Can anyone shed some light on why it is that Fairfax County Public Schools only offer gifted and talented programs at certain schools?

As I understand it, elementary level GT - which is called AAP - is offered at Level III at many schools - maybe all? And Level IV (the highest) is only offered at some schools.

So I think you get GT everywhere, just not the highest level.

Kent Gardens just became a Level IV school - I think - after not being one.

Its not easy offering more services, right? more expensive to do it at every school?

I believe AAP level IV is offered in almost all schools. There are Level IV centers but they are not the only place to get Level IV instruction. We were able to stay in our neighborhood school rather than the center (which was uncomfortably overcrowded).
By the way, the term GT is replaced by the term Advanced Academic Program, AAP. I think it's a great change to describe/label the curriculum rather than the child. Plus, every single child is gifted and talented in something, even if it's not the one and only 2ND grade aptitude test.

There typically aren't enough kids at each school to warrant the highest level at every school, so when my kids were doing it they clustered them at certain schools and provided bus transportation to get them there. More cost-effective. When you get up in the higher IQ ranges it is extremely difficult to accommodate them. They are four or five years ahead of a standard classroom, and the next step isn't enough. We did Gifted with two different school districts and it was handled similarly. It was a Godsend.

And I don't take any crap off of anybody over my kids needing these programs, so don't go there. This was an educational necessity for both, they had a right to be appropriately educated in a safe, supportive environment. This was not a parental ego situation. This was Special Ed, just a different kind.

I strongly recommend individual testing for any gifted child. It helps tremendously with appropriate placement.

Link might answer OP question:

http://www.fcag.org/gtfcps.html

Aside: our family chose to stay with local Level IV as opposed to the center, but each school and child is different. Everyone's choice is highly individualized...keep the kids best interest first.

parent 987654 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe AAP level IV is offered in almost all
> schools. There are Level IV centers but they are
> not the only place to get Level IV instruction.
> We were able to stay in our neighborhood school
> rather than the center (which was uncomfortably
> overcrowded).
> By the way, the term GT is replaced by the term
> Advanced Academic Program, AAP. I think it's a
> great change to describe/label the curriculum
> rather than the child. Plus, every single child
> is gifted and talented in something, even if it's
> not the one and only 2ND grade aptitude test.

+1 you got that right

The G/T AAP program is crap. An entitlement program for those that do not need it. All kinds of money goes to this program which should be allocated elsewhere.

Makes for variable school district boundaries and really taxes the schools, transportation and the kids.

Kids are not "Gifted" in all subject material. If they are so smart they are 4-5 years ahead of the class material, they need to either be put up a grade or 2 or they need to just go to the appropriate math/science or other class in the school.

There is no way kids are "really" 4-5 years ahead, this is crap, but believe what you want. A 7 year old 2nd grader should be doing 13 year old/7th grade work do not think so, but suit yourself!!

Total Waste Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The G/T AAP program is crap. An entitlement
> program for those that do not need it. All kinds
> of money goes to this program which should be
> allocated elsewhere.
>

This just goes to show that you are an idiot. I personally am tired of seeing the money we spend on kids who are going to do nothing but live in a wheelchair for the rest of their lives. They can't talk. They can't do anything. They never will. I feel sorry for their situation, but why would you not want to make arrangements to educate the kids who are going to find the cure for cancer, etc.? They have a right to an appropriate education under state law.

> Makes for variable school district boundaries and
> really taxes the schools, transportation and the
> kids.
>
> Kids are not "Gifted" in all subject material. If
> they are so smart they are 4-5 years ahead of the
> class material, they need to either be put up a
> grade or 2 or they need to just go to the
> appropriate math/science or other class in the
> school.

I had a child who was profoundly gifted in all areas. This was verified with a child psychologist. Moving a child in with kids who are two years older creates a lot of problems. The bus situation was not a big deal.
>
> There is no way kids are "really" 4-5 years ahead,
> this is crap, but believe what you want. A 7 year
> old 2nd grader should be doing 13 year old/7th
> grade work do not think so, but suit yourself!!

You don't necessarily have to have them working four years up, although sometimes you do. Usually a year or two ahead will suffice for most. Some need more. You obviously have never been in this situation.

causeican Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> parent 987654 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I believe AAP level IV is offered in almost all
> > schools. There are Level IV centers but they
> are
> > not the only place to get Level IV instruction.
>
> > We were able to stay in our neighborhood school
> > rather than the center (which was uncomfortably
> > overcrowded).
> > By the way, the term GT is replaced by the term
> > Advanced Academic Program, AAP. I think it's a
> > great change to describe/label the curriculum
> > rather than the child. Plus, every single
> child
> > is gifted and talented in something, even if
> it's
> > not the one and only 2ND grade aptitude test.
>
> +1 you got that right


This is a trite saying. Just because your child is gifted in basketball or art doesn't mean they can be groomed to take AP Chemistry in 10th grade.

You missed my point. I don't like calling my kid "gifted and talented". The reason is that smart kids are not the only gifted and talented people in the world. He belongs in AAP, yes. But labeling kids GT isn't helpful to anyone. My other child does not belong in AAP but she is gifted musically. I was simply saying I agree with the change in terminology. All smart kiddos may be gifted but not all gifts and talents are defined by intelligence as measured in the 2ND grade. I don't agree with people labeling one of my children gifted and talented, when the one not carrying that (thankfully outdated) label, while not a super smart kid, has more talent (musical) than anyone in our family. Not saying I think a musical or athletic talent should be in AAP. Not at all what I meant.
The arrogance of "GT" parents is actually what I find trite.

!!! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Total Waste Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The G/T AAP program is crap. An entitlement
> > program for those that do not need it. All
> kinds
> > of money goes to this program which should be
> > allocated elsewhere.
> >
>
> This just goes to show that you are an idiot. I
> personally am tired of seeing the money we spend
> on kids who are going to do nothing but live in a
> wheelchair for the rest of their lives. They can't
> talk. They can't do anything. They never will. I
> feel sorry for their situation, but why would you
> not want to make arrangements to educate the kids
> who are going to find the cure for cancer, etc.?
> They have a right to an appropriate education
> under state law.
>
> > Makes for variable school district boundaries
> and
> > really taxes the schools, transportation and
> the
> > kids.
> >
> > Kids are not "Gifted" in all subject material.
> If
> > they are so smart they are 4-5 years ahead of
> the
> > class material, they need to either be put up a
> > grade or 2 or they need to just go to the
> > appropriate math/science or other class in the
> > school.
>
> I had a child who was profoundly gifted in all
> areas. This was verified with a child
> psychologist. Moving a child in with kids who are
> two years older creates a lot of problems. The bus
> situation was not a big deal.
> >
> > There is no way kids are "really" 4-5 years
> ahead,
> > this is crap, but believe what you want. A 7
> year
> > old 2nd grader should be doing 13 year old/7th
> > grade work do not think so, but suit yourself!!
>
> You don't necessarily have to have them working
> four years up, although sometimes you do. Usually
> a year or two ahead will suffice for most. Some
> need more. You obviously have never been in this
> situation.

I am an idiot, you are a genius. You are such a scumbag, thinking money will only to the totally disabled kids and they will never amount to anything, what a total elitist. There are plenty of middle of the road kids that could use slightly smaller classes or support, this is really the bulk of the student population that get screwed because of all the elitist programs.

Cracks me up even thinking the AAP classes are 4-5 years ahead, they aren't. So funny how these kids had to do busy work making projects like a Western Wagon out of an oatmeal container. I know so many parents that did all the projects for their kids because they felt the kids should be studying for their next test.

G/T stands for "Gotta Talk", these social misfits are mostly blurters, they have no self control, they might do great on Jeopardy, drop them at the top of the street and they probably could not find their way home.

My kid was eligible for this mess and I said NO WAY was I going to subject my kid to this dysfunction.

SO funny when my kid was in 5th grade math the class was using the same math book as the G/T aka AAP class, but by the beginning of the 2nd quarter the "dumb" class was 2 chapters ahead of the G/T aka AAP class. And standard 5th grade math class outpaced the G/T aka AAP class the entire year.

My kid was eligible to take Algebra 1 Honors in 7th grade and I just was not going to do this as there is no need for it. My kid was an Athletic Scholar all though High School.

So tired of all this crap, in my school there were more G/T aka AAP classes than there were GE classes. There is NO way there is 15-60% of the student body are G/T aka AAP students. There is statistically maybe 2% of the student body that might be considered G/T aka AAP. Not sure what everyone is really thinking.

Believe what you want to, I have seen all the parents that get their kids independently tested and get all the documentation to get their kids into the G/T aka AAP programs and they implode. I know one that left after middle school, went to a private school and had to repeat their Junior year. How did this work out for the kid??

My kid is a Freshman in College at 17 while this other kid will be a 19 year old Freshman in College. My kid is far more mature than kids 2 years older and can run circles around most of the older kids in real life.

Take your little Einstein and go solve some real world problems! Your kid was not working even 2+ years ahead, it just does not happen even in the G/T aka AAP program. You might want to believe this, but you are only fooling yourself and your kid.

Hope it all works out for the you and your kids in the long run.

I teach at a school with a Level IV Center.
Very few students in the program are truly gifted. Most, are average. Quite a few have been coached to get the necessary scores to get into the program. The only thing about them that isn't average is their inflated egos and sense of entitlement.

I coach a team full of 2nd graders, and one of them was jabbering on about how she might be going to a new school - that I happen to know is a level IV school. And that she was trying to get a certain percent on a test. This was her normal conversation during her practice time.

She's a pretty cool kid. There's no need for her to know or care about what those 2nd grade tests are for, but its clearly a big deal in her household. I hope her parents let her enjoy some of her childhood.

Oh yea, the AAP student caught cheating in 5th grade.

Turned out the parents bought the student the teacher handbook for the class!

How gift are these parents and this kid?

Only in Fairfax Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I teach at a school with a Level IV Center.
> Very few students in the program are truly gifted.
> Most, are average. Quite a few have been coached
> to get the necessary scores to get into the
> program. The only thing about them that isn't
> average is their inflated egos and sense of
> entitlement.

It used to be that Level IV was only offered at Level IV Center Schools while Level III was offered at most if not all schools. If that has changed, it has been fairly recent. Officially the reason for this is there are a limited number of students who qualify for the program, so it makes sense to concentrate them. That is more of a justification though. They have no problem making Level III instructors travel between schools and pulling Level III kids out of regular classes to attend GT sessions.

In certain parts of the County the push is for more Level IV centers so that more kids can get into the program. In other parts of the County the push is to keep the centers separate as the parents are trying to get their kids out of the neighborhood schools.

As to who is getting in, some are actually gifted and can perform at levels far above other students. A far larger portion though are simply above average kids who (or more accurately whose parents) are looking for a leg up. Then there are some you wonder how they got there. Maybe they just do well on standardized tests. Still it is probably worth doing if your kid qualifies.

It is truly disturbing that the academic trajectory of our kids is determined by a single test in 2nd grade. Thankfully, kids at that age don't recognize the pressure that their parents - not them - feel under.

To the arrogant POS parent above who views special needs kids as equivalent to vegetables...you dodged a bullet. There is a wide spectrum of kids with special needs. I have absolutely no doubt that if you had a special needs chid you would be first in line demanding more services. You apparently had a child psychologist verify that your kid was 'profoundly gifted'. Why did you feel compelled to do that? Your insecurities - not his (or hers). Think of the pressure you are putting on your child.

We are putting way too much stress and too many expectations on our kids - largely to satisfy our own needs. Let kids be kids and let them find their own way instead of imposing your expectations on them.

A Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is truly disturbing that the academic
> trajectory of our kids is determined by a single
> test in 2nd grade. Thankfully, kids at that age
> don't recognize the pressure that their parents -
> not them - feel under.
>
> To the arrogant POS parent above who views special
> needs kids as equivalent to vegetables...you
> dodged a bullet. There is a wide spectrum of kids
> with special needs. I have absolutely no doubt
> that if you had a special needs chid you would be
> first in line demanding more services. You
> apparently had a child psychologist verify that
> your kid was 'profoundly gifted'. Why did you feel
> compelled to do that? Your insecurities - not his
> (or hers). Think of the pressure you are putting
> on your child.
>

I DID have a special needs child and I had to listen to people tell me that they didn't rate appropriate education for their level of development. So how you like hearing it about kids at the other end of the spectrum? That is how I felt for many, many years. I think the educational dollars spent on someone who could not be accommodated in a standard classrooom were very well spent and I am not an elitist type at all. I think the people who have kids at the other end are the elitist because they don't think my kid deserves to be educated properly. They think their kid is more important than mine? Who do they think they are?

I also had a child who did elementary in the standard classrooms, then broke out in middle and high school. Thank God for AP. They would have otherwise had to graduate at 16 and go to college to get a developmentally appropriate program.

We never pressured our kids. This was they way they were created. I had to hold them back sometimes and encourage them to smell the roses along the way. We who have children like this face situations where we get no sympathy, no help, and we have to listen to people say our children are not entitled to be appropriately educated, when we see all kinds of accommodations made for others.

And no, I was not insecure. My child was in physical danger in a standard classroom because the other kids could not deal with a fellow student who was three years ahead of them. I obtained testing as we were moving a lot and I needed data to help with placement. Individual testing gives you that. A lot of the highly gifted do not show up on group tests.

My kids WERE finding their own way. They needed gifted programs desperately to do it. They WERE kids first. To deny them an appropriate education is child neglect/abuse.

> We are putting way too much stress and too many
> expectations on our kids - largely to satisfy our
> own needs. Let kids be kids and let them find
> their own way instead of imposing your
> expectations on them.

The teacher is right - only a small portion of the students now admitted to the AAP/GT Centers need full-time instruction that is one or more grade levels above the norm for their age. An experienced GT Center teacher who taught since the 1990s would have a lot more to say about how things have changed since then.

There is still a small percentage of students who are years ahead of their classmates academically. Socially, however, most would do best in a classroom with other students their own age who also are their academic peers. Unfortunately, those students no longer are well-served by FCPS. As some parents have commented, today's AAP Center classes are only slightly more advanced than general education classes.

"A Parent," FCPS students have long been admitted to the GT/AAP Center program based on at least two standardized tests, plus the school's recommendation and more. If a student is not admitted based on all those criteria, their parents can appeal that decision. Any parent can refer their child in grades 2 through 7 to be considered for admissions the next year, too.

parent 987654 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe AAP level IV is offered in almost all
> schools. There are Level IV centers but they are
> not the only place to get Level IV instruction.
> We were able to stay in our neighborhood school
> rather than the center (which was uncomfortably
> overcrowded).
> By the way, the term GT is replaced by the term
> Advanced Academic Program, AAP. I think it's a
> great change to describe/label the curriculum
> rather than the child. Plus, every single child
> is gifted and talented in something, even if it's
> not the one and only 2ND grade aptitude test.

"I believe AAP level IV is offered in almost all
> schools." This is false.

Level IV AAP is a dedicated class with advanced material - the entire class is made up of students that scored in the highest level of 2 standardized tests and gained recommendations from teachers. Level IV is NOT available in most schools. Level I-III IS available at most if not all schools. Level III consists of supplemental material introduced to individual students attending mainstream classes. An AAP level III student might, for example, get pulled for one instructional hour per week from mainstream class to a special advanced session. A level III AAP student would NOT be in a classroom filled with other AAP students. The material in the mainstream class would not be changed for the Level III students.

Level IV centers are schools with classes devoted to teaching an entire class advanced material at an advanced pace. All the students in a level IV class have qualified for the highest level of AAP. There are schools with Level IV services that may not be considered 'centers' - they simply are large enough to fill at least one Level IV class with students to whom that is their home school.

As to small portion of the students now admitted to the AAP/GT Centers need full-time instruction that is one or more grade levels above the norm for their age - that is not true in my experience. Both my kids are in level IV AAP and both languished in mainstream classes prior to 3rd grade. Most if not all of the kids in their Level IV classes are a grade ahead, love to learn and learn fast. They do not belong in a mainstream class simply because they have nothing to do there. They learn the material at a much greater rate - they have to read books for most of the period while the rest of the class tackles the material. Reading books is fine but its not an enriching and directed curriculum.

Finally are there kids that have been pushed into AAP by parents where they were only marginally qualified - yes. Still smart kids that tested high just not high enough (say 90th percentile as opposed to 98th percentile). They struggle but their families are usually pushing them so hard that they do fine. Not sure its best for them but they do have to keep up.

^^^^Yes.

My child had a fried who was pushed and they crashed and burned in high school, dropped out, and got a GED.
The truly gifted do not belong in a mainstream class. To expect a teacher to design a curriculum just for them is doing a disservice to a teacher. It is actually more cost-effective and efficient to group these kids together in separate classrooms. One hour a week per subject doesn't cut it.

probably in other places too Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I coach a team full of 2nd graders, and one of
> them was jabbering on about how she might be going
> to a new school - that I happen to know is a level
> IV school. And that she was trying to get a
> certain percent on a test. This was her normal
> conversation during her practice time.
>
> She's a pretty cool kid. There's no need for her
> to know or care about what those 2nd grade tests
> are for, but its clearly a big deal in her
> household. I hope her parents let her enjoy some
> of her childhood.

I agree completely. Our kids are in Level IV and we had absolutely not idea what AAP level iv was until we got a letter in the mail (it was in the junk pile and almost got tossed). My first tested in the 99% on both tests. I was horrified when the counselor told me I had to submit an application because there was so much pressure from parents pushing kids with much lower scores. Basically she let me know that for every 99th percentile scoring student there were 10 89% scoring students/parents pushing to get in. I had to demonstrate our 2nd grade child scoring in the top 1% should be accepted over another 2nd grade child scoring in the top 11%. It seems a little twisted that parents push little kids like this but I suppose their hearts are in the right place...

In the olden days Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
They are four or
> five years ahead of a standard classroom, and the
> next step isn't enough. We did Gifted with two
> different school districts and it was handled
> similarly. It was a Godsend.
>
> I strongly recommend individual testing for any
> gifted child. It helps tremendously with
> appropriate placement.

Godsend for us to but no, kids are NOT 4-5 years ahead. We've been in AAP Level IV for 5 years and I have been involved in and know the classroom(s). In 5 years I have seen only 2 kids that were truly 2-3 years ahead in some subjects. One 6th grade AAP student was going to Frost to take Algebra (7th/8th grade course). The other student was most likely what people would call a genius - perfect advanced math scores on specialized challenge tests for 6th grade (only done once before in the past 10 years) There are no 3rd or 4th graders I have ever known of taking Algebra. Our kids are smart but give me a break already...

By the way I do think all mainstream kids have as much potential as these AAP kids its just that they are developing as students later.

The AAP program is more about the parents and the schools then the kids.

The program really leaves the "normal" kids in a bad place. Class sizes and other things impact the normal population like mainstreaming kids with problems that are disruptive to classes of the normal population.

The school system would be far better off not mainstreaming the disruptive kids and have specialized classes and instruction to help special needs kids and allow the bulk of the normal population to stay focused and on track.

If kids are so brilliant, just have them move to the upper grade math, science or the other class at the same time block.

I have seen Elementary kids coming to High School Math classes, worked out well for the Elementary kid as they took a first block High School Math class then would make it to their Elementary school for their normal schedule. Not sure the kid should have really been doing this, but someone thought is was a good idea.

Might not work so well with the later High School start times? Maybe kids should just be kids as they are only young once and when they hit college or the real world, they are not longer "gifted"! Just one of the additional schmucks in the work force or ones that cannot solve simple every day issues in their lives.

It is sad to see some of that lobbying to get in to level IV. I have one child in Level IV and one that is "average". Guess what? They are both learning and thriving and making friends. If a kid doesn't qualify, they will survive. ...and as long as the parents don't freak out and pursue it aggressively, then the kid won't feel bad about themselves.
It's worth noting that there are many pros AND cons to the level IV program and centers. Many parents only focus on the pros because it makes them feel better about themselves to have a "gifted" child. Our choice for a center wase overcrowded, unwelcoming, filthy....but parents flocked there from cleaner, less crowded schools with excellent level iv classes/teachers, because of the esteem of going to a center. Not us. Luckily we had a local level IV option.
advice to OP:do your own research at your local school and assigned center...then go with your gut weighing both the pros and cons.

tWpEF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> probably in other places too Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I coach a team full of 2nd graders, and one of
> > them was jabbering on about how she might be
> going
> > to a new school - that I happen to know is a
> level
> > IV school. And that she was trying to get a
> > certain percent on a test. This was her normal
> > conversation during her practice time.
> >
> > She's a pretty cool kid. There's no need for
> her
> > to know or care about what those 2nd grade
> tests
> > are for, but its clearly a big deal in her
> > household. I hope her parents let her enjoy
> some
> > of her childhood.



---------Children enjoy their childhood more when they are placed in an appropriate academic setting. I agree some parents do AAP for themselves. That was not the case with us. We were just desperate parents figuring how how to provide for children who simply could not fit into a regular classroom. Gifted programs were wonderful. School systems are required by state law to provide services for the Gifted. Exactly what those are depends on the individual school system.


>
> I agree completely. Our kids are in Level IV and
> we had absolutely not idea what AAP level iv was
> until we got a letter in the mail (it was in the
> junk pile and almost got tossed). My first tested
> in the 99% on both tests. I was horrified when
> the counselor told me I had to submit an
> application because there was so much pressure
> from parents pushing kids with much lower scores.
> Basically she let me know that for every 99th
> percentile scoring student there were 10 89%
> scoring students/parents pushing to get in. I had
> to demonstrate our 2nd grade child scoring in the
> top 1% should be accepted over another 2nd grade
> child scoring in the top 11%. It seems a little
> twisted that parents push little kids like this
> but I suppose their hearts are in the right
> place...

If these supposedly gifted students are receiving advanced academic curriculum, why is it that they can't pass the advanced math tests that are created by the county and why are some of them reading two years below the grade level benchmark. Teachers are dumbing down the tests and giving them grade level assessments so that they can pass. Nothing advanced about that is there?

>
> My kids WERE finding their own way. They needed
> gifted programs desperately to do it. They WERE
> kids first. To deny them an appropriate education
> is child neglect/abuse.
>


See, I don't believe that the gifted programs are all that necessary. If you take a really smart kid and leave them in general ed, what's going to happen to them? They'll learn all the material faster - and then maybe they'll be bored. And they learn that they are smart, and they'll also learn what they have to do to succeed in a world full of people who are not as smart.

If, instead, you take the really smart kid and put them in a special class full of smart kids that goes faster - I think they are less often bored, and they learn how to succeed with smarter people (which, sadly, is not the real world - FFXU is a good example of this :). But i also think they start spending more and more of their time worrying about how they stack up against everyone else - competition ratchets up early on.

I wonder how many of those recent suicides were AAP kids?

Anyway - no matter if they are in AAP Level IV center or not, eventually they get to college and work through the same material as others who want the same degree. Do we think being in a gifted program at ages 8-15 has much of a bearing on performance in college coursework? I don't.

I think any parent who thinks their kids really need gifted programs should be really clear about WHY they think so. I just don't see how they help much.

They may also learn that some of those they consider dumber than them are actually better than them at some things.

The problem with putting a TRULY gifted child in a standard classroom is that many of them already know the material or grasp the concepts about five times as fast as an average student. So, there is nothing for them to do but sit there until everybody else figures it out. For years.

I don't think it is appropriate to torture them by having them do nothing for hours or years on end in order to placate people who think it is more important that their child impose their educational situation on my child.

As far as social skills, they get plenty of interaction with other children in the gifted program. I found them to be more accepting of children with extreme talents. There is still a huge amount of diversity in their intellectual capacities. They are often completely alienated in a classroom full of children who don't understand how a kid with an IQ of 150 can learn the way they do and why they are the way they are. I had two children with IQ in the 140-150 range and they were very, very different from each other as well as from kids in standard classrooms. They both progressed at very different rates. They both came home in tears sometimes from general classrooms because of the way they were treated for just knowing the answers. What is everybody learning about getting along and accepting each other in a situation like that?

Being in a gifted program from 8-15 allows these children to progress at a pace more in tune with their development. It takes the problem of providing for them off the shoulders of a teacher who is trying to just get the grade level material into a lot of the kids. They were better prepared for college level work in high school and college. And they both took a lot of AP because there simply was nothing left in the general curriculum that met their level of development. They both moved on to double major in college.

I agree that there are many people who move through the general classrooms who do very well in life due to hard work and drive. I have a cousin who did not do well in school, yet went on to found a large company and is a multi-millionaire. I have also seen kids who went through the gifted program and things did not turn out quite like people thought they would.

These kids already know what they need to do to succeed. Let them do it. If you don't provide for a proper education for them, that is also stressful, along with the social isolation that comes from simply not fitting in.

For all those who think gifted education is a waste of money and everybody should be in the same classroom, why don't you put your child in a classroom full of special Ed students with IQ ranging from 60-80? They can learn so much there. It would be so helpful for the special Ed kids. Let them be kids first. Let them find their way. Don't push them. They might commit suicide. Let you listen to people telling you that appropriately educating your child is a waste of money. Why don't you then listen to people telling you that you are elitist because you want a developmentally appropriate program for your child. See how you like it.

> do and why they are the way they are. I had two
> children with IQ in the 140-150 range and they
> were very, very different from each other as well
> as from kids in standard classrooms. They both
> progressed at very different rates. They both came
> home in tears sometimes from general classrooms
> because of the way they were treated for just
> knowing the answers. What is everybody learning
> about getting along and accepting each other in a
> situation like that?

Here's the only part of your post that contained useful information. The rest was just your opinion, which I disagree with - smart kids will be well-prepared for AP and college even if they are in general ed.

Your kids were bullied because they were smarter. OK, that's really, really wrong, and that needs to be fixed.

One way to fix it is to pull the kids out and put them in another environment where its OK to be smart. Then those kids won't be bullied anymore, but nobody learns anything.

Another way to fix it is to teach kids that bullying is wrong, for any reason. Part of that is teaching kids how to deal with bullying. Your kids didn't get to learn that lesson.

Its our job as parents and teachers to make the classroom a good learning environment for everyone. Because when they're grown-up, we're all SUPPOSED to be able to work together - again, FFXU is a good example of how that doesn't always happen.

Only in Fairfax Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I teach at a school with a Level IV Center.
> Very few students in the program are truly gifted.
> Most, are average. Quite a few have been coached
> to get the necessary scores to get into the
> program. The only thing about them that isn't
> average is their inflated egos and sense of
> entitlement.

Below-average LIAR.

because the truly gifted are about 3 % of the population and most of them have a deficiency usually social that is best served in another environment then the base status symbol . FCPS lets in about 10 to 15 % it is ridiculous how many parents see it as a status us symbol.the truly gifted are under the special ed category. The gifted teachers have a different certification it would serve no purpose to have it in each school they already have to water it down to justify the cost of justify the cost and filling at class at certain centers. It is a really stupid thing for a parent to even waste their time worrying about. If your child is really smart and has motivation he/she will be fine. Gifted children are never bored.

Hey Bill, Good point, nothing like the feeling of a red kickball slammed into your egghead thrown by a C grade classmate, just ask Gerry.

"The problem with putting a TRULY gifted child in a standard classroom is that many of them already know the material or grasp the concepts about five times as fast as an average student. So, there is nothing for them to do but sit there until everybody else figures it out. For years."


I was this kid in a small district that did not have GT. They let me read a lot of whatever I wanted when I finished my work (quickly). The librarian helped me pick books and she discussed them with me. In some ways this led me to pursue a lot of my own interests (as opposed to something that would have been structured by a GT teacher). I honestly don't feel like I was left behind as I went on to college and graduate work and am a happy person. Many of the people and families where I lived are still fondly in my memories, not because they were "smart" in a school sense, but for the special talents that they did have and for the community we had (which I don't have here). We cared about each other in a much more sincere way than what I find here. We dare not forget that life is about heart as well as mind. And, yes, people on FFU attack people in superficial and unfeeling ways and maybe that says something about the community we live in (or how we have raised our children or what direction our culture has gone). I would not give up my childhood for the one I see kids having now.

Total Waste Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The G/T AAP program is crap. An entitlement
> program for those that do not need it. All kinds
> of money goes to this program which should be
> allocated elsewhere.

And you're an asshole. Look around and see if there isn't an Advanced Asshole Remediation Program available somewhere. You may need to take it twice.

The commitment of the law meanwhile is to provide an appropriate and meaningful education to all children. That means each of them individually. We tailor programs for every student, including those with special abilities and those with special disabilities. That's what ALL means! Grow up a little, maybe?

All those laws are nice, but at the end of the day, we, as individuals, are pretty much in charge of our own minds and educations. If the government gets any more involved than it already is, we will all be asking for those charter schools or home schooling.

I'm sure the above post was by someone who takes themselves way too seriously at Gatehouse. They "tailor" lots of things. It can sometimes seem like a bad dystopian novel.

True The Vote ! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Bill, Good point, nothing like the feeling of
> a red kickball slammed into your egghead thrown by
> a C grade classmate, just ask Gerry.

Yup. it's the dumbest fucking poster on the internets. What a dork. Exactly the damaged sort that you'd expect to see reeking anti-intellectualism from.

Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Total Waste Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The G/T AAP program is crap. An entitlement
> > program for those that do not need it. All
> kinds
> > of money goes to this program which should be
> > allocated elsewhere.
>
> And you're an asshole. Look around and see if
> there isn't an Advanced Asshole Remediation
> Program available somewhere. You may need to take
> it twice.
>
> The commitment of the law meanwhile is to provide
> an appropriate and meaningful education to all
> children. That means each of them individually.
> We tailor programs for every student, including
> those with special abilities and those with
> special disabilities. That's what ALL means!
> Grow up a little, maybe?


Thank you!!!!!

the tailors Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All those laws are nice, but at the end of the
> day, we, as individuals, are pretty much in charge
> of our own minds and educations. If the
> government gets any more involved than it already
> is, we will all be asking for those charter
> schools or home schooling.

Go for it. Be careful what you wish for though. Charter schools don't have the wonderful record that proponents tend to claim for them, while home-schoolers continue to clamor for access to public school activities and resources. Imagine that.

And at the end of the day, what we are trying to do here is structure something that works, not for your kid, but for as a close to every kid as possible. Your fears of group-action through government suggest only that there were important gaps in the materials that were made available to you at some point along the line.

> I'm sure the above post was by someone who takes
> themselves way too seriously at Gatehouse. They
> "tailor" lots of things. It can sometimes seem
> like a bad dystopian novel.

Sure, bonehead. Education occurs at the personal level. Both boring kids to death and dumping them into environments where they can't possibly succeed are neanderthal-level strategies. In baseball, managers go on and on about putting players into situations where they can succeed. In a school setting, tailoring the environment to what the individual student best responds to and is most capable of dealing with is the only sensible tack to take. All that's actually dystopian here is your pointless, dumbed-down, gum-up-the-works approach to things.

If they are so smart . . . . Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If these supposedly gifted students are receiving
> advanced academic curriculum, why is it that they
> can't pass the advanced math tests that are
> created by the county and why are some of them
> reading two years below the grade level benchmark.
> Teachers are dumbing down the tests and giving
> them grade level assessments so that they can
> pass. Nothing advanced about that is there?

Well I can answer your questions to clear this up. "why is it that they
> can't pass the advanced math tests that are
> created by the county and why are some of them
> reading two years below the grade level benchmark. 1. They do, all pass the math tests - for the grade ahead of their actual grade! 2. All of them read ahead of their grade level, non of them read below their grade level.

dont know where you are getting your information but then again I suspect, given your ignorant assumptions, you have no experience whatsoever with AAP

heretic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > My kids WERE finding their own way. They needed
> > gifted programs desperately to do it. They WERE
> > kids first. To deny them an appropriate
> education
> > is child neglect/abuse.
> >
>
>
> See, I don't believe that the gifted programs are
> all that necessary. If you take a really smart kid
> and leave them in general ed, what's going to
> happen to them? They'll learn all the material
> faster - and then maybe they'll be bored. And they
> learn that they are smart, and they'll also learn
> what they have to do to succeed in a world full of
> people who are not as smart.
>
> If, instead, you take the really smart kid and put
> them in a special class full of smart kids that
> goes faster - I think they are less often bored,
> and they learn how to succeed with smarter people
> (which, sadly, is not the real world - FFXU is a
> good example of this :). But i also think they
> start spending more and more of their time
> worrying about how they stack up against everyone
> else - competition ratchets up early on.
>
> I wonder how many of those recent suicides were
> AAP kids?
>
> Anyway - no matter if they are in AAP Level IV
> center or not, eventually they get to college and
> work through the same material as others who want
> the same degree. Do we think being in a gifted
> program at ages 8-15 has much of a bearing on
> performance in college coursework? I don't.
>
> I think any parent who thinks their kids really
> need gifted programs should be really clear about
> WHY they think so. I just don't see how they help
> much.

When my son's Level IV class had a student that was 2 grades ahead in math and scored a perfect score in a math challenge (1st student in 10 years to do so) they all cheered him on and treated him like you would a star on a sports team. When my daughter was scoring perfect scores on her math in her mainstream 2nd grade class the other girls ostracized her. Girls especially, suffer from being shunned if they are advanced in math.

Another reason AAP is vital for the faster learning kids...

!!! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> For all those who think gifted education is a
> waste of money and everybody should be in the same
> classroom, why don't you put your child in a
> classroom full of special Ed students with IQ
> ranging from 60-80? They can learn so much there.
> It would be so helpful for the special Ed kids.
> Let them be kids first. Let them find their way.
> Don't push them. They might commit suicide. Let
> you listen to people telling you that
> appropriately educating your child is a waste of
> money. Why don't you then listen to people telling
> you that you are elitist because you want a
> developmentally appropriate program for your
> child. See how you like it.

Well said.

Don't really care about the curriculum but the program got my kids into a nearby school with better demographics without us having to go through the hassle of moving.

Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Total Waste Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The G/T AAP program is crap. An entitlement
> > program for those that do not need it. All
> kinds
> > of money goes to this program which should be
> > allocated elsewhere.
>
> And you're an asshole. Look around and see if
> there isn't an Advanced Asshole Remediation
> Program available somewhere. You may need to take
> it twice.
>
> The commitment of the law meanwhile is to provide
> an appropriate and meaningful education to all
> children. That means each of them individually.
> We tailor programs for every student, including
> those with special abilities and those with
> special disabilities. That's what ALL means!
> Grow up a little, maybe?

This is the problem, politicians get involved, the AAP Program is an entitlement program and waste of money for those who do not need it. See the comments that "division" made, they just chilled in class, did their own thing and moved on. No harm, no foul and they are well adjusted.

AAP type kids get bullied in class because they lack social skill and self control. Blurting out answers all the time frustrate the teachers and other students in the class. They all know Johnny is a "genius" but Johnny needs to shut his mouth and suck it up. He will move on later in life, but until he learns self control he will be not liked and not welcomed in Corporate America.

The sooner these loving parents explain to the less than 2% "smart kids" they need to work on their social skills the better off this 2% will be. When you group a bunch of the top 15-20% together and tell them they are all "special" then you have reverse segregation. This is a stew of bad things brewing.

Why do these 15-20% get special treatment, extra funds and the other 80% of the student body just get the leftovers and crowed classrooms?

Let me turn this around, true story. At an FCPS Elementary school the Principal played games with teacher staffing and the AAP program. At the last minute too many new kids signed up and the 6th grade GE classes were busting at the seams. Not enough kids to another GE teacher, but too many kids for a standard class size. So the school decided to "select" a dozen kids to be moved into the AAP classrooms. The kids would not be in the AAP program, they would have to "apply" if they wanted to continue in the program in Middle school. You should have heard the arrogant AAP parents about how the school was "dumbing" down the program for their "special" students. The outrage that the AAP parents exhibited really showed their true colors and how badly flawed the entire program is.

Go put this in your APP pipe and smoke it!

The crap I have seen over the years is just too funny and sad at the same time. Parents that claim all their kids have to be treated equally, if one is AAP material, they are all AAP material. 3rd graders thinking they are superior because they are in the G/T aka AAP program and bragging about it all the time. Elementary and Middle School kids saying things like if they do not get into the AAP program or TJ they cannot get into a "good" college! I have seen and heard it all. You wonder why other kids do not like all of this. A superiority complex at the ripe old age of 9 years old. Boy do they have a rude awakening ahead in their future.

I know a dumb GE kid that started college at 17 never was in the AAP program, never took any honors courses in Middle School and graduated with 3 honors, 6 AP's waived out of college Math and is very successful, intellectually, socially and professionally.

I know kids that were in the G/T aka AAP programs that were into all sorts of drugs to stay up with the programs, went off to college and were home before December of Freshman year. They were not longer "special" and no longer had "special classes". Butt hurts at some point.

Stupid Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> AAP type kids get bullied in class because they
> lack social skill and self control. Blurting out
> answers all the time frustrate the teachers and
> other students in the class. They all know Johnny
> is a "genius" but Johnny needs to shut his mouth
> and suck it up. He will move on later in life, but
> until he learns self control he will be not liked
> and not welcomed in Corporate America.
>
> The sooner these loving parents explain to the
> less than 2% "smart kids" they need to work on
> their social skills the better off this 2% will
> be. When you group a bunch of the top 15-20%
> together and tell them they are all "special" then
> you have reverse segregation. This is a stew of
> bad things brewing.
>
> Why do these 15-20% get special treatment, extra
> funds and the other 80% of the student body just
> get the leftovers and crowed classrooms?


You are ignorant. The Level IV kids are socially the same or more mature when compared to mainstream. Impulse control issues like 'blurting out' answers is no more common in AAP than mainstream (probably less). Your projection of a socially inept nerd stereo type is precisely the kind of ignorance these kids and their parents are trying to escape in the mainstream. I dont blame you for your ignorance but it is a good example of the kind of misunderstanding these kids experience.


As to the rest of the post - its not my experience that kids or parents in the program are any more or less rude than mainstream. Mixing non-Level IV kids and Level IV is actually common practice when non-Level IV kids excel in a subject. My kids often welcomed classes half full of kids not in Level IV who needed the advanced instruction. I never heard anyone (parent or kid) complain about it (we have been in Level IV for 5 years with 2 kids).

As another poster suggested ask to have your kids put in classes for kids with special needs in the lower end of the spectrum if you think there is so much life experience there. You would have the additional benefit of not having smart kids 'blurting out' answers in the lowest level classes.

kchF9 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dont know where you are getting your information
> but then again I suspect, given your ignorant
> assumptions, you have no experience whatsoever
> with AAP

Some of these folks seem to have had no experience with the 11th grade. But they've been told by the masters to say as many bad things about public schools as they can, so they do. It just gets absurd after a while. Outrageous salaries, bloated bureaucracies, unions, parking fee slush funds, turf fields, suicides, reduced price meals, bus schedules, liberal indoctrination...it just goes on and on, and it's all nonsense that's irrelevant to actual education.

uwh9y Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Girls especially, suffer from being shunned if
> they are advanced in math.

Says something about the anti-intellectual girls who post here as well. Always needing to tear things and people down. That can't be good. Once we sought and considered the wisdom of experts. Now they are simply vilified as ivory tower elites who are out of touch with mainstream America. LOL!

I know first hand that this is the case -- I have seen the reading assessments done on third grade students who are still reading at a DRA 16 which means that they are two years below where they should be at the start of third grade. Likewise, I know first hand that at least at one Level IV Center, kids are not taking the Advanced Math tests that they should be taking because they can't pass them. I am not saying that there aren't "truly" high achieving students in Level IV programs, because there are. There are a lot of students who are in the program who aren't and very few have a chance at getting into TJ.

LUV AAP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't really care about the curriculum but the
> program got my kids into a nearby school with
> better demographics without us having to go
> through the hassle of moving.

World and national demographics are something you will not be able to move or transfer away from. If your little Biff or Muffy is unable to work effectively as part of a diverse team and workforce upon leaving school, he or she will be put into mandatory remediation programs. It will go on their permanent records. And if those programs do not solve the problem, termination will.

If you are talking about kids who get bussed from Saratoga or Newington Forest, you have no idea what you are talking about.

General education teachers are being told that they have to provide remediation for those Level III students who get pull out for Advanced Math . . . . and aren't able to do the work. Go figure.

Stupid Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [blah, blah, blah, blah]

I say again, you are an asshole. Look around and see if there isn't an Advanced Asshole Remediation Program available somewhere. You may need to take it twice.

> I know kids that were in the G/T aka AAP programs
> that were into all sorts of drugs to stay up with
> the programs, went off to college and were home
> before December of Freshman year. They were not
> longer "special" and no longer had "special
> classes". Butt hurts at some point.

Your derpish asshole musings don't mean jack squat, dorkbrain. Nobody gives a shit who you claim to know. You aren't as much as a pixel on an 85-inch plasma flat screen, so go back to the fucking drawing board, you uninteresting dumbfuck loser.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2014 01:05PM by Hey Goober.

J7Xpx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stupid Hey Goober Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
> > AAP type kids get bullied in class because they
> > lack social skill and self control. Blurting
> out
> > answers all the time frustrate the teachers and
> > other students in the class. They all know
> Johnny
> > is a "genius" but Johnny needs to shut his
> mouth
> > and suck it up. He will move on later in life,
> but
> > until he learns self control he will be not
> liked
> > and not welcomed in Corporate America.
> >
> > The sooner these loving parents explain to the
> > less than 2% "smart kids" they need to work on
> > their social skills the better off this 2% will
> > be. When you group a bunch of the top 15-20%
> > together and tell them they are all "special"
> then
> > you have reverse segregation. This is a stew of
> > bad things brewing.
> >
> > Why do these 15-20% get special treatment,
> extra
> > funds and the other 80% of the student body
> just
> > get the leftovers and crowed classrooms?
>
>
> You are ignorant. The Level IV kids are socially
> the same or more mature when compared to
> mainstream. Impulse control issues like 'blurting
> out' answers is no more common in AAP than
> mainstream (probably less). Your projection of a
> socially inept nerd stereo type is precisely the
> kind of ignorance these kids and their parents are
> trying to escape in the mainstream. I dont blame
> you for your ignorance but it is a good example of
> the kind of misunderstanding these kids
> experience.
>
>
> As to the rest of the post - its not my experience
> that kids or parents in the program are any more
> or less rude than mainstream. Mixing non-Level IV
> kids and Level IV is actually common practice when
> non-Level IV kids excel in a subject. My kids
> often welcomed classes half full of kids not in
> Level IV who needed the advanced instruction. I
> never heard anyone (parent or kid) complain about
> it (we have been in Level IV for 5 years with 2
> kids).
>
> As another poster suggested ask to have your kids
> put in classes for kids with special needs in the
> lower end of the spectrum if you think there is so
> much life experience there. You would have the
> additional benefit of not having smart kids
> 'blurting out' answers in the lowest level
> classes.



Like I said...why don't you move your kid into the remedial classes and tell them to suck it up and shut their mouth for 12 friggin' years because somebody wants them to learn to deal with a diverse population and they aren't worth spending educational dollars on. Bunch of crap.

Hey Goober,

You should be in charge of a Fortune 500 Company or a high level politician.

Your personal attacks and bedside manner will get you far in life!

I am stating facts, I have seen this in real time and know many of these "special" kids and parents and enough is enough.

Better Demographics???? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you are talking about kids who get bussed from
> Saratoga or Newington Forest, you have no idea
> what you are talking about.


No idea where that even is.

I got a deal on my house because of the school district so sending my kids to the AAP school works great. I'm less concerned with what they're being taught than who they're hanging out with. I can even go to school events and speak with the other parents. At the neighborhood school I used to run into the janitor chick from my office, I don't want my kids associating with kids whose parents clean toilets.

YOU CAN'T ACCEPT THE TRUTH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know first hand that this is the case -- I have
> seen the reading assessments done on third grade
> students who are still reading at a DRA 16 which
> means that they are two years below where they
> should be at the start of third grade. Likewise,
> I know first hand that at least at one Level IV
> Center, kids are not taking the Advanced Math
> tests that they should be taking because they
> can't pass them. I am not saying that there aren't
> "truly" high achieving students in Level IV
> programs, because there are. There are a lot of
> students who are in the program who aren't and
> very few have a chance at getting into TJ.


'kids are not passing them' you mean 2 kids, the whole class, all the Level IV classes? My kids have been in aap a long time and I have never seen or heard of this. You claim to have seen this first hand and thats fine but I assure you it is the exception if this is true at all.

As to TJ that is another kettle of fish. Basically TJ is the Annandale campus of Asian University. 70% asian student body in an area with 25% Asian population. Kids that get in here are take test prep for this years in advance. Im sure most of the students accepted were Level IV students but they spent all their summers studying and 7th and 8th grades taking after school prep courses for the admission test(s).

Stupid Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Goober,
>
> You should be in charge of a Fortune 500 Company
> or a high level politician.
>
> Your personal attacks and bedside manner will get
> you far in life!
>
> I am stating facts, I have seen this in real time
> and know many of these "special" kids and parents
> and enough is enough.



You are making personal attacks against gifted children and their families. I don't see you apologizing.

!!! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stupid Hey Goober Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hey Goober,
> >
> > You should be in charge of a Fortune 500
> Company
> > or a high level politician.
> >
> > Your personal attacks and bedside manner will
> get
> > you far in life!
> >
> > I am stating facts, I have seen this in real
> time
> > and know many of these "special" kids and
> parents
> > and enough is enough.
>
>
>
> You are making personal attacks against gifted
> children and their families. I don't see you
> apologizing.


Its ok, the schools will have on hand a number of counselors on hand for anyone that had their feelings hurt and may need a hug.

I want to hold your hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Its ok, the schools will have on hand a number of
> counselors on hand for anyone that had their
> feelings hurt and may need a hug.

You are correct there are school counselors available at all schools. Is that a bad thing or is this just another troll claiming anything and everything about public schools is bad?

"General education teachers are being told that they have to provide remediation for those Level III students who get pull out for Advanced Math . . . . and aren't able to do the work. Go figure."


This is why my son asked to be taken out of the "Advanced" program. He said he was missing too much in his regular class and needed time there to get it done. When I tried to pull him out of the "advanced program", the school got all upset and told me he needed to be in advanced. We pulled him anyway and he is fine. Maybe they made a mistake putting him in there?

You put your child where you and your child think they are the most comfortable. They shouldn't be worrying what is going on in their regular class. The advanced stuff should be what they are focusing on. This sounds strange.

One of mine was being groomed for TJ, they didn't want any part of it, tore up the application, and never looked back. No regrets at all in hindsight. They had the capabilities, but were totally satisfied with AP in the regular high school.

My other child repeated one of the advanced math classes, or rather didn't move on as far as they could have. They only took half a step forward instead of a full. They are now a math major in college.

It is a very tricky balance to achieve.

"They shouldn't be worrying what is going on in their regular class."


Well, yes, he had to worry because that work was due and had to be finished even if he was out of the room when it was being done. The stuff happening in the regular classroom counted towards his grade.

had to do the work Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "They shouldn't be worrying what is going on in
> their regular class."
>
>
> Well, yes, he had to worry because that work was
> due and had to be finished even if he was out of
> the room when it was being done. The stuff
> happening in the regular classroom counted towards
> his grade.


Aha, then that is a problem. This doesn't sound very well-organized and is precisely why I was never a fan of these pullout programs. If you are pulled out for one thing and miss something else that needs to be accomplished, that is a mess. When they are in it full-time, then it is coordinated.

had to do the work Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "They shouldn't be worrying what is going on in
> their regular class."
>
>
> Well, yes, he had to worry because that work was
> due and had to be finished even if he was out of
> the room when it was being done. The stuff
> happening in the regular classroom counted towards
> his grade.

Yea Level III never really made sense to me if they pull the kid from another class unless its related (ie pull from 3rd grade math to take 4th grade) but if they are pulling him and he is missing material he does not know what is the point?

Level 3 is a waste of money. It's only there to appease the parents of kids who didn't get into level 4. I didn't even know it existed until they put my kid in it and then I asked for him to be taken out of it. They teach things that are totally unrelated to the classroom curriculum and there is no grade given (no accountability at all for this teacher so it's a great gig if you can get it). Someone should FOIA the number of these teachers (but I believe there is at least one in every elementary school).

more waste Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Level 3 is a waste of money. It's only there to
> appease the parents of kids who didn't get into
> level 4. I didn't even know it existed until they
> put my kid in it and then I asked for him to be
> taken out of it. They teach things that are
> totally unrelated to the classroom curriculum and
> there is no grade given (no accountability at all
> for this teacher so it's a great gig if you can
> get it). Someone should FOIA the number of these
> teachers (but I believe there is at least one in
> every elementary school).

It does sound like a waste and something done to appease parents. I think it sounds very stressful to have a pullout that conflicts with the regular classes they have to take. How much did and are they spending on this?

And no testing or grading does make it a good gig. Teaching for the fun of it, no strings attached.

If they can't organize it better it almost sounds like maybe they need a full time step between regular classroom and full time gifted. I have always felt grouping students with similar academic needs was more cost-efficient. Or, offer an upgraded class option at the same time as the regular, which would allow for intense customization. You might have kids from multiple grades in some of them. This could be a tricky thing to organize.

You always have a problem when a child is gifted in only certain subjects. I think perhaps that is why some of the kids in the full time gifted programs might not do well in all subjects. They might have been placed there as the closest academic fit with the understanding that English might be a stretch, etc., but the other four or five subjects the child desperately needed. Kids are not always gifted in all areas. That is just the nature of the beast, though.

It certainly is very difficult to expect a teacher to provide multiple levels of curriculum within the same classroom. There are only so many hours in the day. You can't teach three kinds of math and three levels of science all at the same time.

"It certainly is very difficult to expect a teacher to provide multiple levels of curriculum within the same classroom."

It certainly is, but it is expected of all teachers. The 80% of students who are not in the AAP are not all at the same level. Every student is different no matter where they are sitting and teachers deal with this every day.

This thread is great. I'm the op and instead of jumping in earlier, I chose to just let this marinate here for a while and I now have a much better idea of how to proceed with my kid's education.

So thank you. Most of you, anyway.

I'm coming from a background where some of my brightest friends dropped out of high school because they were bored and thought "real life" would be much more fulfilling. It was, I guess, but real life will kick your ass when you're trying to take care of a family on a GED. So I worry that my kid, who is still very young but already bored with school (except for the social stuff) will burn out and be "too smart for this bullshit."

We will just take it all as it comes, I guess. She might not be so advanced by the time it matters anyway. I really appreciate all your replies though.

Thankyou. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread is great. I'm the op and instead of
> jumping in earlier, I chose to just let this
> marinate here for a while and I now have a much
> better idea of how to proceed with my kid's
> education.
>
> So thank you. Most of you, anyway.
>
> I'm coming from a background where some of my
> brightest friends dropped out of high school
> because they were bored and thought "real life"
> would be much more fulfilling. It was, I guess,
> but real life will kick your ass when you're
> trying to take care of a family on a GED. So I
> worry that my kid, who is still very young but
> already bored with school (except for the social
> stuff) will burn out and be "too smart for this
> bullshit."
>
> We will just take it all as it comes, I guess. She
> might not be so advanced by the time it matters
> anyway. I really appreciate all your replies
> though.


Ffu is great as long as you can look past the porn. People let it all hang out.
It is so important to properly educate all children. Boredom is a huge problem with the gifted. And so is the antagonist attitude the parents have to put up with, when they are just trying to handle this intelligently and responsibly.

yes it is and we help each other Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "It certainly is very difficult to expect a
> teacher to provide multiple levels of curriculum
> within the same classroom."
>
> It certainly is, but it is expected of all
> teachers. The 80% of students who are not in the
> AAP are not all at the same level. Every student
> is different no matter where they are sitting and
> teachers deal with this every day.

What kinds of things can you do to help each other and the kids? I had my child in a standard classroom and they did nothing to help. If it hadn't been for the gifted program, I don't know what I would have done. It was too dangerous. Can you all plan to teach math at the same time, and have the kids move around to the level they need, with each teacher doing a different level, for example?

I teach third grade in a gen ed classroom. I challenge all of my students through differentiation and setting high expectations for all, whether they are overachievers or students who find school challenging because of a learning difference. I provide enrichment to keep my high ability kids engaged. One of the areas that I see with many children that I want to challenge and push harder is that they lack perseverance. They are used to everything coming easily to them and when that doesn't happen, they complain, they give up, and refuse to challenge themselves.

Often is the case that when a high achieving student in a gen ed classroom does get into the center, they can't keep up with those who are "truly gifted", i.e., CoGAT score of 135+ and their self-esteem plummets. Parents need to take a reality check.

How does CoGAT compare to IQ?

!!! Wrote:
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> How does CoGAT compare to IQ?

Found it.

If these kids are so smart and mature, they should just skip a grade. Oh, but wait, this then means the 2nd grader will not be with all their friends when the jump to 4th grade.

But if the kids are so smart a mature, then how come parents have not address this before 2ne grade on their own?

There are plenty of kids that test well, but do not do well academically and vs. versa. Not sure the "standardized testing really takes this into consideration.

Public School is not for everyone, but Public School needs to cater to everyone.

Best to really think long and hard about the child, realize this program is usually only for 4-6 years. Many kids do not continue on with the AAP program in Middle School if they have to go outside of their pyramid.

Seen too many cases where kids get involved in the AAP program, either go to other schools or are pretty well separated from the rest of their friends, might even go to a Middle School outside of the pyramid then come back to their home High School and low and behold they are like kids that just moved into the area. Friends they last saw in 2nd grade are no longer connected or even recall who these students are after 4-6 years.

I am sure there are positives about all of this, but be careful how you proceed as it may turn out to be something very different than you expect.

It used to be that to get into the Center GT program the kid had to have a 140 Full Scale IQ. Now, they let kids in with 130s on only one part of the IQ test. So in the old days, the kids really were advanced. Now, I know a lot of bright kids that go to the AAP Center programs, who learn quickly and are good workers, but are not truly gifted. Many of the AAP Center programs assign a ridiculous amount of homework and kids have to drop out of other extracurriculuars to get it all done. Unless your kid is truly, truly gifted, like 140 plus, leave them in the base school so they get a more normal experience with less stress. The upper grades in most schools do group for math so your kid can be in the "high" group.

Teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It used to be that to get into the Center GT
> program the kid had to have a 140 Full Scale IQ.
> Now, they let kids in with 130s on only one part
> of the IQ test. So in the old days, the kids
> really were advanced. Now, I know a lot of bright
> kids that go to the AAP Center programs, who learn
> quickly and are good workers, but are not truly
> gifted. Many of the AAP Center programs assign a
> ridiculous amount of homework and kids have to
> drop out of other extracurriculuars to get it all
> done. Unless your kid is truly, truly gifted, like
> 140 plus, leave them in the base school so they
> get a more normal experience with less stress. The
> upper grades in most schools do group for math so
> your kid can be in the "high" group.

Finally, a voice of reason and common sense!

Does anyone know what percentage of the students in the AAP centers are girls?

Would be interested in how many kids are in the AAP program,

Are stats readily available, I looked quickly and did not see much.

We never found the homework level to be a problem at what is now called level IV. I agree with the idea of leaving them at their base schools if possible. Do it until it doesn't work, then the decisions will be much easier. It was actually less stressful on my kids to finally be in an environment where they were accepted and felt like they fit in. I think that more than balanced out the higher demands of the academic programs.

I think this may be an issue!

"In 2001-02, FCPS started to substantially increase the percentage of students admitted to the GT Center program, and also substituted the Naglieri Non-Verbal Abilities Test (NNAT) for the OLSAT. In 2000, 6.7% of 3rd through 8th grade students attended Centers. That percentage increased to 18% in 2011-12. According to an FCPS Assistant Superintendent, the percentage jumped to 27% in 2012-13."

Wow, I had no idea that 27% of the 3rd through 8th graders, much less the general population is so "gifted". I must travel in the wrong areas.

http://www.fcag.org/gtfcps.html

!!! Wrote:
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> We never found the homework level to be a problem
> at what is now called level IV. I agree with the
> idea of leaving them at their base schools if
> possible. Do it until it doesn't work, then the
> decisions will be much easier. It was actually
> less stressful on my kids to finally be in an
> environment where they were accepted and felt like
> they fit in. I think that more than balanced out
> the higher demands of the academic programs.

Double-checked: One child was at what is now full time AAP. Homework was NOT a problem at all.

parent 987654 Wrote:
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Plus, every single child
> is gifted and talented in something, even if it's
> not the one and only 2ND grade aptitude test.

No, some will grow up to be felons.

Some are gifted thugs and felons.

yes it is and we help each other Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "It certainly is very difficult to expect a
> teacher to provide multiple levels of curriculum
> within the same classroom."
>
> It certainly is, but it is expected of all
> teachers. The 80% of students who are not in the
> AAP are not all at the same level. Every student
> is different no matter where they are sitting and
> teachers deal with this every day.

Well, actually for all practical purposes, yes, by definition they are:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQCDOQb05PV0a4HTHdYJgetBrFZBjIz7u4rkD1xfk1OWjuKzuhkgbpl4GW1

!!! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We never found the homework level to be a problem
> at what is now called level IV. I agree with the
> idea of leaving them at their base schools if
> possible. Do it until it doesn't work, then the
> decisions will be much easier. It was actually
> less stressful on my kids to finally be in an
> environment where they were accepted and felt like
> they fit in. I think that more than balanced out
> the higher demands of the academic programs.

Same here - we actually had much less homework once they switched to level iv. No more busy work.

The Nigger only needs to be gifted and talented at shooting "j's" and "toting the rock".

The biggest reason I see that parents are happy with Level IV schools is that their kids finally "fit in".

Looks like Level IV schools are really best as places to hold people who are socially inept.

I guess we have to put those slow social learners somewhere.

heretic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The biggest reason I see that parents are happy
> with Level IV schools is that their kids finally
> "fit in".
>
> Looks like Level IV schools are really best as
> places to hold people who are socially inept.
>
> I guess we have to put those slow social learners
> somewhere.

I do agree with your initial analysis but its not because they are socially inept quite the opposite. The level IV kids as a whole tend to be more mature and well behaved. Not that they dont have their share of characters and knuckleheads.

Ill never forget the day my 2nd grade son was sitting at the end of a cafeteria table eating on his own. I asked him why he wasnt sitting with the other 2nd grade boys. He just looked at me looked at them; I looked too. They were jumping up and down in their seats, food flying out of their mouths as they made wild and uncontrolled gesticualtions. What food they didnt spit on each other was spilled on the floor.

My kid looked at me and answered my question (why arent you sitting with the other boys?) and his response was 'would you?' I almost broke out laughing. No I wouldnt. I guess you could say that makes him socially retarded or inept but that is not my conclusion. I just saw a little kid thinking much older than his age.

For the most part all the kids in our school are pretty great - and I do mean that. We are lucky to stable families with relatively high incomes and high levels of education. This is a great place for kids to grow up.

If the level IV kids are supposedly more mature, why is it that at my child's school, the AAP kids and parents want the school playground at recess and third graders are sent to the school field? Go figure. Sixth graders are the size of the slide and they are as tall as monkey bars. It is quite ironic to say the least.

More mature ??? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the level IV kids are supposedly more mature,
> why is it that at my child's school, the AAP kids
> and parents want the school playground at recess
> and third graders are sent to the school field?
> Go figure. Sixth graders are the size of the slide
> and they are as tall as monkey bars. It is quite
> ironic to say the least.


Totally agree I work in a school the gifted children tend to be the most immature its very funny

heretic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The biggest reason I see that parents are happy
> with Level IV schools is that their kids finally
> "fit in".
>
> Looks like Level IV schools are really best as
> places to hold people who are socially inept.
>
> I guess we have to put those slow social learners
> somewhere.

Wouldn't want them getting in the way of the popular kids on their way towards reaching their peak in high school.

More mature ??? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the level IV kids are supposedly more mature,
> why is it that at my child's school, the AAP kids
> and parents want the school playground at recess
> and third graders are sent to the school field?
> Go figure. Sixth graders are the size of the slide
> and they are as tall as monkey bars. It is quite
> ironic to say the least.

I would hazard a guess that your kids are not AAP of any level. The playgrounds are designed for ages through 12. 6th graders are still kids. If you ask me playing on the equipment in the mulch is better than wondering around in the field but I would not judge anyone's desire to do either. They both could be fun.

I suspect your grasp of the situation is not complete as it sounds. Just because the 6th graders are smarter than you are doesnt mean they arent still kids...

More mature ??? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the level IV kids are supposedly more mature,
> why is it that at my child's school, the AAP kids
> and parents want the school playground at recess
> and third graders are sent to the school field?
> Go figure. Sixth graders are the size of the slide
> and they are as tall as monkey bars. It is quite
> ironic to say the least.

I dont know did you ever consider asking someone? BTW grades have lunch at the same time AAP Level IV or not. So you are a victim because, according to you, the AAP students and parents, as a portion of grade population, are able to dictate recess location?

Total BS.

=
Attachments:

No, this is not the case. We're talking about sixth graders who have recess with third graders at the end of the day, i.e., 3:15 to 3:35 and there are 5 third grade classrooms with a total of over 100 8-9 year old students.

BTW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, this is not the case. We're talking about
> sixth graders who have recess with third graders
> at the end of the day, i.e., 3:15 to 3:35 and
> there are 5 third grade classrooms with a total of
> over 100 8-9 year old students.


Recess has always been before or after lunch at our elementary schools. Never heard of recess at the end of the day - which school is it?

PhNCD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Recess has always been before or after lunch at
> our elementary schools. Never heard of recess at
> the end of the day - which school is it?

Both my kids had end of day recess at Forestville ES in Great Falls.

Since 6th graders in Fairfax County are so "advanced," one would think they would be treated as middle schoolers instead of elementary students. My kids went to private school in their early elementary years. After 4th grade, students had recess on the blacktop and not on the tot playground.

Places Beyond Fairfax Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since 6th graders in Fairfax County are so
> "advanced," one would think they would be treated
> as middle schoolers instead of elementary
> students. My kids went to private school in their
> early elementary years. After 4th grade, students
> had recess on the blacktop and not on the tot
> playground.

We make up for it by having them get up at night to go to school. Do your private school brats have to get up at 6am to catch the bus? BTW you are getting ripped off if your school can only afford a closed road for the kids to play on. You sound like a parent bitter at the fact that you PAY Extra for your kids school and they are still a little dim.

In all likelyhood you are the parent of a non-AAP or advanced student and do not understand that having a high IQ doesnt mean they are not still kids. They tend to be more mature when it comes to complying with rules but they are still very much kids at heart.