it was sunday bout 12:30 A.M.
it was cold.
it was raining.
i had a couple of knives clipped to my belt.
and since it was raining and cold, i had a jacket on.
fuking cops get me for concealed weapons.
at least they were on my belt, not in my damn pockets.
how fucked up is that?

ouch man that sucks. definitely get a lawyer. who was the cop? were you driving?

I don't think there is any permit available for carrying concealed knives. The Virginia concealed handgun permit doesn't cover it either. How did they catch you if everything was covered up?

Yikes. Did they charge you with the class 1 misdemeanor or the felony (because you had more than one)?

Definitely get a lawyer. Don't take a plea unless the charge is reduced.
If it doesn't go your way in general district court, appeal!

You don't need a super expensive hot-shot lawyer, just someone who knows their way around the system so you don't get walked all over in court. I have a cheap lawyer if you need him.

I know there are at least two lawyers registered on this board, if either of you would like to help him out feel free to post.

i wasnt driving. and it was rite outside my house. the cops had come to say that there was a disturbance in my neighborhood. and they asked me for id when i went outside to see which condo building i lived in. i just flipped my jacket back to reach into my pocket, and they saw the knives clipped to my belt.
they still charged me with a class 1 misdemeanor even though i had more than one.

and i dont want a lawyer. i cant afford even a cheap one, and the court appointed ones will only try to make me plead guilty to reduce the sentence.

im thinking of representing myself. what does anyone else think? is it a good idea?

in Fairfax you CAN represent yourself (as anywhere), but since fairfax juris rules dictate only a bar-certified lawyer can negotiate with the prosecutor (not so in PW), you better have some real evidence and a real defense ready. The jury does not get to consider anything but the facts as presented into evidence by the prosecutor and the defense... and you'd be crazy not to go for a jury trial.

My advice: CONTACT A LAWYER, in fairfax you can call the courts and they can set you up with a "consultation visit" with a lawyer, who can give you advice for a half hour, without representation and without a binding agreement for representation. I think the best you can hope for is probable cause grounds for dismissal, and if the judge doesn't dismiss and lets that baby go to trial, you are finished.

My conclusion: you fucked up and Horan and Co. have you by the balls. Get a lawyer.

those who represent themselves have a fool for a client, those who do so in Fairfax County will get their client's ass kicked.

well, thanks for all the advice.
but i still think i'll represent myself.
i'll let yl know how it turns out if ur still interested in like 2 months from now.

nah seriously, talk to a lawyer. you can't get a court appointed one unless you have like no household income whatsoever. even the court appointed ones are still on your side, even though they work for the state. they're paid and promoted based on how many cases they win just like any other lawyer. look in the "articles" section up top and read "surviving the legal system." i've tried to defend myself in many cases where i thought i could do it but it didn't work out. judges in general district court won't pay any attention to you if you don't have a lawyer. if you really want to try to get off the charge by yourself DON'T PLEAD GUILTY! DON'T TAKE A PLEA! if things go really sour you can appeal the case and come back with a lawyer. even if you get taken through the trap door to jail from the court room you can call a number on the wall and appeal your case and get out in a couple hours. good luck.

I can second that. I tried to defend myself and I got walked all over by the officer and the judge. I thought logic and common sense would prevail, but I forgot that I was in traffic court.

The really sad part was that I could have appealed and hired a lawyer, but that would have cost ~$1000 more than just paying the fine (plus the "court costs" for pleading 'no contest' and taking 2 minutes of the courts time trying to explain what happened). My insurance wasn't affected (somehow) and I still have my license..

It's a messed up system that we have.

Yeah, the judicial system is pretty screwed up. Especially depending on which judge you get and how bad the cop lied. I got locked up for a few days for reckless driving. Apparently the 2 ton truck I was driving was somehow able to get up to 80 mph and stop within a quarter mile, or at least so says the cop. I had a lawyer and everything. Needless to say my lawyer sucked.

Trogdor the Burninator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apparently the 2 ton
> truck I was driving was somehow able to get up to
> 80 mph and stop within a quarter mile, or at least
> so says the cop. I had a lawyer and everything.
> Needless to say my lawyer sucked.

The best part of my whole court proceedings was the judge announcing that "the court" had no bias towards the police and that the state had to show proof.

30 seconds later, the cop was "estimating" my speed 15mph above what I was going (which, coincidentally, put his estimate at 5mph above the speed limit). I tried to appeal to the judges sense of reality that my car was incapable of accelerating to 40mph from a stop in the distance the officer was claiming. I even had pictures. The judge was not amused. I know now that I should have jumped down the officers throat about his "estimation" but I doubt that even would have done my case any good. The judge, in court, told me that by providing pictures I had pissed her off and I was 'stupid' (Or did she call me an idiot.. it was over a year ago now.). I hate to say it, but I never want to have a female judge after that experience.

The truth is, YOU NEED TO GET A LAWYER for anything serious or you will get boned by the court.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2005 10:47AM by ben.

Hey dude, I still think even if you represent yourself, you should take 40 bucks out of your pocket and sit with a lawyer for 30... they can at least tell you how to approach the topic of whether the cops had grounds to search you. That's your whole case, buddy. You also need a primer on court behavior, the guy above was right... judges here have no love for your rights and they are PRESUMING YOU GUILTY, well imcompetent to represent yourself, anyway!!! Sucks but it's true... the burden is ALWAYS on the defendent here. The cops are automatically taken at their word without SOLID proof they are lying. The lawyer neutralizes that effect.. as an officer of the court he also has to be taken at his word without solid proof, plus judges are lawyers... they respect their own.

And only morons let a judge try a criminal case. Get a jury, you have the right for any crime facing a criminal sentence and your luck may be much better... you only have to get one dude who hates the court system or think he's on law and order and wants to be all badass by sticking to the prosecutor.

Oh yeah, and make sure you get a continuance at the first hearing. You are entitled and it has happened in the past that if you continued long enough the pros gives up and moves on if you are not worth it.

(your case, I'd lick my chops if I were a prosecutor... you even ADMIT you lifted your shirt of your own volition. Good luck explaining how that was a rights violation, at least without a lawyer explaining it for you.)

yea, thanks everyone.

i'll probably just talk to a lawyer, and see how things work out, and if he seems to know what he's talking about, i'll probably hire him or ask him for someone else to hire.

and even though i dont wanna waste too much of my time, i probably will get a continuance if it'll get me off the hook.

lol.

thanks everyone.

I know this is way old, but if you need a recommendation for a good/inexpensive local defense lawyer, let me know. dleemundy1@hotmail.com. I'll hook you up with my old roommate. He's ppl that knows ppl.

- dlee

Great, low people in high places...nice to know them ;)

Free legal advice. Look up the concealed weapon statute, its probably online. Look for their definition of knife as a weapon. Not all knives are weapons under the statute. Folding blade will help you, but if it locks, that doesn't help. If it locks, but has no guard to stop your hand from sliding forward while stabbing, it will probably not be considered a weapon. If you have the time, go to GMU's law library and ask for help finding the VA or Atlantic digest. The index is straightforward and it will point you to cases that will help you if are intent on representing yourself. The probable cause wont fly, the cop will lie and say he asked for your ID, not ordered you. Another angle is whether they were concealed at all. The cases in the digest will explain what is concealed and what isn't. Get a jury and good luck.

Check out:
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/cjis_cwp.htm

Depends on what sort of knife it was... Maybe that will help.
-Andrew

does that mean you have to carry knives out in your hand when you walk around with them?

You're going to jail.

A thought.

If you're being charged for this under the concealed weapons statute, there are a couple of concepts you should be aware of.

Under the statute a concealed weapons permit is not required when you're in your own home or in the curtailage thereof. In other words, if you're in your own front yard, you can conceal to your heart's content. In the case of an apartment complex, curtailage can probably be debated a little more, but there's still a case to be made that you were entirely legal.

Damn Goaltender66, curtialge, that's good. That's why I'm not a criminal lawyer. Just a word to whoever is still listening. Dont ever say anything to the police. Its on them to prove their case against you, and almost nothing you say at the scene can help you in any way. Just shut the fuck up and dont be like those idiots on COPS who essentially incriminate themselves. Even for a speeding ticket, just shut up, and that still gives them no probable cause for anything beyond what they claim to stop you for. Enjoy, and remember, shut up.

try conceiling a sword. that never works.

If the blades were under 6" inches then it isnt considered a concealed deadly weapon.

If you have a switchblade, gravity knife (Butterfly knife), or projectile knife then it is considered a deadly weapon.

I had a cop confiscate my knife and then he told me to come pick it up at the station the next day.

The blade was 6 1/2 inches.

Then again, FCPD is so fucking NAZI.

I really want to hear the follow up about this situation. I've been boned pretty hard by both Fairfax and Arlington County and this is very interesting to me.

rstidman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey dude, I still think even if you represent
> yourself, you should take 40 bucks out of your
> pocket and sit with a lawyer for 30... they can at
> least tell you how to approach the topic of
> whether the cops had grounds to search you.
> That's your whole case, buddy. You also need a
> primer on court behavior, the guy above was
> right... judges here have no love for your rights
> and they are PRESUMING YOU GUILTY, well
> imcompetent to represent yourself, anyway!!!
> Sucks but it's true... the burden is ALWAYS on the
> defendent here. The cops are automatically taken
> at their word without SOLID proof they are lying.
> The lawyer neutralizes that effect.. as an officer
> of the court he also has to be taken at his word
> without solid proof, plus judges are lawyers...
> they respect their own.
>
>snip<
>
> (your case, I'd lick my chops if I were a
> prosecutor... you even ADMIT you lifted your shirt
> of your own volition. Good luck explaining how
> that was a rights violation, at least without a
> lawyer explaining it for you.)


I think that's the key right there... judges are lawyers and respect their own. I've always felt that for whatever reason, the judges in fairfax take offense if you have the nerve to come into court without a lawyer. Even if you ARE a lawyer, because A) you aren't paying into their industry, and/or B) You must think you're better than a lawyer. Nobody's better than a lawyer, you know?

When I was in high school, a friend's father was the chief justice of the ffxcty general district court. He pretty much said the same thing, too. It's like going down to the plumber's union to tell them you're going to fix your plumbing yourself. (if they had a hall, and well, it's just a comparative explanation)

As far as probable cause. Anything in plain view IS probable cause. I'd question the demand for identification, although I think they've disavowed the constitution even further lately, and have somehow made it okay for a police officer to demand identification from anyone they wish. Though I was always told that you never have to disclose even your name unless you were being charged with something. Not to mention, even if they were wrong for asking for ID, I don't believe that would negate the "in plain view" argument, since you could have just as easily exposed the "concealed weapons" on your own, in some other way. I'd argue that they were not concealed. Simply "temporarily out of view, but nonetheless carried in a manner intended to be visible" or something like that. Or even that they were visible the entire time to begin with, but just not noticed until you called attention to them by moving your jacket to reach into your pocket. You could also pull a "Johnny Cochran", go out and purchase an identical jacket that is smaller enough to expose your belt, and wear or bring it into court. "If the jacket don't fit, you must acquit!" :P


Some people use cell phones to trigger IED's in war zones. Does that make it a weapon? If so, we better be careful when wearing a jacket with one of these dastardly devices clipped to our belts ;)

But to think that the cops, first, can or otherwise do demand ID from someone who is not suspected of anything and then second, apparently view every citizen as a criminal they just haven't found a reason to arrest yet is kind of unsettling. I mean, sure, the easiest way to "clean up the streets" would be to simply lock EVERYONE up, but then who would be left to pay taxes to pay their salaries, and for all the prisons?

Definitely get a lawyer. If you have to borrow from all your friends, do it. I've only ever spent a night in the ffx jail, in the drunk tank, but it doesn't take much to realize it's not a nice place to be.

PhilLesh,

> "I think that's the key right there... judges are lawyers and respect their own. I've always felt that for whatever reason, the judges in fairfax take offense if you have the nerve to come into court without a lawyer."

Not everyone can afford to get a lawyer, they are damn expensive. I'm sure the judges feel you are being offense like this but that just shows how corrupt they truely are. Freedom for the rich, fines/jail for the average Joe.


> "A) you aren't paying into their industry"
Sounds like the RIAA Nazis

> "B) You must think you're better than a lawyer. Nobody's better than a lawyer"
Again if they assume you think you are better than a lawyer which they identify with, that sounds like they have become personally involved and offended instantly. Now that is justice. Some lawyers, specifically the public kind aren't interested in getting justice for you. They just want to reduce charges (at best) and settle the case as fast as possible. Hooray for justice.

So... the justice system is fucked. The judges are corrupt and police just as much.

I love this place.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

jail sucks man, get a laywer ..its worth it.
im pretty sure you can get this knocked down
if not dismissed, if the case is ..the knives
where worn in a manner so they were supposed
to be visible but your jacket was hiding them
due to the weather. either way, lawyers will
help you out a lot, just having shows the court
and the judge that you are putting effort
towards you trying to get out of trouble, and
that your spending money and blah blah.
instead of him thinking that your going to
get away with that shit scot free. also the
lawyers are the ones that know all the laws
and all the shit where you can get out of
trouble ..and he maybe know a loop hole
for you to get outta trouble. just kinda a
decent lawyer, one that knows his way around
the system ..and you'll be straight.

listening to this haha guy in some of his other posts, he probably was trying to conceal it. Or at least he looked threatening enough and was acting suspicious enough to rouse their curiosity.

PaperPusher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> listening to this haha guy in some of his other
> posts, he probably was trying to conceal it. Or
> at least he looked threatening enough and was
> acting suspicious enough to rouse their curiosity.

the isp/ip he used to post in this thread was different than the "haha" that posted in a different thread so who knows if they're the same person.
another good reason to register a login name.

could be the library's computer and the computer at the 7-Eleven where he works?

PaperPusher.

> "could be the library's computer and the computer at the 7-Eleven where he works?"

Since when did 7-Eleven get computers, much less computers with internet access. Point-Of-Sale devices hardly count as computers.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

I'm sure the point of sale sevices there have more computing power than what sent Apollo to the moon... not bad for a machine that assists with selling hot dogs and sodas.

I dunno. I went to 7-11 the other day. Went to get a drink from the coolers in the back and it wouldn't scan. So the moron behind the desk says "won't scan, can't buy" He refused to go look at the price and punch it in. Goes to show you how far you can get with no education.

education don't cure lazy

hey hey hey

bumpin old threads everyday

ah, this is like a snap shot of the internet pre inane trolling.

nowadays whenever a forums gets popular, even on a local level, it goes to shit.

meh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hey hey hey
>
> bumpin old threads everyday


You still trying to bump what I think you are? I'm trying to be a gentleman. Know anything about steroids? Can I eat one and become 6 ft 8 and 300 pounds? Only so I can beat you up, lol!!:). Better know where she is, or time out for 30 minutes! Oh, with NO xbox or video games. Take THAT!