Who wants to guess how many million the wrongful death suit will net against the county?

By Tom Jackman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, January 26, 2006; A01

Fairfax County's police chief said yesterday that one of his officers accidentally shot and killed an optometrist outside the unarmed man's townhouse Tuesday night as an undercover detective was about to arrest him on suspicion of gambling on sports.

Police had been secretly making bets with Salvatore J. Culosi Jr., 37, since October as part of a gambling investigation, according to court records. They planned to search his home in the Fair Oaks area, just off Lee Highway, shortly after 9:30 p.m.

Culosi came out of his townhouse on Cavalier Landing Court about 9:35 p.m. and was standing next to the detective's sport-utility vehicle, police said, when the detective gave a signal to tactical officers assembled nearby to move in and arrest Culosi.

"As they approached him . . . one officer's weapon, a handgun, was unintentionally discharged," said Fairfax Police Chief David M. Rohrer.

Culosi was not making any threatening moves when he was shot once in the upper part of his body, police said. He was taken to Inova Fairfax Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

The last fatal police shooting in Fairfax was in September 2000, when an officer killed a man threatening him with a woodcutting tool.

"On behalf of the Fairfax County Police Department and myself, I wish to express our condolences and our sincere sympathy to Mr. Culosi's family and friends," Rohrer said. He declined to answer questions after making the statement.

Police departments generally do not accept responsibility for an officer-involved shooting before an investigation is completed.

Culosi's family in Annandale was grief-stricken and declined to be interviewed. Culosi's older sister, Constance Culosi Gulley, issued a statement saying that her brother was "a respected local businessman and doctor with his whole life ahead of him and didn't deserve to have his life end this way."

Culosi grew up just off Annandale Road, graduated from Bishop O'Connell High School and the University of Virginia, then attended the Southern College of Optometry in Memphis and became a doctor of optometry. He opened practices in Manassas and Warrenton that are attached to Wal-Mart stores.

The officer, a 17-year veteran assigned to the police tactical unit, was not identified. He was placed on leave with pay while police conduct both an internal administrative investigation and a criminal investigation. Rohrer also expressed support for the officer, calling him a valued veteran of the department.

Lt. Richard Perez, a police spokesman, said he could not say how or why the gun discharged.

"When you draw the weapon, you always try to assess what the potential threat is going to be," Perez said. He said the officers in the tactical squad are "highly trained officers. Do unintentional shootings occur? Absolutely. We're humans, and these kind of things do occur."

Perez said he did not know what type of handgun Culosi was shot with.

After several years without any shootings, officers shot and wounded several people last year, including one of their own officers in an accidental shooting. A robbery suspect was shot this month on Route 1. In the nearly 39 years that Robert F. Horan Jr. has been the chief prosecutor in Fairfax, no officer has been charged with improperly shooting someone.

Rohrer said in his statement that the tactical squad routinely performs arrests and provides support for detectives executing search warrants. The chief said in his statement that "we will fully review, as always, our policies, practices and this operation in detail."

Culosi's family said that "police action that results in the death of an unarmed, nonthreatening person calls for a full and open investigation. We hope proper steps are taken by county police to ensure other families won't have to endure similar pain."

Culosi was a lifelong Pittsburgh Steelers fan, longtime friend Steve Lunceford said. Culosi excelled at soccer, playing on travel teams as a youth and for the O'Connell varsity. He was not married and had no children.

"He was gregarious, outgoing, loved to sing off-key at weddings," Lunceford said. "For this to happen, it's surreal. The police need to account for and be held accountable for their actions."

Deon Chapman said he became a casual friend of Culosi's after meeting him at a pool tournament at a Fairfax bar about 10 years ago. "He was a laid-back guy, funny guy. . . . I've never known him to even carry a pocketknife. This is a college boy, clean-cut." He also said he had no idea that Culosi might have been a bookie.

In an affidavit for the search warrant, Detective David J. Baucom, who often investigates sports gambling in Fairfax, said he met Culosi at a bar in October and started making NFL bets with him by cell phone. Baucom said he placed more than $28,000 in bets on games through last Sunday and met Culosi about every two weeks to pay his debts or collect his winnings, either at a restaurant or Culosi's home. Through Jan. 16, Baucom had lost more than $5,500 to Culosi, his affidavit stated.

Lt. Steve Thompson, Baucom's supervisor in the police organized crime division, said in a recent interview that there is no shortage of sports bookies in Fairfax and that police investigate only those who meet certain criteria. He said that Fairfax typically goes after only those bookies with many customers who take in $100,000 in bets per week and that larger bookies will take in $300,000 to $400,000 on a busy football weekend.

Last month, another investigation headed by Baucom resulted in the arrest of a man suspected of being a bookie who lives in Washington but operated in Fairfax. When police searched his safe deposit boxes, they seized nearly $350,000 in cash, court records show. Charges against that man are pending.

After shooting Culosi, police searched his townhouse. The results of that search were not available yesterday.

Perez said Culosi had not displayed a weapon or shown any violent tendencies while he was being investigated by Baucom. But Perez said police had to be prepared for any possibility, because "the unexpected can occur."

dont worry, they are all highly qualified to use guns. it was probably just the psychic cop who "saw" that the guy was going to shoot everyone or perhaps blow himself up jihad style. :)


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

where are our cop-lovers today? you know, the ones that tell us to shut the fuck up and let the police do their job and that since most don't abuse their power we should ignore the fact that some do.

while this guy shouldnt have been killed, i dont think anyone is really going to miss him.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

While this clearly was an accident, my question is are undercover and tactical units best utilized on a sports betting scheme? We're obviously not getting all the details here and maybe this guy was a major bookie or something but come on. If you go a few hours north or Atlantic City this isn't even a crime or any Indian Casino all over the damn place not to mention the entire state of Nevada. What a about all the online casinos based on Indian reservations or in the Bahamas that net millions out of the states and I'm sure this very jurisdiction?

A sports book is ALWAYS missed by SOMEONE. A good bookie is hard to find.

stinkypoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> where are our cop-lovers today? you know, the
> ones that tell us to shut the fuck up and let the
> police do their job and that since most don't
> abuse their power we should ignore the fact that
> some do.


OK, shut the fuck up and let the police do their job...happy, asshole?

I for one am not criticizing the police here, I know that shit happens and it happens more in some professions than others. I have seriously thought about going into law enforcement myself a few times. My main question is do the fat cats that make the decisions on what to expend the resources on really have the best thing in mind? The average beat cop is a good man but has no power over where he is assigned and told what to do. He may hate it but that's his job so he does it. That very well may have been the case for this officer. I agree we shouldn't always be so tough on the cops. They get a bad rap because they give average citizens a speeding ticket or drunk in public (insert random infraction/misdemeanor here). Yet they also deal with all the drugged out crime hardened assholes day in and day out. It's just business. Just my 2 cents.

Sounds like an accident to me. Of course, FFX will end up paying something for wrongful death.

Well then it's OK if it's an accident, b/c taking down an unarmed suspect of victimless crimes is paramount.

"Sounds like an accident to me"

How can any one support the police for somthing like this you would have to be very biased if your a cop lover.... If this guy got killed by accident than any one who gets pulled over in a "traffic stop" is at risk of getting shot by a cop.

"OK, shut the fuck up and let the police do their job...happy, asshole?"

Whats their job write bullshit tickets, sleep in their cars and shoot citizens that are unarmed.

now what will you say cop lovers let them do their jobs

let them do their jobs

let them do their jobs

blaa blaa blaa blaa

you shut the fuck up!

"unarmed suspect of victimless crimes"

The PC term is consensual crime, because we don't want to make it sound like there are no victims no do we?

Clearing up some things:

"While this clearly was an accident, my question is are undercover and tactical units best utilized on a sports betting scheme? We're obviously not getting all the details here and maybe this guy was a major bookie or something but come on. If you go a few hours north or Atlantic City this isn't even a crime or any Indian Casino all over the damn place not to mention the entire state of Nevada. What a about all the online casinos based on Indian reservations or in the Bahamas that net millions out of the states and I'm sure this very jurisdiction?"

-Tactical units serve high profile warrants, and because they work with the Sheriff's Office, they were called in to serve this one. It's not as though the tactical units actually do the undercover work - that's mainly for the detectives.

"dont worry, they are all highly qualified to use guns. it was probably just the psychic cop who "saw" that the guy was going to shoot everyone or perhaps blow himself up jihad style. :)"

-We simply don't know what happened, and we can't just assume the officer intentionally discharged his firearm. Perhaps he thought he saw the suspect reach for something, such as a weapon. These guys are worried about their own lives, too - even under the best training, accidents do happen under stress.


"How can any one support the police for somthing like this you would have to be very biased if your a cop lover.... If this guy got killed by accident than any one who gets pulled over in a "traffic stop" is at risk of getting shot by a cop."

- Well, simply, no. Law enforcement is established in order to protect the citizens, not to hurt them. You have to remember that they are normal people and want to serve our community.

Hope I shed some light on the topic.

(no name),
  in case there was any doubt, my comment was a joke.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Accidents happen at my job BUT NO NONE GETS SHOT OR KILLED BECAUSE OF IT! You'd think that if someone is ill equipped mentally, emotionally (or whatever) to tote a gun, they shouldn't be in that line of work. Get the fucking idiot cop a job at walmart so he can accidently overcharge someone - since the idiot is obviously "accident prone"!

I don't dislike cops in general but situations like this certainly discredit their value.

Hey until you walk a mile in their boots, shut the fuck up and dont try and analyze their job. You have never had to call on the police to help you? Maybe when someone is trying to break into your nice SUV or someone walked into your cubicle and stole your laptop, who do you call..

Take a look at what goes on in the world and when shit goes bad who gets called... you? why you so you can program a computer program, or analyze some data.. no so you have no idea what cops do or what they have seen or what they have done to get to where they are!

Why dont you look at what some men and women have sacrificed to save citizens like you and me and instead of second guessing what someone did in a split second in which there was no one there but two people dont accuse someone of being "accident prone"!

http://www.odmp.org/index.php

The world is simple.. obey the laws, live a normal life, think before you do something and dont fuck up! you will be fine and you will stay out of trouble!

maybe you should be a victim of a fatal "accident". I didn't choose law enforcement because I didn't want it. It's a damn shame that people like you go out of your way to justify (hence encourage it) when shit like this happens. Do the police scare me? You'd better fucking believe it because they're not the smartest kids on the block or they wouldn't be in that line of work in the first place. Scarier than that is the fact that you don't know which of them are trigger happy, believing they can get away with nearly anything because of people like you feeding their egos.

Walk in their boots? No thanks ... BUT you can't judge me or my comments without having walked in my boots either.

Paper Pusher,
Thats the stupidest shit I have ever heard! Police Officers are for the most part college educated or have impressive military expeirence. I am aware of several FCPD officers with Ivy league degrees, and many others with masters, JD and Phds. The bottome line is law enforcement is a career CHOICE not a last resort. the job takes a wide variety of skills and knoweldge the average person does not possess. Furthermore, this particular incident is a tragedy and the department has already acknowldged that. Unforunately shit happens, and it happens real fast in the law enforcement world. This is an isolated incident and by no way indicative of the department or the profession as a whole.

really? why is it that you sound so much like the previous anonymous poster? Glad you have police buddies with whom you share background information. For an ivy league graduate to accept a position as a patrol cop is evidence in itself as to the lack of smarts within the ranks. I can accept the military experience since becoming a cop is a logical next step for the MPs and the MPs I knew during my military time looked forward to accepting this sort of job once their military time was over.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that intelligent, educated, normal people wish to serve the community? Law enforcement is a noble profession and as evedinced by this board often misunderstood. You could call a cop every name in the book, complain on him/her and I bet you they would be there in your moment of need. How is that a lack of smarts within the ranks? You are not articulating your point well and I think you are way off topic. The topic is the tragic/accidental death of a suspect. He did not deserve to die and no one seems to be arguing that. The police by no means are above criticism either, but I think if you live in any other area of the country you will quickly realize what an asset FCPD truly is.

Patrol cops with JDs, Ph.D.s or ivy league degrees, if they exist, are certainly the exception. With the FCPD only requiring a GED, http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/police4a.htm anyone with these qualifications you speak of who wished to go into law enforcement would undoubtedly be drawn to the higher pay, benefits, and prestige of the numerous federal law enforcement agencies in the area. That leaves the idiots and bullies from HS to fill the ranks of the FCPD.

Perhaps there are just some people out there attracted to the profession, irregardless of the pay and/or benefits? I happen to know for a fact at least a couple current or former FCPD officers and one VSP trooper who had decent careers playing in the NFL prior to becoming a police officer. I also know one FCPD officer who played professional baseball as well. These are examples of people who are probably fairly financially secure but choose to do the job because they wanted to, not because they needed to.

The topic is the fact that someone was shot and killed due to the lack of care taken by a cop. How is it that my questioning the abilities of some in the police force be deemed "off topic"? My articulation of my point is quite well taken or you wouldn't be understanding my point. Yes, I find it quite hard to believe that an ivy league graduate would want to become a county cop. Mad Max makes a valid point about the federal police with the pay, benefits and prestige but Jim, Elliot, and the rest of the anonymous posters are trying to find support for and elevate the county cop ranks.

Would I call them if necessary? Yes, I have and I will again if the need arises. I expect them to be there to protect ... THAT'S THEIR JOB. I will be extremely careful so that they will have no need to have their weapons pointed my way.

Well as A fed I can tell you FCPD has more officer with Grad and post grad deg. As for the higher paying fed jobs, well a 17 year vet with fcpd with ot and incentives is makiing a lot more than top fed agents.. FBI and most fed agents do not get ot. This was a terrible incident, and I commend FCP for quickly admitting and telling the truth

why is it that all the pro-cop postings are anonymous and contain the same level of typos/misspellings?

As a grad student myself for over a year I have yet to meet a cop - county or otherwise. Care to explain that away?

Paper Pusher,
Clearly we are going to have to agree to disagree. However I would like to make several points. First of all, education does not necessarily equate to intelligence. Second, police officers do not walk aroun IDing themselves off duty, because that is a serious liability, therefore you probably would not know if they were in a class. I can assure you there is not a law enforcement conspiracy to oppress anyone, much less the likes of you or mad max jd. They just want to be sagfe and get their job done.

Disagreeing is fine - I find myself in that position often. You act as if you know the mental outlook of each and every law enforcer out there. Certainly in public it wouldn't make sense to go around saying "I'm a cop", but in a classroom setting the need to remain clandestine is minimized. Also, unless you are in a leadership position with the police force, there is no way you can assure me of anything related to the MO of the police force.

elliot,
  whoa, whoa, whoa! back up there cowboy. while you didnt explicitly say the cop should loose their job, it kinda sounds like you are saying/thinking that. if i were to accidently destroy a database that thousands of people use and for some reason there are no backups, you would be fired in a second. lets say you just took production down for two weeks, you are still fired. sometimes there are no second chances and killing someone is one of those.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

time to get a lawyer and sue the pants of those FCPD muth@fukkez

I really wish police officers could read or write so that they could get involved in this fascinating discussion and add to it.

Oh well.

RESton Peace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really wish police officers could read or write
> so that they could get involved in this
> fascinating discussion and add to it.
>
> Oh well.

hahahahahah nice

elliot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paper Pusher,
> Thats the stupidest shit I have ever heard! Police
> Officers are for the most part college educated or
> have impressive military expeirence. I am aware of
> several FCPD officers with Ivy league degrees, and
> many others with masters, JD and Phds. The bottome
> line is law enforcement is a career CHOICE not a
> last resort. the job takes a wide variety of
> skills and knoweldge the average person does not
> possess. Furthermore, this particular incident is
> a tragedy and the department has already
> acknowldged that. Unforunately shit happens, and
> it happens real fast in the law enforcement world.
> This is an isolated incident and by no way
> indicative of the department or the profession as
> a whole.


Hahahahaha, since it takes a masters or a PHD to write traffic tickets and all.

Most DO have a degree in criminology, because after years of writing tickets, they may get to do real police work and would need some educational guidance to get the job done.

That being said, Dexter Manley graduated college and could not read, so who is to say some of the po-po out there hasn't been floated the same way.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n12_v44/ai_8010811

Cops can't read and they are not that smart, every cop that wrote me a ticket has spelled my name wrong looking at my id. The most stupid cop I came across wrote on the ticket I was driving a 2D (Two Door) car when I was driving a four door. I just hate cops and I do not support them, a cop is what the bullies in high school grow up to be, tough, unfair and not that smart.

I agree with Feddog, alot of PD's are so shady that if this happened in their department, they would of not told ANYONE and probely would of just lied about the whole thing and said the guy shot at them first to justify his killing. The FCPD came right out and told the truth, now that is integrity.

I agree, plus the guy was a criminal who deserved nothing better than summary justice and immediate execution for a non-capital crime.

i think it was one of those "too many people involved, there will be a whistleblower" situations where they didnt have a choice to tell the truth lest a group of cops get axed. im hoping that whoever shot is fired. any news on that? which cop did the shooting? i dont think they mentioned that part.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

"the unexpected can occur"
wtf? the unexpected can occur my ass.

this is fairfax, unexpected shit never happens here.

i hate the fairfax cops, dumb ass mother fuckers.

and they searched culosi's townhouse right after they shot him? thats crossing the line.
way over board.

dam i hate the stupid fairfax police.

BBC article which describes concerns about increased use of SWAT teams, using this case as an example.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4803570.stm

PaperPusher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Certainly in public it wouldn't make sense to go
> around saying "I'm a cop", but in a classroom
> setting the need to remain clandestine is
> minimized.

Not necessarily. On this board alone there are enough people posting their "I hate all cops" messages -- who knows what they are capable of doing?

Let's replace the words "all cops" in that statement with "PaperPusher", making it read "I hate PaperPusher". Now we have a bunch of anonymous people saying that they hate PaperPusher.

While you're sitting in class meeting your new classmates, would you tell them all that you were PaperPusher? Most of the people you meet will likely not fit into the "I hate PaperPusher" crowd, but what if some of them did? What if at least one of them had a run-in with somebody named PaperPusher recently and decided that was the last time he/she would allow it to happen. So now this person has met you, you casually mention you are PaperPusher and the person snaps. Suddenly your life is in danger, simply because you are also named PaperPusher. You've never met this person before, but for some reason they want to kill you. That's why cops don't say that they are cops outside of work -- for that off chance that they meet this person.

What makes this theoretical classroom any different than being in public?

Um, I'm hardly "anonymous". Everyone on this board knows my full name and how to find my address.

So I say: fuck cops, all of them should be slaughtered. But it should be LEGAL, and SAFE.

Cm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's replace the words "all cops" in that
> statement with "PaperPusher", making it read "I
> hate PaperPusher". Now we have a bunch of
> anonymous people saying that they hate
> PaperPusher.
>
>
> What makes this theoretical classroom any
> different than being in public?

I wasn't aware PaperPusher was on a SWAT team that killed a guy just for enjoying gambling... wow, if that is the case then the theoretical classroom analogy is totally valid. At first I thought "No, people wouldn't really have a reason to dislike PaperPusher, at least not the same reasons they would dislike police, for reasons like accidental shootings" but I guess you are right if PaperPusher is a SWAT team member, or perhaps a member of some other public servant class of people.

Maybe the police need to subpeona drug stores for buyers of dopamine agonists so they can find some more of these dangerous guys and send SWAT teams to their houses.

You're missing the point entirely. Obviously you misread what I wrote, as you are confusing "cop" with "SWAT team member that killed a guy". I wasn't comparing PaperPusher to the actual officer that shot the suspect, but cops in general, in answer to his statement about being clandestine about being a cop in a classroom environment.

Besides, you're taking a single incident where a SWAT team member accidentally shot and killed a suspect, and implying that all SWAT team members are intent on cleansing the earth of gamblers one-by-one.

at last, we (NOVA) have claimed our rightful thrown of international notoriety!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Cm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Besides, you're taking a single incident where a
> SWAT team member accidentally shot and killed a
> suspect, and implying that all SWAT team members
> are intent on cleansing the earth of gamblers
> one-by-one.


Eh, not really. I don't think there is any correlation between gamblers and SWAT teams and I don't think I stated that. But I DO think, as the article I posted seemed to indicate, that police departments seem to be looking for excuses to send out SWAT teams. This guy didn't need ten or fifteen guns aimed at him.

This is just like the David Koresh story... two cops in a police cruiser could have hauled him in while he jogged or shopped in town. But no, they had to be all macho and raid his compound where all his followers and their guns were. Then they had to gas and kill all the occupants to end it. Bigger shows of force than are necessary can end up in escallations and tragedy, just like Waco and like the doctor who liked to gamble.

^^ so true brother right on

so guess what? the swat guy that shot the optometrist is off the hook. no joke, he has been completely cleared of any wrongdoing! insane.

i just found this report on the fcpd site:

Illegal Betting Is Not Worth the Risk

in it, it says, "Those who are involved in these illegal activities can be assured of one thing: the police will investigate these crimes and make arrests." but they fail to mention, "and there is a good chance we'll cap your ass."

oh my... what a poor choice of words on their behalf.

oh and here is the official report about the cop killing the optometrist: Police Shooting


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2006 04:44PM by Gravis.

Well cited Gravis, except you failed to truly quote the reort in any way to support your idea that the gestapo county police want to assasinate wrong-doers commiting victimless crime:

The Organized Crime and Narcotics Division usually targets sports
betting organizations run by two or more people working in concert
who use the proceeds from illegal activity to support their
lifestyles. Members of illegal gambling enterprises are often associated
with money laundering, tax evasion, theft, drug offenses, weapons
violations, robbery, assaults and homicide.

Those all seem rather victimless to me.


In January of 2004, a man murdered a 32-year-old woman and her
22-month-old daughter in their Falls Church-area home. Dinh Pham
was charged with murder after police found him at a racetrack and
gambling facility in Maryland.

Again, though his attorney argues Dinh had some other reason for burglarizing and murdering these victims (he apparantly couldn't pay his rent/mortgage), Horan used gambling debt as Dinh's most apparaent motive. I'm sure the down-on-his-luck executioner had an excelent reason to be back at the race track. Maybe he was hoping to earn next month's rent and perhaps buy a lollypop for some homeless drwarf aflicted with halitosis and Treacher-Collins syndrome living in Afganistan. Let's chalk the actions of this "Samaratan" up to victimless as well.

On February 8, Fairfax County police arrested eight members of a supected
organized crime family and their organization for crimes ranging from loan
sharking and illegal Internet gambling to narcotic distribution and
extortion.

I'm sure these fine, upstanding citizens were providing a "victimless" service. I mean after all, who's ever heard of anyone in organized crime commiting any act of theft or violence?



I'll gladly admit to two things:

1: Gambling in and of itself does not promote violence and, in fact, is a reasonable pass-time for some people who can control themselves. Hell, I have two NCAA brackets in the running for big money as I type this. The bottom line though is this: experience has taught the police that other, more dangerous activities are often being committed by persons who run betting operations. Do you really think it's in the best interest of a police officer's family to have officers assume all that is going on in any given case is what is apparent from looking at it from the outside? If the police had found bomb making materials and blueprints of your home in this guy's house would you view this case in a different light?

2: The police officer made a grave, stupid, wreckless mistake. For him to be charged with homicide for an error, though, would have been ridiculous. Maybe people believe something more severe should happen to him in his career (and I wouldn't be far from that camp), but to ruin his life by putting a police officer in jail for at least 10 years with the very thugs he's taken off our streets would be just as wreckless by us as citizens.

I've read people's fears about being shot while pulled over and I have to laugh. Please resolve my ignorance and give me the details of the last time that has happened here in Fairfax. If it is a common occurence, I'll be right with you in picketting the Government Center in an attempt to make our officers carry only whistles and night-sticks.

Break the law with discretion. Try not to do anything that will have the SWAT team breaking in a door with a search warrant and I'm sure you won't end up dead with a police issued bullet hole in your body.

Piñata Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Break the law with discretion. Try not to do
> anything that will have the SWAT team breaking in
> a door with a search warrant and I'm sure you
> won't end up dead with a police issued bullet hole
> in your body.

The problem is the definition of what constitutes getting a SWAT team delivered to your house seems to be changing as time goes on... in ten years, failing to return a library book on time will get the gang at your place, all in the name of reducing the chance of a violent confrontation with a large show of force.

"In Virginia, gambling is illegal when someone other than the gambler, such as a gambling operator, makes a profit."


You learn something new every day. Where are my dice.

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> The problem is the definition of what constitutes
> getting a SWAT team delivered to your house seems
> to be changing as time goes on... in ten years,
> failing to return a library book on time will get
> the gang at your place, all in the name of
> reducing the chance of a violent confrontation
> with a large show of force.


If statistics proove people who fail to return library books are more prone to violent acts then why not reduce the chance of violence by escalating force beyond the control of the combatant?

How many instances of accidental discharge due to stupidity and/or wrecklessness have you heard about in other instances of Fairfax SWAT serving "routine search warrants". A couple come to mind (a few years ago I read about a warrant being served and the subject was accidently shot while laying in his bed... he survived and the county paid him a boat-load to settle the civil suit), but I am pretty sure the SWAT team executes these orders on a regular basis. I find it interesting that when something goes tragically wrong everyone jumps on the "Cops are going to shoot me for no reason" band wagon. There probably should be a revision of the rules by which these scenarios operate, but to say SWAT team should not be utilized in potentially deadly situations is a leap I refse to make.

I just found this website in today's Washington Post:

www.justiceforsal.com

Look, Fairfax made the BBC too over this shit...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4803570.stm

Piñata Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I find it interesting
> that when something goes tragically wrong everyone
> jumps on the "Cops are going to shoot me for no
> reason" band wagon. There probably should be a
> revision of the rules by which these scenarios
> operate, but to say SWAT team should not be
> utilized in potentially deadly situations is a
> leap I refse to make.

So worrying that one will get shot for no reason by the police, right after someone gets shot for no reason by the police, is wrong? Interesting. I think SWAT teams should be used in potentially deadly situation, but EVERY situation can be potentially deadly! Sending a SWAT team to the house of a doctor with NO prior criminal record who was suspected of gambling is not reason enough.

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So worrying that one will get shot for no reason
> by the police, right after someone gets shot for
> no reason by the police, is wrong? Interesting.
> I think SWAT teams should be used in potentially
> deadly situation, but EVERY situation can be
> potentially deadly! Sending a SWAT team to the
> house of a doctor with NO prior criminal record
> who was suspected of gambling is not reason
> enough.

First of all (possibly just a semantics issue), the good doctor wasn't suspected of gambling; he was suspected of running a gambling operation. There is a big difference there as well as a much higher possibility of violence.

All I'm saying is that these occurrences are few and far between. I'm no statistician but I'd like to compare the odds of being shot by the Fairfax County SWAT team because you are breaking a crime where potential violoence/theivery/and or drug use and dealing is occuring compared to say , I don't know, getting struck by lightning in the county. I do know I'm still going to walkoutside during a thunderstorm if need be and I do know the odds of being killed while in a car are far greater. So, since we are using conjecture as fact in this forum to make our points ( "...in ten years, failing to return a library book on time will get the gang at your place..."). I'll add that in ten years the county/state/governing body will outlaw motor vehicle transportation in defense of it's citizen's lives.

That may have been a little out of context and off the point but the idea I'm trying to convey is that we have no proof the specific episodes in which SWAT teams are utilized have been ammended to encourage more instances of trigger happy misfires. I'm an ardent believer in fact and just find it hard to jump to a conclusion that backs up an obvious annoyance with police in general. Sure I get annoyed with them when they pull me over and write a ticket, but I also know that because they're out there running radar (and serving search warrants on violent and potentially violent criminals) not only am I slowing down (not breaking the law) but I have to figure it's probably affecting other peoples actions as well.

Once the SWAT team shows up in force to work my fender bender accident and I have a 9mm shoved in my face demanding my insurance information, I'll agree things have gotten out of control.

It was an accident. A terrible, senseless one, but an accident. And I think Fairfax County will need to settle with the family because it is 100% the cop's fault.

... but they let him off the hook COMPLETELY! last time i checked, accidently killing someone is called MANSLAUGHTER! really, if just once in my life i accidently run over a person with my car it's considered even worse! seriously, he should at the VERY least get two to five. lame... fucking lame.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Not to worry Gravis... nothing is spinning out of control. kumbaya kumbaya

if they let him off for killing a guy, i should be able to get away with killing anyone by being wreckless......

i thought we were suppose to hold the police to a higher standard and a higher level of accountablility than the common folk

the system rarely punishes part of itself unless it is left with absolutely no alternative. which means cops dont bust cops, cops dont bust judges, judges dont bust judges, and judges dont bust cops. you love it, dont you.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

As expected because this is a law enforcement officer, no charges will be filed. Didn't even give it to a grand jury.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/24/AR2006032401687.html

I don't think Robert F. Horan Jr. is in the decision tree for the IHOP shooter so hopefully we'll at least see input from outside the law enforcement fold on that one.

gah... seriously, we should start printing that article and posting it places... or perhaps handing them out. it would at the very least alert people of the insanity going on and perhaps make the procecuter nervous about just cutting the guy loose.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

As update alleging a coverup in this case:

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=757097

Also no news on the Aaron Brown killing... I guess police officials in cooperation with county prosecuters just hope people forget about these things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2006 11:17AM by pgens.

that's fucked up... they didnt want the family to know he was in the hospital in case he died?! someone needs to go down for this bullshit!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

yeah fucking fa real..............

also ironically the police are holding national crime victims week and holding a vigil and shit I think its at the government center roffle cakes to what happenes when the families of these innocent people murdered by police show up

it took me a bit to decode the message above... here it is:

also, ironically, the police are holding national crime victims week and a vigil. I think its at the government center. It will be hilarious to see/hear to what happens when the families of these innocent people (murdered by police) show up.

dammit people, using the internet does not mean you have to vomit what you are trying to say!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2006 01:51PM by Gravis.

Kill the niggers

The incompetence is not limited to the schools.

We had Amanda Perry, whose reckless driving on her way to break up a fight resulted in the death of a popular teacher. Perry was placed on desk duty, finally fired when she was caught faking her hours.

We had Weiss Rasool, who used police databases to look up information on terrorism investigations and pass them to the suspects. He was convicted of a misdemeanor, left the police, and now works for the IRS.

We appear to have code compliance fielding calls about trash pickup (not their job), and at least one of their inspectors is on the take.

Time to CLEAN HOUSE in Fairfax.