The Real ID Act of 2005. Have you heard of it? The likely answer is no. It rode it's way through congress on the back side of an emergency spending bill for the war on terror and tsunami relief with little debate (none in the senate). It does not even appear in the bill's title. It does not even appear in the bill's mission statement:

"An Act

Making Emergency Supplemental Appropriations for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2005, and for other purposes."

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1268
(It's way near the bottom of the Full Text. Shortcut for most browsers: hold down the Ctrl key and hit F (ctrl+f) type in: real id act)
[Link to official version at the THOMAS branch of the library of congress on the left side]

The "other purposes" are called the Real ID Act of 2005.

So what is it?

It's National ID. For the first time in the history of the United States, if Real ID succeeds, we will have it. Some argue it is not National ID, because each state issues their own thing and it is not mandatory. Even though each state has it's own thing, the data put on it, of which there is no limit, will be uploaded into an interstate database, accessible by any state and the federal government. If you decide not to take it, you will not be able to drive, open a bank account, fly, or enter any federal building.

It's, despite it's intentions, insecure. Security experts have pointed out the inherent flaws in having a single ID for an entire nation, instead of 50 different ones. No matter how hard you try to make something forgery-proof, it will be they say. The $20 bill was counterfeited before it was released. The difference is, once you get it you are good to go anywhere. Extra incentive is given to acquiring phony National ID because of this. Privacy rights will be violated by the lack of restriction on what they can put onto your National ID card. Any information you give the DMV will be accessible in any DMV across the United States. If one of these access points is compromised, by either computer hackers or corrupt workers, as often happens (ChoicePoint's database of 140,000 personal records was compromised by identity theives, for example), identity thieves will have access to millions of records. There are no provisions which consider those who need their locations kept secret, namely witnesses in protection and battered women. These people will be left high and dry.

It's expensive. The federally mandated Real ID Act requires the states to pay for it. Estimates ranging from $11-23 billion to pay for it's implementation will possibly be payed for in raised taxes. With the recession coming, the last thing we need is higher taxes.

It's illegal! The Constitution does not grant congress to compel the states to conform to a National ID.

It's coming fast. It's late in the game. In Virginia we have less than 30 days to pass anti-Real ID legislation for this year. If you don't know anything about this issue you should read about it and make up your mind fast.

17 other states have rejected Real ID, and 22 more have introduced legislation in an attempt to do the same. Virginia is right now trying to join the 22 in introducing legislation. Numerous groups from all over the political, professional, and religious spectrum oppose Real ID. The problem is that not enough people know about it, and it is sliding right in behind our backs.

Contact your Senator!
http://conview.state.va.us/whosmy.nsf/main?openform

Book prepared for the National Veterans Committee on Constitutional Affairs
http://www.lulu.com/content/824343

http://stoprealid.info/site/

http://www.restoretherepublic.com
ACLU:
http://www.realnightmare.org
Join our MeetUp and help us educate and contact our representatives!
http://peace.meetup.com/199/

FUCK THIS IM ALREASY PARANOID... ENough is enough seriously things arnt workin as it is people arnt happy .. now

Don't sweat it. Your name and plenty of personal data is already in a variety of National databases; NCIC http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/ncic.htm if you have commited crimes, credit reports, tax databases, and various other National marketing or call databases.

not to mention if you have gotten a speeding ticket in VA, you are in my copy of the online traffic ticket/crime report DB. ^_^


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

While I am not opposed to the Govt. maintaining lists and data (which they already do), I AM OPPOSED to me, carrying around a chip, or other method of storace on an ID card such as a national ID or drivers license.

As technology evolves, so will crime and the opportunities it offers.

My orginal paper drives license was simple and it worked. then came magnetic strips and barcodes. Where will it end?

Checks and balances. Calling things into question is the American way - not paranoia.

ffxn8v Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While I am not opposed to the Govt. maintaining
> lists and data (which they already do), I AM
> OPPOSED to me, carrying around a chip, or other
> method of storace on an ID card such as a
> national ID or drivers license.

why?


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

The main reason, it due to having that info out there in general, for everone who looks at your lic. to have the "chance" to scan the data.

There will be retailers who scan it as part of your check verification process (I do not write checks in retail stores, BTW), Who is to say someone doesn't "hack" the scanner to go from verification of your check, to stealing all your data? If an Iphone or Razr can be hacked for features, why not a card reader?

Also, what if you lose the card? Many years ago, I had my wallet slip out of my pocket at a gas station in rural Maine. Someone mailed it home, cash intact. Today, it is a different world. Maybe not in rural Maine, but around here, consider yourself screwed by anyone that "finds" your ID card.

Where do I sign up to opose this card??

ffxn8v,
   here's the deal, the Real ID has all the same security measures as the current VA licenses. so none of the technology protecting this card is new. the only reason this is being passed is so that all the other states with crappy technology use the same level of technology we do. there is nothing new and fancy about this card.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

ffxn8v Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There will be retailers who scan it as part of
> your check verification process (I do not write
> checks in retail stores, BTW), Who is to say
> someone doesn't "hack" the scanner to go from
> verification of your check, to stealing all your
> data? If an Iphone or Razr can be hacked for
> features, why not a card reader?
>
> Also, what if you lose the card? Many years ago, I
> had my wallet slip out of my pocket at a gas
> station in rural Maine. Someone mailed it home,
> cash intact. Today, it is a different world. Maybe
> not in rural Maine, but around here, consider
> yourself screwed by anyone that "finds" your ID
> card.
>
> Where do I sign up to opose this card??

Okay... why don't you have all of these fears over credit cards? You say you don't write checks, but are you saying you pay cash for everything? Why don't you quiver in fear over a credit card swiping machine being hacked? If you use cash, why aren't you hiding from the hackers of the ATM machine card?

It is understandable though that older people are unsure of these new things, and perhaps are a little fearful. Rather than blindly and fearfully opposing these ideas, perhaps you should ask the supporters of the technologies how the situations you cite will be handled. Perhaps then you and others will not be so afraid and we will no longer have to wait through another elderly person in the "Express" lane at Giant writing a check for ten dollars.

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> not to mention if you have gotten a speeding
> ticket in VA, you are in my copy of the online
> traffic ticket/crime report DB. ^_^


Not speeding, but I do have "failure to obey a highway sign" from 4 years ago. Gosh I am such a radical!

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay... why don't you have all of these fears over
> credit cards? You say you don't write checks, but
> are you saying you pay cash for everything? Why
> don't you quiver in fear over a credit card
> swiping machine being hacked? If you use cash,
> why aren't you hiding from the hackers of the ATM
> machine card?
>
> It is understandable though that older people are
> unsure of these new things, and perhaps are a
> little fearful. Rather than blindly and fearfully
> opposing these ideas, perhaps you should ask the
> supporters of the technologies how the situations
> you cite will be handled. Perhaps then you and
> others will not be so afraid and we will no longer
> have to wait through another elderly person in the
> "Express" lane at Giant writing a check for ten
> dollars.


____________________________________________________________________

I do use a credit card however, my credit card company provides me with a monthly statement of use and if there is something on there that was not a charge of mine, they would work to resolve the matter.

BIG difference between that, and a chip, or other storage device on my ID, or drivers license.

I am probably not as old as you may think, but I am more conservative than most. And I vote.

ffxn8v Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BIG difference between that, and a chip, or other
> storage device on my ID, or drivers license.

there is no chip in the real id cards. it's a standard 2D barcode that already exists on your driver's license.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ffxn8v Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > BIG difference between that, and a chip, or
> other
> > storage device on my ID, or drivers license.
>
> there is no chip in the real id cards. it's a
> standard 2D barcode that already exists on your
> driver's license.


__________________________________________________________

Please list all that will be stored on the new card - Stuff that has been disclosed.


Then, what else would you suppose will be on there aside from that?

ffxn8v Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please list all that will be stored on the new
> card - Stuff that has been disclosed.

the stored info is exactly what is printed on the front of the card.


> Then, what else would you suppose will be on there
> aside from that?

considering it's a public format, people have already read all the contents. no surprise, it's only what is listed on the card.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2008 03:45PM by Gravis.

From the DHS FAQ on this...

"What is the Machine Readable Technology specified in the NPRM?

The regulations propose the use of the 2-D barcode already used by 46 jurisdictions (45 States and the District of Columbia). DHS leans towards encrypting the data on the barcode as a privacy protection and requests comments on how to proceed given operational considerations. "

http://www.dhs.gov/xprevprot/laws/gc_1172767635686.shtm


It doesn't look like the VA Driver's License will change at all (at least due to RealID) from how it has looked for years.

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It doesn't look like the VA Driver's License will
> change at all (at least due to RealID) from how it
> has looked for years.

that's not going to stop idiots in VA from opposing it. there are just too many idiots out there who eat up every word that fearmongers spew.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Very true. I am as concerned about personal info privacy as anyone, but this one ranks low in the scare factor given that we aren't any more screwed than we already were.

Lurker. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't sweat it. Your name and plenty of personal
> data is already in a variety of National
> databases; NCIC
> http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/ncic.htm if you have
> commited crimes, credit reports, tax databases,
> and various other National marketing or call
> databases.

This is not all in ONE database accessible by the government, however, and Real ID sets no limits to what can be collected and stored about you. Think of some things you wouldn't want a police officer to see when they ask for your ID.

Also, the nature of the database is that it will be compromised and identity theft will occur. The minimum information stored in this database includes full legal name, date of birth, gender, driver's license or identification card number, digital photograph address of principle residence, and signature.
Identity theft is the fastest growing crime in the United States and huge databases of personal information are unlawfully accessed over and over again.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080127-uk-military-laptop-theft-exposes-thousands-to-risk-of-identity-theft.html
A laptop that was stolen from the car of a military recruitment officer contained information about approximately 600,000 people, most of whom were prospective recruits. The database stored on the laptop was not encrypted—a significant violation of MOD data handling policies. The records, the earliest of which date back to 1997, primarily consisted of names and basic contact information, but more sensitive data—such as passport information, National Health Service numbers, medical details, and drivers' license numbers—were included for 153,000 individuals. Financial and banking information of approximately 3,700 people was also stored on the laptop.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/17/technology/personaltech/choicepoint/
ID company says criminals able to obtain almost 140,000 names, addresses and other information.

The database created in Real ID will be accessible at each DMV in the United States. Millions of Americans will be put at risk of ID theft whether by human error, corruption, or an organized attack at any one location.






ffxn8v Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where do I sign up to opose this card??

http://peace.meetup.com/199/

Stop_Real_ID Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is not all in ONE database accessible by the
> government, however, and Real ID sets no limits to
> what can be collected and stored about you. Think
> of some things you wouldn't want a police officer
> to see when they ask for your ID.

It isn't all in ONE database. As they do now, authorized DMV officials in the licensing State will have access to DMV records. DMV employees in one State cannot “fish” the records in another State. The proposed rule requires States to include a comprehensive security plan for safeguarding information collected, stored, or disseminated for purposes of complying with the REAL ID Act, including procedures to prevent unauthorized access, use, or dissemination of applicant information and images of source documents retained pursuant to the Act and standards and procedures for document retention and destruction. The REAL ID Act and associated regulations do not establish a national database of driver information. States will continue to collect and store information about applicants as they do today. The NPRM does not propose to change this practice and would not give the Federal government any greater access to this information.


Things a police officer SEES when he looks at your license - NAME, ADDRESS, ID #, HEIGHT, WEIGHT, DATE OF BIRTH, ADDRESS, PHOTOGRAPH, SEX, ORGAN DONOR STATUS.


> Also, the nature of the database is that it will
> be compromised and identity theft will occur. The
> minimum information stored in this database
> includes full legal name, date of birth, gender,
> driver's license or identification card number,
> digital photograph address of principle residence,
> and signature.
> Identity theft is the fastest growing crime in the
> United States and huge databases of personal
> information are unlawfully accessed over and over
> again.
>
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080127-uk-m
> ilitary-laptop-theft-exposes-thousands-to-risk-of-
> identity-theft.html
> A laptop that was stolen from the car of a
> military recruitment officer contained information
> about approximately 600,000 people, most of whom
> were prospective recruits. The database stored on
> the laptop was not encrypted—a significant
> violation of MOD data handling policies. The
> records, the earliest of which date back to 1997,
> primarily consisted of names and basic contact
> information, but more sensitive data—such as
> passport information, National Health Service
> numbers, medical details, and drivers' license
> numbers—were included for 153,000 individuals.
> Financial and banking information of approximately
> 3,700 people was also stored on the laptop.
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/17/technology/persona
> ltech/choicepoint/
> ID company says criminals able to obtain almost
> 140,000 names, addresses and other information.
>
> The database created in Real ID will be accessible
> at each DMV in the United States. Millions of
> Americans will be put at risk of ID theft whether
> by human error, corruption, or an organized attack
> at any one location.

Again, you are wrong. Please learn about the law so that in the future, you will not sound so ignorant. DMV employees in one State cannot “fish” the records in another State.

Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Again, you are wrong. Please learn about the law
> so that in the future, you will not sound so
> ignorant. DMV employees in one State cannot
> “fish” the records in another State.


SEC. 202 of the Real ID Act of 2005 -

(d) Other Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall adopt the following practices in the issuance of drivers' licenses and identification cards:
(12) Provide electronic access to all other States to information contained in the motor vehicle database of the State.

(13) Maintain a State motor vehicle database that contains, at a minimum--

(A) all data fields printed on drivers' licenses and identification cards issued by the State; and

(B) motor vehicle drivers' histories, including motor vehicle violations, suspensions, and points on licenses.

Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, you are wrong. Please learn about the law
> so that in the future, you will not sound so
> ignorant. DMV employees in one State cannot
> “fish” the records in another State.

Don't worry... this is a fringe wacko group that cares nothing for facts. It gains about 25 members a month, hardly enough so far to fill a McDonald's restaurant.

The organizer is a Ron Paul supporter who, with a brokered Republican convention now extremely unlikely, is now forced to move on to other issues. RealID, which will end up having your VA driver's license look the same after adoption as it does now, is not worth the "grassroots" effort. Focus should be on other things, such as an environmental impact study of 4-wheel-drive vehicles soon to be required on I-66 from the Beltway to Vienna because is is Kaine's VDOT policy that it be completely impassible by smaller consumer vehicles by mid-2008.

Sorry, I missed this other quote in between my quote:

The DHS says...
As they do now, authorized DMV officials in the licensing State will have access to DMV records. DMV employees in one State cannot “fish” the records in another State. The proposed rule requires States to include a comprehensive security plan for safeguarding information collected, stored, or disseminated for purposes of complying with the REAL ID Act, including procedures to prevent unauthorized access, use, or dissemination of applicant information and images of source documents retained pursuant to the Act and standards and procedures for document retention and destruction.

This paragraph is deceptive and so is the text of the Real ID Act. First, if nothing changes with the text quoted in my last post (and again below) from the Real ID Act of 2005, why did they include it? It says "at a minimum," which means now they are not limited to recording and accessing what they could otherwise. Second, it says "DMV employees cannot "fish" records in another State." What does "fish" mean? Who said DMV officials were "fishing" for records? With Real ID, DMV officials are ALLOWED to access records of another state. Next, it says they will have a security plan for the data. This is a given. All such data has security. The point is that it gets compromised by identity thieves anyway. The UK Military had procedure to encrypt information, yet the recruiter failed to adhere to this procedure and over 600,000 records were accessible when his laptop was stolen. In these other cases the databases don't contain the records of as many people as the Real ID database will.

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't worry... this is a fringe wacko group that
> cares nothing for facts. It gains about 25
> members a month, hardly enough so far to fill a
> McDonald's restaurant.
>
> The organizer is a Ron Paul supporter who, with a
> brokered Republican convention now extremely
> unlikely, is now forced to move on to other
> issues. RealID, which will end up having your VA
> driver's license look the same after adoption as
> it does now, is not worth the "grassroots" effort.

This is not just a fringe issue, nor is it a partisan issue. Here's a few organizations which oppose Real ID:
American Library Association http://www.ala.org/Template.cfm?Section=pressreleases&template=/contentmanagement/contentdisplay.cfm&ContentID=156856:
“There are serious privacy and security issues with the REAL ID Act,” said Loriene Roy, ALA President-Elect. “ALA has expressed deep concern about standardized machine-readable driver's licenses and national identification cards because of the potential privacy implications for library users, as well as the increased potential for identity theft for all individuals.”

National Veterans' Committee on Constitutional Affairs http://nvcca.net/id21.htm:
In 2005 the Congress passed an Act that will cause incredible burdens to be borne by both the States and the public at large pertaining to methods of identification issued by the States. This is just WRONG! The Constitution contains NO grant of power whereby the Federal Government has the jurisdiction or authority to compel any particular form of identification of the citizens of the 50 states of the Union. The NVCCA is already actively working to strengthen the resolve of the states to RESIST this unconstitutional and "unfunded" federal mandate.

A Letter to Senators in 2004 signed by over thirty organizations http://www.aapsonline.org/confiden/nationalidletter.htm:
A national ID would depend on a massive bureaucracy that would limit our basic freedoms. A national ID system would depend on both the issuance of an ID card and the integration of huge amounts of personal information included in state and federal government databases. One employee mistake, an underlying database error rate, or common fraud such as identity theft, now rampant in the U.S., could take away an individual's ability to move freely from place to place or even make them unemployable until the government fixed their "file." Anyone who has attempted to fix errors in their credit report can imagine the difficulty of causing an over-extended government agency such as the department of motor vehicles to correct a mistake that precludes a person from getting a valid ID.

ACLU "Real Nightmare" http://www.realnightmare.org/opposition/9/
Opposition Voices:
"The Real ID Act is not real. It is a bizarre policy fiction with murky goals. Once billions of public treasure is expended and the government has complete control over who you say you are, and the next Mohammed Atta would still be able to obtain a state driver's license, it will be too late to reverse course..."
-Matthew Dunlap, Maine Secretary of State

On top of this, in 17 other states Real ID has already been rejected. 22 more have at least introduced legislation attempting to do the same, and in half of these the legislation has passed the first house.

Stop_Real_ID Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SEC. 202 of the Real ID Act of 2005 -
>
> (d) Other Requirements- To meet the requirements
> of this section, a State shall adopt the following
> practices in the issuance of drivers' licenses and
> identification cards:
> (12) Provide electronic access to all
> other States to information contained in the motor
> vehicle database of the State.
>
> (13) Maintain a State motor vehicle
> database that contains, at a minimum--
>
> (A) all data fields printed on
> drivers' licenses and identification cards issued
> by the State; and
>
> (B) motor vehicle drivers'
> histories, including motor vehicle violations,
> suspensions, and points on licenses.


they already have that, jackass. the information is not kept on the card, it's kept in a database that is accessed using your information.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stop_Real_ID Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SEC. 202 of the Real ID Act of 2005 -
> >
> > (d) Other Requirements- To meet the
> requirements
> > of this section, a State shall adopt the
> following
> > practices in the issuance of drivers' licenses
> and
> > identification cards:
> > (12) Provide electronic access to
> all
> > other States to information contained in the
> motor
> > vehicle database of the State.
> >
> > (13) Maintain a State motor vehicle
> > database that contains, at a minimum--
> >
> > (A) all data fields printed
> on
> > drivers' licenses and identification cards
> issued
> > by the State; and
> >
> > (B) motor vehicle drivers'
> > histories, including motor vehicle violations,
> > suspensions, and points on licenses.
>
>
> they already have that, jackass. the information
> is not kept on the card, it's kept in a database
> that is accessed using your information.
Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stop_Real_ID Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This is not all in ONE database accessible by
> the
> > government, however, and Real ID sets no limits
> to
> > what can be collected and stored about you.
> Think
> > of some things you wouldn't want a police
> officer
> > to see when they ask for your ID.
> Things a police officer SEES when he looks at your
> license - NAME, ADDRESS, ID #, HEIGHT, WEIGHT,
> DATE OF BIRTH, ADDRESS, PHOTOGRAPH, SEX, ORGAN
> DONOR STATUS.

SEC. 202(b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, AT A MINIMUM, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State:

As before with the database, the old standard requirements are now the absolute minimum and no maximum is specified.

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> they already have that, jackass. the information
> is not kept on the card, it's kept in a database
> that is accessed using your information.

What does he think DMV stores on him? When he goes to DMV and ask for a printout of his ticket history, does he think there's a magician in the back that waves a wand and a list pops out of his hat? I can't believe there are a bunch of raving loons who are protesting something that for Virginia has been in place for years (the license layout) or DECADES (the stuff DMV has on record).

Stop_Real_ID Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SEC. 202(b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet
> the requirements of this section, a State shall
> include, AT A MINIMUM, the following information
> and features on each driver's license and
> identification card issued to a person by the
> State:
>
> As before with the database, the old standard
> requirements are now the absolute minimum and no
> maximum is specified.

so you think a bureaucracy wants to put time, effort and most of all, more money into gathering and storing more information about you? wow, you are dumb.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

According to a national survey by the National Governor's Association, American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators, and the National Conference of State Legislatures, Real ID is going to require an estimated 245 million Americans who currently use driver's licenses or identification cards to reapply in person for the National ID Card, more than doubling the amount of people who will be at the DMV each year as well as the duration of each person's transaction. To be able to handle these burdens more staff will be hired and the hours of operation will be extended. This alone is going to cost the states $8.5 billion dollars. The process itself includes the verification of each document you provide with the issuing agency. The DMV's time and effort is on our bill, on top of our own time and effort of going through this process.

Currently, Homeland Security is saying the minimum standard for the National ID Card will only include a barcode. However the Real ID Act states the standard is "a common machine readable technology." A less known but still common machine readable technology is Radio Frequency Identification chips http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rfid&search_type=&search=Search. With RFID, information can be read and written from a distance. RFID is already being used in passports to store information http://www.google.com/search?q=rfid+passports. It can include GPS tracking technology as is used in embedded microchips for pets and livestock. Bars and clubs have started using embedded RFID technology in customers so they can pay their bar tabs without a credit card or wallet. Embedded microchips storing medical information have been used for a few years. Several schools across the country are considering implementing RFID technology in backpacks to track when students get on and off buses, or just ID cards with GPS technology http://www.google.com/search?q=school+rfid.

The technology to locate and automate storing infromation about you on a microchip on your ID card is there, and the Real ID Act allows its use, as well as the storage of any information which can be stored. Once this technology is implemented (we will likely pay for it's implementation), it won't cost a thing.

The change from a modest beginning to something much more invasive is called "mission creep." The income tax's original purpose was supposed to tax the rich, with a rate of 1%. Today income tax rates are nearing 40%. The Social Security number was supposed to be an insurance policy, yet we need to use it whenever we apply for a job or bank account (or National ID). The Real ID Act sets a precedent that they can store information about you and if you refuse you cannot do anything that is on the list composed by the Department of Homeland Security (which is also subject to change).

ALL of this is pinpointed on the immigration problem. Just like the USA PATRIOT Act, Military Commissions Act, and even the Iraq War was pinpointed on September 11th.

Freedoms are endowed by our creator, but they are not guaranteed. Our legislators represent us, which means we only have the freedoms we're willing to defend.



The Virginia Generaly Assembly (comparable to our state's congress) ends on March 8th, which is a little over three weeks away.

Currently the legislation is stuck in the Senate Transportation Committee. Contact your legislators:

“I Reject the Federal Real ID Act”
“I support Senate Bill 492, please vote to pass Senator Hanger’s Bill!”

All Area codes (804)
Transportation Committee members:
Miller, Yvonne B. - Chairwoman - (804)698-7505
Houck, R. Edward 698-7517
Marsh, Henry L. III 698-7516
Newman, Stephen D. 698-7523
Watkins, John 698-7510
Puckett, Phillip P. 698-7538
Wagner, Frank 698-7507
Blevins, Harry 698-7514
Deeds, R. Creigh 698-7525
McDougle, Ryan T. 698-7504
Ticer, Patricia 698-7530
Cuccinelli, Ken II 698-7537
Petersen, Chap 698-7534
Smith, Ralph K. 698-7522
Miller, John C. 698-7501
Your representatives: http://conview.state.va.us/whosmy.nsf/main?openform

Stop_Real_ID,
   yes, they are going to put in more expensive RFID tags in because it's more expensive! oh yeah, btw, the people you think are following you, are following you. run!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't worry... this is a fringe wacko group that
> cares nothing for facts. It gains about 25
> members a month, hardly enough so far to fill a
> McDonald's restaurant.
>
> The organizer is a Ron Paul supporter who, with a
> brokered Republican convention now extremely
> unlikely, is now forced to move on to other
> issues. RealID, which will end up having your VA
> driver's license look the same after adoption as
> it does now, is not worth the "grassroots" effort.


Here's what the other Presidential candidates say about it. All of them except McCain oppose it (and McCain acknowledges the funding problem)http://www.realnightmare.org/about/112/:


Rep. Ron Paul (Republican)
"I do not support any Real ID program, and I would seek the repeal of all federal laws mandating a Real ID program. The Real ID Act imposes tremendous costs on state governments, yet any state that opts out will automatically make nonpersons out of its citizens.

"The citizens of that state will be unable to have any dealings with the federal government because their ID will not be accepted. They will not be able to fly or to take a train. In essence, in the eyes of the federal government, they will cease to exist.

"However, the most objectionable feature of the Real ID Act is that it turns state driver's licenses into de facto national ID cards, thus facilitating the massive invasion of an American's privacy, facilitating the growth of the surveillance state, and turning America into the type of country where citizens must always have their 'papers in order.'"



Mike Huckabee (Republican)
"...Real ID, that's a huge mistake. It's putting a burden on a state that should not be the state's function, which is to provide the frontline of national security defense at the hands of a DMV worker at a state office. That's absurd. And then not funding it. That's a real problem. If you're going to have federal program then the feds ought to pay for it."



Sen. Barak Obama (Democrat)
"I do not support the Real ID program because it is an unfunded mandate, and not enough work has been done with the states to help them implement the program."



Sen. Hillary Clinton (Democrat)
"I believe we need to seriously re-examine Real ID and make changes that take into account legitimate concerns raised by states. I have long expressed concern with the Real ID Act, dating back to its initial consideration in the Senate in the spring of 2005.

"Had there been an opportunity to properly consider this legislation, it would have been revealed that the Real ID Act imposes dramatic new burdens on our states and substantially changes our immigration and asylum laws in ways that deserve critical examination.

"Among other things, Real ID's driver's license provisions impose a massive unfunded mandate on states, while ignoring our broken immigration system.

"But there never was an opportunity to consider it properly. Senate Republicans brought this legislation up for a vote without holding hearings or engaging in serious debate, and by tacking it on to an emergency spending bill for our troops. By employing these tactics, Republicans revealed that they were determined to bulldoze this law through without serious discussion.

"I support a comprehensive review of Real ID to determine whether its various ID provisions make sense in light of our very real security needs and the challenges facing our states."



John Edwards (Democrat)
"Real ID is a big step toward a national ID card, and it will open the door to government invasions of privacy and to identity theft. I support setting rigorous state standards for ID cards to keep terrorists and criminals from getting false identification. However, we need a system that protects the privacy of regular Americans and doesn't cost states $11 billion."



Sen. John McCain (Republican)
"The 9/11 Commission recommended that the federal government set standards for the issuance of birth certificates and sources of identification, such as driver's licenses. Consistent with these recommendations, the Real ID act established federal guidelines to prevent fraud in the issuance and acquisition of identity documents. I support full implementation of Real ID but understand that states need to be given enough time and funding to implement the requirements."

Thank you for imforming us Stop_Real_ID. I have written my legislatures and will call these committee members.This is a chance for us to do something that will help Virginia and America! -Rod

so now this has turned into a funding debate? if you read the bill, you will see it says they can use 20% of their funds that are allocated for Homeland Security, which is what this whole thing is about.

ugh... forget it, you are all a bunch of drones that follow any protest. idiots.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Once upon a time in the long long ago one's SSN# was only supposed to be used for Social Security oh best beloved, but today, oh today every doctor's office receptionist and insurance agent has access to it. Privacy is a thing of the past already Mr. Gravis sir. Why on Earth would anyone be in favor of yeilding another inch on this subject? It's already gone too far.

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so you think a bureaucracy wants to put time,
> effort and MOST OF ALL, MORE MONEY into gathering
> and storing more information about you? wow, you
> are dumb.
(emphasis mine)

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so now this has turned into a funding debate? if
> you read the bill, you will see it says they can
> use 20% of their funds that are allocated for
> Homeland Security, which is what this whole thing
> is about.
>
> ugh... forget it, you are all a bunch of drones
> that follow any protest. idiots.


The DHS can use 20%, but they don't have to, and they certainly don't want to. Even if they use the whole 20% it will not cover all the costs, which is what should be covered considering the Federal government is illegally compelling State governments. Also, the money is just a small piece of the mud-pie that is Real ID.

Libertarian1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once upon a time in the long long ago one's SSN#
> was only supposed to be used for Social Security
> oh best beloved, but today, oh today every
> doctor's office receptionist and insurance agent
> has access to it. Privacy is a thing of the past
> already Mr. Gravis sir. Why on Earth would anyone
> be in favor of yeilding another inch on this
> subject? It's already gone too far.

because nothing is changing for VA, you jackass.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

You should be aware of all th problems this is causing in Alabama. They are being deluged by retirees whose names have been changed at one time or another so they do not have an ID that matched the name on their birth certificate. They are all terrified that they will not longer be able to drive as their documents are not in order.

Homeland security tells people that they must go to court and get a legal name change before the DMV s can process their Real ID driver license, or get a nonusable for ID type license that is given to the illegal aliens.

Surprisingly, the illegal alien type licenses allow the holders to VOTE!!!

Too much crack being smoked by the perpetrators of this law. It does nt make any sense at all.

we already have 3 ID

# drivers license & plates, bank account numbers

# social security number (which is supposed to be secret and private savings, but Clinton made laws that they must be shared with local governments, who would then proceed to steal welfare money using them - democrats of course)

# the Serial Number on the dollar i'm spending

your idea another id would change anything is rediculous

OP is spot on...i am going to set some people apeshit when i tell you REALID is linked to the Biblical 666 “ mark of the beast.”

The sweetest sound I know is the sound of liberals crying.