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Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Date: April 30, 2009 12:01AM

So a memo secured by the ACLU shows that an FBI agent in Iraq referred to an Executive Order issued by President George W. Bush in 2004 regarding the treatment of Iraqi Prisoners at Abu Ghraib. In the Executive Order, it appears that soldiers were given permission to put hoods on prisoners and use military dogs to torment the prisoners into providing information.

Were these activities a crime? You tell me...

Between May 2004 and September 2005, seven soldiers were convicted in courts martial, sentenced to federal prison, and dishonorably discharged from service. Two soldiers, Specialist Charles Graner, and his former fiancée, Specialist Lynndie England, were sentenced to ten years and three years in prison, respectively, in trials ending on January 14, 2005 and September 26, 2005.

More details about the Executive Order...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse#Executive_Order



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2009 12:03AM by WashingTone Locian.

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Furfur ()
Date: April 30, 2009 12:11AM

I was in Wiesbaden when this shit went down. (Not a good time to be an American in Europe.)

Did the soldiers go over the line at Abu Gharib, yes. But they were scapegoats, the senior officers that were giving orders and had responsibility over the prison only faced administrative penalties whereas the soldiers got dishonorable discharges and jail.

Also, the civilian interrogators that were involved also got off scot free compared to the junior enlisted soldiers.

The only reason charges were brought up in the first place is because of the international condemnation.

I think a lot worse goes on at the CIA black sites than smearing shit on Iraqis and making them pose in naked pyramids.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2009 12:42AM by Furfur.

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: April 30, 2009 06:05AM

there are a varying degrees to which people define torture. these are what i could think in descending order of pain. these arent exact as torture is not as black and white as some people claim.

physical pain:
  • physical mutilation - cutting off fingers
  • physical and permanent damage to the body - anything that scars (bone fractures and breaks leave scaring)
  • physical and temporary damage to the body - bruising
  • momentary pain causing no damage to the body - making someone stand for hours

psychological pain:
  • severe permanent effects - going to need to be institutionalized afterwards
  • permanent effects - fearing all dogs
  • temporary distress - fear of a specific impending event
  • momentary distress - fear of immediate death

to my knowledge, at most, we use the second lowest of physical pain and the second highest psychological pain. the military has learned over time how to "break" a person in training our own soldiers, so this really is just kicking it up a notch.

i think waterboarding per se counts as being on the lowest of both physical and psychological pain.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Date: April 30, 2009 06:33AM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> there are a varying degrees to which people define
> torture. these are what i could think in
> descending order of pain. these arent exact as
> torture is not as black and white as some people
> claim.



abu-ghraib-torture-7152441222188360.jpg

So you don't believe that doing shit like this....making Iraqis think they are going to be electrocuted....in Saddam's most feared prison, is torture?

Read the memo. Bush authorized this shit. This isn't just people on the ground going overboard. There is now a paper trail going back to Bush saying he authorized this shit. Cheney is on the record admitting it. People went to prison for 10 years for this. Why are lowly PFCs in jail for 10 years and yet nothing is being done to those who authorized this?

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: April 30, 2009 06:38AM

WashingTone Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So you don't believe that doing shit like
> this....making Iraqis think they are going to be
> electrocuted....in Saddam's most feared prison, is
> torture?


read my post again. at no point did i say my opinion on any of this.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: April 30, 2009 07:15AM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WashingTone Locian Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So you don't believe that doing shit like
> > this....making Iraqis think they are going to
> be
> > electrocuted....in Saddam's most feared prison,
> is
> > torture?
>
> read my post again. at no point did i say my
> opinion on any of this.


You hardly ever do....thats what makes you in addition to everything else...a coward.

When you decide to start voting you should become a republikan politician...they need scumbags like you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2009 07:22AM by Vince(1).

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: April 30, 2009 07:19AM

Furfur Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> Did the soldiers go over the line at Abu Gharib,
> yes. But they were scapegoats, the senior officers
> that were giving orders and had responsibility
> over the prison only faced administrative
> penalties whereas the soldiers got dishonorable
> discharges and jail.
>
You are 100% correct when you describe them as scapegoats...scapegoats by no one other then the President of the US....his Sect of Defense..all these military loving pricks.
> >
> The only reason charges were brought up in the
> first place is because of the international
> condemnation.

That's quite a statement...thank god for the condemnation!

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Date: April 30, 2009 09:38AM

I'm just waiting for the documents to come out that show the water-boarded guys at GITMO confirmed a link between Saddam and Al Qaeda and that there were WMD in Iraq. That would blow up Cheney's bullshit argument about "torture works."

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: April 30, 2009 11:20AM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gravis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > read my post again. at no point did i say my
> > opinion on any of this.
>
> You hardly ever do....thats what makes you in
> addition to everything else...a coward.


the correct word you are looking for is impartial. i know you have never heard of it but i think it's about time you crack open a dictionary... no, not a diccionario, a dictionary... and learn some new words and their spellings.


file.php?40,file=3517

kitty here, thinks you make the funniest posts.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: April 30, 2009 11:59AM

no...the word is not impartial...90% when you make a comment they are personal attacks which definately are designed to intimidate someone who is expressing an opinion that you disagree with but that you lack the courage to say so directly...with a rationale.

Coward is the word.

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: April 30, 2009 12:47PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> no...the word is not impartial...90% when you make
> a comment they are personal attacks which
> definately are designed to intimidate someone who
> is expressing an opinion that you disagree with
> but that you lack the courage to say so
> directly...with a rationale.


oh please. if anyone here is making personal attacks, it's you. check the previous threads, you have made entire threads just to insult me. feel free to post some links to said 90% of my comments.

when i want to discuss a point i do but i dont always enough about the issue to debate it and i certainly have no need for validation from strangers on the internet.

as for you, you are hellbent on attacking me in any and every way you can. im not the only one who thinks you have become far too emotionally invested in this site.

file.php?40,file=3512
"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: April 30, 2009 04:41PM

Me...attack you? Well..Im glad you noticed. I guess you deny deleting comments Ive made on here...and I admit your comments in general have been a kinder and gentler...and as you have become kindler and gentler...I have backed off also.
I havent started a Gravis hate thread since the time I thought you were infecting viruses on some of the threads...I think it was the frito song that generated that one.

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 01, 2009 03:43AM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I admit your comments in general have
> been a kinder and gentler...and as you have become
> kindler and gentler...I have backed off also.


no, no you havent.


> I havent started a Gravis hate thread since the
> time I thought you were infecting viruses on some
> of the threads...


a) i do not infect people's computers with viruses.
b)
Quote
orly?
file.php?40,file=6672




> I think it was the frito song that generated that one.

wtf are you talking about, you old coot?!

file.php?40,file=4766
"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Kenny_Powers ()
Date: May 01, 2009 05:21AM

Furfur Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> involved also got off scotch free>


jesus christ... really dude?

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: May 01, 2009 09:27AM

Well..I see no admitance of guilt about deleting messages....so I stand by my claim that Gravis's mom wouldve used the morning after pill if she had it available....and that he is a coward.

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Date: May 01, 2009 09:29AM

Kenny_Powers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Furfur Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > involved also got off scotch free>
>
>
> jesus christ... really dude?


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scot-free

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 01, 2009 09:35AM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well..I see no admitance of guilt about deleting
> messages....so I stand by my claim [...]


it doesnt matter, you already confessed that you are wrong.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: May 01, 2009 03:55PM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well..I see no admitance of guilt about
> deleting
> > messages....so I stand by my claim [...]
>
> it doesnt matter, you already confessed that you
> are wrong.

A coward and a liar to the end.

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Re: Is "Enhanced Interrogation" a Crime?
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 01, 2009 05:49PM

file.php?40,file=4305
"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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