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Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: AP parent ()
Date: January 29, 2011 03:59PM

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2011/01/cuccinelli_says_fairfax_cant_c.html?hpid=newswell

I am awaiting my refund.

p.s. Let's quickly dispense with the Cuccinelli bashing, the snide comments about FCPS parents, income, masturbation, etc. Surprise the underground with a thoughtful comment.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: moochers ()
Date: January 29, 2011 04:02PM

AP parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am awaiting my refund.

Of course you are - you'd rather have the money in your pocket than the pride that comes with providing for yourself and your family and not mooching off others. Enjoy the refund - everyone else's taxes are paying for it.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Robin Hood ()
Date: January 29, 2011 04:05PM

That is very interesting. I had to pay for the AP fees as well for my high schooler. I had wondered why because high schools around here have been providing advanced programs (AP and IB) ever since the programs have been incorporated and now we parents have been forced to pay for AP/IB exam fees starting this year.

Should be interesting how FCPS responds to this--will Paul Reiner (sp?) hide under a rock or something?

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Bill N ()
Date: January 29, 2011 04:22PM

RH-This was a recent ruling by the VA AG. It is going to be interesting how this plays out. We're not just talking about AP fees (and I assume the IB fees that kids pay who go to those schools). My kids have had to buy books for their classes since middle school. Will those books now be provided free? Then their are the various fees, rental charges and fund raisers that kids in drama, band, orchestra and other programs pay.

Seems to me that the AG has opened a huge can of worms. However since the schools REQUIRE these things as part of their classes, and since the schools pay for them for free and reduced lunch kids, I can see some logic to it.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Cuccinelli is not our friend ()
Date: January 29, 2011 04:32PM

The WAPO quoted Cuccinelli as saying that elementary and secondary education has to be "generally free". The question is----what does "generally" mean? I don't think a kid has to take AP or IB in order to graduate from high school-----do those classes therefore not fit under the "generally" definition? I would not consider those classes to be part of a "general education". In fact, they are college level classes---not high school level. Last I checked, parents are required to pay for at least part of college for their kids---not the taxpayers. What about band and art classes---they have fees---are they under the "generally" definition? THere would actually be more of a rationale for those classses having no fees since the state requires a fine arts credit for high school graduation. There are many more examples---no kidding about the can of worms! I think this will be stuck in the courts for a while---it is wide open to interpretation and gives absolutely no guidelines to the school districts. I wouldn't hold my breath on getting your AP fee back anytime soon.

Just to make things more interesting----what about the supplies that students have to bring in at the beginning of the year---aren't those part of a "general education"? In Massachusetts those items are free. Of course you know that they call that state Taxachusetts. You are going to pay one way or another. Is Mr. Cuccinelli ready to send more state taxes to our county?

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: not GT I guess ()
Date: January 29, 2011 04:45PM

"That is very interesting. I had to pay for the AP fees as well for my high schooler. I had wondered why "


Answer for people with heads stuck in the sand: WE ARE IN A REALLY BAD RECESSION AND TAX REVENUES ARE DOWN. INSTEAD OF ASKING FOR MORE TAX MONEY, THEY ARE NOT GIVING TEACHERS COLA INCREASES, INCREASING CLASS SIZES, ETC. AND THEY ARE MAKING YOU PAY FOR AP/IB TESTS. THIS IS YOUR ANSWER SO THAT YOU CAN STOP WONDERING!!

You might start watching the school board meetings on channel 21, reading a newspaper, or reading the news. Or just log onto FCPS once in a while and read the first web page. It was posted for a long time there.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Robin Hood ()
Date: January 29, 2011 05:00PM

not GT I guess Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "That is very interesting. I had to pay for the AP
> fees as well for my high schooler. I had wondered
> why "
>
>
> Answer for people with heads stuck in the sand:
> WE ARE IN A REALLY BAD RECESSION AND TAX REVENUES
> ARE DOWN. INSTEAD OF ASKING FOR MORE TAX MONEY,
> THEY ARE NOT GIVING TEACHERS COLA INCREASES,
> INCREASING CLASS SIZES, ETC. AND THEY ARE MAKING
> YOU PAY FOR AP/IB TESTS. THIS IS YOUR ANSWER SO
> THAT YOU CAN STOP WONDERING!!
>
> You might start watching the school board meetings
> on channel 21, reading a newspaper, or reading the
> news. Or just log onto FCPS once in a while and
> read the first web page. It was posted for a long
> time there.


I get it, but what I MEANT was that the schools have been providing advanced programs for such a long time then staring this year we parents have to pay for fees among other things. Like the previous poster said, this AG ruling has opened a huge can of worms.

We are in a bad recession, challenges with teacher raises, increasing class sizes, etc etc I GET ALL THAT--I started saving money to pay for the AP fees the minute I received the letter from the principal last summer explaining these fees.

I retract my comment of "had wondered why"

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: YM ()
Date: January 31, 2011 11:10AM

Cutting funding for AP exams was a bad idea. The money FCPS spent on paying for students' AP exams was something like 0.1% of the budget, it's not something that would have made a very large dent in solving any sort of budget problems, but it is something that's very noticeable to any student who is enrolled in an AP course. A lot of those school-ranking metrics that so many people are obsessed with tend to heavily weigh the number of students taking AP exams, and making families pay for the exam means that fewer students will take the exams, leading to lower school rankings.

If they want to cut funding, the first thing they should cut are bullshit programs like Latin, Advanced Gym, Oceanography, Fashion Marketing, etc.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: whiners! ()
Date: January 31, 2011 11:31AM

YM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If they want to cut funding, the first thing they
> should cut are bullshit programs like Latin,
> Advanced Gym, Oceanography, Fashion Marketing,
> etc.


Wah, wah, wah. Don't take anything from me, take it from those other guys.

Here's an idea - how about we all pay for what we consume beyond a basic education - GT, AP, sports, orchestra, whatever. Your kid gets a basic, SOL-based education for free, and then anything extra you get to write a check for. And if you are poor, we'll have a 100% audited program (bring your W-2's and tax returns) to take care of those folks. Everyone else pays their way.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Kookanelli ()
Date: January 31, 2011 11:41AM

Whoa, not so fast, I never said anything about IB test fees.

IB is a left-wing conspiracy to destroy 'Murca. IB is unconstitutional!

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: help ()
Date: January 31, 2011 07:54PM

Whoa, not so fast, I never said anything about IB test fees.

IB is a left-wing conspiracy to destroy 'Murca. IB is unconstitutional!




The above comment is exactly why this country is going down the tubes. God forbid that we learn about any other perspective but the "we know how to do everything right" one.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Done with Cuccinelli ()
Date: January 31, 2011 08:17PM

This has to be one of Cuccinelli's dumbest ideas. The AP program is voluntary; no one is forced into it. Yes, high achieving students are encouraged to apply, but it is optional. Don't like the fee? Don't take the class. From a low income family? Apply for the low income waiver.

Second, one of the principles behind the AP program is to save parents and students money from college tuition by possibly receiving college credit in high school. Is it too much to ask that you pay a small fee that could potentially save you thousands of dollars down the road? NO!

Third, do you honestly think students will study as hard if someone else is picking up the tab? Will parents be as invested in their child's prepraration?

If this is enforced than schools should pay for everthing: band,athletics, art classes, breakfast and lunch for all students regardless of income - then let's really have a free education.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: trogdor! ()
Date: January 31, 2011 11:43PM

Don't blame it on Ken. He's just telling you what the law says, not regurgitating some fantasy about what everyone wants the law to be.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: the dude ()
Date: January 31, 2011 11:48PM

yeah well you know, that's just like, his opinion, man.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: simple solution ()
Date: February 01, 2011 06:38AM

Easy one step solution

Lift the graduation standard to AP

Stop graduating people who aren't educated to international levels. If graduating means that you're just about qualified for burger flipping, then its just not a useful qualification.

Cuccinelli is the best reason I've ever seen for ditching the red parts of the state. His witch hunt of Michael Mann and UVA made Virginia look like a hick bible belt scopes-trial throwback state

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: needed reform ()
Date: February 01, 2011 07:26AM

The problem with FCPS is that they seem intent on providing a Las Vegas-style buffet of education options for every possible set of interests. It keeps growing and growing - language immersion, GT, AP, IB, adult ed, sports and activities.

All these options have grown so much in scope and cost that we can no longer afford them. They all now have their own constituencies, demanding their continuation forever.

They have also dumbed down the basics - the worst thing to be in FCPS is the child between the 30% and 80% mark in aptitude tests. Score high you go into GT, score low you get IEP's and all that that entails. But the great middle gets no attention at all and has no organized support.

All of the nice to have extras need to be cut back, and FCPS needs to re-focus on the basic educational mission of schools.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: When I was in High School ()
Date: February 01, 2011 07:37AM

I wasn't spoiled enough to have my exams paid for by my parents; my AP exams were paid for by me....even though I never took them I still had to pay the $15. I even paid for my own lunch and clothes because my parents were already doing enough to support me.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: state code for AP/IB ()
Date: February 01, 2011 06:11PM

"Don't blame it on Ken. He's just telling you what the law says, not regurgitating some fantasy about what everyone wants the law to be."



There's a law that says that the taxpayers must pay for AP and IB tests??? Please give the number and letters for that law. Thank you.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Rob ()
Date: February 01, 2011 08:38PM

The legal problem for FCPS is that it requires students to sit for the AP Exam in order to get the 1.0 bonus point on their transcripts. That's their carrot to get the kids to take the exam. Therefore, by charging for the exam, FCPS is basically having the students buy points for their GPA.

The irony of the policy is that a student who is legitimately out for an illness may not be able to makeup the exam because the College Board allows makeups under only the most extreme circumstances and, as a rsult, would be denied the bonus point. However, a student who walks into the exam room, writes his name on the answer sheet, and sleeps for the next three hours is entitled to the 1.0 bonus.

All Fairfax needs to do is make the bonus grade point independent of the student taking the exam and they would no longer be in violation.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: ThePackLeader ()
Date: February 01, 2011 09:45PM

The AP exam is for college credit, and college courses cost money, so why should AP students be allowed to circumvent that?

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: another thought ()
Date: February 01, 2011 10:20PM

Lots of colleges strip the extra 1.0 point on the grade point average from the AP courses and then refigure the GPA. This is pretty common. They have other ways of taking the AP level into consideration when figuring out who to accept. They do this because lots of schools don't give the extra 1.0. I believe they do the same thing with honors classes. They use some other metric that is separate to take the school and class rigor into consideration.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: trogdor! ()
Date: February 01, 2011 10:46PM

state code for AP/IB Wrote:

> There's a law that says that the taxpayers must
> pay for AP and IB tests??? Please give the
> number and letters for that law. Thank you.

The issue is the state code says that schools cannot charge students any fees that are not authorized by title 22. So you need to find a code section that authorizes school boards to charge for the test.
_____________________________
§ 22.1-6. Permitted fees and charges.

Except as provided in this title or as permitted by regulation of the Board of Education, no fees or charges may be levied on any pupil by any school board. No pupil's scholastic report card or diploma shall be withheld because of nonpayment of any such fee or charge.

(Code 1950, §§ 22-197, 22-198, 22-199; 1977, c. 204; 1980, c. 559.)
_____________________________

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: ThePackLeader ()
Date: February 01, 2011 11:04PM

trogdor! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> state code for AP/IB Wrote:
>
> > There's a law that says that the taxpayers must
> > pay for AP and IB tests??? Please give the
> > number and letters for that law. Thank you.
>
> The issue is the state code says that schools
> cannot charge students any fees that are not
> authorized by title 22. So you need to find a
> code section that authorizes school boards to
> charge for the test.
> _____________________________
> § 22.1-6. Permitted fees and charges.
>
> Except as provided in this title or as permitted
> by regulation of the Board of Education, no fees
> or charges may be levied on any pupil by any
> school board. No pupil's scholastic report card or
> diploma shall be withheld because of nonpayment of
> any such fee or charge.
>
> (Code 1950, §§ 22-197, 22-198, 22-199; 1977, c.
> 204; 1980, c. 559.)
> _____________________________


Still, the fact that it's a collegiate level credit justifies the cost. If it needs to be clarified by the state legislature, then they should get on the ball and do it.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Charlie ()
Date: February 02, 2011 07:52AM

You only get college credit if you score a certain grade. Just because you take the test does not mean you earn credit. The fees are $75 per test for each subject. Most students take more than one test. If you are in the IB program you end up taking at least 6 tests for the diploma with absolutely no guarantee of college credit even if you do score well. It is not as easy as saying don't take IB or AP. At some schools there is no other choice for higher-level, challenging course work. It is AP/IB or the dumbed-down classes. If this is what you want to offer students, then prepare for a mass exodus of families and their tax dollars.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Bill N ()
Date: February 02, 2011 08:30AM

Also in some of these classes the AP or IB test is the final exam or fourth quarter grade. If you don't take the exam you get an F. If they disconnected the class from the exam I think the problem goes away. OTOH I don't see this as much different from the requirement that certain band members who have to participate in marching band are required to pay related fees for that activity.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Seeker ()
Date: February 02, 2011 08:33AM

Charlie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You only get college credit if you score a certain
> grade. Just because you take the test does not
> mean you earn credit. The fees are $75 per test
> for each subject. Most students take more than
> one test. If you are in the IB program you end up
> taking at least 6 tests for the diploma with
> absolutely no guarantee of college credit even if
> you do score well. It is not as easy as saying
> don't take IB or AP. At some schools there is no
> other choice for higher-level, challenging course
> work. It is AP/IB or the dumbed-down classes. If
> this is what you want to offer students, then
> prepare for a mass exodus of families and their
> tax dollars.


Colleges are getting tighter with awarding credit for AP and IB courses with only the top scores (4 or 5 on AP...5, 6 or 7 on IB) being eligible at most schools. While I think that the standard should be high to demonstrate that the student understands the material with the required level of mastery, others have rightly pointed out that some students take AP simply because many of the alternative courses are watered down dreck which have a hodgepodge of students who are simply passing time.

Taking the test, with the required fee, is holding the student hostage for the additional bonus point on their GPA which is wrong. With regards to AP the solution for FCPS seems simple...decouple the requirement for taking the AP exam and allow student to determine whether they know the material well enough to get a high score. The IB exam may be a bit more difficult since the exam is really an integral part of the curriculum and I don't know that you can opt out of the exam, but my understanding is that your score has no bearing on your course grade since they are available long after the school year ends.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: simple solution ()
Date: February 02, 2011 08:53AM

Wouldn't the simple solution be to not REQUIRE the AP tests at the end of the course, and have an alternate final exam for students who wish to not take the test for whatever reason?

I took I think 4 AP courses in HS (this was in the 80's when that was considered a lot). I knew my college would not accept AP credit for Calculus, so I didn't bother to take the exam. I don't remember that being a big deal - you still got your grade in the course.

What's missing here - this doesn't seem like a difficult problem to solve.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Shadow ()
Date: February 02, 2011 09:03AM

When I was in High School Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wasn't spoiled enough to have my exams paid for
> by my parents; my AP exams were paid for by
> me....even though I never took them I still had to
> pay the $15. I even paid for my own lunch and
> clothes because my parents were already doing
> enough to support me.


CLearly it's been awhile since you were in school. The fees are now $75 for each test. Personally, I don't have a problem paying it. I've paid for a variety of other extras, like marching band, and then there are the class fees. Which as I recall, WSHS used as part of the class grade on at least one occasion. (Pay the fee on time, get a positive grade..don't pay-get a zero) Had no idea that was illegal. Too bad that kid is out of school now. Would have been fun to argue that one.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Rob ()
Date: February 02, 2011 07:47PM

The AP Exam scores are not used as part of letter grades for the students since the scores do not arrive in the schools until early July.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: ThePackLeader ()
Date: February 02, 2011 08:24PM

Charlie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You only get college credit if you score a certain
> grade. Just because you take the test does not
> mean you earn credit. The fees are $75 per test
> for each subject. Most students take more than
> one test. If you are in the IB program you end up
> taking at least 6 tests for the diploma with
> absolutely no guarantee of college credit even if
> you do score well. It is not as easy as saying
> don't take IB or AP. At some schools there is no
> other choice for higher-level, challenging course
> work. It is AP/IB or the dumbed-down classes. If
> this is what you want to offer students, then
> prepare for a mass exodus of families and their
> tax dollars.

Ummm, duh, you have to receive a PASSING grade.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Hud ()
Date: February 02, 2011 11:06PM

ThePackLeader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Charlie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You only get college credit if you score a
> certain
> > grade. Just because you take the test does not
> > mean you earn credit. The fees are $75 per
> test
> > for each subject. Most students take more than
> > one test. If you are in the IB program you end
> up
> > taking at least 6 tests for the diploma with
> > absolutely no guarantee of college credit even
> if
> > you do score well. It is not as easy as saying
> > don't take IB or AP. At some schools there is
> no
> > other choice for higher-level, challenging
> course
> > work. It is AP/IB or the dumbed-down classes.
> If
> > this is what you want to offer students, then
> > prepare for a mass exodus of families and their
> > tax dollars.
>
> Ummm, duh, you have to receive a PASSING grade.

Uhh, actually you do not have to receive a passing grade. So duh to you.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: ThePackLeader ()
Date: February 02, 2011 11:50PM

Hud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ThePackLeader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Charlie Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > You only get college credit if you score a
> > certain
> > > grade. Just because you take the test does
> not
> > > mean you earn credit. The fees are $75 per
> > test
> > > for each subject. Most students take more
> than
> > > one test. If you are in the IB program you
> end
> > up
> > > taking at least 6 tests for the diploma with
> > > absolutely no guarantee of college credit
> even
> > if
> > > you do score well. It is not as easy as
> saying
> > > don't take IB or AP. At some schools there
> is
> > no
> > > other choice for higher-level, challenging
> > course
> > > work. It is AP/IB or the dumbed-down
> classes.
> > If
> > > this is what you want to offer students, then
> > > prepare for a mass exodus of families and
> their
> > > tax dollars.
> >
> > Ummm, duh, you have to receive a PASSING grade.
>
> Uhh, actually you do not have to receive a passing
> grade. So duh to you.


To get the college credit you do.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: DET ()
Date: February 03, 2011 07:53AM

ThePackLeader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hud Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ThePackLeader Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Charlie Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > You only get college credit if you score a
> > > certain
> > > > grade. Just because you take the test does
> > not
> > > > mean you earn credit. The fees are $75 per
> > > test
> > > > for each subject. Most students take more
> > than
> > > > one test. If you are in the IB program you
> > end
> > > up
> > > > taking at least 6 tests for the diploma
> with
> > > > absolutely no guarantee of college credit
> > even
> > > if
> > > > you do score well. It is not as easy as
> > saying
> > > > don't take IB or AP. At some schools there
> > is
> > > no
> > > > other choice for higher-level, challenging
> > > course
> > > > work. It is AP/IB or the dumbed-down
> > classes.
> > > If
> > > > this is what you want to offer students,
> then
> > > > prepare for a mass exodus of families and
> > their
> > > > tax dollars.
> > >
> > > Ummm, duh, you have to receive a PASSING
> grade.
> >
> > Uhh, actually you do not have to receive a
> passing
> > grade. So duh to you.
>
>
> To get the college credit you do.

The original point was kids have to take the test whether they want to or not or whether they pass or not. So those saying that it is a bargain because you don't have to pay for the college credit are incorrect in assuming that all get college credit for the $75 per test.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Shirley ()
Date: February 03, 2011 11:50AM

So does this mean that we no longer have to pay. When is FCPS going to respond?

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: more to it ()
Date: February 03, 2011 07:51PM

I think the state code is a big problem. It doesn't seem specific enough---there are course fees for other courses in high school---will those have to be refunded? Why didn't this come up before for those classes????

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Reply.com ()
Date: February 03, 2011 08:33PM

The School Board will vote the Superintendent’s advertised budget this evening at 7:00 at Luther Jackson Middle School. All information about these meetings can be found on the FCPS website at www.fcps.edu. The Board is ...aware of Attorney General Cuccenelli’s opinion on testing fees and has asked for further clarification on the matter due to some inconsistencies in his opinion. The AP/IB fees were originally agreed to by the Board because of the severe budgetary conditions being faced by the School System last year.

During the previous three years the Board has reduced the FCPS budget by $465 million, in doing so we have cut valued programs like summer school, increased class size, imposed fees on sports to maintain sports, incurred enrollment gains of over 10,0000 new students and have asked our teachers to go without compensation increases for over 2 years. We now are facing another budget deficit and decreases in federal stimulus and state funding. As a life-long resident of this county, I can honestly say the quality of education Fairfax residents and students have grown accustomed to is in jeopardy.

FCPS is the 11th largest school system in the nation, it’s reputation and quality is a key reason why many large and small firms move to Fairfax County. I find it somewhat ironic that one of Fairfax’s best gems is being tarnished by those who appreciate its successes; that being certain members of the Board of Supervisors. The school system relies on the county transfer, without adequate funding we will compromise the education of many students like yourself.

Thank you for your email. I hope I have assisted with your questions.

Sincerely,

Liz Bradsher

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Kareen Lawson ()
Date: February 05, 2011 05:16PM

We paid $300 for our daughter's AP exams. I feel very fortunate that we could afford to do so. My only comment is that there doesn't seem to be any happy medium as far as classes go once you get into 11th and 12th grade. Our son was not an AP student and once honors classes were no longer available, I was consistently disapointed with the quality of the classes he was in. Just because you are not in an AP class does not mean you don't deserve high quality, challenging teaching. If you are going to make parents pay for AP exams you need to make sure that the free options are of good quality.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: understand the issue ()
Date: February 05, 2011 06:03PM

I agree with Kareen Lawson. One of the biggest problems we have right now is that boys are being left out of our system. I also have a son. Yes, he is smart---but he has not gained the maturity that many girls his age have (they are just ahead of boys on this count). He is still playful and a bit undisciplined (and that's not altogether a bad thing---especially the playful part, but in school it is). He is in honors classes right now and loves them and actually does well, but next year (grade 11), his choice is AP or standard. Is he ready to go to college yet (at age 16)? That's what AP is. No, he probably is not. But does he want to go into the non-college prep level? No, not at all. There is nothing for him that "fits". I feel he is really being "left behind". It's no wonder that the percentage of women in colleges is way higher than men now. We are really not helping our sons.

Oh, one reason that this is the choice that exists is so that the schools can make it to those top high school lists that are based on the number of students in AP courses at the school (the "Jay Matthews" list).

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Reply.com ()
Date: February 05, 2011 09:29PM

Yes I agree, for the 11th and 12th grade there should be an honors for english and history classes, it's either choosing to be in Ap, which can be difficult for some students, or choosing to be in standard, where it goes really slow, and you feel stupid. There should be a middle between these two groups to make student learning better.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Lancer ()
Date: February 07, 2011 01:51PM

When do I get my refund?

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: other places ()
Date: February 07, 2011 04:47PM

I talked to my sister in Minnesota today. She said she had never heard of a school system paying for AP exams. She said she wants her refund even though her daughters graduated some years ago. They took quite a few AP courses. What do you think? Should she try to see if this is "illegal" there? It sounds like Minnesota would have a lot of refunding to do. Maybe it's only "illegal" in certain places.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: To Dumb F*#K ()
Date: February 07, 2011 10:32PM

other places Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I talked to my sister in Minnesota today. She
> said she had never heard of a school system paying
> for AP exams. She said she wants her refund even
> though her daughters graduated some years ago.
> They took quite a few AP courses. What do you
> think? Should she try to see if this is "illegal"
> there? It sounds like Minnesota would have a lot
> of refunding to do. Maybe it's only "illegal" in
> certain places.

Maybe you should go to Minnesota to help her out.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Kaye ()
Date: February 15, 2011 03:07PM

Anything more on our refunds?

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: jemelon ()
Date: February 15, 2011 04:30PM

.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2014 08:21AM by jemelon.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Do we need this? ()
Date: February 16, 2011 08:52AM

I agree with jemelon. The AP class is basically acting as the school's honors class for core subjects because the other choice is to take a standard course. If the school does not implement an honors section for the core classes in grades 11 and 12, the student is "forced" to take the AP level to get into a higher level course. This really means that the school should pay any expenses associated with the course since other honors courses are free (such as they exist at 9th and 10th grade levels). It's either that or they are admitting that they can no longer offer free education at the honors level in grades 11 and 12.

I personally think they should scrap the AP and just implement some very good local honors courses in grades 11 and 12. We have some great teachers who can tailor courses to the students' interests and not just follow a national curriculum. Many colleges are not that enthralled by AP anyway.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: good point, but ()
Date: February 16, 2011 11:00PM

FFX county pays an outside entity for the AP tests. I believe this charge came up as everyone was debating everything else that was being cut/not being paid for over these last few years (like paying for the full expansion of FDK - and no, it's needed, not just govt paid child care, especially since so many kids have so many different levels of varying educational and other needs these days - even in the "Wealthier" areas - in addition, the class sizes are larger than ever).

Yes, FFX Co has voted FDK/finish the expansion back in, but I'd bet it's going to be cut every year due to budget constraints (if it ever makes it into the final budget in the first place - I'd bet it's all for show).

I'd hope that most teachers can teach to levels of varied ability and interest in a classroom. Seems this varies from school to school, principal to principal, teacher to teacher. That said, can't imagine why they don't continue the honors program through grade 12/why they can't have more leveled teaching with the budget and teachers they have already. It could potentially be an almost no-cost to zero cost program change.



Kareen Lawson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We paid $300 for our daughter's AP exams. I feel
> very fortunate that we could afford to do so. My
> only comment is that there doesn't seem to be any
> happy medium as far as classes go once you get
> into 11th and 12th grade. Our son was not an AP
> student and once honors classes were no longer
> available, I was consistently disapointed with the
> quality of the classes he was in. Just because
> you are not in an AP class does not mean you don't
> deserve high quality, challenging teaching. If
> you are going to make parents pay for AP exams you
> need to make sure that the free options are of
> good quality.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: good point, but ()
Date: February 16, 2011 11:15PM

Ah, but wait - if kids sign up for honors, and not AP, those kids aren't included in that ratio that scores the best HS in the country (Jay Matthews' list). I get it now, unfortunately. FFX co would go down in the best HS list.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Mediocre Education ()
Date: February 17, 2011 07:07AM

Kareen Lawson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We paid $300 for our daughter's AP exams. I feel
> very fortunate that we could afford to do so. My
> only comment is that there doesn't seem to be any
> happy medium as far as classes go once you get
> into 11th and 12th grade. Our son was not an AP
> student and once honors classes were no longer
> available, I was consistently disapointed with the
> quality of the classes he was in. Just because
> you are not in an AP class does not mean you don't
> deserve high quality, challenging teaching. If
> you are going to make parents pay for AP exams you
> need to make sure that the free options are of
> good quality.

+1

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Montgomery County ()
Date: February 17, 2011 08:15AM

In Montgomery County the AP exams are required, but the requirement is hidden. Here's how it works. Take the AP exam you can skip the final with no penalty.

MCPS charges $87 per exam and late fees if you don't sign up for the exam by the school's deadline. Dates to sign up vary. Some late fees have run as high as $100.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: blighter ()
Date: February 17, 2011 08:29AM

Mediocre Education Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kareen Lawson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > We paid $300 for our daughter's AP exams. I
> feel
> > very fortunate that we could afford to do so.
> My
> > only comment is that there doesn't seem to be
> any
> > happy medium as far as classes go once you get
> > into 11th and 12th grade. Our son was not an
> AP
> > student and once honors classes were no longer
> > available, I was consistently disapointed with
> the
> > quality of the classes he was in. Just because
> > you are not in an AP class does not mean you
> don't
> > deserve high quality, challenging teaching. If
> > you are going to make parents pay for AP exams
> you
> > need to make sure that the free options are of
> > good quality.
>
> +1


I wouldn't have minded paying. I think Cuccinelli is wrong, but I see the FCPS has given up the idea. So now other ways will have to be found to reduce the budget gap.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Robin Hood ()
Date: February 17, 2011 06:48PM


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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: February 17, 2011 06:52PM

Easy solution to this....make the AP exam optional. If it is optional, then you can charge a fee.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: good point, but ()
Date: February 17, 2011 08:19PM

Ah, yes - but then, how would they measure which high schools are best across the country? It's a measure of how many kids take the test. Perhaps they should measure the improvement and performance of all kids, not just those who take AP.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: depressing ()
Date: February 18, 2011 10:27AM

Doesn't everyone find this situation depressing? Is there any drive towards excellence any longer?

FCPS spent 4/5 times the amount of AP fees on having masses of teachers prepare and review VGLA binders, an exercise with a principal purpose of making administrators look good and to give off a misleading perception that academic progress was much greater than it was. Yikes. This doesn't lead to confidence in the schools.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Shadow ()
Date: April 12, 2011 10:48PM

FYI, FC school board voted on March 24 to refund the AP/IB test payments as a result of the January 28, 2011 opinion issued by the Virginia Attorney General.

Refunds will depend on how parents originally paid. Letters were mailed to the parents of AP/IB students.

Essentially, they are reversing the payments. If you paid by check or e-check, it will be deposited into your account. If you paid by credit or debit card, transaction will be reversed.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: consequences ()
Date: April 13, 2011 07:52AM

I know of kids who just go and put their names on the test paper and sit for the AP exam---because it is required. They don't care about the credit and some know they won't pass. It counts as a kid taking an AP exam for the "Jay Matthews" list purposes.

This is how FCPS gets on the "best high schools" list?

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: yes ()
Date: April 13, 2011 05:15PM

I've heard from teachers that some students just sign their name, and then submit the test without even trying. If they do this, they get .5 added to their grade, regardless of how they perform on the test (which will be a "0" since they didn't complete the test booklet)

If they don't "take" the test (don't sit and sign their name), then no .5 added to their GPA for them. Your tax dollars at work (paying for this test, they essentially didn't take - kind of enticed to, given the .5 added to their grade). The system and how it works sets us up for this.

I truly think parents should pay for the test. Students get college credit if they do well, which saves parents money. Students may be more apt to take it seriously. The best high schools list would be more accurate too. I don't think the # of kids who take the test should determine the best high schools list - rather, I think the number of kids who pass should determine best high schools.

Wonder how many school systems don't pay for the AP test, who we essentially "beat"in the rankings, simply because so many kids just "take" the test, since it's free here? (It's free, and it boosts your grade by .5, why not?) Or perhaps taking the test just shouldn't boost kids grades by .5. I've never heard of such rot.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: list is not inclusive ()
Date: April 13, 2011 05:51PM

There are a lot of school systems that refuse to submit their data for the "Jay Matthews" game. They basically opt out of the list so they are not ranked.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: donations accepted? ()
Date: April 13, 2011 06:08PM

Any truth to the buzz tha the refund letter gives the parent the option to "donate" the reimbursed fees?

If so, too funny.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: -SBS-_ ()
Date: April 13, 2011 09:51PM

yes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've heard from teachers that some students just
> sign their name, and then submit the test without
> even trying. If they do this, they get .5 added
> to their grade, regardless of how they perform on
> the test (which will be a "0" since they didn't
> complete the test booklet)
>
> If they don't "take" the test (don't sit and sign
> their name), then no .5 added to their GPA for
> them. Your tax dollars at work (paying for this
> test, they essentially didn't take - kind of
> enticed to, given the .5 added to their grade).
> The system and how it works sets us up for this.
>
>
> I truly think parents should pay for the test.
> Students get college credit if they do well, which
> saves parents money. Students may be more apt to
> take it seriously. The best high schools list
> would be more accurate too. I don't think the #
> of kids who take the test should determine the
> best high schools list - rather, I think the
> number of kids who pass should determine best high
> schools.
>
> Wonder how many school systems don't pay for the
> AP test, who we essentially "beat"in the rankings,
> simply because so many kids just "take" the test,
> since it's free here? (It's free, and it boosts
> your grade by .5, why not?) Or perhaps taking the
> test just shouldn't boost kids grades by .5. I've
> never heard of such rot.

GPA's are actually increased by 1.0, not 0.5.

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Re: Virginia AG says FCPS cannot charge for AP exams
Posted by: Shadow ()
Date: April 13, 2011 10:20PM

donations accepted? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any truth to the buzz tha the refund letter gives
> the parent the option to "donate" the reimbursed
> fees?
>
> If so, too funny.


No, total myth. The parents don't have to do anything for the reversal to take place, so 'donating' isn't an option.

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