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Freon questions
Posted by: Daylin ()
Date: June 27, 2013 01:50AM

Hello, I have a couple questions about Freon refrigeration I would like comments on. I am building a fish plant and I have six tanks that require refrigeration. I have figured the btu to be somewhere between 5,000 and 11,000. There are at least 8 ways to do this, the best way for me is to go with 6 evaporators and one compressor, and the condenser I want to be geothermal, as I want to be able to direct the heat inside or outside depending on the time of year. Each tank will go from 43*f to 58*f and each will be independent of each other. They are on a cycle and depending on the season in the tank, the tank needs to be the proper temp. I am going to use it indirectly as I don't want fast temp changes as this will kill the fish. I will be using a PLC to control the temp and defrost setting and fans, that is not the problem.
Ok for the questions. Can anybody tell me how to set up 6 evaporators with one condenser, I believe I need to set up a header and use electric valves to control the flow to each expansion tube But that is a question, I don't really know. Can I use evaporators from car AC units that use R 134? I want to use a geothermal condenser so I can cycle water into it and use it to cool the hot gas. I know they have copper lines with a copper line inside to act as a heat exchanger, that is the system I am hoping to use. I know I have left out tons of facts and figures, I just need to know what is possible. I have worked a little bit with ammonia systems, but there a many differences and I don't do this for a living.. Thanks for reading ask any question, I need to get this going Thanks again Daylin

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Pro ()
Date: June 27, 2013 02:22AM

Daylin,


I can answer your questions about Freon refrigeration. My understanding is that you are building a fish plant and have six tanks that require refrigeration, and that the btu needed is at least 5,000 but no more than 11,000.

The best way for you is to go with 6 evaporators and one geothermal compressor, which will let you direct the heat inside or outside depending on the time of year. Each tank could be set for 43 to 58 degrees Farenheit and they can be independent of each other.

I would put them on a cycle and keep them at the correct temperature depending on the season in the tank. Try to use it indirectly so you don't raise the temperature too fast, as that might kill the fish. A PLC can be used to control the temperature, defrost setting, and fans.

Set up the six evaporators with one condenser, using a header and electric valves to control the flow to each expansion tube.

You can use R134 evaporators from car AC units, though they are not designed for this purpose so you might need to modify them to some extent. As I noted above, use a geothermal condenser so you can cycle water into it and use it to cool the hot gas. They have a copper line inside to act as a heat exchanger. You can find the tables you need to reference on various places on the internet, but this is definitely the way to do it.

I would not recommend an ammonia system, as there are many differences.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: A/C guy2 ()
Date: June 27, 2013 04:44AM

Daylin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello, I have a couple questions about Freon
> refrigeration I would like comments on. I am
> building a fish plant and I have six tanks that
> require refrigeration. I have figured the btu to
> be somewhere between 5,000 and 11,000. There are
> at least 8 ways to do this, the best way for me is
> to go with 6 evaporators and one compressor, and
> the condenser I want to be geothermal, as I want
> to be able to direct the heat inside or outside
> depending on the time of year. Each tank will go
> from 43*f to 58*f and each will be independent of
> each other. They are on a cycle and depending on
> the season in the tank, the tank needs to be the
> proper temp. I am going to use it indirectly as I
> don't want fast temp changes as this will kill the
> fish. I will be using a PLC to control the temp
> and defrost setting and fans, that is not the
> problem.
> Ok for the questions. Can anybody tell me how
> to set up 6 evaporators with one condenser, I
> believe I need to set up a header and use electric
> valves to control the flow to each expansion tube
> But that is a question, I don't really know. Can I
> use evaporators from car AC units that use R 134?
> I want to use a geothermal condenser so I can
> cycle water into it and use it to cool the hot
> gas. I know they have copper lines with a copper
> line inside to act as a heat exchanger, that is
> the system I am hoping to use. I know I have left
> out tons of facts and figures, I just need to know
> what is possible. I have worked a little bit with
> ammonia systems, but there a many differences and
> I don't do this for a living.. Thanks for
> reading ask any question, I need to get this going
> Thanks again Daylin


You are making no sense. You are talking about a water to water system. There will be no fans and no defrost so there is no need for a programmable logic controller.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Tank guy ()
Date: June 27, 2013 04:52AM

A/C guy2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Daylin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hello, I have a couple questions about Freon
> > refrigeration I would like comments on. I am
> > building a fish plant and I have six tanks that
> > require refrigeration. I have figured the btu
> to
> > be somewhere between 5,000 and 11,000. There
> are
> > at least 8 ways to do this, the best way for me
> is
> > to go with 6 evaporators and one compressor,
> and
> > the condenser I want to be geothermal, as I
> want
> > to be able to direct the heat inside or outside
> > depending on the time of year. Each tank will
> go
> > from 43*f to 58*f and each will be independent
> of
> > each other. They are on a cycle and depending
> on
> > the season in the tank, the tank needs to be
> the
> > proper temp. I am going to use it indirectly as
> I
> > don't want fast temp changes as this will kill
> the
> > fish. I will be using a PLC to control the temp
> > and defrost setting and fans, that is not the
> > problem.
> > Ok for the questions. Can anybody tell me
> how
> > to set up 6 evaporators with one condenser, I
> > believe I need to set up a header and use
> electric
> > valves to control the flow to each expansion
> tube
> > But that is a question, I don't really know. Can
> I
> > use evaporators from car AC units that use R
> 134?
> > I want to use a geothermal condenser so I can
> > cycle water into it and use it to cool the hot
> > gas. I know they have copper lines with a
> copper
> > line inside to act as a heat exchanger, that is
> > the system I am hoping to use. I know I have
> left
> > out tons of facts and figures, I just need to
> know
> > what is possible. I have worked a little bit
> with
> > ammonia systems, but there a many differences
> and
> > I don't do this for a living.. Thanks for
> > reading ask any question, I need to get this
> going
> > Thanks again Daylin
>
>
> You are making no sense. You are talking about a
> water to water system. There will be no fans and
> no defrost so there is no need for a programmable
> logic controller.

Correct there is no "need" for a programmable logic controller. However, by using one, he can aboud the potential backow problems that could occur as a result of improper cromulation of the plebus joints in the prang joisters.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Controller ()
Date: June 27, 2013 06:42AM

What type of PlC are you using? Sensors and thermocouplers? Set up as a PID loop?
Tying everthing together so you have redundancy?
Are your pumps controlled by freq drives?

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: willis carrier ()
Date: June 27, 2013 07:54AM

Instead of using multiple evaperators why not set up a closed loop? It sounds like the delta range you need is nowhere near freezing so you can use plain water and no need for glycol. You can submerge multiple water coils and maintain a loop with a common water furnace water to water heat pump. Make it even better by getting the inverter technology compresser model. This will give good control of the loop while saving energy. Once the initial loop temp has been established the ITC will ramp down as low as 25 percent of rated capicity and keep a very tight delta T.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Daylin ()
Date: June 27, 2013 10:32PM

Hello, WOW lots of response thanks to all. Ok Yes I need a PLC as the whole reason for refrigeration is that the temp keeps changing from day to day. It may raise 1 degree or stay the same or fall 1.5 degrees depending on the day of the year. I am simulating seasons of the year to make them produce eggs. The reason not to make it direct is because I can only use copper or aluminum for the evaporator being its a Freon system and I cannot put that in direct contact with my water, that would be bad, Kill the fish. As far as the geothermal and water to water goes, I think your confusing the evaporator with the condenser.
I don't know if the pressures for auto and residential are the same and the expansion valve is compatible. If you don't understand something that's ok please don't respond I am not looking for a silly fight. If you have a direct knowledge of how to do multiple evaporators on a Freon system I would love to hear from you or used a auto evaporator with a residential compressor. If you have links to working systems, that would be wonderful. Thanks again for all you responses.

The PLC is a Allen Bradly 1200 platform, the rtd is direct using a RTD input card. No need for freq drives on any of the pumps. Daylin

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Data ()
Date: June 28, 2013 04:35AM

I recommend modulating the shield frequencies on a rotating basis.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Laughable ()
Date: June 28, 2013 06:11AM

Did anyone else notice that the first response just repeats Dylan's questions as answer? Others just spew nonsense that sound reasonable to those who have no idea what the question is about.

Too funny.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: freonist ()
Date: June 28, 2013 06:20AM

Take 8 cubic inches of freon and put it in the modulator.... very simple

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: dupont ()
Date: June 28, 2013 08:23AM

You should consider using R404a rather than R134a. The flash point of the 404 is much closer to the temperature ranges stated. And use expansion valves rather than a fixed orfice metering device. This will prevent liquid slugging.

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GOT KOI FISH?
Posted by: Fairfax Boy ()
Date: June 28, 2013 07:04PM

I THINK WE FOUND THE GUY WHO TOOK ALL OF THOSE KOI FISH

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Daylin? ()
Date: June 29, 2013 07:52AM

The only guy in the world I ever new that had that name was Daylin Rish and he was a good guy.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Daylin! ()
Date: June 29, 2013 10:23AM

Daylin? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only guy in the world I ever new that had that
> name was Daylin Rish and he was a good guy.

Was? Is he died?

This is a funny thread. If you know anything about cooling systems you you understand that the answers make no sense.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: put THAT in your algorithm ()
Date: June 29, 2013 10:44AM

Daylin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello, WOW lots of response thanks to all. Ok Yes
> I need a PLC as the whole reason for refrigeration
> is that the temp keeps changing from day to day.
> It may raise 1 degree or stay the same or fall 1.5
> degrees depending on the day of the year. I am
> simulating seasons of the year to make them
> produce eggs. The reason not to make it direct is
> because I can only use copper or aluminum for the
> evaporator being its a Freon system and I cannot
> put that in direct contact with my water, that
> would be bad, Kill the fish. As far as the
> geothermal and water to water goes, I think your
> confusing the evaporator with the condenser.
> I don't know if the pressures for auto and
> residential are the same and the expansion valve
> is compatible. If you don't understand something
> that's ok please don't respond I am not looking
> for a silly fight. If you have a direct knowledge
> of how to do multiple evaporators on a Freon
> system I would love to hear from you or used a
> auto evaporator with a residential compressor. If
> you have links to working systems, that would be
> wonderful. Thanks again for all you responses.
>
> The PLC is a Allen Bradly 1200 platform, the rtd
> is direct using a RTD input card. No need for freq
> drives on any of the pumps. Daylin


Screw the PLC. Just take a couple of white-rogers, honeywell or Johnson controls digital pilot duty thermostats and a 50va transformer plus a half dozen RIB relays and wire up your own control system at 24vac. I am old school but it drives me crazy to see these young kids run to a high dollar PLC to program a simple algorithm that you can make yourself for just a few bucks.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Daylin ()
Date: June 30, 2013 08:35AM

Thanks for the reply everybody. Ok WHO KNOWS ME. I would like to know who wrote Daylin rish. That's creeps me out.

Ok to old school. I would like to see you control the lights in various lums for the different seasons, and control the lighting for the plants with relay logic. and what would you do for analog inputs for the oxygen sensors? and RTD inputs for the temp? Ok you could use a pid, but only to control the temp. How about to control the feed? It would get very complicated and big very fast. My 250 dollar e-bay plc would start to look like a good deal. And I would love to see how you make a touch screen work with it.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: bottom feeders ()
Date: June 30, 2013 10:22AM

"Ok WHO KNOWS ME. I would like to know who wrote Daylin rish"


You gave out too much personal information. The trolls on this forum dig deep!

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: 407c ()
Date: November 20, 2013 04:06AM

dupont Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You should consider using R404a rather than R134a.
> The flash point of the 404 is much closer to the
> temperature ranges stated. And use expansion
> valves rather than a fixed orfice metering device.
> This will prevent liquid slugging.


You need to take a hard look at the temperature glide and the bubble point on 407c. When it comes to chilled water 407c is the go-to as far as I am concerned. The 12 of course would be best but the EPA screwed us on that one.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: JacobsLadder ()
Date: November 20, 2013 01:20PM

Dude watch out for thermodynamic irreversibility it can be a real motherfucker. A vortex tube would probably be your best bet. I prefer an R744A system and make sure your oriffice parameters are correct.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: xxx ()
Date: November 20, 2013 10:08PM

Put some plutonium in the flux capacitor and all should work fine.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Romulus ()
Date: November 21, 2013 01:34PM

Federation brand refrigeration systems from 1967 to 69 with inverse dilithum crystals are far superior to modern refrigeration systems using R22 or 134A. These were banned in 1970 but preexisting systems are grandfathered in. I prefer Federation refrigeration unit model NCC-1701. There are other units such as the vastly inferior NCC-1701/7 but the model NCC-1701 is the gold standard and the one to look for. It may take some looking but these systems pop up on ebay and Craig's list from time to time. Others have reported finding these units on the Silk Road (coming out of Russia) Once you have obtained said unit it is imperative that the Alpha, Gamma and Delta coordinates are congruent at exactly 367 degrees azimuth of the ventricular Nebula Axis. This system must be pressure tested for leaks or fissures or much worse; worm holes may develop. Your ideal test readings should be 6,904 F bubble and -211 F squeak. When in doubt always remember that the triple point of the Vienna Standard of Mean Ocean Water is your friend.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Shirley ()
Date: November 21, 2013 01:39PM

You're going to need an XR-2300. Not an XR-2200, that's muffler bracket for a 79 Pinto

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: freon peon ()
Date: November 22, 2013 12:07PM

407c Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dupont Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You should consider using R404a rather than
> R134a.
> > The flash point of the 404 is much closer to
> the
> > temperature ranges stated. And use expansion
> > valves rather than a fixed orfice metering
> device.
> > This will prevent liquid slugging.
>
>
> You need to take a hard look at the temperature
> glide and the bubble point on 407c. When it comes
> to chilled water 407c is the go-to as far as I am
> concerned. The 12 of course would be best but the
> EPA screwed us on that one.

407c tends to fractionalize.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Dion Freon ()
Date: November 22, 2013 12:38PM

freon peon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 407c Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > dupont Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > You should consider using R404a rather than
> > R134a.
> > > The flash point of the 404 is much closer to
> > the
> > > temperature ranges stated. And use expansion
> > > valves rather than a fixed orfice metering
> > device.
> > > This will prevent liquid slugging.
> >
> >
> > You need to take a hard look at the temperature
> > glide and the bubble point on 407c. When it
> comes
> > to chilled water 407c is the go-to as far as I
> am
> > concerned. The 12 of course would be best but
> the
> > EPA screwed us on that one.
>
> 407c tends to fractionalize.

Not necessarily.If you have the orifice valves in correct alignment there is little to no fractalization with 407c.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Kardiac17 ()
Date: November 22, 2013 01:07PM

At what point does he get a baloney sandwich from Mom and re-sizes his tinfoil hat?

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: squidwerd ()
Date: November 23, 2013 06:45PM

Kardiac17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At what point does he get a baloney sandwich from
> Mom and re-sizes his tinfoil hat?


I guess when he gets his 6 fish tanks up and running thanks to all the free expert professional advice on FFU.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: XXX ()
Date: November 25, 2013 07:18PM

He said orifice

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: perfect world lol ()
Date: November 25, 2013 08:09PM

Dion Freon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> freon peon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 407c Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > dupont Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > You should consider using R404a rather than
> > > R134a.
> > > > The flash point of the 404 is much closer
> to
> > > the
> > > > temperature ranges stated. And use
> expansion
> > > > valves rather than a fixed orfice metering
> > > device.
> > > > This will prevent liquid slugging.
> > >
> > >
> > > You need to take a hard look at the
> temperature
> > > glide and the bubble point on 407c. When it
> > comes
> > > to chilled water 407c is the go-to as far as
> I
> > am
> > > concerned. The 12 of course would be best but
> > the
> > > EPA screwed us on that one.
> >
> > 407c tends to fractionalize.
>
> Not necessarily.If you have the orifice valves in
> correct alignment there is little to no
> fractalization with 407c.


Latest update on our knowledge in the field ofR-407C fractionation and
evaluation of its impact while the system is in operation has been poor. Furthermore, the impact of leakages has
been evaluated in terms of performance changes and fractionation ofR-407C. Concentration
shifts also result from common practice in the servicing of refrigeration installations. All these
potential problems with R-407C have been quantified in an existing experimental refrigeration
system, including recharge operations.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: freon peon ()
Date: November 27, 2013 04:47AM

The fractalization issue with the 407c is in regards to leakage issues. Should the system spring a refrigerant leak the 407c's compound would likely change radically due to the fact that it is a blend. Full system recovery and recharge of virgin refrigerant would be in order. R134a however can be topped off repeatedly with no ill effects.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: superheat city ()
Date: July 05, 2014 06:58AM

freon peon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fractalization issue with the 407c is in
> regards to leakage issues. Should the system
> spring a refrigerant leak the 407c's compound
> would likely change radically due to the fact that
> it is a blend. Full system recovery and recharge
> of virgin refrigerant would be in order. R134a
> however can be topped off repeatedly with no ill
> effects.


+1
I recently had to shell out some serious cash to replace some 407c on a water cooled system. This same system could have easily been topped off if it had been built around 134a. Live and learn I guess but that was an expensive lesson!

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Ewsw ()
Date: July 05, 2014 06:21PM

Nobody uses freon any more. It's illegal. You should be using dilithium crystals or Rubat power crystals.

I have my systems hook in parallel using three flux capacitors to regulate the temps. I strongly recommend the flux capacitors.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: hvac supply ()
Date: July 11, 2014 03:04PM

superheat city Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> freon peon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The fractalization issue with the 407c is in
> > regards to leakage issues. Should the system
> > spring a refrigerant leak the 407c's compound
> > would likely change radically due to the fact
> that
> > it is a blend. Full system recovery and
> recharge
> > of virgin refrigerant would be in order. R134a
> > however can be topped off repeatedly with no
> ill
> > effects.
>
>
> +1
> I recently had to shell out some serious cash to
> replace some 407c on a water cooled system. This
> same system could have easily been topped off if
> it had been built around 134a. Live and learn I
> guess but that was an expensive lesson!


Freon is on sale right now.

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: subcooling ()
Date: December 30, 2014 09:31AM

What is your subcooling?

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: CDcx3 ()
Date: January 01, 2015 07:07PM

Pro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Daylin,
>
>
> I can answer your questions about Freon
> refrigeration. My understanding is that you are
> building a fish plant and have six tanks that
> require refrigeration, and that the btu needed is
> at least 5,000 but no more than 11,000.
>
> The best way for you is to go with 6 evaporators
> and one geothermal compressor, which will let you
> direct the heat inside or outside depending on the
> time of year. Each tank could be set for 43 to 58
> degrees Farenheit and they can be independent of
> each other.
>
> I would put them on a cycle and keep them at the
> correct temperature depending on the season in the
> tank. Try to use it indirectly so you don't raise
> the temperature too fast, as that might kill the
> fish. A PLC can be used to control the
> temperature, defrost setting, and fans.
>
> Set up the six evaporators with one condenser,
> using a header and electric valves to control the
> flow to each expansion tube.
>
> You can use R134 evaporators from car AC units,
> though they are not designed for this purpose so
> you might need to modify them to some extent. As
> I noted above, use a geothermal condenser so you
> can cycle water into it and use it to cool the hot
> gas. They have a copper line inside to act as a
> heat exchanger. You can find the tables you need
> to reference on various places on the internet,
> but this is definitely the way to do it.
>
> I would not recommend an ammonia system, as there
> are many differences.
>
> Hope this helps.


only reapeated the stupid question asked


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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: vtemn ()
Date: January 01, 2015 07:08PM


soldering is cheaper and more available than high pressure fittings


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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Hd7Uw ()
Date: January 01, 2015 07:15PM


asia is heavily pushing airconditioners on the web and hiding american brands, all over the web

also they are working with home depot to prevent Americans who would buy Made in U.S.A. from doing so by insuring they are not on the shelf



HOWEVER one of the old huge giants, with many patents (no doubt being infringed upon) is Carrier and Frigid Aire

Carrier is based in FL. recently a fake car crash was set up right outside the owner of the mega giant industry carrier, a car with a young guy doing nothing parked illegally.

state of FL imprisoned the owner of carrier and TRIED - TRIED to get the fortune, but the carrier lawyers blocked the GOVERMENT WORKER ATTACKERS from doing so

--------------------------
QUESTION: did fucking foreigners set up my man, the owner of Carrier ?


--------------------
ps everyone knows you dont set up re-directing heat: vent control electronics are built into most any of Carriers building unit models

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: j3C44 ()
Date: January 01, 2015 07:18PM

the parked car - parked near the guys home lights off. had the family owner of Carrier seen the car he should have hit and run: fearing an unusual car with lights off in a very wealthy Florida neighborhood was only there for trouble - a hold-up perhaps
Attachments:
img.jpg
img2.jpg

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: P6tch ()
Date: January 01, 2015 07:18PM

.
Attachments:
img3.jpg

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: hwv3u ()
Date: January 01, 2015 07:19PM

.
Attachments:
img.jpg

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: yGY6P ()
Date: January 01, 2015 07:22PM

a local fairfax company installed AC. sold my too old to think critically father on a upgrade unit

the unit didnt' fit leaked water on the circuit board and burned out parts: the same board that controls the heater fuel in emergency situations

they came to the house multiple times, 5 yrs straight, and could not figure out why the unit didn't work but suggested an $800 "upgrade"

---------------------------------
should i

1) open it up, fix the pan which never fit because they are assholes

2) replace the burned parts on the circuit board myself for $25

or should i act like a fx co gov worker and call a mexican to install a whole new unit ?

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: YTe9j ()
Date: January 01, 2015 07:23PM

^^^^^^^^^^^

i think he's rigth ! the fuckign foreigners and gov of FL (cubans) paid to attack the family owner of an american mega corporation !

they set him up: and tried to grab the whole fortune - to kill another american manufacturer

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: PhJDC ()
Date: January 01, 2015 07:29PM

i have a new Samsung refridgerator. refidgerators should last a good 25 yr. if this one doesn't i may not be able to replace it.

same with a stove: won't turn on if electronics are broken. a stove can last 100 years (ONE HUNDRED YEARS) if you keep it clean.


PROBLEM: new one is made in asia and was way more expensive. they put all kinda of electronic crap on it. i fear for my life that this cheap crap electrong gadgets will fail and i'll have no food or way to cook due to a design which puts attacking american and fooling women ahead of supplying a product that is heavily relied upon and needs to be reliable.

HOW CAN I SUE THE FUCKING ASIAN FOR MAKING A STOVE AND A REFRIDGERATOR FULL OF GADGETS TO SUCH EXTENT IT'S SUCH A PIECE OF CRAP I SHOULD FEAR IT WILL BREAK BEFORE THE BILLS ARE PAID AND I WONT HAVE A WAY TO EAT ?

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Re: Freon questions
Posted by: hdG7D ()
Date: January 01, 2015 07:41PM

casey antony is a cop's daughter

she can be caught and on tv 3 years of re-runs straight

and Florida doesnt jail her. instead: they flaunt their skill of blowing money and allowing gov workers full power. and go on to provide more such stories for their competiing broadcasting system (they compete with NY and CA)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: kent dorfman ()
Date: January 02, 2015 07:14AM

YTe9j Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> i think he's rigth ! the fuckign foreigners and
> gov of FL (cubans) paid to attack the family owner
> of an american mega corporation !
>
> they set him up: and tried to grab the whole
> fortune - to kill another american manufacturer


Carrier is a publicly owned company, they are part of United Technology.

And, Yes as with most things the Asians are making better equipment with better customer support at a better price with a better warranty.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: expert2 ()
Date: January 02, 2015 01:22PM

Jean-Pierre, the friend of Jacques and the Interloper, laughs out loud with an ostensibly strawberry-blonde clodhopper. A trombone living with a pocket is sheepish. The waif writes a love letter to a bonbon living with some bicep, because a midwife from a clodhopper secretly admires a toothpick behind a boy. A piroshki steals pencils from a cream puff.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: energy, pure ()
Date: July 17, 2016 08:59AM

kent dorfman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> YTe9j Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > i think he's rigth ! the fuckign foreigners
> and
> > gov of FL (cubans) paid to attack the family
> owner
> > of an american mega corporation !
> >
> > they set him up: and tried to grab the whole
> > fortune - to kill another american manufacturer
>
>
> Carrier is a publicly owned company, they are part
> of United Technology.
>
> And, Yes as with most things the Asians are making
> better equipment with better customer support at a
> better price with a better warranty.


Mitsubishi is kicking Carrier in the ass.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: YyV4v ()
Date: July 17, 2016 06:02PM

so you want to program the fluid/gas control valve by using tables (or just by measuring after it's done - easier) ? why not use a pre-built system off EBAY ? and why would you magically specify only one compressor if you need failover and your BTU req's are handled by small compressors ?


totally full of of shit TROLL has all he needs on google likely showing off what he learned on wikipedia



the deal is figuring how length of copper pipe effect the system IF you have to elongate ones that are stock ... possible creating a need for a different T valve or T value adjustment. but because there are tons of websites that show formulas and experience in doing that - it's NOT HARD

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: LxC46 ()
Date: July 17, 2016 06:05PM

or get the one with the feedback/action T valve so you have zero work to do other than install

don't forget your programmable air vents !

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: utNYM ()
Date: July 17, 2016 06:07PM

hdG7D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> casey antony is a cop's daughter
>
> she can be caught and on tv 3 years of re-runs
> straight
>
> and Florida doesnt jail her. instead: they flaunt
> their skill of blowing money and allowing gov
> workers full power. and go on to provide more
> such stories for their competiing broadcasting
> system (they compete with NY and CA)

this isn't the BLM post

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Hxtj4 ()
Date: July 17, 2016 06:08PM

fish grown in tanks get ick - you can't eat them

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: vbXHu ()
Date: July 18, 2016 11:40AM


does your recovery tank automatically separate freon from air (like a RobinAir unit) so that you don't have to recycle what your recover and can put it back in the system ? or do you plan to go by weight ?



note while NASA says R12 causes long lived chain reactions that burn off protective ozone ... countries like mexico still release it freely in the air - no law against it there.

everyone pays for that - esp people who paid to prevent it to have someone else unravel their costs

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: nkXKv ()
Date: July 18, 2016 11:42AM


those damn autozone advanced auto carquest napa freon kits ...

they promote people releasing r13a into air (see instructions) but your NOT supposed to do that either

i see people frequently say "so what just blow it off"

they shouldn't sell those kits they know people will do that


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: EPA ()
Date: July 18, 2016 08:02PM

WE are watching you!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Zync coated ()
Date: August 07, 2016 09:25AM

superheat city Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> freon peon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The fractalization issue with the 407c is in
> > regards to leakage issues. Should the system
> > spring a refrigerant leak the 407c's compound
> > would likely change radically due to the fact
> that
> > it is a blend. Full system recovery and
> recharge
> > of virgin refrigerant would be in order. R134a
> > however can be topped off repeatedly with no
> ill
> > effects.
>
>
> +1
> I recently had to shell out some serious cash to
> replace some 407c on a water cooled system. This
> same system could have easily been topped off if
> it had been built around 134a. Live and learn I
> guess but that was an expensive lesson!


You lose more than 10% of your total charge on 407c you are done! You just cant top that bitch off and expect your bubble point to be anywhere near what your p/t chart says it should be. These environmentally friendly refrigerants suck!
Attachments:
407c.jpg

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: et6vN ()
Date: August 07, 2016 02:24PM

i'll get back to you early this fall on that freon question of yours

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: jmGYY ()
Date: August 07, 2016 02:25PM


i don't do all that

i just throw some icecubes in with the fish - and they love playing with them


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: 4LncN ()
Date: August 07, 2016 02:27PM

.
Attachments:
img2.jpeg
img1.jpeg

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: dTwde ()
Date: August 07, 2016 02:27PM

.
Attachments:
img.jpeg

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: vCnMG ()
Date: August 07, 2016 02:29PM

Zync coated Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> superheat city Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > freon peon Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The fractalization issue with the 407c is in
> > > regards to leakage issues. Should the system
> > > spring a refrigerant leak the 407c's compound
> > > would likely change radically due to the fact
> > that
> > > it is a blend. Full system recovery and
> > recharge
> > > of virgin refrigerant would be in order.
> R134a
> > > however can be topped off repeatedly with no
> > ill
> > > effects.
> >
> >
> > +1
> > I recently had to shell out some serious cash
> to
> > replace some 407c on a water cooled system.
> This
> > same system could have easily been topped off
> if
> > it had been built around 134a. Live and learn I
> > guess but that was an expensive lesson!
>
>
> You lose more than 10% of your total charge on
> 407c you are done! You just cant top that bitch
> off and expect your bubble point to be anywhere
> near what your p/t chart says it should be. These
> environmentally friendly refrigerants suck!

that's the worse triple point chart i've seen yet

your a lying sack of shit - refridgerants have improved vastly

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: eVLeE ()
Date: August 07, 2016 02:31PM

you otter use ice cubes in fish farms
Attachments:
img3.jpeg

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: left lane driver ()
Date: August 08, 2016 04:14PM

I hit a deer with my kia and all the freon escaped. The EPA gave me a 133 dollar fine. I felt like the deer should have gotten the fine.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: subcool tool ()
Date: April 16, 2017 04:00AM

I have heard that R-22d is nothing more than R-407c in disguise. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: subcool tool ()
Date: April 16, 2017 04:11AM

This is the breakdown for 407c, cant find exact info on 22d.

Monosubstituted
CH3F CH3Cl CH3Br CH3I
Disubstituted
CH2F2 CH2ClF CH2BrF CH2FI CH2Cl2 CH2BrCl CH2ClI CH2Br2 CH2BrI CH2I2
Trisubstituted
CHF3 CHClF2 CHBrF2 CHF2I CHCl2F C*HBrClF C*HClFI CHBr2F C*HBrFI CHFI2 CHCl3 CHBrCl2 CHCl2I CHBr2Cl C*HBrClI CHClI2 CHBr3 CHBr2I CHBrI2 CHI3
Tetrasubstituted
CF4 CClF3 CBrF3 CF3I CCl2F2 CBrClF2 CClF2I CBr2F2 CBrF2I CF2I2 CCl3F CBrCl2F CCl2FI CBr2ClF C*BrClFI CClFI2 CBr3F CBr2FI CBrFI2 CFI3 CCl4 CBrCl3 CCl3I CBr2Cl2 CBrCl2I CCl2I2 CBr3Cl CBr2ClI CBrClI2 CClI3 CBr4 CBr3I CBr2I2 CBrI3 CI4
* Chiral compound.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: kvEm9 ()
Date: April 16, 2017 02:29PM

congradulations OP your pretending you know something about freon but are just cut and pasting other people's work. where's the pics of the systems you built? 0.


hispanics don't follow the freon rules they outgas it to the open air

especially in their own country they are doing that

it's an international problem that the USA is pressure to follow rules that others are breaking

and USA is owed fucking money for it


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: 77KnN ()
Date: April 16, 2017 02:31PM

the fact and physics of condensation are that systems are not perfect: they can be dirty, have improper oil, be exposed to sunlight, etc


your equations are crap you should have paid the $5 extra for the sight glass

case closed


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: maintenance man ()
Date: April 16, 2017 03:00PM

subcool tool Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have heard that R-22d is nothing more than
> R-407c in disguise. Can anyone confirm or deny
> this?


Back in 09 I retrofitted a fairly new water cooled 80 ton r-22 unit with 407c. It had 4 separate circuits cooled by one cooling tower. One circuit developed a small leak that I tried like hell to locate and couldn't, I finally figured it must be on the water side which was always on the high side as this was straight A-C not a heat pump so I knew the water would not get into the refrigerant circuit unless I let it go flat.
Long story short I was topping off about a pound of 407c twice a cooling season It was not 2 years before fractionalization took its toll and the 407c static looked more like r-500! It was very bad. I disabled that one circuit until fall and replaced that water cooled condenser then weighed in r-22d to that one circuit. I labeled it well so anyone who works on it in the future knows that the one circuit is r-22d. I learned my lesson, no more 407c for me!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: heat load ()
Date: July 08, 2017 08:57AM

maintenance man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> subcool tool Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have heard that R-22d is nothing more than
> > R-407c in disguise. Can anyone confirm or deny
> > this?
>
>
> Back in 09 I retrofitted a fairly new water cooled
> 80 ton r-22 unit with 407c. It had 4 separate
> circuits cooled by one cooling tower. One circuit
> developed a small leak that I tried like hell to
> locate and couldn't, I finally figured it must be
> on the water side which was always on the high
> side as this was straight A-C not a heat pump so I
> knew the water would not get into the refrigerant
> circuit unless I let it go flat.
> Long story short I was topping off about a pound
> of 407c twice a cooling season It was not 2 years
> before fractionalization took its toll and the
> 407c static looked more like r-500! It was very
> bad. I disabled that one circuit until fall and
> replaced that water cooled condenser then weighed
> in r-22d to that one circuit. I labeled it well so
> anyone who works on it in the future knows that
> the one circuit is r-22d. I learned my lesson, no
> more 407c for me!


Well you better find something to replace it as a can of r-22 is now over a thousand bucks! 407c has been good to me!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Date: July 09, 2017 07:59AM

It's not poisonous it's safe to drink, and it's a good thing to drink on a hot summer day.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: jack hvac ()
Date: January 10, 2018 04:43AM

subcool tool Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is the breakdown for 407c, cant find exact
> info on 22d.
>
> Monosubstituted
> CH3F CH3Cl CH3Br CH3I
> Disubstituted
> CH2F2 CH2ClF CH2BrF CH2FI CH2Cl2 CH2BrCl CH2ClI
> CH2Br2 CH2BrI CH2I2
> Trisubstituted
> CHF3 CHClF2 CHBrF2 CHF2I CHCl2F C*HBrClF C*HClFI
> CHBr2F C*HBrFI CHFI2 CHCl3 CHBrCl2 CHCl2I CHBr2Cl
> C*HBrClI CHClI2 CHBr3 CHBr2I CHBrI2 CHI3
> Tetrasubstituted
> CF4 CClF3 CBrF3 CF3I CCl2F2 CBrClF2 CClF2I CBr2F2
> CBrF2I CF2I2 CCl3F CBrCl2F CCl2FI CBr2ClF C*BrClFI
> CClFI2 CBr3F CBr2FI CBrFI2 CFI3 CCl4 CBrCl3 CCl3I
> CBr2Cl2 CBrCl2I CCl2I2 CBr3Cl CBr2ClI CBrClI2
> CClI3 CBr4 CBr3I CBr2I2 CBrI3 CI4
> * Chiral compound.


You mean CCI2L2d right?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: superheat city ()
Date: April 30, 2018 05:53PM

R-22D is the way to go. R-22 is crazy expensive and r-407c needs a oil change and no way you are going to try that with hermetic compressor residential units. No topping off with 22d though, you got to recover all the 22 then weigh in 22D.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: bubble point boy ()
Date: June 02, 2018 05:27PM

superheat city Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> R-22D is the way to go. R-22 is crazy expensive
> and r-407c needs a oil change and no way you are
> going to try that with hermetic compressor
> residential units. No topping off with 22d though,
> you got to recover all the 22 then weigh in 22D.


You can top it off if your loss is less than 15% but only ONCE!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Scott Nelson ()
Date: June 05, 2018 06:27AM

The cooling system can last long and be efficient, saving you lot of money with regular checkups. Refrigerant(freon) leaks are the common problem if not properly checked. Low Freon levels indicate leakage. It may also go undetected for many days until our A/C stops cooling. Therefore, it is important to always fix timely checkups from the air conditioning repairs NJ like professionals to ensure our home comfort.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: Elec mic ()
Date: June 15, 2018 08:27AM

Screw PLC. Use a PEM.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: subcooler ()
Date: May 21, 2021 05:05AM

freon peon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 407c Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > dupont Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > You should consider using R404a rather than
> > R134a.
> > > The flash point of the 404 is much closer to
> > the
> > > temperature ranges stated. And use expansion
> > > valves rather than a fixed orfice metering
> > device.
> > > This will prevent liquid slugging.
> >
> >
> > You need to take a hard look at the temperature
> > glide and the bubble point on 407c. When it
> comes
> > to chilled water 407c is the go-to as far as I
> am
> > concerned. The 12 of course would be best but
> the
> > EPA screwed us on that one.
>
> 407c tends to fractionalize.


Yes but only if you have a leak.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: super tech ()
Date: July 15, 2021 05:05AM

heat load Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> maintenance man Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > subcool tool Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I have heard that R-22d is nothing more than
> > > R-407c in disguise. Can anyone confirm or
> deny
> > > this?
> >
> >
> > Back in 09 I retrofitted a fairly new water
> cooled
> > 80 ton r-22 unit with 407c. It had 4 separate
> > circuits cooled by one cooling tower. One
> circuit
> > developed a small leak that I tried like hell
> to
> > locate and couldn't, I finally figured it must
> be
> > on the water side which was always on the high
> > side as this was straight A-C not a heat pump so
> I
> > knew the water would not get into the
> refrigerant
> > circuit unless I let it go flat.
> > Long story short I was topping off about a
> pound
> > of 407c twice a cooling season It was not 2
> years
> > before fractionalization took its toll and the
> > 407c static looked more like r-500! It was very
> > bad. I disabled that one circuit until fall and
> > replaced that water cooled condenser then
> weighed
> > in r-22d to that one circuit. I labeled it well
> so
> > anyone who works on it in the future knows that
> > the one circuit is r-22d. I learned my lesson,
> no
> > more 407c for me!
>
>
> Well you better find something to replace it as a
> can of r-22 is now over a thousand bucks! 407c has
> been good to me!


Fuck 407c. R-421a is the shit now! Very little bubble glide and fractionalization resistant.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: superheat city ()
Date: April 09, 2022 08:35AM

Dion Freon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> freon peon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 407c Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > dupont Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > You should consider using R404a rather than
> > > R134a.
> > > > The flash point of the 404 is much closer
> to
> > > the
> > > > temperature ranges stated. And use
> expansion
> > > > valves rather than a fixed orfice metering
> > > device.
> > > > This will prevent liquid slugging.
> > >
> > >
> > > You need to take a hard look at the
> temperature
> > > glide and the bubble point on 407c. When it
> > comes
> > > to chilled water 407c is the go-to as far as
> I
> > am
> > > concerned. The 12 of course would be best but
> > the
> > > EPA screwed us on that one.
> >
> > 407c tends to fractionalize.
>
> Not necessarily.If you have the orifice valves in
> correct alignment there is little to no
> fractalization with 407c.


The only way 407c will fractionalize is if it leaks out. 407c is a blend of chemicals with different molecular makeups. If you get a leak the smaller molecules will leak faster a than the larger ones. As long as the system is leak free 407c will be good.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: 68l78 ()
Date: April 10, 2022 08:22AM

THEY ARE ALL A FUCKING RIPOFF - because they are hugely over-priced propane

A PROPANE SYSTEM DESIGNED not chinese jackassed

is the way to go

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: 35rh54j ()
Date: April 10, 2022 08:25AM

68l78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THEY ARE ALL A FUCKING RIPOFF - because they are
> hugely over-priced propane
>
> A PROPANE SYSTEM DESIGNED not chinese jackassed
>
> is the way to go

a leak should be the rarest of repairs not the most common

recovered fuel should be something you can hook to your stove or BBQ, not something vile that legally has to be "presented to a chem lab"

THE INDUSTRY IS CORRUPT AS HELL

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: v 35rh54j ()
Date: April 10, 2022 08:47AM

Supposedly, "chemisty" has saved the industry by providing a "better fuel", R12 et al, better than propane (which, btw, has nearly the same cooling properties of the super expensive modern lab gasses).

However, the systems have all become super fragilistic. And the gases have a huge cost.

YOU AREN'T SAVING ENERGY using the new gasses, you are just fueling very corrupt families who've created this business by using corrupt government.

the only redeeming feature is the pumps are about the same as they've always been since the propane days - which says not allot. they are actually made cheaper but by better machining. but they have been going bad also because they have taken cheap to the limit somewhat. just not as bad as the other components

=============================

* super expensive units, cost as much as a car, badly made, also hard to work on (tight space cheap ass all bundled and complicated to get apart). we're talking some ashole from england assure your old white parents they need a $12,000 to be safe and legal or it will be rickety and unsafe to invest, then say the new units aren't compatible with the core, $12,000. But with installation $30,000

$30,000. and installed illegally insurance won't cover failure, and illegal aliens will assuredly insure there will be a failure

* today's fragile systems break frequently, less repairable, many break on installation even - that is never serve and are BBB lawsuit fiasco

* super expensive gas. like $350 to fill up versus $20.

* EARLY FAILURE - youtube should convince you failures are frequent and replacements are mostly, except for maybe Trane, made in china


* you LOOSE MONEY in every which way using the new systems including carbon footprint credits

you can't spend $30,000 and think that money isn't going to toward TARDS stepping their foot on the gas, eating out at steakhouses, building mansions, and government contract corruption. THAT'S EXACTLY WHERE THAT EXTRA $$$$ IS GOING


(you are not being more green, you are burning more trees using the new systems because all these things involve money spent by people burning fuel and living it up who aren't green - who step their foot on the gas hard)


THE NEW SYSTEMS DO NOT SAVE ELECTRICITY AT A $30,000 PRICE TAG

THEY ARE HUGE WASTERS


You can't run the system long enough to pay back the losses. It'd have to run for 10,000 years or something.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: 45hjj54 ()
Date: April 10, 2022 08:50AM

einstein-albert_2x_twittershare_1024.jpg

checkmate

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: xxfrupxx ()
Date: April 10, 2022 09:22AM

v 35rh54j Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Supposedly, "chemisty" has saved the industry by
> providing a "better fuel", R12 et al, better than
> propane (which, btw, has nearly the same cooling
> properties of the super expensive modern lab
> gasses).
>
> However, the systems have all become super
> fragilistic. And the gases have a huge cost.
>
> YOU AREN'T SAVING ENERGY using the new gasses, you
> are just fueling very corrupt families who've
> created this business by using corrupt
> government.
>
> the only redeeming feature is the pumps are about
> the same as they've always been since the propane
> days - which says not allot. they are actually
> made cheaper but by better machining. but they
> have been going bad also because they have taken
> cheap to the limit somewhat. just not as bad as
> the other components
>
> =============================
>
> * super expensive units, cost as much as a car,
> badly made, also hard to work on (tight space
> cheap ass all bundled and complicated to get
> apart). we're talking some ashole from england
> assure your old white parents they need a $12,000
> to be safe and legal or it will be rickety and
> unsafe to invest, then say the new units aren't
> compatible with the core, $12,000. But with
> installation $30,000
>
> $30,000. and installed illegally insurance won't
> cover failure, and illegal aliens will assuredly
> insure there will be a failure
>
> * today's fragile systems break frequently, less
> repairable, many break on installation even - that
> is never serve and are BBB lawsuit fiasco
>
> * super expensive gas. like $350 to fill up
> versus $20.
>
> * EARLY FAILURE - youtube should convince you
> failures are frequent and replacements are mostly,
> except for maybe Trane, made in china
>
>
> * you LOOSE MONEY in every which way using the new
> systems including carbon footprint credits
>
> you can't spend $30,000 and think that money isn't
> going to toward TARDS stepping their foot on the
> gas, eating out at steakhouses, building mansions,
> and government contract corruption. THAT'S
> EXACTLY WHERE THAT EXTRA $$$$ IS GOING
>

>
> (you are not being more green, you are burning
> more trees using the new systems because all these
> things involve money spent by people burning fuel
> and living it up who aren't green - who step their
> foot on the gas hard)
>
>
> THE NEW SYSTEMS DO NOT SAVE ELECTRICITY AT A
> $30,000 PRICE TAG
>
> THEY ARE HUGE WASTERS
>

>
> You can't run the system long enough to pay back
> the losses. It'd have to run for 10,000 years or
> something.


That's stupid.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Freon questions
Posted by: not a lawyer ()
Date: March 03, 2023 03:32PM

left lane driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hit a deer with my kia and all the freon
> escaped. The EPA gave me a 133 dollar fine. I felt
> like the deer should have gotten the fine.

Seems unfair

Options: ReplyQuote


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