SLEEP needs your help. We want to make sure Dr. Dale knows that later start times for high school is the #1 issue facing Fairfax County schools.

Vote here:

http://fcps.uservoice.com/forums/126831-preparing-our-children-for-the-future-

edit by Cary: Merged the similar thread "Fairfax County Student Sleep Issues" into this one and updated the subject to reflect the change. May the subject lines and timestamps be your guides as to which post came from which thread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2011 06:03PM by Cary.

Sorry, SLEEP, I voted for Restoring Dodgeball and "Don't allow single-agenda groups to drive the school system."

Now excuse me while I get a life, and I suggest you do the same.

Most FFU readers are still in primary, middle, or high school, therefore this is VERY relevant to our interests.

This is not an issue. Get over it. By making this change, you will be putting young ES kids out to bus stops at 6:30, not safe.

Later start time, later practice times, HS kids getting home later, staying up later, still being tired for the next day.

This would solve nothing. How about parents enforce a bed time, now there is a crazy idea.

A more pressing issue is FCPS administrators interrogating students without parental knowledge/consent.

I agree with hs coach. Past SLEEP proposals had the elementary start times at 7:30 am and the middle schools at 9:45-10 am--really problematic for both groups, and for the parents. How about teaching high school students how to prioritize their time better--less late night texting? Early to bed/early to rise actually works, you know.

What you posted is irresponsible at BEST! If for one second you think parents like having to "fight" their kids nightly to get to bed at an earlier time than you have another thing coming!

You didn't take me seriously did you? MANY parents have got to stop this crap.

Starting the school later in the morning is NOT an idea at all. None. It is a tool parents want to use, IMO. Kids will still text in their bed, go to bed later, and continue to procrastinate.

Others on this topic are correct: work on the parenting skills. Period.

Not a single thing will change except for when the ES students begin the day.

Let’s just do a better job as parents.

Dodgeball has 30 votes!

Vote now. Vote often.


http://fcps.uservoice.com/forums/126831-preparing-our-children-for-the-future-/suggestions/2151519-restore-dodgeball-to-elementary-school-playgrounds

Lazy ass parents instead of taking charge of their kids and putting them to bed at night would rather make start time later.

Stop trying to be cool and your kids best friend and act like a parent. I hate it when I see parents in stores bargaining with their kids over buying something. And these are young kids I am talking about. I have seen some brats actually slap the parents and the parents just beg them to stop, which they dont.

and my kids text all night

The fact that the SLEEP issue has received more votes than the importance of critical learning speaks volumes. I have canvassed my seniors for three years and a vast majority of them said they would prefer to have the time after school for practice, work,tutoring, volunteering. Our school has a one hour delay opening every week which constitutes no more than 20 more minutes for the students due to the heavier traffic. Teachers who travel from PW and Loudoun will have a much harder commute should we open late. The little ones will be forced to be at bus stops in dawn hours. This is a single issue and it is embarrassing!

Do your kids run the house or do you? Aren't you big enough to set the rules and take away the phones if necessary? And if that doesn't work, take the door off of their room to remove any sense of privacy? Yeah, you're "cool". Try being a parent instead...


I am cool Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and my kids text all night

Keep things the way they are. I work with enough people that think it's cool to roll in at 9:30... 10:00am. What happened to the 8-5 thing? Need to teach kids at some point (i.e. high school) that, in the real world, the day starts at a certain time. I will say, however, that I'm glad to see a site that allows for voting on key issues.

I personally voted for the following:

"Stop teaching to a test" - Enough said. Teaching to the Virginia SOLs gets us as a community nowhere.

"Give students problem solving and critical thinking skills" - Some classes are a complete waste of time. Certain forced sciences such as chemistry, come to mind.

"Update physical fitness activities to what works today" - Fantastic idea, honestly. Football? Archery? This may be okay for an all guy class (and this is coming from a guy), but others have zero interest in this stuff.

"Restore dodgeball to elementary school playgrounds" - This needs to be restored at ALL levels. Your kid needs to man up.

"Allow students to demonstrate mastery of curriculum and move to the next level when ready" - Very interesting idea. You need to be careful how to set this up, though.


Confirmed stupid ideas on that website:

Any idea related to later start times.

"Provide foreign language instruction to elementary schoolers" - This was written by a parent that must have read that recent WSJ article about a rich mom overseas that was spending a ton of money having their little kid involved in "hoity-toity" type activities. They too think that by doing this, something will click and their kid will make millions. Save foreign language for middle and high school.

"Provide more online credit courses for high school credit" - This was most likely written by a student. Everyone knows online courses are easier.

"Go back to smaller neighborhood high schools" - This was probably written by a Clifton ES supporter. OK.. let's just throw up some more buildings.. should be done in a couple of weeks.

"Let parents remotely observe classes by video/audio" - I'm not going to touch this one.




I've listen enough for now. Some great ideas on that site.

"You have 10 votes left"

No ballet box stuffing going on here. You should have to pick ten separate ideas and not vote for the same idea ten times (I.E. SLEEP).

ainthappening Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Provide foreign language instruction to
> elementary schoolers" - This was written by a
> parent that must have read that recent WSJ article
> about a rich mom overseas that was spending a ton
> of money having their little kid involved in
> "hoity-toity" type activities. They too think that
> by doing this, something will click and their kid
> will make millions. Save foreign language for
> middle and high school.
>

You're wrong on this one. It's proven that children can much more
easily learn a foreign language, to the point of becoming fluent,
the earlier they start. My 5 y.o. can speak English better than
most 4th graders, is conversational in Russian (thanks to Mom),
and does pretty well in French which was taught the last two years
in her preschool. She's continuing in French at her new kindergarten
and will add Latin beginning in 4th grade. (I know, I know... a
"dead" language but it teaches the roots of all romance languages
and is valuable when working in the hard sciences.)


> "Provide more online credit courses for high
> school credit" - This was most likely written by a
> student. Everyone knows online courses are
> easier.
>

Plus online courses are soooo easy to cheat your way through as
no one can prove who was or wasn't at the keyboard. That's why
I only hire people who went to a brick-and-mortar school. Applicants
from online schools such as Phoenix lose 20 points before they even
say Hello.


> "Let parents remotely observe classes by
> video/audio" - I'm not going to touch this one.
>

Not a bad idea if done right. Unfortunately, no one's done it
right yet.


SLEEP still sucks though!

These special interest groups in the county are out of hand...

SLEEP, FAIRGRADE, ZEROTOLERANCE UNDO, ONLINE TEXTBOOK.COM, and so on.

People might hate on a lot of the current school board members but look at the facts; they have their own agendas but they are able to put certain things aside for the good of the system as a whole.

You can support SLEEP all you want but once school starts at 10AM and ends at 5PM; they'll be a new group called GET-UP!...started by logical parents who see that all the buses in the midst of rush hour traffic is not a good idea. How about sports they argue it's good for sports...but really kids start at 9AM end at 4PM; work at 6PM until 10 or 11...practice until 10 or 11PM. That's worse than the current scenario.

These special interest candidates are not the people the school board needs...they are going to focus on their interest and their interest alone and they will fight until they get what they want. And like it any government if that happens....nothing else will occur. The school system is not something we can leave to self-righteous parental interest groups.

Post has an article about how the school board elections will overshadow the local elections...

Nick Stubans dad running because he didn't like what happened to his son...there's a loaded gun if I ever heard one.

The founder of FAIRGRADE...the grading policy hasn't made kids better off it's made them worse off.

The founder of SLEEP...again a one button agenda.

A 25 year old kid...described by the VA Democratic party as a rising star...really rising star...maybe he should you know experience life, get married, have some kids, buy a home, actually know what it means to be an adult. His platform..its unfair in our obese society that high school students have to pay $100 to play. Really!?! So when he gets that overturned then we'll assume he'll leave the school board.

I keep saying it in this post...but we have got to recognize that special interest while important as a part of the system can't be the system. I know the men and women in Richmond and DC have their own agendas...but at the end of the day the one's that get called back a. have a war chest and b. consider what's in the best interest of everyone and not just themselves.

End rant....and screw SLEEP...tell the kids to go to bed at a reasonable hour and don't give me the too much homework garbage. Plenty of students have gone to UVA with strong SATs and good GPAs who were 2-3 sport athletes who held after school or weekend jobs.

As an example, kids in school hate rules and boundaries...and most of them love having subs but a lot of them while not facing peers and not being anonymous will admit it's better when the teacher is there because there is structure (i.e. rules and boundaries). Shocking I know.

Pepsi_Addict Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ainthappening Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> You're wrong on this one. It's proven that
> children can much more
> easily learn a foreign language, to the point of
> becoming fluent,
> the earlier they start.


So everyone should take a language first period. Then you and sleep will both be happy.

So this online petition gets a million votes... yeah, they'll ignore that too.

SLEEP is a bunch of stay-at-home moms that want their lunchtime cocktail hours to extend until 4 and still have time to sober up before their kids get home.

A vote for SLEEP's ideas is a vote for kids not getting home until six, after-school sports practices lasting until 7:30, and swim/dive teams getting the shaft.

No, twit. Don't wait until middle or high school to begin
teaching a second language. Go back to cleaning the
Slurpee machine and try to think before posting here. Geeeze!


Win Win Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pepsi_Addict Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ainthappening Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > You're wrong on this one. It's proven that
> > children can much more
> > easily learn a foreign language, to the point
> of
> > becoming fluent,
> > the earlier they start.
>
>
> So everyone should take a language first period.
> Then you and sleep will both be happy.

Pepsi_Addict Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, twit. Don't wait until middle or high school
> to begin
> teaching a second language. Go back to cleaning
> the
> Slurpee machine and try to think before posting
> here. Geeeze!
>
>
> Win Win Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Pepsi_Addict Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > ainthappening Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > You're wrong on this one. It's proven that
> > > children can much more
> > > easily learn a foreign language, to the point
> > of
> > > becoming fluent,
> > > the earlier they start.
> >
> >
> > So everyone should take a language first period.
>
> > Then you and sleep will both be happy.


Pepsi_Addict has no sense of humor.

Just for that I'm adding 12 more votes to the dodgeball idea.

F SLEEP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLEEP is a bunch of stay-at-home moms that want
> their lunchtime cocktail hours to extend until 4
> and still have time to sober up before their kids
> get home.

+1

Those who don't remember history....

Even if starting high schools was the greatest idea ever, the one thing we should have learned from the last time is that there is no idea so good that it can't be made worse than the status quo by the school system. If you want your high schooler going into school late, the likely cost will be your middle schooler or your elementary schooler going in earlier or later. Seriously what genius thought it would be ok for middle school kids to be comining home in the dark during winter?

What's the dodgeball question? Bring it back and make it mandatory?
I'll vote for that. It'll toughen the kids up and get them ready for
life.

I'd even vote for playing dodgeball using golf balls!

And make PE first class of the day. Dodgeball begins at 7:00am!



Win Win Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Pepsi_Addict has no sense of humor.
>
> Just for that I'm adding 12 more votes to the
> dodgeball idea.

Pepsi_Addict Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's the dodgeball question? Bring it back and
> make it mandatory?
> I'll vote for that. It'll toughen the kids up and
> get them ready for
> life.
>
> I'd even vote for playing dodgeball using golf
> balls!
>
> And make PE first class of the day. Dodgeball
> begins at 7:00am!
>
>
>
> Win Win Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Pepsi_Addict has no sense of humor.
> >
> > Just for that I'm adding 12 more votes to the
> > dodgeball idea.


Returning dodgeball to elementary school playgrounds was added to the survey to show how one person can vote over and over again to ratchet up the votes for their cause like SLEEP has been doing. But then it took on a life of its own and now has over 200 votes.

You can vote for legalizing dodgeball here:

http://fcps.uservoice.com/forums/126831-preparing-our-children-for-the-future-/suggestions/2151519-restore-dodgeball-to-elementary-school-playgrounds

It now has 203 votes!


Dodgeball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Returning dodgeball to elementary school
> playgrounds was added to the survey to show how
> one person can vote over and over again to ratchet
> up the votes for their cause like SLEEP has been
> doing. But then it took on a life of its own and
> now has over 200 votes.
>
> You can vote for legalizing dodgeball here:
>
> http://fcps.uservoice.com/forums/126831-preparing-
> our-children-for-the-future-/suggestions/2151519-r
> estore-dodgeball-to-elementary-school-playgrounds

Student Sleep Issue Keeps Resurfacing, Survey Shows
While the idea stalled in a school board session two years ago, a new survey shows that many people still want later start times.
By Frank Klimko
August 13, 2011
http://fairfaxcity.patch.com/articles/student-sleep-issue-keeps-resurfacing-survey-shows-6


Education reform advocates applauded the early results of a Fairfax County Public Schools online survey in which respondents overwhelmingly supported a later starting time for the county’s 25 high schools.

The online discussion, launched by school district Superintendent Jack Dale last week, invited residents to take part in an online discussion of the school system's priorities. As of Friday, the most popular topic by far was the issue of school bell schedules, with over 2,000 votes (in at least three separate threads) in favor of starting school later in the day. The next most popular thread, with over 500 votes, proposed restoring and adding honors classes to the curriculum. It is the first time that the county has conducted such a survey.

Phyllis Payne, co-founder of the Start Later for Excellence in Education Proposal (SLEEP) organization, said she wasn’t surprised by the survey results. She pointed to a county health youth survey from last year that showed 90 percent of county high school students weren’t getting enough sleep.

“I have always believed that there is huge support for this in the community,” Payne said. “The later start times are appropriate for students and they need it. Right now, we have a system in place that runs counter to the best interest of the kids.”

District high schools start at 7:20 a.m., which means than many students leave their front doors before 5:45 a.m. Schools around the country, including those in Loudoun County, have adopted the later times, which is what SLEEP has endorsed since 2004. Over the past year, the issue hasresurfaced as a popular topic of discussion at showings of "Race to Nowhere" around the county.

In 2009, the board rejected the issue, citing costs and logistical complications in making all 5,000 bus routes work. There were also questions about whether pushing the times back would hurt after-school activities like high school sports.

However, Payne noted that the board rejected a SLEEP plan which showed shifting to a later starting time for the high schools was both viable and budget-neutral.

“If this was done properly, this change should save money,” Payne said. “What we have now actually costs money. In reality, we are paying for student remediation that would not be necessary if we didn’t have all those sleepy students.”

Paul Regnier, schools spokesman, said there was no timeline for implementing the suggestions the district has received. The online discussion is meant to be an open and ongoing dialogue with the community, he said.

“If we come up with good ideas, the superintendent will be taking them to school board,” Regnier said. “We are looking way ahead and for outside-the-box thinking of how to best prepare our kids for the future.”

Kathy Smith, the Sully District’s representative to the school board, said she viewed the online discussion as a good starting point in an evolving dialogue to find ways to improve the district’s schools.

“It’s always useful to get the input of the public,” Smith said. “What we what to do is have a richer dialogue with the community and business leaders on how to do a better job educating our children in the future."

As for the starting time issue, she said she doesn’t expect the board to take it up immediately.

“Nothing is going to happen right now,” Smith said. “But, it’s not an issue that’s going to go away.”
Attachments:

"Education reform advocates applauded the early results of a Fairfax County Public Schools online survey in which respondents overwhelmingly supported a later starting time for the county’s 25 high schools."

Could this be because SLEEP sent out an email to its mailing list about the survey before anyone else did?

I do think it should be discussed--but it really is not the most important issue facing FCPS schools. I thought we went through this two years ago.

By the way--is anyone addressing Monday early release in elementary schools? That affects the bus schedules, too. Change that and then see if you can change bus schedules. But the same issues are still there:
1. You cannot have elementary school students out in the dark a.m. It's bad enough with high school students.
2. You can't expect middle school students to get themselves off to school after mom and dad have gone to work. ( I think this was the last "solution"). Middle school kids would not start until 8:30 or 9:00, I think they suggested.

Don't be ridiculous, the parents of children going to school in Fairfax County will just have to make adjustments to their schedules.

The SLEEP people are a joke. You can sit on the beach and vote in that survey over and over again. Someone created a dodgeball issue by copying words from Wikipedia and added 30 votes to it to prove the point.

Patch was scammed.

What good does this do with the heavier traffic at the later starting hour?

Hey, if the kids can stay up late for the midnight basketball league or late to find out who won on American Idol, they can get their ass out of bed early enough to be in a classroom. The real world doesn't adjust to someone's social schedule. I'm at my desk at 6:00am each day to accomodate what I need to do later in the day, and I've learned to give up certain evening activities so that I'm in bed early enough to be rested when the alarm goes off at 4:30 the next morning.

It sounds like the 90 percent of students who are sleep-deprived need to grow up a bit and take some responsibility for their lives. But then where would future WalMart workers come from?

The SLEEP people need to......
Attachments:

The science on this issue is overwhelming and it goes only one way -- http://schoolstarttime.org/

“All of the research that has been done shows that older adolescents need more sleep than younger ones. They fall asleep later and wake up later to get the sleep they need. Despite these two facts, almost all districts start the senior high schools first. We’re sending them to school during the last one-third of their sleep cycles. It’s comparable to adults getting up at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. You wouldn’t want to be making important decisions at that hour. I think it’s nuts. The sleep deficit builds up until they fall asleep at school or driving.” -- Mark Mahowald, M.D., University of Minnesota, Neurology Department; Professor and Chair, Hennepin County Medical Center; Director, Minnesota Regional Sleep Disorders Center, quoted here, Delisio, It’s About Time (and Sleep): Making the Case for Starting School Later (Jun. 3, 2003) Ed. World, http://www.educationworld.com/a_admin/admin/admin314.shtml

“The timing of education is also important. There is clear evidence for a phase shift during adolescence, with adolescents going to bed later and rising later than children. This phase shift is largely biological, with adolescents typically unable to fall asleep at earlier times. For the most part, school systems have not considered this adolescent phase shift, with many systems traditionally having earlier (rather than later) start dates for high school than for grade school students. By recognizing the shift in biological rhythms during adolescence and delaying school start times accordingly, classroom experience can be matched to the times when adolescents are most alert and attentive.” (Coch, Fischer, & Dawson, Human Behavior, Learning, and the Developing Brain: Typical Development (Informa Healthcare 2010) pp. 382-383.)

“[E]arly school start times clearly contribute to sleep-deprivation in growing teens, making them even more vulnerable to all the challenges of adolescence, and increases the likelihood of accidents, psychological problems, and impaired learning in school. [¶] There are so many negative consequences associated with sleep deprivation in adolescents that school leaders in many areas are beginning to consider the practical measures that would improve total sleep time for their students to promote their health and learning. Though research has not yet identified an ideal school schedule, the wealth of evidence … strongly suggests that students have a better opportunity to be rested and ready to learn by delaying school start time to 8:30 a.m. or later.” (O’Malley & O’Malley, School Start Time and Its Impact on Learning and Behavior, publish. in, Sleep and Psychiatric Disorders in Children and Adolescents (Ivanenko, edit., Informa Healthcare 2008) pp. 79-94, http://www.neurofeedback.ch/downloads/Schlaf_und_Schule.pdf)

Shut up and pet me.

...comprehending what is being said on these message boards.

I do not need some research to tell me that start times should be later. IF that happens, the kids will ONLY GO TO BED LATER. Plain and simple. It would be a great study if it had answers as to WHY kids don't want to, or better yet are not FORCED to, go to bed earlier NOW!

There were no cell phones, AIM (much less PC's), 500+ channels, etc, back even in the early 80’s. Why are we not taking the reigns from our kids? Why are we making excuses for NOT taking back our kids?

Someone said it best:

You cannot be a good parent and friends at the same time to your children. God forbid if my kids ever hated me for making them do something they didn't want to do. They are in their early 20's and they both live with us while they attend school; one who's home for the summer from Radford, and the other attending Marymount in Arlington. When they live here they still have rules. If they cannot follow our rules, then they are free to go out and "do their thing" on their own.

C'mon guys. This is NOT that hard to see. You don't need a study to understand that. Do YOUR job as parents.

Why are we making this so difficult

SLEEP parents need to stop enabling their kids an teaching them expect accomodations everytime something is inconvenient. Thanksfully these complainers are bringing it up during election time so we can know where the candidates stand before we're stuck with another board like the current one.

Knew it was only a matter of time before the SLEEP people would start squawking again. How will changing high school times actually make the kids manage their time better? It won't. Helping students get more sleep is up the their parents and the students themselves. The school board/FCPS needs to focus less on their special pet projects and more on the business of managing the schools. Maintenance may not be glamorous, but it is important.

SLEEP's "science" is as flawed as it has ever been. For those who don't remember the initial discussion/debate, the scientific research used to support later school times was inaccurate. Improper sample sizes, quoting non-academic sites as legitimate research, quoting research strategies that were funded by later start time advocacy groups, etc.

The link mentioned in this post is a good example. I went to http://schoolstarttime.org/ to see what it was about. I clicked on the summary of their position and the very first citation used to support a "fact" was in fact a broken link to a later start time advocacy group.

Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon occurance. Newsweek had a great article last year, reporting on an independent study that found flaws in nearly half of all educational research.

Here's is some completely unresearched advice for SLEEP - instead of changing the schedules of 125,000+ students, how about you take little bobby or susie up to their room at 9, turn off all their electronics, and teach them to set an alarm clock.

sciencebased Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The science on this issue is overwhelming and it
> goes only one way -- http://schoolstarttime.org/
>
> “All of the research that has been done shows
> that older adolescents need more sleep than
> younger ones. They fall asleep later and wake up
> later to get the sleep they need. Despite these
> two facts, almost all districts start the senior
> high schools first. We’re sending them to school
> during the last one-third of their sleep cycles.
> It’s comparable to adults getting up at 3 a.m.
> or 4 a.m. You wouldn’t want to be making
> important decisions at that hour. I think it’s
> nuts. The sleep deficit builds up until they fall
> asleep at school or driving.” -- Mark Mahowald,
> M.D., University of Minnesota, Neurology
> Department; Professor and Chair, Hennepin County
> Medical Center; Director, Minnesota Regional Sleep
> Disorders Center, quoted here, Delisio, It’s
> About Time (and Sleep): Making the Case for
> Starting School Later (Jun. 3, 2003) Ed. World,
> http://www.educationworld.com/a_admin/admin/admin3
> 14.shtml
>
> “The timing of education is also important.
> There is clear evidence for a phase shift during
> adolescence, with adolescents going to bed later
> and rising later than children. This phase shift
> is largely biological, with adolescents typically
> unable to fall asleep at earlier times. For the
> most part, school systems have not considered this
> adolescent phase shift, with many systems
> traditionally having earlier (rather than later)
> start dates for high school than for grade school
> students. By recognizing the shift in biological
> rhythms during adolescence and delaying school
> start times accordingly, classroom experience can
> be matched to the times when adolescents are most
> alert and attentive.” (Coch, Fischer, & Dawson,
> Human Behavior, Learning, and the Developing
> Brain: Typical Development (Informa Healthcare
> 2010) pp. 382-383.)
>
> “arly school start times clearly contribute to
> sleep-deprivation in growing teens, making them
> even more vulnerable to all the challenges of
> adolescence, and increases the likelihood of
> accidents, psychological problems, and impaired
> learning in school. [¶] There are so many
> negative consequences associated with sleep
> deprivation in adolescents that school leaders in
> many areas are beginning to consider the practical
> measures that would improve total sleep time for
> their students to promote their health and
> learning. Though research has not yet identified
> an ideal school schedule, the wealth of evidence
> … strongly suggests that students have a better
> opportunity to be rested and ready to learn by
> delaying school start time to 8:30 a.m. or
> later.” (O’Malley & O’Malley, School Start
> Time and Its Impact on Learning and Behavior,
> publish. in, Sleep and Psychiatric Disorders in
> Children and Adolescents (Ivanenko, edit., Informa
> Healthcare 2008) pp. 79-94,
> http://www.neurofeedback.ch/downloads/Schlaf_und_S
> chule.pdf)

So let me get this straight ... 2,100 hundred votes encourages change? I like how the original article the OP posted makes no mention of the fact that you can vote up to 3 times on an issue.

Let's pretend for a second that these fantaical SLEEP zealots actually behaved themselves and only voted once each. Those 2,100 votes constitutes a grand total of less than two-tenths of one percent of our county's population.

Please tell me that FCPS isn't going to cave to this tiny group of fanatics and restart this later start time debate all over again.

Concerned Parents Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Education reform advocates applauded the early
> results of a Fairfax County Public Schools online
> survey in which respondents overwhelmingly
> supported a later starting time for the county’s
> 25 high schools.
>
> The online discussion, launched by school district
> Superintendent Jack Dale last week, invited
> residents to take part in an online discussion of
> the school system's priorities. As of Friday, the
> most popular topic by far was the issue of school
> bell schedules, with over 2,000 votes (in at least
> three separate threads) in favor of starting
> school later in the day.

I need to be at my bus stop at 5:55 My first class is a sleepy blur.

Anyone who thinks that the schools should not start later are simply put, Spitting in the face of proven science.

This thread is making me tired. Yawn. Nap time for me.

sciencebased Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The science on this issue is overwhelming and it
> goes only one way --


Similar to the overwhelming science that justified the holocaust.


> Education reform advocates applauded the early
> results of a Fairfax County Public Schools online
> survey in which respondents overwhelmingly
> supported a later starting time for the county’s
> 25 high schools.

Which two SLEEP Inc. advocates are you referring to?

The problem is with the parents. The teens do not go to sleep early enough to get enough sleep. The parents let them stay up all night with their wireless electronic gadgets, and no surprise they are dead tired the next morning. Take those devices away each evening and make them go to sleep.

If start times are pushed back for teens, they will just stay up even later -- no improvement in the situation.

Also, SLEEP's proposals had major flaws. One of the biggest was that the push back in high school start times meant that elementary and middle school start times had to be moved up even earlier. Hello -- anyone with any knowledge about children and sleep knows that K-6 elementary kids need 1-2 hours more sleep EACH night than high school teens do. The School Board correctly turned down SLEEP's proposal that would have had a huge adverse impact on the sleep requirements of K-6 children.

SLEEP Needs to Wake Up Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem is with the parents. The teens do not
> go to sleep early enough to get enough sleep. The
> parents let them stay up all night with their
> wireless electronic gadgets, and no surprise they
> are dead tired the next morning. Take those
> devices away each evening and make them go to
> sleep.
>
> If start times are pushed back for teens, they
> will just stay up even later -- no improvement in
> the situation.
>
> Also, SLEEP's proposals had major flaws. One of
> the biggest was that the push back in high school
> start times meant that elementary and middle
> school start times had to be moved up even
> earlier. Hello -- anyone with any knowledge about
> children and sleep knows that K-6 elementary kids
> need 1-2 hours more sleep EACH night than high
> school teens do. The School Board correctly
> turned down SLEEP's proposal that would have had a
> huge adverse impact on the sleep requirements of
> K-6 children.


^^This is correct.

Dodgeball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dodgeball has 30 votes!
>
> Vote now. Vote often.
>
>
> http://fcps.uservoice.com/forums/126831-preparing-
> our-children-for-the-future-/suggestions/2151519-r
> estore-dodgeball-to-elementary-school-playgrounds


YEAH YEAH DODGEBALL

Dodgeball broke 300!!!

This online forum is a joke. Some guy flat out said in the comment section that he had a slow day at work so he added 30 votes to the most popular pro-SLEEP thread

High schoolers go to bed late. We just do. There are things going on at might that keep us up. Practically everyone goes to bed after eleven or twelve. With school starting at 7:20, buses coming at 6:40, and the average student waking up an hour before the bus comes, that's only 6 hours of sleep 5 days a week. The deprivation adds up and is detrimental to a teen's growth. Pushing the start time to 8:30, giving the extra one hour of sleep, would help. A couple years ago, I went to a school that started at 9. I went to bed between 11 and 12 every night, woke up at 7:30. Now I still go to bed at the same time but wake up at 5:30.

Can't push back high school start times without making the elementary school kids get up even earlier. But the small kids need even more sleep each night than the high schoolers do.

High schoolers just need to go to bed earlier. Case closed.

My 7 and 5 year old brothers go to bed at 8-8:30 every night. They wake up hours before their school even starts. They would be absolutely fine if their school started at 7;30. Oh and "the small kids need even more sleep than the high schoolers" is actually exactly the opposite. :P Silly person.

My two boys are ages 8 and 10. They go to bed at 9:00PM. I still wake them up to go to school. 8:30 PM is pushing it with sports and homework.

I think HS should be 8:45 AM to 3:45 PM. This still gives time for HW and sports.

We need to all agree. If Arlington schools can do it so can we.

Sleepytime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> High schoolers go to bed late. We just do. There
> are things going on at might that keep us up.
> Practically everyone goes to bed after eleven or
> twelve. With school starting at 7:20, buses coming
> at 6:40, and the average student waking up an hour
> before the bus comes, that's only 6 hours of sleep
> 5 days a week. The deprivation adds up and is
> detrimental to a teen's growth. Pushing the start
> time to 8:30, giving the extra one hour of sleep,
> would help. A couple years ago, I went to a school
> that started at 9. I went to bed between 11 and 12
> every night, woke up at 7:30. Now I still go to
> bed at the same time but wake up at 5:30.

Why do teenagers want to be treated like adults but then when they are they cry foul. Many adults get up at5am to get to work by 730 or 8 to leave at 5 530pm and then are up until 10 or 11 maybe even 12. If you want to stay up late then accept consequences when your performance declines no more but we need but we do just accept consequences of your decisions. If you can't do that then stop acting like your an adult and act like a kid and do what your told.

As the saying goes if you think your teacher is tough wait until you have a boss

This is truly a bogus issue. Get up and go to school.

It's like the people who want to get rid of Daylight Savings Time. They use every made up reason in the world, and the best is that it would be better for the cows. The cows don't know what time it is! It's the farmers who have to adjust their schedules and who cares about that.

All these whining kids have to do is go to bed earlier. If they won't, then let the righteous wrath of their parents descend upon them.

I got the picture when I was young.

Students at later starting schools have significantly fewer car accidents, the leading cause of death among teens, accounting for approximately 40% of all teen fatalities.

Earlier this year, Harvard Professor of Medicine and sleep expert Stuart Quan commented on the Vorona study, infra, the second study to associate early high school start times with significantly increased frequencies of automobile accidents, and later start times with significantly decreased frequencies:

“They are additional data suggesting that high school start times should be delayed to increase the amount of sleep that teenagers get during the school week and, hence, reduce the amount of sleep deprivation they incur.” (Quan, Podcast Transcript (Apr. 2011) 7 J. Clin. Sleep Med. 2, http://www.aasmnet.org/jcsm/rss/transcripts/0702.pdf)

Perhaps those opposed to delaying start times could write a counterpoint in the next edition of the Journal of Sleep Medicine, explaining to the medical community how Drs. Quan, Vorona, et al., got it wrong.

Opponents might also consider writing to the superintendents in these districts to let them know they’ve made a mistake by delaying start times -- http://schoolstarttime.org/2011/06/12/schools-recently-delaying-start-times/

(Vorona, Szklo-Coxe, Wu, Dubik, Zhao, & Ware, Dissimilar Teen Crash Rates in Two Neighboring Southeastern Virginia Cities with Different High School Start Times (Apr. 2011) 7 J. Clin. Sleep Med. 2, 145-151, http://www.aasmnet.org/jcsm/ViewAbstract.aspx?pid=28101, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21509328)

(Am. Acad. Sleep Med. (May 12, 2010) Teen Automobile Crash Rates are Higher When School Starts Earlier, http://www.aasmnet.org/Articles.aspx?id=1685)

(Danner, & Phillips, Adolescent Sleep, School Start Times, and Teen Motor Vehicle Crashes (Dec. 2008) 4 J. Clin. Sleep Med. 6, 533–535, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2603528/)

http://www.statisticstop10.com/Causes_of_Death_Older_Teens.html

I like it when we have daylight longer. I love summer. I love fall. Screw winter and spring.

sciencebased Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Students at later starting schools have
> significantly fewer car accidents, the leading
> cause of death among teens, accounting for
> approximately 40% of all teen fatalities.
>
> Earlier this year, Harvard Professor of Medicine
> and sleep expert Stuart Quan commented on the
> Vorona study, infra, the second study to associate
> early high school start times with significantly
> increased frequencies of automobile accidents, and
> later start times with significantly decreased
> frequencies:
>
> “They are additional data suggesting that high
> school start times should be delayed to increase
> the amount of sleep that teenagers get during the
> school week and, hence, reduce the amount of sleep
> deprivation they incur.” (Quan, Podcast
> Transcript (Apr. 2011) 7 J. Clin. Sleep Med. 2,
> http://www.aasmnet.org/jcsm/rss/transcripts/0702.p
> df)
>
> Perhaps those opposed to delaying start times
> could write a counterpoint in the next edition of
> the Journal of Sleep Medicine, explaining to the
> medical community how Drs. Quan, Vorona, et al.,
> got it wrong.
>
> Opponents might also consider writing to the
> superintendents in these districts to let them
> know they’ve made a mistake by delaying start
> times --
> http://schoolstarttime.org/2011/06/12/schools-rece
> ntly-delaying-start-times/
>
> (Vorona, Szklo-Coxe, Wu, Dubik, Zhao, & Ware,
> Dissimilar Teen Crash Rates in Two Neighboring
> Southeastern Virginia Cities with Different High
> School Start Times (Apr. 2011) 7 J. Clin. Sleep
> Med. 2, 145-151,
> http://www.aasmnet.org/jcsm/ViewAbstract.aspx?pid=
> 28101,
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21509328)
>
> (Am. Acad. Sleep Med. (May 12, 2010) Teen
> Automobile Crash Rates are Higher When School
> Starts Earlier,
> http://www.aasmnet.org/Articles.aspx?id=1685)
>
> (Danner, & Phillips, Adolescent Sleep, School
> Start Times, and Teen Motor Vehicle Crashes (Dec.
> 2008) 4 J. Clin. Sleep Med. 6, 533–535,
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC260352
> 8/)
>
> http://www.statisticstop10.com/Causes_of_Death_Old
> er_Teens.html


Simple solution to the accident rate, let them ride the big yellow cheese, we are paying for it whether there is one or 40 on it. Proof again we are raising a generation of pussies. I can hear their first job interview, "oh Ill have to turn this job down, your company starts work too early". Oh, and please find and report back with the number of fatal teen acidents that have occured on the way to school in FX County in the past 10 years. I am anxious to hear because I dont believe there have been any.

another bullshit study with bullshit reasonss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sciencebased Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Students at later starting schools have
> > significantly fewer car accidents, the leading
> > cause of death among teens, accounting for
> > approximately 40% of all teen fatalities.
> >
> > Earlier this year, Harvard Professor of
> Medicine
> > and sleep expert Stuart Quan commented on the
> > Vorona study, infra, the second study to
> associate
> > early high school start times with
> significantly
> > increased frequencies of automobile accidents,
> and
> > later start times with significantly decreased
> > frequencies:
> >
> > “They are additional data suggesting that
> high
> > school start times should be delayed to
> increase
> > the amount of sleep that teenagers get during
> the
> > school week and, hence, reduce the amount of
> sleep
> > deprivation they incur.” (Quan, Podcast
> > Transcript (Apr. 2011) 7 J. Clin. Sleep Med. 2,
> >
> http://www.aasmnet.org/jcsm/rss/transcripts/0702.p
>
> > df)
> >
> > Perhaps those opposed to delaying start times
> > could write a counterpoint in the next edition
> of
> > the Journal of Sleep Medicine, explaining to
> the
> > medical community how Drs. Quan, Vorona, et
> al.,
> > got it wrong.
> >
> > Opponents might also consider writing to the
> > superintendents in these districts to let them
> > know they’ve made a mistake by delaying start
> > times --
> >
> http://schoolstarttime.org/2011/06/12/schools-rece
>
> > ntly-delaying-start-times/
> >
> > (Vorona, Szklo-Coxe, Wu, Dubik, Zhao, & Ware,
> > Dissimilar Teen Crash Rates in Two Neighboring
> > Southeastern Virginia Cities with Different
> High
> > School Start Times (Apr. 2011) 7 J. Clin. Sleep
> > Med. 2, 145-151,
> >
> http://www.aasmnet.org/jcsm/ViewAbstract.aspx?pid=
>
> > 28101,
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21509328)
> >
> > (Am. Acad. Sleep Med. (May 12, 2010) Teen
> > Automobile Crash Rates are Higher When School
> > Starts Earlier,
> > http://www.aasmnet.org/Articles.aspx?id=1685)
> >
> > (Danner, & Phillips, Adolescent Sleep, School
> > Start Times, and Teen Motor Vehicle Crashes
> (Dec.
> > 2008) 4 J. Clin. Sleep Med. 6, 533–535,
> >
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC260352
>
> > 8/)
> >
> >
> http://www.statisticstop10.com/Causes_of_Death_Old
>
> > er_Teens.html
>
>
> Simple solution to the accident rate, let them
> ride the big yellow cheese, we are paying for it
> whether there is one or 40 on it. Proof again we
> are raising a generation of pussies. I can hear
> their first job interview, "oh Ill have to turn
> this job down, your company starts work too
> early". Oh, and please find and report back with
> the number of fatal teen acidents that have
> occured on the way to school in FX County in the
> past 10 years. I am anxious to hear because I dont
> believe there have been any.

I agree ride the bus...that will reduce accident rates in general. If you're going to drive yourself don't stay up until 1AM then stop at McDonalds when you got up 20 minutes before the start of school. Why are teen drivers more accident prone...because they are teen drivers end of story. Why does a teen driver get in an accident on the way to school? Sometimes it's nothing they did but other times it's sheer recklessness.

Oh I'm late let me speed to not get another tardy...well speeding get ya killed son they told you that in Drivers Ed! And then instead of being on time they stop for breakfast...seriously your late and your stopping that's idiotic.

Yes adults are late for work they speed to...yes they stop for food and get there later...regardless, adults face the same consequences the only difference is most adults aren't going to their bosses saying hey I was up late watching whatever so I need to sleep in to be on-time.

I never liked riding the bus so I get as a teen driver; bus to car is a big deal but don't go throwing horse crap at the masses to justify a later start time.

You choose to drive yourself, therefore, you choose when to arrive, therefore you must choose how to budget time the night before to be on time the next day.

If you ride the bus, you will be on-time (as long as there are no accidents or crazyness on your route) because someone chose and decided that bus can get you there before the set start time for school is.

another bullshit study with bullshit reasonss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sciencebased Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Students at later starting schools have
> > significantly fewer car accidents, the leading
> > cause of death among teens, accounting for
> > approximately 40% of all teen fatalities.
> >
> > Earlier this year, Harvard Professor of
> Medicine
> > and sleep expert Stuart Quan commented on the
> > Vorona study, infra, the second study to
> associate
> > early high school start times with
> significantly
> > increased frequencies of automobile accidents,
> and
> > later start times with significantly decreased
> > frequencies:
> >
> > “They are additional data suggesting that
> high
> > school start times should be delayed to
> increase
> > the amount of sleep that teenagers get during
> the
> > school week and, hence, reduce the amount of
> sleep
> > deprivation they incur.” (Quan, Podcast
> > Transcript (Apr. 2011) 7 J. Clin. Sleep Med. 2,
> >
> http://www.aasmnet.org/jcsm/rss/transcripts/0702.p
>
> > df)
> >
> > Perhaps those opposed to delaying start times
> > could write a counterpoint in the next edition
> of
> > the Journal of Sleep Medicine, explaining to
> the
> > medical community how Drs. Quan, Vorona, et
> al.,
> > got it wrong.
> >
> > Opponents might also consider writing to the
> > superintendents in these districts to let them
> > know they’ve made a mistake by delaying start
> > times --
> >
> http://schoolstarttime.org/2011/06/12/schools-rece
>
> > ntly-delaying-start-times/
> >
> > (Vorona, Szklo-Coxe, Wu, Dubik, Zhao, & Ware,
> > Dissimilar Teen Crash Rates in Two Neighboring
> > Southeastern Virginia Cities with Different
> High
> > School Start Times (Apr. 2011) 7 J. Clin. Sleep
> > Med. 2, 145-151,
> >
> http://www.aasmnet.org/jcsm/ViewAbstract.aspx?pid=
>
> > 28101,
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21509328)
> >
> > (Am. Acad. Sleep Med. (May 12, 2010) Teen
> > Automobile Crash Rates are Higher When School
> > Starts Earlier,
> > http://www.aasmnet.org/Articles.aspx?id=1685)
> >
> > (Danner, & Phillips, Adolescent Sleep, School
> > Start Times, and Teen Motor Vehicle Crashes
> (Dec.
> > 2008) 4 J. Clin. Sleep Med. 6, 533–535,
> >
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC260352
>
> > 8/)
> >
> >
> http://www.statisticstop10.com/Causes_of_Death_Old
>
> > er_Teens.html
>
>
> Simple solution to the accident rate, let them
> ride the big yellow cheese, we are paying for it
> whether there is one or 40 on it. Proof again we
> are raising a generation of pussies. I can hear
> their first job interview, "oh Ill have to turn
> this job down, your company starts work too
> early". Oh, and please find and report back with
> the number of fatal teen acidents that have
> occured on the way to school in FX County in the
> past 10 years. I am anxious to hear because I dont
> believe there have been any.

There is probably a report and most people would say 1 is higher than the number should be but things happen and that's life. I think you hear more about teenage drivers in accidents on Friday nights or the weekends then actually before or after school. And 9 times out of 10 those accidents are for the same reasons that adults get in accidents. Speeding, aggressive driving, being late (curfew, I know adults don't have curfew), drinking, drugs, stupidity, not being familiar with the road, etc.

yep again Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> There is probably a report and most people would
> say 1 is higher than the number should be but
> things happen and that's life. I think you hear
> more about teenage drivers in accidents on Friday
> nights or the weekends then actually before or
> after school. And 9 times out of 10 those
> accidents are for the same reasons that adults get
> in accidents. Speeding, aggressive driving, being
> late (curfew, I know adults don't have curfew),
> drinking, drugs, stupidity, not being familiar
> with the road, etc.


With the number of mind-blowing blowjobs I've received while driving, I've often wondered (though not while receiving, my mind is somewhere else) why you almost never read of accidents caused by this behavior. Especially for young drivers. Much more of a threat than not getting an hour more SLEEP.

Hey science based - how about throwing some science based articles from some neutral sources that don't have an agenda to push?

If you went to bed at 9 and woke up at 5:30 you would get 8-and-a-half hours of sleep ... stop your whining and take some responsibility.

Let's not forget folks, when this issue showed up in 2009, over 60% of parents and over 70% of students and faculty preferred to have no substantial changes in the scheduling.

I say down with SLEEP's vocal minority!

A 2005 study published in “Pediatrics,” the official Journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, concluded, “School schedules are forcing [adolescents] to lose sleep and to perform academically when they are at their worst.”

Because sleep/wake patterns are biologically delayed in adolescents, waking a teenager at 7 a.m. is “equivalent” to waking up an adult at 4 a.m.

(West, Carrell, & Maghakian, A’s from Zzzz’s? The Causal Effect of School Start Time on the Academic Performance of Adolescents (Aug. 2011) 3 AEJ: Econ. Policy 3, 62-81, http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/scarrell/sleep.pdf; see also, Delisio, It’s About Time (and Sleep): Making the Case for Starting School Later (Jun. 3, 2003) Ed. World, http://www.educationworld.com/a_admin/admin/admin314.shtml)

(Hansen, Janssen, Schiff, Zee, & Dubocovich, The Impact of School Daily Schedule on Adolescent Sleep (Jun. 2005) 115 Pediatr. 6, 1555-1561, http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/115/6/1555.pdf)

(Am. Lung Assoc., Sleep Disorders Section, School Daze: A Wake Up Call, http://www.lungusa.org/associations/charters/new-england/programs/msb/sleep-disorders-section.html)

“The timing of education is also important. There is clear evidence for a phase shift during adolescence, with adolescents going to bed later and rising later than children. This phase shift is largely biological, with adolescents typically unable to fall asleep at earlier times. For the most part, school systems have not considered this adolescent phase shift, with many systems traditionally having earlier (rather than later) start dates for high school than for grade school students. By recognizing the shift in biological rhythms during adolescence and delaying school start times accordingly, classroom experience can be matched to the times when adolescents are most alert and attentive.”

(Coch, Fischer, & Dawson, Human Behavior, Learning, and the Developing Brain: Typical Development (Informa Healthcare 2010) pp. 382-383.)

“Most adolescents are sub-optimally alert in the morning. Yet their biological clocks program them to go to sleep late--too late to get an optimal amount of sleep before the next school day begins. If we as a society are sending kids to school to learn, it would be wise to send them in a condition that fosters learning.” --- Mark Mahowald, M.D., University of Minnesota, Neurology Department; Professor and Chair, Hennepin County Medical Center; Director, Minnesota Regional Sleep Disorders Center.

(Lamberg, Teens aren’t lying -- they really need to sleep later (Dec. 5, 1994) Am. Med. News, p. 24, http://teensneedsleep.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/teens-arent-lying-they-really-need-to-sleep-later-p-1.pdf)

“[T]hese early school start times are just abusive.” --- Mary Carskadon, Ph.D., Professor of Psychiatry & Human Behavior, Brown University; Director, Chronobiology and Sleep Research, Bradley Hospital.

(Carpenter, Sleep deprivation may be undermining teen health (Oct. 2001) 32 APA Mon. Psych. 9, http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct01/sleepteen.aspx)

Citing the “deleterious impact of school times on our teenagers,” Dr. Janet B. Croft, a senior epidemiologist at the CDC, referred to early high school start times as “an unrealistic burden on children and their families. ... It can change lives to change school start times. They can’t concentrate that early when driving that early in the dark. They stay sleepy all the day.”

(Park, Falling Asleep in Class? Blame Biology (Dec. 15, 2008) CNN, http://edition.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/12/12/sleep.teenagers.school/index.html)

“There is a need for educators to be more aware of the impact of school start times and academic scheduling, and to consider sleep problems as potential factors in students who fail to achieve or who exhibit behavioural problems. While it may be administratively convenient to begin high school classes early, there is strong evidence in our data, supported by the literature, suggesting that later start times would be more appropriate for teens.”

(Gibson, Powles, Thabane, O’Brien, Molnar, Trajanovic, Ogilvie, Shapiro, Yan, & Chilcott-Tanser, “Sleepiness” is serious in adolescence: Two surveys of 3235 Canadian students (May 2006) 6 BMC Pub. Health 116, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1464124/pdf/1471-2458-6-116.pdf;

“Students at later starting middle and high schools obtain more sleep due to later wake times and, in turn, function more effectively in school.”

(Wolfson, Spaulding, Dandrow, & Baroni, Middle School Start Times: The Importance of a Good Night’s Sleep for Young Adolescents (Aug. 15, 2007) 5 Behav. Sleep Med. 3, 194-209, http://www.slrsd.org/slrhs/information/pdf/Wolfson%20et%20al%20(2007).pdf)

“[C]hildren and adolescents with restricted sleep are at greater risk for increased oppositionality and irritability, as well as reduced attention, executive functioning, processing speed, behavioral/emotional regulation, motivation and academic achievement. ... Certainly this causal link between between sleep loss and impaired functioning in children and adolescents provides the impetus for consideration of delaying school start times, particularly for adolescents, who are experiencing a natural delay in circadian rhythm.”

(Crabtree & Witcher, Impact of Sleep Loss on Children and Adolescents, publish. in, Sleep and Psychiatric Disorders in Children and Adolescents (Informa Healthcare 2008, Ivanenko edit.) p. 144.)

“Schools with start times before 8:30 a.m. place students at a disadvantage in terms of arousal and alertness, not only for early morning classes but also throughout the day because adolescents’ biological rhythms are out of sync with typical school routines.” (29)

(Dawson, Sleep and Adolescents (Jan. 2005) Counseling 101, 11-15, http://www.nasponline.org/resources/principals/Sleep%20Disorders%20WEB.pdf)

“Right now, high schools usually start earlier in the morning than elementary schools. But if school start times were based on sleep cycles, elementary schools should start at 7:30 and high schools at 8:30 or 8:45—right now it’s the reverse. School systems should be thinking about changing their start times. It would not be easy—they would have to change the busing system—but it would increase their student’s sleep time and likely improve their school performance.”

(Am. Thoracic Soc. (May 20, 2007) Start School Later in the Morning, Say Sleepy Teens, http://www-archive.thoracic.org/sections/publications/press-releases/conference/articles/2007/press-releases/start-school-later-in-the-morning,-say-sleepy-teens.html)

“Although providing a home environment to promote healthy sleep is the first step to eliminating sleep deprivation in adolescents, increased public awareness of the impact of sleep and learning on learning and behavior is important. For this to occur legislation to ensure that high school start times to not begin before 9:00 a.m. may help in reducing sleep deprivation leading to improved academic performance and behavior[.]”

(Mitru, Millrood, & Mateika, The Impact of Sleep on Learning and Behavior in Adolescents (Jun. 2002) 104 Teachers College Record 4, 704-726, http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?contentid=10893)

Teens just have to go to bed earlier. Then they will get enough sleep. End of story.

Smiley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yep again Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> > more about teenage drivers in accidents on
> Friday
> > nights or the weekends then actually before or
> > after school.
>
>
> With the number of mind-blowing blowjobs I've
> received while driving, I've often wondered
> (though not while receiving, my mind is somewhere
> else) why you almost never read of accidents
> caused by this behavior. Especially for young
> drivers. Much more of a threat than not getting
> an hour more SLEEP.


Best thing to do after a blowjob is to sleep. Then go to school smiling the next day.

Probably an epic fail on my part to resurrect this thread (and give SLEEP a bump in the process) but I found this article interesting. It's just one study, but it basically says that kids who go to bed early and get up earlier tend to be leaner and more physically active.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Kids who follow Ben Franklin’s “early to bed, early to rise” principle are ultimately leaner and in better shape than those who stay up late and sleep in, according to a new study by Australian researchers.

Even though both would be getting the same amount of sleep, preteens and teens who go to bed earlier and wake up earlier are slimmer and more physically active than their peers who do not, according to the study published in the Oct. 1 issue of the journal SLEEP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you want to read the whole thing: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2011/09/30/early-to-bed-early-to-rise-proves-healthier-for-teens/

hs coach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is not an issue. Get over it. By making
> this change, you will be putting young ES kids out
> to bus stops at 6:30, not safe.
>
> Later start time, later practice times, HS kids
> getting home later, staying up later, still being
> tired for the next day.
>
> This would solve nothing. How about parents
> enforce a bed time, now there is a crazy idea.

++1!

Richard Kuklinski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hs coach Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> This is not an issue. Get over it. By making this change, you will be putting young ES kids out to bus stops at 6:30, not safe.
>
> Later start time, later practice times, HS kids getting home later, staying up later, still being tired for the next day.

> This would solve nothing. How about parents enforce a bed time, now there is a crazy idea.<

75 other Va county's follow a later bell schedule without any of these effects.

Stone bridge is on the later bell schedule and cleans FCPS schools in football and SATs.

No need for elementary kids to be on the streets @ 6:30. But they're actually more alert in the early am than high school kids.

So you each dinner at 6:30 instead of 5:30.

Kids safety and health are more important than your convenience.

Thomas More Wrote:

> Kids safety and health are more important than
> your convenience.

As I noted in the article I posted ... and yes I realize it is just one study ... those children who go to bed earlier and wake up earlier tend to be leaner and more physically active. I don't think it's much of a stretch to infer that early to bed and early to rise is a healthier option for our kids based on this study.

Correlation does not equal causation. You're misrepresenting what that article says.

My coonhound is smarter than your student!

The study in question involved both pre- and post-pubescent children, 9-16 years of age. The earliest rise time reported in the study was 7:03 a.m., 17 minutes before Fairfax high schools get underway in the morning - http://www.journalsleep.org/ViewAbstract.aspx?pid=28265 (subscribers only)

Short sleep duration in adolescents is closely associated with overweight. (Press Release, Less sleep may add up to more pounds in adolescents (May 4, 2010) Pediatr. Acad. Soc., http://www.pas-meeting.org/2010Vancouver/Press/Press%20Releases/Tuesday/Lytle%204325.7.pdf; Am. Acad. Sleep Med. (Aug. 23, 2010) Less is More: Study Shows that Teens Who Sleep Less Eat More Fatty Foods and Snacks, http://www.aasmnet.org/articles.aspx?id=1857)

The vast majority of adolescents attending early starting schools experience restricted sleep; i.e., short sleep duration. (Knutson & Lauderdale, Sociodemographic and behavioral predictors of bed time and wake time among U.S. adolescents aged 15–17 years (Mar. 2009) 154 J. Pediatr. 3, 426–430, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2783185/)

Economists from Columbia University and the University of Michigan associate later start times for adolescents with increased future earnings. The study, "Organizing Schools to Improve Student Achievement: Start Times, Grade Configurations, and Teacher Assignments," is available here -- http://schoolstarttime.org/2011/05/02/selected-literature/

I just tried the first 10 links on the "Summary" page. They all worked. The research appears to include a substantial array of scientific resources.

Using "http" as a search term returned over 300 hits in the PDF document available at the website. You allege one failed? That's quite an indictment. Did you notify the site owner in order to discern whether the problem might be remedied?

Can you point to even one study concluding later start times for adolescents is a poor idea? Opponents of delayed start times appear to have a lot to say, but zero science or scientists to support their position.

I googled the names of the two guys who left comments at this page -- http://schoolstarttime.org/2011/05/02/selected-literature/

They're both professors of medicine. What professors support your view?

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stone bridge is on the later bell schedule and
> cleans FCPS schools in football and SATs.
>

Not a very convincing correlation. You should make your argument on its own merits and not rely on a specious appeal to Stone Bridge-envy.

Stone Bridge often cleans FCPS schools in football because it's near the Redskins training camp in Ashburn. It doesn't have anything to do with the starting time at the school. Chantilly is 5-0 this year, and South Lakes is 0-5, and they both have the same bell schedule.

There are many FCPS schools that have higher SAT scores than Stone Bridge, including TJ, Langley, McLean, Woodson, Madison, Oakton, Marshall, Robinson, Laek Braddock and, in some years, Herndon.

the guy who runs http://schoolstarttime.org/ apparently anticipated the possibility of broken links. right on the home page it says URLs are available in the endnotes and the PDF document. did you try either of those?

can you give us even one study casting doubt on any of the research undertaken by the world's leading adolescent sleep scientist (and fierce advocate of later start times), Mary Carskadon?

“For policy makers, teachers and parents, these results provide a clear mandate. The effects of sleep deprivation on grades, car accident risk, and mood are indisputable. A number of school districts have moved middle and high school start times later with the goal of decreasing teenage sleep deprivation. We support this approach, as results indicate that later school start times lead to decreased truancy and drop-out rates.”

Hagenauer, Perryman, Lee, & Carskadon, Adolescent Changes in the Homeostatic and Circadian Regulation of Sleep (Jun. 2009) 31 Dev. Neurosci. 4, 276-284, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2820578/

http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2010/06/sleep

http://research.brown.edu/myresearch/Mary_Carskadon

Show me a school district with as many student as FCPS has and I may change my mind on the issue. I'll wait. Doubt it, but i'll wait.

well do you know how mcuh work IB and honors are?! We're up all fucking night doing shitty ass homework and getting no sleep so shut the fuck up when Billy Mays is talking

THANK YOU! You're the only person that can get the facts through their fucking concrete hollow heads. You understand us so well

well do you know how mcuh work IB and honors are?! We're up all fucking night doing shitty ass homework and getting no sleep so shut the fuck up when Billy Mays is talking

well do you know how mcuh work IB and honors are?! We're up all fucking night doing shitty ass homework and getting no sleep so shut the fuck up when Billy Mays is talking.

well do you know how mcuh work IB and honors are?! We're up all fucking night doing shitty ass homework and getting no sleep so shut the fuck up when Billy Mays is talking..

well do you know how mcuh work IB and honors are?! We're up all fucking night doing shitty ass homework and getting no sleep so shut the fuck up when Billy Mays is talking;

well do you know how mcuh work IB and honors are?! We're up all fucking night doing shitty ass homework and getting no sleep so shut the fuck up when Billy Mays is talking. Y'all are assholes and fuck yourself with a Hercules hook

FCPS does not have enough school buses to allow high schoolers to start later -- unless elementary school children start school even earlier.

Anyone with a lick of sense knows that K-6 school children need 2-3 more hours of sleep each night than high school teens do.

Bottom line is you cannot push back high school start times without making the elementary school kids get up even earlier. Thank goodness the school board knows this, and they will never make a decision to penalize K-6 kids.

High schoolers just need to go to bed earlier. They need to be off of their wireless electronic connections to facebook and all types of messaging. Parents need to engage. Case closed.

yeah dickhead. going to bed earilier seems a lot better idea. i (rarely even get the fucking chance) go to bed at 8:30 and yet, I feel even worse in the morning. I want to to see get up at fucking 6 AM every weekday and suck a dick. ALSO elemntary kids get Mondays as half days. We fucking need that not them. they dont understand the imprtance of a half day. like before, go fuck yourself with a Hercules hook and BTW, you're fucking messaging right now asshole

All of you fuckers who claim we should go to bed earlier should fuck yourselves with a Hercules hook. IB, AP, honors classes give out a shit load of hw. You have no idea what we live through. Not to mention tests and haven't you read our biological clocks are all messed up and we want to sleep later. Y'all are dumbasses and I'm fucking glad I'm moving back to Florida where education is as easy as putting kecthup on a hot dog. FUCK YOU JACK off DALE and all you supporters.
Also, if FCPS is really one of the richest (and crappiest) counties in the country, they should be able to afford to change times. (cause they suck dick!)

In most cases the majority of SLEEP advocates want the rest of the county's youth and families to change their schedule for them. They are imposing their beliefs on the majority of county parents. Some could say a similar scenario is OBAMACARE. What is perceived to be best for a few is best for all.

Phyllis Payne, Sandy Evans and others have or had kids who could not handle their school's start times. In these instances neither Evans nor Payne understood implications of after school activities such as sports and parents who relied on schedules for getting to family activities, jobs,etc.

Reports were done by SLEEP which kept trying to spin bussing times, routes and openings of middles and elementary schools. The county worked with these 2 ladies and spent thousands of dollars. Then the county went out to the public and the public said NO to the SLEEP initiative. This was not good enough and Evans and Payne cried foul. The issues continues, Evans is on the School Board, her only reason for running is to get earlier start times and apparently legalize the use of illegal drugs on school properties.

Hmm.. I seem to understand what you're trying to say but we need to at least move the hours back by ONE, just one not 2 or 3 JUST ONE hour.

Billy Mays Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All of you fuckers who claim we should go to bed
> earlier should fuck yourselves with a Hercules
> hook. IB, AP, honors classes give out a shit load
> of hw. You have no idea what we live through. Not
> to mention tests and haven't you read our
> biological clocks are all messed up and we want to
> sleep later. Y'all are dumbasses and I'm fucking
> glad I'm moving back to Florida where education is
> as easy as putting kecthup on a hot dog. FUCK YOU
> JACK off DALE and all you supporters.
> Also, if FCPS is really one of the richest (and
> crappiest) counties in the country, they should be
> able to afford to change times. (cause they suck
> dick!)


we are glad you are moving to Florida as well, we have an over abundance of smart ass know it all kids here now, please convince a few more to head south

cb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These special interest groups in the county are
> out of hand...
>
> SLEEP, FAIRGRADE, ZEROTOLERANCE UNDO, ONLINE
> TEXTBOOK.COM, and so on.
> >
> These special interest candidates are not the
> people the school board needs...they are going to
> focus on their interest and their interest alone
> and they will fight until they get what they want.


Uhhhh...the founder of FAIRGRADE is on the school board, and has already tried to push her ridiculous agenda. Most of the people elected in November have their own, specific interests that they are trying to push. So, your rant, while accurate, is about five months too late.

OOOHHHH!!! You just burned him!

Wow you're gay. DON'T INSULTE THE SOUTH. I WANT TO SEE YOU WAKE UP EVERDAY AT 6 AM. Can't say anything about that now can you?!

and thanks for calling me a smartass. Thats not how you insult people these days you fucking piece of dino shit

Billy Mays Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
GAY

You should use Orange Glo to wipe that shit off of your face. Now thats an insult asshole

Billy Mays Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All of you fuckers who claim we should go to bed
> earlier should fuck yourselves with a Hercules
> hook. IB, AP, honors classes give out a shit load
> of hw. You have no idea what we live through. Not
> to mention tests and haven't you read our
> biological clocks are all messed up and we want to
> sleep later. Y'all are dumbasses and I'm fucking
> glad I'm moving back to Florida where education is
> as easy as putting kecthup on a hot dog. FUCK YOU
> JACK off DALE and all you supporters.
> Also, if FCPS is really one of the richest (and
> crappiest) counties in the country, they should be
> able to afford to change times. (cause they suck
> dick!)


hahaha, welcome to the real world. Why should education be easy? If it's not a bit difficult, you won't learn a thing.

I'm not saying education is HARD. its friken easy. Whyd do you think I'm in IB and honors? BTW, I am in the real world . APTAL