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Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: RestonLass ()
Date: August 14, 2009 07:18PM

For everyone who feels America should emulate the Health Care Plan of the UK, Since Australia granted a quadriplegic the right to die, Britain's top court ordered the government to draw up rules for when it will and won't prosecute assisted suicide.

Most Brits who want to "die with dignity" now go to Switzerland where it is legal and the family can not be prosecuted.

USA and Canada next?

==================

Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Aug. 14, 2009 11:24 AM
Associated Press

CANBERRA, Australia - Christian Rossiter has proven his legal right to die and declared himself a champion of other quadriplegics who no longer find life worth living.

An Australian state Supreme Court ruled Friday that a nursing home in the west coast city of Perth must respect the 49-year-old patient's decision to starve to death.

His case adds to international arguments among euthanasia advocates, religious groups, lawyers and ethicists about where the state's duty to preserve life ends.
"I'm happy that I won my right to die," the former stockbroker and mountaineer told reporters from his nursing home bed where he is fed by a tube.

Rossiter claimed an Australian legal precedent, saying now "similar quadriplegics can choose whether they want to live."

The case in Western Australia state sheds light on a gray area in Australian law: patients have a right to refuse lifesaving treatment but helping another to commit suicide is a crime punishable by life in prison.

The nursing home sought a court ruling on its legal culpability before agreeing to Rossiter's repeated requests to stop feeding him.

Comparable cases in other countries have generated heated national debate.

In the United States, comatose Terri Schiavo died in 2005 after her husband prevailed over her family in an eight-year court battle to remove her life supporting feeding tube.

Courts repeatedly blocked the efforts of her parents, Congress, Gov. Jeb Bush and his older brother, President George W. Bush, to resume her feedings.

Last week, Britain's top court ordered the government to draw up rules for when it will and won't prosecute assisted suicide.

Dozens of Britons have killed themselves in the past decade in clinics in Switzerland, where assisted suicide is legal, but no one has been charged under British law with helping them travel there.

Rossiter told his one-day court hearing Friday that he was prepared to fly to Switzerland to take a fatal drug cocktail, but that the Swiss government has been known to hold up cases like his with red tape.

An expert on Australian health law and ethics, Thomas Faunce, a professor at both the Australian National University's law and medical schools, told The Associated Press that Rossiter's case had been judged on its own merits and did not set a clear precedent.

"The judge made a determination that there was nothing that could be done to improve this person's quality of life either in terms of psychiatric treatment or mobility," he added.

Peter O'Meara, state president of the Right to Life Association, said he was considering launching a legal challenge to the ruling.

"We know that from our discussion with quadriplegics who are in a far worse situation than him - they were saying that if he got proper stimulus, he could change his mind," O'Meara said.

"If it does set a precedent, we would be very much concerned," he added.

In court, the judge said Rossiter, who broke his spine in 2004 in a road accident and was left a spastic quadriplegic after a fall last year, clearly had a right to direct - and refuse - his treatment.

Food and fluid "should not be administered against his wishes," but medical staff must fully inform Rossiter of the consequences, Martin said.

After the ruling, Rossiter said he would take further medical advice before refusing food and water.

"There's a possibility I could still be dissuaded," he told reporters.

Rossiter appeared in court Friday in a reclining wheelchair with a tracheotomy tube fitted in his throat to allow him to breathe. He was accompanied by a nurse.

He told the judge he was of sound mind and wanted to die.

Lawyer Linda Black also read a statement by Rossiter to the court.

"I am unable to undertake any basic human functions," his statement said. "I am unable to blow my nose. I'm unable to wipe the tears from my eyes."

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: August 14, 2009 10:55PM

i dislike that people dont have a problem siding with this guy because he has physical injuries but when it comes to people who have depression that isnt a result of being physically disabled, they call those people selfish.

humanity is a big disappointment to me.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:03PM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i dislike that people dont have a problem siding
> with this guy because he has physical injuries but
> when it comes to people who have depression that
> isnt a result of being physically disabled, they
> call those people selfish.
>
> humanity is a big disappointment to me.

I assume this gets back to the question of mentally ill..but otherwise healthy people having the right to assisted suicide. I dont think I ever personally called such people selfish.

But to me access to an assited suicide should be limited to people who are actually experiencing a life threatening event...in the relatively near future..and are experiencing pain or some dehumainizng symptoms. I would hope we are a generous enough society to offer a depressed person other alternatives then an assisted suicide.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2009 11:04PM by Vince(1).

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:05PM

As the country continues its drive to remove religion from the equation, it will become much easier to morally justify assisted suicide for many reasons.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:07PM

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As the country continues its drive to remove
> religion from the equation, it will become much
> easier to morally justify assisted suicide for
> many reasons.

That is a totally ridiculous statement. Atheism does not equate to any less sense of humanity.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2009 11:07PM by Vince(1).

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:07PM

No - where do you believe the original laws and attitudes regarding suicide came from?

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:08PM

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No - where do you believe the original laws and
> attitudes regarding suicide came from?


Where they originally came from is not important. Plus an argument could be made religion not being that original base anyway.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2009 11:09PM by Vince(1).

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:13PM

Nice dodge.

The original issue with suicide is that it was "against God". It is a Sin from which there is no redemption. Committing suicide commits you straight to Hell as I remember it from the Christian perspective. Matter of fact, in recent memory the only religion that has truly glorified suicide are Muslims - but they don't look at it as suicide, they have turned it around and made it into dying for the grace of Allah.

So yes Vince, it is totally relevant and important.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:20PM

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2501/is-suicide-against-the-law

Quote

...
Views on suicide have varied widely, both historically and culturally. Certain Asian societies not only haven't condemned suicide but have sometimes expected or even rewarded it--Japan is the obvious example, with its tradition of hara-kiri, but by no means the only one. Consider the Indian practice of suttee--before the British outlawed it in 1829, an average of 500 widows immolated themselves in their husbands' funeral pyres each year, and were often regarded as nearly divine for doing so.

The ancient Greeks and Romans tended to take a practical view of suicide. Most philosophers accepted that there were circumstances in which it was honorable--for example, to save the lives of others, or as a protest against tyranny. Judaism traditionally forbids self-destruction, but nonetheless many Jews continue to mythologize the mass suicide at Masada, where 960 are believed to have killed themselves rather than surrender to the Romans. Early Christians were even more ambivalent about suicide, as you might expect from followers of a religion founded on martyrdom. Virgins who preferred suicide to dishonor were also celebrated, and at least one, Saint Pelagia, was canonized. Islam alone among these three faiths has a clear scriptural ban on suicide, but as recent events have made plain, that hasn't prevented certain zealots from arriving at permissive interpretations thereof.

The Christian opposition to suicide hardened starting with fifth-century theologian Augustine of Hippo, who argued that offing yourself is never justifiable because it violates God's injunction "thou shalt not kill." Suicides were deemed to have committed a mortal sin and denied Christian burial. Church law influenced civil law, and by the tenth century suicide in England was considered not just a crime but a felony. English common law distinguished a suicide, who was by definition of unsound mind, from a felo-de-se or "evildoer against himself," who had coolly decided to end it all and thereby perpetrated an infamous crime. Such a person forfeited his entire estate to the crown. Furthermore his corpse was subjected to public indignities, such as being dragged through the streets and hung from the gallows, and was finally consigned to "ignominious burial," as the legal scholars put it--the favored method was beneath a crossroads with a stake driven through the body. Other European states established similar laws, apparently hoping they would serve as deterrents. As time went on the punishments lessened. By the 17th century an English suicide forfeited only personal property; his heirs could still get his real estate. But the basic notion of suicide as a crime wasn't swept away in France till the revolution, and in England it took even longer: ignominious burial wasn't abolished until 1823 nor property forfeiture till 1870, and the deed itself remained a crime (albeit only a misdemeanor, and a rarely prosecuted one at that) until 1961. In many jurisdictions you can still be prosecuted for helping someone kill himself, and assisted suicide remains a hotly debated topic not just in the UK but in much of the world.

In the U.S. suicide has never been treated as a crime nor punished by property forfeiture or ignominious burial. (Some states listed it on the books as a felony but imposed no penalty.) Curiously, as of 1963, six states still considered attempted suicide a crime--North and South Dakota, Washington, New Jersey, Nevada, and Oklahoma. Of course they didn't take matters as seriously as the Roman emperor Hadrian, who in 117 AD declared attempted suicide by soldiers a form of desertion and made it--no joke this time--a capital offense.

Although it is still illegal to help someone commit suicide in almost every state.

EDIT: And of course, most insurance policies do not pay out if you commit suicide.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2009 11:23PM by Registered Voter.

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:23PM

You nor anyone else have a way of determining that "against god" was the original basis against suicide or was used merely to justify and reinforce a belief engrained in man.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2009 11:28PM by Vince(1).

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:24PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You nor anyone else have a way of determining that
> "against god" was the original basis or against
> suicide or was used merely to justify and
> reinforce a belief engrained in man.

Yeah, that was a pretty stupid statement on your part...

.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University
Attachments:
ohno2.gif

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:29PM

I dont think I made the original statement declaring the origin of anti-suicide sentiment.

The case could be made that the origins of christianity is based on a suicide tradition.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2009 11:30PM by Vince(1).

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:34PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I dont think I made the original statement
> declaring the origin of anti-suicide sentiment.
>
> The case could be made that the origins of
> christianity is based on a suicide tradition.

Nor did you do anything other than post your opinion on the topic. Did you "prove" anything Vince, other than your ignorance? If you "don't know" yourself, then maybe you should learn to not say anything - that would probably serve you better.

Or when you decide to post on a topic (like your earlier thread about assisted suicide) maybe you should have a better understanding of the topic, and how YOU decide to argue it.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:35PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gravis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > i dislike that people dont have a problem siding
> > with this guy because he has physical injuries but
> > when it comes to people who have depression that
> > isnt a result of being physically disabled, they
> > call those people selfish.
>
> I assume this gets back to the question of
> mentally ill..but otherwise healthy people having
> the right to assisted suicide.


bingo.


> I dont think I
> ever personally called such people selfish.


not everything is about you, vince.


> But to me access to an assited suicide should be
> limited to people who are actually experiencing a
> life threatening event...in the relatively near
> future..and are experiencing pain or some
> dehumainizng symptoms.


you clearly have never experienced depression because it's a pain you could never imagine.


> I would hope we are a
> generous enough society to offer a depressed
> person other alternatives then an assisted
> suicide.


unfortunately, when it comes to mental health few people comprehend what it does to someone. as a result, very little is being done to find treatments. a third of the homeless have a mental illness even though only 1% of the population actually has a mental illness. all the money is going into treating physical illnesses and diseases like AIDS which are completely avoidable. you think a lot of people die in wars? over a million people successfully commit suicide each year. the mentally ill are the most neglected people in society which is ironic because they are the most creative, talented and innovative(really that's just creativity).



Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Registered Voter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As the country continues its drive to remove
> > religion from the equation, it will become much
> > easier to morally justify assisted suicide for
> > many reasons.
>
> That is a totally ridiculous statement. Atheism
> does not equate to any less sense of humanity.


i think it does because atheists (like you) believe humans are nothing more than biological machines. would you have any problem with destroying an android if they were a dime a dozen? machines are only machines.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2009 11:36PM by Gravis.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:35PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The case could be made that the origins of
> christianity is based on a suicide tradition.

Well? Go ahead and make your case. That will be entertaining.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:38PM

Very simple...christ knew of his pending death..did nothing to stop it...the entire process could be described as an assited suicide.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:41PM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Gravis Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > > i dislike that people dont have a problem
> siding
> > > with this guy because he has physical injuries
> but
> > > when it comes to people who have depression
> that
> > > isnt a result of being physically disabled,
> they
> > > call those people selfish.
> >
> > I assume this gets back to the question of
> > mentally ill..but otherwise healthy people
> having
> > the right to assisted suicide.
>
> bingo.
>
>
> > I dont think I
> > ever personally called such people selfish.
>
> not everything is about you, vince.
>
>
> > But to me access to an assited suicide should
> be
> > limited to people who are actually experiencing
> a
> > life threatening event...in the relatively near
> > future..and are experiencing pain or some
> > dehumainizng symptoms.
>
> you clearly have never experienced depression
> because it's a pain you could never imagine.
>
>
> > I would hope we are a
> > generous enough society to offer a depressed
> > person other alternatives then an assisted
> > suicide.
>
> unfortunately, when it comes to mental health few
> people comprehend what it does to someone. as a
> result, very little is being done to find
> treatments. a third of the homeless have a mental
> illness even though only 1% of the population
> actually has a mental illness. all the money is
> going into treating physical illnesses and
> diseases like AIDS which are completely avoidable.
> you think a lot of people die in wars? over a
> million people successfully commit suicide each
> year. the mentally ill are the most neglected
> people in society which is ironic because they are
> the most creative, talented and innovative(really
> that's just creativity).
>
>
>
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Registered Voter Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > As the country continues its drive to remove
> > > religion from the equation, it will become
> much
> > > easier to morally justify assisted suicide
> for
> > > many reasons.
> >
> > That is a totally ridiculous statement.
> Atheism
> > does not equate to any less sense of humanity.
>
> i think it does because atheists (like you)
> believe humans are nothing more than biological
> machines. would you have any problem with
> destroying an android if they were a dime a dozen?
> machines are only machines.


I do not see humans are only "viruses"..."biological machines". These are words that have only come out of your mind..not mine. Stop attributing them to me.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: August 14, 2009 11:58PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not see humans are only
> "viruses"..."biological machines". These are
> words that have only come out of your mind..not
> mine. Stop attributing them to me.


i did not call humans "viruses" but athiests do think humans are biological machines because that's the current scientific theory. if you believe humans are more than biological machines, please tell me what they are.


Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very simple...christ knew of his pending
> death..did nothing to stop it...the entire process
> could be described as an assited suicide.


you have made a very weak argument.

a) it was a sacrifice, one which He was really stressed out about making.
b) He resurrected.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2009 12:03AM by Gravis.

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: August 15, 2009 12:13AM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I do not see humans are only
> > "viruses"..."biological machines". These are
> > words that have only come out of your mind..not
> > mine. Stop attributing them to me.
>
> i did not call humans "viruses" but athiests do
> think humans are biological machines because
> that's the current scientific theory. if you
> believe humans are more than biological machines,
> please tell me what they are.
>
>
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Very simple...christ knew of his pending
> > death..did nothing to stop it...the entire
> process
> > could be described as an assited suicide.
>
> you have made a very weak argument.
>
> a) it was a sacrifice, one which He was really
> stressed out about making.
> b) He resurrected.


If you want to believe in the fairy tale..go right ahead. He was self destructive and probably suffering from depression..in those days they accomodated the death wish of depressed people.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: August 15, 2009 12:15AM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I do not see humans are only
> "viruses"..."biological machines". These are
> words that have only come out of your mind..not
> mine. Stop attributing them to me.

You made a statement Vince, I merely asked a question. Should we, like Agent Smith in the Matrix, merely assume Humans are just a virus? That question was born out of a culmination of many of your statements that pointed to humans being an accidental combination of fluids and amino acids, along with strands of RNA/DNA and other materials that somehow combined into a being with purpose. Especially if you don't believe there was any influence to the creation of the universe. Like - it (the universe) just is, and we (humans) just are, and that is all there is to it. Random mutations of genetic material over time, in a grand dance of evolution - the ultimate culmination of your argument, no?

You dodged the question by mounting an attack on me as I remember it.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: August 15, 2009 12:18AM

Here's what I said...if you dont like it...tough.

Re: Atheist are Happy
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: August 09, 2009 11:28PM


You have a way of putting things in a very negative way. No, I do not believe we are an accident of DNA mutation. We are the most highly developed form of life. Our development is based upon a trial and error process where the weaker permutations develop into a better more adaptable species...or fall out of the process..no accident...a process. A god or deity is not necessary in this process.

As far as viruses go....almost living isnt living. I have often described viruses as the truly living dead. Not living...but having some...not all the charaterisitcs of life. If you accept that viruses are living then you believe scientists have created life from non-living materiel...that hasnt happened..at least yet.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2009 12:23AM by Vince(1).

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Registered Voter ()
Date: August 15, 2009 12:57AM

> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If something nudged the universe toward
> > creation...it was not an entity..thus no deity.
>
> If we are an "accident", or a "freak of nature" -
> then what is our purpose? Are we, as Agent Smith
> postulated in The Matrix, just a virus?

That was the original point of discussion and my question. You finally replied to the question many posts later.

So, if you don't believe we are an accident of DNA mutation... yet we are the most highly developed form of life... then somehow evolution has a purpose?

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Hunky ()
Date: August 15, 2009 10:28AM

Didn't we do this terry shavo thing a while back. They should just use our example of how to handle things!

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: speeeling lesson ()
Date: August 15, 2009 10:42AM

I believe you spelled "Shiavo" wrong. And no, we didn't handle that situation very well. It was emabarassing for our country.

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Re: Australian quadriplegic man granted right to die
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: August 15, 2009 01:24PM

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Vince(1) Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > If something nudged the universe toward
> > > creation...it was not an entity..thus no
> deity.
> >
> > If we are an "accident", or a "freak of nature"
> -
> > then what is our purpose? Are we, as Agent
> Smith
> > postulated in The Matrix, just a virus?
>
> That was the original point of discussion and my
> question. You finally replied to the question many
> posts later.
>
> So, if you don't believe we are an accident of DNA
> mutation... yet we are the most highly developed
> form of life... then somehow evolution has a
> purpose?


Not exactly...evolution is merely a process...with no "purpose" other then to improve the species.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

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