Has anyone heard anything about irregularities with the AAP (Advanced Academic Program) tests this year?

Why - is it no longer 50%+ Asian?

Our school experienced delays in getting test results. Parents were concerned because they delay did not give them much time for completing parent referrals. Also heard the amount of kids qualifying countywide was almost double than than of other years. That seems really odd. Why now?

Another AAP Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our school experienced delays in getting test
> results. Parents were concerned because they
> delay did not give them much time for completing
> parent referrals. Also heard the amount of kids
> qualifying countywide was almost double than than
> of other years. That seems really odd. Why now?

You don't need the test scores to write a referral.

Yes, there was a mass cheating ring uncovered in the 1st and 2nd grades.
The 2nd graders were texting the answers of the NNAT test to the 1st graders. They still haven't figured out how the CoGAT was cracked.

I heard that the ringleader cracked and wept like a baby, when they busted him coming in from recess.

Another AAP Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our school experienced delays in getting test
> results. Parents were concerned because they
> delay did not give them much time for completing
> parent referrals. Also heard the amount of kids
> qualifying countywide was almost double than than
> of other years. That seems really odd. Why now?

There are CogAT and NNAT test prep classes available for 1st and 2nd graders now, so with test prep it would make sense that the scores would go up. You cannot have 'double' the number scoring in the top 10% - the absolute scores may be different from last year, but the top 10% will still be 10% of the students that took the test. And the top 10% is what qualifies for Level IV.

Are you kidding?

This county blows me away. They have kids going away to GT centers in 3rd grade and then they complain when they have to put in honors classes in high school. ?? First you "track" heavily in 3rd grade and then you take away the tracking and choices in high school???? Yeah, it makes total sense. Thank you FCPS.

I know Domenech thought it was ridiculous and he tried to do one itty bitty thing about it and people screamed.

Another AAP Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also heard the amount of kids
> qualifying countywide was almost double than than
> of other years. That seems really odd. Why now?

Couple different possibilities -

1) Part of their long term plan to kill off GTCs and replace with Local Level IV?
2) They've piped Clinton ES's water to other schools?
3) Staff can't count?
4) Part of a plan to add more kids to round one so they can pick "the right kids" - be they teacher pleasers, PTA Mom's kids, minorities of the week, ... (Just like they've done with TJ...)

By the way, it wouldn't be the first time GTC acceptances (not just first round selection) doubled. They also doubled the year FCPS switched to the Negleri. "The Year of the Bubble" at Hunters Woods.

Stop the hate. We rule!

Makes so much sense said:

"They have kids going away to GT centers in 3rd grade and then they complain when they have to put in honors classes in high school. ?? First you "track" heavily in 3rd grade and then you take away the tracking and choices in high school???? Yeah, it makes total sense. Thank you FCPS."

+1!
It's time FCPS woke up.
Kids in elementary classes can go from the bottom of a class to the top in one year. I've seen it happen. Not common--but not rare. If they are tracked too early, it does not serve ANY of them well. Lots of kids move up within a class every year--and some of the designated stars plateau in the middle. A standardized IQ test is just that--a standardized test which is currently being "prepped" in certain parts of the FCPS community.
The integrity of the test is compromised, and FCPS needs to drop it. As far as the Gifted Rating scale, it's pretty subjective and there is a lot of pressure on teachers from some parents to be sure that their child does well on it.

Start tracking according to performance and subject at 5th or 6th grade and through middle school and up. That is when it makes sense.

Keep the centers, if you insist, for the extremely highly gifted. Maybe the top 1% that we hear so much about these days. Get the kids off the bus and back to their home schools. And quit AAP in the local schools, too. It would help class size across the board and would save money on bus transportation and eliminate a lot of traffic at Kiss and Ride. It would also save training money for all these GT teachers.

Loved how Kathy Smith voted against Honors in High school but brags that her child benefited from the Center program. Go figure.

Another AAP Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also heard the amount of kids
> qualifying countywide was almost double than than
> of other years. That seems really odd. Why now?

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/215608.page#2144734

The benchmark scores vary each year to result in about 2,000 students in the pool. When the NNAT2 (vs. the NNAT) was first given, the number of kids in the pool dropped when they kept the benchmark at 132 so they lowered it to 130. With the Cogat Form 7 this year, if they had left the benchmark at 130, they would have over 5,000 kids in the pool. (That's 5,000 screening files to prepare and review.) So they adjusted the benchmark score to 132 to include a 132 on any CogAT subtest. They were still over 3,000 kids in the pool. So they contacted the author of the test, who suggested they use the CogAT composite of 132. That results in a little over 2,500 students in the pool.

GT/AAP is a scam. What's the point of advanced classes for third graders? Something's rotten here; there is just know way that FC is a breeding ground of little geniuses. Quite the opposite. FC is a breeding ground for over-achieving, type-a, hyper-vigilant, high-pressure, status-seeking parents. To have a child (or two or five) in FC gifted program gives an air of exclusivity and a nice accompaniment to travel sports teams, multiple extra-curricular activities and a child-focused life.

Far too many parents become despondent when little Tyler does not test as gifted, then the real work begins. Mom and Dad drag Tyler to a small army of specialists for additional tests, letters of recommendations and begin their lobbying to get Tyler into GT. Happens all the time.

Yes, I understand that there truly are gifted, genius-like children in Fairfax County, but statistically, there is no way that there are legions of these children - enough to fill centers, and entire classrooms in each school. No way. Yes, some kids need more challenges, lest they get bored. I'm not sold on the highly-specialized "gifted" program.

By the way, have any of you spent time in a third grade gifted classroom? A sixth grade gifted class? Ugh. Gifted classes also have the tortured genius type who has never, ever been told no by a parent and is already a self-involved, conceited arse. GT classes also get the crazy smart kids (with emphasis on the crazy) with unbelievable discipline and behavior problems.

Well this mostly helpful. I'm not a hyper-vigilant parent but want to be aware. I'm not sure AAP is right for my child, but want to know as much as I can before making that determination. I do hope the process is fair to all students.

Mrs. Harumph Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> By the way, have any of you spent time in a third
> grade gifted classroom? A sixth grade gifted
> class? Ugh. Gifted classes also have the
> tortured genius type who has never, ever been told
> no by a parent and is already a self-involved,
> conceited arse. GT classes also get the crazy
> smart kids (with emphasis on the crazy) with
> unbelievable discipline and behavior problems.

+1.

The students and quite honestly the teachers in AAP are a bizarre lot. The kids may be smart, but they are far from normal, well adjusted kids. The discipline stories my kid brings home are amazing - just bizarre stuff. Fire starters, kids obsessed with knives and cutting, kids that roll around on the floor all day, kids that walk to the front of the class and fart during a lesson, etc. It's like you can check any kind of social adjustment at the door in an AAP class. The teachers are equally wacky - some of the stuff they put into e-mails is wild. We had one e-mail earlier in the year shitting all over some parents by name (not me) for complaining about some assignment.

I like the academic environment for my kid since it really does push him, but it's sad that in order to get that he needs to go class every day with a bunch of whackos. The screening process is also a joke and I think it's gamed heavily by parents doing test prep and moving around between schools. It would be better if they upped the expectations for all of the curriculum's versus having AAP. And the way that all of the social basket cases are put off in AAP probably doesn't help them much either.

Another point that a lot of AAP parents don't realize is that there is a big jump in homework and academics from 2nd to 3rd grade--even in the "regular" classroom.

A lot of AAP parents judge the "regular" schoolwork based on first and second grade. The demands on the kids really kick in at 3rd grade-no matter where they are.

From my point of view, I think that many AAP kids are deprived of the opportunity to be "leaders" because they are isolated from opportunities in the "regular" class. I think that if the classes were of a reasonable size that most kids do better when they are in a "mixed" class. They learn to get along with others and adjust to different situations. A good teacher should be able to challenge any GT student in his/her class. The few extremely gifted could be in a center program--I don't think there would be more than a couple of centers in FCPS if that were the criteria.

Well these last two post sure threw me for a bit of a loop! I was sort of looking forward to getting the top students out of my child's class (and hoping they would definitely be in AAP) and keeping my child in gen ed. My child already feels "less smart" because some of the advanced learners really are so advanced that they finish everything first and get A's on everything. It's a difficult bar for the average youngster to realize isn't an "average bar" of learning. I'm glad FCPS differentiates kids into AAP and Gen Ed, but agree that some of the gen ed lessons could definitely be pumped up and made more interesting - especially FCPS' science curriculum. THAT is not impressive at all!

Uh Oh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well these last two post sure threw me for a bit
> of a loop! I was sort of looking forward to
> getting the top students out of my child's class
> (and hoping they would definitely be in AAP) and
> keeping my child in gen ed. My child already
> feels "less smart" because some of the advanced
> learners really are so advanced that they finish
> everything first and get A's on everything. It's
> a difficult bar for the average youngster to
> realize isn't an "average bar" of learning. I'm
> glad FCPS differentiates kids into AAP and Gen Ed,
> but agree that some of the gen ed lessons could
> definitely be pumped up and made more interesting
> - especially FCPS' science curriculum. THAT is
> not impressive at all!


General Education should be re-titled SOL Only. If it's not in the SOL syllabus, it's not taught. SOL is the be-all end-all of General Education. And once the tests are taken in April/May it's party time. Movies and field trips for the last 25 or so teaching days of the year. FCPS's interpretation of the SOL's is that they are the entirety of what needs to be taught - not a minimum standard to be met.

Also unpleasant in regards to GT/AAP; the parents are insufferable and when you meet a parent of an AAP child and discover that your children attend the same school....wait for it...in about five seconds, the AAP parent will ask who your kid's teacher is and if a "regular/base" teacher's name is given, he or she will just about write you off. You might as well just say that student gets a reduced/free lunch; the horror and disgust is palpable.

Why not let your gifted child live and learn among the regular/average/normal/base kids? This is not how the real world operates. Honestly, these GT parents think there's some pot of gold at the end of the GT rainbow. What is the ultimate purpose of GT? Entrance into TJHSST? Acceptance at an ivy league or public ivy? Graduating a valedictorian? A bullet on a college application? Really?

Life is the great equalizer; these lil geniuses are not all becoming intellectual giants and titans of industry.

Is there any data out there about how the non TJ "center" students perform in the "regular" high schools?

I can look around anecdotally, but there's not much information about these kids.

For example: What percentage graduate with Honors?
What percentage are National Merit finalists? What percentage are commended?
How do they perform on AP tests when compared with the general population?
Social problems?
College acceptances?
SAT scores?

Since these kids are identified when they are 7 years old, it would be interesting-and perhaps valuable to FCPS-to see if they were correctly identified.

It would be even better if they could be compared with a "test group" that "just missed" getting in the center.

This is how decisions in education are supposed to be made. Based on studies and statistics.

data please has very good suggestions. It would also be interesting to know the data for students who were placed in the AAP center based on test scores and those placed on appeals. Are there more of one or the other who go to TJ? What are the statistics for them in the "regular" high schools?

There is certain data that always goes missing in the system. It's amazing how they will just say "we can't get that data".

data please Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is there any data out there about how the non TJ
> "center" students perform in the "regular" high
> schools?
>
> I can look around anecdotally, but there's not
> much information about these kids.
>
> For example: What percentage graduate with
> Honors?
> What percentage are National Merit finalists?
> What percentage are commended?
> How do they perform on AP tests when compared with
> the general population?
> Social problems?
> College acceptances?
> SAT scores?
>
> Since these kids are identified when they are 7
> years old, it would be interesting-and perhaps
> valuable to FCPS-to see if they were correctly
> identified.
>
> It would be even better if they could be compared
> with a "test group" that "just missed" getting in
> the center.
>
> This is how decisions in education are supposed to
> be made. Based on studies and statistics.


I think you'll be looking for a long time for that kind of longitudinal data that tracks AAP from inception to graduation. AAP is a self-reinforcing structure - every year they induct the top 10% of rising 3rd graders, who immediately join a very vocal parental constituency to demand more things AAP. AAP teachers, administrators and parents have already decided the students are gifted - no further analysis or study is required or welcome.

They could start with data from the Middle school GT centers. I realize it would not be complete--but it would be a start.

Has anyone ever suggested giving another test in 6th grade to determine middle school students. I realize that some kids "join" then--but do any ever "drop" back?

I am sure there is data from center/non-center to TJ---does anyone have the link for that?

Anecdotally, I know Center kids who did NOT do well in high school--and others who did.

I think it is stunning that our "stellar" FCPS does not follow the data. What do all those people in Gatehouse actually do? Or, is the data "close hold" because they don't want to share it?

It just seems to me that these centers have gotten out of control. And, they do cost money.

I'd really like to see data showing how gifted education, particularly in the elementary grades, benefits the students throughout their academic careers. I'm a huge skeptic.

I'm a product of FCPS, circa the 70's and 80's. My sister was identified as gifted in 1976 through a new FCPS "gifted and talented program." She was pulled out of class with a few others and they did more advanced (creative?) work more as an enrichment, then went back to their classes. Is my sister smart? Yes; she graduated from high school with honors and went on to a top-tier university.

Youngest sister followed a decade later and was also considered "gifted" in FCPS. Yes, she is/was smart, but in a different way. She ended up on the college track in high school but would never have been able to get into the same colleges as our oldest sister.

I'm married to a "gifted" FCPS graduate who indeed dropped out of the g/t classes in sixth grade because he hated feeling "different" and thought that the curriculum was just too high-pressure and he wanted to be with peers and not segregated. I love this man, but am I awed by his brilliance? Hell, no. I married an intellectual equal, I'd say - we each have our gifts.

Again, I contend this is "designer" education and really a means to an end. Millions of dollars are spent in FCPS on GTAAP curriculum, centers, teachers, etc. and there is really nothing to show for it.

Unfortunately, the lobby for this program is huge. A lot of the parents have an inflated idea of how much "smarter" their children are than others.

Funny, one parent at a meeting years ago carried on about how we needed this program so that "our" "regular" kids wouldn't be upstaged and disturbed by their "gifted" children who would be "bored" in "regular" classes. She was quite vocal and almost insulting. Ironically, her son ended up in my child's "regular" high school, and, while I don't know how well he did, he was not an Honor graduate, and I don't recall my child ever mentioning how "smart" he was. I'm not sure if he even took AP classes.

I know this is deviating from the topic, but I'd like to address the criticims of AAP parents which are largely unfair. I think there is a mistaken view that AAP gets more than its share of FcPS resources. That is not true. Special Ed and ESOL kids suck up way more. I have children in both Gen Ed and AAP. I actually feel the AAP kids more or less get shortchanged with very large classes and only one teacher. My gen ed child is in a level appropriate to her skills. And so is my AAP child. It would be a mistake if they were both in the same class and neither would challenged appropriately. I don't know that AAP's lobby is any more powerful than any of the other parent advocacy groups. Look at the Real Food people. They just secured $200K for study of our cafeteria food (which I support) during a very tight budget year. It's unfair to target AAP parents simply because they want what is best for their child/children. We should all advocate for our children's needs.

Gen Ed'er who likes AP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know this is deviating from the topic, but I'd
> like to address the criticims of AAP parents which
> are largely unfair. I think there is a mistaken
> view that AAP gets more than its share of FcPS
> resources. That is not true. Special Ed and ESOL
> kids suck up way more. I have children in both
> Gen Ed and AAP. I actually feel the AAP kids more
> or less get shortchanged with very large classes
> and only one teacher. My gen ed child is in a
> level appropriate to her skills. And so is my AAP
> child. It would be a mistake if they were both in
> the same class and neither would challenged
> appropriately. I don't know that AAP's lobby is
> any more powerful than any of the other parent
> advocacy groups. Look at the Real Food people.
> They just secured $200K for study of our cafeteria
> food (which I support) during a very tight budget
> year. It's unfair to target AAP parents simply
> because they want what is best for their
> child/children. We should all advocate for our
> children's needs.

I think you have to look at the way the SB usually approaches cuts. What's the first thing floated - AAP or one of it's variants (Immersion, etc). Why? Because while a minority, they are vocal and organized. My favorite is the Fairfax Association for the Gifted - the name alone is so pompous.

It trickles down to the kids - I was in a presentation in an AAP class where the kids had to get up and give a 5 minute powerpoint on themselves. Half the kids defined their lives by when they got into AAP. One girl gave a presentation that included her SOL scores - I guess the old saying that pride goeth before a fall got lost some place for AAP kids.

Mrs. Harumph Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GT/AAP is a scam. What's the point of advanced
> classes for third graders? Something's rotten
> here; there is just know way that FC is a breeding
> ground of little geniuses. Quite the opposite.
> FC is a breeding ground for over-achieving,
> type-a, hyper-vigilant, high-pressure,
> status-seeking parents. To have a child (or two
> or five) in FC gifted program gives an air of
> exclusivity and a nice accompaniment to travel
> sports teams, multiple extra-curricular activities
> and a child-focused life.
>
As a parent to an AAP student, there is a difference. The the non-AAP classes, the teacher has to teach at multiple levels - some kids are bright and motivated while others are difficult learners. The pace is, in large part, dictated by the abilities of the difficult learners.

In AAP, it is assumed that everyone learns well and grasps the materials easily or can master it. So, they teach at a quicker rate and teach more advanced materials. 3rd grade AAP basically teaches 4th grade level and starts into 5th grade. A lot of non-AAP 3rd graders cannot hack that level.

-----------------------------------------------

"...your suffering will be legendary even in Hell!"

Check your mail box today. The result came in.

Pinhead the Cenobite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> As a parent to an AAP student, there is a
> difference. The the non-AAP classes, the teacher
> has to teach at multiple levels - some kids are
> bright and motivated while others are difficult
> learners. The pace is, in large part, dictated by
> the abilities of the difficult learners.
>
> In AAP, it is assumed that everyone learns well
> and grasps the materials easily or can master it.
> So, they teach at a quicker rate and teach more
> advanced materials. 3rd grade AAP basically
> teaches 4th grade level and starts into 5th grade.
> A lot of non-AAP 3rd graders cannot hack that
> level.

+1

My AAP school has thirty kids in some classes. This concerns me.

I know everyone will rave about their AAP school but I wish some parents would tell the truth.

Is it really worth it?

My child will be bussed away from our neighborhood and friends. I am not a parent who needs bragging rights.

FFXParent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pinhead the Cenobite Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > As a parent to an AAP student, there is a
> > difference. The the non-AAP classes, the
> teacher
> > has to teach at multiple levels - some kids are
> > bright and motivated while others are difficult
> > learners. The pace is, in large part, dictated
> by
> > the abilities of the difficult learners.
> >
> > In AAP, it is assumed that everyone learns well
> > and grasps the materials easily or can master
> it.
> > So, they teach at a quicker rate and teach more
> > advanced materials. 3rd grade AAP basically
> > teaches 4th grade level and starts into 5th
> grade.
> > A lot of non-AAP 3rd graders cannot hack that
> > level.
>
> +1


Minus 1000. The problem is that there are too many kids in the AAP classrooms that don't belong there. Parents have figured out how to prep their kids for the second grade test and these kids end up in AAP where they don't belong. Then the parents pay a doctor of stupidity to label them with a learning disability and demand an IEP so the kid can survive with the students who deserve to be there. The other children see right through that, leading to the kid becoming a social outcast. Then the parent whines that their kid is being discriminated against because of his disability, and the class has to meet with the guidance counselor for sensitivity training. It's pretty easy to get the kid through sixth grade in AAP, but once they get to middle school where teachers have 150 students pass through their classroom every day it's impossible to provide the artificial support the parents could obtain in elementary school.

I have seen this too many times in Fairfax schools. While we would like to help the kid, as it's not his fault that the parents are destroying him, there just isn't enough time in the day to do it without seriously impacting the classroom for the other students. So we fill out the forms, and document the differentiated instruction. And count the days until we can pass him to the next grade level.

WRONG: you are partially right. There are too many kids in AAP (GT) classes that don't belong there, and it is a nod to FCPS to the parents who want to brag about nothing. Real GT has real pathology and real GT is less than 1% of the population (.008%) and at that end of the continuum you also have other issues and THATS why they need a real special program with real trained teachers and curriculum, not just anybody who wants to teach at GT class with no training or idea how its done. What you end up with is just big classes with more meaningless seat work, which is actually counterproductive for the real GT kids and there are a few and they suffer and burn out on this innappropriate stuff. Real GT curriculum taught by trained specialists (no training required in FCPS) looks entirely different, is more engaging, more interesting, not just more volume of crap. I have seen the difference, we had ONE real trained GT teacher with a Masters degree, she was fantastic but NOTHING like what we get in FCPS teachers who just pile on more dumbass homework. I wish they would read a book. This doesn't have much to do with parents-they want the best for their kids. The program is grossly flawed and almost invites parents to jockey for it. They make it a subjective and flawed process for getting in as well. (peer review, give me a f-ing break) We need a real GT program for the kids who actually need it because they are really in trouble, developing personality disorders with the amounts of dumbass homework to do that has nothing to do with enrichment and just causes behavior disorders.

Does anyone have a review of the GT center at Willow Springs?

> Pinhead the Cenobite Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > As a parent to an AAP student, there is a
> > difference. The the non-AAP classes, the
> teacher
> > has to teach at multiple levels - some kids are
> > bright and motivated while others are difficult
> > learners. The pace is, in large part, dictated
> by
> > the abilities of the difficult learners.
> >
> > In AAP, it is assumed that everyone learns well
> > and grasps the materials easily or can master
> it.
> > So, they teach at a quicker rate and teach more
> > advanced materials. 3rd grade AAP basically
> > teaches 4th grade level and starts into 5th
> grade.
> > A lot of non-AAP 3rd graders cannot hack that
> > level.


Let me get this straight: It is okay for "regular kids" to be in multi-level classes with difficult children--but it is not okay for high achieving kids to be put with "difficult" children????

I taught school and I will tell you that gifted children can be challenged by a good teacher without being separated from the mainstream. I will say that the very highly gifted (the .008) might need to be in centers--but that is not what is happening in FCPS.

Unfortunately, FCPS has taken mainstreaming of "difficult" children way too far. I believe in mainstreaming when it is practical--but it makes classroom management quite difficult in some circumstances. I am not talking about the child who needs extra help in math or reading--but the child who needs help with everything all the time. I once had in my class a very low functioning autistic child who would suddently start screaming and would not stop until he was removed from the environment. He was not served well and the other children were not served well by his presence in the classroom. It was disruptive and upsetting-and happened on a daily basis. I don't have all the answers, but I do think that the classroom environment is important.

I have a question: Why should low functioning children be mainstreamed but not high functioning?

Again, I do believe in mainstreaming when practical and when it works. I do not think it is fair to a class of children to have to adapt to constant disruption. I do think it is good for children to learn to be compassionate and work with those who are less talented and fortunate. However, if the goal of our educational system is to educate children in skills and prepare them for the workforce, we need to evaluate what is holding them back.

I don't like classes of more than 30--but if any classes are going to be that size, it makes sense to do it with the high achievers. I speak from experience.

Willow Springs GT Center review- have had two kids go through GT (I refuse to call it AAP---the clinical term is gifted and FCPS can't create their own terms and reality) at WS. One word: SUCKS. First kid I transferred out because it was soooo lame and second one labored through. The worst GT program in FCPS and thats saying alot. Just a total waste of time.

In terms of mainstreaming- low functioning should be mainstreamed for social interaction because it is necessary and enhances their ability to function socially. One of the major characteristics of real GT (IQ over 140) is difficulty in social settings, and problems with anxiety-they over think, over analyze everything. So when morons in FCPS put them in mainstream environments it creates real anxiety. Health class, for example, with all of its dumbass warnings (don't do sex, don't do drugs don't live) is taken literally by these kids, they obsess-so they end up internalizing the message to the extreme, they not only follow dumbass rules but worry about them and follow to the letter, making their lives miserable. it really is damaging. Thats why we need the least restrictive environment that really takes this into account, which is nothing like what we have where anybody just teaches same old shit, but more of it.

My question to Suprema:

So, it's okay for the "regular" classrooms to be disrupted, but not the GT?

As far as your description of the typical GT student, I agree that some fit that characteristic--but, most kids resent being told the same thing over and over. Kids of "normal" IQ also resent dumbing down. Frankly, I don't think that most kids currently in FCPS GT -or AAP-fit the description.

From years of experience, I think most children--including GT--benefit from being in diverse, mixed classrooms. It helps all children learn to adapt, and any teacher should be able to deal with it as long as there are not a lot of disruptions. Frankly, a good teacher can help a GT child who doesn not fit in learn to work with others and not be so "anxious". It also prevents that huge disappointment when they don't get in TJ.

Thank you. This entire thread had reinforced my decision to take my child out of FCPS.

former teacher: well coming from a position of being a therapist for over 30 years I can tell you that I am getting really really sick of teachers and their amateur diagnostics. They aren't trained in mental health issues at all, yet they continue to send perfectly normal kids to therapists with their arm chair quarterbacking, which, unfortuneately, parents don't know enough to say, "wait a minute, you know NOTHING", which is what they should say. Every kid in FCPS should have a better education, they are mandated to differentiate, teachers are evaluated (or should be) based on this) I do consulting for other educ systems that do actually mandate and enforce that instructional style be differentiated, in FCPS you take what you get and shut up about it, no matter who or what your kid is.The reality is special ed gets plenty of attention and funding, but not GT kids who really get nothing but the added positive byproduct of being with others like themselves, which is at least a little, they don't get a superior product, they don't even get a different curriculum generally and teachers just pile on the work, which actually creates mental illness in this population. If they would bother to read the literature they would get it, they don't.

I love your honest answer on WS. My child was already moved once when Liz Bradsher closed her school and moving again does not seem worth it.

yep not worth it, when they get to high school they have to take exactly the same classes anyway...

again to Suprema:

First, my comments are addressed to the elementary level. I do think tracking is necessary in high school and probably in middle school.

I guess my main concern is that since FCPS is now putting so many children in AAP and mainstreaming so many lower functioning children tht it is detrimental to the "average" child who gets no help-but has to adjust to a classroom which includes children with severe problems. Have you looked at the number of students in the AAP centers? It is skewed way over what I learned is the normal curve--even for a county like Fairfax.

Once upon a time, the lower kids were pulled out--federal laws stopped that. Why should the high achieving children be pulled out and segregated from the other children. Shouldn't they be mainstreamed as well?

My personal view is that mainstreaming is a good thing-unless it is disruptive to the class. But, mainstreaming should work at both ends--not just to put low achievers in with middle children. From my experience, high achievers can also benefit from being with others. I really think that isolating GT kids violates Public Law. Now, if the kid is so anxious that he cannot adapt to a regular classroom, that is a different issue--and a result of other problems, not necessarily high IQ.

I just don't see any common sense in the way FCPS runs this progrm. Most of the kids in this AAP program are not very highly gifted.

I just did a quick review of some statistics from FCPS membership site.


There are approx. 39,500 3rd-6th graders in FCPS.
8424 students are in AAP Level IV centers.

That's pushing 25% of the pool. That has to include lots of kids who don't belong. Far from highly gifted.

Suprema-You are full of shit...and that isn't a statement that I ordinarily use. It is all well and good to make touchy feely statements like "Every kid in FCPS should have a better education". The reality is that with a system as large as FCPS, and with only so much money to spend per student, you are only going to be able to offer a certain number of different educational levels.

I do agree that the real GT number is well below the number of kids in the GT program. The idea that GT represents a pathology that have other issues is incorrect, and obviously is intended to promote your mental health bias. GT should be for those kids whose ability to learn is so far superior to other kids of their age that the only alternative to special programs would be to advance the kids several grade levels. Now this group can include those who have "other issues" (those who in GT lingo are often referred to as "doubly gifted"). Where these other issues do exist, quite often the they are issues that should be addressed by the child and family outside of the educational process. If some overachiever has social anxiety issues when having to perform in a "normal" classroom, let the kid deal with it with their shrink at their own expense.

If you want to understand why GT is exploding, the reasons are fairly simple:
1) GT kids are not burdened by the obligation to mainstream Special Ed and ESL students;
2) GT classes are more likely to be taught to the level of the typical classroom student, while regular classes are more likely to be taught to the level of the lowest performing student;
3) GT students are not used as pawns for teachers agreeing to take disruptive or underperforming students, and disruptive or underperforming students can be shifted out of the GT program;
4) GT programs are so widely available that it imposes no special obligation on the parents to send the kids there, and the opportunities offered within GT programs are at least as good or better than those offered to regular classes; and
5) GT programs are better set up towards getting kids into the advanced programs at the high school level that will appeal to colleges, and are more likely to encourage students to develop the skills to perform well in those programs, making it more likely they will get into better colleges.
In this sense GT accomplishes the goal of providing the students in it with an education appropriate to their educational ability. The problem is that it is an opportunity not provided to other students.

former teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's pushing 25% of the pool. That has to
> include lots of kids who don't belong. Far from
> highly gifted.

One half of the students at Stone Middle School made Honor Roll last quarter.

Somethin' ain't right.

If the GT teachers were all gifted and outstanding it would be one thing but that is not the case today in FCPS. Many times a teacher is promoted to the GT level and their skills go down. Why is this I do not know. Maybe GT parents are harder to deal with.

Parental Opinion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> former teacher Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That's pushing 25% of the pool. That has to
> > include lots of kids who don't belong. Far from
> > highly gifted.
>
> One half of the students at Stone Middle School
> made Honor Roll last quarter.
>
> Somethin' ain't right.

47% of the kids in the 5th grade at my sons elementary school (Langley pyramid) are in GT. Just bizarre.

Maybe the genes are better in McLean.

to be eligible for GT placement (first level screening) you must have an IQ (per Otis Lemmon or CAT or other) showing above about 132 (changes every year) that would constitute GT regardless of where you live nationally, if 25% are in GT centers this would mean that FCPS just has alot of GT kids, not likely though. and to Bill: spoken like a parent who doesn't know what he's talking about, and probably is angry that his kid didn't get in.

If there are so many GT kids (47% in one class as mentioned above), it seems like the so called regular class where they would go would have plenty of reason to be "upgraded" by the teacher there. Can't teachers just adjust to the reality of their clientele? If 25% of the class is GT, that is enough to provide enhanced lessons. Some of the other students would also benefit (the upper middle and close to GT kids or kids who have special abilities in certain subject areas). ???

We didn't have GT when I was a kid in elementary school. The kids who were ahead were allowed to take reading class with the librarian (and she had some really good books and discussions with us). We were also given different math assignments. We were pretty good at going ahead without the constant help of the teacher. We helped each other. I didn't grow up in a wealthy area. We really didn't know anything about Otis Lemmon or CAT or IQ's. We just knew we were better readers and the school helped keep us moving ahead.

Sorry to burst your bubble but all my kids were in GT, and we were in FCAG for a while. (Only good thing I have to say about FCAG was that they used to have an excellent summer camp fair at Oakton HS.) However none of my kids were gifted and talented-they were just above average students who were well prepared when they got to kidergarten, worked hard and did well on tests. Not all of us are deluded about our kid's true talents and abilities. In those days I think you could get your kid in with a certain score or if your kid got a slightly lower score parents could have their kid placed in the program. Not sure how the parent placement worked but I did have a couple of neighbors who did it.

the problem is that it takes a whole system approach, not just some enrichment which is a joke (as is the pull out program), it is just something for parents to feel like their kid is getting their tax dollars worth. The real GT kids need real special programs, again-not the just smart ones. And there is, in fact, as self fulfilling prophecy effect, kids placed in the GT center, who socialize with other GT kids do get smarter and have a completely different experience and perspective when they get out, (not because of a better program, the program sucks), but because they have been with kids (usually Asians) who are all about working hard, doing well. Not sure what the end of that is, if it is good or not, just see that it is completely skewed.

Please give on honest answer to their GT program.

I gave you an honest answer, long term with more than one student, from a professional perspective. It is a waste of time, not a real program- the only benefit is being with other GT kids.

Here's another fact; look at the GTAAP classes. Notice anything odd? That's right, the classes are predominately Asian and Asian Pacific Islanders and Indian, in that order. Can you imagine the backlash if a regular class had no minority students? Outrage! Charges of racism! Charges of segregation! That's what we are doing here in GTAAP. Are you a WASP kid in GTAAP? Look around, you are a minority.

Something's rotten here - you could claim that Asian students are smarter, have cultural and familial pressure that emphasizes academic success, but now they have their own classes?

Yes, I think you are on to something here...

The tests ARE in fact skewed to the asians, asian pacific islanders, and indians.
If only our kids knew of Chinese, Korean, Tongolese, Hindi, and Punjabi, THEN we'd have a fighting chance.

BTW, where are all of these Pacific Islanders??? I have yet to see scores of Samoans, Tongoans, Polynesians, or Micronesians.

People,

Get real. These tests for the AAP are compromised. Kids are going in Kindergarten to "prep" courses for the IQ tests. One staff member told me that one of the kids said -"oh, this is the test I took in Mr. _____'s class"

I don't care who you are, 25% of the kids in FCPS are not truly gifted.

There are so many unintended consequences of this program that are not good:

It makes it more difficult to staff schools and even out class size--this is why some of the classes in Great Falls were so out of proportion--it is a matter of numbers.

Kids are identified far too early--some kids bloom later.

Kids are being bussed out of their communities--more expensive transportation costs--and segregation from their communities.

Some of the GT kids would benefit from being "the smartest kid in the class."

The "regular" kids end up in classes with a higher %age of Special ed kids than if it were spread out.

We live in a diverse world--all kids need to learn to live with and get along with all kinds of people-including those less gifted.

And "A simpler time" is right. There are many ways to accomodate these kids without segregating them. I understand why you may want them to have the social experience of being with other GT kids--but that may not always be the best thing for them.

As far as the GT kids benefitting socially, that may be true--but are you sure?

Is there any data to support this? I think it could be argued both ways.

Also, is there any data to justify these centers? How do these kids do in high school vs the regular population? Has a comparison been done -perhaps using the scores of those who "just miss" or choose not to go to a center. How do the center kids do on the AP tests vs those who did not go to the center. How many are National Merit (exluding TJ)? How many are commended? How do the SAT's compare?

We know all of those should automatically be higher--but is there a significant difference? It would be hard to design such a study but it could be done. It would have to be done backwards: take the National Merit and commended National Merit and compare how many went to a center and how many didn't.(Leave out TJ). Take the Honor Grads and compare. It would be expected to have a higher percentage of center kids--but is it dramatically higher? It should be expected to be higher whether they went to a center or not.

Then work it in reverse. Take the center kids and see how many are National Merit and how many are AP scholars, etc.

Does FCPS do this? If they do, it should be shared. If they don't, then shame on them.

Ms. Harumph Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's another fact; look at the GTAAP classes.
> Notice anything odd? That's right, the classes are
> predominately Asian and Asian Pacific Islanders
> and Indian, in that order. Can you imagine the
> backlash if a regular class had no minority
> students? Outrage! Charges of racism! Charges
> of segregation! That's what we are doing here in
> GTAAP. Are you a WASP kid in GTAAP? Look around,
> you are a minority.
>
> Something's rotten here - you could claim that
> Asian students are smarter, have cultural and
> familial pressure that emphasizes academic
> success, but now they have their own classes?

These folks skew themselves. While you have your kid dancing, or playing piano, or playing a sport, the Asians have their kids in prep classes for the CogAT and NNAT. Take a look around next time you are at any team sport or activity - virtually no Asians. They know they have to have some activity for college admissions, so they always choose individual sports or activities (swimming, tennis, piano) that can be managed around school work. (Odd coming from a Confucian, collectivist culture).

There's no way the tests are skewed, not today. And even when you could argue that it was skewed (Johnny left the yacht basin traveling at 10 knots - how far did he travel in 2 hours?, or Car:Limosine as Dinghy:?), it sure as hell wasn't skewed to Asians.

Asians will prep their kids, move schools, sacrifice sports/activities - whatever - for the education of their kids. They also live 3 generations to a house to save money - how many do think went through foreclosure in the last few years? The people bitching on FFXU about the asian invasion of FCPS could learn a lot from them - there's nothing they are getting out of FCPS you couldn't get with the same kind of focus and sacrifice.

don't hate the playa- you had me until you made your case at the end that caucasians could "learn alot from asians", as I read your rant I felt just the opposite, what the tiger moms and dads are doing to their kids is highly detrimental to their mental, emotional and physical health. The bad part is that they are the norm in this system and to get any kind of decent programming the regular or smart kids have to keep up with them and abandon a normal life. The super smart, gifted kids (at the extreme end of the bell curve) need a special program and should not be mainstreamed. Unfortuneately, or fortuneately whichever way you look at it, FCPS is full of regular smart kids in the GT Centers.

My point in regards to GTAAP and ASians was not to criticize the Asian students, parents and/or the culture, but to show that a reverse discrimination seems to be at play. You'll find very, very few Caucasian children in the GT classes.

I'd be willing to venture a guess that out of say three white children in the class, two (probably boys) will be certifiably socially maladjusted/weirdos and the other one will be an anxious, tortured genius.

Scam! Scam! Scam!

What GT center school is almost all Asian? All of them? Interesting.

Ms. Harumph Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You'll find very, very few
> Caucasian children in the GT classes.
>


A bit of an overstatement I think - over 40% of my child's AAP class are white kids. Every school and class is different though I suppose.

There are only 3 Asians kids out of 24 in my daughter's 3rd grade AAP classroom. It may be different in other schools, but our school is not predominantly Asian.

agree Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> data please has very good suggestions. It would
> also be interesting to know the data for students
> who were placed in the AAP center based on test
> scores and those placed on appeals. Are there
> more of one or the other who go to TJ? What are
> the statistics for them in the "regular" high
> schools?
>
> There is certain data that always goes missing in
> the system. It's amazing how they will just say
> "we can't get that data".


I think the school board put honors classes back in the high schools so there are 3 or more options. AP, honors, gen ed, remedial. Why aren't these options available in the elementary schools? Seems like elementary kids are stuck in regular or AAP. If older kids need a bunch of choices, why don’t the elementary kids?

no child left behind Wrote:
>
> I think the school board put honors classes back
> in the high schools so there are 3 or more
> options. AP, honors, gen ed, remedial. Why aren't
> these options available in the elementary schools?
> Seems like elementary kids are stuck in regular or
> AAP. If older kids need a bunch of choices, why
> don’t the elementary kids?

Elementary school students sort of have three overlapping levels of instruction, notwithstanding labels that suggest there are two. There are Level IV Center classes, Local Level IV (base school) classes and general education classes.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Elementary school students sort of have three
> overlapping levels of instruction, notwithstanding
> labels that suggest there are two. There are
> Level IV Center classes, Local Level IV (base
> school) classes and general education classes.

And pull-out options (Level II and Level III).

youma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what the tiger moms and dads are
> doing to their kids is highly detrimental to their
> mental, emotional and physical health.

Fair enough if that's your opinion - but you are sticking your head in the sand. This is not the 1950's anymore. We are competing against the world, an unless you want your kid to come up short in the age of globalization, I think you need to understand that standards and expectations have changed. You can go on lamenting that fact and saying you won't buy in to it, or you can go about preparing your kid for the world they will live in. You can look down your nose at them as 'tiger' moms, but 20 years from now when your kids look up at the scoreboard, they will find they are way behind. Maybe they can go live in one of those Occupy tents, tho.

It isn't my opinion, there are plenty of research studies (if you doubt this, I would provide if requested, but I don't think that will help your stubborn need to be right), anecdotal information and just plain common sense will tell you that a balanced life is what is critical to human development, human beings, including children are not just plastic sponges to soak up arbitrary information. My kids are all successful, (Ivy League) because I monitored NOT participating in this crappy system and NOT trying to compete with mentally ill standards of tiger parents.

Wrong. "Tiger parenting" is harmful to kids. And it is messing up our school system (and already creates chaos in places like New York City). We need an across the board new national approach to education; but things like standardized testing prep classes for 6 year olds is absurd.

youma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It isn't my opinion, there are plenty of research
> studies (if you doubt this, I would provide if
> requested, but I don't think that will help your
> stubborn need to be right), anecdotal information
> and just plain common sense will tell you that a
> balanced life is what is critical to human
> development, human beings, including children are
> not just plastic sponges to soak up arbitrary
> information. My kids are all successful, (Ivy
> League) because I monitored NOT participating in
> this crappy system and NOT trying to compete with
> mentally ill standards of tiger parents.

Ivy League = Successful. Shallow much?

don't hate the playa: jealous much? Let me guess you went to Radford...you made a disparaging and untrue comment about my kids, so sorry, I need to correct

youma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> don't hate the playa: jealous much? Let me guess
> you went to Radford...you made a disparaging and
> untrue comment about my kids, so sorry, I need to
> correct

I didn't make a comment about your kids, I made it about you. Sad you have to transfer any criticism to your child versus accept it as a criticism of you.

The Ivy's were placing 25% - 50% of their graduates in Wall Street in the 2005 - 2008 timeframe - that worked out so well for us. Perhaps the value system necessary to place one's child in an Ivy is also what allows that child to dream up subprime mortgages and such. I'd rather hire someone from a state school that knows how to hustle versus some over indulged Ivy graduate. I've had both work for me, and I can tell you the Ivy graduates are ones standing around waiting to be rewarding just for getting that diploma.

You know what's really funny? FFX county spends the extra $ on "gifted" programs w/the expectation that there will be returns - those students will be of benefit to the community at large...
All well & good, save the fact that recently three proud former GT students of FCPS were hired at..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
Best Buy - Fair Lakes.

Tell me how such programs are a benefit again?

dont hate the playa: well fortuneatly kids who go to Ivys will not be going to you for jobs, it will be the opposite, as the people who actually learn something by getting out of dumbass Virginia where more time is spent learning about Virginia History than a global economy, the well prepared surpass you and will be your supervisor. I wouldn't send my dog to school in Virginia

Jess1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Tell me how such programs are a benefit again?


Absolutely. I think we should just follow the lead of our country's founders and get rid of anything they didn't have back then. We can have fire signs on our houses like they used to do back then, and if you can't afford to pay for the fire sign and you have a fire, we can just watch the house burn down. It would be a great way to clear out some old housing, don't you think? We could have a whole new form of HOT lanes.

VOTE RON PAUL!

sgsfg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dont hate the playa: well fortuneatly kids who go
> to Ivys will not be going to you for jobs, it will
> be the opposite, as the people who actually learn
> something by getting out of dumbass Virginia where
> more time is spent learning about Virginia History
> than a global economy, the well prepared surpass
> you and will be your supervisor. I wouldn't send
> my dog to school in Virginia

curious how the resumes keep showing up tho.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/maryland-considers-new-rules-for-gifted-and-talented-student-programs/2012/02/24/gIQAHdSPcR_allComments.html#comments

GT at 3 yrs old in MD! Can't wait til this comes to FCPS........Does this mean we will have SP ED buses running through the neighborhoods picking up our special needs GT kids?

Certainly, kids with problems need special attention and preschool help--but GT?

well the schools in Maryland consistently outperform Virginia schools, so maybe its a good idea

delores Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well the schools in Maryland consistently
> outperform Virginia schools, so maybe its a good
> idea


Bullshit- try here - http://nces.ed.gov/ - MD and VA are consistently in the top 10 states no matter the age group/subject, and trade places back and forth for who scores better. You can make a good argument that they are basically the same in achievement. And that's with MD spending 13K+ per student, and VA spending <11K per student. But, you know, why add facts to the argument.

http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/09f33pub.pdf

check out the challenge index and US NEws and Report list, Maryland has innovative schools, VA schools, and FCPS in particular are dropping down the list by the dozens every year.

He is an asshole. I can't wait till he leaves. He really did NOTHING for FCPS.

frankh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> check out the challenge index and US NEws and
> Report list, Maryland has innovative schools, VA
> schools, and FCPS in particular are dropping down
> the list by the dozens every year.


Jay Mathews can take his Challenge Index and stick it. He's a reporter - nothing more. He's in love with IB - don't like or keep pushing it, you get knocked down the list. Read his column from a couple weeks back about IB at Mt. Vernon - the entire column is about how Mt. Vernon won't make the cut cause some admin flunky wasn't signing kids up to take the IB test. Really? The entire evaluation of the schools is based on the number of kids taking a test? He's a joke, and sadly the FCPS administration jumps whenever he writes anything. Read the column - it's like he's scolding small children.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/mount-vernon-highs-ib-testing-slips/2012/02/16/gIQADHOXMR_story.html

If parents aren't involved (and clearly they aren't or they would make sure their kids were signed up for these classes) and it's up to one person in the school (the IB coordinator in this case) to recruit students into higher level classes, the school is skating on very thin ice. As the NCLB "genuises" have also found out, you can't legislate success (or anything else for that matter) from above; it has to come from the grassroots level. This country is full of examples of people who have tried to "change" things by issuing edicts only to have them fail. I don't get why they don't learn from these idiotic power intoxicating forays into "thus it shall be" land.

Jay Matthews had a good idea a few years back---the idea that taking AP and IB courses was a meaningful way to prepare for college. However, like the NCLB targets, the more people you "push" into these classes, the less meaningful they become. You start to get people there for the wrong reasons (to pump up numbers for an "index") and the whole effort is a sham. Just look at how many students really pass these exams (which is not part of the Jay Matthews index) and you will see what is really going on. If a kid is not ready for college in high school, it should not mean the high school is not a great school. The high school is supposed to get the kid ready for college---it isn't supposed to put the kid into college. If the high school is challenging each kid in an appropriate way, then it is doing a good job. Jay Matthews needs to find a new way to measure success for people.

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Suprema-You are full of shit...and that isn't a
> statement that I ordinarily use. It is all well
> and good to make touchy feely statements like
> "Every kid in FCPS should have a better
> education". The reality is that with a system as
> large as FCPS, and with only so much money to
> spend per student, you are only going to be able
> to offer a certain number of different educational
> levels.
>
> I do agree that the real GT number is well below
> the number of kids in the GT program. The idea
> that GT represents a pathology that have other
> issues is incorrect, and obviously is intended to
> promote your mental health bias. GT should be for
> those kids whose ability to learn is so far
> superior to other kids of their age that the only
> alternative to special programs would be to
> advance the kids several grade levels. Now this
> group can include those who have "other issues"
> (those who in GT lingo are often referred to as
> "doubly gifted"). Where these other issues do
> exist, quite often the they are issues that should
> be addressed by the child and family outside of
> the educational process. If some overachiever has
> social anxiety issues when having to perform in a
> "normal" classroom, let the kid deal with it with
> their shrink at their own expense.
>
> If you want to understand why GT is exploding, the
> reasons are fairly simple:
> 1) GT kids are not burdened by the obligation to
> mainstream Special Ed and ESL students;
> 2) GT classes are more likely to be taught to the
> level of the typical classroom student, while
> regular classes are more likely to be taught to
> the level of the lowest performing student;
> 3) GT students are not used as pawns for teachers
> agreeing to take disruptive or underperforming
> students, and disruptive or underperforming
> students can be shifted out of the GT program;
> 4) GT programs are so widely available that it
> imposes no special obligation on the parents to
> send the kids there, and the opportunities offered
> within GT programs are at least as good or better
> than those offered to regular classes; and
> 5) GT programs are better set up towards getting
> kids into the advanced programs at the high school
> level that will appeal to colleges, and are more
> likely to encourage students to develop the skills
> to perform well in those programs, making it more
> likely they will get into better colleges.
> In this sense GT accomplishes the goal of
> providing the students in it with an education
> appropriate to their educational ability. The
> problem is that it is an opportunity not provided
> to other students.


I agree. I've had kids in the old GT and one was twice exceptional [what educrats call gifted with a disability]. This program is out of hand and should be abolished with services provided at local schools.

Kids can be re-grouped for math across the entire grade level or even other grades. I had others in regular ed and didn't see enough difference to merit the busing.

Middle school is ridiculous. The schools are huge and each one could have 3 levels of classes- regular, honors, advanced.

The problem is FCPS has used some centers to fill up schools without affecting base school boundaries. Kilmer. Then FCPS built capacity at Longfellow to house some from Cooper. Other Cooper go to Kilmer.

I think Strauss [most likely had some involvement] putting level 4 academics in all classrooms in the mclean pyramid is a good thing. I like the post where some one said regular ed can be SOL only. I'd also get rid of TJ-technology is no longer a novelty.

FCPS is too top heavy. The real work is done at the school.

I know a school where the new gal in charge hides in her office all day. She should be out and about greeting the kids each morning and getting to know the teachers.

She is in Clifton. HA ha. Not the real Clifton.

Guess the school?

I agree that the local level 4 stuff is a waste. They should cut down on the number of level 4 centers, reduce the number of kids that qualify as gifted, and improve the general ed curriculum.

" agree that the local level 4 stuff is a waste. They should cut down on the number of level 4 centers, reduce the number of kids that qualify as gifted, and improve the general ed curriculum."


+100

Third grade is too soon for a GT placement center school. I had a child in a GT center and pulled her out. She was doing good but missed her classmates and friends. It was too much too soon. She loves her current school now and is HAPPY.

Now for all of you that love the GT center that is OK too. I just think we need to allow kids to be kids.

No Tiger mom here Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She was doing good but missed her classmates and friends. It was too much too soon.
> She loves her current school now and is HAPPY.
>
> Now for all of you that love the GT center that is
> OK too. I just think we need to allow kids to be
> kids.


+100

Listening to what the kid wants! YAY!

I blame Jack Dale: I do too, but he is going to around to finish out his contract, I understand that he is never there and is physically vacant anyway. Is it Union Mill?

Jack Dale was at UMES on Monday. No one knew why. Jerk. When is he leaving?

It's their 20+ year effort to do away with GT centers with their ultimate goal of "proving" that all students are equal. No student is smarter or more motivate than another student. Teach them all at the same low level and that will be "proven". Viola! No more achievement gaps! Everyone is mediocre!

Suebonnetsue said:

It's their 20+ year effort to do away with GT centers with their ultimate goal of "proving" that all students are equal. No student is smarter or more motivate than another student. Teach them all at the same low level and that will be "proven". Viola! No more achievement gaps! Everyone is mediocre!


Sue, No teacher should be teaching a class at the lowest level.

In my experience, I taught kids ranging from way behind grade level to way above. No one thought they were all the same. However, they are all equal in that they deserve to be taught well. I am not sure about 5th or 6th grade, but I do think 3rd or 4th is way too young to separate the kids--there are too many who are still blossoming.
Any good teacher should be accomodating all the kids in the class. If you are teaching VA History, you can study the events and assign different tasks according to the child's ability--that is not hard for a teacher to do.(My US History teacher did that in high school.) Math can be taught at different levels. Reading is easily accomodated by level.

With technology, there are so many available materials and opportunities for meeting each child's needs.

As I've said before, there may need to be centers for the very highly gifted--but not the wholesale AAP classes we have today. It's a joke.

"Viola! No more achievement gaps!"


I think SueBonnetSue has figured it out! Give them a viola and they will advance.

let's all play together Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Viola! No more achievement gaps!"
>
>
> I think SueBonnetSue has figured it out! Give
> them a viola and they will advance.

Hahaha! Well played! Good thing the band and orchestra parents were successful in keeping that program funded!

Regarding the achievement gap:

There are two ways to close an achievement gap--push down from the top or bring up from the bottom.

Every teacher should be working to inspire, push, prod, and pull each child he/she teachers as far as he can academically.

The term "achievement gap" should be eliminated from our vocabulary.

former teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Regarding the achievement gap:
>
> There are two ways to close an achievement
> gap--push down from the top or bring up from the
> bottom.
>
> Every teacher should be working to inspire, push,
> prod, and pull each child he/she teachers as far
> as he can academically.
>
> The term "achievement gap" should be eliminated
> from our vocabulary.

SOL testing is starting this week. I can already see that new content is gone from math - it's all review in preparation for the SOL's now. And this in a GT class. And once SOL's are done in another month or so - no more new work for the year!

A couple of you illustrate why there needs to be real special ed for truly GIFTED, not just smart-there are behaviors, special needs and pathologies in this population and anyone who has worked with real gifted kids can spot one in a three minute conversation. The attributes are well documented in the literature, it isn't up for an argument. The reason why this category was created initially is because it exists and simply "skipping grades",which is what they used to do (and what I did) doesn't work for these kids, they are socially and emotionally different.

dorrhy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A couple of you illustrate why there needs to be
> real special ed for truly GIFTED, not just
> smart-there are behaviors, special needs and
> pathologies in this population and anyone who has
> worked with real gifted kids can spot one in a
> three minute conversation. The attributes are well
> documented in the literature, it isn't up for an
> argument. The reason why this category was created
> initially is because it exists and simply
> "skipping grades",which is what they used to do
> (and what I did) doesn't work for these kids, they
> are socially and emotionally different.

+1

dorrhy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A couple of you illustrate why there needs to be
> real special ed for truly GIFTED, not just
> smart-there are behaviors, special needs and
> pathologies in this population and anyone who has
> worked with real gifted kids can spot one in a
> three minute conversation. The attributes are well
> documented in the literature, it isn't up for an
> argument. The reason why this category was created
> initially is because it exists and simply
> "skipping grades",which is what they used to do
> (and what I did) doesn't work for these kids, they
> are socially and emotionally different.

Sounds like another douche from the Fairfax Association for the Gifted - goes by FAG i think. 'I'm gifted - you're not'. Stop sucking up my tax dollars - if you are so 'gifted' I'm sure you'll do just fine without a government subsidy.