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Fairfax Underground
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Rod
()
Date: January 16, 2009 06:10AM
I have a dream that groups everywhere will begin to flesh out the New Testament reality that the church is a living organism and not an institutional organization.
I have a dream that multitudes of God's people will no longer tolerate those man-made systems that have put them in religious bondage and under a pile of guilt, duty, condemnation, making them slaves to authoritarian systems and leaders.
This group wasn't a Bible study, a prayer group, a healing/soaking prayer session, or a worship service.
Please keep in mind that when I use the term "institutional church" I am not speaking about God's people. I'm speaking about a system. The "institutional church" is a system-a way of doing "church." It's not the people who populate it. This distinction is important.
I will be referring to those churches which people are familiar with as "institutional churches." I could have just as easy called them "establishment churches,"
"basilica churches," "traditional churches," "organized churches," "clergy-dominated churches," "contemporary churches," "audience churches," "spectator churches," auditorium churches,""inherited churches," "legacy churches," or "program based churches."
I was no longer satisfied with watching a performance. In this organic meeting, I began to want to share with my brothers and sisters what I had seen of the Lord. Instead of being passive I now thought it was easy to function and contribute. Every one of our meetings was free to be different. sometimes we sang for hours. Sometimes the believers were bursting at the seams to share what Jesus had done in their lives that week. Sometimes we revered the Lord's awesomeness in silence. No one had to tell us to do these things. The Spirit was moving in these ways and they just spontaneously happened. We often ate together as one family. Sometimes we shared scriptures with each other. Other times we enacted scenes scenes and stories from the Bible that shed light on Christ.
The Organic church focuses on relationships with God and brethren. The institutional Church paradigm is sustained by a clergy system where as the Organic Church paridygn knows nothing of a clergy system.
The institutional church paradigm seeks to energize the laity the organic church paradigm doesn't recognize a separate class called laity.
The institutional church renders the bulk of it's congregant passive in the pews where as the the organic church paradyne allows and encourages all Christians to engage in whatever ministry God has called them
The institutional church limits many functions to the ordained the organic church paradigm makes all members functioning priests
The institutional church paradigm associates church with a building a denomination or a religious service while the organic church paradigm affirms that many people do not GO to church; affirms that they are the church.
The institutional church paradigm builds PROGRAMS to fuel the church; treats people as cogs in the machine where as the organic church paradigm builds PEOPLE together in Christ to provide momentum for the church
The Institutional church paradigm encourages believers to participate institutionally and hierarchically where as the organic church paradigm invites believers to participate relationally and spiritually.
- from Reimaging the Church by Frank Viola
I have a dream that multitudes of God's people will no longer tolerate those man-made systems that have put them in religious bondage and under a pile of guilt, duty, condemnation, making them slaves to authoritarian systems and leaders.
This group wasn't a Bible study, a prayer group, a healing/soaking prayer session, or a worship service.
Please keep in mind that when I use the term "institutional church" I am not speaking about God's people. I'm speaking about a system. The "institutional church" is a system-a way of doing "church." It's not the people who populate it. This distinction is important.
I will be referring to those churches which people are familiar with as "institutional churches." I could have just as easy called them "establishment churches,"
"basilica churches," "traditional churches," "organized churches," "clergy-dominated churches," "contemporary churches," "audience churches," "spectator churches," auditorium churches,""inherited churches," "legacy churches," or "program based churches."
I was no longer satisfied with watching a performance. In this organic meeting, I began to want to share with my brothers and sisters what I had seen of the Lord. Instead of being passive I now thought it was easy to function and contribute. Every one of our meetings was free to be different. sometimes we sang for hours. Sometimes the believers were bursting at the seams to share what Jesus had done in their lives that week. Sometimes we revered the Lord's awesomeness in silence. No one had to tell us to do these things. The Spirit was moving in these ways and they just spontaneously happened. We often ate together as one family. Sometimes we shared scriptures with each other. Other times we enacted scenes scenes and stories from the Bible that shed light on Christ.
The Organic church focuses on relationships with God and brethren. The institutional Church paradigm is sustained by a clergy system where as the Organic Church paridygn knows nothing of a clergy system.
The institutional church paradigm seeks to energize the laity the organic church paradigm doesn't recognize a separate class called laity.
The institutional church renders the bulk of it's congregant passive in the pews where as the the organic church paradyne allows and encourages all Christians to engage in whatever ministry God has called them
The institutional church limits many functions to the ordained the organic church paradigm makes all members functioning priests
The institutional church paradigm associates church with a building a denomination or a religious service while the organic church paradigm affirms that many people do not GO to church; affirms that they are the church.
The institutional church paradigm builds PROGRAMS to fuel the church; treats people as cogs in the machine where as the organic church paradigm builds PEOPLE together in Christ to provide momentum for the church
The Institutional church paradigm encourages believers to participate institutionally and hierarchically where as the organic church paradigm invites believers to participate relationally and spiritually.
- from Reimaging the Church by Frank Viola
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Vince(1)
()
Date: January 16, 2009 06:39AM
ok..so what?
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Rod
()
Date: January 16, 2009 08:24AM
Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok..so what?
The institutional church has people bored out of thier minds sitting in pews listening to sermons. Pews and sermons come Volay proves from non Christian sources. Most of the abuses of the church come from the institution of the church.
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok..so what?
The institutional church has people bored out of thier minds sitting in pews listening to sermons. Pews and sermons come Volay proves from non Christian sources. Most of the abuses of the church come from the institution of the church.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Rod
()
Date: January 16, 2009 08:41AM
Viola
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Yahweh
()
Date: January 16, 2009 09:08AM
Voltaire-
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him."
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him."
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
WashingTone Locian
()
Date: January 16, 2009 09:23AM
Rod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a dream that groups everywhere will begin
> to flesh out the New Testament reality......
I have a dream that you will shut the fuck up.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a dream that groups everywhere will begin
> to flesh out the New Testament reality......
I have a dream that you will shut the fuck up.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Numbers
()
Date: January 16, 2009 09:38AM
Imagine no religion, it easy if you try.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
TheMeeper
()
Date: January 16, 2009 09:43AM
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
WashingTone Locian
()
Date: January 16, 2009 09:48AM
TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the
> rich.
This may be true.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the
> rich.
This may be true.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
WashingTone Locian
()
Date: January 16, 2009 09:53AM
I have not problem with religious belief. I do think it is a waste of time, though, to debate the nature of God or the Church. That's because all of Christianity hinges on the assumption that the Bible is inerrant. Well, we know it is full of errors. It is full of errors in logic. It is full of inconsistencies. And, most of all, we know from the paper trail that it has been changed significantly over the years to mean different things.
So, to Rod, don't waste your time. It doesn't make any difference.
So, to Rod, don't waste your time. It doesn't make any difference.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Rod
()
Date: January 16, 2009 11:46AM
WashingTone Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have not problem with religious belief. I do
> think it is a waste of time, though, to debate the
> nature of God or the Church. That's because all of
> Christianity hinges on the assumption that the
> Bible is inerrant. Well, we know it is full of
> errors. It is full of errors in logic. It is full
> of inconsistencies. And, most of all, we know from
> the paper trail that it has been changed
> significantly over the years to mean different
> things.
There is a term for this Biblical Inconsistency is called "interracy" or something. AND There's a lot of scholarly work on it. It's more then I can get to in a email though. Many people do assume things quickly though. It's as if they say, "Inconsistency, yup, throw it all out!"
There is though a speritual dimension to Christianity.
>
> So, to Rod, don't waste your time. It doesn't make
> any difference.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have not problem with religious belief. I do
> think it is a waste of time, though, to debate the
> nature of God or the Church. That's because all of
> Christianity hinges on the assumption that the
> Bible is inerrant. Well, we know it is full of
> errors. It is full of errors in logic. It is full
> of inconsistencies. And, most of all, we know from
> the paper trail that it has been changed
> significantly over the years to mean different
> things.
There is a term for this Biblical Inconsistency is called "interracy" or something. AND There's a lot of scholarly work on it. It's more then I can get to in a email though. Many people do assume things quickly though. It's as if they say, "Inconsistency, yup, throw it all out!"
There is though a speritual dimension to Christianity.
>
> So, to Rod, don't waste your time. It doesn't make
> any difference.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
WashingTone Locian
()
Date: January 16, 2009 12:05PM
Rod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> There is a term for this Biblical Inconsistency is
> called "interracy" or something. AND There's a lot
> of scholarly work on it. It's more then I can get
> to in a email though. Many people do assume things
> quickly though. It's as if they say,
> "Inconsistency, yup, throw it all out!"
>
> There is though a speritual dimension to
> Christianity.
> >
> > So, to Rod, don't waste your time. It doesn't
> make
> > any difference.
Read "Misquoting Jesus." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misquoting_Jesus
Mr. Ehrman explains how he went from being Born Again to agnostic after spending decades researching the origin of the Bible. He goes into detail about how he struggled to maintain his faith but finally realized the Bible simply is not inerrant and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> There is a term for this Biblical Inconsistency is
> called "interracy" or something. AND There's a lot
> of scholarly work on it. It's more then I can get
> to in a email though. Many people do assume things
> quickly though. It's as if they say,
> "Inconsistency, yup, throw it all out!"
>
> There is though a speritual dimension to
> Christianity.
> >
> > So, to Rod, don't waste your time. It doesn't
> make
> > any difference.
Read "Misquoting Jesus." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misquoting_Jesus
Mr. Ehrman explains how he went from being Born Again to agnostic after spending decades researching the origin of the Bible. He goes into detail about how he struggled to maintain his faith but finally realized the Bible simply is not inerrant and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Yahweh
()
Date: January 16, 2009 12:25PM
Great site to kill some time, and possibly your faith:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
I have spent a great deal of my life searching for truth behind religion, and I have yet to find it. Religion tends to harden hearts and enslave minds, but it does keep people honest for fear of eternal damnation. I have givin up this arguement because the majority of the world relies so heavily upon it. If there was no concept of religion; what would keep humanity in line?
"Why can't we just be good, for goodness sake?"
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
I have spent a great deal of my life searching for truth behind religion, and I have yet to find it. Religion tends to harden hearts and enslave minds, but it does keep people honest for fear of eternal damnation. I have givin up this arguement because the majority of the world relies so heavily upon it. If there was no concept of religion; what would keep humanity in line?
"Why can't we just be good, for goodness sake?"
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
WashingTone Locian
()
Date: January 16, 2009 01:30PM
I'm not going to bash religion for causing wars and misery, etc. People cause that shit. They may use religion or nationalism or borders or language or the color of someone's skin or some perceived slight from generations ago to do it, so I'm not just going to blame religion specifically for it.
My problem with religion is the total lack of logic involved with religious dogma.
God gave his only son for the world, but has no problem shooting Hurricane Katrina into New Orleans and killing old ladies who went to Church every Sunday of their lives, while gang-bangers loot the streets. What is the explanation for this? God works in mysterious ways.
No. No, he doesn't. He doesn't work at all.
As Forrest Gump said, "Shit Happens." There is no God involved with it at all.
My problem with religion is the total lack of logic involved with religious dogma.
God gave his only son for the world, but has no problem shooting Hurricane Katrina into New Orleans and killing old ladies who went to Church every Sunday of their lives, while gang-bangers loot the streets. What is the explanation for this? God works in mysterious ways.
No. No, he doesn't. He doesn't work at all.
As Forrest Gump said, "Shit Happens." There is no God involved with it at all.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Rod
()
Date: January 16, 2009 02:21PM
That's what the Bible says! The rain falls on the just and unjust.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
WashingTone Locian
()
Date: January 16, 2009 02:23PM
Rod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's what the Bible says! The rain falls on the
> just and unjust.
Then why bother praying for miracles?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2009 02:23PM by WashingTone Locian.
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's what the Bible says! The rain falls on the
> just and unjust.
Then why bother praying for miracles?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2009 02:23PM by WashingTone Locian.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Rod
()
Date: January 16, 2009 02:46PM
Oh there's plenty of people that believe that God has performed miracles, answered prayers. Answered prayer is not the same thing as gang bangers or the course of a hurricane. Once everything was peaceful and God had set up a perfect place where every thing was peaceful. Things are not peaceful because God is letting man have his way. God gives man free moral agency which most want.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
MrMephisto
()
Date: January 16, 2009 02:50PM
So God makes us flawed, steps back to watch what we do, then punishes us when the flaw manifests itself?
God is either an idiot or an asshole.
God is either an idiot or an asshole.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
WashingTone Locian
()
Date: January 16, 2009 02:51PM
Rod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh there's plenty of people that believe that God
> has performed miracles, answered prayers.
Why does God answer some prayers and not others? What makes one prayer more worthy of being answered than others?
> Answered
> prayer is not the same thing as gang bangers or
> the course of a hurricane. Once everything was
> peaceful and God had set up a perfect place where
> every thing was peaceful. Things are not peaceful
> because God is letting man have his way. God gives
> man free moral agency which most want.
Let me get this straight. God gives man free will to make mistakes. Why, then, did God flood the world? Take out Sodom and Gomorrah?
God either believes in free will or he doesn't.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh there's plenty of people that believe that God
> has performed miracles, answered prayers.
Why does God answer some prayers and not others? What makes one prayer more worthy of being answered than others?
> Answered
> prayer is not the same thing as gang bangers or
> the course of a hurricane. Once everything was
> peaceful and God had set up a perfect place where
> every thing was peaceful. Things are not peaceful
> because God is letting man have his way. God gives
> man free moral agency which most want.
Let me get this straight. God gives man free will to make mistakes. Why, then, did God flood the world? Take out Sodom and Gomorrah?
God either believes in free will or he doesn't.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Rod
()
Date: January 16, 2009 03:57PM
Man represented by Adam chose to do what he wanted. The outcry against Sodom and gomorah was so grevious and thier sin so great. The Lord sees how great was man's wickedness on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of man's heart was only evil.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
WashingTone Locian
()
Date: January 16, 2009 04:00PM
Rod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Man represented by Adam chose to do what he
> wanted. The outcry against Sodom and gomorah was
> so grevious and thier sin so great. The Lord sees
> how great was man's wickedness on the earth and
> that every inclination of the thoughts of man's
> heart was only evil.
So God willingly kills good and evil people, correct?
-------------------------------------------------------
> Man represented by Adam chose to do what he
> wanted. The outcry against Sodom and gomorah was
> so grevious and thier sin so great. The Lord sees
> how great was man's wickedness on the earth and
> that every inclination of the thoughts of man's
> heart was only evil.
So God willingly kills good and evil people, correct?
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Numbers
()
Date: January 16, 2009 04:16PM
Did God ever help Joe Gibbs when he would kneel and pray that the kicker makes the field goal?
If so, why?
Did he like Joe Gibbs or just hate the other teams?
If so, why?
Did he like Joe Gibbs or just hate the other teams?
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
WashingTone Locian
()
Date: January 16, 2009 04:53PM
Numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did God ever help Joe Gibbs when he would kneel
> and pray that the kicker makes the field goal?
> If so, why?
> Did he like Joe Gibbs or just hate the other
> teams?
I have a feeling God loves the AFC this year.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did God ever help Joe Gibbs when he would kneel
> and pray that the kicker makes the field goal?
> If so, why?
> Did he like Joe Gibbs or just hate the other
> teams?
I have a feeling God loves the AFC this year.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Rod
()
Date: January 16, 2009 04:54PM
WashingTone Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rod Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Man represented by Adam chose to do what he
> > wanted. The outcry against Sodom and gomorah
> was
> > so grevious and thier sin so great. The Lord
> sees
> > how great was man's wickedness on the earth and
> > that every inclination of the thoughts of man's
> > heart was only evil.
>
> So God willingly kills good and evil people,
> correct?
Why do I feel like I'm being led on?
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rod Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Man represented by Adam chose to do what he
> > wanted. The outcry against Sodom and gomorah
> was
> > so grevious and thier sin so great. The Lord
> sees
> > how great was man's wickedness on the earth and
> > that every inclination of the thoughts of man's
> > heart was only evil.
>
> So God willingly kills good and evil people,
> correct?
Why do I feel like I'm being led on?
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Rod
()
Date: January 16, 2009 04:56PM
Numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did God ever help Joe Gibbs when he would kneel
> and pray that the kicker makes the field goal?
> If so, why?
> Did he like Joe Gibbs or just hate the other
> teams?
Or what dose God do with soldiers on both sides of a conflict? Is God ever hard put on who to help?
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did God ever help Joe Gibbs when he would kneel
> and pray that the kicker makes the field goal?
> If so, why?
> Did he like Joe Gibbs or just hate the other
> teams?
Or what dose God do with soldiers on both sides of a conflict? Is God ever hard put on who to help?
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Vince(1)
()
Date: January 16, 2009 06:55PM
TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the
> rich.
I really enjoy the way you think!
-------------------------------------------------------
> Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the
> rich.
I really enjoy the way you think!
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
TheMeeper
()
Date: January 16, 2009 06:59PM
Vince(1) Wrote:
>>> I really enjoy the way you think!
Credit for that quote goes to Napoleon Bonaparte.
>>> I really enjoy the way you think!
Credit for that quote goes to Napoleon Bonaparte.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Bob
()
Date: January 17, 2009 01:27AM
Rod, congratulations on realizing that organized religion is just another form of government, or an institution.
Now, just do some research on the origins of the bible, and the comparisons of the christian beliefs represented in it to the previous religious beliefs that came before it. The story of the virgin birth, the crucifixion, the resurrection. Christmas and it's relation to the winter equinox, etc.
Watch Zeitgeist. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197&ei=cndxSYXNEJHEqQKotrm3BQ&q=zeitgeist -- Just watch the first 35 to 40 minutes of it, where it explains the origins or christianity, it's roots in egyptian, greek, and other ancient religions. After that it starts getting into the Federal Reserve, Income taxes and other stuff that may or may not be of interest to you and is a bit on the fringe anyway.
It's one thing to believe in some sort of ordering principle to the universe and to even call it God, but it's another thing to subscribe to the religious views, created by man, about a magical being that lives in the sky and actually controls events on earth.
Now, just do some research on the origins of the bible, and the comparisons of the christian beliefs represented in it to the previous religious beliefs that came before it. The story of the virgin birth, the crucifixion, the resurrection. Christmas and it's relation to the winter equinox, etc.
Watch Zeitgeist. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197&ei=cndxSYXNEJHEqQKotrm3BQ&q=zeitgeist -- Just watch the first 35 to 40 minutes of it, where it explains the origins or christianity, it's roots in egyptian, greek, and other ancient religions. After that it starts getting into the Federal Reserve, Income taxes and other stuff that may or may not be of interest to you and is a bit on the fringe anyway.
It's one thing to believe in some sort of ordering principle to the universe and to even call it God, but it's another thing to subscribe to the religious views, created by man, about a magical being that lives in the sky and actually controls events on earth.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
WashingToneLocian
()
Date: January 17, 2009 12:39PM
Rod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WashingTone Locian Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Rod Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Man represented by Adam chose to do what he
> > > wanted. The outcry against Sodom and gomorah
> > was
> > > so grevious and thier sin so great. The Lord
> > sees
> > > how great was man's wickedness on the earth
> and
> > > that every inclination of the thoughts of
> man's
> > > heart was only evil.
> >
> > So God willingly kills good and evil people,
> > correct?
>
>
> Why do I feel like I'm being led on?
In what sense?
For every contradiction, folks like you come up with some new rationalization.
The fact is God (and gods before Him) are a primitive way for humans to explain the unexplainable. If you look at some of the basic concepts of Christianity, you will see that they are all drawn from previous belief systems:
1. God's son on Earth (Egyptians - The Pharoah was the son of God on Earth. Greek/Roman - Apollo was Zeus's son - he was also a patron of shepherds.)
2. Woman impregnated by God (Virtually all ancient religions have this story, including the Greeks and Romans).
3. Man being driven from the Garden of Eden (Greeks have a story of how man lost the Golden age, which is essentially Eden).
4. Hell (Hades, another name for Hell, comes from the Greeks).
The truth is the Romans, who were known for co-opting other religious beliefs, turned Jesus from a Jewish prophet into another Apollo by giving him the attributes of Apollo. This was Constantine's effort to hold the Roman Empire together as it was coming apart because of outside influences.
-------------------------------------------------------
> WashingTone Locian Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Rod Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Man represented by Adam chose to do what he
> > > wanted. The outcry against Sodom and gomorah
> > was
> > > so grevious and thier sin so great. The Lord
> > sees
> > > how great was man's wickedness on the earth
> and
> > > that every inclination of the thoughts of
> man's
> > > heart was only evil.
> >
> > So God willingly kills good and evil people,
> > correct?
>
>
> Why do I feel like I'm being led on?
In what sense?
For every contradiction, folks like you come up with some new rationalization.
The fact is God (and gods before Him) are a primitive way for humans to explain the unexplainable. If you look at some of the basic concepts of Christianity, you will see that they are all drawn from previous belief systems:
1. God's son on Earth (Egyptians - The Pharoah was the son of God on Earth. Greek/Roman - Apollo was Zeus's son - he was also a patron of shepherds.)
2. Woman impregnated by God (Virtually all ancient religions have this story, including the Greeks and Romans).
3. Man being driven from the Garden of Eden (Greeks have a story of how man lost the Golden age, which is essentially Eden).
4. Hell (Hades, another name for Hell, comes from the Greeks).
The truth is the Romans, who were known for co-opting other religious beliefs, turned Jesus from a Jewish prophet into another Apollo by giving him the attributes of Apollo. This was Constantine's effort to hold the Roman Empire together as it was coming apart because of outside influences.
Re: Concepts of The "Institutional Church and the "Organic Church""
Posted by:
Rod
()
Date: January 17, 2009 06:34PM
Bob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rod, congratulations on realizing that organized
> religion is just another form of government, or an
> institution.
>
> Now, just do some research on the origins of the
> bible, and the comparisons of the christian
> beliefs represented in it to the previous
> religious beliefs that came before it. The story
> of the virgin birth, the crucifixion, the
> resurrection. Christmas and it's relation to the
> winter equinox, etc.
I'd been on to Christmas (and Easter, and Sunday for a long time) Nobody in the Bible kept them
>
> Watch Zeitgeist.
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847
> 743189197&ei=cndxSYXNEJHEqQKotrm3BQ&q=zeitgeist --
> Just watch the first 35 to 40 minutes of it, where
> it explains the origins or christianity, it's
> roots in egyptian, greek, and other ancient
> religions. After that it starts getting into the
> Federal Reserve, Income taxes and other stuff that
> may or may not be of interest to you and is a bit
> on the fringe anyway.
>
> It's one thing to believe in some sort of ordering
> principle to the universe and to even call it God
I'd agree here
,
> but it's another thing to subscribe to the
> religious views, created by man, about a magical
> being that lives in the sky and actually controls
> events on earth.
Prove all things and hold fast to that which is true the Bible says
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rod, congratulations on realizing that organized
> religion is just another form of government, or an
> institution.
>
> Now, just do some research on the origins of the
> bible, and the comparisons of the christian
> beliefs represented in it to the previous
> religious beliefs that came before it. The story
> of the virgin birth, the crucifixion, the
> resurrection. Christmas and it's relation to the
> winter equinox, etc.
I'd been on to Christmas (and Easter, and Sunday for a long time) Nobody in the Bible kept them
>
> Watch Zeitgeist.
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847
> 743189197&ei=cndxSYXNEJHEqQKotrm3BQ&q=zeitgeist --
> Just watch the first 35 to 40 minutes of it, where
> it explains the origins or christianity, it's
> roots in egyptian, greek, and other ancient
> religions. After that it starts getting into the
> Federal Reserve, Income taxes and other stuff that
> may or may not be of interest to you and is a bit
> on the fringe anyway.
>
> It's one thing to believe in some sort of ordering
> principle to the universe and to even call it God
I'd agree here
,
> but it's another thing to subscribe to the
> religious views, created by man, about a magical
> being that lives in the sky and actually controls
> events on earth.
Prove all things and hold fast to that which is true the Bible says