What are the regulations for highways signs and distance? Lets say a no left turn sign, is it valid if the sign is 5 lanes across traffic? Shouldn't the sign be posted prior to making the turn and not 5 lanes away?






The sign is 5 lanes across traffic, pretty hard to see at that distance. Not to mention if its night time and or raining out.


Shouldn't it not be like the image below, at or before making the turn?

Is that Germantown Rd? Thats Fairfax City for ya! Take a look around, Fairfax City Cops are some of the worst, e.x http://forums.officer.com/t73461/

I cant see the sign on your first photo, dude.

It is hard to see from that angle, but you can get a feel of the distance. Also, it looks like its actually 6 lanes across if you count the turning lane.

Paging Robert N Wrote:
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> It is hard to see from that angle, but you can get
> a feel of the distance. Also, it looks like its
> actually 6 lanes across if you count the turning
> lane.


Take a good photo of the sign and show it to the CA and then the judge, if SA refuses to null-pros it. (I assume you got a ticket). If you get lucky, the judge will drop the charge.

Yeah I got a ticket, already took pictures, will also be looking around for a lawyer. Something minor like this will cost me about $100 - $300 for a lawyer I take it? If so, that's cheaper then insurance increases that would likely come along with the 3 points.

Dont let me tell you otherwise, but a lawyer for such a minor case is a waste of money. You'll spend $300 for $100 ticket. There is nothing the lawyer will tell the judge that you cant yourself. This isnt even a DUI.

As a lawyer, the previous poster is right. Besides, any lawyer that would go to court for 100-300 dollars would likely do you more harm than good.......

Paging Robert N Wrote:
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> If so, that's cheaper then
> insurance increases that would likely come along
> with the 3 points.

The only reason insurance would go up is if you already have lots of other points on your record.

Don't be an idiot. That sign is in plain view -- right in front of your eyes when you're sitting at the point of the turn. You knew left turns aren't allowed and you did it anyway and got caught. Suck it up buttercup.

@OP - listen to the X and the lawyer - it's STUPID to waste $$$$ on a lawyer and any good one will just tell you what to do and kick you out his/her office.

HOLD ON A MINUTE!!

so yeah, Gordon Blvd just spend 5 minutes looking at googlemaps trying to figure out WTF you've been talking about - and man I got it wrong and yeah, Kilton is DEAD ON RIGHT and judge should say guilty.

I thought you were talking about making a left i FROM Jermantown into the shopping center or the Wnedys and that's how you got a ticket but you got the ticket for turning left FROM the shopping center, didnt you.

And yeah, that's been illegal since they dual-lefted the turns from Jermantown to Westbound 50 over a decade or two ago. Dont know how you could have missed a left turn sign THAT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=38.855258,-77.332678&spn=0.006191,0.009645&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.855155,-77.332705&panoid=cOgTS_QPHymHFhndN2i6VA&cbp=12,93.34,,0,9.58
but the bottom line is that if you missed that sign, you would have ALSO maybe missed a pedestrian crossing the street as you made that illegal left. If you click that link you'll see the sign you missed. If you scroll over to the right, you'll see some woman standing near that sign. If that woman was walking to Wendy's for lunch that day, YOU MIGHT HAVE KILLED HER as you say you cant see across the street that far, and you feel you should be able to make left turns there safely. Just some thought for ya.

Wow - if that's really the only "No Left Turn" sign I'd say the OP has a real case.

I'm surprised there isn't a sign on the other side of the street right at the exit of the lot.

@Nota - click the link in my rant abouve - that's EXACTLY what you see on the other side of the street at the exit of the lot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 08:43AM by Gordon Blvd.

Lol! When I used Bing to check the view to see if I could see another sign on the parking lot side, what does it show?

http://binged.it/Y7dQSR

Lol! Common error, huh?

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
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> @Nota - click the link in my rant abouve - that's
> EXACTLY what you see on the other side of the
> street at the exit of the lot.

No, that's exactly what you do NOT see. If the only sign is on the other side of the street AND has the real potential of being hidden behind street traqffic, the guy has a real case.

It is beyond ridiculous to think that someone has to look at a street-level sign (NOT overhead) from across the street through traffic INCLUDING trucks that would totally hide the sign.

First of all, don't waste your money on a lawyer. Second, hope the Officer doen't show up. (Not likely, however with the flu going around you never know). Third, note the time of day of your ticket (even an hour can make a difference, i.e. bright sunshine at 3:30pm vs. approaching dusk at 4:30pm), weather conditions (sunny, cloudy, rain, etc.), and amount of traffic. Take another picture in your car from the driveway across Jermantown Road. Tell the judge that this was your first time at the shopping center and the sign was not immediately noticeable from your location accross six lanes of traffic, and that a large truck obscured the sign until after you made the turn. You noticed the sign at the same time the officer turned on his lights and pulled you over. By then it was too late.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

i wonder how many tickets are issued at that spot because the sign is in a place where most people would not look before making that turn. if you go to court unfortunately the judge will find you guilty unless he/she got laid the night before. then you'll have to pay the ticket plus court costs. an attorney might be able to get it dismissed but it'll cost you 300 to 500 and there is no guarantee. thanks for this thread- i've made that left turn many times-no more.

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @OP - listen to the X and the lawyer - it's
> STUPID to waste $$$$ on a lawyer and any
> good one will just tell you what to do and kick
> you out his/her office.
>
> HOLD ON A MINUTE!!
>
> so yeah, Gordon Blvd just spend 5 minutes looking
> at googlemaps trying to figure out WTF you've been
> talking about - and man I got it wrong and yeah,
> Kilton is DEAD ON RIGHT and judge should say
> guilty.
>
> I thought you were talking about making a left i
> FROM Jermantown into the shopping center or the
> Wnedys and that's how you got a ticket but you got
> the ticket for turning left FROM the shopping
> center, didnt you.
>
> And yeah, that's been illegal since they
> dual-lefted the turns from Jermantown to Westbound
> 50 over a decade or two ago. Dont know how you
> could have missed a left turn sign THAT IS RIGHT
> IN FRONT OF YOU
> http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=38.855258,-77
> .332678&spn=0.006191,0.009645&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbl
> l=38.855155,-77.332705&panoid=cOgTS_QPHymHFhndN2i6
> VA&cbp=12,93.34,,0,9.58
> but the bottom line is that if you missed that
> sign, you would have ALSO maybe missed a
> pedestrian crossing the street as you made that
> illegal left. If you click that link you'll see
> the sign you missed. If you scroll over to the
> right, you'll see some woman standing near that
> sign. If that woman was walking to Wendy's for
> lunch that day, YOU MIGHT HAVE KILLED HER as you
> say you cant see across the street that far, and
> you feel you should be able to make left turns
> there safely. Just some thought for ya.


This guy is right. If you're talking about taking a left OUT of the shopping center you're guilty op. Not even worth the effort to fight it.

The Virginia Code sez...:

======
No provision of this section relating to the prohibition of disobeying signs or violating local traffic signals, markings, and lights shall be enforced against an alleged violator if, at the time and place of the alleged violation, any such sign, signal, marking, or light is not in proper position and sufficiently legible to be seen by an ordinarily observant person.
======

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-830

I'd say a single street-level sign on the other side of N lanes of traffic is not sufficiently legible to be seen by an ordinarily observant person.

Frankly I'm thoroughly surprised there aren't "No Left Turn" signs on the parking lot side mounted on, say, the light post.

[I am not at all familiar with that area]

The angle from your photo implies you are talking about a left turn from the roadway - clearly that is legal as there is a left turn lane with a large arrow. Thus you are likely talking about the fact you took a left out of the parking lot on the right side of the picture.

In order to do this you would have to cross 4 lanes including one dotted line, two solid white lines and one solid yellow line. Seems like this should have tipped you off the turn may have been restricted. If there is no sign at the exit to the parking lot you might have a case. If there is one there you are screwed. In any event the picture you posted does NOT offer any evidence to suggest there was not proper signage at the exit.

Go back, check and take a photo from the perspective of exiting the parking lot.

picture Wrote:
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> Go back, check and take a photo from the
> perspective of exiting the parking lot.

If you look at the Bing link a few posts above, you'll see a car making the same mistake as the OP and you'll see the entire area from an overhead view. If there is NO signage on the parking lot side then I'd say the OP's charge absolutely should be dismissed (and VDOT/Fairfax ordered to improve the signage).

....................which is why you are "nota" lawyer LoLz

cause I say you should be able to see across the street before you ENTER YOUR F**KING MOTOR VEHICLE INTO IT.

I see the point now I looked at the photo and figured it out. I would have to say that sign is possibly too far away -there should be a sign at the exit itself not just a small sign 80 feet away.

@Olde farte - I totally missed yr post - and yeah, that's pretty funny.

shopping center needs to paint a right turn only deal on the pavement there. And I think they are responsible for the signage actually, Nota, not the City (and DEFINATELY not VDOT - they dont do town signage around here other than Clifton)

Olde Farte, II Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lol! When I used Bing to check the view to see if
> I could see another sign on the parking lot side,
> what does it show?
>
> http://binged.it/Y7dQSR
>
> Lol! Common error, huh?


lol, too funny!



dieing breed - I am sure quite a bit, he was right back at his spot after he was done issuing my ticket.

picture - Yeah, I took pictures of the parking lot prior to making the turn, no signs. The only sign is 6 lanes across, on the other side of Germantown Rd.


Johnny Law - The weather conditions should also help me out as it was night time, raining, and foggy out.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KDAA/2013/1/14/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

"Events Fog , Rain"


Thanks for all the replies, looks like I will just be going alone with some pictures/video.

Paging Robert N Wrote:
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> Johnny Law - The weather conditions should
> also help me out as it was night time, raining,
> and foggy out.

Hopefully when you tell the judge that you couldn't see a sign right in front of you because it was dark out, he'll take your license away due to lack of sufficient eyesight.

Good luck, stupid. :-)

I would say fight it, given it was foggy, and 6 lanes of traffic could have easily obstructed your view, you have a decent chance. Like others have said, do not waste your money on a lawyer, but if you really want one, FFXU as a whole would really suggest http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/1002687.html.

@Kilton - now now, settle down LoLz - hoss has his right to his day in court.
@nota - you definitely arent a lawyer if you are telling me a sitting judge will tell me that it's ok to not be able to see observe a sign that's only as far away from me as a traffic light would typically be.

True, but the sign probably was not illuminated, hard to tell from the OP's pics. A stop light is at least 12 - 15 feet high with light bulbs, a standard sign is typically around maybe 6 - 7 feet high~. You also have cars in between the turn point, and the sign, the average height of a car is about 4 - 6 feet, not counting commercial trucks. Present your case, pray the judge gets some action the night before, and you have a pretty decent case.

@nota - lol maybe so. not this judge, tho ;)

hey op - you've GOT to come back and tell us how yr case went

@O.P. so I'm at the Wendys off of Jermantown earlier and I remember this thread and decide to go out that way and DAMN if you dont see the sign AS SOON AS YOU TURN ONTO THE LANE TO HEAD OUT OF THE SHOPPING CENTER!!

I mean I saw it as SOON as I turned to face it, and I hadnt even started to go down the lane yet, I was still in the back park of the lot.

So no, O.P. having gone thru the EXACT same experience you did, I have no idea on Earth how you could have missed that sign that is sitting right in front of you when you get to the intersection - you SERIOUSLY cant miss it.

C'mon Gordon. It was dark out. How do you expect the OP to see a sign in the dark? It's not like road signs are ultra-reflective so that headlights illuminate them. :-)

I got a ticket for the same left turn there yesterday (3/2/13) in the snow. I've made that turn many times & never saw the sign 80 ft away. When I'm waiting to make the turn, I look left and right but not across the street.

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/

Wickler Wrote:
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> I got a ticket for the same left turn there
> yesterday

Teehee.

FWIW, I doubt there's a "regulation". It's more likely a "standard of the reasonable man" scenario.

Assuming that anybody on this forum is reasonable (a stretch, I realize) and a man (also not clear), some of them think you're toast.

If you're not on the edge of losing your license already, I wouldn't bother. If you are, and you can afford the $$$ but not the inability to drive, then go for it -- it's just time and money (yours). You might get lucky.

Prepare, be polite, be humble. Pray the cop doesn't show.

ObAnecdote: Your humble poster was hit many years ago, had to go to court, as the lady who hit him was charged and fought it. She lost, but the fun part was the lady before, who was fighting a ticket for having passed a school bus with its red flashing lights on. Her defense? "I didn't see the bus".

Surprise, the judge wasn't impressed...I think her defense actually got her a longer suspension than she would have had without it, in fact!

I'm hoping Paging Robert N (the originator of this thread) will tell us how he fared in court.

Wickler Wrote:
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> I got a ticket for the same left turn there
> yesterday (3/2/13) in the snow. I've made that
> turn many times & never saw the sign 80 ft away.
> When I'm waiting to make the turn, I look left and
> right but not across the street.


what sort of COMPLTE DUMB ASS moves their vehicle foward without looking DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THEM FIRST? o_0

I work nearby there; it's a favorite place for the Fairfax Police to hang out making lots of $ from countless folks who apparently are all "COMPLTE" DUMB ASSES. The shopping center really needs to put up a right turn only sign on the parking lot side of the exit lane; Wendy's next door has one.

I may not be able to speel (LoLz) but I do know that anybody who cant see DIRECTLY RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM should not be driving a motor vehicle.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&q=jermantown+road&ie=UTF-8&ei=HVA5UeuNDozvqQGR44HIDA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg

p.s. Just cause Wendy's next door has one doesnt meant EVERYBODY'S gotta have one. If Wendy next door jumped off a bridge you are telling me you are going to also? LoLz

the reason I'm all up about this - I know exactly where this is - and I can tell you 100 % that you are a "COMPLTE" F*CKING MORON IF YOU DO NOT SEE THIS SIGN! As SOON as you turn onto the drive to head out of the shopping center, AS SOON AS YOU TURN ONTO IT, you are facing AND CAN SEE this no left turn sign.

I mean, I'm a f8cking idiot and I saw it - all the way from the f8cking Burlington Coat Factory. So if I can manage to do it, I'm sure everybody else can.

Oh wow! Did not know that turn was illegal, I turn left all the time leaving the xsport. There is not much reason to look straight ahead, just right, and left at that turn. They should really put a sign prior to making that turn, I guess I have been lucky.

Sshhh Xsport goer! You're inviting Gordon Blvd to tell you what a F__king moron you are.

@Old - well, they did RSVP :)

@xsport - yeller is right ;) They put these pretty HUGE windows in the front of yr car ppl kinda assume yr gonna use em LoLz

serious question for ya, xsport. You telling me that as you come around,the Burlington and you make that left onto the drive out of the shopping center, you dont look straight ahead when driving down that lane? I'm not clowing you, I am DEAD SERIOUS asking you that question.

Reason I am asking that is because as I stated before, I am a FUCKING MORON. And last time I did that same drive, as SOON AS I TURNED ONTO THAT LANE, I saw that no left turn sign at the end of the street on the other side of Jermantown Rd. I saw it cause as SOON AS I TURNED ONTO THAT LANE, it was DEAD IN FRONT OF ME

ANd I saw it cause I was trying to drive down that lane, there are other parking space aisle on the side that other drivers could come out of, and I was moving my car forward, so I was looking ahead as I was moving my car foward to get out of the shopping center. - Took maybe about 5-10 second of forward driving to get from one end of the lane to the other. That entire time, I was looking forward as my car was moving forward, down this lane, from the rear of the shopping center toward Jermantown Road.

Took about 5-10 seconds for me, a complete moron to drive my car forward, down this lane, from Burlington Coat to Jermantown Rd. This ENTIRE TIME, I can see this No Left Turn Sign in front of me as I am driving down this lane towards the end of it and it's intersection with Jermantown.

I'm a moron. So if I can see it about 5-10 second BEFORE I get to the intersection, I'm a little stumped as to how all these other ppl can miss it

any help on this?

When is the court date? I was hoping this was resolved already so I could hear the outcome.

Gordon Blvd Wrote:

> I'm a moron. So if I can see it about 5-10 second
> BEFORE I get to the intersection, I'm a little
> stumped as to how all these other ppl can miss it

Most people don't look more than 10-15 feet ahead of their cars. This manifests in several ways, among them the phenomenon I call "The Red Sea", where they enter a highway and drive blindly (typically without accelerating) to the end of the merging lane, expecting traffic to part for them. When they do this and I lean on the horn, wait until they finally look up, and then swerve TOWARD them, they're quite surprised. I have yet to put one into the median, but I have hopes. Just doing my part for natural selection.

when? Wrote:
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> When is the court date? I was hoping this was
> resolved already so I could hear the outcome.
Attachments:

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/

Interesting update to this thread. I'm not the original poster, but I did get a ticket for the same errant left turn couple months ago. I chose not to contest it & paid the fine (chickened out), although I believe the sign is not sufficiently conspicuous. (I know Gordon, I'm a moron.) Anyway, I just received a letter from the Fairfax City prosecutor stating that they are dismissing my case because the ticketing officer was fired for "untruthfulness" in an unrelated matter. So, they apparently are dismissing all the tickets he gave out.

Paging Robert N Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What are the regulations for highways signs and
> distance? Lets say a no left turn sign, is it
> valid if the sign is 5 lanes across traffic?
> Shouldn't the sign be posted prior to making the
> turn and not 5 lanes away?