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Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: trogdor! ()
Date: June 02, 2010 06:23PM


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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 02, 2010 06:24PM

Proof..that guns kill people..people merely pull the trigger.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: trogdor! ()
Date: June 02, 2010 06:36PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Proof..that guns kill people..people merely pull
> the trigger.

And cleavers
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/13/world/la-fg-china-school-attack-20100513

And hammers

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/chinese-man-attacks-five-pre-school-children-with-iron-hammer-before-killing-himself/story-e6frfku0-1225860690680

kill people by merely swinging them. Not sure what that really tells us though. The one constant here, is crazy people doing crazy things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2010 06:36PM by trogdor!.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 02, 2010 06:43PM

trogdor! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Proof..that guns kill people..people merely
> pull
> > the trigger.
>
> And cleavers
> http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/13/world/la-f
> g-china-school-attack-20100513
>
> And hammers
>
> http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/chinese-man-a
> ttacks-five-pre-school-children-with-iron-hammer-b
> efore-killing-himself/story-e6frfku0-1225860690680
>
>
> kill people by merely swinging them. Not sure
> what that really tells us though. The one
> constant here, is crazy people doing crazy things.


Effectiveness

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Warhawk ()
Date: June 02, 2010 06:47PM

Whether by gun, knife, hammer, drill, axe, rope, bare hands, etc. - if somebody wants to kill people badly enough, they'll find SOMETHING to facilitate the action.

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 02, 2010 09:11PM

Warhawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whether by gun, knife, hammer, drill, axe, rope,
> bare hands, etc. - if somebody wants to kill
> people badly enough, they'll find SOMETHING to
> facilitate the action.


+1 At least in America we don't live in fear of bombs going off on a daily basis like some first world nations.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Date: June 02, 2010 10:10PM

The tragedy is the worst British massacre since 16 children and one adult died in Dunblane in 1996.

If it had happened here, it would have been the worst American massacre since 2009.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Date: June 02, 2010 10:20PM

Here is a list of U.S. school shootings...just school shootings and not workplace shootings or church shootings or any other kind of mass shooting...since 1996


Bethel Regional High School shooting
Bethel, Alaska, United States February 19 1997 2

Pearl High School shooting
Pearl, Mississippi, United States October 1 1997 2

Heath High School shooting
Paducah, Kentucky, United States December 4 1997 3

Westside Middle School shooting
Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States March 24 1998 5

Parker Middle School dance shooting
Edinboro, Pennsylvania, United States April 24 1998 1

Thurston High School shooting
Springfield, Oregon, United States May 20 1998 2

Columbine High School massacre
Littleton, Colorado, United States April 20 1999 13

Heritage High School shooting
Conyers, Georgia, United States May 20 1999 0

Fort Gibson Middle School shooting
Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, United States December 6 1999 0

Buell Elementary School shooting
Mount Morris Township, Michigan, United States February 29 2000 1

Lake Worth Middle School shooting
Lake Worth, Florida, United States May 26 2000 1

University of Arkansas shooting
Fayetteville, Arkansas, United States August 28 2000 2

Santana High School shooting
Santee, California, United States March 5 2001 2

Granite Hills High School shooting
El Cajon, California, United States March 22 2001 0

Martin Luther King, Jr. High School shooting
Manhattan, New York, United States January 15 2002 0

Appalachian School of Law shooting
Grundy, Virginia, United States January 16 2002 3

John McDonogh High School shooting
New Orleans, Louisiana, United States April 14 2003 1

Red Lion Area Junior High School shootings
Red Lion, Pennsylvania, United States April 24 2003 2

Case Western Reserve University shooting
Cleveland, Ohio, United States May 9 2003 1

Rocori High School shooting
Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States September 24 2003 2

Columbia High School shooting
East Greenbush, New York, United States February 9 2004 0

Fairleigh Dickinson University shooting
Florham Park, New Jersey, United States April 4 2004 2

Randallstown High School shooting
Randallstown, Maryland, United States May 7 2004 0

Red Lake Senior High School massacre
Red Lake, Minnesota, United States March 21 2005 8

Campbell County High School shooting
Jacksboro, Tennessee, United States November 8 2005 1

Pine Middle School shooting
Reno, Nevada, United States March 14 2006 0

Essex Elementary School shooting
Essex, Vermont, United States August 24 2006 2

Orange High School shooting
Hillsborough, North Carolina, United States August 30 2006 1

Platte Canyon High School shooting
Bailey, Colorado, United States September 27 2006 2

Weston High School shooting
Cazenovia, Wisconsin, United States September 29 2006 1

Amish school shooting
Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States October 2 2006 6

Henry Foss High School shooting
Tacoma, Washington, United States January 3 2007 1

University of Washington shooting
Seattle, Washington, United States April 2 2007 2

Virginia Tech massacre
Blacksburg, Virginia, United States April 16 2007 32

Delaware State University shooting
Dover, Delaware, United States September 21 2007 1

SuccessTech Academy shooting
Cleveland, Ohio, United States October 10 2007 1

Louisiana Technical College shooting
Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States February 8 2008 3

Mitchell High School shooting
Memphis, Tennessee, United States February 11 2008 0

E.O. Green School shooting
Oxnard, California, United States February 12 2008 1

Northern Illinois University massacre
DeKalb, Illinois, United States February 14 2008 6

Davidson High School Shooting
Mobile, Alabama, United States March 9 2008 1

Central High School shooting
Knoxville, Tennessee, United States August 21 2008 1

Henry Ford High School shooting
Detroit, Michigan, United States October 16 2008 1

2008 University of Central Arkansas shootings
Conway, Arkansas, United States October 27 2008 2

Dillard High School shooting
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, United States November 12 2008 1

Henry Ford Community College shooting
Dearborn, Michigan, United States April 10 2009 2

Wesleyan University1
Middletown, Connecticut, United States May 1 2009 1

Canandaigua Academy shooting
Canandaigua, New York, United States May 5 2009 1

Harvard University
Cambridge,Massachusetts, United States May 18 2009 1

Larose-Cut Off Middle School shooting
Larose, Louisiana, United States May 18 2009 1

Skyline College shooting
San Bruno, California, United States September 2 2009 0

Atlanta University Center
Atlanta , Georgia, United States September 3 2009 1

Deer Valley High School shooting
Antioch, California, United States September 16 2009 0

Northern Virginia Community College
Woodbridge, Virginia, United States December 8 2009 0

Discovery Middle School
Madison, Alabama, United States February 6 2010 1

University of Alabama in Huntsville
Huntsville, Alabama, United States February 12 2010 3

Deer Creek Middle School
Jefferson County, Colorado, United States February 23 2010 0

Birney Elementary School
Tacoma, Washington, United States February 26 2010 1

Ohio State University
Columbus, Ohio, United States March 9 2010 2

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: help me ()
Date: June 02, 2010 10:50PM

What are the numbers after the dates the number of people killed?

"Ohio State University
Columbus, Ohio, United States March 9 2010 2"

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Date: June 02, 2010 10:51PM

help me Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What are the numbers after the dates the number of
> people killed?
>
> "Ohio State University
> Columbus, Ohio, United States March 9 2010 2"

Yes. Not all shootings resulted in deaths, though they may have resulted in wounded.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: help me ()
Date: June 02, 2010 10:55PM

thanks.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: June 03, 2010 12:42AM

Yeah, not like the UK has any problems in their schools... But the moron brigade here has to support each other in their spurious claims. Sure, it isn't guns, but I like the teacher that was poisoned by a student, and the 3000 Arson attacks on schools. Brilliant.

Classroom violence
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/classroomviolence

Nearly 3,000 school arson attacks in two years
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/may/22/arson-attacks-in-schools

Primary schools suspend 14 violent under-fives every day
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/dec/31/suspended-violent-primary-school-pupils
Quote

...
Fourteen children aged five or under are suspended from primary schools in England every day for violence against teachers or pupils, official statistics revealed today.

The number receiving fixed period exclusions for violence in 2007-08 rose by 6% on the year before, to more than 2,600.

Almost two-thirds of the assaults were against adults, the figures show, and 30 of the children sent home were aged only three. There were 830 four-year-olds disciplined for violence and 1,750 five-year-olds.

The figures also show that 10 children aged four, and 20 aged five, were suspended for "sexual misconduct". Twenty five-year-olds received fixed period exclusions for bullying, and there was a slight increase in the number of suspensions among pupils aged up to 11 for incidents of racist abuse, from 340 to 390.
...

Yeah, seriously? 2/3 of the 2600 violent 3 to 5 year olds were suspended due to violence against ADULTS? WTF is going on in UK? Evidently they have a BIG problem with knife assaults - they have a whole campaign on sending text messages to identify knife wielding children at school.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Britdrnva~ ()
Date: June 03, 2010 09:17AM

England isn't gun free - just guns are very tightly regulated. The overall incidence of homicide due to fire arms in England is miniscule compared to the USA.

First off the murder rate is ~1.1:100,000 in the UK(Homeoffice), in the US - the ratio is 5.4:100,000 of that ratio 60% is gun related so 3.1:100,000 is gun related (FBI).

In England the murder rate is 5 times lower than in the US and the incidence of guns in the commission of murder is a fraction overall.

Nonetheless this doesn't take away from the crime which is awful as I'm from that part of the world. No one would suspect any such thing like that occurring there. One of the most peaceful and bucolic places I know. Tis ashame.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: pgens ()
Date: June 03, 2010 09:26AM

This is an outrage. When will they make murdering people with firearms illegal? They need new laws to stop these incidents!!

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 03, 2010 09:33AM

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is an outrage. When will they make murdering
> people with firearms illegal? They need new laws
> to stop these incidents!!

If murder is outlawed, only outlaws will murder, you fascist!

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 03, 2010 09:37AM

Britdrnva~ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> England isn't gun free - just guns are very
> tightly regulated. The overall incidence of
> homicide due to fire arms in England is miniscule
> compared to the USA.
>
> First off the murder rate is ~1.1:100,000 in the
> UK(Homeoffice), in the US - the ratio is
> 5.4:100,000 of that ratio 60% is gun related so
> 3.1:100,000 is gun related (FBI).
>
> In England the murder rate is 5 times lower than
> in the US and the incidence of guns in the
> commission of murder is a fraction overall.
>
> Nonetheless this doesn't take away from the crime
> which is awful as I'm from that part of the world.
> No one would suspect any such thing like that
> occurring there. One of the most peaceful and
> bucolic places I know. Tis ashame.

The US also has 6 times the population of England.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Britdrnva~ ()
Date: June 03, 2010 10:40AM

MrMephisto wrote:
"The US also has 6 times the population of England."

Absolutely that's why I did a ratio comparison - divide the # of crimes by the population to 100k level = accurate cross description analysis between any nation.

So if US has 5.4 per 100,000 and England has 1.1 per 100,000 it doesn't matter what the population is unless the population is <100k, then you'd use a 50k ratio number or whatever population you're cross analysing.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 03, 2010 11:19AM

Britdrnva~ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So if US has 5.4 per 100,000 and England has 1.1
> per 100,000 it doesn't matter what the population
> is unless the population is <100k, then you'd use
> a 50k ratio number or whatever population you're
> cross analysing.

I understand that. But, I think population density is a not-insignificant part of crime. The more people there are closer together, the more crime.

For example, England has six cities with a population greater than 400,000. The US has forty-four.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Al Capone ()
Date: June 03, 2010 01:00PM


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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 03, 2010 01:19PM

Al Capone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More guns, less crime.
>
> http://article.nationalreview.com/435304/guns-and-
> crime-in-chicago/john-r-lott-jr


Lies...the biggest contributing factor to any reduction in violent crimes is the aging population...not the guns.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Britdrnva~ ()
Date: June 03, 2010 01:24PM

Again MrMephisto you're partially right - increased population density usually does correspond with greater crime rates - but only in the US. England has a much greater population density than in the US (from Wikipedia):

England ranks 51st with 659 people p/sq mile.
USA ranks 178th with 83 p/sq mile.

Though we have far fewer big cities than the US - we just don't have the space - just about 85% of 60+ million English people live south of Manchester/Liverpool line. So you effectively have 51 million people living in the space of VA+MD.

The population density is much greater overall but still English homicide rates are orders of magnitude less. The US is simply a violent nation made all the more so with the incredible ease one has to procure guns.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: CopperheadRoad ()
Date: June 03, 2010 01:39PM


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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 03, 2010 01:48PM

Britdrnva~ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again MrMephisto you're partially right -
> increased population density usually does
> correspond with greater crime rates - but only in
> the US. England has a much greater population
> density than in the US (from Wikipedia):
>
> England ranks 51st with 659 people p/sq mile.
> USA ranks 178th with 83 p/sq mile.

We also have many more square miles than England, but I do see your point.

> Though we have far fewer big cities than the US -
> we just don't have the space - just about 85% of
> 60+ million English people live south of
> Manchester/Liverpool line. So you effectively
> have 51 million people living in the space of
> VA+MD.
>
> The population density is much greater overall but
> still English homicide rates are orders of
> magnitude less. The US is simply a violent nation
> made all the more so with the incredible ease one
> has to procure guns.

Are we talking about the homicide rates, or gun-related homicides only? If it's the latter, then of course England will be lower than the US. Knife violence, on the other hand...

Ultimately, I don't believe statistics. Wikipedia also says that England is 88% white, while the US is 80%. A person could say that has an effect on the rates, too.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 03, 2010 04:10PM

You can believe what you want..but the fact is..the more guns..the more death by guns...the more death by guns..the more total deaths.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2010 04:10PM by Vince(1).

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 03, 2010 04:16PM

Some statistics include self-inflicted gunshot wounds/suicides in their total number of gun related homicides, which is bullshit.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: June 03, 2010 04:47PM

More total people = more total deaths.

And that is independent of weapon type.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 03, 2010 04:49PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can believe what you want..but the fact
> is..the more guns..the more death by guns...the
> more death by guns..the more total deaths.

To that, I respond:

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can believe what you want..

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Harry Tuttle ()
Date: June 03, 2010 05:37PM

Right on the money, pgens...

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is an outrage. When will they make murdering
> people with firearms illegal? They need new laws
> to stop these incidents!!

Signatures are for fags

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: AR-15 ()
Date: June 03, 2010 05:51PM

American Injustice - Lying Judges and Lawyers
The Second Amendment

American Injustice - Lying Judges and Lawyers


During World War II, American civilians shipped personal firearms to Britain in response to a desperate plea for firearms to defend British homes.

It was a noble effort in which America gave firearms, ammunition and equipment to our soon-to-be allies who were on the very brink of collapse in the face of Nazi armies. It was the gift of everyday American citizens to our British cousins in need.

Those were dark days when the free nations of the world expected nothing but defeat by our enemies. On May 25, 1940, the British army had been beaten at a place on the French coast called Dunkirk. In a heroic evacuation - carried out in no small part by private citizens in small private boats - the men of the British army escaped. But they left virtually all of their small arms behind. Once back in England, soldiers had to drill with sticks.

In November 1940, Americans fully expected the Nazi invasion and defeat of the British Isles.

Page six of the November 1940 issue of American Rifleman carried a very important appeal headline: "SEND A GUN TO DEFEND A BRITISH HOME." It explained: "British civilians, faced with threat of invasion, desperately need arms for defense of their homes. THE AMERICAN COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF BRITISH HOMES has organized to collect gifts of pistols, rifles, revolvers, shotguns, binoculars from American civilians who wish to answer the call and aid in defense of British homes. The arms are being shipped, with the consent of the British Government, to CIVILIAN COMMITTEE FOR PROTECTION OF HOMES, BIRMINGHAM, ENGLAND."

And NRA members responded with the donation of thousands of small arms including rifles, shotguns, revolvers and pistols.

Now in 1997, some of the handguns that will be confiscated from private homes by the British Government may be some of the very same guns that were given by NRA members so that British commoners could defend themselves.

Our nation is run and influenced by people who ignore the lessons of history. It is obvious that the Clinton Administration - perhaps as caustic a danger to our liberties and Freedom as we have ever faced- has no use for history.

Nor do its camp followers in the media. Historians are the keepers of the truth. History and the truth it protects are impediments to what people like Charles Schumer and Bill Clinton want.

In 1940, when NRA members gave arms to their free British cousins, it was to stem an invasion.

People in the Clinton Administration would laugh at the notion of individuals - free men and women - in this day, using personal arms to defend against an invasion.

Yet that is precisely what Americans are facing.

Violent crime is an invasion as dangerous as any by soldiers of any foreign power. Everything about unlawful armed force against innocent persons is an invasion. A criminal in your home is an invasion. A criminal in your car is an invasion. A criminal in your face is an invasion.

Another invasion is imminent - this one by government, to take your property.

And history may repeat itself. What the British do today to disarm their contemporary citizens is the same action they took to disarm their citizens in 1776 - when the people in the 13 colonies called themselves Englishmen. That is why we are not British. That is why we founded the United States of America. That is why we have the Bill of Rights. And that is why we have the Second Amendment.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: AR-15 ()
Date: June 04, 2010 10:48AM

AR-15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> American Injustice - Lying Judges and Lawyers
> The Second Amendment
>
> American Injustice - Lying Judges and Lawyers
>
>
> During World War II, American civilians shipped
> personal firearms to Britain in response to a
> desperate plea for firearms to defend British
> homes.
>
> It was a noble effort in which America gave
> firearms, ammunition and equipment to our
> soon-to-be allies who were on the very brink of
> collapse in the face of Nazi armies. It was the
> gift of everyday American citizens to our British
> cousins in need.
>
> Those were dark days when the free nations of the
> world expected nothing but defeat by our enemies.
> On May 25, 1940, the British army had been beaten
> at a place on the French coast called Dunkirk. In
> a heroic evacuation - carried out in no small part
> by private citizens in small private boats - the
> men of the British army escaped. But they left
> virtually all of their small arms behind. Once
> back in England, soldiers had to drill with
> sticks.
>
> In November 1940, Americans fully expected the
> Nazi invasion and defeat of the British Isles.
>
> Page six of the November 1940 issue of American
> Rifleman carried a very important appeal headline:
> "SEND A GUN TO DEFEND A BRITISH HOME." It
> explained: "British civilians, faced with threat
> of invasion, desperately need arms for defense of
> their homes. THE AMERICAN COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF
> BRITISH HOMES has organized to collect gifts of
> pistols, rifles, revolvers, shotguns, binoculars
> from American civilians who wish to answer the
> call and aid in defense of British homes. The arms
> are being shipped, with the consent of the British
> Government, to CIVILIAN COMMITTEE FOR PROTECTION
> OF HOMES, BIRMINGHAM, ENGLAND."
>
> And NRA members responded with the donation of
> thousands of small arms including rifles,
> shotguns, revolvers and pistols.
>
> Now in 1997, some of the handguns that will be
> confiscated from private homes by the British
> Government may be some of the very same guns that
> were given by NRA members so that British
> commoners could defend themselves.
>
> Our nation is run and influenced by people who
> ignore the lessons of history. It is obvious that
> the Clinton Administration - perhaps as caustic a
> danger to our liberties and Freedom as we have
> ever faced- has no use for history.
>
> Nor do its camp followers in the media. Historians
> are the keepers of the truth. History and the
> truth it protects are impediments to what people
> like Charles Schumer and Bill Clinton want.
>
> In 1940, when NRA members gave arms to their free
> British cousins, it was to stem an invasion.
>
> People in the Clinton Administration would laugh
> at the notion of individuals - free men and women
> - in this day, using personal arms to defend
> against an invasion.
>
> Yet that is precisely what Americans are facing.
>
> Violent crime is an invasion as dangerous as any
> by soldiers of any foreign power. Everything about
> unlawful armed force against innocent persons is
> an invasion. A criminal in your home is an
> invasion. A criminal in your car is an invasion. A
> criminal in your face is an invasion.
>
> Another invasion is imminent - this one by
> government, to take your property.
>
> And history may repeat itself. What the British do
> today to disarm their contemporary citizens is the
> same action they took to disarm their citizens in
> 1776 - when the people in the 13 colonies called
> themselves Englishmen. That is why we are not
> British. That is why we founded the United States
> of America. That is why we have the Bill of
> Rights. And that is why we have the Second
> Amendment.


All of a sudden dead silence? LOL!

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: pgens ()
Date: June 04, 2010 11:14AM

The post was too long, everybody is still sleeping.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Britdrnva~ ()
Date: June 04, 2010 12:07PM

AR-15 give me the synopsis I can't be bothered to read all that.

Registered Voter wrote:
"More total people = more total deaths.

And that is independent of weapon type."

Indeed there is a corresponding increase in deaths with more people in a country as an overall absolute #. But when you divide the absolute you get a ratio that is accurate across all like populations. The 5.4 vs 1.1 statistic is accurate in that regard.

But your assumption that more total people = more total deaths is inaccurate. India which has a population four times that of the US ranks 26th in murder rates (the US 24th)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

The ratio statistic is a better use of analysis in this regard.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 04, 2010 01:12PM

Britdrnva~ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AR-15 give me the synopsis I can't be bothered to
> read all that.

In WWII, Americans gave guns to Britains for defense. In 1997, Britain confiscated the guns Americans gave them. Clinton was an evil president. Guns are awesome.

I would hope they'd confiscate handguns from WWII... Those things were probably old and defective, and a backfire could have seriously injured someone. Maybe a kid, even!

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: June 04, 2010 04:08PM

Britdrnva - my statement was in response to this inanity:

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can believe what you want..but the fact
> is..the more guns..the more death by guns...the
> more death by guns..the more total deaths.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 04, 2010 04:12PM

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Britdrnva - my statement was in response to this
> inanity:
>
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You can believe what you want..but the fact
> > is..the more guns..the more death by guns...the
> > more death by guns..the more total deaths.


The truth shall set you free!

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 04, 2010 06:56PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I would hope they'd confiscate handguns from
> WWII... Those things were probably old and
> defective, and a backfire could have seriously
> injured someone.



Firearms can backfire just because they're old? Another helpful tidbit from someone that learned about guns from playing Call of Duty.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 04, 2010 07:31PM

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > I would hope they'd confiscate handguns from
> > WWII... Those things were probably old and
> > defective, and a backfire could have seriously
> > injured someone.
>
> Firearms can backfire just because they're old?
> Another helpful tidbit from someone that learned
> about guns from playing Call of Duty.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 04, 2010 08:01PM

Ah yes, the artful dodge at work.



Here, I found some more training material for you to watch so you can share even more half-baked knowledge about firearms.







Predicted response(s): Bottle of perfume altered in Paint, statement that my response embodies quote in sig line, anonymous posts with PWNED and FAIL pics.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2010 10:13PM by eesh.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Date: June 04, 2010 08:43PM

I'm not going to bash gun ownership because I believe the 2nd Amendment protects the right to bear arms. I personally don't own guns, but I don't believe that should mean you shouldn't own them within the confines of the law.

That said, I wish the NRA and gun owners would drop these stupid and false arguments in favor of gun ownership, such as the subject of this thread. There is ample evidence that the presence of guns lead to more violent crimes and murders. If you have a firearm in your home, the odds are exponentially greater that that weapon will be used to kill you or a family member either by accident or as part of a domestic dispute than it will be used to kill an intruder. There are more mass murders in the U.S. because of the prevalence of guns.

The only logical and defensible argument out there for unfettered gun ownership is this...

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Frankly, the NRA should be challenging the Constitutionality of all state and local gun laws based on that last part of "shall not be infringed." Basically, the 2nd Amendment says to me that Federal law and the Constitution prevent any government from restricting gun ownership at any level.

Not that I believe we should do that. But strictly on a Constitutional basis, the NRA is correct.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2010 08:45PM by WashingTone-Locian.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 04, 2010 09:26PM

WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That said, I wish the NRA and gun owners would
> drop these stupid and false arguments in favor of
> gun ownership, such as the subject of this thread.
> There is ample evidence that the presence of guns
> lead to more violent crimes and murders. If you
> have a firearm in your home, the odds are
> exponentially greater that that weapon will be
> used to kill you or a family member either by
> accident or as part of a domestic dispute than it
> will be used to kill an intruder. There are more
> mass murders in the U.S. because of the prevalence
> of guns.

According to the Great Oracle, Wikipedia...

The firearm-related death rate in America is around 12 per 100,000 per year, which translates into approximately 36,000 deaths per year (I did my math using the shitty Windows calculator, so sorry if the numbers don't add up right).

The number of motor vehicle-related deaths was around 34,000 in 2009, and motor vehicles are designed to be safe. Guns are not.

My point is, legislating against anything is only going to reduce, not eliminate, the problem. Guns are statistically only slightly more dangerous than cars.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 04, 2010 10:25PM

WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Frankly, the NRA should be challenging the
> Constitutionality of all state and local gun laws
> based on that last part of "shall not be
> infringed." Basically, the 2nd Amendment says to
> me that Federal law and the Constitution prevent
> any government from restricting gun ownership at
> any level.



+1000

Virginia used to allow local jurisdictions to have their own gun laws; for instance, in Falls Church open carry was outlawed, and some counties required a waiting period for purchasing handguns.

(Local jurisdictions still have some abilities to regulate firearms http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915 http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915.2)


What's really crazy is places like Illinois and California where every county has their own set of gun laws, so you really can't travel or move outside your county with a firearm without being a criminal of some kind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2010 10:26PM by eesh.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: pgens ()
Date: June 04, 2010 10:39PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My point is, legislating against anything is only
> going to reduce, not eliminate, the problem. Guns
> are statistically only slightly more dangerous
> than cars.

+1, and cars aren't a Constitutional right while firearms are. Why is there an argument again?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 04, 2010 11:18PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That said, I wish the NRA and gun owners would
> > drop these stupid and false arguments in favor
> of
> > gun ownership, such as the subject of this
> thread.
> > There is ample evidence that the presence of
> guns
> > lead to more violent crimes and murders. If you
> > have a firearm in your home, the odds are
> > exponentially greater that that weapon will be
> > used to kill you or a family member either by
> > accident or as part of a domestic dispute than
> it
> > will be used to kill an intruder. There are
> more
> > mass murders in the U.S. because of the
> prevalence
> > of guns.
>
> According to the Great Oracle, Wikipedia...
>
> The firearm-related death rate in America is
> around 12 per 100,000 per year, which translates
> into approximately 36,000 deaths per year (I did
> my math using the shitty Windows calculator, so
> sorry if the numbers don't add up right).
>
> The number of motor vehicle-related deaths was
> around 34,000 in 2009, and motor vehicles are
> designed to be safe. Guns are not.
>
> My point is, legislating against anything is only
> going to reduce, not eliminate, the problem. Guns
> are statistically only slightly more dangerous
> than cars.


And every effort has been made to make cars as safe as possible. If today a car company tried to produce a car without seat belts...that company would be sued for faulty design. No substantive efforts to make guns safer have been made since the safety lock was designed...and gun manufacturers are protected from such law suits.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2010 11:19PM by Vince(1).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 04, 2010 11:25PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> No substantive
> efforts to make guns safer have been made since
> the safety lock was designed...



When you invent something better, let us know.


> and gun
> manufacturers are protected from such law suits.




Huh? Many people have sued firearm manufacturers, many frivolous lawsuits using consumer product liability as cover.


https://www.facworld.com/facworld.nsf/doc/gun1000litig

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:41AM

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My point is, legislating against anything is
> only
> > going to reduce, not eliminate, the problem.
> Guns
> > are statistically only slightly more dangerous
> > than cars.
>
> +1, and cars aren't a Constitutional right while
> firearms are. Why is there an argument again?


because mommy dearest thing billy the idiot boy is going to accidently blow his fucking head off.

i say give everyone guns and then we'll see who the real cowards are.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 05, 2010 09:24AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Progressive Guy ()
Date: June 05, 2010 09:30AM

If a worldwide ban on firearms sales and production was properly in place, there would be no instances like this. The United Kingdom is in a situation like New York and Washington where they are flooded with firearms from states like Virginia that do not care about the violence.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 05, 2010 09:51AM

Progressive Guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If a worldwide ban on firearms sales and
> production was properly in place, there would be
> no instances like this. The United Kingdom is in a
> situation like New York and Washington where they
> are flooded with firearms from states like
> Virginia that do not care about the violence.

Dont fall into the trap of needing end all firearm deaths to justify gun control. The human being...being what he/she is would find a way to home manufacture firearms...if need be. The goal of gun control is reduce the instances of firearms related deaths. It does that...very effectively.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Progressive Guy ()
Date: June 05, 2010 09:53AM

But if the tools needed to build guns are banned how will people build them?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 05, 2010 09:56AM

Oh well..I tried to throw a life line to you..but you failed to grab it. Perhaps the "in-crowd" here will have pity on your soul and ignore your comment. They wouldnt if I had said that...but thats the ditch Ive dug myself into. Anyways...good luck!

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Progressive Guy ()
Date: June 05, 2010 10:13AM

I know there will still be murder if all guns are outlawed. Do not be ridiculous. What I am saying is to ban guns, ownership, ammunition and the means of production in a global and cooperative form is the only way.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: pgens ()
Date: June 05, 2010 10:43AM

Progressive Guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If a worldwide ban on firearms sales and
> production was properly in place, there would be
> no instances like this. The United Kingdom is in a
> situation like New York and Washington where they
> are flooded with firearms from states like
> Virginia that do not care about the violence.


How nice, once we have attained absolutely guaranteed world peace where humanity no longer requires standing armies or police forces we can get rid of all firearm and ammunition production methods. Let me know when you have that done and we'll continue the thread from there.

Oh and when you fix other worldwide bans like maritime piracy you can apply those lessons learned to your proposals for how a worldwide gun ban, with no worldwide government, will be enforced.

And get your priorities straight, UK has a bigger knife violence problem than gun violence problem. Get them to ban all knives first, then you can work on guns.

Pie-in-the-sky statements like those you are making are retarded without followup with a reasoned explanation of how exactly that would be done. I might as well say "If Google would properly put in place a system where you could type 'transport all people who will commit violence against another human being to deep space' into a search box and have it really work there would be no instance like this."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: June 05, 2010 02:47PM

Progressive Guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But if the tools needed to build guns are banned
> how will people build them?


a) the machines used to create guns are not exclusively for building guns.
b) it doesnt take a genius to build a gun. seriously, you can go to home depot and get everything you need to build a shotgun.

you arent progressive. you are naive.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Smithy ()
Date: June 05, 2010 03:21PM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Progressive Guy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > But if the tools needed to build guns are
> banned
> > how will people build them?
>
> a) the machines used to create guns are not
> exclusively for building guns.
> b) it doesnt take a genius to build a gun.
> seriously, you can go to home depot and get
> everything you need to build a shotgun.
>
> you arent progressive. you are naive.

+1

Home Depot has all the equipment for a shotgun but if you want to make
a rifle or pistol, all you need is a very common machine such as this
one:

http://www.smithy.com/products.php?cid=1

This kind of equipment is very readily available and affordable. It amuses
me when I see how naive some people are but here in the Yuppiedom of
Fairfax, a lot of people haven't a clue. Guess only blue-collar have
ever heard of a machine shop.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 05, 2010 04:25PM

Progressive Guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know there will still be murder if all guns are
> outlawed. Do not be ridiculous. What I am saying
> is to ban guns, ownership, ammunition and the
> means of production in a global and cooperative
> form is the only way.


So far..the comments have been very kind!

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Progressive Guy ()
Date: June 05, 2010 04:38PM

You can say I'm a dreamer, BUT I"M NOT THE ONLY ONE.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Kenny_Powers ()
Date: June 05, 2010 04:49PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Proof..that guns kill people..people merely pull
> the trigger.


GUNS ARE FUCKING FUN TO SHOOT ASSHOLE!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:07PM

A lot of these gun deaths could be prevented if they reduced the muzzle velocity of the bullets by increasing the grains of the bullets. Additional hammer and firing pin rifling could compensate for the loss of feets per second, allowing guns to be safer, but just as lethal.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: bloody blisters ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:12PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A lot of these gun deaths could be prevented if
> they reduced the muzzle velocity of the bullets by
> increasing the grains of the bullets. Additional
> hammer and firing pin rifling could compensate for
> the loss of feets per second, allowing guns to be
> safer, but just as lethal.


what?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:17PM

bloody blisters Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A lot of these gun deaths could be prevented if
> > they reduced the muzzle velocity of the bullets
> by
> > increasing the grains of the bullets.
> Additional
> > hammer and firing pin rifling could compensate
> for
> > the loss of feets per second, allowing guns to
> be
> > safer, but just as lethal.
>
>
> what?

It's technical. I don't expect you to understand.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: bloody blisters ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:20PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> It's technical. I don't expect you to understand.


oh ok, carry on then.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:29PM

bloody blisters Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A lot of these gun deaths could be prevented if
> > they reduced the muzzle velocity of the bullets
> by
> > increasing the grains of the bullets.
> Additional
> > hammer and firing pin rifling could compensate
> for
> > the loss of feets per second, allowing guns to
> be
> > safer, but just as lethal.
>
>
> what?



It's an attempt at sarcasm since I made fun of the fact he thinks a pistol can backfire simply because it's "old."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Sarcasm Watch ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:35PM

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's an attempt at sarcasm since I made fun of the
> fact he thinks a pistol can backfire simply
> because it's "old."


That's not sarcasm. It's an inside joke.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:39PM

bloody blisters Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > It's technical. I don't expect you to
> understand.
>
>
> oh ok, carry on then.

Ok, I'll explain. The powder in the bullets destabilize after 40 years or so, and the detonator handle gets all rusty. When you mix rust with the destabilized powder, there's a large chance that pneumatic blow-back can cause the sights to explode. Children can be hurt by the ensuing shockwaves.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: John Browning ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:39PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A lot of these gun deaths could be prevented if
> they reduced the muzzle velocity of the bullets by
> increasing the grains of the bullets. Additional
> hammer and firing pin rifling could compensate for
> the loss of feets per second, allowing guns to be
> safer, but just as lethal.

Could you explain just what "hammer and firing pin rifling" is? For
some reason I thought "rifling" was inside the bore of the barrel.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:39PM

Sarcasm Watch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eesh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's an attempt at sarcasm since I made fun of
> the
> > fact he thinks a pistol can backfire simply
> > because it's "old."
>
>
> That's not sarcasm. It's an inside joke.



It's technical. Don't expect everyone (including me) to understand.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:41PM

John Browning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A lot of these gun deaths could be prevented if
> > they reduced the muzzle velocity of the bullets
> by
> > increasing the grains of the bullets.
> Additional
> > hammer and firing pin rifling could compensate
> for
> > the loss of feets per second, allowing guns to
> be
> > safer, but just as lethal.
>
> Could you explain just what "hammer and firing pin
> rifling" is? For
> some reason I thought "rifling" was inside the
> bore of the barrel.

Jesus Christ, Mr. Browning. Go read a Wikipedia article, will you?!

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:41PM

John Browning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A lot of these gun deaths could be prevented if
> > they reduced the muzzle velocity of the bullets
> by
> > increasing the grains of the bullets.
> Additional
> > hammer and firing pin rifling could compensate
> for
> > the loss of feets per second, allowing guns to
> be
> > safer, but just as lethal.
>
> Could you explain just what "hammer and firing pin
> rifling" is? For
> some reason I thought "rifling" was inside the
> bore of the barrel.




You have to play 500 hours of Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto to be on Mephisto's level of firearms knowledge. Sorry.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Inside Joke Watch ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:43PM

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sarcasm Watch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > eesh Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > It's an attempt at sarcasm since I made fun
> of
> > the
> > > fact he thinks a pistol can backfire simply
> > > because it's "old."
> >
> >
> > That's not sarcasm. It's an inside joke.
>
>
> It's technical. Don't expect everyone (including
> me) to understand.


I think "Sarcasm Watch" was making a little inside joke, rather than really looking for sarcasm.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: John Browning ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:47PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Browning Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > MrMephisto Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > A lot of these gun deaths could be prevented
> if
> > > they reduced the muzzle velocity of the
> bullets
> > by
> > > increasing the grains of the bullets.
> > Additional
> > > hammer and firing pin rifling could
> compensate
> > for
> > > the loss of feets per second, allowing guns
> to
> > be
> > > safer, but just as lethal.
> >
> > Could you explain just what "hammer and firing
> pin
> > rifling" is? For
> > some reason I thought "rifling" was inside the
> > bore of the barrel.
>
> Jesus Christ, Mr. Browning. Go read a Wikipedia
> article, will you?!

I think it's you who needs to read a wiki article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:52PM

Don't listen to the naysayers, Mr. Browning. It's not that easy. You need at least 700 hours to get started, and I've logged in about 1,500 hours, supplemented with "Left 4 Dead 2" and the "Halo" series.

If anyone's interested in learning about swords and other melee weapons, I have a stirring dissertation prepared based on my experience playing "The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion" and "Neverwinter Nights 2."

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 05, 2010 05:57PM

John Browning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it's you who needs to read a wiki
> article.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling

*Sigh*

I keep editing that article so it contains actual factual information, and some jackass keeps vandalizing it by talking about "twist rates" and "full bore concepts." I give up.

But trust me, I'm right on this.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: John Browning ()
Date: June 05, 2010 06:05PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bloody blisters Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > MrMephisto Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > > It's technical. I don't expect you to
> > understand.
> >
> >
> > oh ok, carry on then.
>
> Ok, I'll explain. The powder in the bullets
> destabilize after 40 years or so, and the
> detonator handle gets all rusty. When you mix
> rust with the destabilized powder, there's a large
> chance that pneumatic blow-back can cause the
> sights to explode. Children can be hurt by the
> ensuing shockwaves.

"powder in the bullets"? I have never seen a bullet that contained
any kind of powder. A cartridge and it's primer perhaps but never a
bullet. Exploding (or "frangible") rounds may contain powder but
they are not exactly common. (against the law in Virginia and other
places as well) Even if they were legal, I would have no use for them.
There's nothing like some 9mm FMJ's for my P-38. Also would like
to point out that if you were to use a round with too light of a
bullet, that could make the pistol fail to cycle the action for
the next round. Dangerous situation for home defense.

http://www.lcav.org/content/ammunition_regulation.pdf

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 05, 2010 06:08PM

John Browning, don't argue with idiots. You're just going to be dragged down to his level and beaten with experience.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: John Browning ()
Date: June 05, 2010 06:10PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Browning Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think it's you who needs to read a wiki
> > article.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling
>
> *Sigh*
>
> I keep editing that article so it contains actual
> factual information, and some jackass keeps
> vandalizing it by talking about "twist rates" and
> "full bore concepts." I give up.
>
> But trust me, I'm right on this.


I see your sarcasm but maybe Vince can learn the difference between a
bullet and a cartridge.:) (or a muzzle loader from a machine gun):)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: foolio ()
Date: June 05, 2010 06:14PM

In the immortal words of Chris Rock, "Gun control? We need bullet control! I think every bullet should cost 5000 dollars..."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 05, 2010 06:15PM

John Browning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "powder in the bullets"? I have never seen a
> bullet that contained any kind of powder.

This is why I'm trying to educate you, because you seem to be genuinely interested in guns.

> A cartridge and it's primer perhaps but never a
> bullet.

"Cartridge" and "primer?" We're talking about guns here, not Nintendo and paint. It's cool, though.

> Exploding (or "frangible")

Ok, now you're just making up words.

> There's nothing like some 9mm FMJ's for my P-38.

Have you considered using the .45 S&W RPM/PBS rounds bullets (sorry, trying to break that habit, lol)? I think they'd be better for your P-38, but really, who uses those anymore? If you need a reliable shotgun, everyone knows that the PB&J-69 is a superior gun, what with its smooth front-loading action and ionized hammer.

> Also would like to point out that if you were to use a round with
> too light of a bullet, that could make the pistol fail to cycle
> the action for the next round. Dangerous situation for home
> defense.

Lighter bullets make for a lighter gun, which I find gives me a better tactical advantage. In fact, probably the best idea for home defense is to load a .45 caliber pistol with .22 gauge bullets; the gun will fire them at the same .45 caliber velocity, but the smaller bullet decreases wind resistance, making it much more accurate.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 05, 2010 06:18PM

John Browning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see your sarcasm but maybe Vince can learn the
> difference between a
> bullet and a cartridge.:) (or a muzzle loader from
> a machine gun):)

HAH! Vince wouldn't care if guns shot hugs and rainbows; he'd still say they're evil tools of a corrupt Republikan government that seeks to oppress illegal immigrants.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: bloody blisters ()
Date: June 05, 2010 06:39PM

im sorry, if i knew it would snowball like this i wouldnt have said anything at all.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 05, 2010 09:20PM

All Ive ever said is that all the supposed benifits of gun ownership are bullshit. Guns dont protect our freedoms...the rule of law does. Guns do not protect anyone...the world would be a btter place without them..the world would be a better with less of them. Guns kill more people then they save.

I believe the 2nd Amendment was not meant to protect private gun ownership. The original intent was to give states the abiltiy to provie their armed militias in time of need. In other words the 2nd AMendment was designed to stop the Federal Govt from having a reason for a standing Army. True Constitutionalist should object to a standing Army.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2010 02:40PM by Vince(1).

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: June 06, 2010 03:30AM

Progressive Guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can say I'm a dreamer, BUT I"M NOT THE ONLY
> ONE.


we dont think you are a dreamer, we think you're and idiot and let me assure you, we know you arent the only one.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: John Browning ()
Date: June 06, 2010 07:39AM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Browning Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "powder in the bullets"? I have never seen a
> > bullet that contained any kind of powder.
>
> This is why I'm trying to educate you, because you
> seem to be genuinely interested in guns.
>
> > A cartridge and it's primer perhaps but never a
>
> > bullet.
>
> "Cartridge" and "primer?" We're talking about
> guns here, not Nintendo and paint. It's cool,
> though.
>
> > Exploding (or "frangible")
>
> Ok, now you're just making up words.
>
> > There's nothing like some 9mm FMJ's for my
> P-38.
>
> Have you considered using the .45 S&W RPM/PBS
> rounds bullets (sorry, trying to break that habit,
> lol)? I think they'd be better for your P-38, but
> really, who uses those anymore? If you need a
> reliable shotgun, everyone knows that the PB&J-69
> is a superior gun, what with its smooth
> front-loading action and ionized hammer.
>
> > Also would like to point out that if you were to
> use a round with
> > too light of a bullet, that could make the
> pistol fail to cycle
> > the action for the next round. Dangerous
> situation for home
> > defense.
>
> Lighter bullets make for a lighter gun, which I
> find gives me a better tactical advantage. In
> fact, probably the best idea for home defense is
> to load a .45 caliber pistol with .22 gauge
> bullets; the gun will fire them at the same .45
> caliber velocity, but the smaller bullet decreases
> wind resistance, making it much more accurate.


Okay you got me. I didn't realize you were a staff writer for the
Violence Policy Center.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 06, 2010 08:45AM

John...all but a very few on here are gun nuts. Youd think they have sex with them.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: John Browning ()
Date: June 06, 2010 11:52AM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John...all but a very few on here are gun nuts.
> Youd think they have sex with them.

Why do you think I invented the .50 BMG? Best sex in the world!

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 06, 2010 12:42PM

John Browning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do you think I invented the .50 BMG? Best sex
> in the world!

And we all thank you for it.

Seriously, though, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of firearms, but I don't need to to use one safely and effectively. Likewise, I don't need an encyclopedic knowledge about cars to drive one.

I know which ammunition to buy for my two guns, how to clean them, how to fire them accurately, and how to store them safely. Anything past that is just conversation, similar to the ways people can go on and on about cars, comic books, computers, sports statistics, etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 06, 2010 02:07PM

John Browning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Why do you think I invented the .50 BMG? Best sex
> in the world!



And we thank you for it.

Seriously though, I'm no expert on firearms, but when you read through a thread, and some moronic Internet Tough Guy claims a pistol can backfire because it is old and gives advice to a guy claiming light birdshot will cause the same amount of damage at short range as buckshot http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/299538/299666.html#msg-299666, it gets under your skin.

It would be like some idiot spouting off bullshit about Linux or computers in general, certain members here would tear him apart.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: John Browning ()
Date: June 06, 2010 02:33PM

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Browning Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Why do you think I invented the .50 BMG? Best
> sex
> > in the world!
>
>
> And we thank you for it.
>
> Seriously though, I'm no expert on firearms, but
> when you read through a thread, and some moronic
> Internet Tough Guy claims a pistol can backfire
> because it is old and gives advice to a guy
> claiming light birdshot will cause the same amount
> of damage at short range as buckshot
> http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/299
> 538/299666.html#msg-299666, it gets under your
> skin.
>
> It would be like some idiot spouting off bullshit
> about Linux or computers in general, certain
> members here would tear him apart.


Vince took the bait. That's what I was expecting. There may be some
validity to a claim of birdshot causing the same amount of damage
at short range though. If you shoot somebody at 10 feet with a 12 ga.,
(either bird or buck) it could blow their head off with either round
so it might not matter so much. Any further than that and buck rules.
Bird may offer an advantage of not penetrating walls so easily and
offending your neighbors but either way before you pull the trigger
that factor is important.

I've ran across some real "experts" on the net but the most memorable
was a guy who said he could kill a deer at 1 mile with a .410 shotgun
and kept a thread going for days.:) (some people just don't know when
to quit):)

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: June 06, 2010 02:42PM

I took the bait? You sure are a sly and crafty one..I'll have to keep my guard up when commenting on your posts. Boy..do I feel the fool!

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 06, 2010 02:54PM

John Browning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
>
> Vince took the bait. That's what I was expecting.
> There may be some
> validity to a claim of birdshot causing the same
> amount of damage
> at short range though. If you shoot somebody at 10
> feet with a 12 ga.,
> (either bird or buck) it could blow their head off
> with either round
> so it might not matter so much. Any further than
> that and buck rules.
> Bird may offer an advantage of not penetrating
> walls so easily and
> offending your neighbors but either way before you
> pull the trigger
> that factor is important.



Well, that's an argument for another day....

It's hilarious when someone says "any more knowledge about firearms is just encyclopedia bullshit."

It would be like saying, "I know how to use a keyboard, plug in a printer and surf the web. Any more knowledge about computers is for conversation only and is encyclopedia bullshit." Try telling that to a computer programmer making a six figure income.

It's a lame defense, and only makes the bullshitter look even more stupid.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: John Browning ()
Date: June 06, 2010 03:24PM

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Browning Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> >
> > Vince took the bait. That's what I was
> expecting.
> > There may be some
> > validity to a claim of birdshot causing the
> same
> > amount of damage
> > at short range though. If you shoot somebody at
> 10
> > feet with a 12 ga.,
> > (either bird or buck) it could blow their head
> off
> > with either round
> > so it might not matter so much. Any further
> than
> > that and buck rules.
> > Bird may offer an advantage of not penetrating
> > walls so easily and
> > offending your neighbors but either way before
> you
> > pull the trigger
> > that factor is important.
>
>
> Well, that's an argument for another day....
>
> It's hilarious when someone says "any more
> knowledge about firearms is just encyclopedia
> bullshit."
>
> It would be like saying, "I know how to use a
> keyboard, plug in a printer and surf the web. Any
> more knowledge about computers is for conversation
> only and is encyclopedia bullshit." Try telling
> that to a computer programmer making a six figure
> income.
>
> It's a lame defense, and only makes the
> bullshitter look even more stupid.


Okay, we've gotten off topic but I enjoy some of the BS stories. (Like a
former "know-it-all" co-worker who once told a group of serious hunters
and gunners he knew more about firearms than all of us put together but
he had never heard of a ballistics table.):) Perhaps someday the Brits
will give back those guns they took during WWII. I know some of the
owners offspring would really like to have them.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: John Browning ()
Date: June 06, 2010 03:27PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I took the bait? You sure are a sly and crafty
> one..I'll have to keep my guard up when commenting
> on your posts. Boy..do I feel the fool!

You're mere presence on this thread says it all.:)

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: John Browning ()
Date: June 06, 2010 03:28PM

John Browning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I took the bait? You sure are a sly and crafty
> > one..I'll have to keep my guard up when
> commenting
> > on your posts. Boy..do I feel the fool!
>
> You're mere presence on this thread says it all.:)

Edit: Your mere presence on this thread says it all.:)

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: foolio ()
Date: June 06, 2010 03:35PM

If I were a gun nut, I would get my hands on one of these:


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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: John Browning ()
Date: June 06, 2010 04:40PM

foolio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I were a gun nut, I would get my hands on one
> of these:
>
>

The AM-22 could be a lot of fun but very expensive. First you have to buy a
(legal) M-16 including the BATFE license. Price of full-auto M-16:
($12-25K depending on the rifle)

http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns.html

If you opt for the conversion kit
be prepared to spend a lot more money.

http://www.tacticalinc.com/am15-upper-receieverbrfull-auto-capable-only-p-420.html

I don't know what the cyclical fire rate of this gun is but it seems to be
able to eat up a 275 round drum in nothing flat so it's not going to be
cheap to use up all that ammo in such a short period of time. Finding a
place to fire it might be a bit of a chore unless you know someone with
private land and will let you fire it. Most ranges I know of around here
would prohibit such a weapon but I haven't really checked them all.
Also, loading each round into the drum might take a while to fill it so
be prepared to spend quite a bit of time shoving rounds into it before
firing. Still feel like buying one?

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 06, 2010 10:12PM

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, that's an argument for another day....

Yeah, let's not discuss that anymore. I don't like admitting when I'm wrong, either.

> It's hilarious when someone says "any more
> knowledge about firearms is just encyclopedia
> bullshit."

That's not what I said, but yeah, I guess it would be "hilarious."

> It would be like saying, "I know how to use a
> keyboard, plug in a printer and surf the web. "

If all you're doing is printing and surfing the web, then yes, I'd say that's a sufficient level of knowledge.

> It's a lame defense, and only makes the
> bullshitter look even more stupid.

What am I defending? When did I ever claim to be an expert? I'm not in a militia, I'm not a collector, and I'm a civilian. I have two guns for personal and home defense, and little interest in them past that. If my opinions are "getting under your skin," you've got some really thin fucking skin.

Here: You're better than me at everything, and I'll never be as awesome as you. Can you please stop acting like a total cock now?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 06, 2010 10:51PM

John Browning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bird may offer an advantage of not penetrating
> walls so easily and offending your neighbors...

When I was buying my shotgun, I explained my living situation to one of the older employees at the store, and asked his recommendation on ammunition. He said, "Eh. You'll be fine with the light load bird shot. Even if it does go through the walls and hit someone in the next apartment, it's much less likely to kill 'em than a handgun bullet."

When I asked if the light load bird shot would be effective in stopping someone breaking into my apartment, he cocked his eyebrow and said, "Boy, when you're hitting someone with an ounce of lead at that range, it doesn't matter how many pieces it's in."

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 06, 2010 11:02PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eesh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well, that's an argument for another day....
>
> Yeah, let's not discuss that anymore. I don't
> like admitting when I'm wrong, either.

>


I was referring to the birdshot vs. buckshot at short range, in which you claim that birdshot will cause as much damage, it's an argument for another day.


> > It's hilarious when someone says "any more
> > knowledge about firearms is just encyclopedia
> > bullshit."
>
> That's not what I said, but yeah, I guess it would
> be "hilarious."


Retraction: MrMephisto did not use the word "bullshit." For clarification, he was simply claiming anybody more knowledgeable than him in a certain subject just possesses trivial tidbits.


> > It's a lame defense, and only makes the
> > bullshitter look even more stupid.
>
> What am I defending? When did I ever claim to be
> an expert?



You didn't, and your posts aren't pretentious either. However, when someone strolls along and states something that might be past your current level of knowledge, you dismiss it as irrelevant.



> Here: You're better than me at everything, and
> I'll never be as awesome as you.


I think this is why you came/come after me with such a vengeance, because you had this self-revelation. :-)~


> Can you please
> stop acting like a total cock now?


After you...

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 06, 2010 11:13PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Browning Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Bird may offer an advantage of not penetrating
> > walls so easily and offending your neighbors...
>
> When I was buying my shotgun, I explained my
> living situation to one of the older employees at
> the store, and asked his recommendation on
> ammunition. He said, "Eh. You'll be fine with
> the light load bird shot. Even if it does go
> through the walls and hit someone in the next
> apartment, it's much less likely to kill 'em than
> a handgun bullet."
>
> When I asked if the light load bird shot would be
> effective in stopping someone breaking into my
> apartment, he cocked his eyebrow and said, "Boy,
> when you're hitting someone with an ounce of lead
> at that range, it doesn't matter how many pieces
> it's in."



There is an abundance of information on the web about this very topic.

Yes, in an apartment, it is advisable to use birdshot over buckshot or slugs because of safety concerns with the neighbors. However, don't expect it to deliver devastating stopping power just because it is at extremely close range.

**TRIVIAL ENCYCLOPEDIA BULLSHIT BELOW**

Birdshot can cause very painful and violent wounds, but is not likely to reach vital organs. The reason is the mass of each individual shot is not enough to deliver the energy required for lethal penetration.

Just because an employee of a gun store told you something does not make it indisputable truth; it would be like going to Best Buy and basing your computer knowledge on what the Geek Squad member explained to you.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 07, 2010 07:49AM

Whatever.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Meanwhile, In Gun Free England
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: June 07, 2010 08:15AM

Crybaby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whatever.




"Whatever" - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whatever

Used in an argument to admit that you are wrong without admitting it so the argument is over.

Passive-aggressive behavior at its most eloquent.

My favorite:

The most annoying thing that your girlfriend can say.

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