noted that, from what
> the
> > school board member said, it was already
> decided
> > that change would be made and asked why hold
> the
> > public meeting? Member responded that the
> decision
> > had been made but people wanted to have input
> and
> > final decision on which new schedule had not
> been
> > made. So it is correct that the FCPS did not
> care
> > about public input.*
> >
> > If only the peasants would stop complaining
> about
> > how the fief is being run . . .
>
> Except for the fact they have been having public
> meeting on this for 2 years, conducted a study and
> continue to have meeting on this - other than that
> you are absolutely right!

The meetings are just window washing, public input is just ignored. They are being held merely so that they claim they had meetings.

The "study" has produced a poorly constructed website and some PowerPoint slides, none of which explain exactly how this change will benefit the community.

Let me sum that research:

There is a great deal of scientific research indicating that high school kids on average should be getting around 9 hours sleep per night, that there is a tendency of high school age kids to try to shift their sleeping hours so they go to bed later and wake up later, and ON THE WHOLE and ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL high school age kids would be better off starting school later in the morning. It isn't just that kids are lazy.

Now for the caveats which the research SLEEP advocates rely on tend to ignore:
1. While many high school kids would be better off with a later start time, high school students are individuals, not aggregates. There are a large number who are performing just fine with the current start time. There are also a large number for whom even getting up at 6:40 or 7:00 would not provide enough additional sleep to make an impact.
2. A later start time will mean a later end of the normal school day. This will in turn mean reduced time to be spent on a number of other activities, including not only work, sports and other extracurriculars, or it will mean those activities are shifted to later in the day/evening. It will also mean less time is available for afternoon naps (for kids who still won't get enough sleep) and less time in the combined afternoon and evening hours to do school work, assuming kids will be going to bed at the same time.
3. Early school start times tend to limit kids nighttime activities. With later start times kids will stay up later and stay active later, negating the benefits of later start times.
4. Sleep research has also shown natural sleep patterns can be changed through a combination of alterations to the routine, diet and physical environment so that kids can get the required amount of sleep. Where SLEEP advocates admit this does exist they contend it is not a realistic alternative for today's busy children.

The final point is that the high school start time does not operate in a vacuum. A later ends to school days may result in after school activities being switched to before school, again negating the benefits of later start times. Due to traffic issues many students will only get 40-45 minutes of additional sleep in return for an hour shift in start and end times, plus probably longer travel time as home as well. Switching the start time will mean either coming up with more busses to transport high school kids...or it will mean switching other kids to less desirable start or end times. (Given the school budgeting the latter is likely. It is probably what killed the bell schedule change last time around.) It will impact parents work schedules, and it will increase truancy issues for those parents who cannot start working later in the day. It will mean that you have more relatively inexperienced high school age drivers driving during morning and evening rush hours. It may impact employer's willingness to hire high school kids, which in turn may increase the demand for alternative sources of low skill labor (i.e. illegal aliens). It will affect the ability of certain community programs to operate, as high school kids who help out with these will not be available on weekdays.

Most SLEEP advocates are single issue people. While some SLEEP opponents are just assholes, others are looking at the big picture and saying it isn't worth it.

SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not a surprise really... Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Your evidence is a Google search? What a
> joke.
> > >
> > > Since you've obviously read all of this
> > research,
> > > please explain how FCPS has a well performing
> > > system despite the claimed too early start
> > times.
> > >
> > > I'm not trying to say that "FAIRFAX IS THE
> > BEST!",
> > > but the objective evidence shows it's better
> > than
> > > most of the school systems out there (even
> ones
> > > with later start times).
> > >
> > > So, go ahead, please explain.
> > >
> > > plenty of evidence Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > This thread is totally bogus with most
> posts
> > by
> > > > one person. There is plenty of evidence
> > > > supporting later starts.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-insta
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> nt&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS595US595&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> q=do%20later%20start%20times%20really%20help%20hig
>
> >
> > >
> > > > h%20school%20students
> > > >
> > > > The entire premise of this thread is a lie.
>
> > Go
> > > to
> > > > the link read the data - Later starts
> improve
> > > HS
> > > > students health and academic achievement.
> >
> > Im not going to do your reading for you
> numbskull.
> > Its bad enough I had to use google for you.
> Read
> > through any of the articles and you will find
> the
> > references to peer reviewed articles. The
> claim
> > that there is no scientific basis for improved
> > performance through later start times is false
> as
> > are the claims that that false claim is the
> basis
> > for not moving times back. Basically you wont
> > read a google list but you will believe the OP
> > having some fun with fooling you. Not a
> surprise
> > really...
>
> A typical non-answer from a SLEEP drone. Also,
> you should get some more sleep - your post barely
> makes any sense. If this how you write, I doubt
> you can read these peer-reviewed articles.

My writing makes sense if you understand English. Sorry you are not used to reading English.

Yawn…. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The real question is why the community was not
> involved in coming up with these 4 options and,
> more importantly, the "5th" option. 5 years ago
> 77% favored no change (numbers I saw at a public
> "forum") in a survey. How do you hide that
> majority this time around? By not allowing the
> community to be surveyed again.


And that, my friend, is why we pay consultants to run these meetings using the "small group" Socratic method.

prior poster is clueless Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's right. Blame it on the Tea Party. By the
> way, I think if you check out most of the SLEEP
> contingent, you will find that they are way far
> left. The Conservatives want to keep it like it
> is!

You are horribly misinformed. And likely not yet a sophomore in high school. SLEEP is a bunch of right-wing grass-roots populists intent on attacking liberal FCPS, its liberal union teachers, and liberal education icons such as Jack Dale and Karen Garza. Like most such organizations, their claims are bogus and their evidence is phony. They are merely partisan noise- and trouble-makers. They don't actually care about schools or students at all.

Other Agendas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's fairly common knowledge that school board
> member Megan McLaughlin, Braddock District
> Representative, is a founding member of S.L.E.E.P.

That's fairly common bullshit. SLEEP was founded in January 2004 by Phyllis Payne and Sandy Evans. Megan McLaughlin is a Democrat-endorsed candidate who has been one of the school board's mouthpieces in the shut-the-loonies-up campaign. Yes, yes, she is working hard along with other board members to find compromise solutions and an alternative bell schedule plan that the County can afford. In other words, forget about it.

Sandy Evans is also a Democrat endorsed candidate. All are except for Schultz and Reed.

As Daylight Savings Time proves twice a year, clock times are an artificial overlay. They don't mean anything. All that could possibly matter for the actual health of students would be the AMOUNT of sleep they choose to get, NOT the hours between which it occurs. If high school students actually benefited from getting NINE hours of sleep a night, it would not the the case that virtually NONE OF THEM actually choose to get that much, no matter when school starts the next day. And keep in mind as well that many among these delicate high school seniors will be off to college in the Fall, and there they will be pulling all-nighters, partying to all hours of the morning, and still managing to get huge amounts of reading, studying, and learning done. If anything, short sleep cycles in high school would be an important training regimen for what comes next.

Actual Agendas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Other Agendas Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> Megan McLaughlin is a Democrat-endorsed candidate
> who has been one of the school board's mouthpieces
> in the shut-the-loonies-up campaign.

Please let us know When Megan announces that she will not vote with the loonies who want to spend $5 MILLION to start/end high school 40 minutes later.

I graduated from FCPS a few years ago. Running on minimal sleep was very, very good training for college.

Want to sleep later, half the year? Easy! Don't shift back and forth between standard and daylight savings time. When everyone else says it is 6 am, your clock will say it is 7. Let us know if your kid does better in school.

Or take away your kids' cell phones and all other electronics at bedtime so they can get a good night's sleep.

Neither of these options will mess up the commutes of everyone else in the County.

Several middle schools have kids ride the same bus and have the same or almost the same schedule as their high schools. This makes perfect sense for grade 7-12 secondary schools and when the middle and high schools are very close together. Would these middle schoolers shift to the same later time as their high schools?

please get the facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sandy Evans is also a Democrat endorsed candidate.

Did she in fact have an opponent? Is it in fcat she or Phyllis Payne who steers SLEEP a decade after its founding?

> All are except for Schultz and Reed.

So nobody likes Republicans. Can you blame them? The point was meanwhile over the bogus claims that Megan McLaughlin was a co-founder of SLEEP and that SLEEP is some sort of left-wing operation.

My Own Agenda Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please let us know When Megan announces that she
> will not vote with the loonies who want to spend
> $5 MILLION to start/end high school 40 minutes
> later.

The last vote on the matter (2009) was 10-2 against. Bell schedules are as they are for many good and valid reasons. The reasons to change are thin and watery, watery, watery. The 2012 vote was not to do anything at all, but rather to "establish a goal" of eventually starting high school after 8:00 AM. This was a delaying tactic designed to stymie the SLEEP-screechers.

Actual Agendas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> please get the facts Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> The point was meanwhile over the bogus claims that
> Megan McLaughlin was a co-founder of SLEEP and
> that SLEEP is some sort of left-wing operation.

Do we really want to re-litigate this? Megan trounced her opponent to win a school board seat, despite her alliances.

"Megan McLaughlin is BFF with Catherine Lorenze and Phyllis Payne, all co-founders of SLEEP. Megan wrote a defense of Payne on Patch and then deleted it the next day after the FCDC saw it. The FCDC is mighty pissed at Megan for working with Lorenze, who continues to manage her campaign. Megan also lost a lot of her Woodson base because of her whisper campaign against Nell Hurley. She knocks on doors and tells people who know better that she was responsible for all kinds of things. And how terrible everything is in the schools because of the evil school board. At our Halloween gathering last night we all had some great laughs at Megan's expense. Now excuse me while I go thank Megan for the sun rising today."

http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/675958/717659.html#msg-717659

Sometimes hard to tell whether the loonies are left-wing or right-wing.

Well, one thing is clear now. SLEEP is supported by the extremes on both ends of the political spectrum. More on the left than the right, but extremes nevertheless.

The observation in a post above about DST brings out the silliness of this whole issue. Personally, I think the SLEEP proponents are people who like to sleep in themselves.

Imitation Actual Agendas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do we really want to re-litigate this? Megan
> trounced her opponent to win a school board seat,
> despite her alliances.

Give it up, bozo! Linking to stupid asshat rambling on FFXU as a source is NOT "litigating". It is being an ignorant fucktard.

> Sometimes hard to tell whether the loonies are
> left-wing or right-wing.

Easy to tell who the worthless phonies are either way. You've been outed.

sleep observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, one thing is clear now. SLEEP is supported
> by the extremes on both ends of the political
> spectrum. More on the left than the right, but
> extremes nevertheless.

There is nothing clear about that at all. In fact, it's goober nonsense.

Actual Agendas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sleep observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well, one thing is clear now. SLEEP is
> supported
> > by the extremes on both ends of the political
> > spectrum. More on the left than the right, but
> > extremes nevertheless.
>
> There is nothing clear about that at all. In
> fact, it's goober nonsense.

I think I will SLEEP on it. Good night...ZZZZzzzzzzzz

The Fairfax County School Board has adopted the Fairfax County Public Schools (FCPS) FY 2015 Approved Budget of $2.5 billion, which includes a delayed salary step increase for all eligible employees and reductions of over $97 million and 720 positions. How come none of you tea bag morons mention this?

Cut cut cut. You are getting what YOU want. So parents dont want to have to wake their kids up at 5:30 am (2 hrs before sunrise in the winter) - that is totally reasonable. Why are you all whining like bitches about it. Tell you what, YOU wake up at 5:30, and I mean all of you. You can email the Super at that hour. Once she gets a few Hundred thousand emails with a 530 time stamp we will change the start times back to the wee hours.

But few if any of you will rise that early - you just want the kids to do that...

Wrong: People in my neighborhood are leaving their houses at 6 or 6:30. How do I know? I'm up at 5--and have been for years. Sure, my kids, who are out of school now, complained about getting up so early--but they did. They would have complained at whatever time. It was great training for college--and, get this---JOBS!

response to cut,cut, cut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wrong: People in my neighborhood are leaving their
> houses at 6 or 6:30. How do I know? I'm up at
> 5--and have been for years. Sure, my kids, who
> are out of school now, complained about getting up
> so early--but they did. They would have
> complained at whatever time. It was great
> training for college--and, get this---JOBS!


Yes because everyone in college wakes up at 5:30 am! Really? And you are just proving the point that the whiners are the flex timers wanting to beat the traffic, shove their kids out the door an hour before sunrise in the dead of winter so they can build character. Fine, give your kids hand warmers and let them sit at your front door till the sun comes up. No one says you have to be a GOOD parent.

Those of us with common sense will keep them warm and safe till getting up at the leisurely hour of 6:30 am.


Finally, if a 12 year old has to get up at 530am why are only getting up at 5am. After all you are a grown adult needing less sleep. Why are you sleeping in so late. Id say you are lazy if you are not up by 4am. Its your logic not mine...

Common sense?
Check yourself. I took good care of my kids--and that including seeing that they went to bed-and to sleep at an hour that ensured their health. It meant cutting the cord on electronics a half hour before bedtime and keeping the electronics out of the bedroom when they went to bed. You might try that.
As for rising, they got up at 6--plenty of time to catch bus at 6:40.

On late start days, my son -when he was driving--learned quickly that he had to allow more time to get to school on time. Why? More traffic. The main lesson he learned: showing up on time counts. Ironic, he has noticed at his job that lots of young people have trouble getting to work on time--some have trouble getting to work at all.

Think about your goal as a parent: Don't you want your child to grow up to be a productive, independent citizen?
For the record, the kids were also quite healthy. They got enough sleep. Of course, they would have liked to sleep later.

You want middle school students out at dark? Bad idea.

to EDTJP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Common sense?
> Check yourself. I took good care of my kids--and
> that including seeing that they went to bed-and to
> sleep at an hour that ensured their health. It
> meant cutting the cord on electronics a half hour
> before bedtime and keeping the electronics out of
> the bedroom when they went to bed. You might try
> that.
> As for rising, they got up at 6--plenty of time to
> catch bus at 6:40.
>
> On late start days, my son -when he was
> driving--learned quickly that he had to allow more
> time to get to school on time. Why? More traffic.
> The main lesson he learned: showing up on time
> counts. Ironic, he has noticed at his job that
> lots of young people have trouble getting to work
> on time--some have trouble getting to work at
> all.
>
> Think about your goal as a parent: Don't you want
> your child to grow up to be a productive,
> independent citizen?
> For the record, the kids were also quite healthy.
> They got enough sleep. Of course, they would have
> liked to sleep later.

my kids (top students) have never been late to school - never. I still dont want them waking up at 530 am. Why is it a kid that is always on time at school at 730 is better than a kid that is always on time at 830? Would my kids be better than yours if I had them wake up at 4:30? No.