Best. Movie. Ever.

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Road House
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If by "best" you mean "cheesiest" then yes.

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> If by "best" you mean "cheesiest" then yes.


Oh man, Road House + Cheese = Winning!

Did someone say cheeeeese? ??

 

Adolf Eichmann, the notorious Nazi concentration camp organizer, was described not as a monster or evil sadist, but rather as an ordinary soldier who only obeyed orders--leading to the concept of the banality of evil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banality_of_evil

When I think of that phrase I think of a guy like Karpis. He certinly looks like an ordinary guy, yet he actively participates in the trashing of Red's store. That leads me to the question--do you think Wesley and his henchmen were "evil" or were they all doing what they thought was right and/or just obeying orders?

I'd say Jimmy--an admitted rapist and arsonist-- was certanily a sociopath. Morgan clearly had a violent streak and could never fit into regular society. But guys like Mountain, Tinker, O'Connor? They seem like more or less "normal" people who, under different circumstances, could be living regular lives.

As for Wesley himself? I'd have to say he was evil.

rsr26..I agree with what you are saying. An example is Wade's death. I could see Ketchum stabbing him to death, but I see it very hard that O'Connor, Tinker, Mountain and even Morgan (he was violent but I did not think a cold blooded murderer)were involved in some capacity. The true killers of the group are Ketchum and Jimmy. The others I do not see as killers, but as brutes. That's why I argue for the Ketchum alone killing Wade hypothesis. Maybe Pat had some involvement? I do not know.

Nice thoughts.

Wesley-Very wicked man.

Jimmy-crazy socipath manipulated by evil people.

Ketchum- The guy was no good. A bad seed.

Pat- Certainly a weak constitution. But no good at all and quite stupid.

Morgan- Dumbass who was no good for anything.

O'Connor- Moral compass was off. Might have been half-decent with better people. Seemed somewhat intelligent, just didn't think.

Tinker- Really dumb. Probably as good or bad as those who he followed.

Karpis- Bad guy who knew exactly what he was doing.

Mountain- Simple-minded. Probably like Tinker, could be good if he had good people.

Mike Holmgren guy- needed to hang out with better people than Ketchum to kill a Saturday night. :)

LOL.......rehiii76

Don't forget the taller Red Webster lookalike in the Fedora and toothpick, who stood to to toe with Wade for a while in the big DD rumble. I think he's just hired hand or a journeyman henchman.

I view Wesley is a Hitler-figure. I would say that Wesley began as a simple entrepreneur, trying to revitalize the economy of Jasper; he was going to bring in JC Penneys, for instance. Wesley began with the best of intentions, yet was so corrupted by his power over Jasper that he became a simple racketeer. In the process, he replaced Doc--who I see acting as his conscience--with a parade of hoodlums and two bit thugs and yes-men.

So you think perhaps Wesley, at one time, was a good man but ultimately was corrupted by the trappings of power? I would like to know how a guy from the "mean streets of Chicago" ended up in Jasper. Brad Wesley's early years are a mystery. He doesn't seem to have any immediate family--Pat is his nephew and he has a cousin in Memphis. I'm sure he was always an ambitious man...but was he always such a heartless one?

Idk about that, I've always been interested in the henchmen like Gary and Jimmy. How'd they come to be the jerks they were? how did Jimmy grow to be so mean-spirited plus get locked up earlier in youth?

Ketchum was definately a cold-heart. Like when Dalton ambushes him at the end in the house, and he pulls his knife (used to kill Wade, duh.) He's got that look in his eye like, "ah yeah, this is what I used to grease your buddy with."

I think Jimmy was a crossover of the 80's new wave/Punk meets southern trailer park redneck.

Ketchum sure had a shady past. But he seem to have some connections--like the Mike Holmgren and the Jerry Reid lookalike thugs. He may have worked as a subcontractor for Wesley. I have a theory that Ketchum was a carpenter/construction worker and the Mike Holmgren and Jerry Reid lookalikes were guys from his crew in for the extra dollars. We never see them again, they certainly were not regular Wesleyian henchmen. They were rent-a henchman-for a day.

lol you guys are cracking me up in this thread. Hilarious. But I tend to disagree about some of the characters, here' show I see them.

Jimmy - definitely a bad guy. Has no problem killing somebody or raping them. Probably been that way is entire life.

Morgan - Just your neighborhood bully. I don't think he had the lust for killing though, just fell into a bad crowd. Obviously not the smartest guy, so Wesley probably used that to take advantage of him. Probably saw him bouncing somewhere and convinced him he could make some "real cash" working for him and he bought it.

Tinker - He falls under the Morgan category as well but I don't think he was as big of bully. He was probably an underpaid construction worker that Wesley found when they were building the JC Penny so he went and poached him.

Ketchum - Since its pretty much unanimously agreed on that he put the knife in Wade he obviously has no problem killing somebody. Whether he has always been that way or not is up for debate but he strikes me as somebody that wasn't always a bad apple. I think he more than likely got bullied as a kid so he was forced to take martial arts classes to defend himself. Once he mastered them he then got into a few scuffles at bars and caught Wesley's attention. After years of being bullied Ketchum became fond of being on the other end of it.

Mountain - This ones pretty simple, he had nothing else going for him but his height so he couldn't land any decent job. Wesley knew that even if he couldn't fight he could atleast be intimidating which is why he went after him. Wesley brought him to one of his famous parties and that's all Mountain needed to see, after that he would do anything for Wesley.

As far as Karpis and O'Conner I agree with just about everything everybody else has said about them in this thread so I don't have much to add to that.

So to sum it up I think that most of his goons could have ended up being decent people if Wesley didn't come along. I guess I can't blame them because they probably had nothing going for them and Wesley probably promised them the World so it was hard for them to resist.

I like your thoughts here Mhitman. You obviously put some thought into these. They are interesting.

Regarding Ketchum---I think that I would have to more or less deduce that he was a bad apple all his life, probably much like Jimmy only without his impressive array of fighting skills. I kind of wish that we could have seen a scene or two of Ketchum fighting somone other than Dalton so we could judge for ourselves if he really was a good fighter or not. Certainly we can deduce that he was no match at all for Dalton, but then again, most men were not.

A few years ago we did a character profile on Ketchum and I think that I postulated the possibility that he may have been a Vietnam Vet and even a cop in Kansas City (but no doubt a bad one) who came to work for the Wesley syndication. Ketchum does give off a bit of a sophisticated air, at least in a sense. He is obviously not as Jasper-redneck as say Morgan and Tinker. He dresses a little better and looks like he was the product of better breeding than them. He certainly seemed at home and somewhat skilled with weapons, ie the shotgun and the manner in which he fights with the knife.

While I have no doubt that he was a bad seed, I tend to think there was a little more backstory to him than just simply being a mindless, dumb hick who merely went to work for Wesley and his syndicate.

Those are very compelling hunches you have made, Rehiii76. Ketchum did have an air of dignified superiority over small town types like Morgan and Tinker. The military bit maybe, previously a police officer--that's a tough one. But its certainly one of the strongest theories outthere in RoadHouse scholarship on the Pre-Roadhouse Ketchum. I still like to think he was skilled labor of sort or an artisan...

Now we don't know exactly if the Mike Holmgren and Jerry Reed lookalikes were in on the killing of Wade or they simply, alongside the Evil Red Webster with the fedora, completed their tasks as rent-a henchman-for a day during the bar brawl...

On these matters, meditate I will.....

Thanks for the response rehii. Yeah Ketchum is the hardest character for me to read, for some reason I just can't picture him being a bad person all his life. I really don't know why but I see him more of somebody that was on the right path at one point when things suddenly changed. The bullying scenario I brought up was done more so in tongue and cheek but I think there is some validity in something like that. Maybe it wasn't bullying but something happened to him or he did something that set him off. I like your Vietnam scenario though, I didn't think of that. I also would've liked to see him fight somebody other than Dalton. There's no doubt that he couldn't take somebody like Dalton or Jimmy but I would bet a vast majority of the fights he gets in he wins.

Ronsin and Mhitman---I think I argued that Ketchum was perhaps a Vietnam Vet for several reasons. Let me committ them to our roundtable discussion.

1. Just the way that he handles weapons would paint a picture of someone who was a Combat Arms solider. He was more than just some guy who picked up a knife and swung it at Dalton. Look at how he holds it and how he makes swipes at Dalton with it. Also, watch the manner he carries his shotgun, ala arms at port, as he makes his way outside the house and once inside. My guess here is that his manner reflects someone who had training at the military and/or law enforcement level.

2. During the fire at Red's, note how when Wesley makes the comment of "get those firemen in here. I want to buy them a drink...risking their lives to save the place of a no-good, f aggot draft-dodger like Red Webster..."

It is here when Wade looks over at Ketchum and O'Connor sitting at a table. Ketchum has an absolute smirk on his face as he peers back at Wade. Maybe I'm reading too much into it----but it almost seems like Ketchum is smirking and mocking Wade as Ketchum himself may have fought in the jungles of Southeast Asia while Wade was a hippie at that time. I could be way off base with that, but that's what I love about this film is all the hidden little nuggets that you can perhaps derive more of the story from.

Certainly don't get me wrong here, I am in no way shape or form trying to paint Ketchum as a good guy or a patriot. No doubt he was a bad seed whereever he went and like we saw in the movies about Vietnam like "Platoon" and "Casualties of War" not all American soldiers were good guys. In fact, some of them were really quite bad people.

As for Mike Holmgren and his buddies....my guess here is that they were just guys that Ketchum knew. Maybe from work or just hopping around the bars. They probably thought it would be fun to go and roll some people with Gary on a Saturday night. I'm not sure if there was much more backstory to them than that, but it's hard to say.

Im always amused at the way these threads take on a life of their own and go into different directions.

I've postulated before that Ketchum was not part of Wesley's regular goon squad but was hired by Wesley on an "as needed" basis for specific jobs. When Wesley saw Dalton was going to be trouble, he called his friend Gary who I believe was riding the Monster Truck circuit in the mid-west. Look at the way he demolishes the car dealership--this guy knows what he is doing with Monster Trucks. Certainly plausible that he has some military training and combat experience. He's also a little more sophisticated than the other goons, which leads me to believe he's spent a lot of time outside of Jasper.

He seems pretty close with Jimmy, as the two hang out in his truck at the Deuce spying on Dalton and the doctor. Ultimately, Gary's results are mixed. He does kill Wade and destroy a car dealership, but he also fails in his attempt to wreak havoc at the Deuce.

All good points guys. I'm still holding on to the opinion that Gary Ketchum was blue-collar. Maybe a military background. The monster truck, his dress, his personality and the company he keeps--makes me see him as a construction/carpenter kind of guy. I do believe that Ketchum was a part-timer, hence his absence from the pool-party, even Karpis and Mountain were there and they have limited scences in the movie. The Mike Holmgren-lookalike, Jerry Reed-lookalike,the young guy that went with them and Ketchum, and the Evil Red Webster were certainly guys that knew Ketchum.

Well at least Mike Holmgren,Jerry Reed, and the young guy knew Ketchum, but the Evil Red Webster just came out of nowhere playing pool, twirling his toothpick and playing with his fedora.

rsr, I'm impressed at the level of thought you've contribute to the ongoing discussion surrounding this film which has inspired me for so long.

Forgive me if I'm going down a road that has already been travelled here, but as I watched the film last night it occurred to me that an alternate theory to Wesley as absolutely bad is the possibility that he is a former associate of Tilghman, Emmet, Red, et al and that they are using Dalton as a pawn to get rid of Wesley so they can take tighter control of things. This would explain his seemingly over the top antics (blowing up businesses, sending monster trucks to demolish car dealerships lots and showrooms) as merely his defense in a turf war being waged on him by other bosses. It would also explain the passive response of these men as something more profound than mere resignation.

Perhaps Wesley even saw the writing on the wall with Dalton's arrival, and accepted that he had a role to play in resistance (though his fate was obvious to him, like Frank in Once Upon a Time in the West). He probably became progressively more eccentric in those final few months. Wilder parties, tempting fate on the roads, etc.

Food for thought.

Favorite movie quote: "All you have to do is follow three simple rules. One, never underestimate your opponent. Expect the unexpected."

I always thought, isn't that first rule actually two, completely unrelated rules???