I just learned there's a Rally for Student Rights before the School Board meeting on Thursday, June 9, at 6:30 pm at Luther Jackson Middle School before the board meeting starts at 7 pm. The organizers say student and parent rights are the issue because the board is voting on changes to the code of conduct, known as the "Student Responsibilities and Rights" policy -- where Rights are an afterthought.

They say to wear RED for valor and strength and bring "appropriate" signs, and attend the board meeting itself.

Here are changes they want to see happen:

1. Whatever happens, this is only a START; keep the reform review going.

2. Notify parents/guardians BEFORE kids are questioned, give them Miranda warnings, do not let them sign statements without parent/guardian permission. (Most parents don't know FCPS considers parents/students do not have these rights. There are dozens of stories of students questioned for hours and coerced into signing statements.) Superintendent Jack Dale's SR&R proposed changes state only that an attempt to notify parents will be made after questioning.

3. Put a moratorium on involuntary lateral school transfers because research/data show they are deleterious and none shows they are beneficial. (State law does not allow these transfers.) Work with national experts to develop criteria for the very limited cases where they may be appropriate. Jack Dale SR&R changes do not address this issue at all.

4. Record all hearings and make them available for free right away to parents who request them. (Hearing officer statements and notes can be used against students in courts.) Jack Dale SR&R proposed changes state hearings can be recorded but parents can only "review" them, not have copies.

5. Support children on suspension by providing ongoing educational (and wraparound) services throughout; meantime, reduce out-of-school suspensions to as close to zero as possible. (Progressive - and safe - school systems are doing this.) There is now money in the budget for a start ($500K), thanks to SB Tina Hone, but virtually nothing in the SR&R on this issue.

6. Reduce disproportional discipline against students with disabilities and disadvantaged students, including minorities. (ca. 44% of suspensions are minority or disabled or disadvantaged students.) This not addressed.

Here are the email addresses for all of the School Board members:
Kathy Smith - Chair - Kathy.L.Smith@fcps.edu
Brad Center - Vice Chair - Brad.Center@fcps.edu
Elizabeth Bradsher - Springfield - elizabeth.bradsher@fcps.edu
Sandra Evans - Mason - sandy.evans@fcps.edu
Stuart Gibson - Hunter Mill - stuart.gibson@fcps.edu
Martina Hone - Member at large - Martina.Hone@fcps.edu
Ilryong Moon - Member at large - ilryong.moon@fcps.edu
James Raney - Member at large - james.raney@fcps.edu
Patricia Reed - Providence - patty.reed@fcps.edu
Daniel Storck - Mt Vernon - daniel.storck@fcps.edu
Jane Strauss - Dranesville - jane.strauss@fcps.edu
Judith Wilson - Braddock - Tessie.Wilson@fcps.edu

TruthBeTold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kathy Smith - Chair - Kathy.L.Smith@fcps.edu
> Brad Center - Vice Chair - Brad.Center@fcps.edu
> Elizabeth Bradsher - Springfield -
> elizabeth.bradsher@fcps.edu
> Sandra Evans - Mason - sandy.evans@fcps.edu
> Stuart Gibson - Hunter Mill -
> stuart.gibson@fcps.edu
> Martina Hone - Member at large -
> Martina.Hone@fcps.edu
> Ilryong Moon - Member at large -
> ilryong.moon@fcps.edu
> James Raney - Member at large -
> james.raney@fcps.edu
> Patricia Reed - Providence - patty.reed@fcps.edu
> Daniel Storck - Mt Vernon -
> daniel.storck@fcps.edu
> Jane Strauss - Dranesville -
> jane.strauss@fcps.edu
> Judith Wilson - Braddock - Tessie.Wilson@fcps.edu

Do you know how much these jerks get paid?

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TruthBeTold Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Kathy Smith - Chair - Kathy.L.Smith@fcps.edu
> > Brad Center - Vice Chair - Brad.Center@fcps.edu
> > Elizabeth Bradsher - Springfield -
> > elizabeth.bradsher@fcps.edu
> > Sandra Evans - Mason - sandy.evans@fcps.edu
> > Stuart Gibson - Hunter Mill -
> > stuart.gibson@fcps.edu
> > Martina Hone - Member at large -
> > Martina.Hone@fcps.edu
> > Ilryong Moon - Member at large -
> > ilryong.moon@fcps.edu
> > James Raney - Member at large -
> > james.raney@fcps.edu
> > Patricia Reed - Providence -
> patty.reed@fcps.edu
> > Daniel Storck - Mt Vernon -
> > daniel.storck@fcps.edu
> > Jane Strauss - Dranesville -
> > jane.strauss@fcps.edu
> > Judith Wilson - Braddock -
> Tessie.Wilson@fcps.edu
>
> Do you know how much these jerks get paid?<

The princessly sum of $25,000 for what is in reality a full time job. If that sum were divided by the numbers of hours the conscientious ones actually put in, it would not equal minimum wage.

Which explains, in part, the tendency of most of them to take whatever Central Office staff tells them as gospel.

I have had enough of FCPS system and doubt they even care about kids.

Jack Dale is a dick and the SB is his ass.

The proposed revisions to the student handbook are a good first step. However, FCPS central seems to be circling the wagon on yet another issue, to avoid discussing additional reforms.

The only way that FCPS seems to pay attention to the public (in other words to care about input, rather than soliciting input and disregarding it) is when hundreds of people attend School Board meetings. That's why students and parents should attend this School Board meeting, or email the School Board members to ask for open and public deliberations about the remaining issues that have been identified.

Everyone wants FCPS schools to be safe. Students learn more when they and their teachers feel safe. But right now, FCPS has not demonstrated that all of its rules are needed to keep the schools safe.

For example, how would it hurt safety to provide all parents with a transcript or DVD, when the student is brought before the hearings office? Would it really hurt school safety to let more students remain in their neighborhood schools, if all they did was spray paint a smiley face on school property?

We'll be there with a bunch of parents demanding stricter discipline in FCPS schools!

We can't believe the board allows these kids to get away with some of the activities and behaviors that go on in FCPS schools. This needs to stop!

SBStricter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We'll be there with a bunch of parents demanding
> stricter discipline in FCPS schools!
>
> We can't believe the board allows these kids to
> get away with some of the activities and behaviors
> that go on in FCPS schools. This needs to stop!


"HEIL!"

Minimum wage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TruthBeTold Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Kathy Smith - Chair - Kathy.L.Smith@fcps.edu
> > > Brad Center - Vice Chair -
> Brad.Center@fcps.edu
> > > Elizabeth Bradsher - Springfield -
> > > elizabeth.bradsher@fcps.edu
> > > Sandra Evans - Mason - sandy.evans@fcps.edu
> > > Stuart Gibson - Hunter Mill -
> > > stuart.gibson@fcps.edu
> > > Martina Hone - Member at large -
> > > Martina.Hone@fcps.edu
> > > Ilryong Moon - Member at large -
> > > ilryong.moon@fcps.edu
> > > James Raney - Member at large -
> > > james.raney@fcps.edu
> > > Patricia Reed - Providence -
> > patty.reed@fcps.edu
> > > Daniel Storck - Mt Vernon -
> > > daniel.storck@fcps.edu
> > > Jane Strauss - Dranesville -
> > > jane.strauss@fcps.edu
> > > Judith Wilson - Braddock -
> > Tessie.Wilson@fcps.edu
> >
> > Do you know how much these jerks get paid?<
>
> The princessly sum of $25,000 for what is in
> reality a full time job. If that sum were divided
> by the numbers of hours the conscientious ones
> actually put in, it would not equal minimum wage.
>
> Which explains, in part, the tendency of most of
> them to take whatever Central Office staff tells
> them as gospel.


You can't possibly believe the stupidity that you post, do you?

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

DONNA MARTIN GRADUATES!!!!

It's in the news:

http://oakton.patch.com/articles/reform-group-to-rally-before-school-board-meeting

I get more real news here.

Go ahead and wear your gay red shirts! Pinko Commie Bastards!

I work in FCPS school system and deal with discipline on a daily basis. In my particular school, I would imagine our suspension rates for minorities are even higher than 44%. The reason for that, is......wait for it......almost there.....MINORITIES ARE THE CAUSE OF MORE PROBLEMS YOU STUPID FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like it or not, that is the truth in my particular school....maybe not in McLean or Langley, but definitely in mine. It never ceases to amaze me of the ignorant people in a County that boast of the best school system.

One thing I will agree with. I have worked with the FCPS Hearing Office on a regular basis and they are the most arrogant, useless, most ignorant people I have ever worked with. They act as judge jury and executioner and have no idea what they are doing. Plus all told, there is probably close to $1,000,000 tied up in total salaries alone. They are worthless. Anything that can be done to get rid of them I am for, but don't wanna to hear anymore crying about the lopsided discipline slanted toward the poor minority......that is bullshit and I have the documentation to prove it.

Do any of these idiots ever stop and wonder why the school system is in the state it's currently in?

TruthBeTold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2. Notify parents/guardians BEFORE kids are
> questioned, give them Miranda warnings, do not let
> them sign statements without parent/guardian
> permission. (Most parents don't know FCPS
> considers parents/students do not have these
> rights. There are dozens of stories of students
> questioned for hours and coerced into signing
> statements.) Superintendent Jack Dale's SR&R
> proposed changes state only that an attempt to
> notify parents will be made after questioning.

Dozens of stories out of thousands of students. So what happens if the parents tell their kids to not sign anything? Is the school supposed to just say, "well, he won't sign the statement admitting he brought crack into school so I guess we have to let him go."

More than likely, they'll just start handing any case that needs one of these signed statements over to the police and let it be a criminal case instead of an administrative case. Parents will have to pay a lawyer to defend their shitbag kid so he doesn't get nailed with fines or detention in juvenile hall. That's totally better than getting suspended or transferred to another school!

> 3. Put a moratorium on involuntary lateral school
> transfers because research/data show they are
> deleterious and none shows they are beneficial.
> (State law does not allow these transfers.) Work
> with national experts to develop criteria for the
> very limited cases where they may be appropriate.
> Jack Dale SR&R changes do not address this issue
> at all.

Yes, let's end involuntary lateral school transfers and do what we should be doing in the first place: expelling the little bastards.

> 4. Record all hearings and make them available for
> free right away to parents who request them.
> (Hearing officer statements and notes can be used
> against students in courts.) Jack Dale SR&R
> proposed changes state hearings can be recorded
> but parents can only "review" them, not have
> copies.

Don't bitch when your taxes go up to fund the recording equipment and archival of all the recorded cases, not to mention the staff increase that will be needed to provide these hearings "right away."

Yes, let's give copies to parents so they can alter them and turn every hearing into a "he said, she said" situation.

> 5. Support children on suspension by providing
> ongoing educational (and wraparound) services
> throughout; meantime, reduce out-of-school
> suspensions to as close to zero as possible.
> (Progressive - and safe - school systems are doing
> this.) There is now money in the budget for a
> start ($500K), thanks to SB Tina Hone, but
> virtually nothing in the SR&R on this issue.

Let me get this straight. Billy attacks and beats on Johnny, so your recommended punishments for Billy are:

A. Let him continue to go to school so the out-of-school suspension rate stays low so everyone can get a warm fuzzy.

B. Send him home for 10 days with homework or a tutor so he doesn't fall behind on his school work and learns that suspension is really just a 10-day vacation.

Brilliant.

> 6. Reduce disproportional discipline against
> students with disabilities and disadvantaged
> students, including minorities. (ca. 44% of
> suspensions are minority or disabled or
> disadvantaged students.) This not addressed.

Fuck that shit. This is the one that pisses me off the most.

So if a rich white studend and a poor black student commit the same infraction, the poor black student gets punished less because he's a disadvantaged minority? That's saying one of two things:

1. Racism is completely acceptable as long as it's against white people.

2. Minorities are more prone to committing crime and breaking the rules. They are simply incapable of behaving or functioning at the same level as white people. So, we should punish them less because they can't help the fact they are genetically predisposed towards subversive behavior.

Either way, anyone advocating this little rule change is incredibly and hopelessly ignorant.

> Here are the email addresses for all of the School
> Board members:
> Kathy Smith - Chair - Kathy.L.Smith@fcps.edu
> Brad Center - Vice Chair - Brad.Center@fcps.edu
> Elizabeth Bradsher - Springfield -
> elizabeth.bradsher@fcps.edu
> Sandra Evans - Mason - sandy.evans@fcps.edu
> Stuart Gibson - Hunter Mill -
> stuart.gibson@fcps.edu
> Martina Hone - Member at large -
> Martina.Hone@fcps.edu
> Ilryong Moon - Member at large -
> ilryong.moon@fcps.edu
> James Raney - Member at large -
> james.raney@fcps.edu
> Patricia Reed - Providence - patty.reed@fcps.edu
> Daniel Storck - Mt Vernon -
> daniel.storck@fcps.edu
> Jane Strauss - Dranesville -
> jane.strauss@fcps.edu
> Judith Wilson - Braddock - Tessie.Wilson@fcps.edu

I should email these people and inform them that these proposed changes should be voted down because they are being advocated by mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2011 02:26PM by MrMephisto.

I say we vote for Mrmephisto for school board....

Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: June 08, 2011 02:20PM

> Fuck that shit. This is the one that pisses me off the most.
> So if a rich white studend [sic] and a poor black student commit the same infraction, the poor black student gets punished less because he's a disadvantaged minority? That's saying one of two things:

No, you're jumping to conclusions, the implication is that a minority student is more likely to be punished for the same offense.

>1. Racism is completely acceptable as long as it's against white people.

Racism is not acceptable.

>2. Minorities are more prone to committing crime and breaking the rules. They >are simply incapable of behaving or functioning at the same level as white >people. So, we should punish them less because they can't help the fact they are genetically predisposed towards subversive behavior.
Either way, anyone advocating this little rule change is incredibly and hopelessly ignorant.

That's racist.

Minimum wage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TruthBeTold Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Kathy Smith - Chair - Kathy.L.Smith@fcps.edu
> > > Brad Center - Vice Chair -
> Brad.Center@fcps.edu
> > > Elizabeth Bradsher - Springfield -
> > > elizabeth.bradsher@fcps.edu
> > > Sandra Evans - Mason - sandy.evans@fcps.edu
> > > Stuart Gibson - Hunter Mill -
> > > stuart.gibson@fcps.edu
> > > Martina Hone - Member at large -
> > > Martina.Hone@fcps.edu
> > > Ilryong Moon - Member at large -
> > > ilryong.moon@fcps.edu
> > > James Raney - Member at large -
> > > james.raney@fcps.edu
> > > Patricia Reed - Providence -
> > patty.reed@fcps.edu
> > > Daniel Storck - Mt Vernon -
> > > daniel.storck@fcps.edu
> > > Jane Strauss - Dranesville -
> > > jane.strauss@fcps.edu
> > > Judith Wilson - Braddock -
> > Tessie.Wilson@fcps.edu
> >
> > Do you know how much these jerks get paid?<
>
> The princessly sum of $25,000 for what is in
> reality a full time job. If that sum were divided
> by the numbers of hours the conscientious ones
> actually put in, it would not equal minimum wage.
>
> Which explains, in part, the tendency of most of
> them to take whatever Central Office staff tells
> them as gospel.


I've always been kind of perplexed as to how they even get people to be on the school board. The pay doesn't seem worth it.

"I've always been kind of perplexed as to how they even get people to be on the school board. The pay doesn't seem worth it."

You might assume that its an honor to serve on the school board and contribute to the community–

Or you could assume that they are politicians in search of political power-

curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, you're jumping to conclusions, the implication
> is that a minority student is more likely to be
> punished for the same offense.

So you believe FCPS's disciplinary process is racist and they'll let a white student slide while punishing a minority student?

Can anybody produce any credible report from a reputable source that shows where a minority student has been punished for something that a white student was given a pass on?

Considering some of the biggest media stinks about FCPS's disciplinary policies have been about white students (Acne Girl, Kid Who Killed Himself, etc), I find it hard to believe there's a widespread conspiracy to cover-up a racist agenda. Even making this suggestion is implying that all members of the school board and all members of the public school administration are secretly KKK members.

> Racism is not acceptable.

Then the people behind this "Rally for Student Rights" shouldn't be endorsing a change in policy that's based on racism.

> That's racist.

And it's not racist to, for example, give a five-day suspension to a black student when a white student would receive a ten-day suspension, simply because the black student is black?

What's the point of changing the policy? So people can look at a set of skewed statistics and feel better about themselves?

Demanding that one group of students be given special treatment over another group of students based on skin color is the polar opposite of de-segregation. What's next? Poll taxes on white students if they want to vote in student council elections?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

See, MrMephisto, you don't need to worry about black students being punished less, or white students being punished more . . . this is not an affront to whiteness or white people in general. And it is not an example of reverse discrimination- the idea that whites will lose if minorities gain is a false dichotomy, especially in this situation.

MM trolls all the FU sites, re-stringing discussions to twist them into warped accusations, so ignore him.

But he is not alone among racists in believing that minority and disabled kids "must" be committing all these crimes way beyond what others commit if the educational justice system punishes them at such a disproportionate rate compared with their numbers.

There are plenty of adults who worship the school system and the Chamber of Commerce that supports it, and would die before admitting they may have purchased a house in a school district with serious flaws. They would maim anyone who claimed their pet child could possibly ever drink alcohol or take a toke or otherwise do stupid kid things and defy their Godly parents. No child of THEIRS would be among the 3/4 of FCPS Seniors who have engaged in that behavior, according to the Fairfax Youth Survey. Oh no. OR, if they DID, they would be too SMART to get CAUGHT. And if they were caught, some parents would probably be thrilled to abrogate their parental responsibility to school administrators and be happy their taxes are being used to turn principals into wardens and teachers into guards to catch and punish their kids.

I challenge parents to get honest answers from kids about what adult they would trust at school if they themselves needed help with a serious behavior problem like alcohol or pregnancy or drugs and couldn't or wouldn't go to a parent. And if the parent thinks their kid should go to parents first, not to adults at school, that would really prove the point - who is to be trusted at school? By kids? Who are the very crux of all this to begin with?

This is the future of our school systems if parents and students don't stand up for themselves:

http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2011/06/08/33broad_ep.h30.html?tkn=VZXFVcxO70QSMSI%2F%2FP2EYDT3bndZTg1xTBRj&cmp=ENL-EU-NEWS1

TruthBeTold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MM trolls all the FU sites

Well, here's where you start to lose credibility. I disagree with you and am able to better articulate my opinion, so you have no other recourse than to call me a "troll."

> re-stringing discussions to twist them into warped accusations,
> so ignore him.

I'm just going on what you wrote, baby. Your credibility is in a tailspin...

> But he is not alone among racists

... and here's where it slams into the ground at terminal velocity.

You're saying that minority (i.e. non-white) and "disadvantaged" students need to be held to a different set of disciplinary standards than non-minority (i.e. white) students.

I say that holding a group of people to a different standard based on their skin color is inherently racist, yet you have the balls to call me racist. Here's a question that will make your head hurt: If 44% of suspensions were white students, would you be advocating that they be be punished less than "minority" students so the numbers were less disproportionate?

It's ignorant pricks like you that perpetuate the concept of racism by declaring that there is a difference between races and that people need to be treated a certain way based on their race.

> I challenge parents to get honest answers from
> kids about what adult they would trust at school
> if they themselves needed help with a serious
> behavior problem like alcohol or pregnancy or
> drugs and couldn't or wouldn't go to a parent. And
> if the parent thinks their kid should go to
> parents first, not to adults at school, that would
> really prove the point - who is to be trusted at
> school? By kids? Who are the very crux of all this
> to begin with?

I think this part accurately captures the misguided idiocy of these so-called "reformists." You think kids should trust school administrators and teachers over their own parents? That kids who go to their parents with an alcohol/pregnancy problem instead of their guidance counselor prove that the school system is flawed?

What you're saying here is that you want to give the school all the responsibility of parenthood and none of the authority. Jesus Christ.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're saying that minority (i.e. non-white) and
> "disadvantaged" students need to be held to a
> different set of disciplinary standards than
> non-minority (i.e. white) students.

You incorrectly interpret the OP's point 6 as arguing for reverse racism in discipline.

That's not the argument, and reframing it that way is indeed a "warped accusation."

The actual argument is that the disproportionate punishment of disadvantaged and minority students in FCPS needs to be rectified.

However, no one on the OP's side of the table argues that to achieve this FCPS should hold "a group of people to a different standard based on their skin color."


> Can anybody produce any credible report from a reputable source that shows where
> a minority student has been punished for something that a white student was given
> a pass on?

The reform argument is that "Suspensions at majority minority/poor schools are alarmingly higher than at majority white/Asian/advantaged schools," specifically, 14% of students in minority/poor schools account for 44% of suspensions/reassignments. (See point 4 here: http://www.fairfaxzerotolerancereform.org/missionandgoals.html)

Apparently you can look at those numbers and not blink. You have complete faith in the fairness of FCPS administrators, the same administrators who have reversed not a single one of the 5,025 disciplinary cases appealed to the hearings office in the past six years (http://www.fairfaxzerotolerancereform.org/blog.php?s=fcps-discipline-website-updated-to-show-69430-srr-violations-zero-possibility-for-innocence).

Others lack your credulity. They look at the numbers and see in them strong circumstantial evidence of institutional bias that needs to be addressed -- not by treating students at majority white/Asian/advantaged schools worse, or by easing the standards for students at minority/poor schools, but by treating all students - rich and poor, black and white, etc - equally, across the board.

That's because minority student are more likely to do stupid shit in school that needs to disciplined. It's called poor parenting, don't blame the school board.

I don't want to get too deep into this conversation, but I am fairly recent graduate of FCPS and I would like to add my two cents.

For the record, I fall under the "minority" category. From my experience, there have been more minority students causing trouble and requiring disciplinary action than most non-minority students. I have witnessed on countless occasions, especially on the middle school and high school level, student behaviors and actions, or lack of, that make me question why these students are even attending school. I've seen many times, where minority students are more interested in being gangster-wannabes, punks, and bums than actually fufilling their purpose of being a student.

Are there cliques and self-defined segregated groups in high school? Absolutely. Jocks will hang out with fellow jocks, jock wannabes, cheer leaders, etc.

If there is any question as to whether or not minorities are indeed being "targeted" by our school system, I would say such statement is false. I've been in the FCPS system, I've witnessed first hand the exhausting efforts school officials have implemented to make the schools a safer and more effective learning environment, and I have seen the minorities who want to put up wannabe gang signs, who show more interest in memorizing the latest Lil' Wayne song than their English vocabulary words, and those who are more interested in creating drama and altercations than coming to actually get a education.

I would like to end by stating that not all minorities are a issue. To do so, would be to generalize a large population of students. However, certain members of various minority groups do cause trouble and should be disciplined as such. This is not a matter of color, but a matter of principle and rightful disclipinary action. Without proper action, all of us suffer -- the kids who want to actually learn, and the kids who just want to bum around and 'get a diploma'.

Newton, I doubt you are who you say you are. There is word that FCPS Communications Superintendent Barbara Hunter trolls these kinds of FU sites and has people claim to be who they are not and post things like what you did, apologists for the corruption in the system. This is known because some of those shills have admitted it.

If you are who you say you are, you should be ashamed. The numbers in this county speak for themselves. Two schools with large minority populations have drastically different suspension rates -- and dramatically different approaches to discipline.

And the major issue here is not minorities -- it is students with disabilities. That is the population seriously affected.

I've heard rumors this week that there will be a police presence there (uniformed and undercover) at the School Board meeting tonight. Supposedly some of the rally rhetoric has been a little over the line with threats, etc.

One of the school board members kid has a rap sheet that makes a career criminal look like a saint!!

TruthBeTold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And the major issue here is not minorities -- it
> is students with disabilities. That is the
> population seriously affected.

"Students with disabilities" has been defined down to the point where it's next to meaningless, thanks to parents who look for excuses for their kids' shitty behavior rather than practicing proper parenting. Kid fucks off in class? He must have ADHD, get him an IEP dammit!

guess who?? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of the school board members kid has a rap
> sheet that makes a career criminal look like a
> saint!!

who?

T-bone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> guess who?? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One of the school board members kid has a rap
> > sheet that makes a career criminal look like a
> > saint!!
>
> who?

Its called the arrest ticket search at the top of the page. -

Newton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't want to get too deep into this
> conversation, but I am fairly recent graduate of
> FCPS and I would like to add my two cents.
>
> For the record, I fall under the "minority"
> category. From my experience, there have been more
> minority students causing trouble and requiring
> disciplinary action than most non-minority
> students. I have witnessed on countless occasions,
> especially on the middle school and high school
> level, student behaviors and actions, or lack of,
> that make me question why these students are even
> attending school. I've seen many times, where
> minority students are more interested in being
> gangster-wannabes, punks, and bums than actually
> fufilling their purpose of being a student.

I fully support a lot of the new practices such as alerting parent more often and stricter policies.

This gang shit in schools will not be tolerated!

Cameras in the classrooms and in hallways will certainly provide parents with a great way to monitor their kids behaviors live on the web.

guess who?? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> T-bone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > guess who?? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > One of the school board members kid has a rap
> > > sheet that makes a career criminal look like
> a
> > > saint!!
> >
> > who?
>
> Its called the arrest ticket search at the top of
> the page. -

works better with a name dawg.

You incorrectly interpret the OP's point 6 as arguing for reverse racism in discipline.

That's not the argument, and reframing it that way is indeed a "warped accusation."

The actual argument is that the disproportionate punishment of disadvantaged and minority students in FCPS needs to be rectified.

However, no one on the OP's side of the table argues that to achieve this FCPS should hold "a group of people to a different standard based on their skin color."

+1

TruthBeTold -- I'm apologetic that you have any doubts of the legitimacy of the fact that I am indeed a recent graduate of the FCPS system but I have no reasons to lie about it. I am extremely grateful and will always be grateful to FCPS for all that it has given and provided for me. I moved to Fairfax County right before I started middle school and completed my middle school and high school years in FCPS.

You are more than welcome to even talk to me in person and I can show you my recent high school diploma if you would like proof, though quite frankly, you are entitled to nothing as I am only providing my personal experiences on this issue. I think there is one thing you have to understand -- not all FCPS are equal. I attended Oakton High School -- we, the students, did not equate our quality of environment and resources as that of, for example, South Lakes High School. As a matter of fact, most of the students thought Fairfax High School and Falls Church High School, which are only a few miles away, as "ghetto" and mainly a school for minorities.

I am not ashamed of anything, matter of factly. As I said, I am a minority. I have been targeted in my years in FCPS by other minority groups. I had friends who skipped class all the time, "worked the system" to excuse themselves literally all aspects of normal school life, and I'm not going to lie -- I joined in their occasional rebellions. Instead of cowardly attackings of the personal and actual opinions of those who are experiencing and living in the "system", I highly recommend that YOU try interviewing school officials and employees who have to deal with the facts on a daily basis. As a matter of fact, I would even challenge you to go to any FCPS and ask to be granted a "day pass" and walk around the school from 7:20AM till 2:05PM. You are more than welcome to even "hang out" after school and see the behaviors of some minority groups. I had and still have mostly minority friends -- the ones that have moved onto college have shaped up or are trying to shape up. As a matter of fact, this is perfect -- I challenge you to visit the Annandale campus of NVCC where I am at currently. Just walk around the Godwin building and see how many "recently out-of-high school" minorities just loiter around like bums, acting gangster, and use the second level building as a "hang out".

As I said, I can't comment on all of FCPS. But Oakton High School had it's share of misfit minorities and from what I witnessed, they were respectable in the way they handled all students -- minorities, non-minorities, and those with disabilities.

It's pretty simple. Have the minority stop the gang shit and they not be punished as much.

T-bone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> guess who?? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > T-bone Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > guess who?? Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >

> > > -----
> > > > One of the school board members kid has a
> rap
> > > > sheet that makes a career criminal look
> like
> > a
> > > > saint!!
> > >
> > > who?
> >
> > Its called the arrest ticket search at the top
> of
> > the page. -
>
> works better with a name dawg.


Works better if you put forth some effort and figured it out yourself. Here is a hint---- try searching the last half of the list. /et my name? Its called guess who

Is anyone watching this bullshit? Did the fascist SB members not hear the speakers exclude the violent one percent??? My three students have never been in any kind of trouble, but I simply can not support this fascism. Brad Center speaks as though he wasn't even present for the speakers. And where's Bradsher, at the bar?

Tnia Hone PLEASE run again!

guess who?? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> T-bone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > guess who?? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > T-bone Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > guess who?? Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
>
> > > > -----
> > > > > One of the school board members kid has a
> > rap
> > > > > sheet that makes a career criminal look
> > like
> > > a
> > > > > saint!!
> > > >
> > > > who?
> > >
> > > Its called the arrest ticket search at the
> top
> > of
> > > the page. -
> >
> > works better with a name dawg.
>
>
> Works better if you put forth some effort and
> figured it out yourself. Here is a hint---- try
> searching the last half of the list. /et my name?
> Its called guess who

Ah, Mr. Storck....a bit dated though, back to 2008.

Strass son. Can't remember his name but he got in a whole bunch of trouble a few years back

Well-Known Gesture Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You incorrectly interpret the OP's point 6 as
> arguing for reverse racism in discipline.
>
> That's not the argument, and reframing it that way
> is indeed a "warped accusation."
>
> The actual argument is that the disproportionate
> punishment of disadvantaged and minority students
> in FCPS needs to be rectified.

Again, there's only two possible reasons for the "disproportionate punishment of disadvantaged and minority students":

1. Disadvantaged and minority students are causing more disciplinary infractions than "advantaged" and non-minority students.

2. FCPS has implemented a secret policy to target disadvantaged and minority students for punishment, and has been involved in a widespread cover-up to hide this from parents and students for years.

Which is the simplest answer?

> However, no one on the OP's side of the table
> argues that to achieve this FCPS should hold "a
> group of people to a different standard based on
> their skin color."

Of course, because openly saying that would generate bad publicity. It's much easier to just say that minorities are being treated unfairly and call anyone who disagrees a racist.

> The reform argument is that "Suspensions at
> majority minority/poor schools are alarmingly
> higher than at majority white/Asian/advantaged
> schools," specifically, 14% of students in
> minority/poor schools account for 44% of
> suspensions/reassignments. (See point 4 here:
> http://www.fairfaxzerotolerancereform.org/missiona
> ndgoals.html)
>
> Apparently you can look at those numbers and not
> blink. You have complete faith in the fairness of
> FCPS administrators, the same administrators who
> have reversed not a single one of the 5,025
> disciplinary cases appealed to the hearings office
> in the past six years
> (http://www.fairfaxzerotolerancereform.org/blog.ph
> p?s=fcps-discipline-website-updated-to-show-69430-
> srr-violations-zero-possibility-for-innocence).

Because these Zero Tolerance Reform nutjobs are completely unbiased and impartial, right?

I took a moment to browse their document library and came across the "2010 FCPS HS Suspension Rates" document. This is the worst piece of compiled information I've ever seen.

Overall, as pulled right from the document:

FCPS	# Stu.	White	Hisp	Asian	Black	Other	F/RL	LEP	SAT	Susp.	Susp/100 students
Overall	175,112	45%	18%	19%	10%	6%	22%	12%	1664	3,159	1.80

F/RL =  “Free & Reduced Lunch,” an index of low income families in the school
LEP    =  “Limited English Proficiency”, an index of immigrants in the school
SAT   =  “Scholastic Aptitude Test”, an index of educational achievement

45% of suspended students were white, 53% of suspended students were all other "minorities" combined. I doubt the accuracy of these numbers since 45 + 53 only equals 98% and not 100%. I'm also having a hard time figuring out which orifice you're pulling this "44%" number from. It would have been much more helpful to list the actual number of students per racial demographic suspended instead of just a percentage, but it would be much harder to skew the results then, wouldn't it?

In all thirteen "Majority White" schools, the White suspension percentage is greater than the "minority" suspension rate combined. Of course, when you add all twelve of the "Non-White Majority" to the "Majority White" schools and do your averages that way, it's very easy to skew the results towards the preconceived racist notion.

Where this document really jumps off the Logic Bridge into the River of Insanity is, it gives a number of 175,112 students overall, but the numbers of students listed per school only adds up to 53,399 total.

WHO CARES?! RACISM!

> Others lack your credulity. They look at the
> numbers and see in them strong circumstantial
> evidence of institutional bias that needs to be
> addressed...

Because they are stupid.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2011 09:45PM by MrMephisto.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, there's only two possible reasons for the
> "disproportionate punishment of disadvantaged and
> minority students":
>
> 1. Disadvantaged and minority students are causing
> more disciplinary infractions than "advantaged"
> and non-minority students.
>
> 2. FCPS has implemented a secret policy to target
> disadvantaged and minority students for
> punishment, and has been involved in a widespread
> cover-up to hide this from parents and students
> for years.
>
> Which is the simplest answer?

Once again, you reframe the argument tendentiously, this time by proposing a false dichotomy, ie, a logical fallacy ("there's only two possible reasons").

There is no need for a so-called "secret policy."

All that's required is discrimination against poor, minority, and/or disabled students.

Discrimination in Virginia???

No way! Could never happen.

Riiiiiight.


> > However, no one on the OP's side of the table
> > argues that to achieve this FCPS should hold "a
> > group of people to a different standard based on
> > their skin color."
>
> Of course, because openly saying that would
> generate bad publicity. It's much easier to just
> say that minorities are being treated unfairly and
> call anyone who disagrees a racist.

The critics of FCPS have not argued that any solution requires some kind of "affirmative action" in school discipline (ie, holding "a group of people to a different standard based on their skin color").

However, affirmative action has been approved by the Supreme Court, and is widely practiced by the federal government.

If FCPS critics believed that some form of affirmative action was the solution, there is no societal taboo against suggesting that solution.

But they haven't because that's not their position.

Stop making stuff up.


> Because these Zero Tolerance Reform nutjobs are
> completely unbiased and impartial, right?

Who on either side of this argument is "completely unbiased and impartial"?

The administrators at FCPS, protecting their turf?

Really?

The same FCPS administrators who during a six-year period handled over 5000 appeals of adverse disciplinary action, not a single one of which was found to be mistaken?

Do you suppose that "perfect" record is indicative of infallibility on the part of teachers and administrators who initially brought the charges, as well as the higher-level administrators tasked with evaluating those decisions?

Does that perfect no-reversal record smack of unbiased and impartial judgment to you?

Any appeals process that concludes NO MISTAKES were made at the lower level, that over a six-year stretch not even ONE kid out of 5000+ was innocent, is obviously a kangaroo court, and a complete farce.


> I took a moment to browse their document library and came across the
> "2010 FCPS HS Suspension Rates" document.... I'm also having a hard time
> figuring out which orifice you're pulling this "44%" number from.

Since this table does not break out the suspension rate for any specific category of student, and does not include disabled as a category, it's clearly not the basis for the claim that 14% of students in minority/poor schools receive 44% of the suspensions/transfers.

Moreover, I didn't say this particular table is the basis for that claim, and nor does anyone on the website, or the table itself.

Thus in attacking this table for failing to provide a basis for that claim you're attacking a strawman.


> 45% of suspended students were white, 53% of suspended students were all
> other "minorities" combined.

There is no way you can determine that from the table, which aggregates the total number of suspensions, rather than breaking them out into separate categories showing the # of suspensions among whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc. (The percentages given for white, Hispanic, etc, reflect the number of those students within the total student population, not the percentage of "white suspensions," "Hispanics suspensions," etc.)


> In all thirteen "Majority White" schools, the White suspension percentage
> is greater than the "minority" suspension rate combined.

First, you can't determine the "White suspension percentage" for any of the schools on the table. As noted above, the suspensions for each school are aggregated in a single number, not broken out into separate categories such as white, Hispanic, Asian, etc.

Second, of the 12 "Non-White" schools, the susp/100 for all but one of them is higher than 12 of the 13 "Majority White" schools.

Thanks for answering none of my questions.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Pretty sure you are what makes FCPS horrible and would bet anything that you are the worlds worst parent, probably intergenerational, ever find yourself saying this: "well I didn't have good parents, and look at me?" or "I didn't have a good education, and I turned out OK." NOT. Seek HELP NOW before you screw up more people. I would also guess you have little more than a HS diploma, if that.

comment above meant for the idiot, SBSTRICTer

guess who?? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> T-bone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > guess who?? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > T-bone Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > guess who?? Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
>
> > > > -----
> > > > > One of the school board members kid has a
> > rap
> > > > > sheet that makes a career criminal look
> > like
> > > a
> > > > > saint!!
> > > >
> > > > who?
> > >
> > > Its called the arrest ticket search at the
> top
> > of
> > > the page. -
> >
> > works better with a name dawg.
>
>
> Works better if you put forth some effort and
> figured it out yourself. Here is a hint---- try
> searching the last half of the list. /et my name?
> Its called guess who

I have to side with T-Bone here. Have some balls and post it. No one wants to take the time to look up and verify your accusation. Either contribute or hit the road (head first).

This girl and I got in trouble for the same thing ("destruction of property") at school, at our hearing i found out that the school suspended her for 3 days and gave her a day of in school suspension. I didn't get any punishment from the school lol. I think it's because she's black.

where is

- Bring back corporal punishment, since you can't discipline your kids at home, perhaps the school should start back up again
- Miranda rights for school admin investigations? HAHAHA you have to be kidding
- Fine parents who do not take proper steps to keep their kids in line...show me a "bad student" and I'll show you bad parenting...