HomeFairfax General ForumArrest/Ticket SearchWiki newPictures/VideosChatArticlesLinksAbout
Off-Topic :  Fairfax Underground fairfax underground logo
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Question For Gunholders
Posted by: Curseu1 ()
Date: April 05, 2012 03:18AM

Do you normally have your gun loaded and ready to fire when just walking around with it concealed? I ask this because Zimmerman had his gun loaded when getting out of the car looking for Trayvon. I'd assume yes, because if you need it, you wouldn't have time to fire. Also, do you unload your gun when you get home, and would you carry it with you to the grocery store at night? This is for people who have concelaed carry, just wondering when and where you bring your gun, and if it is always loaded.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: depends ()
Date: April 05, 2012 03:22AM

A lot of people will have it always ready to go if theyre carrying it. Some people in the car will keep it unchambered and chamber it if they see something suspicious or go into a bad neighborhood. But yes for the most part it will be ready to go if youre carrying it.

For at home it all depends on what the house is like. If you have children some people may have a trigger lock on it or keep it unloaded but if your single at least one will probably always be ready to go

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: lizzie ()
Date: April 05, 2012 03:25AM

Sure do ...

I have everything you said I wouldn't, HA!
#stillwinning

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: Got to Know ()
Date: April 05, 2012 05:23AM

Cant said to much about them guns that PO muther fuker it all over the place and migh jusdt be on of ya. I Go hard with a muther fuker.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: Ralph Pootawn ()
Date: April 05, 2012 08:18AM

I don't have a round chambered when I'm carrying concealed. That's just me. Many people do, though.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: justsayin ()
Date: April 05, 2012 08:33AM

I didn't used to carry chambered but if there is ever a case I need to draw, it needs to be chambered already. I hope that never happens but if I need it I don't want nerves or surprise or whatever else may be happening to factor into an extra action of chambering the first round, so after concluding that I began carrying chambered. Safety (or safeties) are always on for me, which some say is still too restrictive but I'm not comfortable with that. I don't blame anyone for carrying unchambered, no one should be carrying in a way that makes them uncomfortable.

If I am storing in the car while traveling it will usually be unchambered. In the house everything is unloaded but I keep loaded magazines in the safe.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: BB*X ()
Date: April 05, 2012 08:49AM

I used to carry unchambered when I first received my CHP. Unless you practice drawing and chambering a round in one motion that is going to be useless in an emergency so I started carrying chambered with the safety on. In the case of my singel/double action I'll chamber a round and then use the decocker to drop the hammer.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: Bang Pow ()
Date: April 05, 2012 09:11AM

I don't carry a gun.

Having typed that, =IF= I carried a gun it would have a round chambered and be ready to fire with one hand (or maybe two fingers - one to release safety if that type of safety, one to pull trigger).

But...

There are guns that apparently are good for carrying around ready to shoot and there are guns that aren't good to do so because they're not safe from, say, dropping. I read (when looking into info about a semi-auto I own) that it is NOT safe to carry around with a round chambered even if uncocked since the appropriate drop can cause the firing pin to do its thang...

So...

If YOU are going to carry a gun around ready to shoot, be sure its the right type of gun to do that with.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: JBass ()
Date: April 05, 2012 09:29AM

I have put a lot of thought into this throughout the years....

I knew one donkey that carried a weapon without ammo at all. What an idiot. Your weapon becomes a liability at that point.

I never carry with my semi-auto chambered. If I am ever forced to draw it, I will chamber as I draw. Yes, I practice. This causes an inherent problem though. The act of cambering it takes an already volatile situation and adds an added aggressive element (cue click-clack sound from a pump action shotgun here) Its a scary sound to hear the action of a gun articulate.

Now with that said, I have always figured if a situation warrants me drawing on someone it will most likely result in me firing. Im not the police and Im not Zimmerman, I dont carry to insert myself into situations. If I draw my weapon the threshold where I fear for the life of myself or someone else has already been crossed.

My .38 revolver is another story as they are always 'chambered' but the trigger resistance on the .38 is much higher than the Glock.

As far as when I carry it... I try to carry it at all times when Im not drinking. It has taken many years to build up to but my philosophy is if you normally carry it, the time you need it will be when you dont have it. Murphy is a biotch, ya know.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: April 05, 2012 02:47PM

JBass, what sort of firearms do you own?

Blessed are the murderous.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: JBass ()
Date: April 05, 2012 02:56PM

Glock 30 .45
S&W featherweight .38
Mossberg pump action 12 Ga
and a couple of antique longbarrels

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: April 05, 2012 03:08PM

JBass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glock 30 .45
> S&W featherweight .38
> Mossberg pump action 12 Ga
> and a couple of antique longbarrels






LOL The Smith & Wesson J Frames are called airweights, not featherweights. Damn, you fail at bullshitting.

Blessed are the murderous.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: JBass ()
Date: April 05, 2012 03:31PM

Oh, eesh. Its so cute when you get flustered. Google search .38 featherweight. You are so silly.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: April 05, 2012 03:35PM

JBass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, eesh. Its so cute when you get flustered.
> Google search .38 featherweight. You are so
> silly.






I can google "three headed monster", or "purple snow leopard", it doesn't change the fact it is called airweight. You don't know what you are talking about.

Blessed are the murderous.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: turn the targets ()
Date: April 05, 2012 03:35PM

It would be stupid to carry a semi auto without a round chambered. In a violent situation you normally would not have time to chamber a round. It looks good on tv when a detective says lets go get this guy and chambers a round. In real life a cop would laugh at a dummy who does that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: JBass ()
Date: April 05, 2012 03:38PM

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JBass Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Oh, eesh. Its so cute when you get flustered.
> > Google search .38 featherweight. You are so
> > silly.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I can google "three headed monster", or "purple
> snow leopard", it doesn't change the fact it is
> called airweight. You don't know what you are
> talking about.


*yawn*

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: JBass ()
Date: April 05, 2012 03:39PM

turn the targets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would be stupid to carry a semi auto without a
> round chambered. In a violent situation you
> normally would not have time to chamber a round.
> It looks good on tv when a detective says lets go
> get this guy and chambers a round. In real life a
> cop would laugh at a dummy who does that.


Well, Im not a cop and the Glock only has a trigger safety (Basically none at all) so you can Cheddar Bob yourself if you wanna but Ill keep the chamber empty till I really know someone is about to get shot!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: turn the targets ()
Date: April 05, 2012 03:52PM

I do not know any cops who keep a gun with an empty chamber. My friend is one and they have only a few seconds to draw their weapon and fire at qualifications. Your time is limited so drawing and chambering a round is wasted time. Then they return the gun to the holster after firing.

If they were to follow the draw, chamber and shoot as you suggest then out of instinct on the second phase they would draw and chamber another round at which time they can watch a live round being ejected uselessly to the ground.

Personal preference so whatever works for you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: Gunrunner ()
Date: April 05, 2012 05:43PM

What do they call the j-frames that are lighter than an Airweight?I know they are not that common.242,but don't they have a name too?
I like makarovs and Glocks.I carry loaded chamber.BTW, don't carry a Glock without using a holster.I use an inside the pants holster by Wild Bill's Concealment.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: April 05, 2012 05:49PM

Gunrunner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What do they call the j-frames that are lighter
> than an Airweight?







J Frames are just the snub nose revolvers made by Smith & Wesson. The "Airweight" is just a marketing term they use to advertise the lightweight alloy they use.

Blessed are the murderous.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: depends ()
Date: April 05, 2012 06:08PM

turn the targets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not know any cops who keep a gun with an
> empty chamber. My friend is one and they have only
> a few seconds to draw their weapon and fire at
> qualifications. Your time is limited so drawing
> and chambering a round is wasted time. Then they
> return the gun to the holster after firing.
>
> If they were to follow the draw, chamber and shoot
> as you suggest then out of instinct on the second
> phase they would draw and chamber another round at
> which time they can watch a live round being
> ejected uselessly to the ground.
>
> Personal preference so whatever works for you.

All cops always have their duty weapon chambered, they have too.

That said they also arent concealed carrying and put themselves in many more dangerous situations than most people do.

That said I agree with jbass a lot depends on the type of gun. Glocks arent very good for concealed carry chambered. Pretty much every time you hear of someone plaxicoing them self its with a glock. Having some sort of safety on the gun would be ideal, but a heavy first trigger pull like on sigs works too

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: dika-dika ()
Date: April 05, 2012 06:42PM

With my colts I don't normally carry with a round chambered. I practice an quick draw from the holster or in the waist belt, pulling back the slide, releasing, point, squeeze the trigger/double tap. It takes about 1 sec. It is for quick close-in engagement less than 15 ft and a center mass hit with the first two rounds. Now the next rounds are well aimed.

There are times I will chamber, with hammer cocked and safety on. You have to practice to remember to slide the safety down.

When you open carry suggest you not chamber because you are going to get stopped by the cops, so there might be some gun handling and you don't want the thing to go off.

A lot of gun owner have guns that they don't know how to operate, use, and breakdown clean so in a need situation they fail. It is more to it than looking at gun hanging on the wall. If you know how use your gun and correctly then it doesn't matter whatever its chambered or not.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2012 06:42PM by dika-dika.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: turn the target ()
Date: April 05, 2012 06:46PM

Many people have accidential shootings with Glocks for two reasons. One there are lots of Glocks out there. Two they are not familiar with the operation of the gun. Many of the accidental shootings are due to people removing the magazine then forgetting the one in the chamber.

I havent had a Glock for some time but if I recall you must pull the trigger to disassemble the slide to clean it, that could be a reason for all the shootings by accident.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: M3Tk6 ()
Date: April 05, 2012 08:03PM

Curseu1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you normally have your gun loaded and ready to
> fire when just walking around with it concealed?

Yes. Round in the chamber.

Also, do you unload your gun
> when you get home,

No.

>and would you carry it with you
> to the grocery store at night?

Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: wXeWY ()
Date: April 05, 2012 08:25PM

depends Wrote:

> Glocks arent very good for concealed
> carry chambered.

I disagree. The Glock 23/26/30 are ideal for concealed carry.

>Pretty much every time you hear
> of someone plaxicoing them self its with a glock.

Keep in mind many of the people you hear 'plaxicoing' themselves are gang bangers or gang banger want-to-bes, like Burress. i.e. - dipshits.

I would never recommend carrying a Glock without a proper holster (preferably Kydex), round in the chamber or not. But come to think of it, I wouldn't recommend carrying any gun without a holster . The guy in Spotslyvania who shot himself was Mexican carrying a Glock. Bad idea.

> Having some sort of safety on the gun would be
> ideal, but a heavy first trigger pull like on sigs
> works too

Of course a glock can have a huge trigger pull (NY Trigger for example) if you want.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: ben c ()
Date: April 05, 2012 09:18PM

"Zimmerman had his gun loaded when getting out of the car"

Depends on what you mean by loaded. I havent heard what type of gun he had. The only news I have heard came from the media which has been caught doctoring tapes so I dont trust them period.

When it comes to guns most media reporters know little to nothing about the operation or features of a gun. They often call semi automatics machine guns. Much will depend on the forensic evidence like powder burns to the kids shirt and so on.

If the Sanford Police did a crummy job of CSI then this case will be a tough one. It appears only two people know what happened and one is dead.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: April 05, 2012 09:20PM

ben c Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Zimmerman had his gun loaded when getting out of
> the car"
>
> Depends on what you mean by loaded. I havent heard
> what type of gun he had.






Zimmerman had a Kel Tec PF-9.

Blessed are the murderous.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: depends ()
Date: April 05, 2012 10:59PM

wXeWY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I disagree. The Glock 23/26/30 are ideal for
> concealed carry.

They may be the right size for most people but nothing makes them ideal over another gun and the lack of any sort of safety makes them less than ideal for most people

> Keep in mind many of the people you hear
> 'plaxicoing' themselves are gang bangers or gang
> banger want-to-bes, like Burress. i.e. -
> dipshits.
>
> I would never recommend carrying a Glock without a
> proper holster (preferably Kydex), round in the
> chamber or not. But come to think of it, I
> wouldn't recommend carrying any gun without a
> holster . The guy in Spotslyvania who shot
> himself was Mexican carrying a Glock. Bad idea.

Thats true a lot of it is just people being stupid. You should definitely always have a holster, but glocks are more prone to accidents then some other guns. The trigger pull is fairly light and theres no safety on them basically. They arent bad weapons, but personally I think theyre overrated.


> Of course a glock can have a huge trigger pull (NY
> Trigger for example) if you want.

True, as can any gun. But they dont have that out of the box unless its a state demanded requirement.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: 9mmMan ()
Date: April 06, 2012 01:05AM

ALWAYS ready to shoot. - chambered and decocked.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: gun ()
Date: April 07, 2012 07:49AM

So many threads about guns. How come?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: Barbie Girl ()
Date: April 07, 2012 08:47AM

gun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So many threads about guns. How come?


Guys that are insecure and have small wieners are all about the guns. Most of them have Mommy issues and having a gun makes them feel more secure. Sadly they put themselves at a greater risk of injury, death or long prison sentences just by carrying a gun. People who keep a locked gun or two at home for home security generally do not fall into the category that these concealed carry permit nut-jobs do.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: justsayin ()
Date: April 07, 2012 09:23AM

Well-articulated statement, fully backed by facts. Well done.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: Barbie Girl ()
Date: April 07, 2012 10:10AM

justsayin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well-articulated statement, fully backed by facts.
> Well done.


Thanks! Here are some more FACTS!

DID YOU KNOW? Where there are more guns, there are more gun deaths.
An estimated 41% of gun-related homicides and 94% of gun-related suicides would not occur under the same circumstances had no guns been present (Wiebe, p. 780).
Higher household gun ownership correlates with higher rates of homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings (Harvard Injury Control Center).
Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of suicide by a factor of 3 to 5 and increases the risk of suicide with a firearm by a factor of 17 (Kellermann, 1992, p. 467; Wiebe, p. 771).
Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of homicide by a factor of 3 (Kellermann, 1993, p. 1084).
DID YOU KNOW? On the whole, guns are more likely to raise the risk of injury than to confer protection.
A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a completed or attempted suicide (11x), criminal assault or homicide (7x), or unintentional shooting death or injury (4x) than to be used in a self-defense shooting. (Kellermann, 1998, p. 263).
Guns are used to intimidate and threaten 4 to 6 times more often than they are used to thwart crime (Hemenway, p. 269).
Every year there are only about 200 legally justified self-defense homicides by private citizens (FBI, Expanded Homicide Data, Table 15) compared with over 30,000 gun deaths (NCIPC).
A 2009 study found that people in possession of a gun are 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault (Branas).
DID YOU KNOW? Assaults and suicide attempts with firearms are much more likely to be fatal than those perpetrated with less lethal weapons or means. Removing guns saves lives.
There are five times as many deaths from gun assaults as from knife assaults, where the rates of assault with knives and with guns are similar (Zimring, p. 199).
More than 90 percent of suicide attempts with a gun are fatal (Miller, 2004, p. 626). In comparison, only 3 percent of attempts with drugs or cutting are fatal (Miller, 2004, p. 626)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: ICT ()
Date: April 07, 2012 10:13AM

Barbie Girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> justsayin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well-articulated statement, fully backed by
> facts.
> > Well done.
>
>
> Thanks! Here are some more FACTS!
>
> DID YOU KNOW? Where there are more guns, there are
> more gun deaths.
> An estimated 41% of gun-related homicides and 94%
> of gun-related suicides would not occur under the
> same circumstances had no guns been present
> (Wiebe, p. 780).
> Higher household gun ownership correlates with
> higher rates of homicides, suicides, and
> unintentional shootings (Harvard Injury Control
> Center).
> Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk
> of suicide by a factor of 3 to 5 and increases the
> risk of suicide with a firearm by a factor of 17
> (Kellermann, 1992, p. 467; Wiebe, p. 771).
> Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk
> of homicide by a factor of 3 (Kellermann, 1993, p.
> 1084).
> DID YOU KNOW? On the whole, guns are more likely
> to raise the risk of injury than to confer
> protection.
> A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be
> used in a completed or attempted suicide (11x),
> criminal assault or homicide (7x), or
> unintentional shooting death or injury (4x) than
> to be used in a self-defense shooting.
> (Kellermann, 1998, p. 263).
> Guns are used to intimidate and threaten 4 to 6
> times more often than they are used to thwart
> crime (Hemenway, p. 269).
> Every year there are only about 200 legally
> justified self-defense homicides by private
> citizens (FBI, Expanded Homicide Data, Table 15)
> compared with over 30,000 gun deaths (NCIPC).
> A 2009 study found that people in possession of a
> gun are 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an
> assault (Branas).
> DID YOU KNOW? Assaults and suicide attempts with
> firearms are much more likely to be fatal than
> those perpetrated with less lethal weapons or
> means. Removing guns saves lives.
> There are five times as many deaths from gun
> assaults as from knife assaults, where the rates
> of assault with knives and with guns are similar
> (Zimring, p. 199).
> More than 90 percent of suicide attempts with a
> gun are fatal (Miller, 2004, p. 626). In
> comparison, only 3 percent of attempts with drugs
> or cutting are fatal (Miller, 2004, p. 626)

Unsubstantiated fantasy from the Violence Policy Center.
Links please? This is pure bullshit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: ICT ()
Date: April 07, 2012 10:14AM

You'd be better off with a pocket full of rocks than an unloaded gun.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: cappy ()
Date: April 07, 2012 10:17AM

Barbie Girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gun Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So many threads about guns. How come?
>
>
> Guys that are insecure and have small wieners are
> all about the guns. Most of them have Mommy issues
> and having a gun makes them feel more secure.
> Sadly they put themselves at a greater risk of
> injury, death or long prison sentences just by
> carrying a gun. People who keep a locked gun or
> two at home for home security generally do not
> fall into the category that these concealed carry
> permit nut-jobs do.

Quick! Move to DC or Prince Georges County where it's safe.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: Barbie Girl ()
Date: April 07, 2012 10:20AM

Truth, some people just cant handle it.

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997, 46(5): 101-105; United Nations Tenth Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, 2005-2006; Australian Institute of Criminology. National Homicide Monitoring Program Annual Report 2006-2007; Home Office Statistical Bulletin, “England / Wales: Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2006/07”; Population References (except England and Wales): Population Reference Bureau, 2006 World Population Data Sheet; Population estimates for England and Wales

Branas et al, “Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault,” American Journal of Public Health, 99(11)(2009), published online ahead of print, Sep 17, 2009

Children's Defense Fund, Protect Children Not Guns 2009, September 2009

Cook, Philip J, and Jens Ludwig, Gun Violence: The Real Costs, New York, NY: Oxford University Press, 2000

Cook, PJ and J Ludwig, Guns in America: Results of a Comprehensive National Survey on Firearms Ownership and Use, (Washington, DC: Police Foundation, 1996). Although a handful of states require background checks at gun shows, in most states, private sales are completely unregulated.

Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports, Crime in the United States, 2008, Expanded Homicide Data Table 15 and Table 15

Harvard School of Public Health: Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Homicide – Suicide – Accidents – Children and Women, Boston: Harvard School of Public Health, 2009, http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

Hemenway, David and Deborah Azrael., “The Relative Frequency of Offensive and Defensive Gun Uses: Results From a National Survey,” Violence and Victims, 15(3) (2000): 257-272

Kellermann, Arthur L. et al., “Injuries and Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home,” Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care, 45(2) (1998): 263-267

Kellermann, Arthur L. MD, MPH, et al., “Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home,” New England Journal of Medicine, 329(15) (1993): 1084-1091

Kellermann, Arthur L. et al., “Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership,” New England Journal of Medicine, 327(7) (1992): 467-472

Miller, Matthew, David Hemenway, Deborah Azrael, "Firearms and Suicide in the Northeast," Journal of Trauma 57 (2004):626-632. (See also: E. D. Shenassa, S. N. Catlin, S. L Buka, "Lethality of Firearms Relative to Other Suicide Methods: A Population Based Study," Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health 57 (2003): 120-124.

National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System (2008 (deaths) and 2009 (injuries). Calculations by Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

Richardson, Erin G., and David Hemenway, “Homicide, Suicide, and Unintentional Firearm Fatality: Comparing the United States With Other High-Income Countries, 2003,” Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care, published online ahead of print, June 2010

Wiebe, Douglas J. PhD. “Homicide and Suicide Risks Associated With Firearms in the Home: A National Case-C

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: ICT ()
Date: April 07, 2012 10:39AM

The Bias Against Guns

http://www.johnlott.org/

AEI

Note: The blog site for John Lott featuring running commentary and a list of his op-eds can be found here.

The Bias Against Guns
Why Almost Everything You've Heard about Gun Control Is Wrong
By John R. Lott, Jr.

Published: March 2003
Cover of The Bias against Guns
300 pages
Hardcover
ISBN: 0895261146


In his bestselling classic, More Guns, Less Crime, John R. Lott, Jr., proved that guns make us safer. Now, in his stunning new book, The Bias against Guns, Lott shows how liberals bury pro-gun facts out of sheer bias against the truth.

With irrefutable evidence, Lott shoots gun critics down and gives you the information you need to win arguments with those who want to ban guns.

Praise for The Bias against Guns

"If you want the truth the anti-gunners don't want you to know... you need a copy of The Bias Against Guns." --Sean Hannity, of Fox News Channel's Hannity & Colmes

"John Lott's thoughtful study should be read by everyone interested in the control of violent crime, and protection against terrorism." --Vernon L. Smith, 2002 Nobel Prize Winner in Economics

"John Lott's 1998 book, More Guns, Less Crime, created quite a stir among the gun-control romantics, whose expressive advocacy involves neither sound analytics nor empirical evidence. In this follow-on book, The Bias Against Guns, Lott continues the struggle, and responds to his critics, motivated by his strong conviction that analysis and evidence must, finally, win the day." --James Buchanan, 1986 Nobel Prize Winner in Economics

"Another major contribution by John Lott to the evidence on the effects--good and bad--of gun-control legislation. An important supplement to his More Guns, Less Crime."--Milton Friedman, 1976 Nobel Prize Winner in Economics

"As a gun-toting rock 'n' roll star all my life, I have lived firsthand the outrageous media and Hollywood bias against good guys with guns forever. I laugh in their face. John Lott is my academic hero." --Ted Nugent, recording artist and author of Kill It & Grill It and Gods, Guns, & Rock 'n' Roll

"[Lott] marshals unimpeachable evidence on how the anti-gun crusade, driven by sins of omission and commission, might actually be costing many more lives than it saves. You'll want to have this intellectual ammunition." --Walter E. Williams, economist and syndicated columnist

"John Lott is a scholar's scholar and a writer's writer--and his book shows why. That gun ownership might bring social benefits as well as costs is a story we do not often see in the press, and Lott here explores why. With a blend of new data, evidence, and examples, he unpacks the bias against such stories in the media."--J. Mark Ramseyer, Harvard Law School professor

Instructions for Obtaining John R. Lott's Raw Data

Most of this data involves STATA 7.0 data sets. The reason for using this is that the county level data involves a much larger set of control variables than can readily be handled by other statistical packages. The data sets can be obtained by clicking on the following links which will take you to the download page:
Chapter 6: MVPS Paper Data
Chapters 7 and 8: Safe Storage, Gun Shows, Assault Weapons Data
Appendix 1: Crime Data 77-00 Data
Appendix 2: Magazine Sales Data
2002 Survey on Defensive Gun Use Data
General Discussion of the 1997 and 2002 Surveys
Debate_over_Stanford_Law_Review
Confirming More Guns, Less Crime
All of the Above Sections

Op-ed's and comments about current topics by John Lott


Related Links
Order from Amazon
Order from Barnes and Noble

Other information
Dr.John Lott's CV as of 2-22-03
Washington Post Letter 3.21.03
General Discussion to claims regarding the 1997 and 2002 surveys

Site Meter

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: they should have ()
Date: April 07, 2012 01:15PM

Barbie Girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth, some people just cant handle it.
>
> Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "Rates
> of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death
> Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries,"
> Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997,
> 46(5): 101-105; United Nations Tenth Survey of
> Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice
> Systems, 2005-2006; Australian Institute of
> Criminology. National Homicide Monitoring Program
> Annual Report 2006-2007; Home Office Statistical
> Bulletin, “England / Wales: Homicides, Firearm
> Offences and Intimate Violence 2006/07”;
> Population References (except England and Wales):
> Population Reference Bureau, 2006 World Population
> Data Sheet; Population estimates for England and
> Wales
>
> Branas et al, “Investigating the Link Between
> Gun Possession and Gun Assault,” American
> Journal of Public Health, 99(11)(2009), published
> online ahead of print, Sep 17, 2009
>
> Children's Defense Fund, Protect Children Not Guns
> 2009, September 2009
>
> Cook, Philip J, and Jens Ludwig, Gun Violence: The
> Real Costs, New York, NY: Oxford University Press,
> 2000
>
> Cook, PJ and J Ludwig, Guns in America: Results of
> a Comprehensive National Survey on Firearms
> Ownership and Use, (Washington, DC: Police
> Foundation, 1996). Although a handful of states
> require background checks at gun shows, in most
> states, private sales are completely unregulated.
>
>
> Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime
> Reports, Crime in the United States, 2008,
> Expanded Homicide Data Table 15 and Table 15
>
> Harvard School of Public Health: Harvard Injury
> Control Research Center. Homicide – Suicide –
> Accidents – Children and Women, Boston: Harvard
> School of Public Health, 2009,
> http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearm
> s-research/guns-and-death/index.html
>
> Hemenway, David and Deborah Azrael., “The
> Relative Frequency of Offensive and Defensive Gun
> Uses: Results From a National Survey,” Violence
> and Victims, 15(3) (2000): 257-272
>
> Kellermann, Arthur L. et al., “Injuries and
> Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home,” Journal of
> Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care,
> 45(2) (1998): 263-267
>
> Kellermann, Arthur L. MD, MPH, et al., “Gun
> Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the
> Home,” New England Journal of Medicine, 329(15)
> (1993): 1084-1091
>
> Kellermann, Arthur L. et al., “Suicide in the
> Home in Relation to Gun Ownership,” New England
> Journal of Medicine, 327(7) (1992): 467-472
>
> Miller, Matthew, David Hemenway, Deborah Azrael,
> "Firearms and Suicide in the Northeast," Journal
> of Trauma 57 (2004):626-632. (See also: E. D.
> Shenassa, S. N. Catlin, S. L Buka, "Lethality of
> Firearms Relative to Other Suicide Methods: A
> Population Based Study," Journal of Epidemiology
> and Community Health 57 (2003): 120-124.
>
> National Center for Injury Prevention and Control,
> Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting
> System (2008 (deaths) and 2009 (injuries).
> Calculations by Brady Center to Prevent Gun
> Violence.
>
> Richardson, Erin G., and David Hemenway,
> “Homicide, Suicide, and Unintentional Firearm
> Fatality: Comparing the United States With Other
> High-Income Countries, 2003,” Journal of Trauma,
> Injury, Infection, and Critical Care, published
> online ahead of print, June 2010
>
> Wiebe, Douglas J. PhD. “Homicide and Suicide
> Risks Associated With Firearms in the Home: A
> National Case-C


Half of these articles are medical journals and the other half are a spattering of extreme anti gun groups.

You didnt prove anything with those articles. Just because something is in a journal doesnt make it a good article, and not one of those articles came from a reputable criminologist or source. Journals about trauma and medicine are of course going to be anti gun, brady center too.

You also left out the fact that for every article saying theyre bad theres at least 1 saying the opposite.

And the fact that gun violence is the highest in places where guns are banned.

Or the gun violence in the UK sky rocketed when they were banned.

But you think people who wont obey thou shall not kill will obey thou shall not own a gun.

Getting rid of guns just means only criminals have them, but you were right some people cant handle the truth

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: ICT ()
Date: April 07, 2012 01:49PM

they should have Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Barbie Girl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Truth, some people just cant handle it.
> >
> > Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,
> "Rates
> > of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death
> > Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries,"
> > Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997,
> > 46(5): 101-105; United Nations Tenth Survey of
> > Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice
> > Systems, 2005-2006; Australian Institute of
> > Criminology. National Homicide Monitoring
> Program
> > Annual Report 2006-2007; Home Office
> Statistical
> > Bulletin, “England / Wales: Homicides,
> Firearm
> > Offences and Intimate Violence 2006/07”;
> > Population References (except England and
> Wales):
> > Population Reference Bureau, 2006 World
> Population
> > Data Sheet; Population estimates for England
> and
> > Wales
> >
> > Branas et al, “Investigating the Link Between
> > Gun Possession and Gun Assault,” American
> > Journal of Public Health, 99(11)(2009),
> published
> > online ahead of print, Sep 17, 2009
> >
> > Children's Defense Fund, Protect Children Not
> Guns
> > 2009, September 2009
> >
> > Cook, Philip J, and Jens Ludwig, Gun Violence:
> The
> > Real Costs, New York, NY: Oxford University
> Press,
> > 2000
> >
> > Cook, PJ and J Ludwig, Guns in America: Results
> of
> > a Comprehensive National Survey on Firearms
> > Ownership and Use, (Washington, DC: Police
> > Foundation, 1996). Although a handful of states
> > require background checks at gun shows, in most
> > states, private sales are completely
> unregulated.
> >
> >
> > Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime
> > Reports, Crime in the United States, 2008,
> > Expanded Homicide Data Table 15 and Table 15
> >
> > Harvard School of Public Health: Harvard Injury
> > Control Research Center. Homicide – Suicide
> –
> > Accidents – Children and Women, Boston:
> Harvard
> > School of Public Health, 2009,
> >
> http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearm
>
> > s-research/guns-and-death/index.html
> >
> > Hemenway, David and Deborah Azrael., “The
> > Relative Frequency of Offensive and Defensive
> Gun
> > Uses: Results From a National Survey,”
> Violence
> > and Victims, 15(3) (2000): 257-272
> >
> > Kellermann, Arthur L. et al., “Injuries and
> > Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home,” Journal
> of
> > Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care,
> > 45(2) (1998): 263-267
> >
> > Kellermann, Arthur L. MD, MPH, et al., “Gun
> > Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the
> > Home,” New England Journal of Medicine,
> 329(15)
> > (1993): 1084-1091
> >
> > Kellermann, Arthur L. et al., “Suicide in the
> > Home in Relation to Gun Ownership,” New
> England
> > Journal of Medicine, 327(7) (1992): 467-472
> >
> > Miller, Matthew, David Hemenway, Deborah
> Azrael,
> > "Firearms and Suicide in the Northeast,"
> Journal
> > of Trauma 57 (2004):626-632. (See also: E. D.
> > Shenassa, S. N. Catlin, S. L Buka, "Lethality
> of
> > Firearms Relative to Other Suicide Methods: A
> > Population Based Study," Journal of
> Epidemiology
> > and Community Health 57 (2003): 120-124.
> >
> > National Center for Injury Prevention and
> Control,
> > Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting
> > System (2008 (deaths) and 2009 (injuries).
> > Calculations by Brady Center to Prevent Gun
> > Violence.
> >
> > Richardson, Erin G., and David Hemenway,
> > “Homicide, Suicide, and Unintentional Firearm
> > Fatality: Comparing the United States With
> Other
> > High-Income Countries, 2003,” Journal of
> Trauma,
> > Injury, Infection, and Critical Care, published
> > online ahead of print, June 2010
> >
> > Wiebe, Douglas J. PhD. “Homicide and Suicide
> > Risks Associated With Firearms in the Home: A
> > National Case-C
>
>
> Half of these articles are medical journals and
> the other half are a spattering of extreme anti
> gun groups.
>
> You didnt prove anything with those articles.
> Just because something is in a journal doesnt make
> it a good article, and not one of those articles
> came from a reputable criminologist or source.
> Journals about trauma and medicine are of course
> going to be anti gun, brady center too.
>
> You also left out the fact that for every article
> saying theyre bad theres at least 1 saying the
> opposite.
>
> And the fact that gun violence is the highest in
> places where guns are banned.
>
> Or the gun violence in the UK sky rocketed when
> they were banned.
>
> But you think people who wont obey thou shall not
> kill will obey thou shall not own a gun.
>
> Getting rid of guns just means only criminals have
> them, but you were right some people cant handle
> the truth

Some people just can't get it through their thick skulls that the 2nd Amendment is a reality and they're going to have to learn to live with it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: they should have ()
Date: April 07, 2012 01:59PM

ICT Wrote:

> Some people just can't get it through their thick
> skulls that the 2nd Amendment is a reality and
> they're going to have to learn to live with it.


Its like they think that crime and murder started with the invention of the gun. Its not the gun that does anything its people making bad decisions or just being evil people. No murderer has ever said "Id really like to go into that building and shoot everyone but the sign on the door says I cant have a gun in there so I wont".

Its nothing more then a tool and no more dangerous than the person who has it. But if you listen to some peoples logic of how its the guns fault you would think spoon made michael moore fat and back seats get teenage girls pregnant.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: Gots to Know ()
Date: April 07, 2012 03:21PM

Nigga got get ma rites restored it be dangerous without gun. Dthey fuck with the nigga damn the rites shit knock a fuw nigga off for fuking with me and some pussy ass honkeys for some jack. Go Hard.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: Olde Farte, II ()
Date: April 07, 2012 07:25PM

they should have Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its nothing more then a tool and no more dangerous
> than the person who has it

Without putting words int hat poster's mouth (er, under his her typing fingers...) I think that was the whole idea being conveyed.

Guns kill/wound accidently more than they defend.

==========

I own guns, I support ownership of guns, I don't myself but I have no problem with others carrying guns around.

However...

I strongly believe training of some sort should be required before any of the above is allowed.

What's that amendment say again:

>>> "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,
>>> the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Yes, I can live with that - with the caveat that, IMHO, it outright states that said militia is "well regulated", i.e. "trained":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Meaning_of_.22well_regulated_militia.22

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: they should have ()
Date: April 07, 2012 07:33PM

Olde Farte, II Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Without putting words int hat poster's mouth (er,
> under his her typing fingers...) I think that was
> the whole idea being conveyed.
>
> Guns kill/wound accidently more than they defend.

Illegal guns certainly do and are responsible for the vast majority of such incidences.

> ==========
>
> I own guns, I support ownership of guns, I don't
> myself but I have no problem with others carrying
> guns around.
>
> However...
>
> I strongly believe training of some sort should be
> required before any of the above is allowed.
>
> What's that amendment say again:
>
> >>> "A well regulated militia being necessary to
> the security of a free state,
> >>> the right of the people to keep and bear arms
> shall not be infringed."
>
> Yes, I can live with that - with the caveat that,
> IMHO, it outright states that said militia is
> "well regulated", i.e. "trained":
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_t
> he_United_States_Constitution#Meaning_of_.22well_r
> egulated_militia.22


I dont think theres many gun owners out there (legal ones) that would disagree that anyone with a gun should have either some training of it, knowledge of it, or demonstrate the ability to properly use one especially if they will be carrying. Im all for people being properly trained.

The NRA is actually in favor of training for people with guns and people with who carry. It only makes their job harder when idiots (mostly with illegal guns) run around shooting themselves and others.

That said just like with every other thing every made there will be a small percentage of people that will use them illegally and would just find a substitute if there were no guns. But just because some people use their car as a weapon doesnt mean that all cars should be banned. The overwhelming majority of people with guns use them safely. Anti gun people would be absolutely shocked if they knew how many people actually own guns, most responsible owners you will never know unless the conversation comes up or you see one in their house.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: Djtwv ()
Date: April 07, 2012 11:48PM

All of Kellermann's studies have been discredited

http://reason.com/archives/1997/04/01/public-health-pot-shots

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: they should have ()
Date: April 08, 2012 12:29AM

Djtwv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All of Kellermann's studies have been discredited
>
> http://reason.com/archives/1997/04/01/public-healt
> h-pot-shots


A large number of anti gun studies especially in non criminology journals is just slanted work that doesnt hold up when you look at the methods. The fact is that you can get any conclusion you want from studies if you design them a certain way.

Most of the legitimate anti gun studies have to do with guns in the hands of criminals or illegal guns.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: justsayin ()
Date: April 09, 2012 10:14AM

they should have Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But just
> because some people use their car as a weapon
> doesnt mean that all cars should be banned.

You don't need to explain even that much... 2A says Americans can be armed and the SCOTUS has affirmed the individual right, end of discussion. Don't like it, either suck it up or move somewhere not covered by the US Constitution.

If anti-2A people would spend more time encouraging mandatory gun safety inclusion in public school curriculums, perhaps one measely PE class per year to teach the very basics (point in safe direction, finger off trigger, unloaded until ready to shoot), they'd save a lot more lives preventing accidental handling errors than complaining about a court-affirmed consitutional right.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2012 10:49AM by justsayin.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: M-14 ()
Date: April 09, 2012 10:34AM

they should have Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Djtwv Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > All of Kellermann's studies have been
> discredited
> >
> >
> http://reason.com/archives/1997/04/01/public-healt
>
> > h-pot-shots
>
>
> A large number of anti gun studies especially in
> non criminology journals is just slanted work that
> doesnt hold up when you look at the methods. The
> fact is that you can get any conclusion you want
> from studies if you design them a certain way.
>
> Most of the legitimate anti gun studies have to do
> with guns in the hands of criminals or illegal
> guns.

I remember when the Violence Policy Center/Handgun Control Inc.
issued a press release that said 65% of all NRA members supported
the Brady Bill. I'm still laughing over that one. What shit!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question For Gunholders
Posted by: BB*X ()
Date: April 09, 2012 11:02AM

There are five times as many deaths from gun assaults as from knife assaults, where the rates of assault with knives and with guns are similar (Zimring, p. 199).

More than 90 percent of suicide attempts with a gun are fatal (Miller, 2004, p. 626). In comparison, only 3 percent of attempts with drugs or cutting are fatal (Miller, 2004, p. 626)

What is this supposed to prove? I'm pretty sure we all know that getting shot in the chest with a .45 is going to cause more damage than getting stuck with a Swiss army knife.

Second "fact" proves nothing other than fewer than 10 percent of people who use a gun to commit suicide in fact do not want to commit suicide. It's really not that hard to kill yourself with a gun, the people that attempt suicide with a gun and don't die just wanted some attention.

Options: ReplyQuote


Your Name: 
Your Email (Optional): 
Subject: 
Attach a file
  • No file can be larger than 75 MB
  • All files together cannot be larger than 300 MB
  • 30 more file(s) can be attached to this message
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 ********   **    **  ********  **     **  **    ** 
 **     **   **  **   **         **   **   **   **  
 **     **    ****    **          ** **    **  **   
 **     **     **     ******       ***     *****    
 **     **     **     **          ** **    **  **   
 **     **     **     **         **   **   **   **  
 ********      **     **        **     **  **    ** 
This forum powered by Phorum.