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Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 06, 2011 09:47AM

We're told that 1 in 7 who apply from 8th grade to get into TJHSST actually get admitted. Do we have any stats, though, on the geographical distribution of those admitted? For example, Stone Middle School had 46 try to get in (I believe that's the number), 17 get past the first pruning, but only 3 actually get admitted. That is significantly worse than 1 in 7. Of course, this means somewhere ELSE had to have somewhat better than 1 in 7 admitted.

What was the cause of this difference - statistical noise? Or is there some other reason such as quality of teacher recommendation or essay preparation by the students. Or what? (*)

Anyhow, I was wondering if there was any more thorough statistics on the admission process other than "1 in 7 admitted". Like how many from each middle school get past the first round, how many then get admitted, what turned out to be the deciding parameters, etc.

-=-=-=-=-=-

(*) Student essays and teacher recommendations appear to be major factors after the first round of selection:

http://www.tjhsst.edu/abouttj/admissions/adm-process-wr.php

Could this suggest, for example, that Stone Middle School's teacher recommendations weren't, say, exciting enough? TJ gives (somewhere in some manual) examples of interesting/uninteresting recommendations - it seems wrong, frankly, that simply the quality of discourse of a teacher should decide whether a student gets into TJ, but that appears to be the case. Or is essay preparation by the students somehow lacking compared to elsewhere? Would that point a finger at funding (for, say, private prep classes) or something more intrinsic to the school like English paper writing?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Or... ()
Date: July 06, 2011 11:15AM

Maybe it means the parents at Stone think their kids are smarter than they really are.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: sumguy ()
Date: July 06, 2011 11:19AM

If your child is not in AAP classes then don't bother they won't be able to keep up with the other kids. Plus an above average student has less chances of getting accepted into a good college when chosen from a school for exceptional/genius kids.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: observation ()
Date: July 06, 2011 11:23AM

Stone does not have level IV GT. The schools with the largest numbers admitted had some of the largest GT populations.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Bill N ()
Date: July 06, 2011 12:44PM

I suspect that most of the decision on whether to admit a particular kid is based on the kid's TJ admissions test scores, the kid's overall GPA and how the kid did in Algebra and Geometry. If you look at those 3 Stone kids who got in, my guess is you will find they probably were in the top 10-20% of applicants on the admissions test score while almost all the ones who didn't get in scored less well. There will always be that kid that you wonder how did she get in, or how the hell could they have rejected him, and this is where those essays and recommendations came in.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 06, 2011 01:03PM

observation Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...The schools with the largest numbers admitted had some of the
> largest GT populations.

Your words suggest knowledge of admissions per middle school - got a reference?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 06, 2011 01:06PM

Bill N Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I suspect that most of the decision on whether to
> admit a particular kid is based on the kid's TJ
> admissions test scores, the kid's overall GPA and
> how the kid did in Algebra and Geometry. If you
> look at those 3 Stone kids who got in, my guess is
> you will find they probably were in the top 10-20%
> of applicants on the admissions test score while
> almost all the ones who didn't get in scored less
> well. There will always be that kid that you
> wonder how did she get in, or how the hell could
> they have rejected him, and this is where those
> essays and recommendations came in.

The link in the original post shows the actual weighting for the 2nd phase of the admissions - I would assume the essays and recs actually turned out to be the real deciding factors for admission since test scores and the student application itself should be (he says...) pretty uniform across all schools, leaving the very-ambiguously-defined essays and recs to be the most easily skewed by...whatever.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Jack Dell ()
Date: July 06, 2011 03:03PM

TJHSST Admissions

The middle schools with GT Centers generally have the highest number of admissions.

School 2005 2006 2007
Carson 36 56 61
Cooper 3 6 2
Franklin 4 3 2
Frost 35 32 38
Glasgow 9 8 7
Hayfield 2 4 3
Herndon 2 0 2
Holmes 2 1 0
Hughes 20 16 20
Irving 7 4 4
Jackson 4 0 2
Key 0 0 0
Kilmer 41 49 55
Lake Braddock 29 20 24
Lanier 3 9 4
Liberty 6 6 3
Longfellow 61 65 47
Poe 3 6 3
Robinson 12 10 9
Rocky Run 34 47 36
Sandburg 19 14 11
South County 2 8 1
Stone 4 0 2
Thoreau 11, 3 1
Twain 12 13 7
Whitman 3 3 1

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: C. Ocklange ()
Date: July 06, 2011 03:34PM

Top Six for 2009-2010

68 Carson
66 Longfellow
45 Rocky Run
34 Kilmer
31 Frost
23 Lake Braddock

Bottom Six for 2009-2010

0 Whitman
0 Key
0 Hayfield
0 Holmes
0 Stone
0 Cooper

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 06, 2011 03:49PM

Can you say where these stats came from?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: observation ()
Date: July 06, 2011 03:49PM

http://fairfaxstation.patch.com/articles/thomas-jefferson-high-school-admissions-increasingly-selective

Numbers in AAP centers at the middle school can be found on membership profile tab at each middle school at www.fcps.edu. Go to "schools and centers"

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 06, 2011 05:03PM

Thanks for that link.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: July 06, 2011 07:35PM

curiously refreshing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>>since test scores and the student application itself should be (he says...) pretty uniform across all schools

Test scores are not uniform across the middle schools. GT Center acceptance is largely based on test scores so guess which MSes have the highest number of kids who get through the first round (combined test score/GPA scale).

Once the kids make it past the 1st cut, however, squishy factors are more heavily weighted than the base test scores. Second round scores include math/science GPA and JT math section scores, but essays and applications - liking to color so the kid got good grades in "science" & recs from the kid's science teacher because the kid colored beautifully & BS about how the kid loves to color for science - are more heavily weighted.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 06, 2011 07:58PM

Actually, I would bet the admissions are skewed towards the squishy factors like the essays and teacher recs since they are such large percentages in the overall scoring.

What is beginning to concern me, however, is not so much the weighting per se but the EXPERIENCE of the teachers themselves in writing recommendations. I think a talented kid, regardless school, can be prepared for just about anything the kid herself has to do for this admission process. But the kid has no control over the quality of the teacher recommendation - and that's scary. Going with the Stone Middle School example, only 17 or so kids made it to the point where a teacher recommendation was required. And only 3 passed that point to get admitted. Yet with the GT schools probably more than a hundred per school made it to the teacher rec point (*). To say THOSE teachers have strong advantage over, say, Stone teachers, in writing recs would be a gross understatement; they can write superlative recs in their sleep! And so the GT applicants, even if exactly equal to nonGT applicants, have strong advantage in the admissions process.

I think a LOT more openness with both raw and cooked data is needed here. The data IS there; that data SHOULD have been compiled, graphed, analyzed, etc by SOMEONE. But that data for sure should be "out here" to be pored over by doting parents among others.

=-=-=-=-=-=-

(*) If the numbers from that AnnandalePatch article are indeed correct we have alittle more information about the admissions process - we know that GT-schools have a lot of students accepted into TJ. We don't know, however, how many GT-school applicants there were in the first place, for example - maybe the GT school ultimate acceptance rate isn't any better than Stone Middle School! Or maybe it really is 20 times better (which is ridiculous, IMHO).

What we need as far as data is concerned is complete revelation of all scores for admitted individuals from EACH school (or with "school" as part of the data set/point). Those could be presented both in plain old tabular form as well as graphically to see if there are factors, such as learned teacher recs, that are skewing admissions "unfairly" beyond the to-be-expected-and-acceptable academic score skews.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 06, 2011 08:01PM

Pardon, I should have more strongly noted that I've been talking about 2nd phase admissions factors all along. Initial phases, such as the Admissions Test, are assumed to have been passed at some nicely high level as well as GPAs by all applicants who are competing against each other.

Thus the probably-biased, and IMHO probably-unfairly-biased, squishy factors strongly come into play.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: July 06, 2011 10:45PM

curiously refreshing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Initial phases, such as the
> Admissions Test, are assumed to have been passed
> at some nicely high level as well as GPAs by all
> applicants who are competing against each other.
>

Actually the test isn't all that hard to begin with and a kid can pass the test getting only 65% of the questions correct and to make it to the second round if the kid's grades are >= 3.67. (Not many kids with this combo have any chance of getting accepted, but they do make the second round. Somebody FOIA'ed the results about 6 years ago that I saw, but I can't find the link. Had test scores/GPA/admit statistics for every kid who applied. Nearly all the top scorers got in, but it did tail off quite a ways down...)

http://www.tjhsst.edu/abouttj/admissions/decision.php

Also, here's the official second round rules -

http://www.tjhsst.edu/abouttj/admissions/adm-process-wr.php

And, there are those who believe that a) setting such low standards for passing the first round and b) the squishy second round criteria is all about admitting kids who otherwise are unqualified...

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: so ()
Date: July 06, 2011 11:09PM

So how do all those Korean kids (not local Korean kids, but the ones that are shipped over and housed in group homes for the four years) get past the "squishy" stuff and teacher recs?

Some of them have limited English skills, so how the hell do they write an essay? Or does the ROK Embassy write it for them?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: July 07, 2011 04:39AM

For additional data and other information, see http://www.fcag.org/tjinfo.html

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 07, 2011 07:31AM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For additional data and other information, see
> http://www.fcag.org/tjinfo.html

Thanks, good link.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 07, 2011 08:06AM

The 2nd page of http://www.fcag.org/documents/tj/attachment4b.pdf from the above FCAG link is the type of info that should be published and easily available every year.

It would be interesting to see pan-student/pan-school scores on all factors for admission, especially the out-of-the-students'-hands teacher recs scores. I would bet (and I am indeed biased without strong reason) that the teacher rec scores from the schools with the most "pool" students (semi-finalists) would be dramatically better than the other schools. Indeed, I can't see how those recs couldn't be dramatically better - the teachers are very used to writing them, they've done it literally hundreds of times, the other schools' teachers are practically totally inexperienced.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I have to wonder how many of the "other" schools' teacher even read the "How to write a rec" manual that is made available to them:

http://www.tjhsst.edu/abouttj/admissions/docs/teachrec-guidelines-2011.pdf

With all the other work they have to do this "make it good and interesting" requirement for the recs could be a real task.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: observation ()
Date: July 07, 2011 08:34AM

The only way that the process can be "fair" is to go back to test only. That also goes for elementary GT. Once upon a time in FCPS, only the kids with the very top scores got into elementary GT. I think FCPS needs to go back to that. Even the scale they use for students in elementary is subjective.

The GT centers are so large now that there are many unintended consequences: long bus routes, empty buses, enrollment projections, etc, etc. How many kids from Clifton were in the GT center? If they had all been at the home school, what would Clifton's enrollment have been? Clifton had very high test scores for a school without a center--was there really a need to send kids out of the school? This is an unintended consequence. How much money is being spent on transportation for GT kids? Many, Many GT parents choose to drive their kids rather than have them have on long, early bus rides.

Many GT center kids are devastated when they don't get into TJ--they feel like failures because they have been told how smart they are. Many of them worked hard toward the goal of getting into TJ.

I am not denying a need for GT centers--but I think the size needs to be relooked.

I don't really have the answers--but I do know that success is not determined only by where you go to school.

As for the TJ "pool", it stands to reason that middle schools with GT centers would have much larger pools since the students got there partly through tests.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 07, 2011 09:00AM

I think tests for sure should be used for TJ's (or anywhere else special) admission. I also don't really have a problem with essays (three of them if you count the Student Application one though I have to wonder how many of THOSE actually are written by the students themselves).

I do have a problem with the teacher recs (No!? Really!?). I do not think those should be prose - that tilts the scores totally toward the experienced writers (not students, but TEACHERS!) and, I would think, toward the teachers who have the self-image of being "teachers to the (school) stars" thus want THEIR Special Students to succeed. Instead, I think the teacher recs should be strictly "check offs" or maybe "multiple choice" forms of some sort - those are fairly unambiguous w.r.t. "scoring" and would eliminate bias based on experience with writing wordy prose. There are problems with this, of course, but those problems would be the same across all students (and probably could be resolved by someone much more experienced in this kind of thing than myself!).

=-=-=-=-=-=-

The 2nd page of http://www.fcag.org/documents/tj/attachment4b.pdf has a bunch of numbers - Sent (not sure what that is), Applied, Pool, WD-pool (not sure what that is), and Accepted. Looking over JUST those numbers I don't really have a problem with the Accepted results. But there're some blanks that I'd like to see filled in - scores for all the factors (and in my particular case, scores on those teacher recs) - not just averaged, BTW, but the complete data set that could be drilled through in any manner one wants.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: The Truth ()
Date: July 07, 2011 06:21PM

1. Favorable teacher recs don't help you..they're a dime a dozen. Unfavorable teacher recs can hurt you.

2. The subjective part of the admissions process was broadened to identify gifted and talented students across the spectrum in non-traditional areas.

3. Many students cheat their way into TJ by cheating on tests, plagiarizing reports, submitting parent-produced work. Therefore, a non-testing metric is necessary to be sure that the student is capable, not just an automated parent-driven robot.

4. Asians benefit from the extra testing provided by after-school tutoring mills. While your kids are off doing Facebook and video games, they are becoming test savvy. To the victor goes the spoils...so suck it up.

5. Too many of the kids that are bound for TJ are socially maladjusted...most of them "find their way" at TJ among a common peer group. However, they are a few that are "on the spectrum" and certifiable. Look what Mommy and Daddy created.

6. TJ is not the end all be all. Stay at your home school and excel, and you have a better chance at admissions. Guess which FFX high school sent kids to MIT, Princeton, an Penn this school year. Not TJ, but Lake Braddock. As Casey Stengel said, you can look it up.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Confucius ()
Date: July 07, 2011 06:30PM

If the admissions standards for TJ were 100% objective, then Asians would constitute 85% of the enrollment instead of 45%. The loosey-goosey standards are for pushy, entitle, privileged, "my kid is bright but doesn't test well," White parents to advocate for little Hannah and Rider to ride in on someone else's coattils.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Jean Piaget ()
Date: July 07, 2011 06:33PM

>> Curiously Refreshing <<. Life isn't over. Your child is not a failure. Give him/her a hug and move on to you boundary-zoned, mega-sized, splitting at the seams public high school just like everyone else.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 07, 2011 07:04PM

The Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. Favorable teacher recs don't help you..they're
> a dime a dozen. Unfavorable teacher recs can
> hurt you.

If this were true it would be fantastic. I'm not worried about favorable/unfavorable causing this particular factor to get a low "score", I'm worried that some inexperienced-with-writing-TJ-recs teacher will write a ho-hum rec that doesn't excite the reviewers to give a higher score. TJ actually gives examples of essentially the SAME rec written two different ways and says one is better than the other because it provides more color - crap, that's all I can say to that - it means the experienced rec writer "wins" to the unfortunate-not-to-hae-an-experienced-rec-writer student's dismay.

> 2. The subjective part of the admissions process
> was broadened to identify gifted and talented
> students across the spectrum in non-traditional
> areas.

Yeah, I read that letter from the Known Geek about tryhing to get around pure test results - can't argue with it!

> 3. Many students cheat their way into TJ by
> cheating on tests, plagiarizing reports,
> submitting parent-produced work. Therefore, a
> non-testing metric is necessary to be sure that
> the student is capable, not just an automated
> parent-driven robot.

It's not clear how many do this, however that Student Application essay certainly is begging for parental involvement.

> 4. Asians benefit from the extra testing provided
> by after-school tutoring mills. While your kids
> are off doing Facebook and video games, they are
> becoming test savvy. To the victor goes the
> spoils...so suck it up.

I would assume a lot of the kids do this, not just Asians. We already know w.r.t. Asians that a work-culture is present and, in some case, The Infamous Tiger Mom is very present (we actually know a couple students in JUST that situation!).

BTW - my daughter is Asian American. When she started elementary school she would come home, hit the john, have a snack, and IMMEDIATELY do all her homework. We're talking a kid barely old enough to walk. She certainly did not learn that behavior overtly from her parents (my wife and I). Perhaps there is something more subtle going on here. Or perhaps the fact she's Asian American is irrelevant.

> 5. Too many of the kids that are bound for TJ are
> socially maladjusted...most of them "find their
> way" at TJ among a common peer group. However,
> they are a few that are "on the spectrum" and
> certifiable. Look what Mommy and Daddy created.

I've seen nothing that suggests TJ students are maladjusted in general nor that the TJ student population is skewed toward maladjusted. Dont suppose you have a link to back that particular statement up, huh?

> 6. TJ is not the end all be all.

True. In fact, until the poorly-attended TJ orientation was given at her middle school, my daughter (and myself) weren't interested in the effort to try to get her into TJ (as we were not interested earlier in her educational career in trying to get her into a GT school (she's a straight-A honors middle schooler right now)). But the orientation convinced HER that maybe the effort could be worth it; she liked what she heard about TJ.

> ...Stay at your home school and excel...

That's what she's going to do if she does not succeed in getting into TJ. We - the family as a whole - have no problem with that.

> ...and you have a better chance at admissions...

That's actually probably not true. Other than minimal bragging rights (afterall, who CARES what high school you went to!) the one thing TJ pretty much guarantees is smoother sailing into the college of one's choice. BTW - I thought I read recently that TJ had some ridiculous number of admissions to the VTs, Stanfords, and MITs of the world this time around...one moment...just found it:

http://www.tjhsst.edu/curriculum/dss/docs/tjprofile_2010.pdf

Yup - ridiculous acceptance.

In any case, my daughter wishy-washily still wants to try to get admitted to TJ and we back her up (as stated today to her at breakfast - "If you want to try, try. Practice that essay writing every day, take advantage of what is offered for you to prepare. We'll support your effort"). So we're supporting her effort by spending some time NOW on message boards and a gajillion other web sites to find out what it takes to excel at the admissions process - don't delay, start today!

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 07, 2011 07:15PM

> ...Practice that essay writing every day...

Each day I give my daughter 5 minutes to write about something - that's it, no more time than that with a very short followup on what she actually wrote and where she was going with it. Yesterday, for example, I made up a "ExxonMobil, a large oil company, has oil pipelines all over the country. One going through Yosemite National Park under the Yosemite River just broke and began spilling thousands of gallons of oil into the river. Who is at fault for this, what should be done about it? Be sure to consider ALL angles that you can think of".

As TJ suggests, one of the best ways to prepare for the very important essay part of the admissions process is to write, even if only 5 minutes per day. So we're doing just that - and the impact on my daughter is essentially zilch - she can enjoy her vacation still. We intend to continue to do this until I am totally braindead on making up essay questions!

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: snowdenscold ()
Date: July 08, 2011 03:20AM

curiously refreshing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I thought I read
> recently that TJ had some ridiculous number of
> admissions to the VTs, Stanfords, and MITs of the
> world this time around

Did you really just equate VT w/ Stanford and MIT, or did I misunderstand your intention?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: AnotherLurker ()
Date: July 08, 2011 08:33AM

snowdenscold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> curiously refreshing Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> I thought I read
> > recently that TJ had some ridiculous number of
> > admissions to the VTs, Stanfords, and MITs of
> the
> > world this time around
>
> Did you really just equate VT w/ Stanford and MIT,
> or did I misunderstand your intention?


Yeah, that one gave me pause. VT is a great school, but it is not MIT or Stanford or Cornell.

For those thinking of TJ for a better chance at college admissions, consider this:

Elite colleges are not going to take 480 students from one high school. Or 400 or 200. Alot of kids from TJ go to Virginia Tech. So do alot of kids from most high schools in Fairfax County. MIT is only going to take a small number of TJ kids even though most of them could probably do the work. There are alot of reasons to go to TJ, but a competitive advantage for college admissions is not one of them.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 08, 2011 08:38AM

snowdenscold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> curiously refreshing Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> I thought I read
> > recently that TJ had some ridiculous number of
> > admissions to the VTs, Stanfords, and MITs of
> the
> > world this time around
>
> Did you really just equate VT w/ Stanford and MIT,
> or did I misunderstand your intention?

There is some ranking floating around showing VT way up there - top-10/top-5 or something in some field; unfortunately I couldn't find it.

However, that part of my post was in response to this (the part I didn't quote):

> "...Guess which FFX high school sent kids to MIT, Princeton, an Penn this
> school year. Not TJ, but Lake Braddock..."

BTW - there is a more recent brochure with updated college acceptance similar to the one I linked to.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: CERTenly4444 ()
Date: July 08, 2011 08:39AM

I don't know what this means

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 08, 2011 08:41AM

Here's the updated link to the brochure: http://www.tjhsst.edu/curriculum/dss/docs/tjprofile_2011.pdf

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: what does it mean ()
Date: July 08, 2011 09:46AM

I find it interesting that the vast majority of students graduating from TJ are going to schools within Virginia (UVA, W&M, Tech). Yes, there are a few Princetons, Stanfords, etc. But it sure looks like the brass ring is very much the same as it is for students in the regular high schools---going to a state school. It shows (at least to me), that price and proximity are much bigger factors than anything else for most of our high school students (TJ is no different). We are more regional than we think and less of a national influence than we make ourselves out to be.

Most of the students at UVA, W&M, and Tech are NOT from TJ. Going to TJ does not mean you will come out of college and get a better job than someone who did not go to TJ. Those are the statistics that count.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 08, 2011 09:55AM

> ...Going to TJ does not mean you will come out of college and get a better job
> than someone who did not go to TJ. Those are the statistics that count.

Very true - I once asked an FCPS educator pretty much that question - has any study/data collection been done on TJ graduates AFTER college to see if they're significantly in better positions than "run of the mill high school" graduates, etc. The answer was "I don't think so; TJ is to make it easier to get into the "name" schools".

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: snowdenscold ()
Date: July 08, 2011 11:28AM

The Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> 6. TJ is not the end all be all. Stay at your
> home school and excel, and you have a better
> chance at admissions. Guess which FFX high school
> sent kids to MIT, Princeton, an Penn this school
> year. Not TJ, but Lake Braddock. As Casey
> Stengel said, you can look it up.


I don't buy the "you're at a disadvantage for admissions if you go to TJ" talk. As with any statistics, there are underlying causes and assumptions not always readily apparent in looking at them.

Saying "30 TJ kids applied to MIT and only 5 base school kids did means you have a better chance at the base school" is not the full story - the numbers are still small enough to where you're not running into quotas. Heck, even 125+ kids attend UVA from TJ, so who knows how many more applied and got in.

Finally, your stat above is meaningless because you simply sorted through until you found the three exact "top" schools which fit your point. It's like when people say "the first person to 1000 points, 850 rebounds, and 375 blocks." Well, when you're allowed the flexibility to move enough variables around, you can make anything happen. Your one little outlier does not prove Lake Braddock sends kids, on average, to "better" schools than TJ.

For all I know (and yes, I'd have to look it up) that could have been TJ sending 20 to MIT, 8 to Princeton, and 0 to Penn this year (but had 4 last year), where L.B. sent 1 to each. I just made those up, but it shows how misleading stats can be. As Mark Twain said, "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2011 11:32AM by snowdenscold.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 08, 2011 12:03PM

As noted a few posts up with the link to TJ's most recent brochure, TJ sent a boatload of students to MIT, Princeton, and Penn so it is not clear what The Truth was typing about.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: THe Truth ()
Date: July 08, 2011 04:09PM

The brochure indicates ACCEPTANCES, not MATRICULANTS. The small elite -- best of the best -- students at TJ account for the concentrated acceptances at the Ivies. Trust me, I don't need LINKS...I live and breathe this stuff every day. For example, the 25 best qualified (perfect SATs, Intel winner, National Merit, etc.) garner all the elite college acceptances. The next tier, 26-50, fight for admission to the top tier because these colleges don't want their campuses overpopulated with the same high school. Number 26 is overshadowed at TJ, but would have blazed at Westfield, Centreville, Langley, etc. Everyone is always surprised by the high admittances to the Virginia colleges from TJ. Point proven. Game over.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: The Truth ()
Date: July 08, 2011 04:19PM

150 TJ kids apply to MIT, 23 are accepted = 15% acceptance rate
4 Lake Braddock kids apply, 1 is accepted = 25% acceptance rate.
25% > 15%. You do the math.
Assuming the same student credentials, are your chances of admission better at TJ?
The point is TJ shakes out the genius from the near-genius.
50% of the students at TJ finish in the bottom half of their class...understand.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 08, 2011 04:26PM

Hmmm...I would assume the 1 Lake Braddock person had qualifications roughly equal to one of the 23 TJ people.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: The Truth ()
Date: July 08, 2011 04:33PM

>> Carelessly Debilitating << Relax, you are going to send your daughter over the edge if she [YOU] doesn't [don't] wangle her way into TJ. And wangle is exactly the word. Play hard, but play fair. You are convincing your daughter that she will receive a sub-par education elsewhere and ruin her chances forever at becoming the successful, well-paid, uncaring, and selfish {fill in blank of your choice}.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 08, 2011 04:35PM

Your posts are becoming more spittle enhanced the further along this thread gets.

I smell some other factor going on here.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: The Truth ()
Date: July 08, 2011 04:49PM

>> Hmmm...I would assume the 1 Lake Braddock person had qualifications roughly equal to one of the 23 TJ people. <<

Yes, and perhaps those qualities were not evident, the same or comparable to TJ-bound students five years prior at age 13, when said student applied to and was not rejected by TJ. Or maybe the LB student (and parent) realized that if the goal was to reach MIT, the odds were better because 25 is always greater than 15.

Life is not a race -- to finish first, win or lose.
Life is a journey -- to experience and relish

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: July 08, 2011 07:46PM

The Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, and perhaps those qualities were not evident,
> the same or comparable to TJ-bound students five
> years prior at age 13, when said student applied
> to and was not rejected by TJ.

Or those qualities were evident and Vern Williams is right about TJ's admission process...

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: snowdenscold ()
Date: July 09, 2011 12:45AM

The Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 150 TJ kids apply to MIT, 23 are accepted = 15%
> acceptance rate
> 4 Lake Braddock kids apply, 1 is accepted = 25%
> acceptance rate.
> 25% > 15%. You do the math.
> Assuming the same student credentials, are your
> chances of admission better at TJ?


There are too many confounding variables to say with certainty. We don't know what the 'student credential' distribution is over the application population of each.
As one example, maybe being aware of the school you attend helps self-select different applicant pools, and TJ's might be weighted heavier toward the bottom. That doesn't prove (or disprove) an individual student is better off at LB than TJ, because as we all know correlation does not always imply causation.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 09, 2011 08:31AM

> ...TJ actually gives examples of essentially the SAME rec written two different
> ways and says one is better than the other because it provides more color - crap,
> that's all I can say to that - it means the experienced rec writer "wins" to the
> unfortunate-not-to-have-an-experienced-rec-writer student's dismay...

Here's what Vern Williams of GT school fame actually said:

>>> "..."I usually write between 45 and 60 TJ recommendations and spend at
>>> least 75 minutes on each because I make them all totally unique..."

Though I don't actually believe those numbers completely the pure fact of the matter is how can ANY non-GT kid expect to compete with her teacher recs against THAT!? Furthermore, how can ANY rec from a run-of-the-mill UNKNOWN teacher compete against THIS:

>>> "By all accounts, he is one of the best math teachers in the country.
>>> The Mathematics Association of America has given him two national awards.
>>> He was appointed by the Bush administration to the National Mathematics
>>> Advisory Panel. For 25 years he has prepared middle-schoolers for the
>>> tough admissions standards at Thomas Jefferson High School for Science
>>> and Technology, the most selective high school in America..."

The recommendation evaluators are fully aware of who wrote the recs. If a student has no access to both this type of "teacher rec writer" as well as this type of "teacher rec", no matter HOW good the student actually is how can she compete?

There simply is no way she can.

Teacher recommendations count as a full 20% of the TJ admissions process - right off the bat students who ARE equally qualified up to that point lose out, possibly terminally lose out, to their peers who just had a better set of recommendation writers.

Poop.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: joining the discussion now ()
Date: July 09, 2011 12:44PM

And whose fault is it that a student isn't in the GT program?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 09, 2011 12:54PM

joining the discussion now Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And whose fault is it that a student isn't in the
> GT program?

You have totally missed the original point of the thread - even the point of the evolved thread.

The point is to have the TJ admission process be uniform across all schools so students who are NOT in a GT school have equal footing to those who are.

Though the aim was NOT to increase minority representation the pure fact is by making the process uniform across schools you DO increase minority representation probability as well.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: July 09, 2011 01:06PM

curiously refreshing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Poop.

Through the magic of cut and paste, you distorted what Vern Williams actually said -

"This is just one example of why I have lost all faith in the TJ admissions process," Williams said. "In fact, I'm pretty embarrassed that the process seems no more effective than flipping coins."

Last year, he said, Jefferson rejected one of only two eighth-graders in Virginia who qualified to take the USA Junior Math Olympiad test, six scary problems to be done in nine hours. At the same time, "students who had very little interest [or] motivation in math and science were admitted," he said. "Some admitted students had even struggled with math while in middle school."

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 09, 2011 01:40PM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Through the magic of cut and paste, you distorted
> what Vern Williams actually said -
>
> "This is just one example of why I have lost all
> faith in the TJ admissions process," Williams
> said. "In fact, I'm pretty embarrassed that the
> process seems no more effective than flipping
> coins."
>
> Last year, he said, Jefferson rejected one of only
> two eighth-graders in Virginia who qualified to
> take the USA Junior Math Olympiad test, six scary
> problems to be done in nine hours. At the same
> time, "students who had very little interest
> motivation in math and science were admitted," he
> said. "Some admitted students had even struggled
> with math while in middle school."

Not a distortion at all - I quoted the key part that this thread is all about - I am OPPOSED to what Vern Williams apparently wants otherwise. Apparently the fantastic student that missed out getting in didn't get in because test scores or grades were lousy (or essays or student application essay); we have a fairly strong clue, though, that the student's teacher recs were very good.

I =believe= in test scores - in fact, the whole premise of this thread is that every student under discussion here has done GREAT on the essays and test scores and GPA and student application and the ONLY difference between them is the out-of-their-hands teacher recommendations. What Vern Williams apparently wants is that a teacher rec can bypass everything else!

No - that's VERY wrong because it INSTANTLY puts the competition at a supreme disadvantage due to lack of quality TEACHERS on the competition's side.

I then went on to quote Vern Williams to show just how bad that disadvantage is for the, for example, non-GT student (this disadvantage applies to ANY student who doesn't have the dedicated-to-the-extreme teacher willing to expend REAL effort to try to help them get admitted, of course, not just non-GT students who UNDOUBTEDLY have less-motivated teachers writing their recs).

The TJ admission process remains flawed. It is flawed to the disadvantage to non-GT students more so than to the handful-per-decade superlative-but-otherwise-unadmitted students such as Vern Williams' example(s). I don't know what the solution is but a solution IS needed. I =really= don't like taking admission scoring out of the students' themselves hands unless some scheme can be devised to make that scoring uniform across all schools (like the silly suggestion up above of a multiple-choice rec form with no prose at all - something that equalizes the weight of recommendations from the most dedicated teacher with the least dedicated teacher).

BTW - I have no problem with a minimal set-aside of TJ freshman positions for outstanding-something students who, for whatever so-far-unspoken reasons, can't get into TJ the "normal" way. Based on the LACK of protests it reads to me like maybe only a couple per year - with NO guarantee that those couple per year would be applied - is sufficient.

But that way is NOT to give even MORE weight to teacher recommendations for the general application pool students.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: joining the discussion now ()
Date: July 09, 2011 02:42PM

I believe that the reason a GT school has a higher percentile admitted to TJHSST is because the students at GT schools do better academically and have more extracirricular activities than those that are at non-GT schools. I know someone who went to a non-GT middle school who went to a half-IB high school and got into TJHSST as a sophomore.

I'm quite sure that a student in a GT school gets a natural advantage due to the course workload at a GT school. However, other than that a similar student at a non-GT school generally has an equal chance into admission into TJHSST.

I think that the TJHSST admissions process should be based much more on test scores and accomplishments rather than teacher recommendations and essays. Some teachers (however very few) don't like certain students from day 1.

The parents who say "My child is bright but just doesn't do well on tests" needs something to back that up rather than just claiming that. Any parent can claim that about their child.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 09, 2011 04:16PM

joining the discussion now Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that the TJHSST admissions process should
> be based much more on test scores and
> accomplishments rather than teacher
> recommendations and essays...

I don't have a problem with the essays - just another form of test, IMHO - but agree with respect to test scores and teacher recs.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: joining the discussion now ()
Date: July 09, 2011 05:41PM

The only thing about the essays I don't like is its difficult to tell whether a student is a very good writer or just had someone else write the essay for him/her. The students that lose are the ones that honestly wrote the essay themselves but aren't very good writers.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 09, 2011 05:54PM

I read somewhere that "they know when the student didn't write it" - that's w.r.t. the Student Application essay. A rather big hole, I suspect, but one I can live with (not sure why they even have THAT essay since it IS a rather big hole). But the two essays on the Admission test itself can't be written by anyone other than the student unless the student/someone got wind of the actual questions ahead of time - that's a whole different problem, though.

I figure if my daughter can't get all the standard stuff good enough without cheating then she'll do just fine at her base high school, as does she - cheating is for losers.

But she's still going to try even though the odds are stacked against her w.r.t. the teacher recs - we'll be asking around her school to see if anyone has further clues on which teachers are good at writing recs - yes, that's totally ridiculous but appears to be the only way to at least START to level the playing field with these recs though it of COURSE has absolutely nothing to do with her - isn't that nuts!?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: joining the discussion now ()
Date: July 09, 2011 09:47PM

What grade is she in now?

If she's not in 8th grade you can still request for your daughter to be considered for selection into the FCPS' GT program next year.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: July 09, 2011 09:53PM

The range of raw scores on the components of the TJ admissions process (test scores, student grades, essay ratings, Student Information Sheet ratings, teacher recommendation ratings, etc.), and translation of those scores as they are "weighted" during the process, has much more impact than people realize.

When the range of raw scores as well as the weighting process is taken into account, the essays on the test plus the essays and short answers on the Student Information Sheet end up being the most important factors in the second round.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 10, 2011 07:48AM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When the range of raw scores as well as the
> weighting process is taken into account, the
> essays on the test plus the essays and short
> answers on the Student Information Sheet end up
> being the most important factors in the second
> round.

Yes, I can believe that and have no problem with that - let the students be judged by how well the student does.

Unfortunately, the teacher recs are a full 20% of the admissions score, even more so than GPA. In the previously-discussed scenario, teacher recs from GT teachers WILL be written "better" than recs from non-GT teachers simply because (1) the GT teachers do this a LOT thus are well-experienced in rec writing and (2), as the Vern Williams words show, the GT teachers are a LOT more inclined to take this task seriously and are dedicated to "their" students more than the non-GT teachers. What this means is students from non-GT schools are at a distinct disadvantage to their otherwise-identically-equal peers from GT schools.

Going back to the original post, I think it would be useful and perhaps revealing to have full disclosure of the various factors' scores for all applicants to TJ. That is, for every applicant (*) have a single multi-variable datapoint in the set showing the originating middle school and the scores for the tests, the essays, the student application and the teacher recs. Raw data would be fine since it is trivial to drill into it in any direction.

=-=-=-=-=-=-

(*) Unfortunately, there is a legal requirement to protect the identity of a student from being attached to a score; this kills the ability to have the less-represented schools be in the dataset overtly identified. As such, some other solution for these cases - such as identifying the "schools" as "Not revealed" until a sufficient number of applicants has been accumulated to meet the "hidden student identity" requirement would be necessary (one doc said 10+ students - I think 5 or so would be sufficient, personally, but I'm not an attorney).

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: psycho ()
Date: July 10, 2011 08:19AM

curiously refreshing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> APorIBMom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When the range of raw scores as well as the
> > weighting process is taken into account, the
> > essays on the test plus the essays and short
> > answers on the Student Information Sheet end up
> > being the most important factors in the second
> > round.
>
> Yes, I can believe that and have no problem with
> that - let the students be judged by how well the
> student does.
>
> Unfortunately, the teacher recs are a full 20% of
> the admissions score, even more so than GPA. In
> the previously-discussed scenario, teacher recs
> from GT teachers WILL be written "better" than
> recs from non-GT teachers simply because (1) the
> GT teachers do this a LOT thus are
> well-experienced in rec writing and (2), as the
> Vern Williams words show, the GT teachers are a
> LOT more inclined to take this task seriously and
> are dedicated to "their" students more than the
> non-GT teachers. What this means is students from
> non-GT schools are at a distinct disadvantage to
> their otherwise-identically-equal peers from GT
> schools.
>
> Going back to the original post, I think it would
> be useful and perhaps revealing to have full
> disclosure of the various factors' scores for all
> applicants to TJ. That is, for every applicant (*)
> have a single multi-variable datapoint in the set
> showing the originating middle school and the
> scores for the tests, the essays, the student
> application and the teacher recs. Raw data would
> be fine since it is trivial to drill into it in
> any direction.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> (*) Unfortunately, there is a legal requirement to
> protect the identity of a student from being
> attached to a score; this kills the ability to
> have the less-represented schools be in the
> dataset overtly identified. As such, some other
> solution for these cases - such as identifying the
> "schools" as "Not revealed" until a sufficient
> number of applicants has been accumulated to meet
> the "hidden student identity" requirement would be
> necessary (one doc said 10+ students - I think 5
> or so would be sufficient, personally, but I'm not
> an attorney).

I find this approach troubling as it seems to lead in the direction of implicit quotas - "there don't seem to be many kids from school X - so there must be some unfairness and so I'll just give a few of their kids a boost over the others" - that doesn't seem reasonable

It's absolutely reasonable to expect a much higher proportion of kids from AA/GT schools - you should expect that many TJ-capable kids will have been pre-clustered there by the AA process. This may be mitigated by the county's unfortunate habit of placing AA centers at schools with existing performance or ESOL problems - which leaves parents of AA students with a tricky choice and principals with an unenviable balancing act

You should also expect to see some effect of ethnicity in line with the overall performance of the ethnic groups which is correlated with the level of parental involvement in education, which is also likely to be correlated with eventual academic success.

The one I actually find worrying is that you may also have an effect based on distance - with families in the north west of the county making the tradeoff against the excessively long bus ride. I know of several families who have decided that the amount of time taken on the commute could be used more effectively to better net results.

I continue to believe that Fairfax needs a second TJ - it was a great shame that the opportunity wasn't taken to place this at South Lakes which was the obvious win-win for the redistricting there. The underlying issue is that Fairfax has a lot more TJ-capable kids than we have places - and we're selling those kids short by designing schools which have to deal simultaneously with academic high flyers and remedial ESOL

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 10, 2011 08:39AM

> I find this approach troubling as it seems to lead in the direction
> of implicit quotas - "there don't seem to be many kids from school X - so
> there must be some unfairness and so I'll just give a few of their kids
> a boost over the others" - that doesn't seem reasonable...

Good grief, I don't think anyone other than Vern Williams is suggesting something like that.

I would expect GT program students to get admitted to TJ much more so than non-GT students. And, in fact, that for sure is the case (as the stats way up in the thread show). I also would expect percent of applicants ultimately getting in to be greater from GT schools (is that a derivative of some type?...). Have no problems with that, either.

What I =do= have a problem with is a factor for admission being ITSELF weighted =a priori= toward a GT applicant. Please note this is NOT saying "GT students shouldn't be better"; I think we can all agree that the majority of GT students are indeed, in general, "better" than non-GT students in general (though not necessarily better than non-GT student applicants to TJ).

The single factor that is out of the students' hands is the "teacher rec factor" and that single factor counts a full 20% of the admission scoring AND that single factor for SURE is, in general, weighted toward a GT applicant over a non-GT applicant (because of all the previously discussed reasons).

THAT has to be changed.

No quotas - absolutely not.

Just pure STUDENT-only capability.

(not the capability of some teacher who writes recs)

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: July 10, 2011 10:31AM

curiously refreshing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> What I =do= have a problem with is a factor for
> admission being ITSELF weighted =a priori= toward
> a GT applicant.

Yes & No. The GT applicants come from schools that have a lot of practice on the teacher recs. OTOH, each individual GT teacher has a LOT more recs to write & not all of them are going to put in the time that Vern says he does.

> (though not necessarily better than non-GT
> student applicants to TJ).
>

It would be very unlikely that the non-GT applicants test on average as high as the average GT applicant though the non-GT applicants might have higher GPAs, teacher recs, etc. After all, the GT population was selected by test scores in the first place & test scores don't change all that much over time, the non-GT kids are self-selected, so come from a more random test distribution.

>
> The single factor that is out of the students'
> hands is the "teacher rec factor" and that single
> factor counts a full 20% of the admission scoring
> AND that single factor for SURE is, in general,
> weighted toward a GT applicant over a non-GT
> applicant (because of all the previously discussed
> reasons).
>

I don't agree that recs are necessarily biased towards GT, but I do agree that they are not a useful criteria - especially given what passes for "science" and "math" in FCPS MSes. It's pretty hard to believe that a teacher's recs based on coloring are particularly useful.

>
> No quotas - absolutely not.
>
> Just pure STUDENT-only capability.
>

Given that, the SIS is also a major issue... How many SISes are actually written by the kid? Who is available to review them? (SES of parents/reviews by teachers/or TJ Prep'ers obviously helps in ensuring that the SISes "make the grade.") Were the kids resumes groomed by their parents to TJ by summer camps, forcing them to "show up" for math counts or Science Olympiads or ... when the kids didn't care to be there...

And, of course, GPAs are also manipulated by parents since the real TJ Prep'er parents DO a lot of "applicant's" outside work...

>
> (not the capability of some teacher who writes
> recs)

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: think outside the boxes we have ()
Date: July 10, 2011 10:51AM

You can never make this thing 100% "fair". I think that all of the effort going into this TJ thing would be better used to make the "regular" high schools more challenging and to get rid of the bad effects of NCLB and SOL testing ("dumbing down" of classes and rote memorization). Students who "pass advance" the SOL's in elementary and middle school should probably be on a higher track that does not include SOL's in high school. Challenging those students more is going to pay off for our whole society in the future. This is about way more than just a few kids who go to TJ for one reason or another. People on this forum are worried about their own little junior and maybe they ought to be worried about the country and world their own little junior is going to live in.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: July 10, 2011 12:18PM

think outside the boxes we have Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can never make this thing 100% "fair". I
> think that all of the effort going into this TJ
> thing would be better used to make the "regular"
> high schools more challenging and to get rid of
> the bad effects of NCLB and SOL testing ("dumbing
> down" of classes and rote memorization). Students
> who "pass advance" the SOL's in elementary and
> middle school should probably be on a higher track
> that does not include SOL's in high school.

All of those kids are either at TJ or are taking mostly honors and AP classes at the local HSes. (I only say "mostly" because of the idiotic removal of honors classes for juniors/seniors leading qualified kids to drop to regular outside their "strengths" rather than take 6 AP classes. There is a SB meeting this month on the topic. Scream at them...)

I can't speak for other local HSes, but I will say Westfield does offer a pretty rigorous math/science curriculum with, in most cases, well to highly qualified teachers (MSes or PhDs in their disciplines). The top 20 or so kids (who could do as well at TJ as most of the TJ kids) take the all honors/AP/post-AP route and get an education that's probably in the top couple percent of HSes in the country. And, a few of those kids go "above and beyond" and get a lot of personal attention for research projects, etc.

That said, the honors classes need to be significantly richer than they are (they follow the standard curriculum with additions rather than are a separate curriculum.) This might be more easily accomplished if, as you suggest, SOL/NCLB testing could be dropped for honors.

And, if AP classes are supposed to be "college level" - what college courses in English/Social Studies at any college worthy of the name don't require research papers?

Note, part of the problem you will get into is access to the "best" teachers. If you have significantly different honors vs regular curricula, you are either asking the teachers to teach two completely separate lesson plans or you get teachers for the honors/ap classes and a separate set for the regular ones. There are saints who can and will do what's necessary to handle both or highly qualified saints who want to teach the regular kids, but what you are more liable to end up with is the highly qualified teachers dedicated to the top track with all that means for tension within the faculty and between the schools and the parents...

Also, there is only so much the HSes can do with the student/teacher ratios Fairfax parents are willing to fund through taxes... I know Westfield has been forced by student/teacher ratios to alternate years for AP Comp Sci due to the number of kids who sign up. And, can we really expect teachers with 150 kids to require AP English/Social Studies research papers or spend more 1-on-1 time required for extended science research? What would happen to tension within the faculty if, say, teachers of the top students only had 40 kids...

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: cold, stark reality ()
Date: July 10, 2011 05:00PM

The answer to all of this for the top tier kids is private school . . . if parents can afford it. I don't think anyone will argue with the fact that lower teacher to student ratios affect the quality of education. People with their kids in private schools certainly put their money on that fact. But, yes, the taxpayers won't fund that and that's why private schools exist. Lots of privates are getting plenty of kids into the top tier universities and colleges. Probably, in some cases, at much higher rates than even TJ does.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 10, 2011 05:49PM

> ...I can't speak for other local HSes, but I will say Westfield does
> offer a pretty rigorous math/science curriculum with, in most cases,
> well to highly qualified teachers (MSes or PhDs in their disciplines)...

That's why my family isn't TOO concerned about my daughter not getting into TJ; if she doesn't, she goes to Westfield.

However, since she has decided to TRY to get into TJ, we sincerely believe ALL factors should be uniformly addressable by ALL students, not just GT students with uber-dedicated teachers.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: add to that ()
Date: July 11, 2011 02:24PM

To improve this discussion, we should get a new FOIA request for more facts on the admission statistics. I have had two kids admitted to TJ and one rejected so I'm a bit too familiar with the process.
Regarding the teacher recs, a fewer posters here put down the truth. They really don't matter, unless they are bad, which just shouldn't happen. So they really don't matter. You get to pick the teachers. If you can't identify two teachers who will give you a top scoring rec, you should not go to TJ. Really, it is not that hard a thing to do. Look at the top 1000 applicants. I'll wager they all had top score in Teacher recs. They are graded on a scale from 1-5. You need a 5.
Regarding the Wishy-washy SIS, and "presumption of student authorship" that's a serious issue...it is very subjectively (and quickly) "scored". And it is most heavily weighted.
Regarding many TJ students being "maladjusted" well, that's pretty wishy washing, but yeah, lots of students in all schools have some issues. Al-in-all, the fact is that it is a pretty amazing peer group at TJ. Yeah, it makes a difference. It makes it easier for the teachers to teach.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: FOIA ()
Date: July 12, 2011 11:14AM

They already give out admission statistics and a FOIA Request would get nowhere because FOIA protects personal records (FCPS already gives out statistics based on race, school, etc.) However you can get the records on your student that the TJ Admissions Office has because FOIA makes an allowance if you request personal records about yourself.

Anyways, I'd be much more interested in Sophomore and Junior Admissions Statistics.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Thoroughly Amused ()
Date: July 12, 2011 12:17PM

curiously refreshing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's why my family isn't TOO concerned about my
> daughter not getting into TJ; if she doesn't, she
> goes to Westfield.
>
> However, since she has decided to TRY to get into
> TJ, we sincerely believe ALL factors should be
> uniformly addressable by ALL students, not just GT
> students with uber-dedicated teachers.

I hear the AP Overdosing class at Westfield is great. Many of the students conduct field research over the summer in Baltimore before applying to the county jail.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: July 12, 2011 01:03PM

Thoroughly Amused Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hear the AP Overdosing class at Westfield is
> great. Many of the students conduct field
> research over the summer in Baltimore before
> applying to the county jail.

Though yours was a useless noncontributing joke post in one of the very few serious threads on this message board (...), it does none-the-less bring up one of the positive points of TJHSST - all the students there tried very hard to get there and are pretty much guaranteed to be MUCH more dedicated to schooling than to drugs (at least, drugs they don't concoct themselves in chem lab). That dedication appeals to my daughter and IS one of the reasons she is intrigued by TJ.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: July 12, 2011 03:59PM

FOIA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They already give out admission statistics and a
> FOIA Request would get nowhere because FOIA
> protects personal records (FCPS already gives out
> statistics based on race, school, etc.)

TJ normally publishes aggregated admissions results. Aggregates don't provide the detail that is required for an outsider to have real insight into the admissions process.

There was a FOIA request about 5 years ago that resulted in disclosure of one year's complete set of anonymized - not aggregated - results by for each kid's GPA/Test score/race/gender/TJ admittance. The data was used by some researcher to in a statistical study of bias in TJ admissions. I saw the data set and have reason to believe that it was real.

Regarding this thread, I don't recall whether the data included the kid's middle school or complete scores including on essays/teacher recs/etc. If a similar dataset was provided that included these details, an outsider could perform a statistical study to determine how much the squishy factors actually matter in admissions and, in particular, whether the teacher recs actually make any real difference at all.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: joining the discussion now ()
Date: July 12, 2011 09:30PM

Anyone is free to send a FOIA request if they want... The FCPS Administrative Facility is at 8115 Gatehouse Rd, Falls Church, VA 22042.

Make sure that you get at least signature confirmation if you don't get registered mail in case its needed in court or something. However, you might have to pay for the records as provisions of the FOIA specify.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Dedicated Mother ()
Date: August 12, 2011 09:29PM

Does anyone have percentages of admitted 8th graders into TJ (total number of admitted students vs total number of students enrolled in 8th grade)? And, what are these percentages per school, including public, private, charter, and/or home-schooled 8th graders. Thanks!

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: A kid from TJ ()
Date: August 24, 2011 07:14AM

To be completely honest, you people are making TJ out to be some amazing school that will allow your children to ascend to higher levels of knowledge, and thus ensure they succeed in the future...no. Middle school decides whether you'd succeed in life or not. If you are one of the high achievers(we're talking top ten) in middle school, you probably will get into a good university, since it implies you will do well in high school. All TJ does is make it easier to "succeed" in a sense. But if your child isn't determined enough to seek out those resources on their own, in middle school (that means no parent 'suggestions') without TJ influence, they wouldn't get into TJ anyway. Please parents. It's not your decision. it's your child's. Tell them to think for a second. Are they the type of person who would succeed in life without TJ, simply because they would forge their own path, determinedly striving for knowledge? And most importantly. Do they WANT to go to TJ? A bright future lies ahead...but only for those brave enough to step into the light.

PS: In case you were wondering, yes I am a rising TJ sophomore, yes this is 100% my own work, and most TJ kids can churn this sort of thing out in ten minutes flat, there are no "Korean immigrants that can barely speak English" like someone mentioned before. TJ does NOT help you write essays, your kid has to be the type of person who can do this by themselves. You'll need that skill in many classes.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: luxor ()
Date: August 24, 2011 08:28PM

A kid from TJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> PS: In case you were wondering, yes I am a rising
> TJ sophomore, yes this is 100% my own work, and
> most TJ kids can churn this sort of thing out in
> ten minutes flat

No way I would have guessed you're only a sophomore... or that it took you no more than 10 minutes to write that. Very impressive writing skills you TJ students have. But how's your ability to pick up on sarcasm?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: add to that ()
Date: August 25, 2011 04:43PM

A kid from TJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be completely honest, you people are making TJ
> out to be some amazing school that will allow your
> children to ascend to higher levels of knowledge,
> and thus ensure they succeed in the future...no.
> Middle school decides whether you'd succeed in
> life or not. If you are one of the high
> achievers(we're talking top ten) in middle school,
> you probably will get into a good university,
> since it implies you will do well in high school.
> All TJ does is make it easier to "succeed" in a
> sense. But if your child isn't determined enough
> to seek out those resources on their own, in
> middle school (that means no parent 'suggestions')
> without TJ influence, they wouldn't get into TJ
> anyway. Please parents. It's not your decision.
> it's your child's. Tell them to think for a
> second. Are they the type of person who would
> succeed in life without TJ, simply because they
> would forge their own path, determinedly striving
> for knowledge? And most importantly. Do they WANT
> to go to TJ? A bright future lies ahead...but only
> for those brave enough to step into the light.


Wow. Is that the sort of writing skill that got you winning score on your Entrance Exam essays? Only 10 minutes?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: derp ()
Date: August 30, 2011 09:09PM

Okay for those of you deciding to apply to TJ or just want to know how different TJ really is from other high schools, here I go:

First of all, everyone at the school values their education and really does try to excel whether it be in academics, athletics, music, etc. Even those that seem like "slackers" academically make up for it in another field, producing an exceptional all-around student body. Another thing is that we all are very big on school pride. Our homecoming week is full of spirit, celebration, and fun. Also, despite the TJ stereotype (nerdy, antisocial, etc) you will find incredible and intellectual people that have a wide variety of interests. Finally, you have to remember that we are still teenagers and while homework does cut into our weeknights, people do go out and have fun on the weekends.

The opportunities at TJ are unmatched. All the teachers are very dedicated and many of them possess phDs or similar. Thats not to say that there are some bad teachers, because face it every institution has those. Although the majority are very passionate at what they teach and know that their students want to be challenged. This brings me to my next point: the classes. The establishment, though appearing run-down for such a high-caliber school, still has more technological equipment than your average high school. Each senior conducts research in one of the many available labs ranging from biotechnology, chemical analysis, computer systems, electronics, and more. To be accepted into one of these fields of study, many students take pre-requisites that are not available anywhere else. There are tons: astronomy, DNA, neurobiology, organic chemistry, artificial intelligence, alternative energy systems, etc. And for those that want electives in areas besides science/tech: philosophy, law, religious studies, anthropology, chorus, psychology, film study, and many more.

Finally the atmosphere at TJ is great. As I said many of the students are motivated and this shows through the 100% AP participation (every student must complete Calculus as well as a few required technology before graduation). Furthermore, all the core classes are at the honors level and rather than focusing on having students pass the SOLs, they teach more in depth about the subject.

Outside of the classroom, there are lots of extracurricular opportunities. There are over a hundred clubs to choose from during 8th period (time for clubs/study halls/tutoring, etc). Many students participate in academic ones such as Model UN, debate, and science bowls, but other clubs ranging from community service to cultural/political ones have members that are just as dedicated. Besides 8th period, all TJ students have an option of having a mentorship with a local company or hospital in the area during senior year to satisfy their senior research credit.

Well, those were the basics. Hope I addressed most of the questions or concerns most of you had. :)

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Yucky24 ()
Date: August 30, 2011 10:45PM

Yeah, I have some stats for you.

Pretty much only White and East Asian kids get in because admissions are based on merit and not on "affirmative action" and "diversity" (aka nigs, spics and muslimes are fucking retarded so they need lots of help to compete against ethnic groups that are genetically superior to them).

Blacks are crying "Racism! Racism!" constantly because none of their mongoloid kids can get in.

No, not because they're being discriminated against, but the school is supposedly racist JUST BECAUSE NIGS CAN'T PASS THE REQUIREMENTS TO GET IN.

And of course since most Whites are deathly afraid of being called racists, they tried to help more nigger kids get in.

Yet even after they made it easier for nigs to get in, black attendance is still hilariously low.

So yeah, hopefully your kid has a high IQ and is a hard worker or he's not getting in.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: A kid from TJ ()
Date: September 03, 2011 04:13PM

luxor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No way I would have guessed you're only a
> sophomore... or that it took you no more than 10
> minutes to write that. Very impressive writing
> skills you TJ students have. But how's your
> ability to pick up on sarcasm?

I challenge you to write a cohesive and logical post that clearly states you main point, and not spamming up the forums with pointless "attack threads."
And as for the ability to pick up on sarcasm, it is indeed low. I have a mild case of autism, that hampers my social skills, and as such my ability to judge others' words are hampered. Would you like to make something of it?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: A Student of TJ ()
Date: September 07, 2011 06:14PM

This current year the class of 2015 had around 77 students from Carson and 72 from Longfellow. Kilmer and Rocky Run had above 50 students as well. These four are the "big-dump" schools. From these schools many students get admitted not because of the schools but the competition level is higher in these schools. They also offer more extra-curricular activities that lead to an advantage for students in these schools. This is also because parents step-up and create the programs. Some schools do not have Lego League. If a student is serious about TJHSST they should participate and "**enjoy**" participating in Science or Math related activities. A few examples are:

Lego League
Science Olympiad
Math Counts
AMC 8
TSA
TARC

There are more, but other schools do not offer them and the ones at Carson were et up by a parent of another student. It truly is not hard to get in to TJ. YOu do NOT need to study day and night. The test consists of BASIC math and probability. If you or your child took Alg1 in seventh grade they will easily pass the first cut. The real problem is having the writing ability and club activities to show you interest in Math/Science. I am a Freshman and just took the test and went through the process. In all of it the worst part is when your parents stress you out because they think it is super HARD when truly it isn't

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Yawning ()
Date: September 07, 2011 08:36PM

derp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay for those of you deciding to apply to TJ or
> just want to know how different TJ really is from
> other high schools, here I go:
>
> First of all, everyone at the school values their
> education and really does try to excel whether it
> be in academics, athletics, music, etc. Even those
> that seem like "slackers" academically make up for
> it in another field, producing an exceptional
> all-around student body. Another thing is that we
> all are very big on school pride. Our homecoming
> week is full of spirit, celebration, and fun.
> Also, despite the TJ stereotype (nerdy,
> antisocial, etc) you will find incredible and
> intellectual people that have a wide variety of
> interests. Finally, you have to remember that we
> are still teenagers and while homework does cut
> into our weeknights, people do go out and have fun
> on the weekends.
>
> The opportunities at TJ are unmatched. All the
> teachers are very dedicated and many of them
> possess phDs or similar. Thats not to say that
> there are some bad teachers, because face it every
> institution has those. Although the majority are
> very passionate at what they teach and know that
> their students want to be challenged. This brings
> me to my next point: the classes. The
> establishment, though appearing run-down for such
> a high-caliber school, still has more
> technological equipment than your average high
> school. Each senior conducts research in one of
> the many available labs ranging from
> biotechnology, chemical analysis, computer
> systems, electronics, and more. To be accepted
> into one of these fields of study, many students
> take pre-requisites that are not available
> anywhere else. There are tons: astronomy, DNA,
> neurobiology, organic chemistry, artificial
> intelligence, alternative energy systems, etc. And
> for those that want electives in areas besides
> science/tech: philosophy, law, religious studies,
> anthropology, chorus, psychology, film study, and
> many more.
>
> Finally the atmosphere at TJ is great. As I said
> many of the students are motivated and this shows
> through the 100% AP participation (every student
> must complete Calculus as well as a few required
> technology before graduation). Furthermore, all
> the core classes are at the honors level and
> rather than focusing on having students pass the
> SOLs, they teach more in depth about the subject.
>
>
> Outside of the classroom, there are lots of
> extracurricular opportunities. There are over a
> hundred clubs to choose from during 8th period
> (time for clubs/study halls/tutoring, etc). Many
> students participate in academic ones such as
> Model UN, debate, and science bowls, but other
> clubs ranging from community service to
> cultural/political ones have members that are just
> as dedicated. Besides 8th period, all TJ students
> have an option of having a mentorship with a local
> company or hospital in the area during senior year
> to satisfy their senior research credit.
>
> Well, those were the basics. Hope I addressed most
> of the questions or concerns most of you had. :)

Thanks so much. We're not that interested in you, but your little essay will serve you well when you start giving college tours to other nerds.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: A TJ Student ()
Date: September 08, 2011 11:25PM

Pertaining to the original topic of this forum statistics have no value if trying to decide which MS to go to. If one year Longfellow has a year of non Math/Science students their percentage will go down. TJ doesn't separate admissions based on schools. TJHSST is a governor's school and that means anyone of this region (there is a map somewhere) that includes other counties have an EQUAL chance of enrolling. It truly depends on the student.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Student of TJHSST ()
Date: September 08, 2011 11:33PM

Any rumors you may hear about quotas and other nonsense is made up by frustrated students and parents. I am a TJ alumni whose little brother is in TJ and I see his Facebook page and how some of the Students not accepted make a fuss because they weren't accepted. Tj does have more Asian(*Includes Indians*) students compared to other schools but that isn't because the admissions office is biased towards the Asian Community. In many places you see Asian students excelling beyond other races. I am NOT saying that the Caucasian people are not as smart but due to the diversity of this country there happen to be more Asian students who choose to excel in school or academic activities. This does NOT mean that the other races are less competent it means that the reason their are more Asians in TJ is because more Asians try to get in.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Tj Kid ()
Date: September 08, 2011 11:36PM

I also went to TJ and was accepted with the TJ ENTRANCE EXAM SCORE OF 99/100 49 ON ENGLISH AND 50 ON MATHEMATICS. A friend was not accepted with A ENTRANCE EXAM SCORE OF 100/100. HE, HOWEVER, HAD AN UNATTRACTIVE SIS WHICH LEAD TO HIS DOWNFALL. The next year he got in through the Sophomore admissions.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: September 09, 2011 08:50AM

A TJ Student Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pertaining to the original topic of this forum
> statistics have no value if trying to decide which
> MS to go to.

Nah, untrue - THOROUGH stats show some reasons behind acceptance by some students over others - already discussed in this thread are the possibilities of better-written recs by teachers, for example. Those recs come from the teachers with strong experience in writing those recs - that is, the GT schools etc - putting at a disadvantege (w.r.t. recs) those students who have to rely on teachers with little experience in writing them.

There is also a significant GPA bias toward Honors students over nonHonors w.r.t. Math and Science. I know for a fact that Honors placement can be denied by those in the school who make those placements if the parents don't insist even though prior year teachers have recommended Honors placement - and there goes the GPA. So the stats could show how this Honors GPA boost helped in admission for the relatively borderline cases.

And so on.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Strunk ()
Date: September 09, 2011 01:18PM

A TJ Student Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pertaining to the original topic of this forum
> statistics have no value if trying to decide which
> MS to go to. If one year Longfellow has a year of
> non Math/Science students their percentage will go
> down. TJ doesn't separate admissions based on
> schools. TJHSST is a governor's school and that
> means anyone of this region (there is a map
> somewhere) that includes other counties have an
> EQUAL chance of enrolling. It truly depends on the
> student.

You might want to think about dropping one of your math classes and taking an additional English course, preferably a remedial one.

As to the substance of your post, kids applying to TJ have an advantage if they've attended the traditional TJ feeders like Carson, Longfellow, Kilmer or Rocky Run and been around other kids since they were in training pants whose parents also primed them to take the TJ exam.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: johnnn ()
Date: September 11, 2011 03:19PM

i had a son graduate from TJ 6 yrs ago.Its not as if TJ is going to open doors later in life folks..you make your own way..Parents in nova are delusional and need to get off the type a treadmill...your child needs a goal and should want to learn

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Parent of 3 ()
Date: September 21, 2011 05:14PM

derp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay for those of you deciding to apply to TJ or
> just want to know how different TJ really is from
> other high schools, here I go:
>
> First of all, everyone at the school values their
> education and really does try to excel whether it
> be in academics, athletics, music, etc. Even those
> that seem like "slackers" academically make up for
> it in another field, producing an exceptional
> all-around student body. Another thing is that we
> all are very big on school pride. Our homecoming
> week is full of spirit, celebration, and fun.
> Also, despite the TJ stereotype (nerdy,
> antisocial, etc) you will find incredible and
> intellectual people that have a wide variety of
> interests. Finally, you have to remember that we
> are still teenagers and while homework does cut
> into our weeknights, people do go out and have fun
> on the weekends.
>
> The opportunities at TJ are unmatched. All the
> teachers are very dedicated and many of them
> possess phDs or similar. Thats not to say that
> there are some bad teachers, because face it every
> institution has those. Although the majority are
> very passionate at what they teach and know that
> their students want to be challenged. This brings
> me to my next point: the classes. The
> establishment, though appearing run-down for such
> a high-caliber school, still has more
> technological equipment than your average high
> school. Each senior conducts research in one of
> the many available labs ranging from
> biotechnology, chemical analysis, computer
> systems, electronics, and more. To be accepted
> into one of these fields of study, many students
> take pre-requisites that are not available
> anywhere else. There are tons: astronomy, DNA,
> neurobiology, organic chemistry, artificial
> intelligence, alternative energy systems, etc. And
> for those that want electives in areas besides
> science/tech: philosophy, law, religious studies,
> anthropology, chorus, psychology, film study, and
> many more.
>
> Finally the atmosphere at TJ is great. As I said
> many of the students are motivated and this shows
> through the 100% AP participation (every student
> must complete Calculus as well as a few required
> technology before graduation). Furthermore, all
> the core classes are at the honors level and
> rather than focusing on having students pass the
> SOLs, they teach more in depth about the subject.
>
>
> Outside of the classroom, there are lots of
> extracurricular opportunities. There are over a
> hundred clubs to choose from during 8th period
> (time for clubs/study halls/tutoring, etc). Many
> students participate in academic ones such as
> Model UN, debate, and science bowls, but other
> clubs ranging from community service to
> cultural/political ones have members that are just
> as dedicated. Besides 8th period, all TJ students
> have an option of having a mentorship with a local
> company or hospital in the area during senior year
> to satisfy their senior research credit.
>
> Well, those were the basics. Hope I addressed most
> of the questions or concerns most of you had. :)


Thank you. I enjoyed reading this, it is well written and sounds very sincere. I wish all high school students could feel like this (and write like this) about their school.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: September 27, 2011 05:33PM

Well...just found out the other day from a TJ Admissions representative that TJ apparently has a (half day?) course for =teachers= to teach them how to write better recommendations for their students.

And TJ pays for a teacher substitute.

Needless-to-say, this came as a total surprise.

So...push your middle school principals to allow teachers to attend this course if your middle school is NOT a GT center.

Maybe the playing field CAN be leveled a smidgen, huh?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: level ()
Date: October 03, 2011 01:21PM

Does this really level the playing field?
What if "your" teacher has not been able to attend?
Does attending make their Recs more "successful?
Do they learn "key phrases" for "thumbs down"?
It's in no way obvious that this makes the process any more fair.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: October 03, 2011 04:37PM

level Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does this really level the playing field?
> What if "your" teacher has not been able to
> attend?
> Does attending make their Recs more "successful?
> Do they learn "key phrases" for "thumbs down"?
> It's in no way obvious that this makes the process
> any more fair.

A smidgen is a smidgen - can't hurt!

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: The Truth Bee-atch ()
Date: October 05, 2011 03:15PM

Mr. Curiously Refreshing....have your kid make superlative grades, test off the charts, engage in multiple ECs, excel at a musical talent, and develop a personality and he/she/it will waltz into TJ. Until then, STOP WHINING, FINGER-POINTING, and RATIONALIZING why little Amanda/Brewster was REJECTED.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: October 05, 2011 03:26PM

The Truth Bee-atch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mr. Curiously Refreshing....have your kid make
> superlative grades

Check - Straight-A Honors each quarter and full-year 7th grade - straight-A Honors 1st quarter so far 8th.

> ...test off the charts...

Check - 600 SOL in 7th grade math, advanced pass for others. She will do what she will do on the TJ test itself.

> engage in multiple ECs...

Got me on that one - what's an EC?

> ...excel at a musical talent,...

Check - Advanced Orchestra.

> ...and develop a personality...

Check - (though can't define it online adequately) - gonna have to trust me on that one.

> and he/she/it will waltz into TJ...

Not true - she also has to have excellent teacher recommendations which are (almost) completely out of her hands; this IS the reason for that very first post up there at the top asking if there are (public) statistics on just what makes a winning application - and apparently there are NOT such stats publicly available.

> ...Until then, STOP WHINING, FINGER-POINTING, and RATIONALIZING why little
> Amanda/Brewster was REJECTED.

This is a strange comment - I suggest (strongly) you reread the posts from this ID again.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: snowdenscold ()
Date: October 05, 2011 04:33PM

curiously refreshing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> > engage in multiple ECs...
>
> Got me on that one - what's an EC?
>

The context is applications/admissions - isn't it obvious that it would be Extra-curriculars?

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Dr. Jack Dale ()
Date: October 05, 2011 04:35PM

EC = extracurricular activity.

Little Kim/Mae/Byong will either make it or not. Don't hang yourself if she/he doesn't. Imagine what Tiger parents are doing psychologically to the little Cub.

The teacher recommendation means very little. It can only hurt if it's negative. If it's negative, then there's a reason why. Too many academically-excellent students in FCPS suffer from character issues (cheating, lying, bullying, gossiping,conniving, manipulating, etc.) that only teachers are familiar with while parents are either oblivious or negligent.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: October 05, 2011 05:42PM

>> I have to wonder how many of the "other" schools'
>> teacher even read the "How to write a rec" manual
>> that is made available to them:
>>
>> http://www.tjhsst.edu/abouttj/admissions/docs/teachrec-guidelines-2011.pdf

TJ may have removed this from their public website. I was going to quote it to show that this:

> ...It can only hurt if it's negative...

is incorrect.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: logicaldog ()
Date: October 06, 2011 10:05AM

I agree with the point that the GT Centers are buldging and the path to that is interesting. What ends up happening is that the kids who are actually Gifted (with adjacent pathologies) not just smart do not get their needs met. You can see the end of the bell curve in these kids and they do have some pathologies that are associated with real giftedness (social is one for sure), and that should be why they need (actually NEED) special education, not just a place for more uninteresting work, which is what GT centers tend to be now. It is very unusual for a kid to be globally gifted in real life, there are probably less than .009% of the population of Fairfax County kids who are actually gifted yet I think it is like 15% in the GT Centers.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: TJHSST Student_2015 ()
Date: October 21, 2011 07:41PM

The admissions process really isn't that bad, if you are prepared. As for it being fair, the people who get in, usually deserve to get in, but it is impossible to create a perfect process.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Student_TJ_2015 ()
Date: October 30, 2011 10:17PM

This is just a comment to say that if you think that you or your child goes to a big-dump school don't assume they will get in. Last year some racist Indian parents at RCMS thought just because there children was an indian and he was one of the 70 smartest they will get in but they weren't even put on the waiting list. This isn't only for Indians but in general thinking with this mindset is not a good idea. Also I made this list of what me and my friends did to get in it has the inout of approx. 156 of 480 in the class of 2015 and all of these people were accepted at the second cut no wait list. This includes Loudoun students who think its harder for them because they live in Loudoun county. As far as any racist remarks towards this school they aren't true. They are really created by Parents of students who were not accepted or students who were not accepted.

To put it simply I got a 99/100 on my TJHSST entrance exam 50 on Math and 49 on Reading.

List

Math-
The Math portion of the test requires basic arithmetic skills and some common sense. Also remember to read the question carefully it actually helps. The Math test is really easy if your student is in Geometry its a no-brainer if they are in Algebra they need to read a little about Geometric angles.

Reading:
A little harder but overall very easy. Diagrams are useful on the Logic portion. Re-read the paragraphs after you unscramble them, do they make any sense? The critical reading is harder than the SOL but not as hard as the SAT section.

The first time I took the SAT I got a 1890. With a perfect Reading plus Math score. Don't take me as an example. The TJ is easy but be wary of careless errors.

ESSAYS: (at the test)
THese are easy but they require practice. Don't choose the obvious answer choose the one that is easier to support but don't ever pick the cheating side that is a NO-NO. One is generally ethical the other is more of real world type question. READ ARTICLES OFTEN they help you. READ SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN OR CNET OR POPULAR SCIENCE. These articles help you get examples for the test.

MOST IMPORTANTLY DO NOT BELIEVE TJ PREPS. THEY ARE A WASTE OF MONEY. THEY GIVE HARD QUESTIONS ON THIER PRACTICE TESTS AND SAY YOUR CHILD IS NOT READY.

The actual LIST: CAPS is best and most people used them
EC's
MATHCOUNTS
LEGO LEAGUE
Odyssey of the Mind
SPORTS (only if you are nationally ranked like best in your region otherwise NO)
SCIENCE OLYMPIAD
MATH OLYMPIAD
TSA (not useful bc the competitions are too easy and they recognize that)
SPECIAL CAMPS
PERSONAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS
I made a professional Website
A friend made a game on the APP store
Another friend has a small company
One person put they solved a RUBIKS CUBE

IT really However boils down to:
You talking about teamwork and leadership
all the cheesy stuff you normally never talk about like hardwork, perserverance, and Teamwork/Leadership

The teacher recc's are in your control do good in a class be a star if you get a project work your hardest and do one that your teacher will never forget. Make sure you impress a MAth/Science teacher too.

Good Luck and Remember this only has what less than half of the people did if you did not follow anything that I did or one of the people did then its OK you still have a chance

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Student_TJ_2015 ()
Date: October 30, 2011 10:21PM

I also forgot MUN is HUGE at TJ they always win. The captain has been to IVY LEAGUE MUN. So its good to put on there so is Debate.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: December 03, 2011 08:27AM

Well...thousands of kids are starting the tests in about 3 minutes - good luck to them all.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: Kim Chee ()
Date: December 03, 2011 08:44AM

Wow. Really tough to start a test when it's already 10:30 PM in Seoul.

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Re: Any thorough statistics on TJHSST admissions?
Posted by: curiously refreshing ()
Date: December 03, 2011 01:17PM

It's all over for them - thousands of kids/parents all over the place going to restaurants. Statistically, half will be disappointed in a month or so.

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