Interesting study that was just released by the Commonwealth. It focuses on the tax revenues generated by these illegal immigrants who are supposedly coming here to "destroy our culture".

http://www.dailypress.com/business/dp-biz_immigrantcontribution_02feb15,0,6457453.story

(just thought I'd give people something to argue about in here, something other than the fact that their kids will soon be forced to attend south lakes... :))



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2008 09:27AM by TheMeeper.

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting study that was just released by the
> Commonwealth. It focuses on the tax revenues
> generated by these illegal immigrants who are
> supposedly coming here to "destroy our culture".
>
> http://www.dailypress.com/business/dp-biz_immigrat
> ioncontribution_02feb15,0,6457453.story
>
> (just thought I'd give people something to argue
> about in here, something other than the fact that
> their kids will soon be forced to attend south
> lakes... :))

wasn't FFX undertaking a proper financial impact study on the cost of services to illegals earlier this year

didn't they abandon it part way through

presumably they didn't like the answers

I don't think anyone has ever doubted that even illegals pay taxes in one form or another - sales tax, protions of their rent/mortgage, and a few pay income tax. But the study is not a true cost benefit analysis, as it only looks at the benefit. Even assuming the high end of their estimate of $453 million, does that come close to offsetting the costs associated with illegal immigration in VA. The cost of educating illegal immigrant students and the children of illegal immigrants is estimated to be $452.9 million in VA. That brings us pretty close to the total of the benefit in taxes. We have yet to include health care costs, incarceration costs, displacement of non-illegal immigrant workers (this includes native born and legal immigrant labor). I am sure these totals more than make up the remaining $100K, and remember we are using the high side numbers of this study. Incarceration costs are estimated around $5.8 million and health care costs are estimated around $4.9 million. Health care costs would be higher if not for many charitable orginizations, but thankfully they are araound. This study is as atrocious as those on the other side of the debate that indicate what the cost is without explaining that there is a benefit. A study that does not intertwine benefits with cost is intellectually dishonest.

Cornerstone - you are correct - the study is intellectually dishonest.

What bothers me on the cost/expense/burden side of the ledger is that we have, although difficult to easily quantify, significant numbers of immigrants (most of whom are illegal, or ahem, undocumented) that have very little desire or capacity to assimilate into mainstream American society - mastering English among them. Accordingly, unlike with past immigrant groups, there is the dismal prospect of the considerable burdens continuing on an inter-generational basis. Our immigration policy, like it or not, should be focused on permitting those who can contribute to the American ideal, and generate intellectual and human capital. What is happening now is contrary to that concept, and will impose costs over a non-transitory period of time that will dwarf any tax revenues received.

quantum,

I will return the favor and say you are correct as well. While my post dealt strictly with numbers, I am in 100% agreement with you on your assessment. Quality of life issues, of which many are aware of here in FFX, are not as quantifiable, unless we look at depreciating property values due to neighborhoods deteriorating because of overcrowding, paving over lawns, and increased petty crime to include public urination, public intoxication, and graffiti. And, quite honestly, there would not be quite the backlash sentiment around if newly arrived illegal immigrants did make efforts to assimilate. Not saying give up their own heritage and culture, but at least learn to become a part of their new surroundings of which they CHOSE to place themselves.

"few pay income tax"

That's actually bullshit. Most do pay income tax. The law requires employers to have documentation for the workers. While most of the documentation may be forged, employers are still paying state and Federal taxes for these employees, including Medicare and Social Security.

Sure, there are a few contractors out there paying cash under the table. But most illegal immigrants are employed by major companies in the construction, restaurant and lodging industries. Ryan Homes isn't paying these people under the table. Neither are Marriott, McDonald's or any other employers concerned about complying with the letter of the law (regardless of how badly that law may be written).

WashingToneLocian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "few pay income tax"
>
> That's actually bullshit. Most do pay income tax.
> The law requires employers to have documentation
> for the workers. While most of the documentation
> may be forged, employers are still paying state
> and Federal taxes for these employees, including
> Medicare and Social Security.
>
> Sure, there are a few contractors out there paying
> cash under the table. But most illegal immigrants
> are employed by major companies in the
> construction, restaurant and lodging industries.
> Ryan Homes isn't paying these people under the
> table. Neither are Marriott, McDonald's or any
> other employers concerned about complying with the
> letter of the law (regardless of how badly that
> law may be written).

The fact is that you have no idea how many pay income taxes. I contend that it is few in relation to other segments of society. It is hilarious that you point out what the law requires. Last I checked, the law prohibited people from coming to this country illegally. That has worked out well so far. If you think employers are following the law, you are delusional. Further, there are more than just a few working under the table cash jobs - there are nannies, house cleaners, day laborers, etc. Many landscaping crews are paid as 1099 contractors. If they never file a return, nobody pays taxes. The fact is, nobody know how many are not paying taxes. Why? Because they are undocumented. Undocumented means nonexistent to the IRS. It is also funny how you choose only to refute one small statement.

Cornerstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
It is
> also funny how you choose only to refute one small
> statement.


I chose to refute one small statement because I don't need to bother with the rest of your bullshit.

As for the employers not following the law, the law is pretty simple. They need to get a driver's license and a Social Security card from the employee. That is it. There's nothing in the law that says the employer needs to verify that the driver's license and Social Security number are legit. It's a pretty easy law to follow.

I don't disagree that there are illegals being paid under the table. But more than just "a few" are paying income taxes.

WashingToneLocian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cornerstone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> It is
> > also funny how you choose only to refute one
> small
> > statement.
>
>
> I chose to refute one small statement because I
> don't need to bother with the rest of your
> bullshit.

I can see how facts that get in the way of your less than logical way of thinking might be considered "bullshit." If you don't believe that both sides of the equation need to be explored in order to be intelligently debated, it demonstrates that you really could care less about facts.

> As for the employers not following the law, the
> law is pretty simple. They need to get a driver's
> license and a Social Security card from the
> employee. That is it. There's nothing in the law
> that says the employer needs to verify that the
> driver's license and Social Security number are
> legit. It's a pretty easy law to follow.

Most laws are pretty easy to follow. Just because they are easy to follow doesn't mean they are not violated.

> I don't disagree that there are illegals being
> paid under the table. But more than just "a few"
> are paying income taxes.

We have no idea just how many are paid under the table. Because they are undocumented, it is difficult to ascertain a reliable number. Also, you can give someone false information to complete a 1099 and the payer/"employer" will think it is legit, but the recipient won't pay taxes on it.

WashingtonToneLocian - your responses reflect a lack of balance and context. Whatever the number of illegal immigrants paying taxes - and they of course exist - there are also considerable numbers not doing so or failing to file. Think this is not a big issue? Put it into the context of the typical middle class citizen - part of a group that bears a very considerable portion of this nation's tax burden - and think just of what happens if that person wilfully fails to file his/her income taxes on April 15. Do it for a few years in a row (without seeking tax assistance and complete repayment of all penalties and interest), and you can face criminal prosecution. Don't you get it? Working and middle class citizens/stiffs have to abide by the law on pain of losing our liberty, and yet because of paternalistic and silly open borders type notions about so many illegal immigrants, immigrants are supposed to (and in fact) get a pass on these burdens? And we are seriously considering awarding these folks with amnesty? And we are happily still supposed to welcome these folks, who place a significant drain on our health care and educational systems and will do so for years to come? There is a fairness issue here, and failing to address it reflects a lack of balance.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WashingtonToneLocian - your responses reflect a
> lack of balance and context. Whatever the number
> of illegal immigrants paying taxes - and they of
> course exist - there are also considerable numbers
> not doing so or failing to file. Think this is
> not a big issue? Put it into the context of the
> typical middle class citizen - part of a group
> that bears a very considerable portion of this
> nation's tax burden - and think just of what
> happens if that person wilfully fails to file
> his/her income taxes on April 15. Do it for a few
> years in a row (without seeking tax assistance and
> complete repayment of all penalties and interest),
> and you can face criminal prosecution. Don't you
> get it? Working and middle class citizens/stiffs
> have to abide by the law on pain of losing our
> liberty, and yet because of paternalistic and
> silly open borders type notions about so many
> illegal immigrants, immigrants are supposed to
> (and in fact) get a pass on these burdens? And we
> are seriously considering awarding these folks
> with amnesty? And we are happily still supposed
> to welcome these folks, who place a significant
> drain on our health care and educational systems
> and will do so for years to come? There is a
> fairness issue here, and failing to address it
> reflects a lack of balance.


I'm not talking about the individuals. The employer pays the payroll taxes! Whether or not the illegal immigrant files is irrelevant.

Cornerstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> We have no idea just how many are paid under the
> table.

Yes, we don't. So stop saying "few" when you don't fucking know.

And just look who produced this study.
http://www.bvbl.net/index.php/2008/02/15/the-illegal-alien-lobby-produces-a-faulty-study/#more-2058

After I lock up the silver, I need a maid. Where is their daily hangout and what's the going rate?

Quote

RICHMOND - Illegal immigrants contribute hundreds of millions of dollars to Virginia's economy annually in taxes, according to a study released Thursday by a group hoping to counter some anti-illegal-immigrant sentiment in the legislature.

i would like to point out that a) this is information from richmond, the new jersey of VA and b) a study that isnt by a third party, isnt worth jack. if you recall Microsoft's "Get the Facts" program, you will remember that it's full of shit.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

This organization is not a government agency although their name might suggest it. The makeup of the organization is fairly left leaning and very pro on increasing taxes. It appears they foster a rich vs poor agenda. I read several of their "reports" and found them to be playing loose with the facts and coming to conclusions not based on facts but based on their opinion.

If you take a little time to read their full report you will see they conclude that illegals pay their share of state and federal income taxes. I disagree as their economy is based on cash not W2's and 10-99's.

To come to the conclusion that illegals pay all their with holding taxes you would have to believe that they go to the government and hand over the amount that should have been with held on their cash salary. I just do not see that happening.

I will just provide their website and let you draw your own conclusion.

http://www.thecommonwealthinstitute.org/pages/About.html

You dont have anything better to do then blame other people...thats all you have to look forward to in your life....

I told you to draw your own conclusion dummy. You are like the media that reported on the organizations findings. No investigation at all of this group just a cut and paste of their findings. No questioning of the so called facts just total acceptance. And why not since it fits into the Posts pro illegal agenda.

Hi.

I just robbed a bank and I want to invest my money. Which mutual will yield the best earnings?

Love that investing in Herndon real estate flop house Connection article. My guess is some businesses have 2 legals and they bring "friends" to job sites who get paid cash. Go to Burlington in Sterling - one time there it had people working the register who could not open a drawer for change. You had to pay with a credit card or go to 1 line. The person in that line said the other people could not make change even when the register told how much.

I suspect most poor people take in more from the government in services than they pay in taxes.

Illegals pay taxes if a W-2 is filed for them. If not, no taxes. They pay sales taxes unless they are 100% underground (something I suspect might be difficult to do in Fairfax.)

What I question is an immigration policy that seems to roll out the red carpet for low-skilled workers and puts many barriers in the way of high-skilled workers.

On the other hand, I question the assertions from the 'illegals are ruining our lives' lobby:
(1) that the current crop of immigrants is 'unwilling to assimilate'
(2) deporting 12 million people or even 500,000 people is somehow feasible
(3) that the other illegals would simply go home without a fuss if their economic prospects dried up.

What about health safety? There was one woman in Arizona where they face unusual conditions regarding immigrants who was protesting on the news by wearing a face mask. She said that immigrants were employed in restaurants and because they were illegal anyway did not have to undergo TB tests. She felt they were a threat to public health by not undergoing the tests and so wore a face mask in protest. I wonder about conditions here in Fairfax County? Dose the county test it's illegal immigrant restaurant workers or do they like Arizona figure they are so illegal anyway why bother?

One thing I've wondered about here in Fairfax County that Spike Williams brought out in his recent campaign for supervisor is that Prince William and Loudon county is actively discouraging illegal immigrants while Fairfax is not. Will this result in even more immigrants coming to Fairfax County as a result?Democrats who predominate in our governance are accused or wanting more immigrants who it is hoped will vote democratic and give them even more votes.

Democrats here in Fairfax County are not like democrats in Europe who might be described as Social democrats where as Democrats here might be described as business democrats. Well if so the Democrats here if indeed encouraging illegals to gain more votes are as ruthless as the old robber barons in achieving there goals which would seem to be just more votes, not the preexisting and in some cases lowly paid blue collar workers in this country.

One problem, besides possible TB and more Democrat votes is the working conditions of millions of Americans who cannot hope to get relief because there are millions of illegals coming to take their job if they don't want to work that way. I feel and many people do that we should be concerned about the conditions of those Americans who previously were already here.

the easiest way to guarantee illegals pay taxes...is to legalize them.

Rod, unless the restaurant was paying these people 100% under the table, your story (or her fears) seems unreasonable. If you could give a link to a decent news article about this (as opposed to rumors on vdare.com or weloveillegals.com -- I don't know the hysterical pro-illegal analogue to vdare.com.)

Seems to me you would just give them the test on Day One of their employment and if they come up positive, bye-bye. If a restaurant isn't doing that with their illegal workers, they're probably not doing it with ANY of their workers.

This is a test someone with TB would fail even if Maria Hernandez became Maria Ruiz or Niall O'Garritty became Niall Stephens (we gotta give the love to our non-Hispanic illegals too!)

Joe G. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This organization is not a government agency
> although their name might suggest it. The makeup
> of the organization is fairly left leaning and
> very pro on increasing taxes. It appears they
> foster a rich vs poor agenda. I read several of
> their "reports" and found them to be playing loose
> with the facts and coming to conclusions not based
> on facts but based on their opinion.
>
> If you take a little time to read their full
> report you will see they conclude that illegals
> pay their share of state and federal income taxes.
> I disagree as their economy is based on cash not
> W2's and 10-99's.
>
> To come to the conclusion that illegals pay all
> their with holding taxes you would have to believe
> that they go to the government and hand over the
> amount that should have been with held on their
> cash salary. I just do not see that happening.
>
> I will just provide their website and let you draw
> your own conclusion.
>
> http://www.thecommonwealthinstitute.org/pages/Abou
> t.html


well..I am always suspicious anytime the Catholic Church is involved in anything...no doubt there is an agenda to this organization which leans toward supporting the illegals...but what the heck...that doesnt mean they have lied.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the easiest way to guarantee illegals pay
> taxes...is to legalize them.


You're stupid.