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Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: March 25, 2011 02:04PM

I still support lowering the corporate tax rates, but why the hell don't corporations pay AMT or something similar? They should have a bottom line tax obligation of X% no matter how many credits they get. It seems like the Obama administration has a much more "involved" relationship going on with corporations than Bush-Cheney ever did. Just look at how influential GE is becoming, or even Google - who is putting their noses into almost every kind of business in the world.

G.E.’s Strategies Let It Avoid Taxes Altogether
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?_r=1&hp
...The company reported worldwide profits of $14.2 billion, and said $5.1 billion of the total came from its operations in the United States.

Its American tax bill? None. In fact, G.E. claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion...


EDIT: And it seems a LOT of the folks Obama hired were doing a lot of tax dodging themselves.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2011 02:07PM by Registered Voter.

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 25, 2011 02:35PM

GE is also one of the main offenders with the subsidized pie-in-the-sky "green jobs" fraud.

They are the parent company of NBC,MSNBC and Telemundo and use all three to spout phony enviromentalist propaganda.


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: March 25, 2011 02:37PM

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EDIT: And it seems a LOT of the folks Obama hired
> were doing a lot of tax dodging themselves.

That was a close one. You almost went an entire post without blaming Obama for something.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: March 25, 2011 03:14PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Registered Voter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > EDIT: And it seems a LOT of the folks Obama
> hired
> > were doing a lot of tax dodging themselves.
>
> That was a close one. You almost went an entire
> post without blaming Obama for something.

Read it again. I didn't blame Obama for anything. It is more about appearances - the media bashed Bush and Cheney over and over again for ties to big oil. Yet how many "big oil" people were in the administration? Sure, a lot of oil people have been getting rich, but you can hardly blame Bush and Cheney for doing anything back then for policies that caused oil prices to rise. You can blame speculators, consumer use (China and India will eventually have much larger demands by far then we do), etc.

You constantly hear the media parroting the Democrats line of how the Republicans just want to give tax breaks to the rich - and yet, who has two of the largest corporations in the US (and abroad) working as close advisors directly to them and their cabinet? Also, the folks that Obama brought in all seemed to have some aversion to paying taxes - or even many of the dems in Congress.

So I guess what they are demonstrating is that we should raise taxes on rich companies and individuals because they can always hire lawyers (hmm - large make up of Congress) to ensure they have enough loopholes or tax dodges to pay no taxes at all - or even having the government PAY them. Or, hey, just outright don't pay the taxes. You have to wonder what the IRS does with their audits if they can't even catch the obvious tax fraud that goes on - instead they go after the low end tax payers so they can squeeze a couple of hundred or maybe thousand bucks out of them. For all the time and effort they should just have full time auditors of anyone who is a lawyer or a large corporation. Much better return for the money spent enforcing the law.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: March 25, 2011 03:20PM

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Registered Voter Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > EDIT: And it seems a LOT of the folks Obama
> > hired
> > > were doing a lot of tax dodging themselves.
> >
> > That was a close one. You almost went an
> entire
> > post without blaming Obama for something.
>
> Read it again. I didn't blame Obama for anything.
> It is more about appearances - the media bashed
> Bush and Cheney over and over again for ties to
> big oil. Yet how many "big oil" people were in the
> administration? Sure, a lot of oil people have
> been getting rich, but you can hardly blame Bush
> and Cheney for doing anything back then for
> policies that caused oil prices to rise. You can
> blame speculators, consumer use (China and India
> will eventually have much larger demands by far
> then we do), etc.
>
> You constantly hear the media parroting the
> Democrats line of how the Republicans just want to
> give tax breaks to the rich - and yet, who has two
> of the largest corporations in the US (and abroad)
> working as close advisors directly to them and
> their cabinet? Also, the folks that Obama brought
> in all seemed to have some aversion to paying
> taxes - or even many of the dems in Congress.
>
> So I guess what they are demonstrating is that we
> should raise taxes on rich companies and
> individuals because they can always hire lawyers
> (hmm - large make up of Congress) to ensure they
> have enough loopholes or tax dodges to pay no
> taxes at all - or even having the government PAY
> them. Or, hey, just outright don't pay the taxes.
> You have to wonder what the IRS does with their
> audits if they can't even catch the obvious tax
> fraud that goes on - instead they go after the low
> end tax payers so they can squeeze a couple of
> hundred or maybe thousand bucks out of them. For
> all the time and effort they should just have full
> time auditors of anyone who is a lawyer or a large
> corporation. Much better return for the money
> spent enforcing the law.
Attachments:
not-leaving-small.jpg

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: March 25, 2011 03:43PM

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You constantly hear the media parroting the
> Democrats line of how the Republicans just want to
> give tax breaks to the rich


Well it's true. Find a Republican who doesn't hew to the "cut taxes" mantra to fix every damn thing in the world and it's by far an exception to the norm. Democrats are only slightly less in thrall to big business though. Big business has all the cards now. They don't want to hire? They don't. Raising taxes? Move to a state that doesn't, or hell, move right out of the country altogether and avoid those pesky "livable wages" and "benefits" us spoiled American commoners keep insisting we deserve. We're all getting screwed and neither party is looking out for us, really. Democrats are just willing to ask the rich to pay a small percentage more than they do now.

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 25, 2011 04:04PM

Johnny Walker Wrote:
> Well it's true. Find a Republican who doesn't hew
> to the "cut taxes" mantra to fix every damn thing
> in the world and it's by far an exception to the
> norm. Democrats are only slightly less in thrall
> to big business though. Big business has all the
> cards now. They don't want to hire? They don't.
> Raising taxes? Move to a state that doesn't, or
> hell, move right out of the country altogether and
> avoid those pesky "livable wages" and "benefits"
> us spoiled American commoners keep insisting we
> deserve. We're all getting screwed and neither
> party is looking out for us, really. Democrats are
> just willing to ask the rich to pay a small
> percentage more than they do now.


Don't BS yourself into thinking there is a remarkable difference when the rubber hits the road, Wall Street gave much more $$$ to Obama than repubs in 2008 and the dems are more than eager to look the other way in cases like GE's but scream bloody murder if an oil corp does the same.

But if you still thinking taxing someone else is going to help you get "pesky benefits' or a "livable wage", you are arguing for socialism.

Cry to your boss man, not to other taxpayers if you can't make it.


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Date: March 25, 2011 04:07PM

Thread Title :
---------------------------
> "makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you."

OOPS, I THOUGHT THIS THREAD WAS GOING TO BE ABOUT iLLEGAL AMIGORUNTS.

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: March 25, 2011 04:14PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't BS yourself into thinking there is a
> remarkable difference when the rubber hits the
> road, Wall Street gave much more $$$ to Obama than
> repubs in 2008 and the dems are more than eager to
> look the other way in cases like GE's but scream
> bloody murder if an oil corp does the same.
>
> But if you still thinking taxing someone else is
> going to help you get "pesky benefits' or a
> "livable wage", you are arguing for socialism.
>
> Cry to your boss man, not to other taxpayers if
> you can't make it.


I'm don't BS myself about the Democrats. They are as enamored with Wall Street as any of them, because that's where all the money comes from, in campaign contributions and in our economy as a whole really. We no longer produce anything of value, just weird shuffling of money that creates more money.

And I'm not equating taxing and getting benefits and decent wages. It may have sounded like it but I'm not (although I would be all for a national health care program). However, things like those to help the average working American could be regulated into existence, and to a certain extent are already. But, that's not allowed either, as that means said Wall Street types don't get as much as they do now.

Call it Socialism if you want, I really don't care.

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 25, 2011 04:45PM

Johnny Walker Wrote:
> And I'm not equating taxing and getting benefits
> and decent wages. It may have sounded like it but
> I'm not (although I would be all for a national
> health care program).

You want someone else to subsidize your healthcare. I want a jetski, buy me one.

>However, things like those
> to help the average working American could be
> regulated into existence, and to a certain extent
> are already.

Minimum wages and regulations galore like OSHA abound. There is nothing wrong with working for someone else, most of us do, but if you think you "deserve" success and comfort by pulling a 40 hour minimum- you are part of the problem.

> But, that's not allowed either, as
> that means said Wall Street types don't get as
> much as they do now.

"Get as much"? There are surely a lot of greedy fuckheads on Wall Street, but I think "earn" is the word you are looking for. Unless as a socialist you feel all is communal. Personally I can accept the fact there are going to be people on the planet with more ambition/motivation than me or better opportunities or wealthy parents. Reality sucks, but must be embraced like all truthes.

> Call it Socialism if you want, I really don't
> care.

Are you gainfully employed or too heavily medicated with the panic attacks and all?


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: March 25, 2011 04:56PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Johnny Walker Wrote:
> > And I'm not equating taxing and getting
> benefits
> > and decent wages. It may have sounded like it
> but
> > I'm not (although I would be all for a national
> > health care program).
>
> You want someone else to subsidize your
> healthcare. I want a jetski, buy me one.

Not the same thing. and in most developed countries, and even some less developed ones like the new Iraq, for instance (You know, the one we liberated at great expense?), health care is considered a human right. My health care, as it is right now, is quite fine. I'm not thinking of me, though. I am thinking of my fellow Americans.

> >However, things like those
> > to help the average working American could be
> > regulated into existence, and to a certain
> extent
> > are already.
>
> Minimum wages and regulations galore like OSHA
> abound. There is nothing wrong with working for
> someone else, most of us do, but if you think you
> "deserve" success and comfort by pulling a 40 hour
> minimum- you are part of the problem.

Hence the statement including that these things already are regulated "to a certain extent." I think the "minimum" is too low. And who said anything about "success and comfort"? I'm not talking about people getting cars and boats here. How about "able to afford to live reasonably"? How about dignity for the people who pick your food and clean your crap off the floors, among many other jobs that are necessary for everyday life to be as we here in this country have it?

> > But, that's not allowed either, as
> > that means said Wall Street types don't get as
> > much as they do now.
>
> "Get as much"? There are surely a lot of greedy
> fuckheads on Wall Street, but I think "earn" is
> the word you are looking for. Unless as a
> socialist you feel all is communal. Personally I
> can accept the fact there are going to be people
> on the planet with more ambition/motivation than
> me or better opportunities or wealthy parents.
> Reality sucks, but must be embraced like all
> truthes.

They "get" more than they "earn" or "deserve."

> > Call it Socialism if you want, I really don't
> > care.
>
> Are you gainfully employed or too heavily
> medicated with the panic attacks and all?

I'm fine, thanks.

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POLL- Americans DO NOT TRUST Hillary!
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 25, 2011 05:20PM

Johnny Walker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> They "get" more than they "earn" or "deserve."

Johnny Boy, you are not a Democrat or even a liberal, you are a socialist. If only the others were so honest.

Blanket statements like above show that you are all about wahh-baby finger pointing instead of making anything for yourself.Good luck!


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: March 26, 2011 12:11PM

Rangel - the gift that keeps on giving. And now a "close" tie to Immelt - yeah, a $30M 'donation' to NY City Public Schools and watch as Rangle flip flopped on approving legislation benefiting GE and others. That has just got to be the tip of the iceberg for how much money GE has dumped into this administration and Congress.

General Electric's Harlem Horse Trade
http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/story/11060496/1/general-electrics-harlem-horse-trade.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA
...In May 2008, while Rangel still held his chairmanship, he met with GE tax chief and former U.S. Treasury official John Samuels. Samuels dropped to one knee and begged Rangel to extend a tax break that is especially important to GE, according to the report, which notes that a GE spokeswoman said Samuels was joking.

Rangel was presumably not joking, however, when he changed his position on the issue, known as "active financing," the same day. The chairman's reversal allowed GE and other companies, including Caterpillar(CAT), JPMorgan Chase (JPM), Ford(F) and IBM(IBM) to save an estimated $4 billion annually in taxes.

A month later, Rangel and Immelt were together in Harlem announcing a $30 million donation to benefit New York City schools, $11 million of which would go to institutions in Rangel's district.

Rangel and GE told the Times there was no connection between GE's donation and the tax break, though the article points to what appear to be conflicting statements by Rangel about whether he discussed the donation with GE or Immelt...


If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: March 26, 2011 12:14PM

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Eeshtard - maybe you should stop posting. You make yourself look more stupid every time. For instance, how many threads do you give your opinion on the topic at hand, or ask for the opinions of others? Just because your opinions don't rise above a 3rd grade reading level, don't get all butthurt that our conversations are beyond you.

Yeah, you don't like my threads? Stay out of them you dumbshit. Have another argument with your harem of anonymous trolls - or maybe a 'meaningful' discussion with some of your other pals. lol

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: mcsmack ()
Date: March 26, 2011 12:24PM

There is currently over 3 trillion dollars parked over seas held by US owned corporations. I do not blame GE or anyone for that matter not wanting to re-patriot profit at an effective 35% rate. You would be an idiot to do so.Not to mention the stocks would take a hit. Then if you have a 401K or something you would take a hit.

However, bring down the rate in line with the average for developed economies and you will see some movement.Cut it in half to 15%.

15% of something is better than 35% of nothing.

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Bill N ()
Date: March 26, 2011 04:54PM

mcsmack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is currently over 3 trillion dollars parked
> over seas held by US owned corporations. I do not
> blame GE or anyone for that matter not wanting to
> re-patriot profit at an effective 35% rate. You
> would be an idiot to do so.
>
> However, bring down the rate in line with the
> average for developed economies and you will see
> some movement.Cut it in half to 15%.
>
> 15% of something is better than 35% of nothing.

The problem with that is that tax holidays have precisely the same effect as automobile rebates. Once offered they are expected. Most of this money is sitting outside of the U.S. for two reasons: The first is that there are not many opportunities for investment in the U.S. that will yield high rates of return, so why pay taxes to get a modest rate of return in the U.S. when you can get a modest rate of return elsewhere. The second reason is that these companies are betting that if they keep the money outside the U.S. long enough, someone will eventually come along and pass a law allowing them to repatriate the funds at little tax cost. We could of course change the law to subject those funds to taxation even if they remain overseas. With the tax consequences the same regardless of where the money is parked companies would have no tax incentive to leave the money overseas. I suspect that even with such a change many companies would still leave that money overseas. After all there are many companies in the U.S. that currently ahve large amounts of cash sitting idle here. However politicians don't have the guts to do this either.

BTW I'll give you credit for this much. At least you are saying they should pay SOME tax wehn they repatriate the funds. There are some out there calling for us to allow the funds to be repatriated without having to pay ANY taxes.

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: March 26, 2011 07:52PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Johnny Walker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > They "get" more than they "earn" or "deserve."
>
> Johnny Boy, you are not a Democrat or even a
> liberal, you are a socialist. If only the others
> were so honest.
>
> Blanket statements like above show that you are
> all about wahh-baby finger pointing instead of
> making anything for yourself.Good luck!


Oh so those that caused this recession by playing the system "earned" and "deserved" their billions in bonuses.

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 27, 2011 08:23AM

Johnny Walker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh so those that caused this recession by playing
> the system "earned" and "deserved" their billions
> in bonuses.

So Wall Street caused the recession and it had nothing to do with the end-user idiots who overborrowed on mortgages they could never pay off? Blame the liquor store but never the alcoholic, of course.

Don't forget either, the bailouts that the Democrat Congress and Obama supported was also used for Wall Street bonuses,

FAIL


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: March 27, 2011 12:12PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Wall Street caused the recession and it had
> nothing to do with the end-user idiots who
> overborrowed on mortgages they could never pay
> off? Blame the liquor store but never the
> alcoholic, of course.
>
> Don't forget either, the bailouts that the
> Democrat Congress and Obama supported was also
> used for Wall Street bonuses,
>
> FAIL


So it's all the fault of the people who couldn't pay back the loans, not the people who gave them the loans or, even more so, the people who knew very well the loans they packaged into securities and traded around weren't any good are just innocent bystanders in the whole thing.

Don't try to deflect this onto some kind of "Republican vs Democrat" distraction either. I guarantee you the Republicans would have done just about the same thing, because there is no way the-powers-that-be were going to simply let all these big banks and firms just die.

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 27, 2011 12:59PM

Johnny Walker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So it's all the fault of the people who couldn't
> pay back the loans, not the people who gave them
> the loans or, even more so, the people who knew
> very well the loans they packaged into securities
> and traded around weren't any good are just
> innocent bystanders in the whole thing.


The real estate bust would not and could not have happened without the "end-user" who was willing to take out more of a mortgage than his/her budget could handle. I've never said Wall Street was blameless, but at the end of the day if you took out one of these loans and it was was more than 40% of your monthly income, you have no one to bitch to but yourself.

You can talk until you are blue in the face about the banks, but the collapse happened from the BOTTOM, not the top.

Eat some more Prozac and pray your mortgage will fix itself, it will NOT. You fucked up, the bank was just willing to let you.





> Don't try to deflect this onto some kind of
> "Republican vs Democrat" distraction either. I
> guarantee you the Republicans would have done just
> about the same thing, because there is no way
> the-powers-that-be were going to simply let all
> these big banks and firms just die.


Obama and the Democrat Congress could have easily crafted the bailout legislation to exclude the bonuses the Wall St. fatcats received with taxpayer money, especially after seeing what happened with the bailout when Bush was in office. But competence is not Obama's strong suit.

You chumps who are trying to claim the moral high ground against Wall Street and Big Business still voted for a president who received bigger campaign contributions from banks,traders, brokers etc than the repubs did.Fucking spare us.


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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: notreally ()
Date: March 27, 2011 01:08PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Johnny Walker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Oh so those that caused this recession by
> playing
> > the system "earned" and "deserved" their
> billions
> > in bonuses.
>
> So Wall Street caused the recession and it had
> nothing to do with the end-user idiots who
> overborrowed on mortgages they could never pay
> off? Blame the liquor store but never the
> alcoholic, of course.
>
> Don't forget either, the bailouts that the
> Democrat Congress and Obama supported was also
> used for Wall Street bonuses,
>
> FAIL

The enduser idiot had no knowledge that the inflated values of housing were due to undisclosed 33:1 lending ratios and a completely corrupt system of lending. Indeed if the underwater homeowners were anything the corporations you worship they would walk away from their loans and surrender the homes they used to secure them without a second thought - that would be the only smart business-decision to make.

You see business is, well, business. You ascribing some moral value to a mortgage is bogus. Corporations are unfettered by such drivel. No, the mortgage bubble was nothing more than a fleecing of investors (home buyers and secondary note market share holders). The transfer of wealth went to the bankers and the very wealthy insiders.

Watch this http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/
you are smart, dont be ignorant - we need you.

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POLL- Americans DO NOT TRUST Hillary!
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 27, 2011 01:43PM

Borrowers were often unfortunately also "investors". regardless of the inflated valuation of homes themselves, it means nothing if we are talking about why the loans went bad. If I buy a cabin from you that you say is worth $500,000 and I build my investment and retirement plan around what I think the value I believe that cabin is, you are partially to blame but most of the blame should fall at my feet when I can't sell that cabin for $40,000. The reason I am at fault the most? I swa the cabin as an INVESTMENT, not a home.

I do not understand the your first paragraph, are we asking for loan foregiveness? I am not necessarily against the idea when do-able, I've surely had to let some bad investments go and settle for lesser payment. But the problem there is the re-sell of the loans. It would be easier for a lender to modify terms if he wrote the original note. Some low level consumers and homeowners did the right thing and sold when the market was inflated- are they at fault and should they be liable? They obviously profitted handsomely also.

Haven't seemn "Inside Job" yet, but I am interested. I understand and have witnessed what I thought were ridiculous loan practices, hyperinflated appraisal and other misdemeanors, but I still have only so much pity for the "homeowner/investor" who bought more house than their monthly income could handle or viewed the market as something stable. These people are my neighbors, friends, family etc- they saw $ signs like anyone else. Sorry but I will need a lot of convincing to exonerate these reckless borrowers for fucking up the economy on a micro level.

I never finished high school but somehow I was smart enough not to borrow or buy in 2006 or 2007. Never heard of a rent to mortgage ratio, but I understood that something was wrong when you had to pay more to own a house that you could rent forabout a third less. Go figurer.

notreally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Johnny Walker Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Oh so those that caused this recession by
> > playing
> > > the system "earned" and "deserved" their
> > billions
> > > in bonuses.
> >
> > So Wall Street caused the recession and it had
> > nothing to do with the end-user idiots who
> > overborrowed on mortgages they could never pay
> > off? Blame the liquor store but never the
> > alcoholic, of course.
> >
> > Don't forget either, the bailouts that the
> > Democrat Congress and Obama supported was also
> > used for Wall Street bonuses,
> >
> > FAIL
>
> The enduser idiot had no knowledge that the
> inflated values of housing were due to undisclosed
> 33:1 lending ratios and a completely corrupt
> system of lending. Indeed if the underwater
> homeowners were anything the corporations you
> worship they would walk away from their loans and
> surrender the homes they used to secure them
> without a second thought - that would be the only
> smart business-decision to make.
>
> You see business is, well, business. You
> ascribing some moral value to a mortgage is bogus.
> Corporations are unfettered by such drivel. No,
> the mortgage bubble was nothing more than a
> fleecing of investors (home buyers and secondary
> note market share holders). The transfer of
> wealth went to the bankers and the very wealthy
> insiders.
>
> Watch this http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/
> you are smart, dont be ignorant - we need you.


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2015 10:09AM by WingNut.


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: March 27, 2011 01:56PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Johnny Walker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So it's all the fault of the people who
> couldn't
> > pay back the loans, not the people who gave
> them
> > the loans or, even more so, the people who knew
> > very well the loans they packaged into
> securities
> > and traded around weren't any good are just
> > innocent bystanders in the whole thing.
>
>
> The real estate bust would not and could not have
> happened without the "end-user" who was willing to
> take out more of a mortgage than his/her budget
> could handle. I've never said Wall Street was
> blameless, but at the end of the day if you took
> out one of these loans and it was was more than
> 40% of your monthly income, you have no one to
> bitch to but yourself.
>
> You can talk until you are blue in the face about
> the banks, but the collapse happened from the
> BOTTOM, not the top.
>
> Eat some more Prozac and pray your mortgage will
> fix itself, it will NOT. You fucked up, the bank
> was just willing to let you.

Well first of all, I didn't fuck up. Second, the end-user had to have some kind of documentation of their income, correct? The banks could and should have said no.

I do not hold the end-user, as you say, without blame, but I do not see the others involved as blameless either. And you didn't even address the fact that these guys securitized loans they KNEW were no good, or at least not as solid as they were making them out to be.

> > Don't try to deflect this onto some kind of
> > "Republican vs Democrat" distraction either. I
> > guarantee you the Republicans would have done
> just
> > about the same thing, because there is no way
> > the-powers-that-be were going to simply let all
> > these big banks and firms just die.
>
>
> Obama and the Democrat Congress could have easily
> crafted the bailout legislation to exclude the
> bonuses the Wall St. fatcats received with
> taxpayer money, especially after seeing what
> happened with the bailout when Bush was in office.
> But competence is not Obama's strong suit.
>
> You chumps who are trying to claim the moral high
> ground against Wall Street and Big Business still
> voted for a president who received bigger campaign
> contributions from banks,traders, brokers etc than
> the repubs did.Fucking spare us.
>
>


Anyone who uses terms like "Democrat Congress" really isn't worth arguing with, but I stand by my former statement that it wouldn't have been a whole lot different with Republicans in charge of the White House or one house of Congress or both or all of the above. No one, NO ONE, was going to let those fail. They were, indeed, too big to fail.

I admit the cost of the bailout would have involved a lot more tax cuts, most likely, not that there weren't a bunch in the one we got.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 27, 2011 02:06PM

1)Borrower lies about income on loan to buy home
2) Seller is paid from bank who writes new loan
3) Borrower forecloses, bank is left holding worthless note
(or note that has been resold from another lender)
4) Bailouts with taxpayer money keep the bank afloat

Who is at fault here and WHY?


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 27, 2011 02:16PM

Johnny Walker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not hold the end-user, as you say, without
> blame, but I do not see the others involved as
> blameless either. And you didn't even address the
> fact that these guys securitized loans they KNEW
> were no good, or at least not as solid as they
> were making them out to be.



I could sell you a dumpster filled with shit and you could resell it again and again for a profit- as long as people value that dumpster of shit and as long as they keep up with their legal monthly payments on that dumspter of shit.

Assign that same scenario to the securitized loans that were resold. As long as people kept paying, there was no problem, right?

Why did the end-user/borrower stop paying?

Why did the end-user borrow in the first place.




> Anyone who uses terms like "Democrat Congress"
> really isn't worth arguing with, but I stand by my
> former statement that it wouldn't have been a
> whole lot different with Republicans in charge of
> the White House or one house of Congress or both
> or all of the above. No one, NO ONE, was going to
> let those fail. They were, indeed, too big to
> fail.


I don't fully disagree there at all. As long as you recognize that the Obuma Administration is just as much lapdogs for Wall Street as the repubs potentially are, we agree.

Word to the wise, you don't have to be rich to be greedy and there are always more borrowers than lenders.


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: noooooes ()
Date: March 27, 2011 03:25PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1)Borrower lies about income on loan to buy home
Thats fraud and it is and was illegal. Everyone you know a liar? BTW anyone that loans money and does not verify income/assets/credit record of the person
> 2) Seller is paid from bank who writes new loan
> 3) Borrower forecloses, bank is left holding
> worthless note
> (or note that has been resold from another
> lender)
> 4) Bailouts with taxpayer money keep the bank
> afloat
WE are for electing corporate socialists - let them all fail or regulate the market
>
> Who is at fault here and WHY?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: mcsmack ()
Date: March 27, 2011 05:39PM

Bill N Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mcsmack Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is currently over 3 trillion dollars
> parked
> > over seas held by US owned corporations. I do
> not
> > blame GE or anyone for that matter not wanting
> to
> > re-patriot profit at an effective 35% rate. You
> > would be an idiot to do so.
> >
> > However, bring down the rate in line with the
> > average for developed economies and you will
> see
> > some movement.Cut it in half to 15%.
> >
> > 15% of something is better than 35% of nothing.
>

> BTW I'll give you credit for this much. At least
> you are saying they should pay SOME tax wehn they
> repatriate the funds. There are some out there
> calling for us to allow the funds to be
> repatriated without having to pay ANY taxes.

Sorry I misled you. I would prefer 0 % tax on corporations.The profit is better left in the private sector where it will be spent much more wisely and retain value. but if you want the cost of whatever good or service you are paying for to be higher so be it. It is you the consumer that is paying the corporate tax not the corporation. Some folks will never understand that and I'm afraid you are one of them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: March 27, 2011 05:54PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Johnny Walker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I do not hold the end-user, as you say, without
> > blame, but I do not see the others involved as
> > blameless either. And you didn't even address
> the
> > fact that these guys securitized loans they
> KNEW
> > were no good, or at least not as solid as they
> > were making them out to be.
>
>
>
> I could sell you a dumpster filled with shit and
> you could resell it again and again for a profit-
> as long as people value that dumpster of shit and
> as long as they keep up with their legal monthly
> payments on that dumspter of shit.
>
> Assign that same scenario to the securitized loans
> that were resold. As long as people kept paying,
> there was no problem, right?
>
> Why did the end-user/borrower stop paying?
>
> Why did the end-user borrow in the first place.

Jesus Christ you've answered your own question right here. The borrower stopped paying because they asked for and were given loans they couldn't possibly keep up with. Now, why did they ask for these loans? Because home ownership was supposed to be the one part of the American Dream that was available to any hard-working Regular Joe Six-Pack American, that's why. Why were they given the loan? Shit, I don't know. Why didn't the bank say no? I mean sure these people could probably afford a house, just not the $300,000-$500,000 house they wanted.

Hell why is it all the bottom's fault with you anyways? Is it some sort of reverse trickle-down thing?

You obviously are also missing the point that these loans packages were known to be bad, and they were still trading them without telling those buying them that they were bad, but the rating companies were owned by the same banks that were selling the securities, so they gave them all great ratings. This is, believe it or not, dishonest, even on Wall Street.

Perhaps I should bold all that. Nah. I think you can probably see it fine.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: thinky ()
Date: March 27, 2011 06:10PM

...I know why the loans were approved - they were approved by banks so the banks could perpetuate fraud and resell the high risk loans mixed in with others and still get AAA Bond prices for them. In essence a dumpster filled with shit that they camouflaged as a Rolls Royce.

As to the end-user seeking a loan for 100% value at or beyond their limits to pay the note on - that's called leverage in the business world. You see the bankers were doing just that only instead of leveraging 100% they were leveraging 3,300% to make their money. When the scheme failed as they knew it would we just paid them their losses - pretty smart.

So when you go and blame (rightly or wrongly) the homeowner that overextended please recall that the banks were doing the exact same thing on and astronomical level and they were doing it fraudulently.

Use the brain God gave you and put the pieces together - its the banks not the people...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 27, 2011 06:19PM

For liberals it is never the little guys fault, even when it is.

What kind of idiot buys a home that costs more to own than rent and when that mortgage payment exceeds 40% of their monthly take home?

What kind of asshole expects his home to appreciate evenas low as 5% every single year?

The banks surely perpetated the fraud, but only collapsed when people could no longer pay. ANd they could no longer pay because they also acted as speculators in many cases.

I've never asserted the banks were blameless, but the majority of the blame falls on the (again, remember this term) the end-user. No way to ignore the truth, but you are welcome to continue the blame game, it's easier.


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Inside Job ()
Date: March 27, 2011 06:24PM

See Inside Job the movie it explains everything quite well. You cane rent or just see it at surfthechannel.com

Seriously it is a must see (Academy award winner) and it does not blame any party over another (in fact I think you will see this is the ONE thing the parties do very well together - feed the financial institutions money and feed us BS).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: dono ()
Date: March 27, 2011 06:29PM

Wing watch inside job and stop worrying about liberal vs. conservative its not germane here. I dont mean that rudely I mean it as a statement of fact. Do watch Inside Job for sure.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 27, 2011 06:39PM

THe only reason ther lib vs. conservative thing reletes here is because people are eager to cast the blame at anyone but themselves.

If America isn't willing to take blame, regardless of your economic status, and continue with the reckless borrowing and credit based consumerism, no one will learn shit.

I'm not a banker and I am not defending them, they are not "in my world". What is in my world are the people around me who borrowed foolishly and blame everyone one but themselves for the short sale or foreclosrue or upsidedown mortgage they are going through.

Live and Learn or Repeat.


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: March 27, 2011 06:56PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For liberals it is never the little guys fault,
> even when it is.
>
> What kind of idiot buys a home that costs more to
> own than rent and when that mortgage payment
> exceeds 40% of their monthly take home?
>
> What kind of asshole expects his home to
> appreciate evenas low as 5% every single year?
>
> The banks surely perpetated the fraud, but only
> collapsed when people could no longer pay. ANd
> they could no longer pay because they also acted
> as speculators in many cases.
>
> I've never asserted the banks were blameless, but
> the majority of the blame falls on the (again,
> remember this term) the end-user. No way to ignore
> the truth, but you are welcome to continue the
> blame game, it's easier.

Wingnut - on this one I have to agree with Johnny on part of the issue. Most homeowners or folks out there today really don't know or care to do the budget math. They go in and rely on the law and professionals to give them the correct answers on what they can and cannot do. For folks like myself who own our homes, not only were the values inflated by sales, but also the real estate assessments were going up and up as well (based on sales). A bank would not lend money for many homes without a valid (local municipality) assessment that was at least "close" to the value of the home or real estate in question.

So while the banks certainly worked to perpetuate a bubble "fraud" on folks, they were aided and abetted by both the Federal and local governments. The folks we are supposed to rely on to protect us to some extent from the depredations of business. I took out a loan to expand my home, and did - now the value sits right about where the assessed value is because I went out and found a builder who put my addition on relatively cheaply. There are a lot of people out there that are underwater AND in large CC debt as well. Any significant change in the economy toward further recession OR even inflation/interest rate changes will probably tip the rest of the pot into the fire. These high fuel prices are not helping anyone for sure - and these attempts to impose carbon policies by the EPA... I don't get it. What is this big push to increase the price of energy about? We are going to see the US economy go completely belly up if they push these changes to make energy more expensive for our homes as well.

So really, while I understand the argument that consumers were "bad", there is something to be said about the stupidity of our government, and policies they are enacting to likely bankrupt all of us in the long run.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2011 06:57PM by Registered Voter.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 27, 2011 08:21PM

Sowould you hold the local county assesors office partially to blame?


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: dono ()
Date: March 27, 2011 08:32PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THe only reason ther lib vs. conservative thing
> reletes here is because people are eager to cast
> the blame at anyone but themselves.
>
> If America isn't willing to take blame, regardless
> of your economic status, and continue with the
> reckless borrowing and credit based consumerism,
> no one will learn shit.
>
> I'm not a banker and I am not defending them, they
> are not "in my world". What is in my world are the
> people around me who borrowed foolishly and blame
> everyone one but themselves for the short sale or
> foreclosrue or upsidedown mortgage they are going
> through.
>
> Live and Learn or Repeat.

If you thought it through you could see where the real blame lies and it is not and was not the small investor/borrower. Anyway looking for persons to take 'blame' is just sort of childish apropos to the small investor - it makes no difference. They didnt control the illegal lending market that led to the bubble.

We need oversight, reform and enforcement of sound lending and investing practices - that is the end of the story. That is the end of this lesson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 27, 2011 11:37PM

dono Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you thought it through you could see where the
> real blame lies and it is not and was not the
> small investor/borrower. Anyway looking for
> persons to take 'blame' is just sort of childish
> apropos to the small investor - it makes no
> difference. They didnt control the illegal
> lending market that led to the bubble.

What the fuck? You start a paragraph by saying where the "real blame lies" and then finsish the same apragraph with a scold on how it is childish to blame.

It's not beyond your comprehension, but obviously out of scope of things you are willing to acknowledge. Take off the politicized blinders.If you are unwilling to say that people at the bottom fucked up, you are really doing truth a major disservice.

If the mortgages had been paid, the market would not have crashed and the bubble would not have busted. No one forced ANY loans on ANYONE. If they did, please explain.


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Bill N ()
Date: March 28, 2011 12:29AM

mcsmack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill N Wrote:

> Sorry I misled you. I would prefer 0 % tax on
> corporations.The profit is better left in the
> private sector where it will be spent much more
> wisely and retain value. but if you want the cost
> of whatever good or service you are paying for to
> be higher so be it. It is you the consumer that is
> paying the corporate tax not the corporation. Some
> folks will never understand that and I'm afraid
> you are one of them.

This is of course a myth. Companies can only pass on costs IF they have a sufficiently strong market position to increase the price without losing business. If my company (yes I do own one) was to suddenly decide to bump up its prices to recoup the 35% Federal income taxes it pays, we would likely see clients leave us for competitors that are willing to absorb those costs. Most of the costs of providing goods and services to customers are deductible in determining the amount of income subject to tax, so what corporate income taxes really do is affect the owner's rate of return. In many instances it does not even do that, because owners can frequently figure out tax advantaged ways of removing funds from their companies.

Example: Assume a company paying 35% Federal taxes has $1,000,000 in gross receipts, owner salary of $150,000 and other expenses of $650,000. It will have a taxable income of $200,000, will pay $70,000 in Fed income taxes, and the owner will have a $130,000 return in excess of his salary. Now if the owner decided he wanted to have at least a $200,000 in excess of his salary he'd have to raise his prices by more than 7%. If there is ample competition in the market this price rise would likely cause customers to take their business to other companies.

Now if the company has a sufficiently strong market position, it can raise its prices to offset the taxes without having to worry about losing customers. Of course if it had that strong of a market position, why wouldn't it raise its prices even if it paid NO taxes?

A second problem with your argument is that companies do CONSUME a great deal of the services that governments provide. Who is going to pay for those services?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Bill N ()
Date: March 28, 2011 12:38AM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the mortgages had been paid, the market would
> not have crashed and the bubble would not have
> busted. No one forced ANY loans on ANYONE. If they
> did, please explain.

Wingnut-You and I have gone at it on this one before. Of course nobody forced any borrowers to take the loans, but nobody was forcing lenders to make bad loans either. (Actually there was some forced lending and borrowing, but that is another story.) Lenders did it for two reasons: The first was that many of them were betting that when the borrower defaulted they would be more than able to recover their loans plus some extra from foreclosing on the property in an appreciating market. The second was that the even smarter lenders figured out how to make money on the loan transaction itself without taking any of the risk in the event the borrower defaulted, regardless of whether real estate prices continued to appreciate.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: dono ()
Date: March 28, 2011 09:07AM

The homeowner took advantage of available money in exchange for an asset they were willing to forfeit. They no longer see profit in holding the debt or the asset thus according to the contract they deliver the asset.

Thats all there is to it its business. If you want to make it into a moral play fine Im sorry your asset is diminished because of these market forces but if as you see 'you should have seen' the inflated growth etc then its your fault for not selling and reinvesting when you had the chance.

You see you share a common trait with those defaulting - you believed in the system. You believed that, though inflated, the value of your home would not go DOWN.

Now for what to do - you gonna be the farm on consumer restraint should another scam occur where money is thrown into the market with no responsibility? Id rather focus on the source and make sure that doesnt happen again. In the end we agree to disagree. You want some kind massive change in consumer values. I recommend a more practical approach would be to address the root causes - financial loan/investment reform such as re-instatement of Glass-Steagall.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 28, 2011 09:38AM

Making a loan so good and easy to get may be enticing and alluring, but it is not a forced loan.

Consumers sometimes need an unfortunately hard lesson to learn new consumer values.

The very best you will get out of me is a partial concession of a shared negligence. I just see a lot of people going the easier, more diplomatic and less locally confronttional route of blaming the mess on banks, Bush or even the Community Reinvestment Act.

People made BAD BAD decisions and need to have some self-honesty.


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Date: March 28, 2011 09:43AM

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still support lowering the corporate tax rates,
> but why the hell don't corporations pay AMT or
> something similar?

Because corporations are taxed on net income, not gross revenue. That's why this argument about our corporate tax rates being too high is a bunch of bullshit. Corporations pay very little tax in this country compared to individuals.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: mcsmack ()
Date: March 28, 2011 11:22AM

Well we have choices to make here.

1) Lower the rate and repatriate some of the cash through private investing

2) Change the laws and force repatriation thereby outright confiscating private capital.

3) Leave things the same and incentivize the money to be invested places other than the USA.

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Re: Makes Sense - Keep the folks best at dodging taxes working for you.
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: March 28, 2011 12:45PM

WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Registered Voter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I still support lowering the corporate tax
> rates,
> > but why the hell don't corporations pay AMT or
> > something similar?
>
> Because corporations are taxed on net income, not
> gross revenue. That's why this argument about our
> corporate tax rates being too high is a bunch of
> bullshit. Corporations pay very little tax in this
> country compared to individuals.

Then it really needs to be an either/or kind of system. They should have a minimum tax rate that they will pay based on Gross Revenues, and one calculated from Net Income. Whichever is higher, that is what they should pay. That way they can take advantage of all the tax loopholes in the world, with the understanding that their bottom line tax liability will still be something "other than 0".

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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