Interesting that Falls Church has one of the highest drop-out rates in the county and Falls Church has one of the highest median home rates.

24th out 25.

24. Falls Church 19 20 Median Home Value 740k

Chart Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do you read the chart? Why do you say Madison
> is underperforming if it is Number 3?

It will be easier if you go back to the original chart. Madison has the third lowest percentage of ESL/FRR students in the county, but was #6 on a blended average of academic performance criteria and #8 in the county in the percentage of students dropping out over a 4-year period.

To take another example, Fairfax has the 15th lowest percentage of ESL/FRR students, but was #16 on the blended average of performance tests and had the #5 lowest drop-out rate.

That's all. Some of us enjoy crunching numbers and looking for trends and outliers. Ignore it if you wish.

exactly the point Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > The 80K difference between Oakton and South Lakes sums up the difference in the schools. The reality is that people pay for good schools, and paying 100K or so extra to get into Oakton rather than SL is worth it for many parents. The problem arises when after paid a the extra 100K to get into Oakton, the School Board says that you have to go to South Lakes. That a huge loss for all these areas. It is easy for Reston who are not losing any money. For these RD areas a large percent of their equity in their houses is wiped off.< <

This post reminds me of the fable of the rooster who claimed credit for summoning the sun to rise every morning.

You have the causation and the effect reversed.

False Name Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Median Home Values per school
>
> 430k Chantilly
> 475k Burke
> 474k Annadale
> 580k Reston
> 660k Oakton
> 740k Falls Church
> 863k Mclean

And the source for these interesting numbers is what exactly?

Chart Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do you read the chart? Why do you say Madison
> is underperforming if it is Number 3?
>

Madison is ranked #3 in lowest combined ESL/FRR percentages, but has a blended academic rank of #6, and #8 in lowest drop-out rate.

Stats Man

Love your work. Very informative. Interesting insights.

Consider the following as a suggestion for further refinement.

Most admission officers and ETS will tell you that if two scores are within 50 points of each other, it is not a statistically significant difference.

Thus many months ago I observed in a posting that the differences in SAT scores across the County were not that different with just a few outliers at the top and bottom from the County average.

If you apply that perspective to your rankings, I suspect that a lot of schools turn out to be tied in SAT achievement.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 01:55PM by Thomas More.

Lester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like these schools will have students at the
> right social level, homes above $400,000.
>
> Any favorites out of these?
>
> Fairfax County Private School Overview:
>
> Town $ H.V. High School # Stud. G.O.
> (HV=Median Home Value)
>
> Fairfax $427,400 Bethlehem Bapt Christian
> Academy 308 PK-12
>
> Fairfax $427,400 Little Flock Christian School
> 141 PK-8
>
> Fairfax $427,400 Oak Valley Center (Special
> Education School) 45 3-12
>
> Fairfax $427,400 Trinity Christian School 551
> K-12
>
> Fairfax $427,400 Way Of Faith Christian Acedemy
> 183 K-12
>
> Fairfax Station $403,700 Fairfax Baptist Temple
> Academy 277 NS-12
>
> Mclean $388,609 The Madeira School All-girls
> 302 9-12
>
> Mclean $388,609 The Potomac School 871 NS-12
>
>
> 9. Oakton $353,500 Flint Hill School 896 PK-12

-----------
Note how SMALL all these fine schools are? Why does the South Lakes community insist they have too few students?

Glass Slipper Wrote "I choose to stay and help turn things around."

It is not YOU who has to stay in a school, it is your children. I do a lot of charitable work to help others, but I do not put my own children into substandard housing or deny them a family trip to Disneyland. I give my children the "best" education I can find.

Do you do otherwise?

How come? Wrote: "Stu Gibson wants to help Reston schools. He cares about Hughes and South Lakes only."

Then why doesn't he work to FIX South Lakes instead of dragging in unwilling families? For example, right on this board several Restonians have indicated displeasure with IB, yet the staff claims they have heard no complaints. For another example, what are other schools doing right that they are not "losing" kids the way SLHS is?

We parents can only get blown off like this for so long. Eventually we vote with our feet.

Stat Man

It seems that you consider a school underperforming if it's academic blended rank is more than 3 notches loweer than your ESL/FRR ranking.

Using that criteria, wouldn't SoCo and Robinson also be considered underperforming?

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stats Man
>
> Love your work. Very informative. Interesting
> insights.
>
> Consider the following as a suggestion for further
> refinement.
>
> Most admission officers and ETS will tell you that
> if two scores are within 50 points of each other,
> it is not a statistically significant difference.
>
> Thus many months ago I observed in a posting that
> the differences in SAT scores across the County
> were not that different with just a few outliers
> at the top and bottom from the County average.
>
> If you apply that perspective to your rankings, I
> suspect that a lot of schools turn out to be tied
> in SAT achievement.

Thanks, TM. I believe the analysis is consistent with your observation that a redistricting between Herndon and South Lakes would have made more sense and been less controversial than the recent South Lakes redistricting that pulled in Madison, Oakton and Westfield students.

Stay? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glass Slipper Wrote "I choose to stay and help
> turn things around."
>
> It is not YOU who has to stay in a school, it is
> your children. I do a lot of charitable work to
> help others, but I do not put my own children into
> substandard housing or deny them a family trip to
> Disneyland. I give my children the "best"
> education I can find.
>
> Do you do otherwise?

Ewwww. La Smug de la Smug. Heavier-than-normal dose today.

"I do a lot of charitable work" when I am not supervising my servants at my McMansion, or sending my kids (and nannies) on another trip to Disneyland.

At least Cinderella visited the schools (apparently as the representative for some of those SVES parents who've made up their mind). You have no such foundation for your dim suggestion that parents who send their kids to SLHS and Hughes somehow act negligently.

Puhhhleeaazze. Tell that to all the SLHS grads who are going to top-notch schools next year, and tell their parents.

BTW: I know many SVES and Hunters Woods parents who -- having cautiously sent their kids to Hughes, despite all the whispering, the pitying (and sometimes scornful) glances from other parents with access to the "best" education -- are very happy and highly relieved that they didn't follow the panic peddlers.

And they all share stories of some parent of a 2nd grader at the playground with firm plans to move before middle school -- because of "what they've heard." Good riddance.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stat Man
>
> It seems that you consider a school
> underperforming if it's academic blended rank is
> more than 3 notches loweer than your ESL/FRR
> ranking.
>
> Using that criteria, wouldn't SoCo and Robinson
> also be considered underperforming?

TM - Using that criteria (academic blended rank 3 notches or more below ESL/FRR ranking), one would also include South County and Mt. Vernon, but not Robinson. Robinson is #7 in lowest ESL/FRR, but #9 on the academic blend.

You sure are staring at these numbers. Did you memorize all the ERAs and batting averages as a kid?

Dear Stay,

How do you know the 'best' isn't right here? You are the smug one, or so it seems. I hope that your efforts pay off as you work your butt off to create the 'perfect' scenario for your child. Are you sure it's worth it? I could ask Cinderella the same about that private school tuition she will be shelling out every month. What happens if her child still doesn't perform to her standards? Where will she go then? I wish her and her daughter the best of luck in their choices, but she really doesn't have the knowledge to comment on a school her child has never attended. She is welcome to her choice, but not second-hand opinions.

Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glass Slipper Wrote "I choose to stay and help
> turn things around."
>
> It is not YOU who has to stay in a school, it is
> your children. I do a lot of charitable work to
> help others, but I do not put my own children into
> substandard housing or deny them a family trip to
> Disneyland. I give my children the "best"
> education I can find.
>
> Do you do otherwise?

Stay? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How come? Wrote: "Stu Gibson wants to help Reston
> schools. He cares about Hughes and South Lakes
> only."
>
> Then why doesn't he work to FIX South Lakes
> instead of dragging in unwilling families? For
> example, right on this board several Restonians
> have indicated displeasure with IB, yet the staff
> claims they have heard no complaints. For another
> example, what are other schools doing right that
> they are not "losing" kids the way SLHS is?
>
> We parents can only get blown off like this for so
> long. Eventually we vote with our feet.

The easiest way to 'fix' South Lakes is to bring in more high scoring students so that it appears SL is a better school.

The right thing to do is to provide a better education to the students in the Reston elementary schools, long before they arrive at South Lakes, or Hughes. They need better reading programs, a real math curriculum that works. They need to do fewer art and dance programs and more science, math, phonics, spelling, reading and writing. There is no reason for so many students to arrive at Hughes and South Lakes unprepared to do high school level work. With real, effective, educational programs, students at South Lakes can compete. But FCPS staff and school board have no interest in doing any of that. It's easier to force more students into the school, a very short term solution, judging from the fact that at least half have found a way out of South lakes.

Stat Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > TM - Using that criteria (academic blended rank 3 notches or more below ESL/FRR ranking), one would also include South County and Mt. Vernon, but not Robinson. Robinson is #7 in lowest ESL/FRR, but #9 on the academic blend.< <

thanks for the correction

> > You sure are staring at these numbers. Did you memorize all the ERAs and batting averages as a kid?< <

Well, no, but I always enjoy an iconoclastic perspective and I did take stats in college.

I've been a volunteer in the admissions program at the old alma mater for 30 years and I'm constantly entertained by the smug snobbery of some FCPS parents who think they have it all over the rest of us because their kid goes to high school x or y.

So much whistling past various and sundry graveyards.

If you adjust for the 50 point margin of error in SAT scores, I think you'll find that most FCPS high schools are populated by kids from very similar socio-economic backgrounds achieving approximately the same level of performance on the SATs.

That some kids at some schools do slightly better despite their school facing disproportionate challenges in ESL/FRM is a reflection of the determination of those kids and their families and not a reflection of anything sharp the schools are doing, with some obvious exceptions like Stuart.

Many months ago someone posted a chart on this forum that showed that SOL scores were markedly better among FCPS high schools if FRM levels were lower than 15% (Stuart was the only outlier).

Given that 20% of FCPS kids get FRM, it seems that some schools are condemned to always underperform on the SOLs and the SB has chosen to sacrifice the kids in the lowest quartile at those schools to protect the kids at the other schools.

Writing off an entire generation of kids from working class families seems a heartless choice.

Glass Slipper - why are you so critical of Cinderella? This is not a person that made an impulsive decision - rather it appears to have been a rather deliberate one - and well thought out - no matter whether you agree with the result. And her criticisms are by any measure valid - there are challenges with the feeder schools, if not with SLHS itself. And while I respect your decision to stay and help work out those challenges, certainly you must realize that this course is not the best for everyone. And note that Cinderella's criticisms - even if you disagree with them - are neither mean nor inflammatory. And importantly, she relates a story from a relatively unheard from group - those that have checked out of the SLHS pyramid - already emotionally and financially vesting themselves in a private or other school alternative - taxpaying customers that are thus de facto beyond the reach of the public schools. Sounds like someone I would want to continue to hear from, even if I would disagree with some of her points.

If you believe strongly in the SLHS pyramid, then it strikes me that it would be helpful if you believed that those vested in those schools have the continuous burden to persuade others of the worthiness of the cause. Yes, there always will be narrow minded people, thinking in a rigid fashion with their minds already made up - but Cinderella's explanation is a far cry from that - she describes a measured, deliberative, personal and difficult decisionmaking process - in other words, reflective of just the sort of person you should work to persuade rather than chastise for leaving the schools.

You may of course disagree with my conclusions and opinions here. But your posts really come across as akin to shooting a very reasonable messenger. And others are quite correct - Cinderella doesn't need me to defend her - and that is not the intent here. To the extent, however, anyone reasonable believes that those vested in the SLHS pyramid need to promote the virtues of the relevant schools, this sure doesn't strike me as the way to go about it.

July 3rd Here's hoping that celebration fireworks start a day early for Fox Mill, Floris, Madison Island and Navy.
Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their powers from the consent of the governed,-That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it. John Hancock July 4th 1776.

Hope that the dark evil forces lead by Stu Gibson bite the dust and rule of the people is restored.

July 3rd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> July 3rd Here's hoping that celebration fireworks
> start a day early for Fox Mill, Floris, Madison
> Island and Navy.
> Governments are instituted among Men, deriving
> their powers from the consent of the
> governed,-That whenever any Form of Government
> becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right
> of the people to alter or abolish it. John
> Hancock July 4th 1776.

After watching Gibson during the RD process on the dais, clapping and preening, I think he may be more of a Gollum than a Sauron. Still he has the ring and someone has to get it away from him!

There is a reason I have been quiet and not responding to some of the posts today -- the utter vitriol that is directed at anyone in the SL pyramid who presents a different voice. We are accused of being disloyal -- not dishonest - but disloyal. It is an imposed group-think that does not allow for all ideas to get out on the table. It's oppressive and controlling and I want no part of it.

To those in the SL who wish me good riddance --

please note I did not say that SL is a horrible school. I give Bruce Butler credit for what he's done. I don't think IB is for everyone, but for those who think it is the right decision for their child, I don't know a single person who is unhappy with it.

What I have focused on is something that is rather obvious to anyone in the elementary schools right now -- we're losing far too many kids, even before they get to Hughes. It isn't just SVES -- it's many other schools as well. But again, my experience and the experiences of other people are discounted because we haven't attended Hughes -- as though friends don't have older children who have attended Hughes with differing perspectives, or you don't learn what is going on when you talk with parents when your child participates in various sports teams. Both you know and I know for a fact that there are Reston residents who taught at Langston Hughes and pupil placed their children at Carson -- actions speak louder than words, no? It isn't hearsay -- it's straight from the mouth of people who have experienced it -- but why bother listening to us.

Please note that I didn't say SVES and HW and other schools don't work for anyone. It's so classic what the SL group-thinkers do -- exaggerate what you say into an extreme position such as "the schools don't work for anyone and they're horrible" so they can dismiss you once they prove that it worked for their child.

What I said is that SVES, HW and Hughes don't work for a sizeable part of our community, and that if you want to build on what Bruce Butler has done at SL by having bringing in more committed parents and building a stronger parent community, it needs to be fixed very quickly, because people are yanking their kids from the school in the meantime. Some of these parents have kids at South Lakes, but they're not willing to wait 5 years before getting there and muddling through at the feeder schools.

If you'd like to jump to conclusions about me on not caring and volunteering in the schools, be my guest. Parents joining together and asking for change is what will work here, but so many of you are so happy to see us leave, I don't believe you have a chance of getting us back, and whether you want to hear it or not, the community schools will be lesser for it. I know many, many people who have pulled their children, and the contempt you show for them and their circumstances speaks for itself.


quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glass Slipper - why are you so critical of
> Cinderella? This is not a person that made an
> impulsive decision - rather it appears to have
> been a rather deliberate one - and well thought
> out - no matter whether you agree with the result.
> And her criticisms are by any measure valid -
> there are challenges with the feeder schools, if
> not with SLHS itself. And while I respect your
> decision to stay and help work out those
> challenges, certainly you must realize that this
> course is not the best for everyone. And note
> that Cinderella's criticisms - even if you
> disagree with them - are neither mean nor
> inflammatory. And importantly, she relates a
> story from a relatively unheard from group - those
> that have checked out of the SLHS pyramid -
> already emotionally and financially vesting
> themselves in a private or other school
> alternative - taxpaying customers that are thus de
> facto beyond the reach of the public schools.
> Sounds like someone I would want to continue to
> hear from, even if I would disagree with some of
> her points.
>
> If you believe strongly in the SLHS pyramid, then
> it strikes me that it would be helpful if you
> believed that those vested in those schools have
> the continuous burden to persuade others of the
> worthiness of the cause. Yes, there always will
> be narrow minded people, thinking in a rigid
> fashion with their minds already made up - but
> Cinderella's explanation is a far cry from that -
> she describes a measured, deliberative, personal
> and difficult decisionmaking process - in other
> words, reflective of just the sort of person you
> should work to persuade rather than chastise for
> leaving the schools.
>
> You may of course disagree with my conclusions and
> opinions here. But your posts really come across
> as akin to shooting a very reasonable messenger.
> And others are quite correct - Cinderella doesn't
> need me to defend her - and that is not the intent
> here. To the extent, however, anyone reasonable
> believes that those vested in the SLHS pyramid
> need to promote the virtues of the relevant
> schools, this sure doesn't strike me as the way to
> go about it.

Stats Man Wrote:
> Thank you for the additional data. My blended
> index was indeed intended to assess the comparable
> performance of the achievement-oriented student
> populations at the various schools. ...
>
----------
With the obvious and understandable exception that Jefferson is just about always on top of every ranking (but not too good at football!) the list always varies a bit. However, we seem to be coming up with better information with each element of data added to the equation. Does the below seem like a fair assessment up to this point?

Again excepting Jefferson and leaving us with 24 high schools, there is a rather consistent "top bunch" (alphabetically: Langley, Madison, McLean, Oakton, Woodson) and "second quartile" (again alphabetically: Centreville, Chantilly, Lake Braddock, Robinson, West Springfield, Westfield).

Interesting. The top bunch are all AP and are roughly located in the north-central part of the county. The "second quartile" includes only one IB school and are all west-central.

South County is still in the data-collection phase but for now might be included with "middle of the pack" Fairfax and Herndon. Marshall and Stuart are, as you say, "punching above their weight" and are worth studying for what they do right; what might be repeated at what might be called (until a better term is created) the "bottom third" (Alphabetically: Annandale, Edison, Falls Church, Hayfield, Lee, Mt. Vernon, South Lakes, West Potomac)

You note, "Given the socio-economic characteristics of Madison, West Springfield, Hayfield and Edison, these schools appear to be underperforming academically compared to schools with similar profiles." Before you and I are hanged in effigy by the PTAs of these schools, can you delineate the details for further analysis?

Regarding dropout rates: the schools that "have lower drop-out rates than one might expect based on their socio-economic profile" should be examined for housing trends. Fairfax, Chantilly, and Westfield might merely be showing the results of additional housing units.

Any one knows why the recall died? It is pity the ffx cnty residents voted for Gibson in the first place.

Gollum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After watching Gibson during the RD process on the
> dais, clapping and preening, I think he may be
> more of a Gollum than a Sauron. Still he has the
> ring and someone has to get it away from him!

Boundary Warrior Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stay? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Glass Slipper Wrote "I choose to stay and help
> > turn things around."
> >
> > It is not YOU who has to stay in a school, it
> is
> > your children. I do a lot of charitable work to
> > help others, but I do not put my own children
> into
> > substandard housing or deny them a family trip
> to
> > Disneyland. I give my children the "best"
> > education I can find.
> >
> > Do you do otherwise?
>
> Ewwww. La Smug de la Smug. Heavier-than-normal
> dose today.
>
> "I do a lot of charitable work" when I am not
> supervising my servants at my McMansion, or
> sending my kids (and nannies) on another trip to
> Disneyland.
>
> At least Cinderella visited the schools

Interesting psychology exhibited by Boundary Warrior and Glass Slipper. They both use the word "smug" to describe parents who do not choose to use our children to fix problems at another school. Neither have told us if they deny their own children trips to Disneyworld.

[Speaking of Disney: Cinderella, may I board your coach? I have just been given a McMansion and servants I never knew I had, and I must have been given the gift of invisibilty because I am now told I have never visited SLHS or Hughes.]

Glass Slipper Wrote: "Dear Stay, How do you know the 'best' isn't right here?"

I know this because YOU wrote on June 29, 2008 10:43PM about "those who work very hard to support the schools, worked very hard to support redistricting and are working harder still to turn the pyramid around."

Why turn things around if you are already on the right track?

As quantum wrote, "To the extent, however, anyone reasonable believes that those vested in the SLHS pyramid need to promote the virtues of the relevant schools, this sure doesn't strike me as the way to go about it."

I presented this spread sheet to the SB Members at the January "Public input" meetings. Very basic stats pulled from the FCPS web site.

You will notice that the IB schools are consistently at the top or bottom of the charts regarding various stats, from mobility rates etc.

Interesting.
Attachments:

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stats Man Wrote:
> > Thank you for the additional data. My blended
> > index was indeed intended to assess the
> comparable
> > performance of the achievement-oriented student
> > populations at the various schools. ...
> >
> ----------
> With the obvious and understandable exception that
> Jefferson is just about always on top of every
> ranking (but not too good at football!) the list
> always varies a bit. However, we seem to be coming
> up with better information with each element of
> data added to the equation. Does the below seem
> like a fair assessment up to this point?
>
> Again excepting Jefferson and leaving us with 24
> high schools, there is a rather consistent "top
> bunch" (alphabetically: Langley, Madison, McLean,
> Oakton, Woodson) and "second quartile" (again
> alphabetically: Centreville, Chantilly, Lake
> Braddock, Robinson, West Springfield, Westfield).
>
>
> Interesting. The top bunch are all AP and are
> roughly located in the north-central part of the
> county. The "second quartile" includes only one IB
> school and are all west-central.
>
> South County is still in the data-collection phase
> but for now might be included with "middle of the
> pack" Fairfax and Herndon. Marshall and Stuart
> are, as you say, "punching above their weight" and
> are worth studying for what they do right; what
> might be repeated at what might be called (until a
> better term is created) the "bottom third"
> (Alphabetically: Annandale, Edison, Falls Church,
> Hayfield, Lee, Mt. Vernon, South Lakes, West
> Potomac)
>
> You note, "Given the socio-economic
> characteristics of Madison, West Springfield,
> Hayfield and Edison, these schools appear to be
> underperforming academically compared to schools
> with similar profiles." Before you and I are
> hanged in effigy by the PTAs of these schools, can
> you delineate the details for further analysis?
>
> Regarding dropout rates: the schools that "have
> lower drop-out rates than one might expect based
> on their socio-economic profile" should be
> examined for housing trends. Fairfax, Chantilly,
> and Westfield might merely be showing the results
> of additional housing units.

Forum Reader - I don't know what methodology or blended analysis you followed to come up with your assessment. Perhaps you could explain what data you relied upon and how you made use of it. My initial reaction is that your rankings appear subjective and perhaps weighted against the higher-performing IB schools such as Marshall and Robinson.

Lester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like these schools will have students at the
> right social level, homes above $400,000.
>
> Any favorites out of these?
>
> Fairfax County Private School Overview:
> Mclean $388,609 The Madeira School All-girls
> 302 9-12
>
> Mclean $388,609 The Potomac School 871 NS-12
>
>
> 9. Oakton $353,500 Flint Hill School 896 PK-12

The three that are worth looking at are listed above. Personally I think Medeira and Potomac are the best. You find a higher elite\rich class of people at Potomac if that is what you are looking for.

Potomac kids are also more refined, in my opinion, than Medeira or Flint Hill. These schools provide a better social structure and arena for kids and teenagers.

Stay? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boundary Warrior Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Stay? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Glass Slipper Wrote "I choose to stay and
> help
> > > turn things around."
> > >
> > > It is not YOU who has to stay in a school, it
> > is
> > > your children. I do a lot of charitable work
> to
> > > help others, but I do not put my own children
> > into
> > > substandard housing or deny them a family
> trip
> > to
> > > Disneyland. I give my children the "best"
> > > education I can find.
> > >
> > > Do you do otherwise?
> >
> > Ewwww. La Smug de la Smug.
> Heavier-than-normal
> > dose today.
> >
> > "I do a lot of charitable work" when I am not
> > supervising my servants at my McMansion, or
> > sending my kids (and nannies) on another trip
> to
> > Disneyland.
> >
> > At least Cinderella visited the schools
>
> Interesting psychology exhibited by Boundary
> Warrior and Glass Slipper. They both use the word
> "smug" to describe parents who do not choose to
> use our children to fix problems at another
> school. Neither have told us if they deny their
> own children trips to Disneyworld.
>
>


I used smug to describe your odd benchmarks on what constitutes proper parenting: Trips to Disneyland and your clear,unambiguous assertion that anyone who choses to send their kids to SLHS/Hughes fails, by (your) definition, to give their child the "best" education.

If I send my kids to band camp, science camp, or chorale camp, will you please call me a good parent? What if we went to Universal Studios last year?

My kids went to help Katrina victims -- good enough to pass, too liberal, or Christian goody-goody?

You've got the grading system in hand. Please let me know if we pass......sorry. Not interested.

That may be TM, but the net result is the same. People move places for a reason, families almost exclusively for the schools - please don't bother to deny this SLers, because I'm a real estate agent who has worked in the RD'd areas for years, and the bottom line is that even if you're 80 years old with nary a school-age child in sight you'll always get a better return on your home investment if you're in a great school district. But that's another thing that I agree with TM on - FFX CTY schools are just mediocore.

If you can't feel the pain of people who paid a premium on a piece of land that was connected to a certain school and then had the rug pulled out from underneath them for nonsensical reasons then at least register the fact that this was the case. When you pay "extra" for a great district, on top of your income taxes, on top of your sales tax, gas tax, grantor's tax, auto registration, etc... and you see that there is absolutely no accountability for what you've just paid for, well, there will defintely be an irate population.

That's a valid reason to be angry - people here say "vote with your feet". Well, alot of us did but politicos in NoVa who espouse our views are in the minority and our candidates rarely get elected. So what recourse is there? We can demand accountabilty until the cows come home but the same old people just keep getting elected. If this is the will of the people then I guess you get what you pay for. However, like Cindrella says, it's just not right that the schools tell you "Your kid will be okay, you're involved, you work with them" or "get over it, the RD is done" or "you should know that boundaries change", or the ever-famous "these schools don't belong to you" etc...

Say what you want, but nah, not going to bend over on this one - it's flat out wrong. Better to stick with Churchill's sage advice: "Never, never, never, never, never give up."

Stat Man Wrote:
> Forum Reader - I don't know what methodology or
> blended analysis you followed to come up with your
> assessment. Perhaps you could explain what data
> you relied upon and how you made use of it. My
> initial reaction is that your rankings appear
> subjective and perhaps weighted against the
> higher-performing IB schools such as Marshall and
> Robinson.

Any categorizing will have some anomalies. I tried to ease some of the anomalies and discussions over specific ranking numbers by listing the schools within each main category alphabetically. The "top bunch" (Langley, Madison, McLean,Oakton, Woodson) are rather consistently among the top schools. For yet another example, in the chart presented by "Floris Parent" just above, these are the schools scoring above 1700 in the SATs.

The question as to why the top FCPS high schools are all AP while five of the eight IB schools are in the "bottom third" has been the topic of ongoing discussions. The "blended" (or categorized) analysis includes your observations of schools that "outperform" expectations (your #25 Stuart and your #14 Marshall), both of which are IB and both of which I stated "are worth studying for what they do right." Stuart, especially, seems to be successful in educating so-called "at risk" students, even though their drop out rate is still a concern.

If the "second quartile" high schools were listed in rough rank order instead of alphabetically, Robinson would have been closer the "top" of its sublist. However, it does have lower mobility, ESL, and FRM than most of the schools in the second quartile, so it is pretty much performing "at expected."

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I presented this spread sheet to the SB Members at
> the January "Public input" meetings. Very basic
> stats pulled from the FCPS web site.
>
> You will notice that the IB schools are
> consistently at the top or bottom of the charts
> regarding various stats, from mobility rates etc.
>
> Interesting.

I like numbers, too, so I did find the statistics interesting. But I hope your presentation to the School Board was a bit more nuanced than giving them a spreadsheet and saying "you shouldn't redistrict my kids to a school with higher ESL/FRR numbers." That would leave them with no political alternative than to do just that - but then I may be assuming that they actually paid attention to what you had to say at the public sessions, which is probably not a realistic assumption if it was all worked out in advance.

Boundary Warrior Wrote: "I used smug to describe your odd benchmarks on what constitutes proper parenting... You've got the grading system in hand. Please let me know if we pass......sorry. Not interested."

Tell us again how everything is gonna be all right at our new schools and how welcoming you all are.

But then, perhaps this "Warrior" suffers a bit from PTSD. I do hope you can at least modify your language when your own children somehow arouse your ire:

To “Disgusted” on May 30, 2008 10:41AM:
“Oh shut up and get a life. …. What a narrow little village you occupy.”

To “Neen” on June 02, 2008 04:49AM
“… you are a despicable, pathetic, and ill liar. You spew bile 90 times a night. And you get corrected and remanded constantly, yet continue to spew.”

To “Not So Obvious” on June 25, 2008 01:30PM
“What a classic underscoring of why so many smugsters here don't get it: protecting their own status out of fear that they and theirs may be discovered as being mediocre.”

OMG you racist and classist little bee-otch

middle class= white











so what Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope they do send these kids to Hughes. Hughes
> is not so bad, and the infusion of more middle
> class kids will make it better. Why should Carson
> get all the middle class kids...it is enough that
> Carson is nice and new.
>
> People need to lighten up. Transfering from a
> great school to an okay school is no big
> deal...the kids will be fine. Maybe better. It
> is not like going to a school in southeast DC.
>
>
>
>
> so sad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When will the scope of the Coppermine study be
> > out? Does the public get to comment on the
> scope
> > or on the criteria? I mean, I know they are
> going
> > to wait for the lawsuit (keep your fingers
> crossed
> > for this Thursday!!). But how soon afterwards
> > will they let the public know their next evil
> > plan?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Any categorizing will have some anomalies. I tried
> to ease some of the anomalies and discussions over
> specific ranking numbers by listing the schools
> within each main category alphabetically. The "top
> bunch" (Langley, Madison, McLean,Oakton, Woodson)
> are rather consistently among the top schools. For
> yet another example, in the chart presented by
> "Floris Parent" just above, these are the schools
> scoring above 1700 in the SATs.
>
> The question as to why the top FCPS high schools
> are all AP while five of the eight IB schools are
> in the "bottom third" has been the topic of
> ongoing discussions. The "blended" (or
> categorized) analysis includes your observations
> of schools that "outperform" expectations (your
> #25 Stuart and your #14 Marshall), both of which
> are IB and both of which I stated "are worth
> studying for what they do right." Stuart,
> especially, seems to be successful in educating
> so-called "at risk" students, even though their
> drop out rate is still a concern.
>
> If the "second quartile" high schools were listed
> in rough rank order instead of alphabetically,
> Robinson would have been closer the "top" of its
> sublist. However, it does have lower mobility,
> ESL, and FRM than most of the schools in the
> second quartile, so it is pretty much performing
> "at expected."

Forum Reader - Let me explain the chart again. The first column ranks the combined percentages of a school's ESL/FRR student populations. Jefferson (#1) has the lowest combined percentage of ESL/FRR students; Stuart (#25) has the highest. I included this information to explore how these rankings correlated to a school's blended academic rank (based on SATs, SOLs, percentage of Advanced Diploma graduates and "Challenge Index" rankings) and drop-out rate. In and of themselves, a school's combined ESL/FRR percentages obviously should not be used as a measure, but only as a possible predictor, of academic performance or drop-out rates.

Columns:
(Before School Name): Low to High ESL/FRR Combined Percentage
(After School Name): Blended Academic Rank
(After Blended Academic Rank): Drop-Out Rank

1. Jefferson 1 2
2. Langley 2 3
3. Madison 6 8
4. Woodson 4 1
5. Oakton 5 4
6. McLean 3 10
7. Robinson 9 12
8. West Springfield 12 9
9. Chantilly 10 6
10. Westfield 11 7
11. Lake Braddock 8 13
12. South County 15 N/A
13. Centreville 13 11
14. Marshall 7 14
15. Fairfax 16 5
16. Hayfield 24 N/A
17. Herndon 14 18
18. Edison 22 15
19. West Potomac 20 22
20. South Lakes 17 17
21. Mt. Vernon 24 21
22. Lee 21 16
23. Annandale 22 19
24. Falls Church 19 20
25. Stuart 18 23

Here's how Marshall and Robinson - generally considered the highest performing IB schools in the county - are measured under this analysis.

Marshall is #14 measured by the percentage of combined ESL/FRR (13 schools have lower combined ESL/FRR and 11 have higher combined ESL/FRR). It scores #7 on the blended academic rating and #14 on the drop-out rate.

Robinson is #7 measured by the percentage of combined ESL/FRR student. It scores #9 on the blended academic rating and #12 on the drop-out rate.

My conclusion, therefore, is that both of these schools are clearly in the top half of the county's high schools and that this would be the case even if the drop-out rate were assigned equal weight to the blended academic rating or equal weight to each of the four components of the blended academic rating.

I assume from your last post that you previously read the chart to suggest that the first column - the ranking of the combined ESL/FRR percentages - reflected some type of composite assessment of school or student performance. That was not the intent.

Of course, you can read or assign different weight to the same data that I considered or introduce additional factors into the analysis. For example, if you were to decide that equal or greater weight should be assigned to, say, the number of students taking end-of-year AP tests at the various schools than to a school's average performance on SATs or SOLs, these rankings would change a lot, since few IB students take AP exams. I tried to use data that could be fairly measured across-the-board at county schools.

Stay? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boundary Warrior Wrote: "I used smug to describe
> your odd benchmarks on what constitutes proper
> parenting... You've got the grading system in
> hand. Please let me know if we pass......sorry.
> Not interested."
>
> Tell us again how everything is gonna be all right
> at our new schools and how welcoming you all are.
>
>
> But then, perhaps this "Warrior" suffers a bit
> from PTSD. I do hope you can at least modify your
> language when your own children somehow arouse
> your ire:
>
> To “Disgusted” on May 30, 2008 10:41AM:
> “Oh shut up and get a life. …. What a narrow
> little village you occupy.”
>
> To “Neen” on June 02, 2008 04:49AM
> “… you are a despicable, pathetic, and ill liar.
> You spew bile 90 times a night. And you get
> corrected and remanded constantly, yet continue to
> spew.”
>
> To “Not So Obvious” on June 25, 2008 01:30PM
> “What a classic underscoring of why so many
> smugsters here don't get it: protecting their own
> status out of fear that they and theirs may be
> discovered as being mediocre.”

Oh. Did I hurt your feelings? A consistent theme in this thread: Pontificators Since you are recounting the record, take a look at

Anyone have a good idea as to the take-up rate with the redistricting? How many have pupil placed? Seems like a fair question about now after all of the sturm and drang over the redistricting.

Stat Man Wrote:
> ... Jefferson
> (#1) has the lowest combined percentage of ESL/FRR
> students; Stuart (#25) has the highest. I
> included this information to explore how these
> rankings correlated to a school's blended academic
> rank (based on SATs, SOLs, percentage of Advanced
> Diploma graduates and "Challenge Index" rankings)
> and drop-out rate. ...
>
> Marshall ... scores #7 on the blended academic rating and #14
> on the drop-out rate.
>
> Robinson ... scores #9 on the
> blended academic rating and #12 on the drop-out
> rate.
>
> My conclusion, therefore, is that both of these
> schools are clearly in the top half of the
> county's high schools and that this would be the
> case even if the drop-out rate were assigned equal
> weight to the blended academic rating or equal
> weight to each of the four components of the
> blended academic rating.
>
> ... Of course, you can read or assign different weight
> to the same data that I considered or introduce
> additional factors into the analysis. For
> example, if you were to decide that equal or
> greater weight should be assigned to, say, the
> number of students taking end-of-year AP tests at
> the various schools than to a school's average
> performance on SATs or SOLs, these rankings would
> change a lot, since few IB students take AP exams.
> I tried to use data that could be fairly measured
> across-the-board at county schools.

Stat Man,
I do very much appreciate being able to discuss numbers with a rational poster. We seem to agree that Robinson generally fits in the second quartile of FCPS high schools, and that Marshall and Stuart are achieving noteworthy success.

What additional data would you find useful? Data common to IB and AP schools are available from the state at:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/reportcard/

Asked for the pupil placed numbers from FCPS and still waiting.

Forum Reader Wrote:
> Stat Man,
> I do very much appreciate being able to discuss
> numbers with a rational poster. We seem to agree
> that Robinson generally fits in the second
> quartile of FCPS high schools, and that Marshall
> and Stuart are achieving noteworthy success.
>
> What additional data would you find useful? Data
> common to IB and AP schools are available from the
> state at:
> https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/reportcard/

Forum Reader - I've crunched as many numbers as I can, and will now let you and others draw such conclusions from them as you wish. I continue to sense that your willingness to recognize the acknowledgments of students at the top IB schools is somewhat muted.

However, having gone back and read some of your prior posts dating back to last November, I found myself in such broad agreement with most of the views you previously expressed in a calm and rational manner - suggesting, for example, the need for a moratorium on any redistricting until a broader, more comprehensive study could be performed and warning that South County Secondary was sure to be followed by South County Middle - that I will simply await your further posts and read them with interest.

Thomas -
Couple things -

1) Since SATs are only taken by college bound students, it's a self-selected group. Despite their problems, SOLs are a better measure for comparisons amongst VA HSes since all students have to take them.

2) I have a suspicion that the Wake President would be a bit unhappy with a class of kids who only have 400s but somehow found high schools bad enough to give them all As... In other words, I suspect what he meant to say was, SATs alone are not as good a predictor as other single measures. I also suspect that SATs in combination with other measures (e.g. GPA) together provide a better measure than either alone.

3) I suspect much of Wake's problem with the SAT & prediction is that SATs are improperly centered for Wake's applicant pool. An instrument that's centered on the general college going population (and was recentered downward about 10 years ago or so...) isn't particularly effective in differentiating amongst the kids 2 SDs above the mean or higher - where Wake's applicant pool is. If the tests were hard enough to be centered where Wake's population is - a la the AMC/AIME math tests - I suspect Wake might find some use in the results.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great op-ed piece in Sunday's Post by the
> President of Wake Forest which has dropped
> requiring SAT for applicants this year.
>
> Several points in the piece bear repeating: SATs
> are not an effective predictor of college success.
> SATs most closely correlate to family income. As
> I posted earlier, aggregating SATs scores by high
> school does little more than reflect the
> socio-economic status of the high school's student
> body.
>
> It would therefore be reasonable to expect that
> Stuart and SL student body's SATs should be at the
> lower end of the SAT scale in FCPS. But they
> weren't. Adjust the SAT outcomes by FRM
> percentage and maybe SL's student body looks
> better than Herndon and other schools with lower
> FRM percentages but SAT scores within 50 points of
> either SL or Stuart.

Are there any support groups to help the families affected by this RD?

Thomas More said,
"Writing off an entire generation of kids from working class families seems a heartless choice."

Yes. It has seemed that way to me since 1975, when I firmly believed that the democrats would never write off another generation of Black children. Two generations later, they continue to support failed educational programs. When does it stop? When everyone has voted with their feet, and their pocketbooks, and the suburban schools have sunk to the level of the city schools? When do the democrats put the needs of children over the wants of the educrats and the teacher's unions?

support groups Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are there any support groups to help the families
> affected by this RD?

Yes. http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/index.html

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas -
> Couple things -
>
> 1) Since SATs are only taken by college bound
> students, it's a self-selected group. Despite
> their problems, SOLs are a better measure for
> comparisons amongst VA HSes since all students
> have to take them.
>
> 2) I have a suspicion that the Wake President
> would be a bit unhappy with a class of kids who
> only have 400s but somehow found high schools bad
> enough to give them all As... In other words, I
> suspect what he meant to say was, SATs alone are
> not as good a predictor as other single measures.
> I also suspect that SATs in combination with other
> measures (e.g. GPA) together provide a better
> measure than either alone.
>
> 3) I suspect much of Wake's problem with the SAT
> & prediction is that SATs are improperly centered
> for Wake's applicant pool. An instrument that's
> centered on the general college going population
> (and was recentered downward about 10 years ago or
> so...) isn't particularly effective in
> differentiating amongst the kids 2 SDs above the
> mean or higher - where Wake's applicant pool is.
> If the tests were hard enough to be centered where
> Wake's population is - a la the AMC/AIME math
> tests - I suspect Wake might find some use in the
> results.
>
If Wake Forest was looking for those students, the SATII's would give them some good choices, in addition to the math tests you suggest.

Wake would accept students with high grades and lower SAT scores, IF they are the right minorities. Wake admission directors are like most admission directors, they want to increase their 'diversity', meaning Black students. Wake has tried many things to attract more Black students, including full scholarships with additional stipends, a separate 'diversity' dorm that is the closest to classroom buildings, with the best accommodations and even paid summer programs that include trips to Europe. Apparently that has not worked to increase the number of Black students. Eliminating any standardized tests makes it easier to choose Black students without being accused (or sued) for
racial discrimination. The same approach is being tried in California schools since, by their laws, they can no longer practice affirmative action and the top schools now have 'too many' Asians, according to the admission offices.

I look forward to the day when it is illegal to ask for race on any application. But I suppose educrats would still search for ways to accept students, or deny students, based on race.

Stat Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
iI've crunched as many numbers as I
> can, and will now let you and others draw such
> conclusions from them as you wish. I continue to
> sense that your willingness to recognize the
> acknowledgments of students at the top IB schools
> is somewhat muted.
>
> However, having gone back and read some of your
> prior posts dating back to last November, I found
> myself in such broad agreement with most of the
> views you previously expressed in a calm and
> rational manner - suggesting, for example, the
> need for a moratorium on any redistricting until a
> broader, more comprehensive study could be
> performed and warning that South County Secondary
> was sure to be followed by South County Middle -
> that I will simply await your further posts and
> read them with interest.

I would look for that comprehensive redistricting study to be completed within the next year. The SB will pay another outside consultant to recommend extensive county redistricting.

It's dawning on the school board that they need to do massive redistricting and that it will be easier to do it all at one time, based on recommendations from an outside source. The public can then blame ALL of the school board, but will vote to re elect them 2 years later, since the majority of the public is clueless about schools and will vote for any democrat endorsed candidate.

Either they redistrict the entire county at once or face doing it school by school, every year forever, accompanied by a constant drum beat about how much money they are wasting with the thousands of empty seats across the county.

Were their kids in the GT program? I heard it was pretty good. However, if your child has not made the cut and in a GT program, is the quality of program instruction equal to the program found at Rachal Carson or Thoreau?

still waiting Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Asked for the pupil placed numbers from FCPS and
> still waiting.

Isn't that available on line, a board docs document? I seem to recall that it was posted during the RD meeting.

edna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Were their kids in the GT program? I heard it was
> pretty good. However, if your child has not made
> the cut and in a GT program, is the quality of
> program instruction equal to the program found at
> Rachal Carson or Thoreau?

To whom is this addressed?

FairfaxCAPS has someone working on Pupil placement issues, such as transportation, class selection, AP, etc.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> still waiting Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Asked for the pupil placed numbers from FCPS
> and
> > still waiting.
>
> Isn't that available on line, a board docs
> document? I seem to recall that it was posted
> during the RD meeting.

They had the pupil placement numbers already posted during the RD meeting? I would think a more accurate figure of the placement numbers would be...now?

Dear Quantum,

Methinks you are being a little hard on me.
1. Cinderella assumes that every PTA in the pyramid is in lockstep with its respective administration. I have pointed out that in my experience that is not the case - I spent much time bucking the system.
2. I believe it was Cinderella who assumed that principal selection committees were 'selected' because they were yes men. I have served on at least one of those committees and I am not a yes man.
3. Cinderella assumed that I was not rich, as she accused me of making assumptions about 'rich' people. She has no idea of my income level.
4. Cinderella lives in a neighborhood that petitioned to be removed from the pyramid, thus one could say that there is a prevailing attitude there that they don't belong - I believe it has to do with income level. Since its inception, the neighborhood has housed a fair amount of parents who felt the schools were not for them- I'm not sure why they bought there. There are several families that have done their best to foment discontent and yes, some never even gave the schools a chance. I could name names but I won't. Some of those families decamped years ago when the reputation of SL was at its worst (I don't blame them) and that did have an effect on the feeder schools; however, confidence in SL is on the upswing and now is the time to invest in the schools.
4. I have to assume that Cinderella did not work to support redistricting (i.e. her community), since she would not answer in the affirmative, thus my conclusion that she, like some of her neighbors, has already 'checked out.'
5. As an aside, I note that disenchantment with Sunrise Valley from some in her quarter began when it was required to take students from Dogwood due to NCLB - coincidence? Maybe? I cannot say.

Let's compare.....



Oakton HS summer reading:
Pre-AP English 9: The Odyssey by Homer (Robert Fitzgerald's translation)

South Lakes HS
Pre-IB 9: One novel from the following list:
** Secret Life of Bees by Sue Monk Kidd
** Life of PI by Yann Martel
** The Curious Incident of teh Dog in the Nighttime by Mark Haddon
** The Hobbit by J. R. R. Tolkien
** Into the Wild by Jon Krakauer

I should have added that Cinderella seems a reasonable messenger to you because her viewpoints fit quite nicely with your perceptions, no?

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glass Slipper - why are you so critical of
> Cinderella? This is not a person that made an
> impulsive decision - rather it appears to have
> been a rather deliberate one - and well thought
> out - no matter whether you agree with the result.
> And her criticisms are by any measure valid -
> there are challenges with the feeder schools, if
> not with SLHS itself. And while I respect your
> decision to stay and help work out those
> challenges, certainly you must realize that this
> course is not the best for everyone. And note
> that Cinderella's criticisms - even if you
> disagree with them - are neither mean nor
> inflammatory. And importantly, she relates a
> story from a relatively unheard from group - those
> that have checked out of the SLHS pyramid -
> already emotionally and financially vesting
> themselves in a private or other school
> alternative - taxpaying customers that are thus de
> facto beyond the reach of the public schools.
> Sounds like someone I would want to continue to
> hear from, even if I would disagree with some of
> her points.
>
> If you believe strongly in the SLHS pyramid, then
> it strikes me that it would be helpful if you
> believed that those vested in those schools have
> the continuous burden to persuade others of the
> worthiness of the cause. Yes, there always will
> be narrow minded people, thinking in a rigid
> fashion with their minds already made up - but
> Cinderella's explanation is a far cry from that -
> she describes a measured, deliberative, personal
> and difficult decisionmaking process - in other
> words, reflective of just the sort of person you
> should work to persuade rather than chastise for
> leaving the schools.
>
> You may of course disagree with my conclusions and
> opinions here. But your posts really come across
> as akin to shooting a very reasonable messenger.
> And others are quite correct - Cinderella doesn't
> need me to defend her - and that is not the intent
> here. To the extent, however, anyone reasonable
> believes that those vested in the SLHS pyramid
> need to promote the virtues of the relevant
> schools, this sure doesn't strike me as the way to
> go about it.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The easiest way to 'fix' South Lakes is to bring
> in more high scoring students so that it appears
> SL is a better school.

So, when Westfield was built and they moved Floris kids from Oakton to Westfield, are we to assume that they were bringing in more high-performing kids to mask the low performers at McNair?

What a maroon!!!! My children read The Odyssey at South Lakes, just not during the summer. In fact, which list would you rather choose from in the summer?

Oakton Bound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's compare.....
>
>
>
> Oakton HS summer reading:
> Pre-AP English 9: The Odyssey by Homer (Robert
> Fitzgerald's translation)
>
> South Lakes HS
> Pre-IB 9: One novel from the following list:
> ** Secret Life of Bees by Sue Monk Kidd
> ** Life of PI by Yann Martel
> ** The Curious Incident of teh Dog in the
> Nighttime by Mark Haddon
> ** The Hobbit by J. R. R. Tolkien
> ** Into the Wild by Jon Krakauer

You refuse to listen to the sizeable number of parents throughout Reston who have placed their children in private school after enrolling them in public school.

Everything is an ad hominem attack, even though all of your assumptions are false.

Unreal. Every word is twisted, and everything assumption is made to dismiss as much of what I am saying as possible.

Doesn't that suit your own purposes, Glass Slipper, or is that something you think is only applicable to Quantum?

No matter. You can attack me all you want, but until you are willing to acknowledge and address the concerns of a sizeable group of Reston parents who have left instead of pretending its all a big whining fest, we will not have the parental consensus and pressure brought to bear to change things. And that is the true tragedy. The parent community in South Reston is small, and you need all the support you can get, but without dealing with reality, you'll never get there.



Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Quantum,
>
> Methinks you are being a little hard on me.
> 1. Cinderella assumes that every PTA in the
> pyramid is in lockstep with its respective
> administration. I have pointed out that in my
> experience that is not the case - I spent much
> time bucking the system.
> 2. I believe it was Cinderella who assumed that
> principal selection committees were 'selected'
> because they were yes men. I have served on at
> least one of those committees and I am not a yes
> man.
> 3. Cinderella assumed that I was not rich, as she
> accused me of making assumptions about 'rich'
> people. She has no idea of my income level.
> 4. Cinderella lives in a neighborhood that
> petitioned to be removed from the pyramid, thus
> one could say that there is a prevailing attitude
> there that they don't belong - I believe it has to
> do with income level. Since its inception, the
> neighborhood has housed a fair amount of parents
> who felt the schools were not for them- I'm not
> sure why they bought there. There are several
> families that have done their best to foment
> discontent and yes, some never even gave the
> schools a chance. I could name names but I won't.
> Some of those families decamped years ago when
> the reputation of SL was at its worst (I don't
> blame them) and that did have an effect on the
> feeder schools; however, confidence in SL is on
> the upswing and now is the time to invest in the
> schools.
> 4. I have to assume that Cinderella did not work
> to support redistricting (i.e. her community),
> since she would not answer in the affirmative,
> thus my conclusion that she, like some of her
> neighbors, has already 'checked out.'
> 5. As an aside, I note that disenchantment with
> Sunrise Valley from some in her quarter began when
> it was required to take students from Dogwood due
> to NCLB - coincidence? Maybe? I cannot say.

Oakton Bound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's compare.....
>
>
>
> Oakton HS summer reading:
> Pre-AP English 9: The Odyssey by Homer (Robert
> Fitzgerald's translation)
>
> South Lakes HS
> Pre-IB 9: One novel from the following list:
> ** Secret Life of Bees by Sue Monk Kidd
> ** Life of PI by Yann Martel
> ** The Curious Incident of teh Dog in the
> Nighttime by Mark Haddon
> ** The Hobbit by J. R. R. Tolkien
> ** Into the Wild by Jon Krakauer

While I enjoyed reading the books on the SL list, I would not compare any of them to the Odyssey. At best, they are all nice beach books.

"Into the Wild" could be read in day, about a very dumb young man, who went to Woodson HS, who probably had a mental illness. He hated his parents, for no obvious reasons. He died because of his ignorance, and his very high self esteem. I haven't seen the movie, but it's probably a good substitute for reading this very short book about a very annoying individual.

"Secret Life of Bees" is a wonderful, girly, novel, set in the south with a moral of how awful racial discrimination was in the past. Does anyone NOT know that?

"The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night", another very short novel, teaches tolerance for autistic people and tells the reader how smart and insightful they can be.

"Life of Pi" is a magical tale, involving an Indian boy and lots of animals, completely forgetful, but a fun read of no significance.

"The Hobbit"? Didn't we all read that in elementary school? Is this a choice for those pre IB students who are not yet accomplished in reading?

Quite a list of insignificant books that should be easy for any 12 year old student to complete the entire list within a couple of weeks. If they only need to read one, most could be completed within a day or two. And forgotten almost in about the same amount of time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 10:42PM by Neen.

>>>The parent community in South Reston is small, and you need all the support you can get<<<

Wasn't that one of the major reasons for redistricting? The PTSA wanted more parents involved at South Lakes.

Neen Wrote:

> If Wake Forest was looking for those students, the
> SATII's would give them some good choices, in
> addition to the math tests you suggest.
>

No, SATII's aren't centered properly either. They are too easy to provide reasonable differentiation for Wake & the other "highly competitive" applicant pool schools.

On the math side, I prefer AMC's/AIME's. They are centered high enough to provide real differentiation. Their problem is that they make good kids feel bad. And we can't have that.

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Quantum,
>
> Methinks you are being a little hard on me.
> 1. Cinderella assumes that every PTA in the
> pyramid is in lockstep with its respective
> administration. I have pointed out that in my
> experience that is not the case - I spent much
> time bucking the system.
> 2. I believe it was Cinderella who assumed that
> principal selection committees were 'selected'
> because they were yes men. I have served on at
> least one of those committees and I am not a yes
> man.
> 3. Cinderella assumed that I was not rich, as she
> accused me of making assumptions about 'rich'
> people. She has no idea of my income level.
> 4. Cinderella lives in a neighborhood that
> petitioned to be removed from the pyramid, thus
> one could say that there is a prevailing attitude
> there that they don't belong - I believe it has to
> do with income level. Since its inception, the
> neighborhood has housed a fair amount of parents
> who felt the schools were not for them- I'm not
> sure why they bought there. There are several
> families that have done their best to foment
> discontent and yes, some never even gave the
> schools a chance. I could name names but I won't.
> Some of those families decamped years ago when
> the reputation of SL was at its worst (I don't
> blame them) and that did have an effect on the
> feeder schools; however, confidence in SL is on
> the upswing and now is the time to invest in the
> schools.
> 4. I have to assume that Cinderella did not work
> to support redistricting (i.e. her community),
> since she would not answer in the affirmative,
> thus my conclusion that she, like some of her
> neighbors, has already 'checked out.'
> 5. As an aside, I note that disenchantment with
> Sunrise Valley from some in her quarter began when
> it was required to take students from Dogwood due
> to NCLB - coincidence? Maybe? I cannot say.

Just curious, since you know where Cinderella lives, where she sent her children to school, can we assume that you know her and her daughters? Or are you simply making this up as you go along?

If you know who she is, feel free to name names. Put up, or stop the silly assumptions. Defend your school, and your choices, without the assumptions and attacks, unless you do know who she is and are familiar with her family and her 'wealthy' circumstances.

confidence in SL is on the upswing and now is the time to invest in the schools.

Glass Slipper, these are your words. Are you kidding me? Confidence in SL is on the DOWNswing, and obviously nobody but Stu wants to "invest" in your school. Why else would so very many parents do everything they possibly can to pupil place their children out of SL and take on the transportation costs to get their kids to another school or "invest" in private schools just to get as far away as they can from SL???

But wait, perhaps when you say "upswing" you really mean "uprising", because that's what the constant assault on RD'd parents from SL supporters feels like.

Cinderella, you are awfully defensive. I have nothing against you. Are you not happy with your decision? If you have concrete suggestions - and I don't mean 'things had better turn around fast because people are leaving in droves' please be in touch. The pyramid would welcome your input. Ironically, in my experience people are not leaving in droves - they are coming back, not withstanding your comments of doom and gloom. As I said before, and not insincerely, I wish you and your daughter luck. Do I wish you were going to be involved in the schools? Of course I do, although since you work for a living I am sure that there would be constraints on what you could do, at least during the day.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While I enjoyed reading the books on the SL list,
> I would not compare any of them to the Odyssey.
> At best, they are all nice beach books.
>
> "Into the Wild" could be read in day, about a very
> dumb young man, who went to Woodson HS, who
> probably had a mental illness. He hated his
> parents, for no obvious reasons. He died because
> of his ignorance, and his very high self esteem.
> I haven't seen the movie, but it's probably a good
> substitute for reading this very short book about
> a very annoying individual.
>
My guess is that the pre-AP students at Oakton will be hunkered down with Cliff Notes if they have to read the Odyssey during their summer "vacation," so most excellent of you to oblige with Neen Notes for the pre-IB crowd.

I guess you never took much to the idea of not speaking ill of the dead (Chris McCandless), huh? See if you get an Eddie Vedder song when you're gone.

You can't fix the situation without addressing the internal bleeding.

People are willing to work to make the schools better, but not the constant refrain that there's nothing wrong, we don't know what we're talking about, we really don't need to actively work towards removing incompetent or ineffective principals in our elementary schools and creating a culture that supports parent perspectives instead of perspectives that in essence only bolster the status quo.

I have yet to hear a single explanation about Langston Hughes teachers who live in Reston pupil placing their children at Carson. And I'm supposed to be the bad one for bringing it up? How about the people avoiding Terraset -- mostly white middle class people -- by pupil-placing into SVES. There isn't socioeconomic and racial undertones in what is happening there? There's a lot of game playing the pyramid that is quite hush-hush. It's fine to talk about in private, but I guess the message is -- don't air your dirty laundry in public.



Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>The parent community in South Reston is small,
> and you need all the support you can get<<<
>
> Wasn't that one of the major reasons for
> redistricting? The PTSA wanted more parents
> involved at South Lakes.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > still waiting Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Asked for the pupil placed numbers from FCPS
> > and
> > > still waiting.
> >
> > Isn't that available on line, a board docs
> > document? I seem to recall that it was posted
> > during the RD meeting.
>
> They had the pupil placement numbers already
> posted during the RD meeting? I would think a
> more accurate figure of the placement numbers
> would be...now?

No, sorry. Someone here linked to the board docs document last fall. It was a report to the school board by Alice Farling, in October. It contained all the schools with their pupil placement numbers. I think it was used to refute what Bruce Butler said, that more students pupil placed into SL than out. The reality was that about twice as many pupil placed OUT of South Lakes.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Pot, meet kettle. Neen, you are the only poster who names names, as far as I can tell (think Caroline Hemenway and her child) and for you to chide others for 'attacking' is laughable.


>
> Just curious, since you know where Cinderella
> lives, where she sent her children to school, can
> we assume that you know her and her daughters? Or
> are you simply making this up as you go along?
>
> If you know who she is, feel free to name names.
> Put up, or stop the silly assumptions. Defend
> your school, and your choices, without the
> assumptions and attacks, unless you do know who
> she is and are familiar with her family and her
> 'wealthy' circumstances.

I know of one teacher whose child pupil-placed to Carson, and the reason was of a personal nature and had nothing to do with the school. Said child is attending SL next year. Don't spread rumors when you don't have all the facts, please. As for removing bad principals, I can name several who should go, and I know several parents who have worked to replace them. Perhaps your beef should be with Betsey Goodman, not the parents who are still involved in the schools, despite the bad principals. I implore you again to stop posting inaccurate and generalized statements about the parents in the pyramid and what they think. You cannot possibly know what they think - only the ones you are in contact with.

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So, when Westfield was built and they moved Floris
> kids from Oakton to Westfield, are we to assume
> that they were bringing in more high-performing
> kids to mask the low performers at McNair?

Glass -

Your analogy is ahistorical -

The part of McNair that goes to Westfield was part of Floris when we were redistricted to Westfield in 2000. McNair wasn't completed until 2001. The 2001 McNair redistricting didn't affect the HS boundaries.

Just one of the many redistrictings of Floris Staff couldn't include in their response to Stuy's question about the number of Floris redistrictings given how cleverly Stuy phrased it.

Here's what to do.

Plan a meeting with Betsy Goodman, the principals of the Reston schools and the parents who have placed their kids in private school, and see what can be done to bring them back. When people leave the schools, you ask them why. Keep the meeting private if you like so that it deals with issues instead of publicity.

The principals should exercise leadership and care when people feel their community school is not serving their child's needs. We all know at this point how weak the elementary school principals are here.

Even if it take several years to build up Hughes under the new principal, if people have a better experience in the elementary schools, we will have a stronger community and not lose students and families early.

Our experiences differ, but it does not mean our goals diverge. Think about it. Common goals can be built on divergent experiences.

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cinderella, you are awfully defensive. I have
> nothing against you. Are you not happy with your
> decision? If you have concrete suggestions - and
> I don't mean 'things had better turn around fast
> because people are leaving in droves' please be in
> touch. The pyramid would welcome your input.
> Ironically, in my experience people are not
> leaving in droves - they are coming back, not
> withstanding your comments of doom and gloom. As
> I said before, and not insincerely, I wish you and
> your daughter luck. Do I wish you were going to
> be involved in the schools? Of course I do,
> although since you work for a living I am sure
> that there would be constraints on what you could
> do, at least during the day.

Neenologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > While I enjoyed reading the books on the SL
> list,
> > I would not compare any of them to the Odyssey.
>
> > At best, they are all nice beach books.
> >
> > "Into the Wild" could be read in day, about a
> very
> > dumb young man, who went to Woodson HS, who
> > probably had a mental illness. He hated his
> > parents, for no obvious reasons. He died
> because
> > of his ignorance, and his very high self esteem.
>
> > I haven't seen the movie, but it's probably a
> good
> > substitute for reading this very short book
> about
> > a very annoying individual.
> >
> My guess is that the pre-AP students at Oakton
> will be hunkered down with Cliff Notes if they
> have to read the Odyssey during their summer
> "vacation," so most excellent of you to oblige
> with Neen Notes for the pre-IB crowd.
>
> I guess you never took much to the idea of not
> speaking ill of the dead (Chris McCandless), huh?
> See if you get an Eddie Vedder song when you're
> gone.

Haha. I suppose it's a good cautionary tale to young people, don't be arrogant, don't think you know something that you don't, self esteem doesn't make up for knowledge, don't burn all your money in a fit of pique, and don't hate your parents because they let you do whatever you wanted, paid for your college, and provided you with everything you ever desired. That path does not turn out well in the end. I assume that most high school kids are smart enough to know those lessons, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt them to have it reinforced. Plus, they can read the entire book in a couple of days.

Reading the Odyssey Cliff Notes over the summer in high school will prevent having to do it in college. College students often have more fun things to do.

Repost:

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know of one teacher whose child pupil-placed to
> Carson, and the reason was of a personal nature
> and had nothing to do with the school. Said child
> is attending SL next year. Don't spread rumors
> when you don't have all the facts, please. As for
> removing bad principals, I can name several who
> should go, and I know several parents who have
> worked to replace them. Perhaps your beef should
> be with Betsey Goodman, not the parents who are
> still involved in the schools, despite the bad
> principals. I implore you again to stop posting
> inaccurate and generalized statements about the
> parents in the pyramid and what they think. You
> cannot possibly know what they think - only the
> ones you are in contact with.

Thank you, Cinderella for the constructive post. Perhaps you should join the SL pyramid yahoo group and post your comments there, instead of here. They would be welcome there. Incidentally, BB is already doing what you suggest and his approach is being handed down, so hopefully some principals will follow suit.

I don't believe my statements are inaccurate. Your statements reflect your knowledge base and conversations, and my statements reflect mine.

I have a major beef with Betsy Goodman. It's pretty well known she wants to coast into retirement and is incompetent.

However, I also have a beef with parents who are forthright with concerns and get thrown under the bus by other parents who say nothing is wrong and tell my daughter good riddance that she is gone because we're supposedly hoity-toity and whatever other words you want to call us.

The best advocates you have for removing bad principals are parents who left due to the poor leadership. Every parent who leaves is one less ally you have in your fight.

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know of one teacher whose child pupil-placed to
> Carson, and the reason was of a personal nature
> and had nothing to do with the school. Said child
> is attending SL next year. Don't spread rumors
> when you don't have all the facts, please. As for
> removing bad principals, I can name several who
> should go, and I know several parents who have
> worked to replace them. Perhaps your beef should
> be with Betsey Goodman, not the parents who are
> still involved in the schools, despite the bad
> principals. I implore you again to stop posting
> inaccurate and generalized statements about the
> parents in the pyramid and what they think. You
> cannot possibly know what they think - only the
> ones you are in contact with.

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know of one teacher whose child pupil-placed to
> Carson, and the reason was of a personal nature
> and had nothing to do with the school. Said child
> is attending SL next year. Don't spread rumors
> when you don't have all the facts, please. As for
> removing bad principals, I can name several who
> should go, and I know several parents who have
> worked to replace them. Perhaps your beef should
> be with Betsey Goodman, not the parents who are
> still involved in the schools, despite the bad
> principals. I implore you again to stop posting
> inaccurate and generalized statements about the
> parents in the pyramid and what they think. You
> cannot possibly know what they think - only the
> ones you are in contact with.

What is so wrong with posting about people that tell you something? The fact that you, Glass Slipper, don't know them personnaly? Doesn't everyone get their information from other sources? I spoke with a teacher from LH 3 years ago who told me that whatever I do, DO NOT send your child to LH. And she is a teacher there! Why, according to you, can't we quote the source? This is not inaccurate or generalized - it's true and specific.

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Repost:
>
> Glass Slipper Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I know of one teacher whose child pupil-placed
> to
> > Carson, and the reason was of a personal nature
> > and had nothing to do with the school. Said
> child
> > is attending SL next year. Don't spread rumors
> > when you don't have all the facts, please. As
> for
> > removing bad principals, I can name several who
> > should go, and I know several parents who have
> > worked to replace them. Perhaps your beef
> should
> > be with Betsey Goodman, not the parents who are
> > still involved in the schools, despite the bad
> > principals. I implore you again to stop
> posting
> > inaccurate and generalized statements about the
> > parents in the pyramid and what they think.
> You
> > cannot possibly know what they think - only the
> > ones you are in contact with.

And you know MUCH more than Cinderella because.............????

I agree, the administration needs to remove bad principals, but why would they? That only happens when the administrators get sick of the complaints. Otherwise, why would they know, or care?

Or, do you think there is some other reason why it took the Madison community three years to get rid of a bad principal and South Lakes seven years? Both Principals were women, both were minorities, and both disliked by parents, students, and teachers. What accounted for the differences in time?

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you, Cinderella for the constructive post.
> Perhaps you should join the SL pyramid yahoo group
> and post your comments there, instead of here.
> They would be welcome there. Incidentally, BB is
> already doing what you suggest and his approach is
> being handed down, so hopefully some principals
> will follow suit.

Hahahaha........I don't think that she would be welcome to their private forum.

When I met with Amy Monticchio, I asked what pressure would be brought to bear on the elementary school principals in light of what she wanted to accomplish. She is a very ambitious woman with ambitious goals for the school, but it was very clear to me she could not accomplish this without significant changes in the elementary schools.

She shrugged and said she could not focus on such things at this point.

This isn't hearsay -- it's a quote.

It was a very disheartening meeting from that perspective.

I am aware of the SL pyramid group, but not clear on how it is advocating for change. It seemed to be a means to communicate about positive things in the pyramid, not a means to advocate for change.





Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you, Cinderella for the constructive post.
> Perhaps you should join the SL pyramid yahoo group
> and post your comments there, instead of here.
> They would be welcome there. Incidentally, BB is
> already doing what you suggest and his approach is
> being handed down, so hopefully some principals
> will follow suit.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glass Slipper Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Repost:
> >
> > Glass Slipper Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I know of one teacher whose child
> pupil-placed
> > to
> > > Carson, and the reason was of a personal
> nature
> > > and had nothing to do with the school. Said
> > child
> > > is attending SL next year. Don't spread
> rumors
> > > when you don't have all the facts, please.
> As
> > for
> > > removing bad principals, I can name several
> who
> > > should go, and I know several parents who
> have
> > > worked to replace them. Perhaps your beef
> > should
> > > be with Betsey Goodman, not the parents who
> are
> > > still involved in the schools, despite the
> bad
> > > principals. I implore you again to stop
> > posting
> > > inaccurate and generalized statements about
> the
> > > parents in the pyramid and what they think.
> > You
> > > cannot possibly know what they think - only
> the
> > > ones you are in contact with.
>
> And you know MUCH more than Cinderella
> because.............????
>
> I agree, the administration needs to remove bad
> principals, but why would they? That only happens
> when the administrators get sick of the
> complaints. Otherwise, why would they know, or
> care?
>
> Or, do you think there is some other reason why it
> took the Madison community three years to get rid
> of a bad principal and South Lakes seven years?
> Both Principals were women, both were minorities,
> and both disliked by parents, students, and
> teachers. What accounted for the differences in
> time?


School Board, so often alleged to be in cahoots with the SLHS cabal, didn't give a shit about SLHS.

I am being truthful in saying that the parents and children I know in the IB program at SL are very happy. They're happy with the atmosphere in the school, and the teachers are supposed to be excellent and very caring.

Sorry. It's not all doom and gloom.

You have to take the good with the bad. I'm more than willing to acknowledge the bad, but perhaps you in turn could acknowledge the good.

It's a 2 way street.

This is a different question as to whether IB is the right fit for everyone, fyi. But if you think it could be a fit, I don't know a single person involved in the IB program who regrets is or doesn't think it is worthwhile.

Rerouted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> confidence in SL is on the upswing and now is the
> time to invest in the schools.
>
> Glass Slipper, these are your words. Are you
> kidding me? Confidence in SL is on the DOWNswing,
> and obviously nobody but Stu wants to "invest" in
> your school. Why else would so very many parents
> do everything they possibly can to pupil place
> their children out of SL and take on the
> transportation costs to get their kids to another
> school or "invest" in private schools just to get
> as far away as they can from SL???
>
> But wait, perhaps when you say "upswing" you
> really mean "uprising", because that's what the
> constant assault on RD'd parents from SL
> supporters feels like.

Haven't posted here, in oh, maybe 200 PAGES but had thoughts I just had to share.

I live in a "newer" Reston neighborhood in North Reston which is districted to South Lakes. We too had many parents in the elementary schools initially who sent their children to Edlin, St. Joes, Green Hedges, St. Mark's, Nysmith, etc. They were scared of Forest Edge. We even had a family move to Great Falls because when they toured the school, they didn't see many kids who looked like their blonde little boy. This directly from the parent - don't start calling me racist.

Well it's 10 years later - guess where most of the kids are now - yes, Forest Edge. Guess where most are going to middle school - yep, LH. Guess where many are going to high school - South Lakes. There are still a few who have pupil placed to Madison or Oakton for band, but overall the neighborhood has younger kids who followed the redistricting very closely. If I were a betting person, I would say that a significant number of kids will go to South Lakes.


I guess these affluent upper middle class college educated people just don't care about their children's education. Maybe we should let them know...


While the principal at Forest Edge isn't perfect, and there are still teachers to avoid, like at EVERY school, most of those previous private school parents will tell you that their kids are getting the same or better education at Forest Edge. They were SOLD on private schools by the private schools themselves who touted their superior education without test scores or statistics to prove them out. Funny when their Nysmith kids didn't get into the Forest Edge GT center...

There are still a few problems here and there mostly having to do with special education. I have to be somewhat sympathetic when the schools are to equally educate very high functioning truly gifted children, asperger children, downs children, dyslexics, and plain old regular kids along with children whose parents don't provide a proper home environment (food, adequate rest, good role models, emphasis on education, homework, etc).

And just to throw it out there - I also know quite a few Great Falls people who have problems with Forestville and Great Falls elementary. They don't see their children getting individualized education. They are told that their children will be "fine" because their parents are involved and read to them and provide them opportunities like Score or Kumon or provide tutors if they need extra help. Many of my Great Falls friends send their children to private school - because they can.

Forest Edge is the best school in the pyramid -- hands down, and by far.

I am pretty sure that you know that.

Many do not even come close.

So I believe what you are saying, but it doesn't not speak to the experiences parents have had elsewhere in the feeder schools.

Were your principal to change, things could change very quickly at Forest Edge. Much is due to his leadership.


Get it right Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Haven't posted here, in oh, maybe 200 PAGES but
> had thoughts I just had to share.
>
> I live in a "newer" Reston neighborhood in North
> Reston which is districted to South Lakes. We too
> had many parents in the elementary schools
> initially who sent their children to Edlin, St.
> Joes, Green Hedges, St. Mark's, Nysmith, etc. They
> were scared of Forest Edge. We even had a family
> move to Great Falls because when they toured the
> school, they didn't see many kids who looked like
> their blonde little boy. This directly from the
> parent - don't start calling me racist.
>
> Well it's 10 years later - guess where most of the
> kids are now - yes, Forest Edge. Guess where most
> are going to middle school - yep, LH. Guess where
> many are going to high school - South Lakes.
> There are still a few who have pupil placed to
> Madison or Oakton for band, but overall the
> neighborhood has younger kids who followed the
> redistricting very closely. If I were a betting
> person, I would say that a significant number of
> kids will go to South Lakes.
>
>
> I guess these affluent upper middle class college
> educated people just don't care about their
> children's education. Maybe we should let them
> know...
>
>
> While the principal at Forest Edge isn't perfect,
> and there are still teachers to avoid, like at
> EVERY school, most of those previous private
> school parents will tell you that their kids are
> getting the same or better education at Forest
> Edge. They were SOLD on private schools by the
> private schools themselves who touted their
> superior education without test scores or
> statistics to prove them out. Funny when their
> Nysmith kids didn't get into the Forest Edge GT
> center...
>
> There are still a few problems here and there
> mostly having to do with special education. I
> have to be somewhat sympathetic when the schools
> are to equally educate very high functioning truly
> gifted children, asperger children, downs
> children, dyslexics, and plain old regular kids
> along with children whose parents don't provide a
> proper home environment (food, adequate rest, good
> role models, emphasis on education, homework,
> etc).
>
> And just to throw it out there - I also know quite
> a few Great Falls people who have problems with
> Forestville and Great Falls elementary. They
> don't see their children getting individualized
> education. They are told that their children will
> be "fine" because their parents are involved and
> read to them and provide them opportunities like
> Score or Kumon or provide tutors if they need
> extra help. Many of my Great Falls friends send
> their children to private school - because they
> can.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > 1) Since SATs are only taken by college bound students, it's a self-selected group. Despite their problems, SOLs are a better measure for comparisons amongst VA HSes since all students have to take them.< <

Sure, except to pass the SOLs a student has to get the equivalent of a D and the Post doesn't publish a table with the SOL results for all the FCPS high schools every fall as it does for the SATs, so that the SATs are the yardstick widely used for bragging among parents.

> > 2) I have a suspicion that the Wake President would be a bit unhappy with a class of kids who only have 400s but somehow found high schools bad enough to give them all As... In other words, I suspect what he meant to say was, SATs alone are not as good a predictor as other single measures. I also suspect that SATs in combination with other measures (e.g. GPA) together provide a better measure than either alone.< <

As we often say in court, the Op-ed piece speaks for itself and I commend it to you.

SATs are not a predictor of college performance. No correlation. Nada. Period.

GPA and class rank are the best predictor of college performance. No qualifications. Period.

Hatch is not the first to say this. Those of us who have followed the SAT have known this for quite some time. A year or so ago there was a great series in Atlantic Monthly on the development of the SAT and its current discontents.

As for your hypotheitcal, while its possible that there exists a kid who gets a 4.0 and is ranked in the top 10% of her class but bombs the SAT, but it is a prospect so remote as to be beyond consideration. If such a child exists every college I know would take her in a flash, especially over the kid with 1600, 2.0 GPA and in the bottom quartile in his class, no contest.

> > 3) I suspect much of Wake's problem with the SAT & prediction is that SATs are improperly centered for Wake's applicant pool. An instrument that's centered on the general college going population (and was recentered downward about 10 years ago or so...) isn't particularly effective in differentiating amongst the kids 2 SDs above the mean or higher - where Wake's applicant pool is. If the tests were hard enough to be centered where Wake's population is - a la the AMC/AIME math tests - I suspect Wake might find some use in the results.< <

Actaully that is not the problem. The SATS for Wake's middle quartiles for admitted freshman were 1220-1390 (old scale). Hardly in the stratospheric levels your comment suggested.

The majority of admissions officers across the country agree with Hatch. It was in reaction to this growing consensus among its customers that the College Board added the essay as a last ditch effort to keep its test relevant.

The SATs are failing in predicting who will succeed during freshman year which is its intended function as conceived by Conant, their inventor and Harvard president who sought a means to get the non-prep school smart kids into his college and keep the prep school trained "idiot sons of the idle rich" (Tip O'Neil's phrase not Conant's) out.

I fully expect that the SATs will disappear before much longer.

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Perhaps you should join the SL pyramid yahoo group and post your comments there, instead of here. They would be welcome there.< <

You mean the yahoo SL boundary study group that blocked people from participating who criticized IB, SL or the ultimate RD alignment that was adopted. Yeah, that crowd is real open to constructive criticism. Not.

Cinderella, posting there is a better use of your time since you won't be censured by Stuy sycophants on that yahoo group.

Stats Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the record $45,000 is close to unemployment in
> Fairfax County. If you think car mechanic and
> painters make $45,000 you better check your
> numbers again. Many make $60-90,000 a year.
> Heating A/C and plumbers can make over $100,000 a
> year if they hustle, but must only work half days
> and are at the bar by 2pm.

45k ain't much but I wouldn't say its close to unemployment.

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cinderella, you are awfully defensive. I have
> nothing against you. Are you not happy with your
> decision? If you have concrete suggestions - and
> I don't mean 'things had better turn around fast
> because people are leaving in droves' please be in
> touch. The pyramid would welcome your input.
> Ironically, in my experience people are not
> leaving in droves - they are coming back, not
> withstanding your comments of doom and gloom. As
> I said before, and not insincerely, I wish you and
> your daughter luck. Do I wish you were going to
> be involved in the schools? Of course I do,
> although since you work for a living I am sure
> that there would be constraints on what you could
> do, at least during the day.

If people are returning to Reston schools, why was there a need to redistrict?

Get it right Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Haven't posted here, in oh, maybe 200 PAGES but
> had thoughts I just had to share.
>
> I live in a "newer" Reston neighborhood in North
> Reston which is districted to South Lakes. We too
> had many parents in the elementary schools
> initially who sent their children to Edlin, St.
> Joes, Green Hedges, St. Mark's, Nysmith, etc. They
> were scared of Forest Edge. We even had a family
> move to Great Falls because when they toured the
> school, they didn't see many kids who looked like
> their blonde little boy. This directly from the
> parent - don't start calling me racist.
>
> Well it's 10 years later - guess where most of the
> kids are now - yes, Forest Edge. Guess where most
> are going to middle school - yep, LH. Guess where
> many are going to high school - South Lakes.
> There are still a few who have pupil placed to
> Madison or Oakton for band, but overall the
> neighborhood has younger kids who followed the
> redistricting very closely. If I were a betting
> person, I would say that a significant number of
> kids will go to South Lakes.
>
>
> I guess these affluent upper middle class college
> educated people just don't care about their
> children's education. Maybe we should let them
> know...
>
>
> While the principal at Forest Edge isn't perfect,
> and there are still teachers to avoid, like at
> EVERY school, most of those previous private
> school parents will tell you that their kids are
> getting the same or better education at Forest
> Edge. They were SOLD on private schools by the
> private schools themselves who touted their
> superior education without test scores or
> statistics to prove them out. Funny when their
> Nysmith kids didn't get into the Forest Edge GT
> center...
>
> There are still a few problems here and there
> mostly having to do with special education. I
> have to be somewhat sympathetic when the schools
> are to equally educate very high functioning truly
> gifted children, asperger children, downs
> children, dyslexics, and plain old regular kids
> along with children whose parents don't provide a
> proper home environment (food, adequate rest, good
> role models, emphasis on education, homework,
> etc).
>
> And just to throw it out there - I also know quite
> a few Great Falls people who have problems with
> Forestville and Great Falls elementary. They
> don't see their children getting individualized
> education. They are told that their children will
> be "fine" because their parents are involved and
> read to them and provide them opportunities like
> Score or Kumon or provide tutors if they need
> extra help. Many of my Great Falls friends send
> their children to private school - because they
> can.

He's BAAAAAAACK.

Somebody must still be going to private schools since 60 8th graders from private schools got into TJ this year. Since only a very small percentage of private schoolers apply to TJ, you can do the math. We have lots of students in private schools in Fairfax county.

On top of that, the private school 8th graders are accepted at a much higher rate than public school 8th graders. http://www.fcps.edu/mediapub/pressrel/tjhsstadmisstats_08.pdf
We all know that TJ isn't accepting those kids easily. They would prefer to accept NO students from private schools, so those students must be VERY impressive. Sending kids to private schools appears to be a good decision, they're getting a better education.

>>>As for your hypotheitcal, while its possible that there exists a kid who gets a 4.0 and is ranked in the top 10% of her class but bombs the SAT, but it is a prospect so remote as to be beyond consideration. If such a child exists every college I know would take her in a flash, especially over the kid with 1600, 2.0 GPA and in the bottom quartile in his class, no contest.<<<

Wouldn't that depend on the high school the student attended and the courses she took? A 4.0 GPA from a small town in southside that offers no AP courses and no math above Algebra II, makes that GPA less than impressive. BUT, if she also has a decently high SAT, she might be able to do college work. That's why colleges have always looked at both GPA and SAT. The only reason not to do that is for affirmative action.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wouldn't that depend on the high school the student attended and the courses she took? A 4.0 GPA from a small town in southside that offers no AP courses and no math above Algebra II, makes that GPA less than impressive.< <

Could you identify which high school in Va meets that description?

Even if one did exist, because seats at Va public universities are allocated geographically to each high school, this hypothetical kid is getting a seat in a Va public college (UVa?), probably ahead a higher achieving kid from Reston.

> > That's why colleges have always looked at both GPA and SAT. The only reason not to do that is for affirmative action.< <

Did you even bother to read the Op-ed piece?

Bates, Hamilton, Holy Cross, Middlebury and Bowdoin have all stopped using the SAT. And the number of colleges dropping the SAT is growing.

Why are you so protective of this ineffective charade?

Do you own stock in the College Board? (yes, I know its a not for profit.)

Get it right Wrote: "I have to be somewhat sympathetic when the schools are to equally educate ... children whose parents don't provide a proper home environment (food, adequate rest, good role models, emphasis on education, homework, etc)."

Now you've done it. You have revealed yourself as "smug" and "rich" to several pyramid supporters. Border Warrior and Glass Slipper are especially fond of using such "insults" to describe people who DO provide other than substandard housing to their children. They seem to label everything else as "McMansions."

Pyramid pushers like Glass Slipper claim: "If you have concrete suggestions - and I don't mean 'things had better turn around fast because people are leaving in droves' please be in touch. The pyramid would welcome your input." Don't even try it. The only input that the pyramid seems to want is to go along with the party line of "Everything is on the upswing. Try it - you'll like it!"

We send our kids to the Potomac School because we feel they provide better value than Flint Hill. It is a longer drive but worth it. True, the teacher student ratio is a little higher, but the teachers all have better backgrounds.

As for those who have questioned the motive of the high number of parents in Reston that send their kids to private schools, we have plenty of money to do so and would never send our kids to public schools regardless of the school system. Many of the Reston parents attended the same private schools themselves and privates school are a family tradition.

As for those in the County that want to mock us by calling us "Restonite Richies," we work the same long hard hours as you do.

Thomas More Wrote:
> ... Even if one did exist, because seats at Va public
> universities are allocated geographically to each
> high school, this hypothetical kid is getting a
> seat in a Va public college (UVa?), probably ahead
> a higher achieving kid from Reston.
>
----------------
Now we are back to the issue of the relatively low GPAs in this county and FAIRGRADE.

If not SATs, what should colleges use to decide if students are ready for them? Each state has its own version of the SOLs. Can they somehow be "normed" so that students who have not yet mastered English and Algebra II and geometry (more or less English and math to be required, depending on the college) are first vectored to some sort of prep school or community college?

Loli Wrote: "As for those in the County that want to mock us by calling us Restonite Richies," we work the same long hard hours as you do."

Why is "rich" an insult in Reston?

Okay, you obsessive compulsives have been hashing and rehashing this same stuff, ad nauseum, for almost a year and over 300 pages now.

My question is, how often do you tear yourselves away from your computer screens to check on your little GT/AP prodigies? Do you know where they are? Have they snuck out to attend a gang bang in the foreclosed house down the street?

I bet your kids are enjoying the freedom from parental supervision that this redistricting has caused!

Stay? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Loli Wrote: "As for those in the County that want
> to mock us by calling us Restonite Richies," we
> work the same long hard hours as you do."
>
> Why is "rich" an insult in Reston?


Stay?:

In your breaks from charitable work, you might want to read this more carefully. Loli appears to note that others -- in the county, meaning FFX County -- may insult Restonians who send their kids to private schools, b/c

(i) they can,

(ii) have a family traditions, or

(iii) like the numerous World Bank, IMF, Embassies and international organizations staff living in Reston, have their employers pay the tuition.

It does not say that Restonians alone use this insult to evince a deep-seated resentment of wealth and rich.

Au contraire. In fact, many of the SLHS boosters on this too-long thread have long argued against the mistaken, oft-used stereotype of Reston as a Lowest-Common-Denominator, substandard housing, socialist, hip hop kingdom.

Some of my best friends in Reston send their kids to, teach at, and are fully committed to Flint Hill, the Potomac School, Nysmith, etc. But they also don't spread bile about SLHS and Hughes, b/c they know better. How quaint. Informed opinion and the exercise of choice made possible by information and wherewithal.

I note further that you are the one who used substandard housing in the context of Reston and SLHS....at least twice. And I would suggest that when you make such assertions about a town with a median house price average of $580K, your position appears rather baseless.

Neen Wrote:

>... If people are returning to Reston schools, why was
> there a need to redistrict?

I don't have anything beyond anecdotal information but many of the people I know in Reston have older children - college or adults.

Aging in place - homeowners still working or bought so long ago that they have second properties. Ever check the average age of owners in sea colony in Bethany?

Then why dont we just shut down Reston Schools, if there are no students in reston. Have a few open for the few students there. Why force students from other areas to attend Reston schools. We dont want to come to reston schools. We bought houses far away from reston and dont like to forced into reston schools that dont perform as well as other schools.

> I don't have anything beyond anecdotal information
> but many of the people I know in Reston have older
> children - college or adults.



taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
>
> >... If people are returning to Reston schools,
> why was
> > there a need to redistrict?
>
> I don't have anything beyond anecdotal information
> but many of the people I know in Reston have older
> children - college or adults.
>
> Aging in place - homeowners still working or
> bought so long ago that they have second
> properties. Ever check the average age of owners
> in sea colony in Bethany?

There are a number of second home owners in my neighborhood, and many of them don't have college age kids.

They fixed up their existing home, and liking it, decide their money was better spent on a second home they could enjoy. I like my home quite a bit and it would take me quite a bit to move. I like the kids in my neighborhood, and I like walking around around dusk and seeing people ride bikes with their kids and walk around and chat.

Reston has money, but by and large, it is not flashy money.

Having said that, I do think there are people leaving the public schools for private school in the elementary school years, and something should be done to address the situation. Yes, of course there will always be people who will send their children to private school anyway, but that's not what we're talking about.


taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
>
> >... If people are returning to Reston schools,
> why was
> > there a need to redistrict?
>
> I don't have anything beyond anecdotal information
> but many of the people I know in Reston have older
> children - college or adults.
>
> Aging in place - homeowners still working or
> bought so long ago that they have second
> properties. Ever check the average age of owners
> in sea colony in Bethany?

I know a number of dissatisfied parents at Fox Mill, Crossfield, Aldrin and other schools.

I've spoken with friends there, and they find the schools to be overwhelmingly mediocre.

The issue isn't Reston. It's FCPS.

FCPS can take a good school with a good reputation, switch the principal out, and drive the reputation into the ground and chase parents out within a matter of 3-4 years. It happens ALL THE TIME.

People buy their homes in Oakton or wherever thinking that nothing will happen to them. You have little say in who the principal will be, and things could change very quickly for you.

So if we don't work together to change the School Board, get the institutional players out and give parents a real voice, we aren't any better off. It's just that simple.

close down these schools Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then why dont we just shut down Reston Schools, if
> there are no students in reston. Have a few open
> for the few students there. Why force students
> from other areas to attend Reston schools. We dont
> want to come to reston schools. We bought houses
> far away from reston and dont like to forced into
> reston schools that dont perform as well as other
> schools.
>
> > I don't have anything beyond anecdotal
> information
> > but many of the people I know in Reston have
> older
> > children - college or adults.
>
>
>
> taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> > >... If people are returning to Reston schools,
> > why was
> > > there a need to redistrict?
> >
> > I don't have anything beyond anecdotal
> information
> > but many of the people I know in Reston have
> older
> > children - college or adults.
> >
> > Aging in place - homeowners still working or
> > bought so long ago that they have second
> > properties. Ever check the average age of
> owners
> > in sea colony in Bethany?

There has unquestionably been too much censuring of opinion in the SL pyramid.

People are nervous to speak their minds for fear of being called names and ostracized.

Loyalty uber alles is not my cup of tea, and I don't believe it is a recipe for success in the medium to long term because it alienates too many people.

I'm all for excellence, but not for group think.


Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glass Slipper Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Perhaps you should join the SL pyramid yahoo
> group and post your comments there, instead of
> here. They would be welcome there.< <
>
> You mean the yahoo SL boundary study group that
> blocked people from participating who criticized
> IB, SL or the ultimate RD alignment that was
> adopted. Yeah, that crowd is real open to
> constructive criticism. Not.
>
> Cinderella, posting there is a better use of your
> time since you won't be censured by Stuy
> sycophants on that yahoo group.