So why do so many people say that new houses are poorly constructed compared to the old ramblers and colonials?Any builders to stay away from?I'm thinking of moving from Arlington to Loudoun.

During the housing boom a lot of unskilled labor was used to do skilled work. This, combined with poor quality materials from China, such as toxic drywall, led to a lot of problems with new construction at the height of the housing boom. I think if you buy something built in the 2010-2011 timeframe, though, you probably avoid most of this.

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Gunrunner Wrote:
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> So why do so many people say that new houses are
> poorly constructed compared to the old ramblers
> and colonials?Any builders to stay away from?I'm
> thinking of moving from Arlington to Loudoun.

Anything built in the past 50-60 years is questionable IMO.

The build quality on a lot of the large housing developments built in the 60's, 70's, and 80's is just a bad (if not worse) that what they're throwing up today.

Good examples are Greenbrier and Brookfield.

Agreed that quality of construction has been shoddy. However, the quality of materials has improved, for the most part. Much of older drywall and drywall mud had asbestos in it, insulation is much better. There was no house wrap 50 or 60 years ago, windows weren't as thermal efficiant, stuff like that. Nonetheless, if you have poor workmanship it won't make up for better materials.

As others have pointed out, it's a mixed bag out there with one fairly constant warning sign - if an entire neighborhood/land bay was built out quickly (almost simultaniously) then odds are better that corners were cut/substandard employees used/etc.
You can check build dates on most realestate web sites.

Bottom line, you get what you pay for.

Many houses, old or new, are built cheaply. Do your homework and you can find places that are better, but if you really want something good, you're going to have to pay through the nose for it. Most big subdivisions are crap. The builders threw the houses up quickly and cheaply, the exception being the model homes of the development. Those were usually done very well since the whole point was to make the buyers think all the houses were so well built. The downside of the models is they often have a weird assortment of features.

Shadow Wrote:
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> Bottom line, you get what you pay for.
>
> Many houses, old or new, are built cheaply. Do
> your homework and you can find places that are
> better, but if you really want something good,
> you're going to have to pay through the nose for
> it. Most big subdivisions are crap. The builders
> threw the houses up quickly and cheaply, the
> exception being the model homes of the
> development. Those were usually done very well
> since the whole point was to make the buyers think
> all the houses were so well built. The downside
> of the models is they often have a weird
> assortment of features.


That's pretty much true. One time, I stopped in to walk through some model homes at a high end development. I was astounded to find that the fit and finish was terrible. Modling not lining up, flooring not fitting, kitchen cabinets not aligned. Stuff like that. Now, I had no interest in buying a place, was just curious, but if that models looked like that, can you imagine what the rest looked like and what might have been covered up?

I walked through a Beazer TH in Brambleton that sold for 500k back in the day. Huge cracks in the walls and heard a story from a neighbor about how no soundproofing was installed on some houses. You should be getting a home inspection before buying though, and a good one should catch any real issues with the structure. Ulimately you can fix nail pops and poorly aligned trim. The huge crack indicated something more troublesome to me.

We're these just settling cracks in the drywall? I find it hard to believe they were structural.

Drywall cracks in new houses are from settlement. Its unavoidable.

If you buy a new house you must take an interest in it's construction. Stop by and observe. Make sure it gets built the way you want. Research the company.

Poorly Constructed New Houses for you and me...hey!



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Toll Brotha Wrote:
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> We're these just settling cracks in the drywall?
> I find it hard to believe they were structural.


There shouldn't be settlement cracks. The earth on which it is built has to have a compaction test to ensure it is stable. Then the foundation should be sufficient to support the structure. If there are "settling cracks" it means the structure is shifting or leaning or dropping somewhere, which should not happen.

Drywall cracks in corners are usually due to no tape, or not letting the mud dry before apply a second coat. If the cracks appear on the board then it means the structure has shifted. It could also mean that the framing isn't plumb or true. Any of this is shoody workmanship.

Watch Mike Holmes on HGTV. You will learn a lot about looking around in houses for defects. It's kind of depressing to see just how bad things can be. Lots of people just look at the decorating in a house (granite counter tops, hardwood floors). Those are the easy things to put in or replace. I would much prefer that the builders forgo all the shiny stuff and put the money into the structure. I think it's good advice to watch the building process and opt to spend money on the "guts" of the house. You will be much more comfortable in a house with good heating, plumbing, and electrical systems and you can add the fancy stuff later.

I was watching Holmes on Homes and he traced a plumbing problem to a water line running through an uninsulated roof of a porch...in Canada.

It's fucking amazing the shit contractors get away with, even with inspections and building permits.

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Also, the soil on which the structure is built dictates what kind of foundatin you have to have. For example, off of Telegraph Road near where Browne Academy is (can't remember what that area is called) there is marine clay, which is very unstable, older homes actually slid off the foundations due to hydrostatic pressure. Newer homes built were supposed to have foundation systems and water protection that would prevent the problems the older homes had.

The Holmes show is great, wouldn't it be nice to have the money to devote to the issues they uncover. As my name implies I used to be a builder of high end homes and additions. Even though I knew I was working with people with money, for the most part, if you went in with a proposal or bid with the kinds of resouces he has you wouldn't get many jobs.

I recall a freind of mine who was another contractor, and he bid his jobs extemely high, just so he could ensure that he did everything right. He retired also, he wasn't a high volume contractor but had an amazing reputation. By the way, I ALWAYS got all permits and inspections, always used licensed subs and never hired illegals, although I retired a number of years ago when the day labor sites, like 7-11s and all weren't nearly so common.

The problem with new subdivision homes is that they are built so fast, with little attention to detail that shoddy work is either ignored or accepted.

The cost of being a builder in Fairfax County is substantial and builders are in it to make as much money as they can.

I went into one house because the owerns wanted to get a price for new kitchen cabinets. Honestly the floor was so unlevel, it was nearly 1/2" lower on one side ina span of about 12' (that is significant). You could feel it by walking across the floor. I expalined the problem to them. I didn't go into inspection of the floor joists or anything because it was just a preliminary discussion. I didn't want the job becuase they didn't want to spend the money to fix the problem.

The materials and building techniques are better then they've ever been. But its all up to the builder.

In addition to Holmes, I would watch This Old House and subscribe to Fine Homebuilding. Keep in mind the techniques used can be "mercedes" level where it will drive the home cost up, but you should still be aware of options.

Basic things to look for and ask about;

- Type of insulation and R value
- Fit and finish of drywall and trim, others above mentioned what a hack job looks like
- Was house wrap used?
- Was rubber wrap used around windows + doors?
- Whats behind the tiles in bath/shower...if drywall then get out of there
- Was the basement and attic insulated?
- What kind of shingles, cheap 15 year or better 25+ year
- Quality of windows/doors

Just a few things.... :o)

Back in the housing boom a guy I work with was wondering why the trees in the yard of his newly purchased home were not growing very well until one day he leaned against one and it simply fell over. When the landscaping was put in, they had simply taken the trees from their plastic buckets, set them on the ground and piled mulch around the root ball. The time and money to dig small holes to plant the trees in was more than the developer was willing to spend.

It seems safe to assume that the house and the rest of teh development received that same attention to detail.

Should a TH really settle that much? I mean it is built on a slab of concrete and attached to a whole row of structure. I can see a SFH sinking a bit and each house having a little settling in the frame, but it shouldnt be anything worse than some nail pops or a few small cracks that do not return once repaired.

My only reference is my parents single family house that they had built in 1987 in a different state. I don't remember seeing my Dad go around fixing nail pops and patching cracks from "settling". In fact, there is very little signs of any of that 25 years later. I think the roof leaked a bit when it was near the end of it's suggested lifespan, but that was it. On the other hand, my 5 year old Pulte townhome creaks, has leaky windows and doors, and had a number of nail pops. Only one cracked piece of sheet rock though. You can see some shotty work on corners and stuff too. Unfortunately for area home buyers, I've seen much worse than this.

A lot of things in general are built cheaper than they used to be. For instance, the standard siding on houses nowadays is vinyl, but when our house was built it was aluminum. It's sort of funny, because now that we are having different companies competing to re-do our siding, all the rip-offs recommend vinyl only because it's the cheapest, whereas anyone with quality in mind and in want of an upgrade over aluminum will recommend Hardie board. Other than price-wise, vinyl is a complete downgrade. Our house still has all its original aluminum siding, gutters, downspouts, and shingles from 1985, and other than some dents and dings it's still all in great shape.

Also, when our houses were built they spaced them out and took property into consideration, whereas these days it's all about stuffing in as many residents as possible for the greatest profit (It's been that way for over a decade, but it's gotten much worse. Take a look at all of the random apartments and townhouses in formerly rural LoCo for instance, it's like an ocean of them at every turn until you hit the foothills).

Btw, the one thing they did with my neighborhood is that they also kept the original woods intact for the most part, and so we actually have some really nice woodland as our backyards. I'm not saying that you need woods to have a quality home, but I am saying that they planned ahead for everything instead of simply stuffing in trees as an afterthought.

I also love how new technology is touted for all of its energy efficiency, but IME none of it works as well as the older products. Our old, original Trane A/C lasted well over 20 years with this house, yet the new one that is more efficient has had to be replaced and repaired multiple times, the Freon constantly needs recharging, and there is a noticeable temperature difference between the floors. None of these factors used to be a problem.

Oh, and hey, if you want to talk about really old quality my family's hand-built early 18th century farmhouse still stood in Upstate NY until it was demolished to make way for a club in the late 1950s, and the barn is still standing without having needed any modifications at all.

FYI- I do know that codes have gotten better over time with many aspects, so I'm not bashing all things modern, but unless you have a solid carpenter working around your house the stock/original workmanship and material quality has gone noticeably downward in favor of profit.

Oh, and for the record, my family put a lot of thought into choosing this house. The land was surveyed by us before choosing a lot, and every last thing was put into consideration early on before all our options were signed-off on.

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"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

ThePackLeader-Your comments about your neighborhood remind me of the neighborhood that I grew up in. However before we go to far with the "older is better and newer is crappy" I would point out that many neighborhoods built around the same time as the one I grew up in were built to lower standards and had significant problems as well.

I would never choose aluminum siding over vinyl. I don't want a bunch of dents on the sides of my house, it's cheaper, and it insulates better than aluminum.

Meh Wrote:
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> I would never choose aluminum siding over vinyl.
> I don't want a bunch of dents on the sides of my
> house, it's cheaper, and it insulates better than
> aluminum.

That ultra thin cheap-shit layer of vinyl doesn't insulate anything. Its just there to keep the house dry.

I suppose the aluminum siding would better conduct the cold/heat, but since its on the other side of the insulation/house wrap its probably a negligible difference.

vinyl is final!

"Vinyl is final."

Especially if the house rots away underneath it. Otherwise, it might last up to about 40 years, if you can stand looking at it for that long.

What do want?
Newly constructed poor houses?
Yoy can't have both ways,
Unless you're bi.

ex builder Wrote:
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> vinyl is final!

When it catches on fire and you have Petroleum covering it yeah its pretty much written off. Also the types of materials being used are a big factor, I WILL not buy anything newer than 70, it may still not be the best construction but the wood is at least solid, you do not have Pressed board with 1x2 making an I-beam, true it's strength is as strong if not stronger, but in the event of water or forbid fire it fails much quicker. The Gussets fail much quicker in adverse situations. The costs cut by using this junk just to insure that a new house will be built eventually on the same plot of land. I also prefer wood (enough space between houses and lack of Brush like encountered out west) or Aluminum as outer covering.

Bought a new TH out in Ashburn from a "reputable builder" about 10 years ago. Tiles in shower started to push into the wall. Came to find out that they put tile right over drywall. BIG no-no.

I'f your a complete noob, then pay for an inspection. Most people think they don't need it with a new home, but they couldn't be more wrong. There's so many little things that can be done wrong.

never buy a house built during a boom as stated earlier .a home built by a custom local builder will always be superior to a national builder ,he is a part of the community and his name is on the line.also code compliance is the minimum accepted not a mark of quality. if a builder uses the term value engineering you better run.most drywall pops and cracks are due to insuficient nailers /framing missing or a nail that has missed and was just left in place.anouther common issue is the mud itself easy sand lightwieght witch is supposed to be for skim coat and or stippling, popcorn knock down or some other textured finish the tape and block coats should be durabond.the differance in cost is minimal so if they skimp on something as simple as that where else have they cut corners.

WEHT to all the skilled labor that lost their jobs to unskilled illegals?

Hovnanian (sp?) had a bunch of law suits against them during the housing boom a few years back. Pictures in the Post were terrifying - we're talking about inside flights of stairs coming off walls. Of course Hovnanian blamed immigrant workers and poor subcontractors; how courageous of them to duck any responsibility! I'm sure they were not the only bad company, but I'd stay away from their houses.

I bought an NV (now NV Ryan) townhome, new, in 1995. While the house is structurally fine, I just replaced the doors which were builders grade garbage for a fast $18,000. Windows will be next. Another $20k no doubt. My fault ... I had the opportunity to upgrade but spent money on marble bathrooms instead. If you're buying new, I suggest you invest in better quality windows and doors than I did! Screw the marble.

Hmmmm county inspection huh


Not speaking to above poster but why do all you rich folks put up with this shit. You say you work hard for the money. So hard for the money(donna summer nod)