Can anybody explain why AP exam fees came up on the budget again? A few years ago this issue went to the Attorney General, who ruled that students could not be charged this fee. We all got refunds on the AP fees we paid. I received a huge refund back on my credit card. I believe the reasoning was that the AP exams were required as a part of the courses. They were being used as the final exam. Other years taking the AP exam was optional. If you wanted the college credit, you took the AP exam, and you paid for it. Otherwise, you could just take the final and get a grade for the class that way, but no college credit.

Charging a fee for a final exam conflicted with the state educational laws. This is basic stuff.

Save the space and no whiners about how smart kids don't need these classes and they are elitist and all the other crap. Just answer the question please.

What is specified in your syllabi? Somebody speak up.

I don't think these tests were used as the final exam since the results don't come back until the middle of the summer---so how could the teacher base the final exam grade on them? My kid failed most of them (by that I mean he got 2's and the odd 3) and got A's and B's in the classes so I really don't think they have much to do with the class itself.

I honestly did not see the correlation between the AP exam and the course in at least a couple of his classes. The teachers taught an honors style class without much of a look at what AP wanted. The "Jay Matthews ranking" only counts whether or not you took an AP class and not what was scored on it (kids just sign their names, walk away and get the extra .5 weight and the school gets to count it as a test taken). Check the College Board stats---Fairfax does not come up as an "honors" (I think they actually call it "scholars") system in terms of the scores. Many school districts are way ahead of Fairfax in terms of their scores on these tests, but Fairfax has a higher ratio of kids taking the tests and that's why they get in that top 100 list with Jay Matthews.

AP scores come out in July:

https://apscore.collegeboard.org/scores?-ST=


It's impossible to use them as a final exam score.

Somebody search for "Virginia Attorney General AP Exam fees" and it will come up. January 28th, 2011. Senator Marsden of Burke requested an opinion. The AP exam was required for end of year testing. So, the students can't be charged the fee.

I don't know how to post this. Somebody pull it up and put it out here. There was also an article in the Times, but the opinion is what to post here.

What is in the syllabi? Are the kids required to take the tests?

It really doesn't matter if it is used as a final grade or not. If it is required for the students to take the test, FCPS has to pick up the fee.

I don't believe it is required. I just talked to a student who said that if he doesn't take it, he won't get the weighted .5 for his GPA. That's the only repercussion. He will still get a grade for the class and the credit. Many colleges don't weight the GPA anyway. They look at the course and the course will still say AP Government or AP Calculus on the transcript.

So there is an incentive to take the test, but no requirement.

Also . . . lots of colleges are limiting the number of AP credits they accept or they are only accepting 4's and 5's or just 5's. It depends on the college.

Look at your syllabi. How many of your kids were required to take the AP tests? My kid HAD to take about 10 of them and graduated fairly recently. They really did not have a choice. They HAD to take the AP tests.

Has anybody found the opinion yet? 10-121.

It doesn't matter that each college requires a different level to give credit. We are just talking about who pays the fee. If it is required, the School Board does not have a leg to stand on. If it is optional, then this can be debated further.

When you say your kid HAD to take the test, how can he/she be made to take the test? Will your child fail the course if he/she does not take the test? Do they put a gun to the kid's head?

I do not think that they can make your child take this test. The test does not have anything to do with the course. It really should be optional. The only reason they want your kid to take the test is so that it can be counted in the "Jay Matthews" ranking system and so that Fairfax Schools will come up as a top 100 high school. Most high schools in America could care less about this, but apparently it's a big deal here so your kid HAS TO take the AP test. I have a feeling that nothing would happen if your kid did not show up for the test. If they failed your kid based on that, you would have a lawsuit.

Paying for the AP/IB exams has not always been done in FCPS. In the 1990's students could choose to take the exams or not, and pay the fees if they wanted to take them. When FCPS began the thrust to encourage more participation especially for under-represented minorities, they started to pay the fees and pay for every 10th grader to take the PSATs to predict success. When this started, FCPS was flush. It no longer is flush as evidenced by frozen salaries which are driving many great teachers and administrators to neighboring counties. When the last attempt to have parents pay the fees took place - coupled with sports fees, the VA attorney general decided if the exams HAD to be taken, the district must pay the fees. As reported above, the exam results come in the middle of July, thus the grade for the course has no link to performance on the exams. And about 30% of test takers do not earn a 3 or above - i.e pass. Many teachers and administrators think this is a horrible waste of money. However, we also have to look at the weighted grades. The students do not get their 1 point unless they sit for the exam. Thus, we pay in part for the inflated GPAs students now have with over 100 seniors at many HS getting over a 4.0 average. It would have been a cost savings of up to 4 million for FCPS to not require the tests, have the parents pay for them if they wanted to take them, and give the students the precious 1 point for taking the test. That would have been legal. However, members of the school board felt that it would hurt FRL kids who would have to self-identify to get the reduced fees that ETS charges them.I don't think they realize that they self identify to not pay for class dues and other school fees with no issue. They also thought that it would be too late to get a mechanism in place to collect the fees. Thus, what should be a no-brainer has turned into a social engineering situation. And think of it - the horror of not being in the top 100 of the Jay Mathews list!! Very few school districts around the nation pay for the fees. And more and more schools are not granting credit for the scores unless a 4 or a 5.

FC has it right. The solution should be to give students the extra weight on the GPA and not require the AP test. That way nobody's GPA would be penalized and only those who wanted to take the test would take it. No brainer way to save money. Also the FRM crowd has no problem getting the benefits.

Hi barb!

broken record? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Somebody search for "Virginia Attorney General AP
> Exam fees" and it will come up. January 28th,
> 2011. Senator Marsden of Burke requested an
> opinion. The AP exam was required for end of year
> testing. So, the students can't be charged the
> fee.
>
> I don't know how to post this. Somebody pull it up
> and put it out here. There was also an article in
> the Times, but the opinion is what to post here.
>
> What is in the syllabi? Are the kids required to
> take the tests?
>
> It really doesn't matter if it is used as a final
> grade or not. If it is required for the students
> to take the test, FCPS has to pick up the fee.

Here it is...

http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%20and%20Legal%20Resources/Opinions/2011opns/10-121-Marsden.pdf

Here is the link Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> broken record? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Somebody search for "Virginia Attorney General
> AP
> > Exam fees" and it will come up. January 28th,
> > 2011. Senator Marsden of Burke requested an
> > opinion. The AP exam was required for end of
> year
> > testing. So, the students can't be charged the
> > fee.
> >
> > I don't know how to post this. Somebody pull it
> up
> > and put it out here. There was also an article
> in
> > the Times, but the opinion is what to post
> here.
> >
> > What is in the syllabi? Are the kids required
> to
> > take the tests?
> >
> > It really doesn't matter if it is used as a
> final
> > grade or not. If it is required for the
> students
> > to take the test, FCPS has to pick up the fee.
>
> Here it is...
>
> http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%20and%20Legal%
> 20Resources/Opinions/2011opns/10-121-Marsden.pdf

and here...

FCPS to pay for AP exams
http://www.theoracleonline.org/uncategorized/2011/03/04/fcps-to-pay-for-ap-exams/

Fairfax County Public Schools will be footing the bill for Advanced Placements exams once again after a ruling by the state Attorney General declared the measure illegal.

Last year to compensate for a $203.4 million lack of funds, Superintendent Jack Dale placed a $75 fee per AP test for students. The fees were part of wide effort to raise money for FCPS; over 32 thousand AP tests are administered every year, which ends up costing the county over $2 million.

The measure to raise revenue has been controversial. The not-for-profit organization Collegeboard requires an $87 fee per test to pay for graders and production.

Many school systems in the country, including Los Angeles Unified School District and the New York Department of Education, pay for student AP tests. However, several smaller districts forward the costs to the students.

In Fairfax County, students are required to take the AP tests and will not receive credit for the course, including the 1.0 weight added to their GPA, if they refuse to take the test.

On January 28, Virginia’s Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli II wrote a ruling in which he declared that Fairfax County cannot require students to pay for AP tests. Cuccinelli wrote that powers granted to Fairfax County do not allow it the power to charge students for the exams.

“No statute authorizes a local school board to impose fees for the taking of tests,” wrote Cuccinelli. “Because the Advanced Placement Examination test is the required end-of-course examination, it cannot reasonably be viewed as a service or program for which a fee may be levied.”

Cuccinelli’s decision was based on the powers allocated to Fairfax County and not the actual question of whether students should pay for the tests.

However, the debate on whether these tests, which can be used as full college credits at some schools, should be paid for by the students has seen a variety of opinions.

Because some colleges accept passing AP test scores as credit for classes, some argue that the $75 fee now is miniscule compared to the price of taking a real college class. Others argue that they are such an integral part of the high school curriculum that they should not need to be purchased.

“The thing is that most people don’t take AP exams for the college credit,” said senior Mustafa Mokhtarzada, “most kids take them because they’re trying to get into college, and they look good on transcripts. Fairfax County is such competitive area with so many kids trying to get into good colleges that they need to take [AP exams]. AP tests are a necessity for most kids to get into college, and so I think that they should be part of the public school budget.”

Superintendent Dale is scheduled to meet with the School Board in March to discuss what to do with the collected fees.

It is likely the money will either be returned to the students, or the County will make AP tests optional this year. Although having already paid for the tests, turnout is not expected to go down.

Did anybody actually read Cucinelli's letter?

He says:

"Because the Advanced Placement Examination test is the required end-of-course examination, it
cannot reasonably be viewed as a service or program for which a fee may be levied. This view is
consistent with prior Opinions ofthis Office.9"



The AP exam does not have to be the required end-of-course exam. In fact, it cannot act as the final exam since the scores are not reported until August. Cucinelli appears to have assumed that this AP test was the final exam when he wrote his opinion. If FCPS does not require the AP tests as end-of-course exams, there is no problem with asking the parents to pay the fee.

There is a fee for many classes (such as band). It is $100. I realize that this is an elective course, but many APs are electives as well (Psychology, all of the foreign language AP exams, Art Studio, upper level math that is not required for the diploma, etc.). It seems that, at the very least, those should have always had fees for the tests.

I loved it that my son got 10 AP classes and did not have to pay any test fees. It was in the syllabus that the exam was required.

The issue here is what is in your printed syllabus. Has the requirement to take the tests been officially lifted or not? My son HAD to take the tests or the course was not considered complete. That is why the AG's ruling is correct.

If the requirement to take the tests has been officially lifted and clearly communicated, then they can look at having students pay to take the tests.

dfk;sj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi barb!

My name is not barb.

The FCPS website shows the presentation to prospective high school parents. "Both AP and IB programs have required externally moderated exams."

If this is accurate and current, the AG's opinion applies.


And it is a 1.0 weight for these. 0.5 for Honors. Depending on what you get on the tests, of course.

A couple of interesting perspectives:


http://halfhollowhills.patch.com/groups/schools/p/students-argue-against-costly-ap-exam-requirement



http://www.theranger.org/you-s-a-2013/ap-tests-prove-costly-to-some-schools-1.2829974#.U4IcW2dOXIU

The issues on the table-

1. It appears FCPS requires the AP exam if you take an AP course (same with IB).
2. You can't charge a fee for a mandatory test associated with a course. You also can't charge for textbooks and some other things.
3. Why is FCPS requiring the tests?
4. Can FCPS require the tests? Can there be consequences for students who refuse to take the tests?
5. If FCPS doesn't want to pay the fees for the students taking the tests, then maybe they need to make taking the tests optional and pass the fees on to the students.
6 Why did this come up on the budget for a vote when there was already an AG ruling on this situation? (The original question.)
7. If they don't require the tests, then they need to update the information presented in the high school parent orientation and check the other communications.

FCPS, are you reading this?

This thread was started because of the article in the Post this weekend on the budget. Two school board members wanted to charge fees for the tests.

I think we need another article on this subject.

These issues need to be straightened out once and for all. I would have paid $750 for my son's AP tests. If you have several children......

What other districts do gives you perspective, but this needs to be looked at in relation to the Virginia Code and the FCPS Regulations.

I have one child who scored high on all AP's and started college with 29 credits. The other one--not so much. I wonder if I had to pay for the poor scorer's tests, if I would have pushed more. Grades in the classes were okay.

My child had a full year of college credit --at a competitive school--paid for by FCPS. Paying for the AP tests would still have been quite a deal for a year of college.

I would have happily paid the fees for the tests. But, FCPS made the decision to make the tests mandatory and you can't levy a fee for a [mandatory] test. That is in the AG opinion.
You paid for your child's education. You pay taxes to pay for the schools. They are required to provide appropriate education for gifted children. I sure didn't feel guilty. Yes, my children could have graduated early but who wants to send a 16-year-old to college if you don't have to. There is a lot more maturing required.

Happy Memorial Day to all.

reality Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have one child who scored high on all AP's and
> started college with 29 credits. The other
> one--not so much. I wonder if I had to pay for
> the poor scorer's tests, if I would have pushed
> more. Grades in the classes were okay.
>
> My child had a full year of college credit --at a
> competitive school--paid for by FCPS. Paying for
> the AP tests would still have been quite a deal
> for a year of college.

If you child needs to be seriously pushed to take the AP classes then maybe they just aren't ready. You can do more harm than good being a helicopter parent. Every child is different.

Whoever has Megan McLaughlin for School Board needs to ask why she is "bewildered" about this situation. She actually said she is "bewildered".

Well, honestly, the whole situation is as clear as mud to everyone. But, yes, you would think it would be clearer after this many years and this much debate. The only thing that is clear is that somebody wants these kids to take the tests.

The School Board is ineffective if they can't even get this straight.

It wasn't in the most recent article, but it would make sense if they were trying to make the tests optional again. Maybe there was another article about this. If so, it would have been clearer to include this information in the most recent article.

By making the tests optional, you do create a problem of only those who pay can get the grade weight. One course is not a big deal. If you are taking 5 AP courses that is a large amount of money and can be a deterrent to many. Yes, it is cheaper than taking a college course, but there could be multiple issues with having the huge grade weight tied to money, even if they offer help to those with need.

By getting a thorough sampling of the AP scores you can also assess your course effectiveness.

And yes they drive up the percentage of kids taking AP tests by doing this, with all the political ramifications behind that, but let's leave that out of the decision-making process.

I think the article was incomplete.

The most rational solution would be to take away the grade weight. Many colleges do not use the weighted grades in calculating GPA anyway (especially the high level colleges). Without grade weight, students will take the AP courses for the right reasons---to prepare for college and to possibly get college credit if that is what they want (and that is really not the primary motivating factor for many of these students anyway). If a college wants to add weight to the AP courses when figuring GPA for acceptance purposes, they can (there are all kinds of things they weight to come up with composite scores on students anyway).

Many people will say, hey if you don't weight the course the students who take basket weaving could end up as the valedictorians. To that I would say that we need to get rid of the high school class rankings anyway. There is not an apples to apples situation with people anyway. People should be taking the classes that make sense for them as individuals and for their career planning.

Finally, if you can't afford these AP tests, how are you going to afford college? One course at NOVA (which is only one third the price of Mason) is four times the price of your AP test (and that doesn't even include the books or the gas or the $95 parking fee). Parents who are that poor would be getting the free or mega reduced AP. Seriously.

Sooooooo, the two school board members who proposed this stupid fee live in million dollar homes and have rich husbands.....and their opinion is that $700 in fees would not be burdensome to middle class families.....haha....I bet if they were single moms living off of their $25k school board salary they wouldn't have proposed this.

The AP test costs $89. In order to get to $700, you would have to be taking over 7 AP tests (which is not possible with 7 periods in the day). I would guess that the maximum reasonable number would be 5 so that would be $445 in a year. That is a huge bargain compared to what 15 credits cost at a state university (or even at NOVA). At NOVA 15 credits would run you about $2200. Most kids going to NOVA do not have parents who live in million dollar homes. When did it become unfashionable to save for your kid's education if you are just "middle class"? Maybe you shouldn't be going to Disney World so much.

"Sooooooo, the two school board members who proposed this stupid fee live in million dollar homes and have rich husbands...."


Remember that this proposal passed unanimously . . .

I don't think that public K-12 education includes paying for college . . .

Single moms can probably get the fee waiver if they are poor or maybe they should get the father of the child to chip in. The rest of us get tired of paying for these deadbeat dads. The kid has two parents like all the others . . . right?

yes, but keep in mind that AP classes are college-level. Thus, a college-level class will be much more difficult to succeed in than a regular grade-level class. The grade weight offsets the difficulty of the class so that a gifted AP student does look like a failure with a lower GPA than a loser who only takes regular classes and does fine. The 1.0 grade boost is incentive for students to challenge themselves

Lets just spend all our money on ESOL's and the slowest students - that will pay off in the long run... maybe

"yes, but keep in mind that AP classes are college-level. Thus, a college-level class will be much more difficult to succeed in than a regular grade-level class. The grade weight offsets the difficulty of the class so that a gifted AP student does look like a failure with a lower GPA than a loser who only takes regular classes and does fine. The 1.0 grade boost is incentive for students to challenge themselves"


A gifted AP student will not look like a failure if the transcript shows the course level taken. The colleges care about rigor of courses taken. Also, students who are serious about education will want challenging classes. If a student is only motivated by the 1.0 GPA boost, then maybe the student should not be in the course.

"Lets just spend all our money on ESOL's and the slowest students - that will pay off in the long run... maybe"

What are ESOL's? Do you mean immigrants who need to learn English? If so, ESOL is federally mandated since it is an appropriate education for those students. I think having them learn English will in fact pay off in the long run---big time.

are you kidding? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Lets just spend all our money on ESOL's and the
> slowest students - that will pay off in the long
> run... maybe"
>
> What are ESOL's? Do you mean immigrants who need
> to learn English? If so, ESOL is federally
> mandated since it is an appropriate education for
> those students. I think having them learn English
> will in fact pay off in the long run---big time.
About Secondary ESOL

The Secondary ESOL curriculum is a scaffolded content based curriculum that fully aligns to the essential understandings, knowledge and skills of the grade level Standards of Learning. The curriculum is designed to support English Learners by providing context, building background knowledge and vocabulary, and fostering the academic discourse of English, Mathematics, Science and Social Studies so that students may successfully navigate rigorous academic content.

Secondary ESOL instruction provides English Learners with a language focused environment to develop the academic language necessary to demonstrate complex thinking and learning across the disciplines. Students learn to recognize and use language explicit to the task in the four domains of reading, writing, speaking and listening through engaging interactions with teachers and peers.

ESOL course selection is based upon the English Language Proficiency Level of the individual student. Information regarding individual courses can be found at the Program of Studies and Course Offerings link.

Middle School: Program of Studies & Course Offerings
High School: Program of Studies & Course Offerings

Yes it caters to the no-speaks. If we dont have enough doctors and engineers the no-speaks will leave to mow lawns and cook fast food in a country that has doctors and engineers.

Lots of those doctors and engineers were once no-speaks. Look around at who they are.