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Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 18, 2013 01:28PM

Proponents claim that LEGALIZING immigrants who are currently undocumented will
"bring them out of the shadows" and "create taxpayers".

Is this really what will happen?

If I am an illegal laborer making $10 an hour for some pick and shovel work and being paid as a day laborer or subcontractor, what will motivate me to pay taxes?


If I become legal, does this mean I can automatically demand a higher wage?

If 11 million people become legal, does this mean there is automatically room in the market place for higher wages and payroll jobs that require contributions to FICA?

If 11 million people are legalized and demand a higher wage, will this not damage the cost effectiveness of these workers and create a demand for NEW ILLEGAL WORKERS, who are willing to work under the table for a lower wage?

The Underground Economy is big and part of our culture. People legal and illegal work under the table to avoid the Taxman and cut costs.

If granted amnesty, will illegal aliens really be incentivized to follow rules that many Americans are already not following?
Attachments:
question-mark.jpg

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Jose Washington ()
Date: June 18, 2013 01:42PM

You forgot to add what happens to the workers who they'll be competing with, largely black and Hispanic citizens working lower-end jobs. They are the ones who will bear the brunt of this. Unemployment of such groups already is dismal and will just get worse.

Also didn't mention what happens when all of these people (plus more on the way) who for the most part will have minimal savings or other assets, work jobs tending to have more injuries and shorter working careers, and who will have paid little to nothing into SS/Medicare, etc., all start aging and hitting the entitlement programs which already are in dire shape.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 18, 2013 01:45PM

Jose Washington Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You forgot to add what happens to the workers who
> they'll be competing with, largely black and
> Hispanic citizens working lower-end jobs. They
> are the ones who will bear the brunt of this.
> Unemployment of such groups already is dismal and
> will just get worse.
They are already "competing" with them, but in most cases working under the table.


> Also didn't mention what happens when all of these
> people (plus more on the way) who for the most
> part will have minimal savings or other assets,
> work jobs tending to have more injuries and
> shorter working careers, and who will have paid
> little to nothing into SS/Medicare, etc., all
> start aging and hitting the entitlement programs
> which already are in dire shape.

Nearly half of all Americans pay no federal income tax, many get subsidies. Unless the illegals all have sizable assets and regularly earn $100k per year, I don't know how these bennies get paid for.


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM


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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: June 18, 2013 02:11PM

I tend to think the net to the Treasury from those here illegally won't be and may even go down. If you are here illegally and not filing income tax returns, you aren't getting the Earned income tax credit and the Child credit, both of which are refundable.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 18, 2013 02:17PM

The ones using the fake SSN's and claiming deductions usually claim 8 dependents or something outrageous knowing that they will have less withheld.


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM


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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: xdU9Y ()
Date: June 18, 2013 02:34PM

And you have lots of people filing fraudulent returns claiming 8 - 10 dependents for the credits. By IRS estimates it's a rate of 25% of EITC returns equal to around $15 billion paid out "in error" a very large part of which is straight up fraud.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Nutty Buddy ()
Date: June 18, 2013 02:50PM

From CATO:


Attachments:
6-18-2013 2-47-03 PM.jpg

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: ex-Lester ()
Date: June 18, 2013 03:16PM

The illegals get a second-class semi-permanent residency permit for 10 years (Registered Provisional Immigrant). Most of the G8 plan has to do with greatly expanding the quotas for guest workers to expand the inflow of cheap workers.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 18, 2013 03:31PM

Aw, that is sweet that someone got me a picture of a page from CATO.

I usually like the direction of their policies, except they are too sold on a hyperlibertarian stance when it comes to free trade and immigration.


I would not rely on this think tank on this issue.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Nutty Buddy ()
Date: June 18, 2013 03:38PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would not rely on this think tank on this issue.

'Cause you don't like their conclusion.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: localboob ()
Date: June 18, 2013 03:39PM

which one was question #1?

and ten dollars an hour for illegal labor? i thought the point was to pay them less than minimum wage.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 18, 2013 04:09PM

localboob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> which one was question #1?
>
> and ten dollars an hour for illegal labor? i
> thought the point was to pay them less than
> minimum wage.

$10 is just a number picked from the air. I doubt many illegals are getting paid less than minimum.

I do not trust how CATO arrived at the conclusion.

My point: there is already an established market/wage for illegal labor; fair or not this bar has been set.

These illegals are not going to show up to work one day with a green card and be able to demand a higher wage from someone who is hiring them under the table. Nor will they be enthused about being paid a wage that is now lower minus all the withholding.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Vexxxed ()
Date: June 18, 2013 04:49PM

Ever wonder why Western Union offices are suddenly so popular? Can't be for sending telegrams.

I don't know what the percentage is. I suspect it's larger for the Hispanic community that has come here trying to make a new and better life for themselves. But it's not larger by much. The other side are those that come here to make as much money in any way they can as quickly as possible so they can send 99% of it "back home". They come here with a plan to stay 3-5 years, make a ton of money and head home to live on their brand new 1000 acre, $4000 ranch. Complete with 12 $150 houses.

I've spoken with a lot of both sides over the years. The ones that want to be here and the ones that want to be here....till they are rich by their country of origins standards.

I can tell you with a lot of certainty that the illegal guest workers will NOT seek nor accept a job where they take out taxes. There is no up side for them at all.

There is also a very small percentage that came here and obtained bogus paperwork. Those you only here about when they try to enter a military installation. They get deported within 48 house. However, they are the ones that decided to stay and paid taxes for years and years through a bad SSN. Win win for the government. They get to look good deporting the criminals and they get to keep all the cash as well.

I don't know what the answer to the immigration problem is really. But I still maintain that even though Hispanics are plentiful, Central and South American countries don't produce terrorists that would happily blow themselves up to make a point and get a bunch of virgins.

Need to broaden your view, citizens.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Liberal Logic 09 ()
Date: June 18, 2013 05:13PM

The simple fact is legalizing them will cost the country 100s of billions if not trillions putting them into the social welfare systems. They work hard because they have too. They arent going to do that when they get legalized and figure out they can get 40k a year in benefits for doing nothing.

That doesnt even address the fact that they will get SS and Medicare benefits that they havent been paying into which will be a further drain on programs barely staying alive right now.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNot ()
Date: June 18, 2013 06:16PM

I can actually count. There are 5 question marks in WingNut's ignorant attempt at shooting down Immigration Reform with his "Question #1" post. Obsess much WingNut?????

Conclusion: WingNut is not a smart man. He can't even fucking count. He has no original material or thoughts to contribute to society. He just regurgitates half baked barbs from Narnia media outlets - the Talking Lyings people.

Observation - WingNut if we wanted to read mindless Republican brain farts we can Google, tune into Fox News, or just watch the RepubliTards ooze crap on C-Span live.

Today the RepubliTards in Congress worked to create more jobs by pushing their Anti-Abortion legislation, while Issa leaked limited transcripts on the IRS scandal, and the GOP discovered that 50 terrorist attacks were prevented from the NSA not spying on Americans. It makes my eyeballs itch watching these mongoloids rail against Government waste as they waste, waste, waste our tax dollars on shit that does not matter or provide any ROI.

For example, these dumb GOP mother fuckers sucking on the Government tit for a taxpayer funded salary and better health care benefits than anyone else in America - also paid for by the Government, have voted 37 times against socialized medicine but they receive socialized medicine coverage every day as members of Congress.

One GOP Rep. - Dr. Michael Burgess, (R) from Texas, an OBGYN, said today that he opposes abortion because male fetuses masturbate in the womb. Seriously - WTF?

You people are retarded.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: UraTard ()
Date: June 18, 2013 06:41PM

WingNot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> One GOP Rep. - Dr. Michael Burgess, (R) from
> Texas, an OBGYN, said today that he opposes
> abortion because male fetuses masturbate in the
> womb. Seriously - WTF?
>
> You people are retarded.


What he actually said:

Quote

“Watch a sonogram of a 15-week baby, and they have movements that are purposeful,” said Burgess, a former obstetrician-gynecologist. “They stroke their face. If they’re a male baby, they may have their hand between their legs. If they feel pleasure, why is it so hard to believe that they could feel pain?”

Quite a bit different and you're just as much of an idiot for believing all of the crap your own side feeds you.

Here's the deal with immigration for all of you partisan dumbfucks on both sides.

The government needs more people in order to continue to keep the growth pyramid scheme funded. Everything from economic growth to continued ability to grow programs to SS/Medicare, etc. all depend on an ever-expanding population.

The political parties want voters.

Business wants cheap workers and more consumers again relying on the same ever-increasing growth model that the government does.

Everything else is just smoke being blown up your ass.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Amusituded ()
Date: June 18, 2013 08:40PM

Liberal Logic 09 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The simple fact is legalizing them will cost the
> country 100s of billions if not trillions putting
> them into the social welfare systems. They work
> hard because they have too. They arent going to
> do that when they get legalized and figure out
> they can get 40k a year in benefits for doing
> nothing.
>
> That doesnt even address the fact that they will
> get SS and Medicare benefits that they havent been
> paying into which will be a further drain on
> programs barely staying alive right now.

All lies, but keep going. I am amused.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Twats ()
Date: June 18, 2013 08:44PM

Amusituded Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> All lies, but keep going. I am amused.


No, you're lying; therefore, I win.

Derp.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 18, 2013 08:45PM

WingNot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can actually count. There are 5 question marks
> in WingNut's ignorant attempt at shooting down
> Immigration Reform with his "Question #1" post.
> Obsess much WingNut?????
>
> Conclusion: WingNut is not a smart man. He can't
> even fucking count. He has no original material or
> thoughts to contribute to society. He just
> regurgitates half baked barbs from Narnia media
> outlets - the Talking Lyings people.
>
> Observation - WingNut if we wanted to read
> mindless Republican brain farts we can Google,
> tune into Fox News, or just watch the RepubliTards
> ooze crap on C-Span live.
>
> Today the RepubliTards in Congress worked to
> create more jobs by pushing their Anti-Abortion
> legislation, while Issa leaked limited transcripts
> on the IRS scandal, and the GOP discovered that 50
> terrorist attacks were prevented from the NSA not
> spying on Americans. It makes my eyeballs itch
> watching these mongoloids rail against Government
> waste as they waste, waste, waste our tax dollars
> on shit that does not matter or provide any ROI.
>
> For example, these dumb GOP mother fuckers sucking
> on the Government tit for a taxpayer funded salary
> and better health care benefits than anyone else
> in America - also paid for by the Government, have
> voted 37 times against socialized medicine but
> they receive socialized medicine coverage every
> day as members of Congress.
>
> One GOP Rep. - Dr. Michael Burgess, (R) from
> Texas, an OBGYN, said today that he opposes
> abortion because male fetuses masturbate in the
> womb. Seriously - WTF?
>
> You people are retarded.

Nice segue from the issue of immigration to the unrelated topics of abortion and the IRS. Your mind must be pretty muddied or you are used to dealing with the distracted.

Now care to explain to the class how legalizing all of these border jumpers is something that will help the economy?

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNot ()
Date: June 18, 2013 10:30PM

Class - WingNut is an ethnocentric fool. He doesn't represent America. He represents ignorance and is the poster boy for the GOP fallacy of America.

Class - you represent the people that work by generator lights after work hours on job sites across America when all the white workers have gone home. You get shit done. And you send money home to pay for shit. Catch you stealing though and your ass is dirt.


Class - you are people who actually work for a living and you deserve to proud.

Class - those folks that are paying WingNut's salary and benefits so he can be the bigoted fool that he is are tax payers. He is the fool.

WingNut can work his lilly white ass off every day and no matter how hard he tries, he will never be as good as you.

FACTS BRO! WingNut is a HO!

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: CNN says ()
Date: June 18, 2013 10:37PM

WingNot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Class - WingNut is an ethnocentric fool. He
> doesn't represent America. He represents ignorance
> and is the poster boy for the GOP fallacy of
> America.
>
> blah blah blah
>
> nonsense
>
> blah blah blah



"62% of those questioned in the survey say that border security should be the main focus U.S. immigration policy, with 36% saying that creating an eventual path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants should be the top priority."

"Independents answered border security by a 65-33 margin."

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Liberal Logic 09 ()
Date: June 18, 2013 11:02PM

Amusituded Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Liberal Logic 09 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The simple fact is legalizing them will cost
> the
> > country 100s of billions if not trillions
> putting
> > them into the social welfare systems. They
> work
> > hard because they have too. They arent going
> to
> > do that when they get legalized and figure out
> > they can get 40k a year in benefits for doing
> > nothing.
> >
> > That doesnt even address the fact that they
> will
> > get SS and Medicare benefits that they havent
> been
> > paying into which will be a further drain on
> > programs barely staying alive right now.
>
> All lies, but keep going. I am amused.

Youve convinced me with that well thought out intellectual statement.

Please tell me how people working under the table are paying into government programs, I could use a good laugh.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 19, 2013 06:03AM

WingNot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Class - WingNut is an ethnocentric fool. He
> doesn't represent America. He represents ignorance
> and is the poster boy for the GOP fallacy of
> America.
>
> Class - you represent the people that work by
> generator lights after work hours on job sites
> across America when all the white workers have
> gone home. You get shit done. And you send money
> home to pay for shit. Catch you stealing though
> and your ass is dirt.
>
>
> Class - you are people who actually work for a
> living and you deserve to proud.
>
> Class - those folks that are paying WingNut's
> salary and benefits so he can be the bigoted fool
> that he is are tax payers. He is the fool.
>
> WingNut can work his lilly white ass off every day
> and no matter how hard he tries, he will never be
> as good as you.
>
> FACTS BRO! WingNut is a HO!

Sorry Chumpy, but I'm a guy who has to stroke a check to the IRS every year, unlike those who get rebates and returns.

I know it's hard to answer the questions at hand and it's easier to accuse and dismiss any idea you dislike as racist.

Good luck in the world you are building for yourself.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Lloydster ()
Date: June 19, 2013 10:25AM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Proponents claim that LEGALIZING immigrants who
> are currently undocumented will
> "bring them out of the shadows" and "create
> taxpayers".
>
> Is this really what will happen?

Yes

>
> If I am an illegal laborer making $10 an hour for
> some pick and shovel work and being paid as a day
> laborer or subcontractor, what will motivate me to
> pay taxes?

Because it's the right thing to do, and it would be your patriotic duty
>
>
> If I become legal, does this mean I can
> automatically demand a higher wage?
No more than being legal
>
> If 11 million people become legal, does this mean
> there is automatically room in the market place
> for higher wages and payroll jobs that require
> contributions to FICA?
Equates being legal to higher wages and payroll jobs that require contributions to FICA. If the answer to question 3 is false then...
>
> If 11 million people are legalized and demand a
> higher wage, will this not damage the cost
> effectiveness of these workers and create a demand
> for NEW ILLEGAL WORKERS, who are willing to work
> under the table for a lower wage?
Again, question is based upon as assumed premise
>
> The Underground Economy is big and part of our
> culture. People legal and illegal work under the
> table to avoid the Taxman and cut costs.
>
> If granted amnesty, will illegal aliens really be
> incentivized to follow rules that many Americans
> are already not following?
You are wrong

I could be wrong but I'm right 99% of the time

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 19, 2013 04:47PM

I didn't think anyone could really answer this question.

Thanks for proving my point and proving your gullibility and ignorance.


Lloydster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Proponents claim that LEGALIZING immigrants who
> > are currently undocumented will
> > "bring them out of the shadows" and "create
> > taxpayers".
> >
> > Is this really what will happen?
>
> Yes
>
> >
> > If I am an illegal laborer making $10 an hour
> for
> > some pick and shovel work and being paid as a
> day
> > laborer or subcontractor, what will motivate me
> to
> > pay taxes?
>
> Because it's the right thing to do, and it
> would be your patriotic duty

> >
> >
> > If I become legal, does this mean I can
> > automatically demand a higher wage?
> No more than being legal
> >
> > If 11 million people become legal, does this
> mean
> > there is automatically room in the market place
> > for higher wages and payroll jobs that require
> > contributions to FICA?
> Equates being legal to higher wages and payroll
> jobs that require contributions to FICA. If the
> answer to question 3 is false then...

> >
> > If 11 million people are legalized and demand a
> > higher wage, will this not damage the cost
> > effectiveness of these workers and create a
> demand
> > for NEW ILLEGAL WORKERS, who are willing to
> work
> > under the table for a lower wage?
> Again, question is based upon as assumed
> premise

> >
> > The Underground Economy is big and part of our
> > culture. People legal and illegal work under
> the
> > table to avoid the Taxman and cut costs.
> >
> > If granted amnesty, will illegal aliens really
> be
> > incentivized to follow rules that many
> Americans
> > are already not following?
> You are wrong

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 21, 2013 11:47AM

OK class, I understand some of you have had some trouble with this, so we wil return to it in hopes we can make a better understanding.


We'll use this scenario-



Fred is an illegal alien from Lapland. He works for Jerry, a fellow Laplander who runs a landscaping business in Fairfax County.

Jerry pays Fred as an independent contractor. $14 an hour.

Fred doesn't file taxes, as he uses a fake name and an SSN he guessed at by using the first three digits of someone elses.

Fred doesn't contribute anything to FICA or even file taxes, he is working under a false name.

Fred understands that eventually he will have to leave this job but that is OK because he has many other friends in the Laplandic community who may be able to employ him.

Fred is suddenly made legal.

Does Fred continue to work at $14 an hour but now start to pay taxes and file every year? Can he afford it? He only makes $14 an hour.

Does Jerry decide to take Fred on as a payroll employee? Jerry has been saving a lot of money using Fred as a contractor and this is sure to complicate things.

If Fred demands a raise because of his new legal status, what is stopping Jerry from firing Fred and employing someone else from the county's large Laplandic community? Maybe another illegal....



Hey I'm just asking. I just don't see it working so well. I just smell a huge ethnic pander and vote grab going on, little else.

Anyway, I'm fucking gone for the weekend. Hash it out, show your work and spell out your answers. I'll grade it Monday or Tuesday.

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Liberal Logic 09 ()
Date: June 21, 2013 12:42PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Fred is an illegal alien from Lapland. He works
> for Jerry, a fellow Laplander who runs a
> landscaping business in Fairfax County.
>
> Jerry pays Fred as an independent contractor. $14
> an hour.
>
> Fred doesn't file taxes, as he uses a fake name
> and an SSN he guessed at by using the first three
> digits of someone elses.
>
> Fred doesn't contribute anything to FICA or even
> file taxes, he is working under a false name.
>
> Fred understands that eventually he will have to
> leave this job but that is OK because he has many
> other friends in the Laplandic community who may
> be able to employ him.
>
> Fred is suddenly made legal.
>
> Does Fred continue to work at $14 an hour but now
> start to pay taxes and file every year? Can he
> afford it? He only makes $14 an hour.
>
> Does Jerry decide to take Fred on as a payroll
> employee? Jerry has been saving a lot of money
> using Fred as a contractor and this is sure to
> complicate things.
>
> If Fred demands a raise because of his new legal
> status, what is stopping Jerry from firing Fred
> and employing someone else from the county's large
> Laplandic community? Maybe another illegal....
>
>
>
> Hey I'm just asking. I just don't see it working
> so well. I just smell a huge ethnic pander and
> vote grab going on, little else.
>
> Anyway, I'm fucking gone for the weekend. Hash it
> out, show your work and spell out your answers.
> I'll grade it Monday or Tuesday.


More than likely Fred would be smart enough to realize legalizing his job would absolutely screw him. Fred would apply for government benefits while working for 14 dollars under the table. If the employers insisted on reporting the job Fred would just quit and go find someone else to work under the table for or start enjoying his new life of government assistance

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Libby Tard ()
Date: June 21, 2013 01:03PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...
> Does Jerry decide to take Fred on as a payroll
> employee? Jerry has been saving a lot of money
> using Fred as a contractor and this is sure to
> complicate things.
>
> If Fred demands a raise because of his new legal
> status, what is stopping Jerry from firing Fred
> and employing someone else from the county's large
> Laplandic community? Maybe another illegal....
>


And will Libby whine when the cost for her lawn and maid service goes up by 25%?

And when Fred and his family and some friends finally scrape together enough money to 'come out of the shadows' and buy the house next door?

(Hint: Obviously so.)

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Date: June 21, 2013 01:05PM

Liberal Logic 09 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Fred is an illegal alien from Lapland. He works
> > for Jerry, a fellow Laplander who runs a
> > landscaping business in Fairfax County.
> >
> > Jerry pays Fred as an independent contractor.
> $14
> > an hour.
> >
> > Fred doesn't file taxes, as he uses a fake name
> > and an SSN he guessed at by using the first
> three
> > digits of someone elses.
> >
> > Fred doesn't contribute anything to FICA or
> even
> > file taxes, he is working under a false name.
> >
> > Fred understands that eventually he will have
> to
> > leave this job but that is OK because he has
> many
> > other friends in the Laplandic community who
> may
> > be able to employ him.
> >
> > Fred is suddenly made legal.
> >
> > Does Fred continue to work at $14 an hour but
> now
> > start to pay taxes and file every year? Can he
> > afford it? He only makes $14 an hour.
> >
> > Does Jerry decide to take Fred on as a payroll
> > employee? Jerry has been saving a lot of money
> > using Fred as a contractor and this is sure to
> > complicate things.
> >
> > If Fred demands a raise because of his new
> legal
> > status, what is stopping Jerry from firing Fred
> > and employing someone else from the county's
> large
> > Laplandic community? Maybe another illegal....
> >
> >
> >
> > Hey I'm just asking. I just don't see it
> working
> > so well. I just smell a huge ethnic pander and
> > vote grab going on, little else.
> >
> > Anyway, I'm fucking gone for the weekend. Hash
> it
> > out, show your work and spell out your answers.
> > I'll grade it Monday or Tuesday.
>
>
> More than likely Fred would be smart enough to
> realize legalizing his job would absolutely screw
> him. Fred would apply for government benefits
> while working for 14 dollars under the table. If
> the employers insisted on reporting the job Fred
> would just quit and go find someone else to work
> under the table for or start enjoying his new life
> of government assistance

Yes, because "government benefits" for able-bodied males are just there for the asking & $14/hr. under-the-table jobs are a dime-a-dozen, right?

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Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Date: June 21, 2013 01:06PM

Libby Tard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...
> > Does Jerry decide to take Fred on as a payroll
> > employee? Jerry has been saving a lot of money
> > using Fred as a contractor and this is sure to
> > complicate things.
> >
> > If Fred demands a raise because of his new
> legal
> > status, what is stopping Jerry from firing Fred
> > and employing someone else from the county's
> large
> > Laplandic community? Maybe another illegal....
> >
>
> And will Libby whine when the cost for her lawn
> and maid service goes up by 25%?

Sure, because suppliers ALWAYS set the market price, right?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Econ for Libtards 101 ()
Date: June 21, 2013 01:12PM

Conservative Illogic 101 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Libby Tard Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > WingNut Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > ...
> > > Does Jerry decide to take Fred on as a
> payroll
> > > employee? Jerry has been saving a lot of
> money
> > > using Fred as a contractor and this is sure
> to
> > > complicate things.
> > >
> > > If Fred demands a raise because of his new
> > legal
> > > status, what is stopping Jerry from firing
> Fred
> > > and employing someone else from the county's
> > large
> > > Laplandic community? Maybe another
> illegal....
> > >
> >
> > And will Libby whine when the cost for her lawn
> > and maid service goes up by 25%?
>
> Sure, because suppliers ALWAYS set the market
> price, right?


When they control the supply of a desired product/service for which there are no/few alternatives, typically so.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: June 21, 2013 01:14PM

While immigration reformers may not want to admit it, there is something seriously unfair about the immigration reform process. For many, probably most, of those who are here illegally, violating immigration laws was just the first of a series of criminal acts. ID theft and tax fraud are things Americans are regularly prosecuted for every day. To make immigration reform work we are going to have to forgive a number of criminal acts, not just the immigration violations. This means that those who entered, stayed or worked in this country illegally are not just going to be treated the same as U.S. citizens under reform; They are going to be treated better.

The usual response to this is that the criminal acts were not done maliciously and nobody was hurt but the government. However I suspect there are a number of people who have suffered financial harm and hassles from having their social security numbers appropriated by people here illegally.

The question then is "Is immigration reform worth it"?

FWIw this isn't unprecedented. The U.S. has done this from time to time in the past, with the biggest example being the pardons extended to most former Confederates after the Civil War.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Date: June 21, 2013 01:28PM

Econ for Libtards 101 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Conservative Illogic 101 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Libby Tard Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > WingNut Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > ...
> > > > Does Jerry decide to take Fred on as a
> > payroll
> > > > employee? Jerry has been saving a lot of
> > money
> > > > using Fred as a contractor and this is sure
> > to
> > > > complicate things.
> > > >
> > > > If Fred demands a raise because of his new
> > > legal
> > > > status, what is stopping Jerry from firing
> > Fred
> > > > and employing someone else from the
> county's
> > > large
> > > > Laplandic community? Maybe another
> > illegal....
> > > >
> > >
> > > And will Libby whine when the cost for her
> lawn
> > > and maid service goes up by 25%?
> >
> > Sure, because suppliers ALWAYS set the market
> > price, right?
>
>
> When they control the supply of a desired
> product/service for which there are no/few
> alternatives, typically so.

You mean like products like lawn and maid service?

Yeah, not so much.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Econ for Libtards 101 ()
Date: June 21, 2013 01:34PM

Conservative Illogic 101 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> You mean like products like lawn and maid
> service?
>
> Yeah, not so much.


Yeah, cause there are lots of white Fairfax residents who will do lawn, maid, tree, roofing, and other such jobs for $8/hour.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Date: June 21, 2013 01:36PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The question then is "Is immigration reform worth
> it"?

Well, what's the alternative? Serious, that should we do instead of immigration the proposed reform?

Maintain the status quo? Round 'em up & deport 'em? "Self-deportation"?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Raises Hand ()
Date: June 21, 2013 01:49PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The usual response to this is that the criminal
> acts were not done maliciously and nobody was hurt
> but the government. However I suspect there are a
> number of people who have suffered financial harm
> and hassles from having their social security
> numbers appropriated by people here illegally.
>


I'm one of them. Somebody used my info to 'document' themselves to work at a moving company in CA. Didn't know until I got a W2 at the end of the year from a place where I'd never worked. Major pain in the ass getting all of that straightened out and I'm still not sure that I have completely.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Liberal Logic 09 ()
Date: June 22, 2013 02:02AM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While immigration reformers may not want to admit
> it, there is something seriously unfair about the
> immigration reform process. For many, probably
> most, of those who are here illegally, violating
> immigration laws was just the first of a series of
> criminal acts. ID theft and tax fraud are things
> Americans are regularly prosecuted for every day.
> To make immigration reform work we are going to
> have to forgive a number of criminal acts, not
> just the immigration violations. This means that
> those who entered, stayed or worked in this
> country illegally are not just going to be treated
> the same as U.S. citizens under reform; They are
> going to be treated better.
>
> The usual response to this is that the criminal
> acts were not done maliciously and nobody was hurt
> but the government. However I suspect there are a
> number of people who have suffered financial harm
> and hassles from having their social security
> numbers appropriated by people here illegally.
>
> The question then is "Is immigration reform worth
> it"?
>
> FWIw this isn't unprecedented. The U.S. has done
> this from time to time in the past, with the
> biggest example being the pardons extended to most
> former Confederates after the Civil War.


Exactly. Theres plenty of people who commit crimes that werent malicious yet they get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Numerous criminal acts are being excused by doing this simply because they arent citizens which like you said does give them free pass which is insane.

This has been done before and probably will be done again.

Heres the problem though. This fixes nothing. If we dont get the boarder under control or at least manageable first were going to just keep cheapening being a citizen over and over and theres no point in even having citizenship.

IF the boarder was more manageable and we got serious about internal immigration enforcement an argument can be made for doing it one last time and then cracking down from that point on. However we dont seem to be serious at all about fixing the problem so theres no point it doing it this time since 20 years from now well be doing the same thing again.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 26, 2013 10:27AM

I cannot believe how misguided and blind Congress and libtards are...


*Illegals are NOT going to want to pay taxes, withholding. They are making little as is already.

*Employers of illegals are not going to give raises to newly legalized workers or enjoy any benefits of having to withhold taxes. Instead they will seek workers who they can afford, probably more illegals.

*Illegals have little incentive to "come clean", they are very rarely being deported anyway. Look at the cases of Obama's aunt and uncle. Times those by a million or three.




OK great!

So it seems to me the typical liberal response is based on the idea that "doing something is better than doing nothing".

So if your brakes are bad, it's obviously time to patch your roof- you're doing "something" right?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: True Blue ()
Date: June 26, 2013 10:49AM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> *Illegals are NOT going to want to pay taxes,
> withholding. They are making little as is
> already.
>
> *Employers of illegals are not going to give
> raises to newly legalized workers or enjoy any
> benefits of having to withhold taxes. Instead they
> will seek workers who they can afford, probably
> more illegals.
>
> *Illegals have little incentive to "come clean",
> they are very rarely being deported anyway. Look
> at the cases of Obama's aunt and uncle. Times
> those by a million or three.

Nutty, you're completely misguided.

Nobody WANTS to pay taxes, Nutty, but we do 'cause it's the law. Remember, too, that outside of withholding, we all pay taxes on the 'honor system'. Some citizens break the law by not paying taxes that they owe. The IRS audits around 1% of taxpayers each year, so what are the chances of being caught, especially if the income is not reported to the IRS or easily traceable?

Most newly-minted citizens are PROUD to pay taxes. Why would these be any different?
Workers have ALWAYS been paid under-the-table, whether undocumented or citizens. If an employer want's to break the law, really, what is there to stop him, until he's caught? That won't ever change, so what's your issue?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 26, 2013 10:56AM

True Blue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Nobody WANTS to pay taxes, Nutty, but we do
> 'cause it's the law. Remember, too, that outside
> of withholding, we all pay taxes on the 'honor
> system'. Some citizens break the law by not
> paying taxes that they owe. The IRS audits around
> 1% of taxpayers each year, so what are the chances
> of being caught, especially if the income is not
> reported to the IRS or easily traceable?


Illegals have proven themselves participants in the black market economy by already being in the country illegally. Of course there are a lot of Americans ducking taxes and working under the table, but I would not be so fast to project your opinions on others.


> Most newly-minted citizens are PROUD to pay taxes.
> Why would these be any different?

You are absolutely fucking crazy, I am done with you and anything else you care to post.


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: True Blue ()
Date: June 26, 2013 11:03AM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Illegals have proven themselves participants
> in the black market economy by already being in
> the country illegally. Of course there are a lot
> of Americans ducking taxes and working under the
> table, but I would not be so fast to project your
> opinions on others.


Translation: I FUCKING HATE SPICS!

> You are absolutely fucking crazy, I am done
> with you and anything else you care to post.


Translation: I cannot refute your logical, well-crafted arguments, so I am going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that you don't exist.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: YE6W4 ()
Date: June 26, 2013 11:11AM

True Blue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Illegals have proven themselves
> participants
> > in the black market economy by already being in
> > the country illegally. Of course there are a
> lot
> > of Americans ducking taxes and working under
> the
> > table, but I would not be so fast to project
> your
> > opinions on others.

>
> Translation: I FUCKING HATE SPICS!
>
> > You are absolutely fucking crazy, I am done
> > with you and anything else you care to
> post.

>
> Translation: I cannot refute your logical,
> well-crafted arguments, so I am going to stick my
> head in the sand and pretend that you don't exist.

such a fag

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: True Blue ()
Date: June 26, 2013 11:19AM

YE6W4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> True Blue Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > WingNut Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Illegals have proven themselves
> > participants
> > > in the black market economy by already being
> in
> > > the country illegally. Of course there are a
> > lot
> > > of Americans ducking taxes and working under
> > the
> > > table, but I would not be so fast to project
> > your
> > > opinions on others.

> >
> > Translation: I FUCKING HATE SPICS!
> >
> > > You are absolutely fucking crazy, I am
> done
> > > with you and anything else you care to
> > post.

> >
> > Translation: I cannot refute your logical,
> > well-crafted arguments, so I am going to stick
> my
> > head in the sand and pretend that you don't
> exist.
>
> such a fag

Do not speak of my friend Nutty in this manner!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 26, 2013 11:39AM

So illegal aliens who are NOT paying taxes, are going to be happy to have smaller paychecks?


And, on their small salary, they are going to be happy to pay a fine of several thousand dollars?

They are not being deported as is, why will they even care?


idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: True Blue ()
Date: June 26, 2013 12:25PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So illegal aliens who are NOT paying taxes, are
> going to be happy to have smaller paychecks?
>
> And, on their small salary, they are going to be
> happy to pay a fine of several thousand dollars?

If they're not happy, they can go back home.

> They are not being deported as is, why will they
> even care?

The real question is: Why do YOU care? How does any of this matter to you?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 26, 2013 01:13PM

True Blue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So illegal aliens who are NOT paying taxes, are
> > going to be happy to have smaller paychecks?
> >
> > And, on their small salary, they are going to
> be
> > happy to pay a fine of several thousand
> dollars?
>
> If they're not happy, they can go back home.
>
> > They are not being deported as is, why will
> they
> > even care?
>
> The real question is: Why do YOU care? How
> does any of this matter to you?
Attachments:
thread-complete.jpg

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Vexxxed ()
Date: June 26, 2013 01:38PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So illegal aliens who are NOT paying taxes, are
> going to be happy to have smaller paychecks?
>
>
> And, on their small salary, they are going to be
> happy to pay a fine of several thousand dollars?
>
> They are not being deported as is, why will they
> even care?


Just think. All the lines that currently form in front of 7-Elevens daily, will move to the IRS building in DC.

I'm pretty sure they are all very excited to start paying taxes and become permanent residents.

The proof being in how hard they've tried to fit in so far.

(as with just about all things in life...follow the money..it's always about the money)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 26, 2013 02:51PM

Vexxxed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So illegal aliens who are NOT paying taxes, are
> > going to be happy to have smaller paychecks?
> >
> >
> > And, on their small salary, they are going to
> be
> > happy to pay a fine of several thousand
> dollars?
> >
> > They are not being deported as is, why will
> they
> > even care?
>
>
> Just think. All the lines that currently form in
> front of 7-Elevens daily, will move to the IRS
> building in DC.
>
> I'm pretty sure they are all very excited to start
> paying taxes and become permanent residents.
>
> The proof being in how hard they've tried to fit
> in so far.
>
> (as with just about all things in life...follow
> the money..it's always about the money)

+1

The whole "make it legal and tax it" line is a myth, particularly when speaking about grey areas where this is little to zero enforcement like illegal aliens and prostitution.

When you have a group that has a penchant for not following the rules, there is really no good way beyond stricter enforcement to ensure compliance. And the shadow economy is way to big for this to be feasible.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2009/1112/americas-shadow-economy-is-bigger-than-you-think-and-growing#comment-49256

Legalizing the undocumented just adds them to the honest taxpayers burden.

Why not make the border more secure as a starting point?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: Vexxxed ()
Date: June 26, 2013 06:09PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why not make the border more secure as a starting
> point?


Dreamer.

Leave my open border country immediately and don't let the non-gate hit you in the ass on the way out.

Btw...anyone that says we can't shut down our borders doesn't recall 9-12-01...or the week that followed.

Ask anyone in the border business and they'll tell you, not even a grasshopper made it into the country that week.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Question #1 About Immigration Reform
Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: June 26, 2013 07:34PM

Vexxxed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why not make the border more secure as a
> starting
> > point?
>
>
> Dreamer.
>
> Leave my open border country immediately and don't
> let the non-gate hit you in the ass on the way
> out.
>
> Btw...anyone that says we can't shut down our
> borders doesn't recall 9-12-01...or the week that
> followed.
>
> Ask anyone in the border business and they'll tell
> you, not even a grasshopper made it into the
> country that week.

Good point, I forgot all about how fucked up secure transportation and borders were in the weeks after the attack.

Options: ReplyQuote


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