If you thought the sign up was screwed up, wait til the coverage "starts." Well it has. Obama"care" disaster in Northern Virginia goes global:


They had no idea if my insurance was active or not!': Obamacare confusion reigns as frustrated patients walk out of hospitals without treatment

* MailOnline spoke with patients who were told they would have to pay their bills in full if they couldn't prove they had insurance
* One was faced with a $3,000 hospital room charge and opted to leave the hospital after experiencing chest pains
* 'Should I be in the hospital? Probably,' she said
* Another, coughing in the cold, walked out without receiving a needed chest x-ray
* Consumers face sticker-shock from medical costs under the new Obamacare system, made worse if they can't prove they're insured
* As many as one-third of new enrollees' applications have seen problems when the government transmits them to insurance companies

By David Martosko, U.s. Political Editor

PUBLISHED: 2 January 2014

Hospital staff in Northern Virginia are turning away sick people on a frigid Thursday morning because they can't determine whether their Obamacare insurance plans are in effect.

Patients in a close-in DC suburb who think they've signed up for new insurance plans are struggling to show their December enrollments are in force, and health care administrators aren't taking their word for it.

In place of quick service and painless billing, these Virginians are now facing the threat of sticker-shock that comes with bills they can't afford.

'They had no idea if my insurance was active or not!' a coughing Maria Galvez told MailOnline outside the Inova Healthplex facility in the town of Springfield.

She was leaving the building without getting a needed chest x-ray.

'The people in there told me that since I didn't have an insurance card, I would be billed for the whole cost of the x-ray,' Galvez said, her young daughter in tow. 'It's not fair – you know, I signed up last week like I was supposed to.'

The x-ray's cost, she was told, would likely be more than $500.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2532869/They-no-idea-insurance-active-not-At-Virginia-hospitals-Obamacare-confusion-reigns-frustrated-patients-walk-out.html#ixzz2pLTsNQrx
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2014 09:24AM by RangerRikki.

Already been posted, pay attention, bagger.

RangerRikki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you thought the sign up was screwed up, wait
> til the coverage "starts." Well it has.
> Obama"care" disaster in Northern Virginia goes
> global:
>
>
> They had no idea if my insurance was active or
> not!': Obamacare confusion reigns as frustrated
> patients walk out of hospitals without treatment
>
> * MailOnline spoke with patients who were told
> they would have to pay their bills in full if they
> couldn't prove they had insurance
> * One was faced with a $3,000 hospital room
> charge and opted to leave the hospital after
> experiencing chest pains
> * 'Should I be in the hospital? Probably,' she
> said
> * Another, coughing in the cold, walked out
> without receiving a needed chest x-ray
> * Consumers face sticker-shock from medical
> costs under the new Obamacare system, made worse
> if they can't prove they're insured
> * As many as one-third of new enrollees'
> applications have seen problems when the
> government transmits them to insurance companies
>
> By David Martosko, U.s. Political Editor
>
> PUBLISHED: 2 January 2014
>
> Hospital staff in Northern Virginia are turning
> away sick people on a frigid Thursday morning
> because they can't determine whether their
> Obamacare insurance plans are in effect.
>
> Patients in a close-in DC suburb who think they've
> signed up for new insurance plans are struggling
> to show their December enrollments are in force,
> and health care administrators aren't taking their
> word for it.
>
> In place of quick service and painless billing,
> these Virginians are now facing the threat of
> sticker-shock that comes with bills they can't
> afford.
>
> 'They had no idea if my insurance was active or
> not!' a coughing Maria Galvez told MailOnline
> outside the Inova Healthplex facility in the town
> of Springfield.
>
> She was leaving the building without getting a
> needed chest x-ray.
>
> 'The people in there told me that since I didn't
> have an insurance card, I would be billed for the
> whole cost of the x-ray,' Galvez said, her young
> daughter in tow. 'It's not fair – you know, I
> signed up last week like I was supposed to.'
>
> The x-ray's cost, she was told, would likely be
> more than $500.
>
> Read more:
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2532869/Th
> ey-no-idea-insurance-active-not-At-Virginia-hospit
> als-Obamacare-confusion-reigns-frustrated-patients
> -walk-out.html#ixzz2pLTsNQrx
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on
> Facebook

Let me get this straight, Obamacare has failed because people that just signed up for coverage didn't immediately have insurance cards? Bullshit! This story is basically making a huge deal out of the uncertainty that some people unfamiliar with insurance have when they need services shortly after enrolling.

You know, when I started my last job, I had to fill out a bunch of forms to enroll in the insurance plan here. When I was done, HR didn't present me with an insurance card. Instead, I had to wait a couple of weeks until the paperwork was processed and the card arrived in the mail. Now, what would have happened if I'd needed hospital care between then? Well, the hospital would have billed me directly and I would have worked with my insurance company and the hospital to get things covered properly. Believe it or not, both companies have procedures in place to handle this sort of thing. If you're enrolled, you're covered whether you have an insurance card or not.

If the spic was really worried about her cough, she would have sprung for the x ray.

But she isn't, because she knows it isn't serious.

This is what will break the bank. Idiots going in for every little cough and sniffle.

....... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the spic was really worried about her cough,
> she would have sprung for the x ray.
>
> But she isn't, because she knows it isn't
> serious.
>
> This is what will break the bank. Idiots going in
> for every little cough and sniffle.


what's a "spic"?

MxX74 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RangerRikki Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If you thought the sign up was screwed up, wait
> > til the coverage "starts." Well it has.
> > Obama"care" disaster in Northern Virginia goes
> > global:
> >
> >
> > They had no idea if my insurance was active or
> > not!': Obamacare confusion reigns as frustrated
> > patients walk out of hospitals without
> treatment
> >
> > * MailOnline spoke with patients who were
> told
> > they would have to pay their bills in full if
> they
> > couldn't prove they had insurance
> > * One was faced with a $3,000 hospital room
> > charge and opted to leave the hospital after
> > experiencing chest pains
> > * 'Should I be in the hospital? Probably,'
> she
> > said
> > * Another, coughing in the cold, walked out
> > without receiving a needed chest x-ray
> > * Consumers face sticker-shock from medical
> > costs under the new Obamacare system, made
> worse
> > if they can't prove they're insured
> > * As many as one-third of new enrollees'
> > applications have seen problems when the
> > government transmits them to insurance
> companies
> >
> > By David Martosko, U.s. Political Editor
> >
> > PUBLISHED: 2 January 2014
> >
> > Hospital staff in Northern Virginia are turning
> > away sick people on a frigid Thursday morning
> > because they can't determine whether their
> > Obamacare insurance plans are in effect.
> >
> > Patients in a close-in DC suburb who think
> they've
> > signed up for new insurance plans are
> struggling
> > to show their December enrollments are in
> force,
> > and health care administrators aren't taking
> their
> > word for it.
> >
> > In place of quick service and painless billing,
> > these Virginians are now facing the threat of
> > sticker-shock that comes with bills they can't
> > afford.
> >
> > 'They had no idea if my insurance was active or
> > not!' a coughing Maria Galvez told MailOnline
> > outside the Inova Healthplex facility in the
> town
> > of Springfield.
> >
> > She was leaving the building without getting a
> > needed chest x-ray.
> >
> > 'The people in there told me that since I
> didn't
> > have an insurance card, I would be billed for
> the
> > whole cost of the x-ray,' Galvez said, her
> young
> > daughter in tow. 'It's not fair – you know, I
> > signed up last week like I was supposed to.'
> >
> > The x-ray's cost, she was told, would likely be
> > more than $500.
> >
> > Read more:
> >
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2532869/Th
>
> >
> ey-no-idea-insurance-active-not-At-Virginia-hospit
>
> >
> als-Obamacare-confusion-reigns-frustrated-patients
>
> > -walk-out.html#ixzz2pLTsNQrx
> > Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail
> on
> > Facebook
>
> Let me get this straight, Obamacare has failed
> because people that just signed up for coverage
> didn't immediately have insurance cards?
> Bullshit! This story is basically making a huge
> deal out of the uncertainty that some people
> unfamiliar with insurance have when they need
> services shortly after enrolling.
>
> You know, when I started my last job, I had to
> fill out a bunch of forms to enroll in the
> insurance plan here. When I was done, HR didn't
> present me with an insurance card. Instead, I had
> to wait a couple of weeks until the paperwork was
> processed and the card arrived in the mail. Now,
> what would have happened if I'd needed hospital
> care between then? Well, the hospital would have
> billed me directly and I would have worked with my
> insurance company and the hospital to get things
> covered properly. Believe it or not, both
> companies have procedures in place to handle this
> sort of thing. If you're enrolled, you're covered
> whether you have an insurance card or not.

This is a lie. Just because you are enrolled does not mean you have insurance. Tens of thousands of people are having trouble already. Do you pay attention to real life? Oh, what am I saying, you're a liberal.

Gerrymandererr2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a lie. Just because you are enrolled does
> not mean you have insurance. Tens of thousands of
> people are having trouble already. Do you pay
> attention to real life? Oh, what am I saying,
> you're a liberal.

Bullshit. The article says that since they can't show proof of insurance, the hospital is going to bill them directly. Not having an insurance card doesn't mean you don't have insurance, it means the USPS hasn't delivered your card to you yet.

Fucking teatards are all the same, just seeing what you want to see. Boo hoo hoo, there's a black man in the White House and he isn't serving coffee or doing laundry.

LbunT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gerrymandererr2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This is a lie. Just because you are enrolled
> does
> > not mean you have insurance. Tens of thousands
> of
> > people are having trouble already. Do you pay
> > attention to real life? Oh, what am I saying,
> > you're a liberal.
>
> Bullshit. The article says that since they can't
> show proof of insurance, the hospital is going to
> bill them directly. Not having an insurance card
> doesn't mean you don't have insurance, it means
> the USPS hasn't delivered your card to you yet.
>
> Fucking teatards are all the same, just seeing
> what you want to see. Boo hoo hoo, there's a
> black man in the White House and he isn't serving
> coffee or doing laundry.

Oh boy, libturds. If you have insurance you know it. You don't need a card. You only need to know your provider and policy number, which is given to you at the time you get coverage. Sebelius has even said not everybody has coverade that has enrolled. I guess you are calling her a liar. Insurance companies hqve reported that yesterday they have tens of thousands of erronous applications which can not be processed. How can you have health insurance if your application cant be processed? Hmmmm, liberal logic.

MxX74 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know, when I started my last job, I had to
> fill out a bunch of forms to enroll in the
> insurance plan here. When I was done, HR didn't
> present me with an insurance card. Instead, I had
> to wait a couple of weeks until the paperwork was
> processed and the card arrived in the mail. Now,
> what would have happened if I'd needed hospital
> care between then? Well, the hospital would have
> billed me directly and I would have worked with my
> insurance company and the hospital to get things
> covered properly. Believe it or not, both
> companies have procedures in place to handle this
> sort of thing. If you're enrolled, you're covered
> whether you have an insurance card or not.

Not so, you merely provide them your account information that you received after you signed up. Most companies provide that immediately after signing up and covering you until your insurance kicks in.

numbnut linturds Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LbunT Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Gerrymandererr2 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > This is a lie. Just because you are enrolled
> > does
> > > not mean you have insurance. Tens of
> thousands
> > of
> > > people are having trouble already. Do you pay
> > > attention to real life? Oh, what am I saying,
> > > you're a liberal.
> >
> > Bullshit. The article says that since they
> can't
> > show proof of insurance, the hospital is going
> to
> > bill them directly. Not having an insurance
> card
> > doesn't mean you don't have insurance, it means
> > the USPS hasn't delivered your card to you yet.
> >
> > Fucking teatards are all the same, just seeing
> > what you want to see. Boo hoo hoo, there's a
> > black man in the White House and he isn't
> serving
> > coffee or doing laundry.
>
> Oh boy, libturds. If you have insurance you know
> it. You don't need a card. You only need to know
> your provider and policy number, which is given to
> you at the time you get coverage.

Provided how pray tell? Did someone instantly knock on their door and say "Here's your coverage information"? No, it probably popped up on their screen or was e-mailed to them or something.

> Sebelius has
> even said not everybody has coverade that has
> enrolled. I guess you are calling her a liar.

Citation needed...

> Insurance companies hqve reported that yesterday
> they have tens of thousands of erronous
> applications which can not be processed. How can
> you have health insurance if your application cant
> be processed? Hmmmm, liberal logic.

Obviously these people submitted eroneous applications and it wasn't processed. Nice assumption there, dumbass.

Teatards are all the same, tempest in a teapot. Look look look, the Magic Negro is a fraud and a failure because life isn't immediately perfect!

Sometimes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MxX74 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You know, when I started my last job, I had to
> > fill out a bunch of forms to enroll in the
> > insurance plan here. When I was done, HR
> didn't
> > present me with an insurance card. Instead, I
> had
> > to wait a couple of weeks until the paperwork
> was
> > processed and the card arrived in the mail.
> Now,
> > what would have happened if I'd needed hospital
> > care between then? Well, the hospital would
> have
> > billed me directly and I would have worked with
> my
> > insurance company and the hospital to get
> things
> > covered properly. Believe it or not, both
> > companies have procedures in place to handle
> this
> > sort of thing. If you're enrolled, you're
> covered
> > whether you have an insurance card or not.
>
> Not so, you merely provide them your account
> information that you received after you signed up.
> Most companies provide that immediately after
> signing up and covering you until your insurance
> kicks in.

I'm sure they knew that. After all, everyone knows how to use insurance, even if they haven't had it before. It's the same as driving or using a computer - no experience necessary!

"No x-ray for you: This patient left a Virginia medical facility without receiving a test her doctor recommended."

Really. Did her doctor - who she apparently saw without confirmation of insurance - recommend that she go to the emergency room? I doubt it. Most people are directed to some type of radiology clinic for that type of screening. If this woman had been in truly bad shape she would not have walked out of the ER over a $500 x-ray.

I am so sick of you tea baggers using these so-called 'sob stories' to illustrate the supposed 'failure' of Obamacare. Grow up, people. If you choose to go to the emergency room for a routine exam and you haven't checked on the status of your insurance coverage, that's on you. And if you then choose to leave the ER after coming to the realization that there are actual costs involved in your medical care, and you aren't willing to file for reimbursement, then that's your choice. What a bunch of entitled whiners.

lol weasel OP trying to slip a political Anti Obama Care thread into General. These threads have destroyed off topic.

wait...i was told obamacare meant free healthcare for everyone. was i lied to?

You were also told Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. So gullible, you.

Why are we hearing about our governments shitty health program from British journalists?
Where the he'll are the American press on this?

They've got a great single payer system while we're over here experimenting with stupid Conservative ideas out of the Heritage Foundation.

Ofcourse they're going to point and laugh.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2014 08:50PM by Gerrymanderer2.

Sometimes Wrote:
> Not so, you merely provide them your account
> information that you received after you signed up.
> Most companies provide that immediately after
> signing up and covering you until your insurance
> kicks in.

On what planet? If it was that simple, people would just make up numbers.


Here's how stupid it is: if you have a card, and ID that matches it (and checking ID against the card is new within the last few years), they'll accept it, even though all the cards are different, have no anti-counterfeiting measures, and so could be trivially forged. It's a tricky issue anyway, because they don't want to be seen as "refusing to treat". But God forbid you be honest and say something like "Our insurance just changed but we don't have new cards yet" (which used to happen EVERY YEAR when my small company would change plans because the previous plan tried to jack rates by 40%): now you get to pay out-of-pocket and get reimbursed (maybe). And this isn't new, isn't the result of ACA; it's been that way forever. BTDT.

ObAnecdote: I had the above situation occur when my wife needed an MRI. "Then you have to pay out of pocket and get reimbursed". OK, fine, I can float the $$$.

Then the claim gets processed and I get back the negotiated, in-plan amount, which is about half what I paid. OK, so I call the facility and talk to their billing. "Oh, our billing is done through Inova, call them". I call Inova. "That's up to the facility, not our problem". Of course each of these iterations takes hours/days, what with being put on hold and, oh yeah, having a job. Insurance company says "Not our problem, we processed the claim".

After two or three such exchanges, I receive a SECOND check from the insurance company, for a slightly different amount, with a letter saying "Oh, we processed the claim under the wrong code, please cash this check and return the other one" (why they couldn't subtract and just deal with the delta is, of course, a mystery).

Ah HAH! sez I: now I have some leverage. So I call the insurance company and tell them, "You'll be made whole when I'm made whole -- YOU get to call the facility and/or Inova and get it squared away". Suddenly, everyone was able to deal with the issue, and soon things are fixed.

For the anti-ACA faction: this was a decade ago, with what is and was considered a good, employer-paid plan. If you've never had problems like this with existing, pre-ACA insurance, consider yourself lucky.

ACA isn't going to be perfect, but it can hardly be worse than what we have now. Most of what's going to be borked about it will be changeover/teething pains and residual effects of its half-assedness. The latter of these is due to the big money that tried to block it (read: the insurance lobby).

Meanwhile, the insurance companies are whining, while banking the largest profits in history; businesses are whining, while using ACA as an excuse to cut benefits, after having been squeezed every year by rising rates.

And one last point, for those who buy the nonsense about how ACA will "limit care": do the research--that's exactly what the insurance companies have been doing for the last several decades. Their goal is to keep you from getting care, so they don't have to pay for it. If you don't see this, you need some basic economics education.

Too many people think that because they haven't had a problem, the system is fine. Yet anyone with any visibility into the industry knows that the trendlines are showing unsustainability, and soon. The "It wasn't broken" faction are like the guy falling off the building who, as he's passing the 10th floor, says, "This isn't so bad..."

SOCIALIZED HEALTHCARE FOR ALL U.S. CITIZENS

It's the only sensible solution to the joke that is our healthcare system. Fuck the illegals though.

"And one last point, for those who buy the nonsense about how ACA will "limit care": do the research--that's exactly what the insurance companies have been doing for the last several decades. Their goal is to keep you from getting care, so they don't have to pay for it. If you don't see this, you need some basic economics education."

I have experience with both government provided services and private insurance. Before my husband retired from the military, I had to take my son to the emergency room of a local hospital in the middle of the night.
CHAMPUS which was then the insurance company for the military was terrible to deal with. If this is what Obamacare and socialized medicine will bring, count me out. I did not pay "up front" but spent a few hours every two or three months on the phone with the hospital and the government insurance company, trying to resolve the issue. This went on for two years. Trying to resolve the issue. It did finally get resolved, but it was very frustrating. If this is an example of how government run health care will work, please count me out.
Before husband retired, I took the kids for illness and checkups to the military clinic. Go in and wait for hours. After one procedure which was a disaster--I was told I would have to bring the child in the next day and wait in line again. This should give everyone a clue as to what socialized medicine will bring.

After husband retired, we paid for health insurance through his company and never used military medicine again. Occasionally, there would be glitches with the insurance company--but the glitches were always resolved. And, they didn't take two years.

Government run health care? Not a good thing.









US

guess what teabaggers? Socialism is not a dirty word. USA is not the world model for every social policy that exists. Progressive is not a dirty word. you need to take an honest look at why you are dead set against PROGRESS. it's because you are scared. the more your fears grow, the louder you become. you will soon be drowned out by that which scares you most. take an honest look at yourself. you are no longer representative of our national interests. you epitomize everything that is wrong with this country, but the US will continue to PROGRESS despite your obstinacy, and you and your narrow selfish interests will continue to fade to nothing.

no to socialized medicine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "And one last point, for those who buy the
> nonsense about how ACA will "limit care": do the
> research--that's exactly what the insurance
> companies have been doing for the last several
> decades. Their goal is to keep you from getting
> care, so they don't have to pay for it. If you
> don't see this, you need some basic economics
> education."
>
> I have experience with both government provided
> services and private insurance. Before my husband
> retired from the military, I had to take my son to
> the emergency room of a local hospital in the
> middle of the night.
> CHAMPUS which was then the insurance company for
> the military was terrible to deal with. If this
> is what Obamacare and socialized medicine will
> bring, count me out. I did not pay "up front" but
> spent a few hours every two or three months on the
> phone with the hospital and the government
> insurance company, trying to resolve the issue.
> This went on for two years. Trying to resolve the
> issue. It did finally get resolved, but it was
> very frustrating. If this is an example of how
> government run health care will work, please count
> me out.
> Before husband retired, I took the kids for
> illness and checkups to the military clinic. Go in
> and wait for hours. After one procedure which was
> a disaster--I was told I would have to bring the
> child in the next day and wait in line again.
> This should give everyone a clue as to what
> socialized medicine will bring.
>
> After husband retired, we paid for health
> insurance through his company and never used
> military medicine again. Occasionally, there
> would be glitches with the insurance company--but
> the glitches were always resolved. And, they
> didn't take two years.
>
> Government run health care? Not a good thing.

Sorry about your hassles. But that wasn't because it was government run per se: it was because the existing system is a broken patchwork. Had we actually had socialized medicine, you wouldn't have had any hassles at all.

In Canada, you go to the doc or hospital and they treat you. No bills. I spent 17 years there; the only bill I ever saw was for a cane rental after I buggered my knee playing hockey. That cane rental came after an ER visit and several weeks of physiotherapy (followed by several more months). Nothing out of pocket; not even discussed. Eventually I had arthroscopy; again, no bills.

Really hard to complain about something that works that well!

Greybeard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> In Canada, you go to the doc or hospital and they
> treat you. No bills. I spent 17 years there; the
> only bill I ever saw was for a cane rental after I
> buggered my knee playing hockey.

This is the same in many countries. Healthcare is consider a public service.

The US is one of the few countries that just lets Americans die.

CANADA's HEALTHCARE IS A JOKE.

CANNUCKS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CANADA's HEALTHCARE IS A JOKE.

And you say that based on...what?

P.S. "Canuck"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2014 07:50PM by Greybeard.

"Sorry about your hassles. But that wasn't because it was government run per se: it was because the existing system is a broken patchwork. Had we actually had socialized medicine, you wouldn't have had any hassles at all."

It was not a patchwork. It was two different forms of government run medicine-one was an insurance system and one a clinic. Both were awful.

I also have other stories: one child born in military hospital with four women and four babies in the room 24/7 and the bathroom down the hall. Lights on all night because there were no night lights in the room. This is what you can expect with socialized medicine.

Second child born in a city where there were no military facilities. CHAMPUS over paid the private hospital by $10,000 (this was when that was a significant medical cost). I tried to complain to Champus but they acted like I was asking for more money. A year later, I got a bill from the hospital for $10000--even though the bill was not that high to start with. Fortunately, when I called, the hospital understood what had happened and took care of it. Champus had asked for its money back from the hospital-finally.

As far as Canada, I think if you look at the stats, you will find lots more Canadians coming to the US for procedures rather than vice versa. It may be free, but you wait months for procedures that are readily available here.

I know this is tl;dr but...

no to socialized medicine Wrote:
> It was not a patchwork. It was two different
> forms of government run medicine-one was an
> insurance system and one a clinic. Both were
> awful.

Wait, I meant the problems with Champus. The scheduling issue isn't unique to military care; a buddy was recently complaining about having a private care doc cancel appointments at the last minute *twice* -- and not because he had to do emergency care for someone (yes, he found a new doc!). That's just plain incompetence. Perhaps worse at military facilities, but that's not because it's "socialized", it's because it's poorly run.

> I also have other stories: one child born in
> military hospital with four women and four babies
> in the room 24/7 and the bathroom down the hall.
> Lights on all night because there were no night
> lights in the room. This is what you can expect
> with socialized medicine.

? Sorry, you have not made a logical connection between whatever happened and socialized medicine. I've seen worse in non-military hospitals in this country, anyway. And what you're describing doesn't seem that bad to me -- no private room? So what? It's a hospital, not a hotel.

> Second child born in a city where there were no
> military facilities. CHAMPUS over paid the
> private hospital by $10,000 (this was when that
> was a significant medical cost). I tried to
> complain to Champus but they acted like I was
> asking for more money. A year later, I got a bill
> from the hospital for $10000--even though the bill
> was not that high to start with. Fortunately,
> when I called, the hospital understood what had
> happened and took care of it. Champus had asked
> for its money back from the hospital-finally.

A billing issue, which would not have been your issue with socialized medicine. I think you're arguing the wrong side here..

> As far as Canada, I think if you look at the
> stats, you will find lots more Canadians coming to
> the US for procedures rather than vice versa. It
> may be free, but you wait months for procedures
> that are readily available here.

Of course Americans don't go to Canada for procedures -- American health insurance isn't going to pay for you to go to Canada for a procedure. As for Canadians coming here, that happens occasionally, with folks who have the money to pay and don't want to wait for a non-critical procedure. Again, you're arguing the wrong side here.

The "folks have to wait with socialized medicine" trope is largely BS. Yes, there are things that you wait for up there; that's part of rational allocation. For example, a friend in Ontario was diagnosed with colon cancer. A few days later, he had successful surgery, had a colostomy. Months later, he was pronounced healed; the colostomy was no longer needed. He had to wait a few weeks to have the colostomy removed.

Did that hurt him? No. It meant that someone with a more pressing medical need got their care in a more timely fashion. That's rational.

The opposite occurs here with folks who have private insurance. My sister fell and hurt her shoulder. A week later she went to the doctor, since it still hurt. He examined her and did an X-ray. He couldn't see anything on the X-ray, and said, "Well, either it's a rotator cuff tear, or it's a small fracture that I can't see on the X-ray. If you want, I can send you for an MRI so we can tell which it is. If you don't want the MRI, then either it will get better in a couple of weeks (if it's a fracture) or it won't (if it's a tear). It won't get any worse in either case".

She has good insurance; she got the MRI. It was a tear. Two years later, it's largely healed itself; she hasn't had any further treatment.

Was that good medicine? I say no: it clearly wasn't acute enough to justify the MRI. But because she had good insurance, she had no real incentive NOT to get the MRI done, even though there was no real downside to waiting.

But that kind of thing happens all the time here. With a more rational system, it doesn't.

It's never fun to be told "You have to wait". Nobody denies that. But the alternative is the out-of-control system we have, with spiraling costs and premiums. The trends are clear: something has to change.

ACA isn't a panacea; it's not even a particularly good first try. But it is a step in the right direction -- toward a more rational, sustainable system.

Greybeard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sorry about your hassles. But that wasn't because
> it was government run per se: it was because the
> existing system is a broken patchwork. Had we
> actually had socialized medicine, you wouldn't
> have had any hassles at all.
>
> In Canada, you go to the doc or hospital and they
> treat you. No bills. I spent 17 years there; the
> only bill I ever saw was for a cane rental after I
> buggered my knee playing hockey. That cane rental
> came after an ER visit and several weeks of
> physiotherapy (followed by several more months).
> Nothing out of pocket; not even discussed.
> Eventually I had arthroscopy; again, no bills.
>
> Really hard to complain about something that works
> that well!


It is hard to complain when you just make up some bullshit story that sounds great.

But you left out the reality of how Canadians with money come to the US for health care, or the 6 month waiting list for othropaedic surgery, or the 6 month waiting list for brain surgery.

The dumbest part is if you moron progressives had half a brain cell you could come up with believable lies instead of the this fairy tail bullshit that sounds like a 12 year old is telling the story.

Liberal Logic 35
>
> It is hard to complain when you just make up some
> bullshit story that sounds great.
>
> But you left out the reality of how Canadians with
> money come to the US for health care, or the 6
> month waiting list for othropaedic surgery, or the
> 6 month waiting list for brain surgery.
>
> The dumbest part is if you moron progressives had
> half a brain cell you could come up with
> believable lies instead of the this fairy tail
> bullshit that sounds like a 12 year old is telling
> the story.


typical conservatarded tactic - claim that the other side is "making up bullshit" while making their own bullshit claim that is supported by bullshit. you can't face the reality that SOCIALIZED medicine works and the US healthcare system is a pathetic piece of shit that only serves to create profit for businesses rather than care for its citizens. you sure must love bending over and taking it up the ass for big business.

typical conservatard argument Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> typical conservatarded tactic - claim that the
> other side is "making up bullshit" while making
> their own bullshit claim that is supported by
> bullshit. you can't face the reality that
> SOCIALIZED medicine works and the US healthcare
> system is a pathetic piece of shit that only
> serves to create profit for businesses rather than
> care for its citizens. you sure must love bending
> over and taking it up the ass for big business.

The problem with just making redicilious claims and telling these fake stories is people have the internet. 2 seconds of searching shows them to be false.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/canadian-health-care-in-crisis/

Neurosurgery 24 week wait. Have to wait a month to start cancer treatments, Orthropadeic surgery is a 40 week wait, general surgery is 11.7 weeks ect. Those are average wait times to start to your treatment, so like I said complete bullshit story

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/waiting-your-turn-2013.pdf

http://www.gov.nl.ca/HaveYouHeard/wta.pdf

You a child would claim it free in canada as well, its not. That right there alone shows its just some moron progressive making up bullshit to make people believe thinking everyone else is as stupid as they are.

How about the huffpos take on the canadian system http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/nadeem-esmail/canada-free-health-care_b_3733080.html

"Despite talk of wait times reduction initiatives (backed with substantial funding), Canadians face longer wait times than their counterparts in other developed nations for emergency care, primary care, specialist consultations, and elective surgery. Access to physicians and medical technologies in Canada lags behind many other developed nations."

"Many Canadians and commentators in other countries lauding Canada's government-dominated approach to health care refer to Canadian health care as "free." If health care actually were free, the relatively poor performance of the health care system might not seem all that bad. But the reality is that the Canadian health care system is not free -- in fact, Canadian families pay heavily for healthcare through the tax system. "

Leave adult conversations to adults.

Liberal Logic 35 Wrote:
> It is hard to complain when you just make up some
> bullshit story that sounds great.

"make up"? Lived it, son. Nothing made up.

> But you left out the reality of how Canadians with
> money come to the US for health care, or the 6
> month waiting list for othropaedic surgery, or the
> 6 month waiting list for brain surgery.

Canadians with money coming to the US are still rare. And prove nothing about the efficacy of Canadian healthcare. I've heard of Americans going to Mexico or Brasil for surgery, too -- does that mean US healthcare is a failure?

As for waiting lists, waa -- folks have to wait for non-critical procedures. I had to wait TWO WEEKS for my gallbladder here in Fairfax Count (<== topical relevance!!!) two years ago -- OMG, what an inconvenience THAT was! As I wrote, for urgent procedures, folks don't wait. And let's not forget that the CEO of Molson waits in the same queue as the unemployed laborer. That's a basic premise: fairness.

> The dumbest part is if you moron progressives had
> half a brain cell you could come up with
> believable lies instead of the this fairy tail
> bullshit that sounds like a 12 year old is telling
> the story.

Sorry you don't like hearing true, first-hand experiences, but that doesn't make them "fairy tails" (or even "fairy tales", which is presumably what you meant). If you're happier with Fox News/Tea Party fiction, then I guess all I can say is "Enjoy your fantasy world".

^ Thank you for putting that little turd in his place.

Impossible for me to take someone seriously when they can't even spell ridiculous within the first sentence of their post.

You can just post under one screen name.

Funny how you completely ignored all the problems about the rising out of control cost and substantial taxes.


Those studies make it perfectly clear you wait for everything. 3-6 months just for a CT or MRI in a lot of cases. But you "lived" it so we should just take your word for it and ignore Canadian reports about their health care crisis or the fact it has under a 40 percent approval rating the system is getting so bad.

Let us know when youd actually like to use facts instead of made up stories. Oh right facts and truth are dirty words to progressives like yourself.

^ Not worth rebutting. What an insufferable ass.

CANNUCKS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CANADA's HEALTHCARE IS A JOKE.


Several years ago worked with a guy that was Canadian. He said on more than one occasion that he'd never move back to Canada because the health care system was so bad. He also said that people he knew came to the US for serious health issues because the care in Canada was so poor. And, this guy was a strong liberal and Obama supporter.

A number of years ago, my wife was in Johns Hopkins for some serious medical issues. I spent several days there whle she was in intensive care. While there, I met a guy who was a patient. He was a doctor from Britian. He told me that he had come to Hopkins for cancer surgery because he would have died before he would have received treatment in England. He told me that in general the quality of care n England was very poor if you could even get it. This guy had flown over from England to get treated in the US.

Not certain this was representative of all socialized medicine but certainly suggested that the two countries sited did not have provide adequate care.

LbunT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boo hoo hoo, there's a black man in the White
> House and he isn't serving coffee or doing laundry.

This is what it all boils down to.

Finally... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^ Thank you for putting that little turd in his
> place.

It won't matter. "Liberal Logic 35" is one of the biggest assholes on this board. He regularly gets his worthless ass stuffed for lying through his teeth and other forms of ridiculous fraud. Just a dickless right-wing jerkoff, but he'll continue to beat his meat over nothing at all, cause that's just how fucking dumb he is.

Hmmmmm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Several years ago worked with a guy that was
> Canadian.

Several years ago, I worked with a guy who was a pathological liar. Might have been you, Were you employed in 2010?

Another Assholes Alert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hmmmmm Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Several years ago worked with a guy that was
> > Canadian.
>
> Several years ago, I worked with a guy who was a
> pathological liar. Might have been you, Were you
> employed in 2010?


Nonsequiter!

Cherry-pick much? Wait times for some elective and non-emergency services in Canada are longer than in the US because Canadians have knowingly and deliberately chosen to reduce costs in this way. They could spend more money to reduce wait times -- without actually improving medical outcomes of course -- but they don't want to. They are willing to accept longer wait times in exchange for the fact that fewer than half the number of Canadian adults (15%) as American adults (33%) annually avoids health care for financial reasons, and the fact that the highest costs for virtually every significant procedure in existence are paid by consumers in the United States. If US per capita health care expenditures were at Canadian rates, the savings would eliminate our budget deficits.

Hmmmmm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nonsequiter!

Typical goober language mangling. Meanwhile, your asshat appeal to invented second-hand anecdotal nonsense has clearly marked you as a total asshole. Wear the label proudly! As if you had any other choice...

Another Asshole Alert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hmmmmm Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Nonsequiter!
>
> Typical goober language mangling. Meanwhile, your
> asshat appeal to invented second-hand anecdotal
> nonsense has clearly marked you as a total
> asshole. Wear the label proudly! As if you had
> any other choice...

Ummm, in this case it would be first hand1

No Tip for You Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cherry-pick much? Wait times for some elective
> and non-emergency services in Canada are longer
> than in the US because Canadians have knowingly
> and deliberately chosen to reduce costs in this
> way. They could spend more money to reduce wait
> times -- without actually improving medical
> outcomes of course -- but they don't want to.
> They are willing to accept longer wait times in
> exchange for the fact that fewer than half the
> number of Canadian adults (15%) as American adults
> (33%) annually avoids health care for financial
> reasons, and the fact that the highest costs for
> virtually every significant procedure in existence
> are paid by consumers in the United States. If US
> per capita health care expenditures were at
> Canadian rates, the savings would eliminate our
> budget deficits.

Wait times dont reduce costs it just means you dont have enough doctors. Only is you deny the surgery all together is anything saved. Neurosurgery isnt elective either which has those same wait times, how about cardiac surgery is that elective as well? I suppose waiting a month for chemo is also elective since youre electing to try and fight the cancer?

If youd actually bothered to ever read a real report from Canadas own health organizations you would know its not just elective surgery and wait times are a real concern theyve been trying to address for over a decade.

As a side note knee surgery for a torn acl isnt exactly elective if you want to be able to do anything but sit at a desk.

Hmmmmm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ummm, in this case it would be first hand1

No, spewing made up garbage allegedly reported by a coworker from a few years ago would be second-hand even if it hadn't been a useless load of made-up garbage to begin with.

Liberal Logic 35 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wait times dont reduce costs...

Thank you for so quickly disqualifying yourself as any sort of knowledgeable discussant. Usually proof of your being an ignorant and completely useless asshole takes at least ten words.

By the way, Medicare is a single-payer system with many parallels to Canada's system. What are wait times under Medicare? I ask because many times stupid dumbfucks have no understanding at all of the differences between health care and health care financing.

For those who might be interested, here is what US consumers pay for various common medical procedures,,,

Angiogram -- Most in the developed world
CT scan -- Most in the developed world
MRI -- Most in the developed world
1-day hospital stay -- Most in the developed world
Cataract surgery -- Second most in the developed world (Switzerland)
Vaginal delivery -- Most in the developed world
Appendectomy -- Most in the developed world
C-section -- Most in the developed world
Angioplasty -- Most in the developed world
Hip replacement -- Most in the developed world
Coronary bypass -- Most in the developed world

We absolutely SUCK at this!!!

Source: International Federation of Health Plans, 2012

In well known studies in 1999, 2003, and 2007, the US finished last among 20 or so developed countries in rates of death from amenable causes. Those are deaths that would have been prevented simply through a timely and effective application of standard medical practices.

The latest update in the series was published in August 2012 covering just the US plus France, Germany and the UK. All four countries had made progress in reducuing rates of amenable death seen in earlier studies. The US had made the least amount of progress and still had easily the highest rate among the four.

You don't have to be a doctor to see what's wrong. This is from a 2013 business school analysis seeking to identify the causes of rapidly rising US health care costs. Here's what they found...

We investigate the underlying reasons for rising health care costs in the United States, and theorize about the root causes of the U.S. health care spending phenomenon. Pulling conclusions from multiple studies suggesting price of U.S. health care is simply higher, we take this analysis one step further to explore what economic forces are driving these increases. Through discussion of previous findings in this field while using cross-country comparisons, economic indicators within the U.S. health care industry, and an analysis of U.S. government data on health expenditure, we find many commonly cited supply and demand factors do not provide enough evidence to fully explain the rise of U.S. health care prices. Instead we find the rise in prices to be largely a result of asymmetric information among market participants, the existence of an intermediary insurance market between buyers and sellers of health care, and the effects of delayed cost signals, all contributing to a classic market failure.

Another Asshole Alert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hmmmmm Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ummm, in this case it would be first hand1
>
> No, spewing made up garbage allegedly reported by
> a coworker from a few years ago would be
> second-hand even if it hadn't been a useless load
> of made-up garbage to begin with.

To parapharse somebody..."me thinks the (poster) doth protest too much..."

Good Health Care Hunting Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You don't have to be a doctor to see what's wrong.
> This is from a 2013 business school analysis
> seeking to identify the causes of rapidly rising
> US health care costs. Here's what they found...
>
> We investigate the underlying reasons for rising
> health care costs in the United States, and
> theorize about the root causes of the U.S. health
> care spending phenomenon. Pulling conclusions from
> multiple studies suggesting price of U.S. health
> care is simply higher, we take this analysis one
> step further to explore what economic forces are
> driving these increases. Through discussion of
> previous findings in this field while using
> cross-country comparisons, economic indicators
> within the U.S. health care industry, and an
> analysis of U.S. government data on health
> expenditure, we find many commonly cited supply
> and demand factors do not provide enough evidence
> to fully explain the rise of U.S. health care
> prices. Instead we find the rise in prices to be
> largely a result of asymmetric information among
> market participants, the existence of an
> intermediary insurance market between buyers and
> sellers of health care, and the effects of delayed
> cost signals, all contributing to a classic market
> failure.


this is what happens when Republicans loosen regulations and let businesses and corporations write the laws. insurance companies and suppliers have been reaping record profits at the expense of your everyday American citizen.

I knew it! Those darned sneaky Republicans wrote the AFA!