HomeFairfax General ForumArrest/Ticket SearchWiki newPictures/VideosChatArticlesLinksAbout
Off-Topic :  Fairfax Underground fairfax underground logo
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Corrupt Trump Swamp ()
Date: May 22, 2018 07:40PM

Republicans and Trump heading back to Bush recession and financial government bailouts again.

Hey, as long as bank executives can pocket millions who cares if taxpayers have to bail them out again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/divided-house-passes-major-bank-deregulation-bill-sends-to-trump/2018/05/22/6f3bb562-5dd2-11e8-a4a4-c070ef53f315_story.html?utm_term=.31a318255cdb
Attachments:
TARP.jpg

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Butt Hurt Again ()
Date: May 22, 2018 09:56PM

GOP is so corrupt. Taxpayers get screwed again while bank CEO's buy million dollar mansions, yachts, jets and luxury sports cars.

F'n pisses me off that corrupt people get millions while the average hard working man gets screwed!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Housing Market Collapse ()
Date: May 22, 2018 10:01PM

Let's do it again, it's the republican way.
Attachments:
HousingCrash_c.gif

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Libtards fuck up everything ()
Date: May 22, 2018 10:04PM

Libtards don't understand that this was primarily at the request of what few smaller and local banks that are left. That's because, as usual, as a typical unintended consequence of libtarded fantasy 'thinking' when they regulated all of the banks that put smaller and community banks at a great disadvantage. Which meant that the big banks just gobbled them up and became even bigger. Which also meant that fewer loans and less capital was available to small business who are the primary customers of the smaller banks.


#NiceJobLibtards

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: libertarian here ()
Date: May 22, 2018 10:12PM

so i hate all of you gop and dem faggots but the op is pretty hilarious

who repealed glass steagal again?

even though i don't believe in bank regulation, libs should be mad at slick willy clinton for deregulation

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Loep ()
Date: May 22, 2018 10:34PM

The FCIC placed significant blame for the crisis on deregulation, reporting: "We conclude widespread failures in financial regulation and supervision proved devastating to the stability of the nation’s financial markets. The sentries were not at their posts, in no small part due to the widely accepted faith in the self-correcting nature of the markets and the ability of financial institutions to effectively police themselves. More than 30 years of deregulation and reliance on self-regulation by financial institutions, championed by former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan and others, supported by successive administrations and Congresses, and actively pushed by the powerful financial industry at every turn, had stripped away key safeguards, which could have helped avoid catastrophe. This approach had opened up gaps in oversight of critical areas with trillions of dollars at risk, such as the shadow banking system and over-the-counter derivatives markets. In addition, the government permitted financial firms to pick their preferred regulators in what became a race to the weakest supervisor."[

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: lolz at bank regulation ()
Date: May 22, 2018 10:39PM

when the regulators are just as corrupt as the bankers what's the point of more regulation.

plenty of people were warning about the economic collapse before it happened but the powerful were making tons of money and didn't give a shit.

then a bipartisan decision to bail out the criminals with tax dollars was made......

if you think housing bubble hasn't been re-inflated...well maybe you don't live in Fairfax county...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Feeling xtra swampy tome ()
Date: May 23, 2018 07:58AM

Clearing the swamp = permanent tax breaks for corporations and relaxing the rules put in place to avoid the last financial crash. Bonus Employers allowed to force employees to arbitration (controlled by corporations) instead of going to court.

Feeling xtra swampy to me

Comments Trump idiots???

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: President Trumptard FTW ()
Date: May 23, 2018 08:10AM

Finally we have a freedom-loving President looking out for the true forgotten men of America, hedge fund managers.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: The Big Short ()
Date: May 23, 2018 08:15AM

Loep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The FCIC placed significant blame for the crisis
> on deregulation, reporting: "We conclude
> widespread failures in financial regulation and
> supervision proved devastating to the stability of
> the nation’s financial markets. The sentries
> were not at their posts, in no small part due to
> the widely accepted faith in the self-correcting
> nature of the markets and the ability of financial
> institutions to effectively police themselves.
> More than 30 years of deregulation and reliance on
> self-regulation by financial institutions,
> championed by former Federal Reserve chairman Alan
> Greenspan and others, supported by successive
> administrations and Congresses, and actively
> pushed by the powerful financial industry at every
> turn, had stripped away key safeguards, which
> could have helped avoid catastrophe. This approach
> had opened up gaps in oversight of critical areas
> with trillions of dollars at risk, such as the
> shadow banking system and over-the-counter
> derivatives markets. In addition, the government
> permitted financial firms to pick their preferred
> regulators in what became a race to the weakest
> supervisor."[


Read your own post. It wasn't really the lack of regulations. It was the regulators. All the regulations in the world don't matter if the regulators don't enforce them. Just like all the gun laws in the world don't matter to criminals/crazy people who break those laws anyway. The SEC was (and still is) full of industry hacks who want to work there for 20 years to get a government pension and then go to work for the industry they oversee to make serious money.

The problem the dedicated regulators have is that they sometimes go way beyond the intent or purpose of the regulations they enforce (see EPA the past 15 years), which provides plenty of ammunition to anti-regulation types to hack away at them even more.

No regulations is bad. Too much regulation is bad. Regulations with shitty regulators is bad. Regulations with overzealous regulators is bad. A lot of bad options when it comes to regulating something. Gotta keep working till we get it right.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: prob with libs is ()
Date: May 23, 2018 08:58AM

they don't care about results its all about good intentions

embarassing

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: long time govie ()
Date: May 23, 2018 09:00AM

prob with libs is Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> they don't care about results its all about good
> intentions
>
> embarassing


At work, we call them 'true believers'. They insert the way the think it should be with what the law and rules tell us to do. It's like the libs on the SCOTUS - who make up law because that's what they think it should be, not what congress passed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: now now be fair ()
Date: May 23, 2018 09:28AM

most of these rich white libs have masters degrees and doctorates in women's studies.

they know what's best for us uneducated yokels.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Almost lunch time ()
Date: May 23, 2018 10:23AM

long time govie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> prob with libs is Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > they don't care about results its all about
> good
> > intentions
> >
> > embarassing
>
>
> At work, we call them 'true believers'. They
> insert the way the think it should be with what
> the law and rules tell us to do. It's like the
> libs on the SCOTUS - who make up law because
> that's what they think it should be, not what
> congress passed.


We call them 'justified' in my agency. No matter what they do, they think it's justified (i.e. ends justify the means). Unfortunately, most of my agency is either lazy and doesn't care or are justified crusaders. Those of us who just want to come in and do our jobs within the structure of the rules and regs are the minority where I work. At least 50% are lazy (the 'do our job's part) and another 30% are justified (rules and regs part).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: The GOP Cycle ()
Date: May 23, 2018 10:37AM

How this works for republicans-

1) Companies pay millions to lobbyists.
2) Lobbyists pay off Republican Congressman.
3) Republicans remove regulations and restrictions so companies make huge profits.
4) CEO and top executives make millions to buy yachts, jets and mega mansions.
4) The removed regulations cause devastation.
5) Republicans petition to use taxpayer dollars to subsidize and save the industry, like TARP.
6) A democratic congress and president put the regulation and restrictions back to keep taxpayers safe.

Start at #1 again.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Paul Krugman ()
Date: May 23, 2018 10:44AM

The GOP Cycle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How this works for republicans-
>
> 1) Companies pay millions to lobbyists.
> 2) Lobbyists pay off Republican Congressman.
> 3) Republicans remove regulations and restrictions
> so companies make huge profits.
> 4) CEO and top executives make millions to buy
> yachts, jets and mega mansions.
> 4) The removed regulations cause devastation.
> 5) Republicans petition to use taxpayer dollars to
> subsidize and save the industry, like TARP.
> 6) A democratic congress and president put the
> regulation and restrictions back to keep taxpayers
> safe.
>
> Start at #1 again.



I guess you missed this part where it was Clinton and Greenspan who both deregulated the banks and intentionally created a massive asset bubble in a chase for yield which was at the root of the crash when it finally popped. I thought that was a good idea at the time too.

And btw it was mostly Republicans who were against TARP and the other bailouts.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: May 23, 2018 10:46AM

People keep voting Republican. They want to fucking rot in hell. What can you do.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Plane and Simple ()
Date: May 23, 2018 10:49AM

Paul Krugman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The GOP Cycle Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How this works for republicans-
> >
> > 1) Companies pay millions to lobbyists.
> > 2) Lobbyists pay off Republican Congressman.
> > 3) Republicans remove regulations and
> restrictions
> > so companies make huge profits.
> > 4) CEO and top executives make millions to buy
> > yachts, jets and mega mansions.
> > 4) The removed regulations cause devastation.
> > 5) Republicans petition to use taxpayer dollars
> to
> > subsidize and save the industry, like TARP.
> > 6) A democratic congress and president put the
> > regulation and restrictions back to keep
> taxpayers
> > safe.
> >
> > Start at #1 again.
>
>
>
> I guess you missed this part where it was Clinton
> and Greenspan who both deregulated the banks and
> intentionally created a massive asset bubble in a
> chase for yield which was at the root of the crash
> when it finally popped. I thought that was a good
> idea at the time too.
>
> And btw it was mostly Republicans who were against
> TARP and the other bailouts.

Obama added restrictions to stop banks from making high-risk loans and market stabilized. Banks make risky loans because they can make money and then write off the shit and get government bailouts from Republicans.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Nyet ()
Date: May 23, 2018 10:57AM

The GOP Cycle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How this works for republicans-
>
> 1) Companies pay millions to lobbyists.
> 2) Lobbyists pay off Republican Congressman.
> 3) Republicans remove regulations and restrictions
> so companies make huge profits.
> 4) CEO and top executives make millions to buy
> yachts, jets and mega mansions.
> 4) The removed regulations cause devastation.
> 5) Republicans petition to use taxpayer dollars to
> subsidize and save the industry, like TARP.
> 6) A democratic congress and president put the
> regulation and restrictions back to keep taxpayers
> safe.
>
> Start at #1 again.


At least they have to go through a few steps. Here's how it works for the dems:

1. Give tax money to liberal organizations (e.g. Planned Parenthood, teachers, etc)
2. Liberal organizations give millions in donations to democrats.
3. Go to step 1 again.


Much more simple.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: May 23, 2018 10:59AM

Republicans destroy, that's what they do. They destroy. And the people that vote for them want destruction. You have to vote, you have to call people to vote. We stomped their fucking ass in Virginia doing just that. We destroyed them in Virginia. We ripped out their hearts and shoved it up their asses in Virginia because we voted. That's what you do. That simple, vote. Only a third of this country votes. They're a small shitty cocksucking minority of scum.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Paul Krugman ()
Date: May 23, 2018 11:08AM

Plane and Simple Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paul Krugman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The GOP Cycle Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > How this works for republicans-
> > >
> > > 1) Companies pay millions to lobbyists.
> > > 2) Lobbyists pay off Republican Congressman.
> > > 3) Republicans remove regulations and
> > restrictions
> > > so companies make huge profits.
> > > 4) CEO and top executives make millions to
> buy
> > > yachts, jets and mega mansions.
> > > 4) The removed regulations cause devastation.
> > > 5) Republicans petition to use taxpayer
> dollars
> > to
> > > subsidize and save the industry, like TARP.
> > > 6) A democratic congress and president put
> the
> > > regulation and restrictions back to keep
> > taxpayers
> > > safe.
> > >
> > > Start at #1 again.
> >
> >
> >
> > I guess you missed this part where it was
> Clinton
> > and Greenspan who both deregulated the banks
> and
> > intentionally created a massive asset bubble in
> a
> > chase for yield which was at the root of the
> crash
> > when it finally popped. I thought that was a
> good
> > idea at the time too.
> >
> > And btw it was mostly Republicans who were
> against
> > TARP and the other bailouts.
>
> Obama added restrictions to stop banks from making
> high-risk loans and market stabilized. Banks make
> risky loans because they can make money and then
> write off the shit and get government bailouts
> from Republicans.


Obama didn't do anything. Congress did. And the crash wasn't about making loans at all. It was about the other side of the business - banks acting as investment houses internally and scaling up leverage within those investments. Which is exactly what was very limited before Clinton and Greenspan removed Glass-Steagall walls and created the chase for yield which further encouraged them to do that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Gerry's Awake. Goats Beware. ()
Date: May 23, 2018 11:08AM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Republicans destroy, that's what they do. They
> destroy. And the people that vote for them want
> destruction. You have to vote, you have to call
> people to vote. We stomped their fucking ass in
> Virginia doing just that. We destroyed them in
> Virginia. We ripped out their hearts and shoved
> it up their asses in Virginia because we voted.
> That's what you do. That simple, vote. Only a
> third of this country votes. They're a small
> shitty cocksucking minority of scum.


The GOP ran a moderate middle of the roader, beholden to the chamber of commerce. Not Trump's base. More like Jeb!'s base. Wonder what ever happened to Jeb! Maybe Paul Ryan can go visit him now that he's being run out of town.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: goat fucker must be a woman ()
Date: May 23, 2018 11:23AM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Republicans destroy, that's what they do. They
> destroy. And the people that vote for them want
> destruction. You have to vote, you have to call
> people to vote. We stomped their fucking ass in
> Virginia doing just that. We destroyed them in
> Virginia. We ripped out their hearts and shoved
> it up their asses in Virginia because we voted.
> That's what you do. That simple, vote. Only a
> third of this country votes. They're a small
> shitty cocksucking minority of scum.


fags are not nearly as emotional and pathetic as gerry/ravi the goat rapist...

did we have it all wrong Ger? are you just a typical rich white suburban woman?

would make sense considering years and years of millions of wasted keystrokes

just like a woman

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Hey, Gerry could be.. ()
Date: May 23, 2018 11:28AM

goat fucker must be a woman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Republicans destroy, that's what they do. They
> > destroy. And the people that vote for them
> want
> > destruction. You have to vote, you have to
> call
> > people to vote. We stomped their fucking ass
> in
> > Virginia doing just that. We destroyed them in
> > Virginia. We ripped out their hearts and
> shoved
> > it up their asses in Virginia because we voted.
>
> > That's what you do. That simple, vote. Only a
> > third of this country votes. They're a small
> > shitty cocksucking minority of scum.
>
>
> fags are not nearly as emotional and pathetic as
> gerry/ravi the goat rapist...
>
> did we have it all wrong Ger? are you just a
> typical rich white suburban woman?
>
> would make sense considering years and years of
> millions of wasted keystrokes
>
> just like a woman

...a whiny cunt.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: pathetic rants like this ()
Date: May 23, 2018 11:34AM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Republicans destroy, that's what they do. They
> destroy. And the people that vote for them want
> destruction. You have to vote, you have to call
> people to vote. We stomped their fucking ass in
> Virginia doing just that. We destroyed them in
> Virginia. We ripped out their hearts and shoved
> it up their asses in Virginia because we voted.
> That's what you do. That simple, vote. Only a
> third of this country votes. They're a small
> shitty cocksucking minority of scum.

you know gerry was yelling similar rhetoric while wearing a pussy hat and marching around DC in the name of women or vaginas or just hating Trump.

the crazy thing is that these leftists actually believe their team is noble and altruistic and the other side is evil incarnate.

their is no compromise coming just more division and prob bloodshed.

the more that cnn and their limp wristed supporters attack anyone who doesn't blindly follow their little commie "resistance" the more rational people start to see through their marxist agenda

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Barney Frank ()
Date: May 23, 2018 12:49PM

MSNBC’s Stephanie Ruhle actually praised Republican reforms over bank rules Wednesday.

“I’m just gonna start with, I think this is a really good idea,” she said. “In 2008-2009 I worked in investment banking. I was in the gnarliest part of the business in structured credit derivatives. And banks took way too much risk and we didn’t have enough cash in reserves. But when Dodd-Frank was put into place, it brushed every bank in the same way, and we were subject to regulatory capture.”

“So those massive JP Morgans of the world, they can afford to hold more capital, they can hire a thousand more compliance officers,” she continued, “but if you ran a small- or mid-sized bank that predominantly did loans in the Midwest, you couldn’t possibly afford that. And they were the institutions that got strangled, and even if you don’t care about banking, if you need a loan and you run a small business in all different parts of the country you couldn’t get it because the JP Morgans in the world, they’re not interested in doing business with you.”

“I think this is a great move and the fact that Barney Frank thinks it is, I think, says a lot.”

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Inquisitive One ()
Date: May 23, 2018 02:04PM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Republicans destroy, that's what they do. They
> destroy. And the people that vote for them want
> destruction. You have to vote, you have to call
> people to vote. We stomped their fucking ass in
> Virginia doing just that. We destroyed them in
> Virginia. We ripped out their hearts and shoved
> it up their asses in Virginia because we voted.
> That's what you do. That simple, vote. Only a
> third of this country votes. They're a small
> shitty cocksucking minority of scum.


Move to Venezuela!!! I think that the socialist Maduro has "fixed" Venezuela and you can make it a home that you are proud of.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: May 23, 2018 02:31PM

Inquisitive One Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Republicans destroy, that's what they do. They
> > destroy. And the people that vote for them
> want
> > destruction. You have to vote, you have to
> call
> > people to vote. We stomped their fucking ass
> in
> > Virginia doing just that. We destroyed them in
> > Virginia. We ripped out their hearts and
> shoved
> > it up their asses in Virginia because we voted.
>
> > That's what you do. That simple, vote. Only a
> > third of this country votes. They're a small
> > shitty cocksucking minority of scum.
>
>
> Move to Venezuela!!! I think that the socialist
> Maduro has "fixed" Venezuela and you can make it a
> home that you are proud of.

No, I think I'll stay right here and watch your miserable ass die off powerless.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Get Ready to Bail Out Banks Again- GOP Repeals Junk Loan/Financial Crisis Regulations Bills
Posted by: Barney Frank ()
Date: May 23, 2018 02:34PM

Doh!



Dodd-Frank overhaul doesn't weaken rules put in place to prevent financial crisis: Barney Frank

- The rollback of bank rules doesn't "in any way" weaken regulations for the largest banks, says Dodd-Frank co-author Barney Frank.

- The House passed the measure Tuesday and it now heads to President Trump.

Michelle Fox | @MFoxCNBC
Published 19 Hours Ago Updated 18 Hours Ago

CNBC.com


There is "nothing" in the legislation to overhaul Dodd-Frank that diminishes the regulations intended to curb risk-taking by large banks, Democratic former Rep. Barney Frank told CNBC on Tuesday.

The House passed the measure on Tuesday by a vote of 258 to 159. It now heads to President Donald Trump, who is expected to sign it into law.

"It does not in any way weaken the regulations we put in there for the largest banks or that were there to prevent the kind of crisis we had 10 years ago," said Frank, who co-authored the Dodd-Frank reforms after the financial crisis.

Options: ReplyQuote


Your Name: 
Your Email (Optional): 
Subject: 
Attach a file
  • No file can be larger than 75 MB
  • All files together cannot be larger than 300 MB
  • 30 more file(s) can be attached to this message
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
  *******   **     **  **         ********  **      ** 
 **     **  **     **  **    **      **     **  **  ** 
 **         **     **  **    **      **     **  **  ** 
 ********   **     **  **    **      **     **  **  ** 
 **     **  **     **  *********     **     **  **  ** 
 **     **  **     **        **      **     **  **  ** 
  *******    *******         **      **      ***  ***  
This forum powered by Phorum.