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Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: True_Blue ()
Date: June 13, 2013 11:27AM

One of the more important conservative beliefs about Obamacare, running right alongside the certainty that the law is a disaster that will fail in every respect, is the belief that Americans share their antipathy to the law. It certainly is true that the Affordable Care Act has a bad reputation, and the latest poll showing that support for Obamacare has dipped prompted the same wave of conservative gloating that results from every such poll. But looking even an inch beneath the surface reveals a public more frustrated and confused by Obamacare than opposed. Its specific elements poll well, though they’re the least known elements. Four out of ten Americans don’t realize the law hasn’t been struck down. A new poll out shows that the public, by a ten-point margin, trusts Democrats over Republicans on health-care issues. By a 52–34 percent margin, they want Congress to implement or tinker with the law rather than repeal it. The nearly ubiquitous conservative belief that the public shares its passion for repealing Obamacare is a spate of self-delusion.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/06/obamacare-and-conservative-self-delusion.html

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Dopeage ()
Date: June 13, 2013 11:50AM

You dopes are pitiful. You take one marginally related poll measuring some squishy aspect of 'trust' versus overwhelming and growing opposition to Obamacare generally and claim victory. lol

Sorry, it's just going to get worse. Wait until people start to see the real effects next year when the more visible aspects start to kick in. And as more people, particularly more younger, middle and upper-middle class people, start to understand that they're going to have to PAY for all of this for the rest of their lives. Not only for themselves but mostly to subsidize it for all of the poor and older folks.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: BEH ()
Date: June 13, 2013 11:54AM

No, it has to be true, he typed in bold.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: True_Blue ()
Date: June 13, 2013 11:56AM

Dopeage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You dopes are pitiful. You take one marginally
> related poll measuring some squishy aspect of
> 'trust' versus overwhelming and growing opposition
> to Obamacare generally and claim victory. lol
>
> Sorry, it's just going to get worse. Wait until
> people start to see the real effects next year
> when the more visible aspects start to kick in.
> And as more people, particularly more younger,
> middle and upper-middle class people, start to
> understand that they're going to have to PAY for
> all of this for the rest of their lives. Not only
> for themselves but mostly to subsidize it for all
> of the poor and older folks.


Attachments:
De-Nile.jpg

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Just kill yourself ...parasite! ()
Date: June 14, 2013 02:02PM

This trublue loser is probabaly a useless fat, white woman that nobody wants to fuck or a whiney child beating off in their grand parents basement.

Either way, they both are unloved and unwanted just like that half white loser nameed barry obama.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: ^eesh ()
Date: June 14, 2013 02:08PM

or some other Obama lover posted the above rant, to imply racism on the part of Obama opponents by including the racist "half white" language.

"We see through your mask"

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: wrongg ()
Date: June 14, 2013 02:20PM

The hardest hit from a financial perspective will be the young and the healthiest groups. We will all suffer from tertiary cost increases and erosion of care. If the poll you use leads you to believe the people want the law "tinkered with" why are you not here advocating tinkering instead of baiting conservatives? Perhaps because you do not have a clue as to the flaws in the law?

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: True_Blue ()
Date: June 14, 2013 03:11PM

Remember, Friends, that many Americans are unhappy w/Obamacare because it is NOT universal healthcare.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: TLG9p ()
Date: June 14, 2013 03:31PM

True_Blue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Remember, Friends, that many Americans are unhappy
> w/Obamacare because it is NOT universal
> healthcare.


Yeah, an even smaller minority.

Who for the most part don't understand that they'd still be PAYING for it one way or another.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Affordable Care Act ()
Date: June 14, 2013 04:30PM

Its a Republican plan from the Clinton years - so of course its not perfect. Universal care would have been much better but GOP keeps the target moving. Now they are hating the very policy they invented in 'Obamacare'

absurd

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Obamacare sucks ()
Date: June 14, 2013 04:46PM

What's affordable about it?

I lost my healthcare on Jan 1, 2013, after 20 yrs. of excellent coverage.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: I Heart Obamacare: not ()
Date: June 14, 2013 05:01PM

BEH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, it has to be true, he typed in bold.

WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE CREDIBLE AND IRREFUTABLE IF OP HAD TYPED IT IN ALL CAPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Liberal Logic 09 ()
Date: June 14, 2013 06:32PM

Obamacare sucks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's affordable about it?
>
> I lost my healthcare on Jan 1, 2013, after 20 yrs.
> of excellent coverage.


And everyone else is seeing huge premium increases.

Its only affordable if you were already on government assistance. The best part is your now paying more for a lower quality of care.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Young Curmudgeon ()
Date: June 14, 2013 06:41PM

Liberal Logic 09 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its only affordable if you were already on
> government assistance. The best part is your now
> paying more for a lower quality of care.

It's a very good idea implemented very poorly.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: June 14, 2013 07:41PM

Liberal Logic 09 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Obamacare sucks Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What's affordable about it?
> >
> > I lost my healthcare on Jan 1, 2013, after 20
> yrs.
> > of excellent coverage.
>
>
> And everyone else is seeing huge premium
> increases.
>

Rates have been rising well over the rate of inflation for over a decade, but many didn't notice because their employers were absorbing the increase.

And yes Obamacare as written is a lousy, but it was an improvement over what was there before. As I've been saying for several years, Don't repeal-Replace.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Liberal Logic 09 ()
Date: June 14, 2013 08:05PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Rates have been rising well over the rate of
> inflation for over a decade, but many didn't
> notice because their employers were absorbing the
> increase.

Theres truth to that, the fact that this jacks up the rates so much they wont anymore or puts the burden back on the individual however kind of says enough.

> And yes Obamacare as written is a lousy, but it
> was an improvement over what was there before. As
> I've been saying for several years, Don't
> repeal-Replace.

Its VERY debatable if theres any overall improvement from it. There were parts that werent bad and had some common sense, but it was more change for the sake of change.

It could certainly be gone through and have the absurd stuff taken out, but considering its 10k pages it would probably be easier to start fresh. Not to mention when youre trying to fix it the Dems will probably only want to give so much as the White House seems to view everything as us vs them and plays politics with everything. At the very least though if were going to go the fix route then implementation needs to be suspended until thats complete instead of trying to fix it on the fly.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: arrogant pricks ()
Date: June 15, 2013 04:31AM

Liberal Logic 09 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Obamacare sucks Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What's affordable about it?
> >
> > I lost my healthcare on Jan 1, 2013, after 20
> yrs.
> > of excellent coverage.


> And everyone else is seeing huge premium
> increases.

> Its only affordable if you were already on
> government assistance.

I assume the defenders of this bullshit are working for the federal government, or on some form of government assistance... or already retired.

And, wtf, none of those people will suddenly find themselves searching for insurance for their families, that now, thanks to Obama, they can't afford.

Add a medical condition to the mix, and we're talking thousands and thousands and thousands..... oh, wait, did the morons think that pre-existing conditions were going to be covered for "FREE", like freaking birth control pills?

Fuck them...

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: repbIdea ()
Date: June 15, 2013 09:34AM

The idea that all Americans should purchase health insurance so that the rest of us don't have to pay up when the uninsured get sick has its origins in a 1989 brief ("Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans,") by the conservative think tank called the Heritage Foundation. In fact, several Republican leaders, including presidential nominee Mitt Romney himself, once embraced the idea. Romney famously spearheaded such a mandate in Massachusetts when he was governor there. Now, of course, the concept is being compared to Stalinist dictate.

Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans (conservative Haritage Foundation http://www.heritage.org/research/lecture/assuring-affordable-health-care-for-all-americans

GOP doesnt hate 'Obamacare' they invented 'Obamacare' (some like Mitt Romney even passed it as law) - they hate Obama. That or they are just obligated to play out the theater that is US politics...

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Vexxxed ()
Date: June 15, 2013 10:38AM

You seemed to have missed the part where Romneycare is handled at the state level whereas Obamacare will dictate to the entire country and it's territories from Washington DC....by way of the IRS.

Removing one more way of making each state unique. We are rapidly becoming the United State of America.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: wrongg ()
Date: June 15, 2013 10:55AM

So a terrible law was passed by a democrat house and senate signed by a democrat president without a single republican vote, and some of you are setting up blame for this debacle on some thinktank?

I don't think that thing will fly. But you kids crack me up. Really.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Free stuffz ain't free ()
Date: June 15, 2013 12:18PM

Vexxxed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You seemed to have missed the part where
> Romneycare is handled at the state level whereas
> Obamacare will dictate to the entire country and
> it's territories from Washington DC....by way of
> the IRS.
>
> Removing one more way of making each state unique.
> We are rapidly becoming the United State of
> America.

Right. And a big part of why it works at that level are Federal Medicare/Medicaid payments to the state. Without that, somebody needs to make up that difference. That somebody is us.

What most of these younger Obamaphiles don't yet appreciate is that they are the ones who will be bearing the burden of the cost for both this as well as the rest of the entitlements. I hope that providing subsidized health care to lower income and older folks is worth a LOT to them because they're going to be paying a large chunk of their income toward that for the rest of their lives.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: June 15, 2013 12:30PM

Conservatives are like chickens with their heads cut off right now. They have left themselves with no path. Thats what the politics of obstruction does to a national party. It degrades it to irrelevancy and paralyzes it with indifference and impotence. A party in that state cannot govern and must be forced to reform through losses at the ballot box.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Gerrybabbler ()
Date: June 15, 2013 12:38PM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Conservatives are like chickens with their heads
> cut off right now. They have left themselves with
> no path. Thats what the politics of obstruction
> does to a national party. It degrades it to
> irrelevancy and paralyzes it with indifference and
> impotence. A party in that state cannot govern and
> must be forced to reform through losses at the
> ballot box.


More Gerrybabble. When he knows that the facts of a topic are against his Fantasyland Progressive fairytale, he comes in with his typical off-point rambling. lol

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: June 15, 2013 01:21PM

Free stuffz ain't free Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vexxxed Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You seemed to have missed the part where
> > Romneycare is handled at the state level
> whereas
> > Obamacare will dictate to the entire country
> and
> > it's territories from Washington DC....by way
> of
> > the IRS.
> >
> > Removing one more way of making each state
> unique.
> > We are rapidly becoming the United State of
> > America.
>
> Right. And a big part of why it works at that
> level are Federal Medicare/Medicaid payments to
> the state. Without that, somebody needs to make
> up that difference. That somebody is us.
>
> What most of these younger Obamaphiles don't yet
> appreciate is that they are the ones who will be
> bearing the burden of the cost for both this as
> well as the rest of the entitlements. I hope that
> providing subsidized health care to lower income
> and older folks is worth a LOT to them because
> they're going to be paying a large chunk of their
> income toward that for the rest of their lives.


The true burden on future generations and the current economy is the private for profit insurance based health care system that is exponentially becoming more expensive. You act like everything is hunky dory and current health care costs cost the government the industry or the country as whole nothing. You people are fucking morons to say the least and out right deceptive fools with a tendency to lie at the worst.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: stupid racist libtards ()
Date: June 15, 2013 01:30PM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Free stuffz ain't free Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Vexxxed Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > You seemed to have missed the part where
> > > Romneycare is handled at the state level
> > whereas
> > > Obamacare will dictate to the entire country
> > and
> > > it's territories from Washington DC....by way
> > of
> > > the IRS.
> > >
> > > Removing one more way of making each state
> > unique.
> > > We are rapidly becoming the United State of
> > > America.
> >
> > Right. And a big part of why it works at that
> > level are Federal Medicare/Medicaid payments to
> > the state. Without that, somebody needs to
> make
> > up that difference. That somebody is us.
> >
> > What most of these younger Obamaphiles don't
> yet
> > appreciate is that they are the ones who will
> be
> > bearing the burden of the cost for both this as
> > well as the rest of the entitlements. I hope
> that
> > providing subsidized health care to lower
> income
> > and older folks is worth a LOT to them because
> > they're going to be paying a large chunk of
> their
> > income toward that for the rest of their lives.
>
>
> The true burden on future generations and the
> current economy is the private for profit
> insurance based health care system that is
> exponentially becoming more expensive. You act
> like everything is hunky dory and current health
> care costs cost the government the industry or the
> country as whole nothing. You people are fucking
> morons to say the least and out right deceptive
> fools with a tendency to lie at the worst.

The Healthcare Commissions Act of 2009 is seen by some as an amnesty law for crimes committed in the Obamacare sector by retroactively rewriting the Medicaid Act and by abolishing transfer payments, effectively making it impossible for senior citizens to challenge social welfare.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Great Plan ()
Date: June 15, 2013 01:39PM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The true burden on future generations and the
> current economy is the private for profit
> insurance based health care system that is
> exponentially becoming more expensive. You act
> like everything is hunky dory and current health
> care costs cost the government the industry or the
> country as whole nothing. You people are fucking
> morons to say the least and out right deceptive
> fools with a tendency to lie at the worst.


Obamacare does nothing to reduce cost. In fact, to the contrary. Now, you simply have the insurance companies operating on a cost-plus basis, with costs to the medical industry increased which also will be passed through, plus added overhead from increased government involvement.

Great plan! lol

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Vexxxed ()
Date: June 15, 2013 01:58PM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The true burden on future generations and the
> current economy is the private for profit
> insurance based health care system that is
> exponentially becoming more expensive. You act
> like everything is hunky dory and current health
> care costs cost the government the industry or the
> country as whole nothing. You people are fucking
> morons to say the least and out right deceptive
> fools with a tendency to lie at the worst.

Way to bring ideological hatred to the table, Gerry.

So how will Obamacare fix all the problems you say we had prior to it's implementation?

See if you can explain your position without berating half of the citizens in this country.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: left turn clyde ()
Date: June 15, 2013 02:05PM

Obamacare is the only negative thing that has come out of this presidency. Obama has done everything else very well. I know Hillary would have done better but thank God she will most likely be back in the white house in 2016.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: June 15, 2013 04:45PM

Great Plan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > The true burden on future generations and the
> > current economy is the private for profit
> > insurance based health care system that is
> > exponentially becoming more expensive. You act
> > like everything is hunky dory and current
> health
> > care costs cost the government the industry or
> the
> > country as whole nothing. You people are
> fucking
> > morons to say the least and out right deceptive
> > fools with a tendency to lie at the worst.
>
>
> Obamacare does nothing to reduce cost. In fact,
> to the contrary. Now, you simply have the
> insurance companies operating on a cost-plus
> basis, with costs to the medical industry
> increased which also will be passed through, plus
> added overhead from increased government
> involvement.
>
> Great plan! lol


Yeah it wasn't the greatest plan, you are right. But this is all we could get you corrupt sons of bitches to agree to. The Republican solution construct of the heritage foundation and Mitt Romney. Now you say what you forced through compromise and your own plan won't work. That's fine, we'll take you fuckers down step by step. We introduced regulation. You better hope it works because we're moving on to single payer.

You think you're smart playing checkers on a chess board.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Liberal Logic 09 ()
Date: June 15, 2013 06:27PM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Yeah it wasn't the greatest plan, you are right.
> But this is all we could get you corrupt sons of
> bitches to agree to. The Republican solution
> construct of the heritage foundation and Mitt
> Romney. Now you say what you forced through
> compromise and your own plan won't work. That's
> fine, we'll take you fuckers down step by step. We
> introduced regulation. You better hope it works
> because we're moving on to single payer.
>
> You think you're smart playing checkers on a chess
> board.

So this was all they could get the GOP to agree too yet it passed without any GOP votes?

Sorry Gerry they could have gotten anything they wanted and did get anything they wanted not 1 single member of the GOP voted for the bill. There was no agreeing to anything it was what the Dems wanted

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Young Curmudgeon ()
Date: June 15, 2013 08:26PM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah it wasn't the greatest plan, you are right.
> But this is all we could get you corrupt sons of
> bitches to agree to. The Republican solution
> construct of the heritage foundation and Mitt
> Romney. Now you say what you forced through
> compromise and your own plan won't work. That's
> fine, we'll take you fuckers down step by step. We
> introduced regulation. You better hope it works
> because we're moving on to single payer.

Let's tell the truth, Gerry. Not a single Republican voted for the bill. Even Southern Democrats voted against it. It's a fine idea, but the bill is very heavy handed. I know a guy who's dividing his business so he doesn't have to pay the bill. Also, consider how the bill screws small business.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: June 16, 2013 02:13AM

This was the product of over a year of bipartisan committee proceedings. One of the most debated pieces of legislation in history. Just because Republicans are losers doesn't mean the Democrats didn't do everything possible for them including vote on what was supposed to be their solution.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2013 02:13AM by Gerrymanderer2.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Truer_ than Blue ()
Date: June 16, 2013 02:42AM


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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: June 16, 2013 04:30AM

Oh Republicans, the poor persecuted Republicans. They got scrutiny from the IRS form fraudulently applying for tax exemption as non political. They lie and cheat and attempt tax evasion and then claim they are victims when the IRS gets suspicious.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Factico ()
Date: June 17, 2013 09:34AM

You are 1000 times more likely to be killed by Cancer or Heart disease than by a terrorist.

Last year around 267 Americans were killed by terrorists. We spent BILLIONS on the effort to stop terrorists.

Here in the US

Number of Americans killed:
Heart disease: 597,689

Cancer: 574,743
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476
Alzheimer's disease: 83,494
Diabetes: 69,071
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476
Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097

How much have we spent to save American lives from Heart disease or Cancer?
Attachments:
medic.jpg

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: True_Blue ()
Date: June 17, 2013 09:54AM

Under Obamacare, my health insurance rates have not increase appreciably (no more than in the past decade).

Under Obamacare, my coverage has not been degraded.

I <3 Obamacare!

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Affordable ()
Date: June 17, 2013 10:05AM

My care is better under Obamacare also. Plus I can now keep my daughter on my policy.

Let's face it, without Obamacare insurance companies would be ripping us off left and right. Insurance companies were out of control in 2005-2008 and they were getting worse.

The Affordable Healthcare Act had to happen. I'm not for forcing people to buy health insurance but there were a lot of free riders before Obamacare.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: WOW !! the libs are desparate ()
Date: June 17, 2013 10:35AM

You assholes do know that Health and Human services (HHS) is using billions of tax payer dollars to promote Obongo care because it is sooo unpopular, right?

Well, if you dont....you are an uninformed idiot and you should post your opinions.

If you dont believe me you are an even bigger idiot....Because the HHS openly admitted this fact.

Hope you dont die a painful death.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Obongo-A-GoGo!!! ()
Date: June 17, 2013 10:46AM

WOW !! the libs are desparate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You assholes do know that Health and Human
> services (HHS) is using billions of tax payer
> dollars to promote Obongo care because it is sooo
> unpopular, right?
>
> Well, if you dont....you are an uninformed idiot
> and you should post your opinions.
>
> If you dont believe me you are an even bigger
> idiot....Because the HHS openly admitted this
> fact.
>
> Hope you dont die a painful death.



Attachments:
Happy_Anger.jpg

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Factico ()
Date: June 17, 2013 10:52AM

And now for the real facts that republicans don't want you to hear -


The big pieces of the Affordable Care Act will take effect in 2014, but many parts of Obamacare are already in place.

The Affordable Care Act:

Prohibits individual and group health plans from placing lifetime limits on the dollar value of coverage.

Back in 2011 I got a call from a lady who was in big trouble because she had enrolled in a health insurance plan with a $100,000 coverage limit. Here is part of what I wrote in my post.

If Jane’s medical bills exceed $100,000, she will no longer have health insurance. She wanted me to help her get new coverage. Unfortunately for Jane, she is probably un-insurable with her recent medical history and her pre-existing heart condition. I gave Jane a list of things she can do to see if she can get health insurance – but I think she is in big trouble.

Prohibits rescinding coverage except in cases of fraud.

In California a few years ago, a court case showed how insurance companies had collected premiums for years and then cancelled policies when people got sick. There was one thirty-something woman who was diagnosed with cervical cancer who had her health insurance policy “recinded”. Her insurance company looked back at her medical records from the time she was in high school and found she had been treated for a yeast infection when she was in her teens. The insurance company said that yeast infection might have been the cause of her cancer, and she had not reported this on her application for coverage -so they canceled her policy.

Prohibits denying children coverage based on pre-existing medical conditions or from including pre-existing condition exclusions for children.

Small company health insurance plans could cover the parents but deny coverage for a child with diabetes or other illnesses. The parents would need to find a job with a large employer so their child could get health insurance. Otherwise, they had no way to get health insurance for their child.

Extends dependent coverage for adult children up to age 26 for all individual and group policies.

About half of all states already had this law on the books, but now all companies in all states must allow their employees’ adult children to stay on their plan. My friend’s son took advantage of this after he finished college and got a job that offered no health insurance. He was 25 years old and got sick – but he was covered by his parents’ health insurance so he got the medical care he needed. His mother and father feel very lucky to have a healthy son and their life savings intact.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: True_Blue ()
Date: June 17, 2013 10:53AM

WOW !! the libs are desparate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...Health and Human services (HHS) is using
> billions of tax payer dollars to
> promote [Obamacare]...

Wrong-o there, Marylou!

HHS: Nothing improper about Sebelius’s ObamaCare fundraising

The Health and Human Services Department (HHS) says there's nothing illegal or improper about soliciting donations to help promote President Obama's healthcare law.

Republicans leapt at the news that HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius has been asking industry and community groups to donate to Enroll America, an outside organization created to promote the health law and encourage people to enroll in its new coverage options.

HHS spokesman Jason Young said the fundraising push serves the department's basic goals.

"Part of our mission is to help uninsured Americans take advantage of new affordable, high quality insurance options that are coming, thanks to the health law," he said. "For the last several months the Secretary has been working with a full range of stakeholders who share in the mission of getting Americans the help they need and deserve."

Young said Sebelius has not made any fundraising requests to "entities regulated by HHS."

The Washington Post first reported Friday that Sebelius has made fundraising calls to "health industry executives, community organizations and church groups" on Enroll America's behalf. Congressional Republicans have refused to provide additional funding to implement the healthcare law.

"We have always worked with outside groups, and the efforts now ramping up are just one more part of that work," Young said.

Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.) likened the fundraising to the Iran-Contra scandal, saying it's illegal to raise money for outside groups that are essentially arms of the government.

Young pointed to a section of the Public Health Service Act that specifically allows the HHS secretary to work with outside organizations.

"The Secretary is authorized to support by grant or contract (and to encourage others to support) private nonprofit entities working in health information and health promotion, preventive health services, and education in the appropriate use of health care," the law states.

"The fact that Congress won't appropriate more money for Obamacare isn't a defense, because the precise point of the Anti-Deficiency Act is that if Congress won't appropriate the money, the executive branch is not allowed to raise funds twisting arms in the private sector," the spokesman said.

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/299191-hhs-defends-sebelius-obamacare-fundraising#ixzz2WU8kyMGj
Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Welcome to Reality ()
Date: June 17, 2013 11:00AM

Affordable Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My care is better under Obamacare also. Plus I
> can now keep my daughter on my policy.
>
> Let's face it, without Obamacare insurance
> companies would be ripping us off left and right.
> Insurance companies were out of control in
> 2005-2008 and they were getting worse.
>
> The Affordable Healthcare Act had to happen. I'm
> not for forcing people to buy health insurance but
> there were a lot of free riders before Obamacare.


Obamacare does virtually nothing to affect insurance or healthcare costs, a point conceded by the designers and proponents of the bill. All that it did was to come up with a way to extract money from people to pay for them. It does little to nothing to "control" the insurance companies other than ensuring them 100 million+ customers who are mandated by law to buy their product, with government subsidies paid to them for those who can't pay directly, and guaranteed profit levels calculated on a cost-plus basis.

It's done nothing to control costs. Costs have increased more after passage of the law due primarily to the imposition of additional coverage for everyone whether wanted or not.

Obamacare will do little to nothing to reduce the number of "free riders." Even using the administration's own estimates, there are expected to be 30+ million still "free riding." And the largest portion of those in that group who now will be covered are those who will be significantly subsidized. So the only difference is that you will now pay directly to insure them versus indirectly.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Weasel Words ()
Date: June 17, 2013 11:09AM

True_Blue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wrong-o there, Marylou!
>
> HHS: Nothing improper about Sebelius’s ObamaCare
> fundraising
>
> The Health and Human Services Department (HHS)
> says there's nothing illegal or improper about
> soliciting donations to help promote President
> Obama's healthcare law.


Great. So HHS says that what HHS is doing improperly is just fine.

Convincing argument. lulz


>
> blah blah blah


> Young pointed to a section of the Public Health
> Service Act that specifically allows the HHS
> secretary to work with outside organizations.
>
> "The Secretary is authorized to support by grant
> or contract (and to encourage others to support)
> private nonprofit entities working in health
> information and health promotion, preventive
> health services, and education in the appropriate
> use of health care," the law states.
>

That section of the law is intended to address PROVIDING grants to such organizations not SOLICITING funds from them. Furthermore, her contacts appear to have gone well beyond nonprofits.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: F'd Up Logic ()
Date: June 17, 2013 11:16AM

It is a basic fundamental of the American bill of rights that government is established to protect the welfare of Americans.

Like I said before, we will spend billions on new weapons arming third world countries that with in 10 years end up attacking us, but we won't spend money on attacking cancer.

Now that's that fucked up Washington lobbying. Clearly stopping deaths from Cancer is more important than hunting down 100 terrorists.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: We Suck ()
Date: June 17, 2013 11:20AM

Let's face it. When it come to healthcare of citizens. America sucks ass. That why so many people now are going overseas to places like Japan to have operations done.

We don't give a shit about are healthcare system.
Attachments:
healthcare.JPG

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Reality Check 4 U ()
Date: June 17, 2013 11:29AM

Your Daddy
Attachments:
icu.jpg

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Facts R ()
Date: June 17, 2013 11:55AM

We Suck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's face it. When it come to healthcare of
> citizens. America sucks ass. That why so many
> people now are going overseas to places like Japan
> to have operations done.
>
> We don't give a shit about are healthcare system.


Sorry, most of that difference has less to do with health care versus other social and other issues. Looking only at health problems the picture changes significantly.

For example, looking at the top 10 health-related causes for death in Japan (#1 in your graphic) versus the same in the US, it is higher in all other than heart disease.

JAPAN UNITED STATES Deaths
Cause Of Death Rank Deaths Rank Deaths Summary

Stroke 1 326,697 4 146,664 + 180,033
Influenza & Pneumonia 2 301,664 9 57,722 + 243,942
Coronary Heart Disease 3 258,235 1 445,864 - 187,629
Lung Cancers 4 165,756 3 165,402 + 354
Stomach Cancer 5 128,263 31 13,230 + 115,033
Colon-Rectum Cancers 6 111,580 7 62,592 + 48,988
Liver Cancer 7 83,410 26 17,862 + 65,548
Suicide 8 77,240 15 35,441 + 41,799
Kidney Disease 9 67,258 10 50,889 + 16,369
Pancreas Cancer 10 64,958 14 35,715 + 29,243
Population = USA Total
1,585,061
Total
1,031,381
+ 553,680
Note: Population is Equalized

Done in reverse, i.e., the top 10 US health-related causes, Japan still exceeds the US in 5 out of of those 10 (lung cancer, stroke, colon-rectal cancers, flu and pneumonia, and kidney disease).

Stop black kids and young adults from killing each other and you'll dramatically change the US rates versus the others shown in your graphic which, beyond being cherry-picked generally, don't have equivalent populations.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Opinions Ain't Facts ()
Date: June 17, 2013 12:03PM

Facts R Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stop black kids and young adults from killing each
> other and you'll dramatically change the US rates
> versus the others shown in your graphic which,
> beyond being cherry-picked generally, don't have
> equivalent populations.

The graph presents deaths per 100,000 of population, thereby equalizing the resulting rate.

The youth dealth toll from violence can be reduced by 90%+ by taking away their guns. Really, it's as simple as that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Facts R ()
Date: June 17, 2013 12:14PM

Opinions Ain't Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Facts R Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Stop black kids and young adults from killing
> each
> > other and you'll dramatically change the US
> rates
> > versus the others shown in your graphic which,
> > beyond being cherry-picked generally, don't
> have
> > equivalent populations.
>
> The graph presents deaths per 100,000 of
> population, thereby equalizing the resulting
> rate.
>
> The youth dealth toll from violence can be reduced
> by 90%+ by taking away their guns. Really, it's
> as simple as that.


Yeah? And...?

The numbers in the table also are normalized for population. That's the only equivalent way of looking at it.

How does that change anything that was said? Kids shooting each other isn't primarily a health care issue nor a reflection of our health care system or spending.

The intent of the graphic was to present the US as falling far down the list as a result of our health care system. That's not the case.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: ex-Lester ()
Date: June 17, 2013 12:42PM

You're paying more because preventative care is now always included in the coverage, the deductibles are capped at 2K, and the benefit maximums are no longer capped. You're paying more to get more care whether you need it or not. It's a tax imposed by the medical system.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Kim Cho ()
Date: June 17, 2013 12:45PM

Yes, I'm sure the World Health Organiztion said "Let's make America look bad and Japan, Sweden and Australia look good."

For what reason? Japan is paying them off?

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: c9c9W ()
Date: June 17, 2013 01:09PM

Kim Cho Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I'm sure the World Health Organiztion said
> "Let's make America look bad and Japan, Sweden and
> Australia look good."
>
> For what reason? Japan is paying them off?


Um, no. WHO didn't pull the graphic out of context and post it here.

But, beyond that, if you don't think that the the political agenda of various participants are reflected in the things like that then you are very naive.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Young Curmudgeon ()
Date: June 17, 2013 02:19PM

Factico Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The big pieces of the Affordable Care Act will
> take effect in 2014, but many parts of
> Obamacare are already in place.
>
> The Affordable Care Act:
>
> Prohibits individual and group health plans
> from placing lifetime limits on the dollar value
> of coverage.

>

> Prohibits rescinding coverage except in cases
> of fraud.


> Prohibits denying children coverage based on
> pre-existing medical conditions or from including
> pre-existing condition exclusions for
> children.

>
> Extends dependent coverage for adult children
> up to age 26 for all individual and group
> policies.


The bill has some good elements and some really awful elements, just like most other bills.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Liberal Logic 09 ()
Date: June 17, 2013 04:32PM

We Suck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's face it. When it come to healthcare of
> citizens. America sucks ass. That why so many
> people now are going overseas to places like Japan
> to have operations done.
>
> We don't give a shit about are healthcare system.


Some people go because of cheaper costs trying to save a few dollars and end up giving up their health for it in a decent amount of cases.

Overall the American Health care system is very good, that doesnt mean there arent shitty doctors everywhere though. If you seek out the good doctors you get good care, if your happy with just any doctor and think theyre all the same your rolling the dice with your health.

Theres a reason people around the world flock to our best hospitals for care, its not because we have crappy care

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: June 17, 2013 04:52PM

Liberal Logic 09 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Overall the American Health care system is very
> good,

This is one of the places that you and I disagree LL. That the American health care system is capable of providing excellent health care does not mean that overall the system is very good. Individuals in this country are lucky that most live in a generally healthy environment and work jobs that do not have high incidence of accidents. In addition otherwise healthy people can be generally robust. As a result many Americans are simply getting by on the health care that they can get as opposed to getting the health care they should have.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Liberal Logic 09 ()
Date: June 17, 2013 05:32PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Liberal Logic 09 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Overall the American Health care system is very
> > good,
>
> This is one of the places that you and I disagree
> LL. That the American health care system is
> capable of providing excellent health care does
> not mean that overall the system is very good.
> Individuals in this country are lucky that most
> live in a generally healthy environment and work
> jobs that do not have high incidence of accidents.
> In addition otherwise healthy people can be
> generally robust. As a result many Americans are
> simply getting by on the health care that they can
> get as opposed to getting the health care they
> should have.

All you can do is compare it to the rest of the world. Compared to the rest of the world our overall system is very good. Theres good doctors and hospitals all over the place. That doesnt mean every doctor is good or worth seeing.

The care is as good as the effort you put into it. If you put in some effort to find the best and are willing to drive a little bit to see them youll get very good care, but if you just go to INOVA and see any doctor they tell you too its likely youll get okay care at best.

Its a two way street and the person does have a responsibility to not just blindly follow whatever someone who went to med school says. They pump doctors out every year from those schools not everyone is going to be good.

I agree a lot of people are happy with just any doctor, the system itself cant be blamed for that. There are places in the system where vast improvements could happen. Ortho surgeries are taken way to lightly now a days leading to 100s of thousands of unnecessary blood clots. The system can be blamed for that. But if something happens America is where you want to be for your care, you just have to put a little effort into it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Young Curmudgeon ()
Date: June 17, 2013 06:20PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is one of the places that you and I disagree
> LL. That the American health care system is
> capable of providing excellent health care does
> not mean that overall the system is very good.
> Individuals in this country are lucky that most
> live in a generally healthy environment and work
> jobs that do not have high incidence of accidents.
> In addition otherwise healthy people can be
> generally robust. As a result many Americans are
> simply getting by on the health care that they can
> get as opposed to getting the health care they
> should have.

I concur. The American health care system has singularly excellent hospitals in it (Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, etc.). However, the system as a whole is not particularly good considering the general wealth and influence of the United States.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2013 06:20PM by Young Curmudgeon.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Liberal Logic 09 ()
Date: June 17, 2013 06:29PM

Young Curmudgeon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill.N. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This is one of the places that you and I
> disagree
> > LL. That the American health care system is
> > capable of providing excellent health care does
> > not mean that overall the system is very good.
> > Individuals in this country are lucky that most
> > live in a generally healthy environment and
> work
> > jobs that do not have high incidence of
> accidents.
> > In addition otherwise healthy people can be
> > generally robust. As a result many Americans
> are
> > simply getting by on the health care that they
> can
> > get as opposed to getting the health care they
> > should have.
>
> I concur. The American health care system has
> singularly excellent hospitals in it (Hopkins,
> Mayo Clinic, etc.). However, the system as a whole
> is not particularly good considering the general
> wealth and influence of the United States.


As a whole it is very good. The problem is our country is so large that within any large system there is going to be a percent that just isnt good at all. The only way to fix that is to shrink the country down to the size of Denmark where you can weed out the bad Drs because theyre no longer needed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: July 19, 2017 08:08AM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Conservatives are like chickens with their heads
> cut off right now. They have left themselves with
> no path. Thats what the politics of obstruction
> does to a national party. It degrades it to
> irrelevancy and paralyzes it with indifference and
> impotence. A party in that state cannot govern and
> must be forced to reform through losses at the
> ballot box.

Holy fuck read this shit. Over four years ago I warned you to stop doing what you were doing. Not to award Republicans for obstruction.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Get sick and die=universal HC ()
Date: July 19, 2017 08:13AM

True_Blue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Remember, Friends, that many Americans are unhappy
> w/Obamacare because it is NOT universal
> healthcare.


Ask Charlie Guard's parents what they think about 'universal' healthcare. NHS won't let the parents take their baby out of the hospital to seek other treatment. Instead, they want them suck it up because the government has decided it's better for Charlie to let him die. You are one sick moron.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: July 19, 2017 08:20AM

Its time for single payer.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Inquisitive One ()
Date: July 20, 2017 12:49AM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its time for single payer.

Would you be willing to pay a 12.5 to 15 percent increase in your income taxes or 20 percent payroll tax if you are self employed for single payer? Americans are like crack addicts because they love free shit but change their minds when they have to pay for their own crack!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Math sucks for libtards ()
Date: July 20, 2017 02:26AM

Inquisitive One Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Its time for single payer.
>
> Would you be willing to pay a 12.5 to 15 percent
> increase in your income taxes or 20 percent
> payroll tax if you are self employed for single
> payer? Americans are like crack addicts because
> they love free shit but change their minds when
> they have to pay for their own crack!


Exactly. And it wouldn't even pay for it then.

Take the $400 billion estimated cost of California's single-payer initiative/39 million population of California ~= $10,256.41 per person.

$10,256.41 x 321 million population of the US = $3.392 trillion!

Total US budget for 2016 = $3.9 trillion.

Total estimated tax revenue for 2016 = $2.99 trillion.

Dumb fuckers.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: July 20, 2017 03:24AM

lmao, Rightards are attacking single payer now. They're on the run folks. They're backing out holding on to what ground they can. It's time for single payer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2017 03:25AM by Gerrymanderer2.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Inquisitive One ()
Date: July 20, 2017 06:09AM

Inquisitive One Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Its time for single payer.
>
> Would you be willing to pay a 12.5 to 15 percent
> increase in your income taxes or 20 percent
> payroll tax if you are self employed for single
> payer? Americans are like crack addicts because
> they love free shit but change their minds when
> they have to pay for their own crack!


Just answer the question, PLEASE!

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: July 20, 2017 06:18AM

You're math is bullshit. We pay more per capita for our health care as it is by a multitude than any other country. We have an inefficient system that kills people.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Inquisitive One ()
Date: July 20, 2017 06:49AM

My figures are from the Vermont system just before they abandoned their single payer system efforts due to cost. LOOK IT UP! Those costs probably did not include the sex change operations and hormone therapy that would probably be required to satisfy Title I of the ACA. California knew what the end result would be so they refused to provide costs and/or the means to pay for it because it would be political suicide. Also, the European model is not conducive to the US because the Europeans installed their system long before there was an insurance system in which we have grown accustomed to coverage for things not available there . I will repeat the question. Are you willing to pay 12-20 percent in increased income taxes to get your single payer health care? If your answer is no I will assume that your crack pipe is empty and you want the government to fill it for you!

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Inquisitive One ()
Date: July 20, 2017 09:21AM

As a matter of providing truth I need to disclose that I provided incorrect information about the Vermont single payer progrBy Jay Fitzgerald Globe Correspondent January 25, 2015

For decades, liberal activists yearned for a European-style, single-payer health system that they argued would lead to more affordable, efficient, and comprehensive medical coverage for all citizens. When Vermont four years ago enacted a landmark bill to establish the nation’s first single-payer health care system, they saw their long-sought dream about to be fulfilled.

But reality hit last month. Governor Peter Shumlin released a financial report that showed the cost of the program would nearly double the size of the state’s budget in the first year alone and require large tax increases for residents and businesses. Shumlin, a Democrat and long-time single-payer advocate, said he would not seek funding for the law, effectively tabling the program called Green Mountain Care.

“In my judgment, now is not the time to ask our Legislature to take the step of passing a financing plan for Green Mountain Care,’’ Shumlin said.

The decision not only stunned and angered supporters in Vermont, but also signaled that the dream of universal, government-funded health care in the United States may be near its end. Vermont’s experience, analysts said, shows how difficult — and costly — it can be to shift from a system long-dominated by private health insurance, and that the future of universal health care lies within the private market.

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In short, if a liberal state electing a Socialist (US Senator Bernie Sanders) to Congress can’t or won’t put a single-payer system into place, then who will?

View Story

Vermont’s proposed single-payer plan at glance

Here’s a look at the key components of a single-payer health care proposal recently rejected by Vermont Governor Peter Shumlin.

“The idea of single-payer, or a Medicare-for-all type program, has always been a cherished dream for many in the Democratic Party,” said Henry J. Aaron, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, a liberal-leaning Washington think tank. “In truth, there had never been a hard, developed plan to implement such a dream. In Vermont, they finally developed a plan, and look what happened.”

A single-payer system has been the Holy Grail for progressives since the end of World War II, when President Harry Truman unsuccessfully pushed for a government-run National Health Insurance Plan to provide medical coverage for all Americans. In the 1970s, the late Senator Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts vainly battled for a variation of Truman’s national insurance plan.


In the 1990s, President Bill Clinton turned to the private market to provide universal care, requiring that employers furnish health insurance for their workers. But that plan was rejected, too. Finally, in 2010, after a momentous congressional battle, President Obama signed into law the Affordable Care Act, achieving universal coverage by expanding Medicaid, the government health care program for the poor, and mandating private insurance for others.

Vermont took Obamacare a step further. In 2011, Shumlin proudly signed a bill to establish a publicly financed, single-payer system. The law required Shumlin to submit a detailed financial plan by 2013.

Shumlin missed the deadline, raising fears among supporters and critics alike that single-payer health care would cost much more than anticipated. Those fears were realized on Dec. 17, when Shumlin, two years late and just a month from narrowly winning reelection, released the financial analysis.

The numbers were stunning. To implement single-payer, the analysis showed, it would cost $4.3 billion in 2017, with Vermont taxpayers picking up $2.6 billion and the federal government covering the rest. To put the figures into perspective, Vermont’s entire fiscal 2015 budget, including both state and federal funds, is about $4.9 billion.

Shumlin’s office estimated the state would need to impose new personal income taxes of up to 9.5 percent, on top of current rates that range from 3.55 to 8.95 percent. Businesses would be hit with an 11.5 percent payroll tax, on top of 7.65 percent payroll taxes employer pay for Social Security and Medicare.

And even those tax increases might not have been enough. The governor’s office estimated the Green Mountain Care program would run deficits of $82 million by 2020 and $146 million in 2021. Shumlin said he feared the tax increases would harm businesses and the economy.

Stauch Blaise, 59, a former landscaping firm owner who is now disabled, said health care is “an issue of human rights and justice.”

Jessica Rinaldi/Globe Staff

Stauch Blaise, 59, a former landscaping firm owner who is now disabled, said health care is “an issue of human rights and justice.”

Art Woolf, an economist at the University of Vermont, said Shumlin was right to be worried. Though Vermont’s unemployment rate is 4.4 percent, compared with 5.6 percent nationally, residents and companies are burdened by high property taxes, housing prices, utility costs, and other expenses, he said.

Betsy Bishop, president of the Vermont Chamber of Commerce, said the 11.5 percent payroll tax would have crippled small companies that account for most of the state’s employment. “Our businesses experienced a collective sigh of relief when the governor announced his decision last month,” Bishop said.

So what went wrong? In a speech last month, Shumlin explained that conditions had changed since Vermont embarked on Green Mountain Care at the start of the decade. He noted the state’s recovery from the last recession was slower than expected and tax revenues had not grown as much as a result.

He also said federal funding would be less than anticipated, forcing Vermont residents to cover more of the costs of a single-payer system.

Health care specialists said Vermont always faced a daunting challenge. Switching from the current system — a hybrid of private insurance and government programs such as Medicaid and Medicare — was inherently complicated, contentious, and costly.

In Europe, many countries built their universal health care systems from scratch, with some starting early last century when most citizens had no medical coverage and any services provided by governments were welcome, the Brooking Institution’s Aaron said. That allowed those countries to slowly build and expand health care systems over decades.

But in the United States private insurance arrangements between employees and employers have expanded and matured over the decades, with many people with insurance expecting a high level of medical service. So, switching to a single-payer system would need to meet those higher expectations — and higher costs — all at once, Aaron said.

“It’s easier to build from scratch than when a system is already up and running,” he said. “We could have maybe created a single-payer system 60 or so years ago, when insurance wasn’t as complete and widespread. But it would be very disruptive and costly today.”

Ron Pollack, executive director of Families USA, a national organization representing health care consumers, said he has long believed in the benefits of a single-payer system. But he also remembered his talks with Kennedy. The late senator, Pollack said, expressed regrets he didn’t earlier embrace insurance-based universal care, rather than holding out for a single-payer system that never materialized.

Pollack said activists might be better off pushing to improve provisions of the Affordable Care Act. “It may change in time and single-payer might become reality,” Pollack said. “But the political reality and the fiscal realities make it a very tough sell.”

In Vermont, however, activists have not given up the fight. During Shumlin’s inauguration this month in Montpelier, protesters disrupted festivities to protest the decision to drop the single-payer plan. Twenty-nine protesters were arrested and charged with unlawful trespassing; some were also charged with resisting arrest.

One of the protesters was Stauch Blaise, 59, a former landscaping firm owner who is now disabled from spine and nerve problems. He said he supported the state’s single-payer plan because he can’t afford all his medical expenses not covered by Medicare.

“It’s an issue of human rights and justice,” said Blaise, of East Randolph, Vt.

Vermont political analysts say the state’s Progressive Party, which didn’t run gubernatorial candidates against Shumlin in recent elections, is all but certain to nominate a gubernatorial candidate in favor of single-payer care in 2016. Shumlin, who is now in his third two-year term, declined requests for an interview.

For the time being, many Democrats, who control the Legislature, are rallying around Shumlin, who has held out hope that a single-payer system could be implemented one day in the future.

“He would have damaged the whole cause of universal health care if he had proceeded with a plan that didn’t work,” said state Senator Claire Ayer, a Democrat and chairwoman of the Senate Health and Welfare Committee. “It costs too much and could create difficulties. It was just completely unsustainable.”
am that was abandoned. The correct amounts are about 12.5 percent individual income tax rates and 17.5 percent corporate income tax rates AFTER implementation of the insurance. Here is the original story from the Boston Globe.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Math sucks for libtards ()
Date: July 20, 2017 11:50AM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're math is bullshit. We pay more per capita
> for our health care as it is by a multitude than
> any other country. We have an inefficient system
> that kills people.


"You're" bullshit is bullshit.

What makes you think that 'single-payer' would be any less expensive just on the basis of who is paying for it? Are you questioning the uber-efficient libtard Mecca of CALIFORNIA's numbers? Cool, then let's use Australia which doesn't really have single-payer either but you seem to believe that it does at ~=$8,500/person.

$8,500 x 321 million population of the US = $2.729 trillion!

Hey, that's only 91% of ALL Federal tax revenues. lol

You stupid bitch.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Math sucks for libtards ()
Date: July 20, 2017 12:24PM

Inquisitive One Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a matter of providing truth I need to disclose
> that I provided incorrect information about the
> Vermont single payer progrBy Jay Fitzgerald Globe
> Correspondent January 25, 2015
>
> For decades, liberal activists yearned for a
> European-style, single-payer health system that
> they argued would lead to more affordable,
> efficient, and comprehensive medical coverage for
> all citizens. When Vermont four years ago enacted
> a landmark bill to establish the nation’s first
> single-payer health care system, they saw their
> long-sought dream about to be fulfilled.
>
> But reality hit last month. Governor Peter Shumlin
> released a financial report that showed the cost
> of the program would nearly double the size of the
> state’s budget in the first year alone and
> require large tax increases for residents and
> businesses. Shumlin, a Democrat and long-time
> single-payer advocate, said he would not seek
> funding for the law, effectively tabling the
> program called Green Mountain Care.
>
>...
>
> The correct amounts are
> about 12.5 percent individual income tax rates and
> 17.5 percent corporate income tax rates AFTER
> implementation of the insurance. Here is the
> original story from the Boston Globe.


You can't really use states as the basis for comparison because they all assume a large component of Federal money. e.g., In the case of CA they assumed that half of the $400 billion would come from the Federal government. Even with that it still would blow the state budget and it's not feasible even to libtards. That's the only reason that 'RomneyCare' worked (kinda) in MA - it receives excess Medicaid payments that helps to cover the shortage. Unfortunately there is no other deep-pockets daddy at the Federal level.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Inquisitive One ()
Date: July 20, 2017 12:40PM

The original point was that libs view single payer health care as more free shit and would gag at the thought of even paying 12.5 percent.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Math sucks for libtards ()
Date: July 20, 2017 12:59PM

Inquisitive One Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The original point was that libs view single payer
> health care as more free shit and would gag at the
> thought of even paying 12.5 percent.


True. But the reality is that more than half don't pay much if anything in taxes so they don't care. The lowest 40% get more out in credits than they pay in. So the burden would be even greater on the middle class and up to cover the dregs.

We have too large of an overall population and much too large of an unproductive population generating revenue to do what libtards like to point to in Europe and Canada. Even there they're having to cut back on social benefits as the population has increased, mostly at the lower end. We can't even really afford the Medicare/Medicaid programs that we have now. The only reason that things work here at all is that private business picks up +70% of people.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Inquisitive One ()
Date: July 20, 2017 01:11PM

I do not know if many people remember during the mid '90's when Bill Clinton stated that he would not impose a tax increase on the middle class which immediately resulted in a debate about how much income defines the middle class. At that time, he started out defining middle class as being anything over $75K which created a huge debate. This will return because the taxes needed for everything that is being tossed around cannot be funded by taxing the rich. Then again, the rich can and very well may leave!

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Math sucks for libtards ()
Date: July 20, 2017 01:19PM

Inquisitive One Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not know if many people remember during the
> mid '90's when Bill Clinton stated that he would
> not impose a tax increase on the middle class
> which immediately resulted in a debate about how
> much income defines the middle class. At that
> time, he started out defining middle class as
> being anything over $75K which created a huge
> debate. This will return because the taxes needed
> for everything that is being tossed around cannot
> be funded by taxing the rich. Then again, the
> rich can and very well may leave!


Similar to how Democrats like to talk about taxing 'millionaires and billionaires' but for real-world purposes under Obamacare that breaks down to having to tax anyone making $200K in order to generate the required revenue.

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: DanKnows ()
Date: July 20, 2017 01:49PM

Opinions Ain't Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Facts R Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Stop black kids and young adults from killing
> each
> > other and you'll dramatically change the US
> rates
> > versus the others shown in your graphic which,
> > beyond being cherry-picked generally, don't
> have
> > equivalent populations.
>
> The graph presents deaths per 100,000 of
> population, thereby equalizing the resulting
> rate.
>
> The youth dealth toll from violence can be reduced
> by 90%+ by taking away their guns. Really, it's
> as simple as that.


How's that working in Chicago?

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Re: Obamacare, Public Opinion, and Conservative Self-Delusion
Posted by: Inquisitive One ()
Date: July 20, 2017 02:01PM

Math sucks for libtards Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Inquisitive One Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I do not know if many people remember during
> the
> > mid '90's when Bill Clinton stated that he
> would
> > not impose a tax increase on the middle class
> > which immediately resulted in a debate about
> how
> > much income defines the middle class. At that
> > time, he started out defining middle class as
> > being anything over $75K which created a huge
> > debate. This will return because the taxes
> needed
> > for everything that is being tossed around
> cannot
> > be funded by taxing the rich. Then again, the
> > rich can and very well may leave!
>
>
> Similar to how Democrats like to talk about taxing
> 'millionaires and billionaires' but for real-world
> purposes under Obamacare that breaks down to
> having to tax anyone making $200K in order to
> generate the required revenue.


Single payer would be much worse and would probably require the cost of health care flow down to the poverty line adjusted for the ability to pay.

THAT IS THE PRECISE REASON THAT THE SANDERS BILL OR ANY OTHER EQUIVALENT BILL BE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE COST AS WELL AS THE MEANS (TAXES) OF FINANCING AS A REQUIREMENT FOR CONSIDERATION. NO MORE NANCY PELOSI PROVISIONS OF YOU MUST PASS THIS BILL IN ORDER TO FIND OUT WHAT'S IN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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