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Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
The Virginian
()
Date: August 20, 2009 07:43PM
Storeowners Act in Self-Defense, but Scars Remain
By KAREEM FAHIM
New York Times, August 21, 2009
An electronics store owner who shot and killed two robbers in a gunfight
regretted none of it but his scars. A pet store owner who did the same and
briefly became a neighborhood hero, closed his shop, moved on to other work and
tried to forget.
A jeweler spent the rest of his life wishing he had never chased after two men
who robbed his Brooklyn store. He told his family that he meant only to wound
them when he pulled the trigger. Insurance, he lamented, would have covered the ]
theft.
For as long as there have been stickup men, there have been shopkeepers who
fought back. Shooting the robbers was in some ways the simplest part, requiring
only the reflexes of a survivor, and a gun — though more than a few store owners
have been prosecuted for using unlicensed guns.
The real pain came in the weeks and years that followed. The proprietors replayed
the violence that had marched into their cramped bodegas, restaurants or jewelry
stores, cursing the career criminals or desperate men who had threatened their
livelihoods — their lives, even — and their sanity.
The deep regret such violence creates was hinted at last week when the owner of a
restaurant supply store in Harlem killed two robbers with a pump-action shotgun.
The owner, Charles Augusto Jr., expressed sympathy for the families of the dead
men, and said he wished they had just left his store.
His emotions echoed those of Peter Giron, the co-owner of a South Bronx dry
cleaning establishment who shot and killed a 17-year-old gunman in 1978. Mr.
Giron collapsed and had to be sedated after the 17-year-old’s father visited his
store and politely asked about the shooting.
A few owners said the shootings in their pasts, even those from decades ago, were
still too painful to talk about. One, who would speak only anonymously,
said, “I’ve been trying to forget about this since it happened.”
Ivan Blume, who wrestled a gun away from a robber and killed both him and his
accomplice at his store, Quality Canines, in Brooklyn, in 2003, would say
only, “It’s a chapter in my life I’d rather close.”
But for Youssouf Drame, who shot and killed two of the four men who tried to rob
his Crown Heights electronics store last November, the pain is mostly physical:
In the gunfight that broke out after he grabbed one of the robbers’ weapons, Mr.
Drame was shot seven times. His left hand is permanently damaged, and scars
remain where his body was pockmarked with bullet holes. But if he had it to do
again, Mr. Drame said, “I’d do worse.”
His is the other face of the shopkeeper’s rage, the one that draws cheers from
crime-weary citizens and business owners. At his store last week, Mr. Drame
watched on the dozens of televisions on display as Mr. Augusto spoke about the
Harlem shooting. “How are you going to rob an old man like that?” Mr. Drame said
in disgust.
He opened his store nine years ago, after stints working as a fishmonger, a
parking attendant and a cleaner of vendors’ carts.
“I worked so hard, and they wanted to take what is mine,” Mr. Drame, 35, said of
the men who tried to hold him up.
The robbery occurred on a Monday night. The men wore masks.
“Africa,” one of the men said to Mr. Drame, who is from Senegal, using his
nickname. “Don’t do nothing stupid.”
Mr. Drame, who has five children, grabbed the man’s gun and started firing. When
it was over, one of the robbers was dead, and another died in the hospital a
short time later. The other two men fled, though one was later arrested.
Mr. Drame spent a few weeks in Kings County Hospital Center, then came back to
work, installing security cameras that cover every approach to his store. If
anything, the shooting gave him new strength, he said: “I didn’t come to America
to die.”
Many of the stores where owners made stands over the years have vanished. Gone is
the delicatessen on Ninth Avenue in Manhattan where, in 1930, Adolph Sargenti
fired two bullets into the temple of a robber in a shabby suit who rifled through
the cash register. So is La Cabana, the restaurant in Bushwick, Brooklyn, where
Rafael Disla fatally shot robbers in two separate episodes in 1991.
Mr. Disla, who was shot during one of the robbery attempts, now lives in a
basement apartment in Cypress Hills and walks with a limp, his landlord said,
adding that Mr. Disla was on vacation in the Dominican Republic.
Leonard Rosenthal owned the Gold Star Jewelry Store in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn,
for almost 20 years until he died of cancer in 2006, said his wife, Marina
Rosenthal, who spoke at her daughter’s New Jersey home this week about the
aftermath of the robbery that took place at the store 15 years ago.
Mr. Rosenthal’s loyal customers called him Lenny. He was originally from Ukraine
and lived in Monmouth County in New Jersey. He owned a gun, which he used on the
afternoon of June 24, 1994, after he buzzed a man who asked to look at a ring
into the store.
The man was armed, and Mr. Rosenthal watched him leave the store with a bagful of
jewelry. But then, in a decision that troubled Mr. Rosenthal for the rest of his
life, he followed the robber as he left.
He shot the robber in the back and side, the police said at the time, and an
accomplice, who was outside, was hit in the chest. The robber was killed. “He
meant to injure the first guy,” said his 20-year-old son, Mark Rosenthal, who sat
with his mother this week. The police told Mr. Rosenthal that he had killed
dangerous, wanted men, but it hardly made him feel better.
In shock, he kept the store closed for a few weeks. “But we had to pay the
mortgage,” Ms. Rosenthal said, so the store reopened. Mr. Rosenthal, 42 at the
time, went gray prematurely and found it hard to talk to his family about the
robbery. His store was robbed again a few years later, and he did not use his
gun, his wife said.
It was only just before his death 12 years later that Mr. Rosenthal spoke to his
son about the shooting, as the two of them drove to the store. “He said he
regretted it,” Mark Rosenthal said. “He said he wished he never left the store.”
Youssouf Drame, at his store in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, where he shot and killed two men who tried
to rob him in November 2008. Mr. Drame showed his stomach, where surgeons removed bullets
that lodged in his body during the gunfight.
Attachments:
By KAREEM FAHIM
New York Times, August 21, 2009
An electronics store owner who shot and killed two robbers in a gunfight
regretted none of it but his scars. A pet store owner who did the same and
briefly became a neighborhood hero, closed his shop, moved on to other work and
tried to forget.
A jeweler spent the rest of his life wishing he had never chased after two men
who robbed his Brooklyn store. He told his family that he meant only to wound
them when he pulled the trigger. Insurance, he lamented, would have covered the ]
theft.
For as long as there have been stickup men, there have been shopkeepers who
fought back. Shooting the robbers was in some ways the simplest part, requiring
only the reflexes of a survivor, and a gun — though more than a few store owners
have been prosecuted for using unlicensed guns.
The real pain came in the weeks and years that followed. The proprietors replayed
the violence that had marched into their cramped bodegas, restaurants or jewelry
stores, cursing the career criminals or desperate men who had threatened their
livelihoods — their lives, even — and their sanity.
The deep regret such violence creates was hinted at last week when the owner of a
restaurant supply store in Harlem killed two robbers with a pump-action shotgun.
The owner, Charles Augusto Jr., expressed sympathy for the families of the dead
men, and said he wished they had just left his store.
His emotions echoed those of Peter Giron, the co-owner of a South Bronx dry
cleaning establishment who shot and killed a 17-year-old gunman in 1978. Mr.
Giron collapsed and had to be sedated after the 17-year-old’s father visited his
store and politely asked about the shooting.
A few owners said the shootings in their pasts, even those from decades ago, were
still too painful to talk about. One, who would speak only anonymously,
said, “I’ve been trying to forget about this since it happened.”
Ivan Blume, who wrestled a gun away from a robber and killed both him and his
accomplice at his store, Quality Canines, in Brooklyn, in 2003, would say
only, “It’s a chapter in my life I’d rather close.”
But for Youssouf Drame, who shot and killed two of the four men who tried to rob
his Crown Heights electronics store last November, the pain is mostly physical:
In the gunfight that broke out after he grabbed one of the robbers’ weapons, Mr.
Drame was shot seven times. His left hand is permanently damaged, and scars
remain where his body was pockmarked with bullet holes. But if he had it to do
again, Mr. Drame said, “I’d do worse.”
His is the other face of the shopkeeper’s rage, the one that draws cheers from
crime-weary citizens and business owners. At his store last week, Mr. Drame
watched on the dozens of televisions on display as Mr. Augusto spoke about the
Harlem shooting. “How are you going to rob an old man like that?” Mr. Drame said
in disgust.
He opened his store nine years ago, after stints working as a fishmonger, a
parking attendant and a cleaner of vendors’ carts.
“I worked so hard, and they wanted to take what is mine,” Mr. Drame, 35, said of
the men who tried to hold him up.
The robbery occurred on a Monday night. The men wore masks.
“Africa,” one of the men said to Mr. Drame, who is from Senegal, using his
nickname. “Don’t do nothing stupid.”
Mr. Drame, who has five children, grabbed the man’s gun and started firing. When
it was over, one of the robbers was dead, and another died in the hospital a
short time later. The other two men fled, though one was later arrested.
Mr. Drame spent a few weeks in Kings County Hospital Center, then came back to
work, installing security cameras that cover every approach to his store. If
anything, the shooting gave him new strength, he said: “I didn’t come to America
to die.”
Many of the stores where owners made stands over the years have vanished. Gone is
the delicatessen on Ninth Avenue in Manhattan where, in 1930, Adolph Sargenti
fired two bullets into the temple of a robber in a shabby suit who rifled through
the cash register. So is La Cabana, the restaurant in Bushwick, Brooklyn, where
Rafael Disla fatally shot robbers in two separate episodes in 1991.
Mr. Disla, who was shot during one of the robbery attempts, now lives in a
basement apartment in Cypress Hills and walks with a limp, his landlord said,
adding that Mr. Disla was on vacation in the Dominican Republic.
Leonard Rosenthal owned the Gold Star Jewelry Store in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn,
for almost 20 years until he died of cancer in 2006, said his wife, Marina
Rosenthal, who spoke at her daughter’s New Jersey home this week about the
aftermath of the robbery that took place at the store 15 years ago.
Mr. Rosenthal’s loyal customers called him Lenny. He was originally from Ukraine
and lived in Monmouth County in New Jersey. He owned a gun, which he used on the
afternoon of June 24, 1994, after he buzzed a man who asked to look at a ring
into the store.
The man was armed, and Mr. Rosenthal watched him leave the store with a bagful of
jewelry. But then, in a decision that troubled Mr. Rosenthal for the rest of his
life, he followed the robber as he left.
He shot the robber in the back and side, the police said at the time, and an
accomplice, who was outside, was hit in the chest. The robber was killed. “He
meant to injure the first guy,” said his 20-year-old son, Mark Rosenthal, who sat
with his mother this week. The police told Mr. Rosenthal that he had killed
dangerous, wanted men, but it hardly made him feel better.
In shock, he kept the store closed for a few weeks. “But we had to pay the
mortgage,” Ms. Rosenthal said, so the store reopened. Mr. Rosenthal, 42 at the
time, went gray prematurely and found it hard to talk to his family about the
robbery. His store was robbed again a few years later, and he did not use his
gun, his wife said.
It was only just before his death 12 years later that Mr. Rosenthal spoke to his
son about the shooting, as the two of them drove to the store. “He said he
regretted it,” Mark Rosenthal said. “He said he wished he never left the store.”
Youssouf Drame, at his store in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, where he shot and killed two men who tried
to rob him in November 2008. Mr. Drame showed his stomach, where surgeons removed bullets
that lodged in his body during the gunfight.
Attachments:
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
Gravis
()
Date: August 20, 2009 07:59PM
he acted out of anger which one would expect. i dont condone his actions but i do understand why he did it and i may have done the same.
thieves have always been looked upon by society as the scum of the earth since there were societies. the unfortunate part about crime is that criminals as bold as these rarely change, not because of prison but because it's how they have come to define themselves and the moral code they have is unlikely to change.
the moral of the story is that crime has serious consequence.
"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."
thieves have always been looked upon by society as the scum of the earth since there were societies. the unfortunate part about crime is that criminals as bold as these rarely change, not because of prison but because it's how they have come to define themselves and the moral code they have is unlikely to change.
the moral of the story is that crime has serious consequence.
"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
Warhawk
()
Date: August 20, 2009 08:17PM
One of my parents' friends back in the 80's got jumped and robbed at his house on Fairfax Station by two men at gunpoint. He managed to get loose and get his gun from the bedroom. He then was able to kill one and paralyze the other. He took a bullet to the head that paralyzed his left side, and it really fucked him up. He had to learn to feed himself, walk, talk, wipe his ass, etc.
Serious consequences indeed.
__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.
Serious consequences indeed.
__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
bloody blisters
()
Date: August 20, 2009 08:22PM
By KAREEM FAHIM
New York Times, August 21, 2009
An electronics store owner who shot and killed two robbers in a gunfight.......
why is tomorrows date on there? did we just get the insider scoop from the new york times?
New York Times, August 21, 2009
An electronics store owner who shot and killed two robbers in a gunfight.......
why is tomorrows date on there? did we just get the insider scoop from the new york times?
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
MrMephisto
()
Date: August 20, 2009 11:03PM
Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'.
--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.
--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
The Virginian
()
Date: August 20, 2009 11:21PM
bloody blisters Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> New York Times, August 21, 2009
> why is tomorrows date on there? did we just get
> the insider scoop from the new york times?
I copied and pasted it from the "print" link, which for some reason (presumably a wormhole) has Aug 21 instead of Aug 20.
-------------------------------------------------------
> New York Times, August 21, 2009
> why is tomorrows date on there? did we just get
> the insider scoop from the new york times?
I copied and pasted it from the "print" link, which for some reason (presumably a wormhole) has Aug 21 instead of Aug 20.
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
Thurston Moore
()
Date: August 20, 2009 11:36PM
I'm sure I would have second thoughts and regrets if I ever defended my life by taking the life of another.
I could wonder about whether or not just giving them the money once they pointed their gun in my face could have spared their lives, and I could replay it all over and over again in my mind, until the day I die.
BUT, I could do all of those things because I defended my life and unfortunately took theirs to protect mine.
It's not like these guys set up shop just to bait criminals into robbing them so they could kill them. They reacted to a situation created by the deceased criminals. The deceased criminals win a darwin award, and they also fail because they put decent human beings in a situation nobody should ever be put in.
The fact that all the people in that article regret or rethink their actions just proves that they are good people forced to do a bad thing.
I could wonder about whether or not just giving them the money once they pointed their gun in my face could have spared their lives, and I could replay it all over and over again in my mind, until the day I die.
BUT, I could do all of those things because I defended my life and unfortunately took theirs to protect mine.
It's not like these guys set up shop just to bait criminals into robbing them so they could kill them. They reacted to a situation created by the deceased criminals. The deceased criminals win a darwin award, and they also fail because they put decent human beings in a situation nobody should ever be put in.
The fact that all the people in that article regret or rethink their actions just proves that they are good people forced to do a bad thing.
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
Harry Tuttle
()
Date: August 21, 2009 01:05AM
Are you saying that these people were meant to die?
Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The deceased criminals win a
> darwin award, and they also fail because they put
> decent human beings in a situation nobody should
> ever be put in.
Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The deceased criminals win a
> darwin award, and they also fail because they put
> decent human beings in a situation nobody should
> ever be put in.
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
Thurston Moore
()
Date: August 21, 2009 02:39AM
Harry Tuttle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you saying that these people were meant to
> die?
>
If someone bum-rushed my bodega with a gun, and demanded money, and I responded with a bullet to the head of the criminal, then sure, I would say that the asswad robbing my bodega was meant to die.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you saying that these people were meant to
> die?
>
If someone bum-rushed my bodega with a gun, and demanded money, and I responded with a bullet to the head of the criminal, then sure, I would say that the asswad robbing my bodega was meant to die.
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
bloody blisters
()
Date: August 21, 2009 02:42AM
wha wha chill out with the bogeda you cant hurt someone with that.
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
Thurston Moore
()
Date: August 21, 2009 03:46AM
bloody blisters Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wha wha chill out with the bogeda you cant hurt
> someone with that.
Why not?
Lots of fools have tried to rob a bodega only to find themselves stumbling out of the joint with a fatal gunshot wound.
It's just plain stupid to rob a bodega or a 7-11. They gots cameras. and in NYC, they gots shotguns.
-------------------------------------------------------
> wha wha chill out with the bogeda you cant hurt
> someone with that.
Why not?
Lots of fools have tried to rob a bodega only to find themselves stumbling out of the joint with a fatal gunshot wound.
It's just plain stupid to rob a bodega or a 7-11. They gots cameras. and in NYC, they gots shotguns.
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
Thurston Moore
()
Date: August 21, 2009 03:47AM
Plus they have the double dutch bus.
Re: Storeowners act in self-defense, but scars remain
Posted by:
bloody blisters
()
Date: August 21, 2009 05:06AM
leave them out of this equation.