HomeFairfax General ForumArrest/Ticket SearchWiki newPictures/VideosChatArticlesLinksAbout
Fairfax County General :  Fairfax Underground fairfax underground logo
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: A Voter ()
Date: November 27, 2011 10:09PM

"Senators McCain and Levin have teamed up to promote one of the most anti-liberty pieces of legislation of our lifetime, S 1867, the National Defense Authorization Act. This bill would permit the federal government to indefinitely detain American citizens on American soil, without charge or trial, at the discretion of the President. It is destructive of our Constitution." ~ Justin Amash

Of course Jihad Gerry Connolly voted in favor of it on 26-May-2011. Connolly votes in favor of the Patriot Act too. Time for him to go.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2011/roll375.xml

http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/senators-demand-military-lock-american-citizens-battlefield-they-define-being/

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: Alpha Male ()
Date: November 27, 2011 10:32PM

Anything the ACLU opposes, I'm inclined to support. And vice versa.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: wnrsm ()
Date: November 27, 2011 10:48PM

ACLU = American Criminal Liberties Union

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: Cap'n America ()
Date: November 27, 2011 10:53PM

Alpha Male-I used to think like you on this issue, and some components of it I still like. However, at the base of it, it would indeed allow the government to detain anyone (which would include me) on a charge of "terrorism" without due process as it is described by the constitution, which, come to think of it, I don't like. Hmmm, funny how that works.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: Pissed ()
Date: November 27, 2011 11:49PM

How dare the government try to trample on our rights like that. Is the constitution turning into a nothing more than a useless piece of paper? This bastard Connolly needs to go now!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: dont be a terrorist ()
Date: November 27, 2011 11:58PM

Cap'n America Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alpha Male-I used to think like you on this issue,
> and some components of it I still like. However,
> at the base of it, it would indeed allow the
> government to detain anyone (which would include
> me) on a charge of "terrorism" without due process
> as it is described by the constitution, which,
> come to think of it, I don't like. Hmmm, funny how
> that works.


Dont associate terrorists or do terrorist things and you will be fine

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: Dosnt matter who's who ()
Date: November 28, 2011 02:46AM

> Dont associate terrorists or do terrorist things
> and you will be fine

_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-


That's akin to saying:

Well, if I'm not doing something wrong, then I have nothing to worry about..


That's bullshit...

That's like having a LEO pulling you over, telling you that you were speeding - and although you may have not been speeding; the officer's radar hit the wrong car and he mistakenly pulls you over..

You insist that you were going the posted speed limit.. cop tells you either prepay or go to court,.. you either pay it, or go to court and tell the judge your story.. and in the meantime, your fine now doubled - you will be found guilty..
Let's guess, chalk this up to "being at the wrong place, wrong time - shit happens" category..


ALL because you wanna be a pansy and let your freedom slip away - Move to Somalia if you feel that "Dont associate terrorists or do terrorist things and you will be fine"

People like you and of your ilk are what's wrong with this country.. Please get out - Leave the country the way it was before you 'too-do-gooders ruin it for my children and friends..

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: no ()
Date: November 28, 2011 02:58AM

Dosnt matter who's who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Dont associate terrorists or do terrorist
> things
> > and you will be fine
>
> _=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-_=
> -_=-_=-_=-_=-_=-
>
>
> That's akin to saying:
>
> Well, if I'm not doing something wrong, then I
> have nothing to worry about..
>
>
> That's bullshit...
>
> That's like having a LEO pulling you over, telling
> you that you were speeding - and although you may
> have not been speeding; the officer's radar hit
> the wrong car and he mistakenly pulls you over..
>
> You insist that you were going the posted speed
> limit.. cop tells you either prepay or go to
> court,.. you either pay it, or go to court and
> tell the judge your story.. and in the meantime,
> your fine now doubled - you will be found guilty..
>
> Let's guess, chalk this up to "being at the wrong
> place, wrong time - shit happens" category..
>
>
> ALL because you wanna be a pansy and let your
> freedom slip away - Move to Somalia if you feel
> that "Dont associate terrorists or do terrorist
> things and you will be fine"
>
> People like you and of your ilk are what's wrong
> with this country.. Please get out - Leave the
> country the way it was before you 'too-do-gooders
> ruin it for my children and friends..


No its people like you thats whats wrong. Let me explain something to you. Unlike local cops the government is not everywhere. They are chasing down terrorist leads constantly. The only way this would be used if your name somehow gets mentioned over seas or from some money trail theyd been following. If you arent doing anything wrong you really have nothing to worry about. They arent going to make you disappear for no reason. We dont live in North Korea or Iran. We wouldnt take lightly grabbing a US citizen, but if one is guilty of helping terrorists like if you get picked up on a battle field somewhere you shouldnt be treated the same as someone who committed a crime in the US.

All this oh big brother just wants to get me and people will disappear left and right is absurd. If you have no connections to terrorists you will be fine period. They have much more important things to be doing and it is in no way shape or form like getting a speeding ticket. Nice fear tactic though. Everyone said the same thing about the Patriot act and guess what everyones phone didnt get bugged and people didnt just start disappearing. What a surprise

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: no ()
Date: November 28, 2011 03:07AM

And just for the hell of it I am a big supporter of freedoms. Im not a supporter of terrorists. This is not an attack on my personal freedom. This is a tool for stopping terrorism. I dont have terrorist ties, i dont support terrorists, and theres nothing Ive done that would lead people to believe other wise. I am not worried about this in the least bit, the only way it affects me is by catching more terrorists. Unless you have something to hide everyone else should feel the same way. If the government was so hell bent on making people disappear theyd disappear. They wouldnt need legislation to do it. We dont have that kind of government.

Im sorry that you are friends with terrorists which must be why you are so concerned. Nice job with the name calling too I am a pansy for wanting to fight terrorism. Internet keyboard warriors are always fun. All name calling does is make you look stupid and makes your argument even weaker.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: Hebrew Hammer Original ()
Date: November 28, 2011 08:18AM

no Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No its people like you thats whats wrong. Let me
> explain something to you. Unlike local cops the
> government is not everywhere. They are chasing
> down terrorist leads constantly. The only way
> this would be used if your name somehow gets
> mentioned over seas or from some money trail theyd
> been following.

It's painfully obvious that you don't work for the government




If you arent doing anything wrong
> you really have nothing to worry about. They
> arent going to make you disappear for no reason.
> We dont live in North Korea or Iran. We wouldnt
> take lightly grabbing a US citizen,

McCarthy ring a bell? Japanese Internment Camp? Suspension of Habeus Corpus during the civil war? Get off this land Tonto, it's got oil on it? Here's some blankets to keep you warm, don't mind the pus, you're just allergic to it.

Ever read a history book?





> All this oh big brother just wants to get me and
> people will disappear left and right is absurd.
> If you have no connections to terrorists you will
> be fine period.

Because the almighty government never makes mistakes, never screws things up, never inadvertantly does the wrong thing, never tests radioactive material on retarded kids in Ohio, never systematically sterelized inbreds in appalachia, never tested STD vaccines on black soldiers. That doesn't happen here, just in communist countries and nazi germany.



They have much more important
> things to be doing and it is in no way shape or
> form like getting a speeding ticket. Nice fear
> tactic though. Everyone said the same thing about
> the Patriot act and guess what everyones phone
> didnt get bugged and people didnt just start
> disappearing. What a surprise

The most important thing that the government should be doing is ensuring that my rights are protected.

one final thought - Can you find in any of this legislation the legal definition of a Terrorist? Aside from an arab with a bomb strapped to his chest and a pocket koran, what in the hell is a terrorist? Someone who's armed to the teeth and really doesn't like the government, and speaks out against it? You've just described most of Virginia outside of Fairfax county.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Benjamin Franklin
Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin (1818).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: village idiot ()
Date: November 28, 2011 08:32AM

I'm inclined to side with Alpha Male, if the ACLU is against it, I won't be. That is an organization that lost its way long ago,,,

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: Realist ()
Date: November 28, 2011 10:18AM

To "no" and "alpha male"-both of you are wrong. "no" I would tend to side with, however I would have worded it a lot different. All "Alpha Male" is doing is taking someones uneducated statements and countering them with extremes. Yes, the United States has done a number of questionable things in the past to accomplish things. Shit, we nuked two cities full of civilians to end a war. That's life. However trying to link the government's decisions in the 1860's, or even 1940's and 50's to our modern day government big brother it's way into every home in America and snatch up Joe Shmoe just because they want to is ridiculous. Like said before, if they wanted to do that, they wouldn't try and pass legislation for it. All those "Occupy" protesters that NOBODY can get rid of and seem to be spreading like hippie wildfire would have disappeared before they started. And to counter the last statement, letting this legislation pass would not be giving up essential liberty. If the government actually did start snatching people and we did nothing to stand up for ourselves, that would be. However, this isn't a Tom Clancy novel, you won't be abducted, assuming you aren't a terrorist you won't be targeted, your lives not that dramatic.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: no ()
Date: November 28, 2011 12:13PM

Hebrew Hammer Original Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Because the almighty government never makes
> mistakes, never screws things up, never
> inadvertantly does the wrong thing, never tests
> radioactive material on retarded kids in Ohio,
> never systematically sterelized inbreds in
> appalachia, never tested STD vaccines on black
> soldiers. That doesn't happen here, just in
> communist countries and nazi germany.

Yes Ive read many. Its obvious that you dont understand how times chance. What was allowed several decades ago is not considered acceptable anymore. Most people understand this. Back in the day it was considered acceptable by the medical community to use human subjects like that, again times chance. Come up with one thats happened in the last decade, or 20 years or 30 years. But you can keep dwelling on stuff that happened 50+ years ago

> The most important thing that the government
> should be doing is ensuring that my rights are
> protected.

How are your rights not protected? Out of the billions of people in the world what are you doing that makes you concerned you will end up on their radar. Why are you so convinced they will ever even know who you are. Again your using scare tactics like they will just make people disappear for no reason. If they wanted to do that they wouldnt say anything about it and would just do it. Its not how you leave out the part where there will be some sort of system to decide who gets to be a target or not. It wont just be someone in a room who will make the guy at starbucks disappear for not putting enough foam in his latte.
>
> one final thought - Can you find in any of this
> legislation the legal definition of a Terrorist?
> Aside from an arab with a bomb strapped to his
> chest and a pocket koran, what in the hell is a
> terrorist? Someone who's armed to the teeth and
> really doesn't like the government, and speaks out
> against it? You've just described most of
> Virginia outside of Fairfax county.

No owning guns and being opposed to the government doesnt make you a terrorist or a threat unless you are advocating over throwing it especially if advocating violently. Just having a gun and saying you dont like what Obama is doing doesnt make you a terrorist and no one would think that except for maybe some Barba Boxer type extremist.

There is no standard definition of a terrorist. The state department uses this definition which is a pretty good one "The term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant(s) target(s) by sub-national groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience. "


> Those who would give up Essential Liberty to
> purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve
> neither Liberty nor Safety.
>
> Benjamin Franklin
> Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin
> Franklin (1818).

Again allowing this bill doesnt mean Ive given up any liberty at all. I wont be getting shipped off to Gitmo. My liberties and freedoms will remain the exact same.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: rights ()
Date: November 28, 2011 02:13PM

Did anybody read the article in the Metro section of the Post the other day about a young man who served time for rape? The girl now says that she lied. He served time, is out and on the sexual predator registry. The state of VA is saying they won't give him a retrial? His life is screwed (not to mention the lives of his family members).

Is this the 40's or 50's (as mentioned above)? "This stuff doesn't happen anymore?" Really?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: no ()
Date: November 28, 2011 03:05PM

rights Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did anybody read the article in the Metro section
> of the Post the other day about a young man who
> served time for rape? The girl now says that she
> lied. He served time, is out and on the sexual
> predator registry. The state of VA is saying they
> won't give him a retrial? His life is screwed
> (not to mention the lives of his family members).
>
> Is this the 40's or 50's (as mentioned above)?
> "This stuff doesn't happen anymore?" Really?


Whats your point how is that relevant at all? That happens all the time. All that has to happen for that is there to be sex and the girl to say it wasnt her choice. Plenty of guys are in jail because girls didnt want their fathers to know they have sex. Again theres evidence that sex occurred. Are you concerned some terrorist is going to name you and have false evidence against you?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: mark j ()
Date: November 28, 2011 05:33PM

Obviously, AMericans are AGAIN asleep as our freedoms and liberty are about gone. This is the Communist regimes way (aka Obama and thugs) to nake this country a communist dictatorship.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! tHERE IS NO NEED FOR THIS LAW...WHY WAS IT PASSES???HMMM???
Just sayin'

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: no ()
Date: November 28, 2011 05:39PM

mark j Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Obviously, AMericans are AGAIN asleep as our
> freedoms and liberty are about gone. This is the
> Communist regimes way (aka Obama and thugs) to
> nake this country a communist dictatorship.
>
> WAKE UP PEOPLE! tHERE IS NO NEED FOR THIS
> LAW...WHY WAS IT PASSES???HMMM???
> Just sayin'

Im not a fan of his but this wasnt his doing. The reason the law was necessary is the number of americans who feel the need to go over and fight for the other side or that are being picked up in Syria and Egypt fighting to overthrow their governments. Does the name john walker lindh ring a bell? That was a disaster of what they had to do with him. Also a decent amount of terrorist money gets traced back to the US.

All this is is fake hysteria all over again just like the Patriot act. And just like the patriot act its not going to be used to make americans disappear for no reason. For everyone that thinks we live in some sort of police state trying to make people disappear you need to really look into what a police state actually is. If the government was going to use this to make people disappear for no reason they would just do it and not even bother to pass the legislation.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: messagetothesheeple ()
Date: November 28, 2011 05:48PM

If you think this is a good law that won't effect your liberty because you are not a terrorist you need to think about how one defines 'terrorist' and more importantly how the government defines 'terrorist.' I don't know the exact wording but it is scary how the government defines 'terrorist' very loosely. The way the word 'terrorist' is used could simply mean someone that doesn't like the government. Just imagine what this would mean for our freedom if the government started arresting people that spoke against the government. This new legislation makes it legal to arrest Americans without charging them with a crime so this scenario is not far fetched. BTW if you think our government would not abuse such provisions think again, our rights have always been abused by our government even before legislation like this or the Patriot act came along. Once freedom is taken away it does not come back.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: no ()
Date: November 28, 2011 06:01PM

messagetothesheeple Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you think this is a good law that won't effect
> your liberty because you are not a terrorist you
> need to think about how one defines 'terrorist'
> and more importantly how the government defines
> 'terrorist.' I don't know the exact wording but it
> is scary how the government defines 'terrorist'
> very loosely. The way the word 'terrorist' is used
> could simply mean someone that doesn't like the
> government. Just imagine what this would mean for
> our freedom if the government started arresting
> people that spoke against the government. This new
> legislation makes it legal to arrest Americans
> without charging them with a crime so this
> scenario is not far fetched. BTW if you think our
> government would not abuse such provisions think
> again, our rights have always been abused by our
> government even before legislation like this or
> the Patriot act came along. Once freedom is taken
> away it does not come back.

The patriot act didnt abuse our freedoms at all. It did what it was designed to do. You have to stop acting like this is the turn of the 19th century. The term terrorist under every definition implies someone who is trying to do harm to nnoncombatants. Protesting the government PEACEFULLY will not get you locked up. Threatening to try and overthrow it or use violence against it is already a crime anyway. No one defines a terrorist as someone who doesnt like the government or who supports a different party. Its only when they take the step to violence that someone would be endanger of being named one.

The state department defines it as "The term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant(s) target(s) by sub-national groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience. " That definition is found in a part of Title 22 of the United States code.

It will not be redefined to mean anyone who disagrees with the government like everyone is implying. Your life was in no way changed by the patriot act the same will be the case here. Its not going to be a free license to just snatch anyone. There will be a process in place to determine who is a candidate for such action.

But again you are all missing the big point. If the government really wanted to make someone disappear like you are implying thats what the underlying purpose of this is for, they would just do it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: u.s.a....... ()
Date: November 28, 2011 06:13PM

at what point does the government decide they are "taking a step toward violence"? There is no way to concretely know at what point that is happening. Does it mean aquiring lots of fertilizer and jet fuel? or could it merely mean going to certain web sites? I think people need to stop thinking the constitution should be treated as guidelines rather than rules. "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither" -Benjamin Franklin

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: no ()
Date: November 28, 2011 07:02PM

u.s.a....... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> at what point does the government decide they are
> "taking a step toward violence"? There is no way
> to concretely know at what point that is
> happening. Does it mean aquiring lots of
> fertilizer and jet fuel? or could it merely mean
> going to certain web sites? I think people need to
> stop thinking the constitution should be treated
> as guidelines rather than rules. "He who
> sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither"
> -Benjamin Franklin


Anyone who gets a ton of fertilizer and jet fuel and isnt a farmer that uses jets to crop dust should be heavily investigated. Just visiting a web site wont make someone disappear unless your looking at child porn. The fact is your not going to get on their radar without putting yourself there. People working with Al-Quaida should be in Gitmo. Hell even the people there get trials and released if they are deemed no longer a threat or not a threat.

How long as we going to keep up these fear tactics that its to make people disappear for ever never to be herd from again? This is getting like the 9-11 conspiracy theories where logic and facts are just ignored to try and shape something into what people want it to be. Theres going to be a process, they wont know you even exist unless you give them a reason, youll still get to argue your case to a military tribunal ect ect. Like the Patriot act your life will not be affected unless youre doing terrorist stuff or supporting it in which case I want it to find you

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: John Q Public ()
Date: November 30, 2011 12:53AM

Hebrew Hammer, you are correct and the others who can't see, refuse to the implication or usurping the final protection of our Constitution are sheep. They will be the ones whose standing last when they come to get them, while asking for help when there is no one left to help them.

To the person who said the Patriot Act has worked out fine, you have got to be kidding me. They said it would never be used in American's but that too was a lie.

Those of you who are ignorant of the liberties that were granted to you by God and the blood of others, don't deserve it. This law and others like the Patriot Act are being laid down to take your freedoms and what is left of the Republic. This is German 1930's all over again. You wait, mark my words, this is a precursor to Marshal Law. There is no definition of terrorist and this law is absolutely what Madison warned us against. It is unlawful to have the military acting as police, and this is what this law does. What will you do if you or your group is targeted as terrorist as the white Christian Southern man already has been because of his beliefs of the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment, right to bear arms afforded by the Constitution. Yes, the department of Homeland Security, has already targeted that group where their children actually make up the majority of our military. Terrorist can be anything or anyone the President say they are, including a foe to silence them, without due process. That means no lawyer, no right of judge or jury. You people better wake up to what is being systematically done to take away our liberties. Think about this, as we are fighting around the world for our freedom, let me ask you this, from who? Whose taking our freedom since 9/11 than those we have elected to Congress, Senate and President. I sure don't think it's the man on the camel in Kabul.
Those who voted for this law should be charged, prosecuted and sentence under the Constitution for treason.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: John Q Public ()
Date: November 30, 2011 12:59AM

We already have laws for this sort of thing in America. It is called criminal law. Domestic terrorism is nothing new and our laws have worked out just fine. The Constitution says persons, not any one group. Wait till that group is you. Until then, go back to watching Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer.


I am sure those who were slaughtered in the Holocaust would disagree with you. You fools who believe such things cannot happen in America are delusional. They did not believe the same in Germany, but it did. We are not immune to anything that has ever happen in the past, nothing. We are heading down the road where the Christians will eventually be on the chopping block. Those of you who claim to be Christians better start reading that book you carry to church. Otherwise, stop calling yourselves as such.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: no ()
Date: November 30, 2011 03:03AM

John Q Public Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hebrew Hammer, you are correct and the others who
> can't see, refuse to the implication or usurping
> the final protection of our Constitution are
> sheep. They will be the ones whose standing last
> when they come to get them, while asking for help
> when there is no one left to help them.
>
> To the person who said the Patriot Act has worked
> out fine, you have got to be kidding me. They said
> it would never be used in American's but that too
> was a lie.
>
> Those of you who are ignorant of the liberties
> that were granted to you by God and the blood of
> others, don't deserve it. This law and others like
> the Patriot Act are being laid down to take your
> freedoms and what is left of the Republic. This is
> German 1930's all over again. You wait, mark my
> words, this is a precursor to Marshal Law. There
> is no definition of terrorist and this law is
> absolutely what Madison warned us against. It is
> unlawful to have the military acting as police,
> and this is what this law does. What will you do
> if you or your group is targeted as terrorist as
> the white Christian Southern man already has been
> because of his beliefs of the Constitution and the
> 2nd Amendment, right to bear arms afforded by the
> Constitution. Yes, the department of Homeland
> Security, has already targeted that group where
> their children actually make up the majority of
> our military. Terrorist can be anything or anyone
> the President say they are, including a foe to
> silence them, without due process. That means no
> lawyer, no right of judge or jury. You people
> better wake up to what is being systematically
> done to take away our liberties. Think about this,
> as we are fighting around the world for our
> freedom, let me ask you this, from who? Whose
> taking our freedom since 9/11 than those we have
> elected to Congress, Senate and President. I sure
> don't think it's the man on the camel in Kabul.
> Those who voted for this law should be charged,
> prosecuted and sentence under the Constitution for
> treason.


It was used on Americans the deserved to have it used on them for the actions and things they were engaged in. Our freedoms in this instance arent being taken away. Worry more about the 2nd amendment not ways to fight terrorists. We will never be 1930s germany. People dont and wont get swept away in the middle of the night. And once again you like everyone else is ignoring the fact that IF the government really wanted to do that they would just do it.

And yes we have laws to prosecute terrorists in CIVILIAN court. Yea lets drag everything out and have multimillion multi year trials that the courts arent equipped to deal with while sources get outed and the slightest things can cause mistrials setting them free. Great idea

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: Radiophile ()
Date: January 07, 2012 10:38PM

John Q Public Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Those of you who are ignorant of the liberties
> that were granted to you by God and the blood of
> others, don't deserve it. This law and others like
> the Patriot Act are being laid down to take your
> freedoms and what is left of the Republic. This is
> German 1930's all over again. You wait, mark my
> words, this is a precursor to Marshal Law. There
> is no definition of terrorist and this law is
> absolutely what Madison warned us against.

It's Madison Time!



Fairfaxunderground rules: Lilliputions, not ok. Midgettville ok. I got it now.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: Weather_dud ()
Date: January 07, 2012 10:54PM

Hey look over there - Kim kardashian is fingering herself!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: Yes ()
Date: January 07, 2012 11:29PM

No-

I feel like I've debated you on here before on the same topic concerning rights being infringed upon by the federal government, whether aimed at a specifc demographic or not. The Constitution is the law of land. Any alteration to the rights that have been outlined in the Amendments (specifcally the first ten) is an attack on the American rights of citizenship. Therefore regardless of your affliation with the ragheads, you should be very concerned about the government taking away ANY of your rights.

This is yet another example of a law on the books that desperately need to be appealed. Just because its a law, doesn't mean its right.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: no ()
Date: January 07, 2012 11:45PM

Yes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No-
>
> I feel like I've debated you on here before on the
> same topic concerning rights being infringed upon
> by the federal government, whether aimed at a
> specifc demographic or not. The Constitution is
> the law of land. Any alteration to the rights that
> have been outlined in the Amendments (specifcally
> the first ten) is an attack on the American rights
> of citizenship. Therefore regardless of your
> affliation with the ragheads, you should be very
> concerned about the government taking away ANY of
> your rights.
>
> This is yet another example of a law on the books
> that desperately need to be appealed. Just because
> its a law, doesn't mean its right.


You might have.

But as Ive said before any right can be restricted or taken away if the government can show enough reason to do so. Hindering terrorism is more than a valid reason. Im all for rights and individual freedom ect, but everything has limits.

This isnt some wide spread restriction of anyones rights. Its a narrow law in nature aimed at a specific group of people engaged in actively trying to harm our country. Civilian courts arent the right place to have these trials with all the classified information and how intelligence sources would get burned and exposed during the process.

Plus its not like Obama can just say snag him and it happens. There is a review process to decide who gets affected by this. Im not worried in the least bit. The government has enough people to worry about that they arent going to go on wild goose chases of random people.

Finally the biggest thing that everyone is forgetting is that if the government did really want to abuse their power and make people disappear they would just do it. They wouldnt even bother passing a law if thats what their intentions were.

If they start attacking rights in a broad spectrum like taking away guns or something like that, thats the time to be concerned. This law is not one that should concern anyone but those trying to do us harm.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: Yes ()
Date: January 08, 2012 12:14AM

no Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You might have.
>
> But as Ive said before any right can be restricted
> or taken away if the government can show enough
> reason to do so. Hindering terrorism is more than
> a valid reason. Im all for rights and individual
> freedom ect, but everything has limits.
>
> This isnt some wide spread restriction of anyones
> rights. Its a narrow law in nature aimed at a
> specific group of people engaged in actively
> trying to harm our country. Civilian courts arent
> the right place to have these trials with all the
> classified information and how intelligence
> sources would get burned and exposed during the
> process.
>
> Plus its not like Obama can just say snag him and
> it happens. There is a review process to decide
> who gets affected by this. Im not worried in the
> least bit. The government has enough people to
> worry about that they arent going to go on wild
> goose chases of random people.
>
> Finally the biggest thing that everyone is
> forgetting is that if the government did really
> want to abuse their power and make people
> disappear they would just do it. They wouldnt
> even bother passing a law if thats what their
> intentions were.
>
> If they start attacking rights in a broad spectrum
> like taking away guns or something like that,
> thats the time to be concerned. This law is not
> one that should concern anyone but those trying to
> do us harm.

A) I definitely have.

B) No reason is a good reason.

C) This law does in fact give the President that power, hence the "at the President's discretion" piece.

D) If the government can get a law passed democratically, then why force it on people?

E) The bill is pretty broad spectrum as it gets. No need for evidence, lawyers, trial by juries, is a common pretext for more infringements going back to the Nazi Germany example, which is rather extreme however relevant. If you really think that just because you don't associate with terrorists, this law doesn't apply to you, then you're sorely mistaken. This can be applied to anybody, at any time, without the need of evidence, so as long as they are labeled a 'terrorist'. Doesn't this set off alarm bells in your head? As an American doesn't it upset you that the government even has the power to do so, quite literally, at will?

Am I fear mongering? Maybe, but so are the Congressman who passed this resolution into creation.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: no ()
Date: January 08, 2012 12:36AM

Yes Wrote:
> A) I definitely have.

Nice

> B) No reason is a good reason.

So you believe its okay for people on air planes to say they have a bomb or to yell fire in crowded buildings?

Because if you say no to that thats technically restricting free speech meaning you do believe in the limits of the rights which is what this law is.

> C) This law does in fact give the President that
> power, hence the "at the President's discretion"
> piece.

Hes not going to make random people disappear he doesnt even know our names. Theres a review panel anyway and theres already known US citizen terrorists on the kill lists. This law changes none of that.

> D) If the government can get a law passed
> democratically, then why force it on people?

They are passing it democratically. We dont live in a nation where everyone votes on every bill. Having it pass the senate and the house is how we do it so I dont really understand your point here.

> E) The bill is pretty broad spectrum as it gets.
> No need for evidence, lawyers, trial by juries, is
> a common pretext for more infringements going back
> to the Nazi Germany example, which is rather
> extreme however relevant. If you really think that
> just because you don't associate with terrorists,
> this law doesn't apply to you, then you're sorely
> mistaken. This can be applied to anybody, at any
> time, without the need of evidence, so as long as
> they are labeled a 'terrorist'. Doesn't this set
> off alarm bells in your head? As an American
> doesn't it upset you that the government even has
> the power to do so, quite literally, at will?
>
> Am I fear mongering? Maybe, but so are the
> Congressman who passed this resolution into
> creation.

No it doesnt bother me in the least bit because unless I work for the government I will never be on their radar. They arent everywhere at once. All it is, is applying the gitmo standards to us citizens who are terrorists. They arent going to hold random people or hold everyone for ever. Theres review panels for getting on the list and theyll probably end up in military tribunals where you can have a trial without exposing sources like you would in a civilian world.

Again if for some reason the government wanted you to disappear for no reason, you would. This law doesnt change that. If that was the true intention they wouldnt even make the law since all that does is draw attention to the issue. Our 24/7 media cycle and all of that basically assures that itll come out if someone gets taken because of this law. Wasting it on people they arent sure about is political suicide. We like to all think were very important, and we are to certain people, however the vast majority of people arent important enough to even be known by the government unless our actions put us on their radar.

Like I said im all for protecting rights ect but this isnt the battle to be fought when it comes to that. The day you should get nervous is the day they try and take away guns and thats when you can make the old tyrannical dictator comparisons because that is the first thing someone in a major power grab tries to do to make sure citizens cant stop anything

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: Yes ()
Date: January 08, 2012 01:28AM

no Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So you believe its okay for people on air planes
> to say they have a bomb or to yell fire in crowded
> buildings?
>
> Because if you say no to that thats technically
> restricting free speech meaning you do believe in
> the limits of the rights which is what this law
> is.

Another argument for another day. I'll rephrase that to stay on subject, no reason is a good reason to hold people indefintely.

> Hes not going to make random people disappear he
> doesnt even know our names. Theres a review panel
> anyway and theres already known US citizen
> terrorists on the kill lists. This law changes
> none of that.

Except before the government did not have the legal authority to hold their own citizens indefinitely. Now they do.

> They are passing it democratically. We dont live
> in a nation where everyone votes on every bill.
> Having it pass the senate and the house is how we
> do it so I dont really understand your point here.

Should I have said democratic republically? What don't you understand, why illegitimately use power when you can do so legitimately?

> No it doesnt bother me in the least bit because
> unless I work for the government I will never be
> on their radar. They arent everywhere at once.
> All it is, is applying the gitmo standards to us
> citizens who are terrorists. They arent going to
> hold random people or hold everyone for ever.
> Theres review panels for getting on the list and
> theyll probably end up in military tribunals where
> you can have a trial without exposing sources like
> you would in a civilian world.

But they can, LEGALLY, hold you forever. All they need is to label you a terrorist. No reprecussions because it's within the realm of the law.

> Again if for some reason the government wanted you
> to disappear for no reason, you would.

Which they can now, again, LEGALLY, do. Legitimately. No need to hide it.

> This law doesnt change that. If that was the true
> intention they wouldnt even make the law since all
> that does is draw attention to the issue.

So instead of drawing attention to illegal imprisonments, they go ahead and make it legal. Again within the realm of the law, so any imprisonment is therefore legally considered legitimate.

> Our 24/7 media cycle and all of that basically assures
> that itll come out if someone gets taken because
> of this law.

Funny, I thought the Constitution was supposed to assure us that no one would be held without good reason.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Jihad Gerry Connolly and HR 1540
Posted by: no ()
Date: January 08, 2012 01:46AM

Yes Wrote:

> Another argument for another day. I'll rephrase
> that to stay on subject, no reason is a good
> reason to hold people indefintely.

I would even disagree with that though. A mass murder who gets 200+ years in prison is held indefinitely as he will never outlive his sentence. If you have a known terrorist that if you release will resume those activities either trying to kill civilians or our military members that is a very good reason to hold them indefinitely.

> Except before the government did not have the
> legal authority to hold their own citizens
> indefinitely. Now they do.

Which changes nothing. If they wanted to use it for evil purposes they would just do it and make you disappear they wouldnt even bother with the law. They also arent held indefinitely. They make a decision on whether or not you are still a threat ect and either release you like some from gitmo have been or they keep you because you are still a threat which is why you are there in the first place.


> Should I have said democratic republically? What
> don't you understand, why illegitimately use power
> when you can do so legitimately?

So you want every citizen to vote for it even though thats not how we pass laws or bills? Im still not exactly sure what youre saying here. There is no illegitimate use of power here. Theres a bill it will get voted on. Its following our system exactly like everything else is. Illegitimately would be just making people disappear for no reason.


> But they can, LEGALLY, hold you forever. All they
> need is to label you a terrorist. No reprecussions
> because it's within the realm of the law.

Okay they can legally hold you forever. We legally hold criminals forever every day in the country with either true life sentences or sentences they could never outlive. If they just take whoever they want this will be short lived. The government doesnt label people a terrorist for no reason. They may make mistakes every now on then but even then the people often have close ties with known terrorists. Its not a witch hunt.


> Which they can now, again, LEGALLY, do.
> Legitimately. No need to hide it.

Yes you would still have to hide taking people for no reason. It by no means that anyone anywhere can be taken because they feel like it. Thats not what the bill is designed for, and its not how it will be used.

> So instead of drawing attention to illegal
> imprisonments, they go ahead and make it legal.
> Again within the realm of the law, so any
> imprisonment is therefore legally considered
> legitimate.

No not any imprisonment is considered legal. You have to have been put on the list and gone through the review process for it to be legal. The first case of them taking someone with no evidence and its done. Its in there best interest to keep it on the up and up.


> Funny, I thought the Constitution was supposed to
> assure us that no one would be held without good
> reason.

And it does. Being a terrorist/wanting to harm the USA is as good a reason as there is.

Options: ReplyQuote


Your Name: 
Your Email (Optional): 
Subject: 
Attach a file
  • No file can be larger than 75 MB
  • All files together cannot be larger than 300 MB
  • 30 more file(s) can be attached to this message
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **    **   ******    **     **  **         **      ** 
  **  **   **    **   **     **  **    **   **  **  ** 
   ****    **         **     **  **    **   **  **  ** 
    **     **   ****  **     **  **    **   **  **  ** 
    **     **    **   **     **  *********  **  **  ** 
    **     **    **   **     **        **   **  **  ** 
    **      ******     *******         **    ***  ***  
This forum powered by Phorum.