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Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: associated pressings ()
Date: March 14, 2019 12:48PM

http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/40/3084634/3085031.html#msg-3085031

In the late 90's and or early 2000's some pilots began complaining commercial aircraft required too much training to be proficient in - especially certain models that required knowledge to prevent "stalls" on takeoff (which is relevant here). They required mandatory new knowledge of trim control systems (not including auto pilot, or rather a partial auto pilot). A cargo pilot could not just jump into a commercial plane and fly it.

The 737 is one of boeings "Econo Class" aircraft. It is not sold as the most advanced nor as the easiest to operate. 737 is sold as efficient, cost saving, and very very safe when operated properly.

The 737 is an international commercial jet liner - it is not a trivial machine.

http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/40/3084634/3085031.html#msg-3085031

.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: kmb9n ()
Date: March 14, 2019 12:51PM

boeing could throw a couple more $$$ engines on the 737. countries wouldn't buy it, they'd go for a more expensive ABUS (more expensive than 737 w/2 engine).

and even then, if overloaded by a "greedy crew", the 4 engines wouldn't suffice for takeoff.

737 is the best of it's class, in it's price range

------------------------

boeing set the software to do exactly what it does intently. some pilots want the feature disabled (which the maker decided would be a bad idea).

it's all political.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: other boeing "blames" ()
Date: March 14, 2019 01:02PM

Some carriers caused a few FIRES in boeings due to oxygen tanks (needed for higher flying) ... the carriers had refused to maintain the tanks and put flammable cargo close to them - likely knocking into and damaging them. Boeing was blamed though boeing had been clear that cargo should be kept away from the tanks the tanks should be inspected.

The list of "blame boeing" is lengthy. But the flight record remains very good - a matter of "per million flights" or much better. it is also partly a list of "i told you so" and boeing being forced to add more costly dummy features to planes

.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: wxcjh ()
Date: March 14, 2019 01:08PM


Stunning airials! Boeing's 737 MAX on Flying Display

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XEsSRqnOwc


(the 737 max can take off at stiff angles if un-loaded. a fully loaded cargo plane on the other hand is a complicated matter no matter what plane is in discussion - near the limit means near failure in all cases)

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: article makes little sense ()
Date: March 14, 2019 01:08PM

associated pressings Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> especially certain models that required knowledge to prevent
> "stalls" on takeoff (which is relevant here).

Flying any airplane requires knowledge to prevent a stall. It’s a fundamental part of training on every fixed wing aircraft type.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: never stalls on take-off ()
Date: March 14, 2019 01:09PM

74b088dd13688199d8aa68a5867f6a47--paper-

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: ydytd ()
Date: March 14, 2019 01:14PM

an-225_tanks.jpg?itok=KBem6qHU&fc=50,50

taking off carry these is simply going to be a "careful matter"

.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: xhu3e ()
Date: March 14, 2019 01:44PM

Kenya Africa
Runways

Direction Length Surface
. m ft
06/24 4,117 13,507 Asphalt

@ LAX

Direction Length Surface
ft m
6L/24R 8,926 2,721 Concrete
7R/25L 11,095 3,382 Concrete

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_runways

runway length was apparently not a factor. runway condition is unknowable but ostensibly "ok". you never know if that plane had a full take-off run - but it is thought it had a full take-off. the exact speed of which is a question, but it had enough length to get to speed ostensibly.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: 9x9tx ()
Date: March 14, 2019 01:46PM

This is especially true for the critical aircraft – the Boeing 737-900 which requires a landing length of 6,800 feet under wet conditions and a takeoff length of 9,700 feet under maximum takeoff weight.

Reagan Int'l
Direction Length Surface
ft m
1/19 7,169 2,185 Asphalt
15/33 5,204 1,586 Asphalt

(a fully loaded 737 cannot even take off from Wash DC)

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: r4gerwe ()
Date: March 14, 2019 01:48PM

kenya needs a slighly longer runway though ... it's elevation is 5,330 ft, reagan is only 5m. it is said that "higher elevations require longer runways"

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: tple9 ()
Date: March 14, 2019 02:02PM

157 passengers is "allot" weight wise (200 max). ADD to that an unknown amount of cargo in belly (some of which may have been illicit - we don't know)

even if the exact runway speed was known, it's still a question exactly what the weight was. before blaming boeing.

moreso before blaming boeing is the "pilot hadn't read documentation" issue

--------------

again - it's a good chance that lying news is an element in "blaming boeing" and their objective is advertising for a different mfg

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: Rational Human ()
Date: March 14, 2019 02:12PM

This thread, like so many here, reads like one barely-English-speaking lunatic's ongoing conversation with himself.

I will post another thread soon which addresses this topic For any rational English speaking folks.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: d4nc6 ()
Date: March 14, 2019 02:16PM

One doesn't have to guess that the econo line cannot have full passenger and full cargo load at the same time.

(The MAX8 offers a seating of 178-210 max. It has a max payload of 46,040 lb (20,882 kg). 157 passengers weight at least 30,000 lb, leaving not much for cargo (ie mail) after luggage is weighed in)

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: Mr obvious ()
Date: March 14, 2019 03:25PM

d4nc6 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One doesn't have to guess that the econo line
> cannot have full passenger and full cargo load at
> the same time.
>
> (The MAX8 offers a seating of 178-210 max. It has
> a max payload of 46,040 lb (20,882 kg). 157
> passengers weight at least 30,000 lb, leaving not
> much for cargo (ie mail) after luggage is weighed
> in)


Ethiopian don’t weigh much

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: March 14, 2019 05:04PM

Trump ruined the 737 to build a wall in the sky.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: Sparks ()
Date: March 14, 2019 05:21PM

Flying Teslas.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: more engine nonsense ()
Date: March 14, 2019 06:20PM

kmb9n Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> boeing could throw a couple more $$$ engines on
> the 737. countries wouldn't buy it, they'd go for
> a more expensive ABUS (more expensive than 737 w/2
> engine).


If they put more engines on it, then it would no longer be a 737.

The age of the 4-engine passenger aircraft is coming to an end anyway. Airbus announced last year that they're stopping production of the A380 and Boeing is banking on the 787 line as the long haul aircraft of the future.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: ecedg ()
Date: March 14, 2019 10:52PM

ecedg

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: jxkgu ()
Date: March 14, 2019 11:05PM

Mr obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> d4nc6 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Ethiopian don’t weigh much

that fact pained me that i could not justify my number or edit my anonymous post. but there were 22 UN workers and they are typically fat !

i have no idea if the weight includes fuel or not (that ways)

I think i correctly guessed because the fuel weighs 46,750 it is "no including fuel". But the rating doesn't say if the tank is full or not. On a longer flight over the ocean (which it was), more fuel is needed, perhaps more than the amount in the max capacity figure. The max capacity is a highly questionable number stated as "a single figure".

THE END OF THAT STORY IS ... that's part of the flight planning and requires more than a single figure.

As I said: assuming the flight was not overloaded BEFORE THE INVESTIGATION is not a good assumption.

and the photos WE saw - were all taken after a tractor had been spreading the debris flat (after bodies and cargo were somewhat removed)

.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: edyll ()
Date: March 14, 2019 11:07PM

more engine nonsense Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kmb9n Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > boeing could throw a couple more $$$ engines on
> > the 737. countries wouldn't buy it, they'd go
> for
> > a more expensive ABUS (more expensive than 737
> w/2
> > engine).
>
>
> If they put more engines on it, then it would no
> longer be a 737.

that point was already made. perhaps you were not listening.

>
> The age of the 4-engine passenger aircraft is
> coming to an end anyway. Airbus announced last
> year that they're stopping production of the A380
> and Boeing is banking on the 787 line as the long
> haul aircraft of the future.

maybe you didn't see the photo above. multiple engines are "still in".

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: hexug ()
Date: March 14, 2019 11:10PM

the reason for multiple engines is hugely obvious

#1 if 1 engine fails, you are not lopsided compensating

#2 more importantly: if you need a few craft with something like 2x the power and don't want to build a whole new jet manufacturing plant for a just few planes in service: use the same engine multiple times

.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: stupid millenials ()
Date: March 14, 2019 11:11PM

believe building a whole manufacturing plant for a few engines is just as valid as using the same engine 2x

because they expect the engines to fall out of the pockets of the chineses anyhow

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: b747 ()
Date: March 15, 2019 07:15AM

edyll Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > The age of the 4-engine passenger aircraft is
> > coming to an end anyway. Airbus announced last
> > year that they're stopping production of the
> A380
> > and Boeing is banking on the 787 line as the
> long
> > haul aircraft of the future.
>
> maybe you didn't see the photo above. multiple
> engines are "still in".

Sure, they’re still being used. You can see 747’s, A340’s and the A380 landing at IAD regularly.

But the 747 and A340 shut down production long ago and the A380 is discontinuing soon too. And there aren’t any plans to build new 4 engine aircraft. They’re no longer needed for transoceanic routes and aren’t economically viable.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: trivia fact ()
Date: March 15, 2019 11:28AM

Re: Why is it Colleges can't learn to reduce cost like anyone else has? Aren't they supposed to be SMART?

currently the suggested "path" by Bill Clinton government is 6 years of "college" and flight school

Would 2 years of Boeing training be superior (in direct reference to this accident - would the accident have been prevented)? And is government afraid to tell that truth? That run-away cost generic learning isn't all it's cracked up to be?

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: ufgvn ()
Date: March 15, 2019 12:10PM

ufgvn

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: deleted ()
Date: March 15, 2019 12:12PM

[deleted]

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8,9: the problems complained of are old old news from 1990's
Posted by: etpmj ()
Date: March 15, 2019 12:22PM

Rational Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread, like so many here, reads like one
> barely-English-speaking lunatic's ongoing
> conversation with himself.
>
> I will post another thread soon which addresses
> this topic For any rational English speaking
> folks.

drop dead. i cited facts. and i'm right.

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