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Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Mofo ()
Date: November 30, 2010 10:45PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/30/AR2010113004624.html

However I do not condone such action!

I bet the arm chair lawyers (and even the few real ones on here) are going to love arguing over this.


Dropped 'at' in Va. law yields acquittal in school bus case

By Tom Jackman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 30, 2010; 10:17 PM

Virginia law on passing a stopped school bus has been clear for 40 years. Here - read it yourself:

"A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails to stop, when approaching from any direction, any school bus which is stopped on any highway, private road or school driveway for the purpose of taking on or discharging children."

Yes, drivers must stop a school bus which is, er, stopped.

Wait. Is something missing there?

Indeed. The preposition "at" was deleted in 1970 when the law was amended, the statute's history shows. And a man who zipped past a school bus, while it was picking up children with its lights flashing and stop sign extended, was found not guilty recently by a Fairfax County Circuit Court judge.

"He can only be guilty if he failed to stop any school bus," Judge Marcus D. Williams said at the end of the brief trial of John G. Mendez, 45, of Woodbridge. "And there's no evidence he did."

Williams added, "I hope that this is addressed so we don't have to keep dealing with this."

And the Virginia General Assembly will address it. Told by a reporter of Mendez's acquittal, Del. David B. Albo (R-Fairfax) said: "That's not good. That's a very serious charge. That needs to be fixed."

Still, the flawed law will stay on the books at least until January, when the Virginia legislature reconvenes, and most new laws won't take effect until July. Albo, chairman of the House Courts of Justice Committee, said that if there is enough support to push the bill through in emergency fashion, the word change could take effect as soon as late January.

Reckless driving is not just a traffic violation - it's a criminal misdemeanor punishable by jail time and stiff fines.

Mendez probably wasn't looking at any jail time. Still, he had received the ticket in the middle of a ridiculously bad morning - his tools were stolen and he was laid off his job before he passed the bus - and was thrilled by the judge's ruling, coming after argument from his attorney, Eric E. Clingan.

"Eric did his homework," Mendez said. "He did a lot of work and investigation into the statutes. . . . This is the greatest moment ever."

Clingan said he was not aware of the missing word in the statute until Mendez came into his office in June, shortly after he was ticketed on Hooes Road in the Springfield area. He said he took a look at the law, and "it just sort of jumped off the page at me." Clingan said Mendez couldn't afford his fee, so he agreed to take the case for free.

"I do believe there are judges who have taken people's licenses away for passing a school bus," Clingan said. "I hope, as much as anybody else, they'll fix this."

Clingan presented the argument first in Fairfax General District Court, where he said a judge told him that she was intrigued but wasn't buying it. He appealed to the Circuit Court.

Clingan handed up the statute to Williams, along with the "Acts of Assembly" from 1970, when the Virginia legislature changed what is now section 46.2-859. Somehow, nobody noticed the deletion of the word "at" in the following section. (Bolded words in brackets were deleted; italicized words were added.)

"A person shall be guilty of reckless driving who shall:

(f) Fail to stop, [at] when approaching from any direction, a school bus, whether publicly or privately owned, [and whether transporting children to, from, or in connection with a public or private school] which is stopped on [the] any highway or school driveway for the purpose of taking on or discharging children, [when approaching the same from any direction] and to remain stopped until all children are clear of the highway or school driveway and the bus is put in motion."

Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Katie Pavluchuk argued that the law clearly did not intend to require "having to stop the school bus. It's talking about this other vehicle coming towards the school bus. . . . The obvious intent of the statute is clear."

Clingan then pointed to Virginia Supreme Court case law, which says: "Courts are not permitted to add language to a statute nor are they 'permitted to accomplish the same result by judicial interpretation.' "

A 2005 state Supreme Court ruling written by Justice Barbara Keenan, now a federal appeals court judge, said that "we assume that the General Assembly's amendments to a statute are purposeful, rather than unnecessary."

Clingan then provided to Williams a grammatical analysis by E. Shelley Reid, an associate professor of English at George Mason University. Reid noted that the phrase "when approaching from any direction" is a nonrestrictive modifier and can be removed from the sentence. "As a result," Reid wrote, "the grammatical core of the first half of the sentence would read, 'A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails to stop any school bus. . . . ' This is a cohesive, grammatically correct sentence that conveys a clear if not very reasonable meaning."

Williams then wondered aloud: "I don't know if there's some latitude" in divining the law's intent. "There probably isn't, because it's a criminal statute." And read literally, the judge said, he had to acquit Mendez.

The prosecution cannot appeal an acquittal.

Pavluchuk, who was simply handling the regular Thursday morning misdemeanor appeals docket, did not come prepared with case law and professorial analysis, as Clingan did. But her boss, Fairfax Commonwealth's Attorney Raymond F. Morrogh, was ready when asked about it this week.

"I respectfully disagree with the decision," Morrogh said. He cited a U.S. Supreme Court case from 1892 that said, "If a literal construction of the words of a statute be absurd, the act must be so construed as to avoid the absurdity."

He also said a full reading of the law makes its intention clear and pointed to a Virginia Supreme Court case that said that "the plain, obvious, and rational meaning of a statute is always to be preferred to any curious, narrow, or strained construction." The court also wrote, "We must assume the legislature did not intend to do a vain and useless thing."

And then the Fairfax prosecutor tossed in his own analysis of the Mendez case, through a Japanese proverb: "Only lawyers and painters can turn white to black."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2010 10:55PM by Mofo.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: ThePackLeader ()
Date: November 30, 2010 11:49PM

I hate it when an actual offender gets away with shit. Fuck that dumbass beaner.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: pw ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:10AM

yeah, just like the jackass/illegal who didn't stop the opposite direction nuns, oh wait, he did and killed two of them....

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: ITRADE ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:12AM

This guy is a real fucking winner.

"MENDEZ ","JOHN "," ","040"," 13811","GREENWOOD ","DR","WOODBRIDGE ","VA","01/31/2005","FAIL TO REPORT OL CHG/ADDRESS-DMV "
"MENDEZ ","JOHN "," ","040"," 13811","GREENWOOD ","DR","WOODBRIDGE ","VA","01/31/2005","TINTED WINDOWS "
"MENDEZ ","JOHN ","G","044"," 13811","GREENWOOD ","DR","WOODBRIDGE ","VA","07/20/2009","40-44MPH/25MPH ZONE "
"MENDEZ ","JOHN ","G","044"," 13811","GREENWOOD ","DR","WOODBRIDGE ","VA","07/20/2009","DRINKING WHILE DRIVING

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: hm ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:15AM

i was going to say:

even if it did have the word "at", what's to stop you from stopping at the bus, and then proceeding through the sign/light? it just says you have to stop, not that you have to remain stopped for the entire time the sign is out/light is on.

but then i looked it up and there is more that covers this:

...to remain stopped until all the persons are clear of the highway, private road or school driveway and the bus is put in motion...

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-859

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 12:20AM

Mendez probably wasn't looking at any jail time. Still, he had received the ticket in the middle of a ridiculously bad morning - his tools were stolen and he was laid off his job before he passed the bus - and was thrilled by the judge's ruling, coming after argument from his attorney, Eric E. Clingan.

LOOK AT THESE PATHETIC SORRY ASS EXCUSES !

Eric E Clingan should be disbared and so should the judge. This sorry ass lawyer tried exploiting a wording dicrepancy and the judge allowed him to.

EVEN WITHOUT 'AT' IT STILL READS JUST FINE AND IS CLEAR.

> "A person is guilty of reckless driving WHO fails to STOP, WHEN approaching
> from any direction, any school bus which is stopped on any highway, private
> road or school driveway for the purpose of taking on or discharging children."

FAILS TO *STOP*

HE FAILED

***WHEN?

WHEN APPRAOCHING A SCHOOL BUS THAT IS *STOPPED* FOR THE PURPOSE ... blah blah fucking blah

DISBAR THE JUDGE AND THE GODDAMNED ATTORNEY.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: ...in the 22039 ()
Date: December 01, 2010 07:44AM

I am not a liberal in any way.

That out of the way, I applaud the dismissal of this charge due to the improper wording of the law.

I agree, a law is deliberately written and when written improperly, it is not the fault of the public.

Of course, it should - and will be fixed this coming year. In the meantime, General R/D could be written if the Police in VA find someone passing a stopped school bus - you can bet law enforcement has been briefed on how to handle until the "law" is fixed...

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: i 1 2 ½ 6 ()
Date: December 01, 2010 07:53AM

Stupid Liberal Idiot Judge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mendez probably wasn't looking at any jail time.
> Still, he had received the ticket in the middle of
> a ridiculously bad morning - his tools were stolen
> and he was laid off his job before he passed the
> bus - and was thrilled by the judge's ruling,
> coming after argument from his attorney, Eric E.
> Clingan.
>
> LOOK AT THESE PATHETIC SORRY ASS EXCUSES !
>
> Eric E Clingan should be disbared and so should
> the judge. This sorry ass lawyer tried exploiting
> a wording dicrepancy and the judge allowed him to.
>
>
> EVEN WITHOUT 'AT' IT STILL READS JUST FINE AND IS
> CLEAR.
>
> > "A person is guilty of reckless driving WHO
> fails to STOP, WHEN approaching
> > from any direction, any school bus which is
> stopped on any highway, private
> > road or school driveway for the purpose of
> taking on or discharging children."
>
> FAILS TO *STOP*
>
> HE FAILED
>
> ***WHEN?
>
> WHEN APPRAOCHING A SCHOOL BUS THAT IS *STOPPED*
> FOR THE PURPOSE ... blah blah fucking blah
>
> DISBAR THE JUDGE AND THE GODDAMNED ATTORNEY.


You're fucking dumb.

"A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails to stop, when approaching from any direction, any school bus which is stopped on any highway, private road or school driveway for the purpose of taking on or discharging children."

You're right, it still reads clear; it says if you fail to stop any school bus you'll get in trouble. Now, if you add the word "at" after "stop" or before "any", it makes perfect sense.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: judge judy ()
Date: December 01, 2010 07:58AM

...in the 22039 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not a liberal in any way.
>
> That out of the way, I applaud the dismissal of
> this charge due to the improper wording of the
> law.
>
> I agree, a law is deliberately written and when
> written improperly, it is not the fault of the
> public.
>
> Of course, it should - and will be fixed this
> coming year. In the meantime, General R/D could be
> written if the Police in VA find someone passing a
> stopped school bus - you can bet law enforcement
> has been briefed on how to handle until the "law"
> is fixed...


So in other words, its ok if some kids get killed or maimed in the meantime because some other pencil necked attornies at the state legislature improperly did their jobs. You ARE a liberal that cant admit it....fuck you

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: justsayin ()
Date: December 01, 2010 07:59AM

...in the 22039 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That out of the way, I applaud the dismissal of
> this charge due to the improper wording of the
> law.
>
> I agree, a law is deliberately written and when
> written improperly, it is not the fault of the
> public.

+1, it is bad enough that legislators don't read laws they vote on. It serves the system right and teaches us that words have meaning, and laws are made of words. They should be written properly, read properly, and enforced properly. This one goes to the grammar cops, and props to that defense lawyer for doing his job and offering to do it for free.

I don't think this will cause anyone to blow by school buses. I doubt the word will get around, and I doubt it will stop police from writing tickets for it.

----------------------------------------

"She looks pretty good for 12, admit it." - WingNut, 04/24/2012

"I'm racist too. So what?" - Ellipsis 9/16/2011

"If you only knew who I was, and what I was working to do you would...have the decency to tell me I hated my nation and the way of life. I may not agree with...the government...I hate the "government"......" - Firrat 9/1/10

"there seems to be a queer...why? To try and further demean a defeated... dumb Tea party... I think we need more... far left folks on a regular basis - Louis Farakhan, Jesse Jackson...Al Sharpton" - Registered Voter, 8/19/2011

"If your computer is running slow, or you have any other problems, email me at with the problem and i am willing to fix it, for a price of course" - Taylor, spamming FFU on 04/12/2006. "N****rs as slaves again? I think so..." - Taylor, 09/20/2009




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2010 07:59AM by justsayin.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Twilight Zone ()
Date: December 01, 2010 08:03AM

When a kid gets hit and there are no charges, will the judge be sleeping well at night?

Whatever happened to common sense in this world? This is idiocy.

But what the heck---public officials all seem to be in lunacy mode these days.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: justsayin ()
Date: December 01, 2010 08:03AM

judge judy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So in other words, its ok if some kids get killed
> or maimed in the meantime because some other
> pencil necked attornies at the state legislature
> improperly did their jobs. You ARE a liberal that
> cant admit it....fuck you

It isn't okay of people get killed, but it is okay for a citizen to be acquitted of charges that are improperly applied. God help us all if you get YOUR way and judges can just add shit to laws, saying the "intent was obvious." Go live with Hugo Chavez if you like that style of government. I'll stick with this one, where it is still possible for judges to respect laws as they are written, and legislators can fix it.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Hebrew Hammer ()
Date: December 01, 2010 08:16AM

Twilight Zone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When a kid gets hit and there are no charges, will
> the judge be sleeping well at night?
>
> Whatever happened to common sense in this world?
> This is idiocy.
>
> But what the heck---public officials all seem to
> be in lunacy mode these days.

Judges release killers and wife beaters and child molesters all the time because of a technicality, improperly collected evidence, or the wrong wording in an affadavit. How is this supposed to be any different?

Besides, unless it's an internal neighbrorhood road, children are let off on the side of the road that they live on, and do not cross the street.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: ...in the 22039 ()
Date: December 01, 2010 08:38AM

judge judy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...in the 22039 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am not a liberal in any way.
> >
> > That out of the way, I applaud the dismissal of
> > this charge due to the improper wording of the
> > law.
> >
> > I agree, a law is deliberately written and when
> > written improperly, it is not the fault of the
> > public.
> >
> > Of course, it should - and will be fixed this
> > coming year. In the meantime, General R/D could
> be
> > written if the Police in VA find someone passing
> a
> > stopped school bus - you can bet law
> enforcement
> > has been briefed on how to handle until the
> "law"
> > is fixed...
>
>
> So in other words, its ok if some kids get killed
> or maimed in the meantime because some other
> pencil necked attornies at the state legislature
> improperly did their jobs. You ARE a liberal that
> cant admit it....fuck you

Is that your major argument? and then to cuss me out? Really??

As I stated, General Reckless Driving could be written as a ticket in lieu of the "schoolbus" charge which was improperly written.

If cussing me out at the failure of some legislator makes you feel better, great. It still does not make you right - and does not change the fact a R/D or other serious charge could not be applied to passing a bus loading/off loading children.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: good move ()
Date: December 01, 2010 08:47AM

I applaud the (appeals) judge for getting this right - laws are as "on the book", not as "how we want them". It HAS to be that way. Until January (or whenever) we can assume the various police forces that cite under this law will be told to cite some other more-valid law like reckless driving, child endangerment (of some type), etc.

The attorney is one I would want for a defense, for sure - he didn't just assume something about the law, he read it intimately - shockingly so since it's (obviously) easy to miss such a "small" mistake. Well done!

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: malloy ()
Date: December 01, 2010 08:49AM

justsayin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> judge judy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So in other words, its ok if some kids get
> killed
> > or maimed in the meantime because some other
> > pencil necked attornies at the state
> legislature
> > improperly did their jobs. You ARE a liberal
> that
> > cant admit it....fuck you
>
> It isn't okay of people get killed, but it is okay
> for a citizen to be acquitted of charges that are
> improperly applied. God help us all if you get
> YOUR way and judges can just add shit to laws,
> saying the "intent was obvious." Go live with
> Hugo Chavez if you like that style of government.
> I'll stick with this one, where it is still
> possible for judges to respect laws as they are
> written, and legislators can fix it.



"Intent was obvious" equates to COMMON SENSE.If you have ever left the basement and watched some trials, we are very very far from becoming a Chavez style of govt. I dont think too many people in Fairfax county Courts have gone to jail or be convicted un neccessarily. Plenty of guilty people have walked though with overwhelming evidence against them because of some of the most liberal judges on the east coast. This douchbag and his shitbag "get my name in papers" attorney just helped to perpetuate the mockery of the criminal justice system in this state. I wonder how many pro bono case he takes for people who really need help.not many I would guess. This case ranks with the tool who got off years ago from a reckless driving charge because of a PMS rampage.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: justsayin ()
Date: December 01, 2010 08:54AM

malloy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Intent was obvious" equates to COMMON SENSE.

Wrong.

> I dont think too many people
> in Fairfax county Courts have gone to jail or be
> convicted un neccessarily.

Correct, as is the case here.


> "get my name in papers" attorney just
> helped to perpetuate the mockery of the criminal
> justice system in this state.

Jealous? You sound like someone who just paid their court fee for this charge and are bitter you didn't get let off for it. Is that really the best way to express your anger? Really?

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: malloy ()
Date: December 01, 2010 09:01AM

No ,never had a ticket but have seen a child run over and killed by a car,, yes I would say I can express my anger, remember Hugo is not in charge yet. Maybe if have kids or lose one you might understand, if someone has to explain it, you probably wouldnt get it anyway

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 09:01AM

: i 1 2 ½ 6 wrote :

>You're right, it still reads clear; it says if
>you fail to stop any school bus you'll get in >trouble. Now, if you add the word "at" after >"stop" or before "any", it makes perfect sense.

SORRY YOU ARE READING IT HOW YOU *WANT* TO
READ IT AND *NOT* READING WHAT IT SAYS.

AGAIN :

"A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails to stop,"

GOT THIS MUCH? HE FAILED TO STOP.

***FAIL TO STOP *WHEN* ???

"when approaching [from any direction],
any school bus which is stopped on any highway, private road or school driveway for the purpose of taking on or discharging children."

UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ YET, DUMBASS?

AGAIN, IT READS QUITE CLEAR AND BOTH THE
JUDGE AND THE SHITTY LAWYER Eric E. Clingan SHOULD BE DISBARED.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Teh King ()
Date: December 01, 2010 09:02AM

malloy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Intent was obvious" equates to COMMON SENSE.If
> you have ever left the basement and watched some
> trials, we are very very far from becoming a
> Chavez style of govt. I dont think too many people
> in Fairfax county Courts have gone to jail or be
> convicted un neccessarily. Plenty of guilty people
> have walked though with overwhelming evidence
> against them because of some of the most liberal
> judges on the east coast. This douchbag and his
> shitbag "get my name in papers" attorney just
> helped to perpetuate the mockery of the criminal
> justice system in this state. I wonder how many
> pro bono case he takes for people who really need
> help.not many I would guess. This case ranks with
> the tool who got off years ago from a reckless
> driving charge because of a PMS rampage.

It still does not change the fact that the law is poorly written and needs to be rewritten. The entire concept that the interpretation of a law is to be determined by the text of the written law itself and not some ambiguous intent, has been around for well over a hundred years. How the law is applied to a given situation is subject to interpretation but the writing of the law is not. It is not a new concept and it is one that is taught in the first year of law school.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 09:12AM

Yeah yeah what ever.

As I pointed out once again, there is NOTHING wrong with what is on the books now.

Eric E. Clingan = SHITTY Lawyer
Judge = MORON

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: ...in the 22039 ()
Date: December 01, 2010 09:23AM

>
> It still does not change the fact that the law is
> poorly written and needs to be rewritten. The
> entire concept that the interpretation of a law is
> to be determined by the text of the written law
> itself and not some ambiguous intent, has been
> around for well over a hundred years. How the law
> is applied to a given situation is subject to
> interpretation but the writing of the law is not.
> It is not a new concept and it is one that is
> taught in the first year of law school.


True, but some on this site don't want the fact of the matter speak for itself.

A poorly written law cannot be used as a broad brush to paint guilt - laws MUST be specific.

Also, as a conservative adult and parent of two kids who take the bus to school, I stand by my position.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 09:34AM

"True, but some on this site don't want the fact of the matter speak for itself."

REALLY? Well let's let it speak for itself AGAIN ;

> "A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails to STOP,"

WHO WHAT??? ---->> FAILS TO *STOP*.

***FAIL TO STOP *WHEN* ???

> "WHEN approaching [from any direction],
> any school bus which is stopped on any highway,
> private road or school driveway for the purpose of
> taking on or discharging children."

THE FACTS OF THE MATTER HAVE SPOKEN, AND ARE QUITE CLEAR.

Eric E. Clingan = SHITTY LAWYER
Judge = MORON

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Teh King ()
Date: December 01, 2010 09:39AM

Eric E. Clingan = Shitty Lawyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah yeah what ever.
>
> As I pointed out once again, there is NOTHING
> wrong with what is on the books now.
>
> Eric E. Clingan = SHITTY Lawyer
> Judge = MORON

Yeah, umm, actually there is something wrong with what is on the books and that fact was upheld by a supreme court. I guarantee the judge presiding over this particular case has better comprehension and mastery of the English language than you do. The complete failure of the written law has been pointed out to you and yet you still don't get it.

If the existing law on the books is allowed to stand, an even greater travesty of justice could and probably will occur. Instead of defending ignorance and stupidity, take the "glass half full" view of things and realize that this technicality can be addressed before another douche bag passes a school bus, only the next time causing the death of a child.

Oh nevermind, you probably advocate making shit up as you go along, Sarah Palin style, eh?

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: good move ()
Date: December 01, 2010 09:42AM

English is sometime ambiguous, however the defense wetn the extra step and got an expert on English to comment on this sentence.For some reason you are ignoring that.

Here's what the sentence says:

"A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails to STOP any school bus..."

Well...that's the law. And the defendant didn't violate it.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: EX PG CNTY ()
Date: December 01, 2010 09:55AM

It's actually a conservative reading of the law. Liberals are the ones that want to "interpret" the meaning of laws after the fact. The unfortunate consequence of a poorly written law is that it must be read literally.

Cling-on took on this case for free? Bullshit. He knew this would hit the press and he would get his name in lights. I would bet good money he is the one that alerted the press in the first place.

He probably wants a job with Casa de Maryland so he can free all beaners.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 09:58AM

Feel free to continue being ignorant.

FACTS

*I* simply copy and pasted text, and then commented on what was written.

*YOU* are wrong and conrinually OMIT a HUGE portion of the sentence, in effect, chopping it up into word soup so that you can read to yourself that which you want to hear.

WHY are you omitting words?

Example :

Anon-FAGGOT user 'good move' wrote :

> "A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails to STOP any school bus..."

AGAIN, NO NEED TO OMIT WORDS, JUST READ WHAT'S THERE!

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 10:03AM

Let's "let the facts of the matter speak for itself" AGAIN ;

> "A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails to STOP,"

WHO WHAT??? ---->> FAILS TO *STOP*.

***FAIL TO STOP *WHEN* ???

> "WHEN approaching [from any direction],
> any school bus which is stopped on any highway,
> private road or school driveway for the purpose of
> taking on or discharging children."

THE FACTS OF THE MATTER HAVE SPOKEN, AND ARE QUITE CLEAR.

Eric E. Clingan = SHITTY LAWYER
Judge = MORON

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: hm ()
Date: December 01, 2010 10:41AM

what i don't understand is how the second part of the sentence didn't apply:

A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails to stop ... any school bus which is stopped on any highway ... for the purpose of taking on or discharging children... and to remain stopped until all the persons are clear of the highway ... and the bus is put in motion.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: ...in the 22039 ()
Date: December 01, 2010 10:50AM

hm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what i don't understand is how the second part of
> the sentence didn't apply:
>
> A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails
> to stop ... any school bus which is stopped on any
> highway ... for the purpose of taking on or
> discharging children... and to remain stopped
> until all the persons are clear of the highway ...
> and the bus is put in motion.


It does not apply to anything except the bus originally mentioned in the first part -

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: hm ()
Date: December 01, 2010 10:53AM

...in the 22039 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hm Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > what i don't understand is how the second part
> of
> > the sentence didn't apply:
> >
> > A person is guilty of reckless driving who
> fails
> > to stop ... any school bus which is stopped on
> any
> > highway ... for the purpose of taking on or
> > discharging children... and to remain stopped
> > until all the persons are clear of the highway
> ...
> > and the bus is put in motion.
>
>
> It does not apply to anything except the bus
> originally mentioned in the first part -


no, it's "fails to stop and school bus which is stopped.." and "fails to remain stopped until all the persons..."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: ProVallone ()
Date: December 01, 2010 11:23AM

As a layman, the judges decision just seems like a bullshit play on words. Common sense would indicate a need to stop vehicles when a school bus is loading and unloading. Scores of tragic accidents prove this to be true.
You can't depend on people being careful , they're too self centered, so there must be laws.
I hope this douche is proud he got away with it, and that he only kills or maims himself , and not some poor kid , as he continues to endanger society with
his arrogent , dangerous behavior.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Bill N ()
Date: December 01, 2010 11:50AM

It is very simple folks. The criminal defense attorney did his job. He read the law and argued that what his client was accused of doing did not violate the statute. The judge also did his job. He read the statute, applied it to the facts of the case and determined that what the defendant was alleged to have done did not violate the statute. For the judge to have done otherwise would have made him as guilty of judicial activism as any of the "liberal judges" that so many complain about.

hm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what i don't understand is how the second part of
> the sentence didn't apply:
>
> A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails
> to stop ... any school bus which is stopped on any
> highway ... for the purpose of taking on or
> discharging children... and to remain stopped
> until all the persons are clear of the highway ...
> and the bus is put in motion.

An intelligent question. Clearly IF the prosecutor was on her toes this was something that could have been argued. The problem I see is that language imposes an obligation on the Defenddant to remain stopped until the children have cleared the highway and the bus has moved on. Since it uses the words "remain stopped" it does not apply to someone who is in motion. Since most of the school bus passing violations involve vehicles that fail to stop rather than vehicles that stop and then start moving tto early, my guess is that part of the statute won't catch too many people.

Of course if the prosecutor HAD been on her toes they might have been able to salvage a conviction on other grounds. Section 46.2-859 makes passing a school bus reckless driving, but reckless is also defined in section 46.2-852 as driving "in a manner so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of any person". Certainly there is an argument that passing a school bus loading children could meet that definition alone. If a person is charged with reckless but the culpibility is slight, the person can be found guilty of the lesser offense of improper driving. Perhaps this would have required that the charge be amended before the trial and that the defense be given a continuance. SO WHAT. The real question here is why wasn't the prosecutor on her toes on this one. This was the second trial on this charge. The defendant had raised the argument in the first trial in General District Court.

So rather than being pissed at the defense lawyer and the judge for doing EXACTLY what they are supposed to do, why aren't people pissed off at the prosecutors who did not do their job.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 11:53AM

> "Eric [shitty Lawyer] did his homework," Mendez [shitty driving spic] said.
> "He did a lot of work and investigation into the statutes. . .

BULLSHIT !

> [Mendez-spic]This is the greatest moment ever."

THIS FAGGOT SPIC IS *PROUD* HE BROKE THE LAW AND GOT AWAY WITH IT.

> "Clingan said he was not aware of the missing word in the statute
> until Mendez came into his office in June, shortly after he was
> ticketed on Hooes Road in the Springfield area. He said he took
> a look at the law, and "it just sort of jumped off the page at me."
> Clingan said Mendez couldn't afford his fee, so he agreed to
> take the case for free.

I THINK THE anon-USER 'EX PG COUNTY' HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.

'EX PG COUNTY' wrote :

> "He probably wants a job with Casa de Maryland so
> he can free all beaners."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: good move ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:00PM

I think the police officer who wrote the citation could not have known that the law was broken and cited the defendant with the most obvious and appropriate violation. Once that has been done - and assuming no one is aware that a law that has been on the books for =40= years is broken - the prosecution did the right thing by prosecuting based off what the defendant was accused of. According to the original article, the prosecutor for this case was handling a bunch of (almost boilerplate style) prosecutions and wasn't prepared to argue otherwise. The defendant's lawyer did a superlative job of not only pointing out the broken law, but being prepared to answer the obvious objections to be raised by the prosecution (and maybe by the judge).

I want prosecutors to continue to prosecute based on what a defendant has been charged with and I want judges to continue to uphold the law as written.

As noted before, we should (hopefully) assume that all police officers in the state have been told in no uncertain terms that they are to cite drivers who pass stopped blinking-red-light school buses for reckless driving or child endangerment or whatever until the broken law is fixed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 12:02PM

Haha, STUPID SPICS would need to argue over a language discrepancy
because they are non-English talking ass-backwards retards.

Maybe this filthy dick eating spic 'Mendez' wouldn't be so happy
about the ruling if he came home to find out his child was mowed
down by some other ignorant spic who scoffed at the law also.

Hopefully it would have been some drunkass white guy from russia who
has no buisiness living in our country.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: jimW ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:04PM

i believe the solution is:
the comma after "stop" needs to be moved to after "approaching" like this:

"A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails to stop when approaching, from any direction, any school bus which is stopped on any highway, private road or school driveway for the purpose of taking on or discharging children."

it's all about what words answer what questions:

'stop' when/where/how/why?: "when approaching"
'when approaching' what/who?: "any school bus.."


simply adding "at" will not clear this up.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: LAW 101 ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:05PM

There is NO 'broken law' you stupid FAGGOT.

Just a stupid law breaking spic.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 12:12PM

ONE MORE TIME?
OKAY, IF YOU INSIST :

> "A person is guilty of reckless driving WHO fails to STOP,"

Who WHAT??? ---->> FAILS to *STOP*.

***FAIL to STOP *WHEN* ???

> "WHEN approaching [from any direction],

When *APPROACHING* WHAT?

> any school bus which is stopped on any highway,
> private road or school driveway for the purpose of
> taking on or discharging children."

It's QUITE CLEAR.

*NO* broken law here, JUST a LAW BREAKING spic.

Eric E. Clingan = SHITTY LAWYER
Judge = MORON

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: The Lawyer ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:14PM

You MIGHT be correct, but the [Brackets] you inserted do NOT appear in the law as written. Sheeesh!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Teh King ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:34PM

The Lawyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You MIGHT be correct, but the you inserted do NOT
> appear in the law as written. Sheeesh!

Unfortunately for him, he's not.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Bill N ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:42PM

Clearly there is a simple solution to this problem. We pass a law saying:

"Any person who is descended from a person who came to the United States from a country located south of Rio Grande River and whose skin is darker than Ricardo Montalban is guilty of whatever crime the police choose to charge him or her with."

This way we do not have to worry about such legal niceties as whether the person acts violated the law or whether there is evidence of such violation. Of course poor Tatoo is going away for a long time.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Joe Dokes ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:46PM

This is beyond stupid. How did this moron make it to the bench? If any children are maimed or killed because of this ruling, the judge should be charged as an accessory before the fact of malicious wounding, vehicular manslaughter, etc.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 12:53PM

Unfortunately the EXACT opposite of that law is happening.

Remember the ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION problem?
How about all those SPICS who HIT and KILL people with their
ILLEGAL CARS who get released from the scene or charges dropped
altogether at a later date?

How unfair is THAT ?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: anaa ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:53PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: hm ()
Date: December 01, 2010 12:57PM

Bill N Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> An intelligent question. Clearly IF the
> prosecutor was on her toes this was something that
> could have been argued. The problem I see is that
> language imposes an obligation on the Defenddant
> to remain stopped until the children have cleared
> the highway and the bus has moved on. Since it
> uses the words "remain stopped" it does not apply
> to someone who is in motion.

ah-ha, good point!


jimW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i believe the solution is:
> the comma after "stop" needs to be moved to after
> "approaching" like this:
>
> "A person is guilty of reckless driving who fails
> to stop when approaching, from any direction, any
> school bus which is stopped on any highway,
> private road or school driveway for the purpose of
> taking on or discharging children."
>
> it's all about what words answer what questions:
>
> 'stop' when/where/how/why?: "when approaching"
> 'when approaching' what/who?: "any school bus.."
>
>
> simply adding "at" will not clear this up.


i was thinking the same thing. +1

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: FU - Version 2.0 ()
Date: December 01, 2010 01:13PM

vers. 2.0

> "A person is guilty of reckless driving WHO fails to STOP,"

Who ??? ---->> who FAILS to *STOP*.

***FAIL to STOP ???

> "WHEN approaching from any direction,"

When *APPROACHING* ?

> "*ANY SCHOOL BUS* which is stopped on any highway,
> private road or school driveway for the purpose of
> taking on or discharging children."

UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ YET ?


Eric E. Clingan = SHITTY LAWYER
Judge = MORON

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: hm ()
Date: December 01, 2010 01:17PM

FU - Version 2.0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> vers. 2.0
>
> > "A person is guilty of reckless driving WHO
> fails to STOP,"
>
> Who ??? ---->> who FAILS to *STOP*.
>
> ***FAIL to STOP ???
>
> > "WHEN approaching from any direction,"
>
> When *APPROACHING* ?
>
> > "*ANY SCHOOL BUS* which is stopped on any
> highway,
> > private road or school driveway for the purpose
> of
> > taking on or discharging children."
>
> UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ YET ?
>
>
> Eric E. Clingan = SHITTY LAWYER
> Judge = MORON


seriously, will you stfu already? you've posted the same god damn thing 14 times now.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: FU Version 3.0 ()
Date: December 01, 2010 01:19PM

vers. 3.0

> "A person is guilty of reckless driving WHO fails to STOP,"

***Who {WHAT}??? ---->> who FAILS to *STOP*.

***FAIL to STOP {WHEN}???

> "WHEN approaching from any direction,"

***When APPROACHING {WHAT}?

> "*ANY SCHOOL BUS* which is stopped on any highway,
> private road or school driveway for the purpose of
> taking on or discharging children."

UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ YET ?


Eric E. Clingan = SHITTY LAWYER
Judge = MORON

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: You Lose ()
Date: December 01, 2010 01:25PM

I'm NOT going to stop posting it till someone either STFU about
the issue altogether, or shows me how my logic is incorrect.

If you STILL don't understand YOU are WRONG @ this point,
then sadly there is NO helping you.

You're simply just too DUMB.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: LAST CALL ()
Date: December 01, 2010 01:35PM

> "A person is guilty of reckless driving WHO fails to STOP,
> WHEN approaching from any direction,"

LEAVE OFF THE LAST HALF OF THE SENTENCE, AND IT IS PATHETICALLY
OBVIOUS THAT YOU MUST STOP WHEN APPROACHING SOMETHING.

THAT SOMETHING COULD BE WHEN APPROACHING A 4 WAY INTERSECTION
OR WHAT EVER YOU WANT IT TO BE.

BUT WHAT EVER *IT* IS, YOU ARE DRIVING RECKLESSLY IF YOU APPROACH ONE
WITHOUT STOPPING.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: good move ()
Date: December 01, 2010 01:41PM

>>> "...grammatical analysis by E. Shelley Reid, an associate professor of
>>> English at George Mason University. Reid noted that the phrase "when
>>> approaching from any direction" is a nonrestrictive modifier and can be
>>> removed from the sentence. "As a result," Reid wrote, "the grammatical
>>> core of the first half of the sentence would read, 'A person is guilty of
>>> reckless driving who fails to stop any school bus. . . . ' This is a cohesive,
>>> grammatically correct sentence that conveys a clear if not very reasonable
>>> meaning..."

Like it or not.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: hm ()
Date: December 01, 2010 01:56PM

You Lose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm NOT going to stop posting it till someone
> either STFU about
> the issue altogether, or shows me how my logic is
> incorrect.
>
> If you STILL don't understand YOU are WRONG @ this
> point,
> then sadly there is NO helping you.
>
> You're simply just too DUMB.


it's not your logic, it's your english. why you're wrong is explained in the article. the "when approaching from any direction" part of the sentence, since it is surrounded by commas, can be removed completely and the rest of the sentence is what is being evaluated. maybe they need to post the article 14 times stating the exact same thing and you'd understand then.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Teh King ()
Date: December 01, 2010 02:09PM

As much as you may hate this defendant and his lawyer, they make a point that all the tea baggers in the audience should cheer:

"My point wasn't in any way to expose children to danger on the streets," Clingan told NBC Washington's Julie Carey on Tuesday. "My point was to expose Virginians to what happens when you don't pay close attention to what lawmakers are doing. For 40 years, people have been ticketed wrongly. And who knows what's the next law that may have a similar error?"

This guy skated on a technicality and fortunately no one was hurt. If they don't fix this shitty law, someone could commit manslaughter and get away with it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: jimW ()
Date: December 01, 2010 02:13PM

hm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You Lose Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm NOT going to stop posting it till someone
> > either STFU about
> > the issue altogether, or shows me how my logic
> is
> > incorrect.
> >
> > If you STILL don't understand YOU are WRONG @
> this
> > point,
> > then sadly there is NO helping you.
> >
> > You're simply just too DUMB.
>
>
> it's not your logic, it's your english. why
> you're wrong is explained in the article. the
> "when approaching from any direction" part of the
> sentence, since it is surrounded by commas, can be
> removed completely and the rest of the sentence is
> what is being evaluated. maybe they need to post
> the article 14 times stating the exact same thing
> and you'd understand then.

so you're saying to can remove parts of the law in order to make a case/defense?
THAT is moronic and disgraceful. leave America! now! go live somewhere else where there are no laws about stopping at a school bus...

...but if you hit a kid you will be chased down, dragged from your car, beaten and burned alive and later posted on youtube. this the defendant just doesn't want to lose his license, and the lawyer is just a pansy that hasn't been able to get his name in the newspaper yet. oh and the grammar professor at GMU....are you serious? remove parts of the law until it sings in your ears? give me a break.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: good move ()
Date: December 01, 2010 02:21PM

> ...remove parts of the law until it sings in your ears? give me a break.

Indeed - instead we should add words to the written law until it sings in our ears.

Oh yeah, THAT'S gonna fly!

BTW - manslaughter is still a violation, as is endangering children (as is failure to keep right!).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: YOU = RETARDED ()
Date: December 01, 2010 02:27PM

it's not your logic, it's your english.

YOU ARE WRONG AND CAN'T PROVE YOUR ASSERTIONS

>. why you're wrong is explained in the article. the "when approaching from any direction" part of the sentence, since it is surrounded by commas, can be removed completely

WHAT? YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO REMOVE ANYTHING.
THAT'S MY POINT. WITHOUT REMOVING ANYTHING IT STILL READS COHEARENTLY

> and the rest of the sentence is what is being evaluated.

THIS NOTION IS BONKERS AND YOU ARE STUPID.
WHERE IN THE LAW BOOKS DOES IT SAY WE CAN DISECT, SCRAMBLE, AND
PIECE LAWS BACK TOGETHER WHEN ATTEMPTING TO UNDERSTAND OR
INTERPRET THEIR MEANING?

> maybe they need to post the article 14 times stating the exact same thing and you'd understand then.

SO YET AGAIN YOU FAILED TO PROVE YOUR POINT LIKE A RETARD, BUT YET
YOU MADE THIS COMMENT LIKE YOUR SOME TYPE OF SMARTASS, HILARIOUS.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: hm ()
Date: December 01, 2010 02:46PM

jimW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hm Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You Lose Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I'm NOT going to stop posting it till someone
> > > either STFU about
> > > the issue altogether, or shows me how my
> logic
> > is
> > > incorrect.
> > >
> > > If you STILL don't understand YOU are WRONG @
> > this
> > > point,
> > > then sadly there is NO helping you.
> > >
> > > You're simply just too DUMB.
> >
> >
> > it's not your logic, it's your english. why
> > you're wrong is explained in the article. the
> > "when approaching from any direction" part of
> the
> > sentence, since it is surrounded by commas, can
> be
> > removed completely and the rest of the sentence
> is
> > what is being evaluated. maybe they need to
> post
> > the article 14 times stating the exact same
> thing
> > and you'd understand then.
>
> so you're saying to can remove parts of the law in
> order to make a case/defense?
> THAT is moronic and disgraceful. leave America!
> now! go live somewhere else where there are no
> laws about stopping at a school bus...
>
> ...but if you hit a kid you will be chased down,
> dragged from your car, beaten and burned alive and
> later posted on youtube. this the defendant just
> doesn't want to lose his license, and the lawyer
> is just a pansy that hasn't been able to get his
> name in the newspaper yet. oh and the grammar
> professor at GMU....are you serious? remove parts
> of the law until it sings in your ears? give me a
> break.


hahaha, what? you said yourself earlier in this thread that comma placement means everything and is the very problem with how it's written....

in the sentence "jimw, the backtracking nimrod, doesn't understand english," the phrase surrounded commas can once again be removed entirely, because it really has nothing to do with the actual content of the sentence. it's just clarifying information.

what if the law was written as:
A person, when approaching from any direction, is guilty of reckless driving who fails to stop any school bus which is stopped on any highway, private road or school driveway for the purpose of taking on or discharging children.

it's the exact same meaning.

you know what, fuck it. i give up.


and yea, "my" some type of incoHEARent smartass.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 02:49PM

You "Give Up" because YOU LOST.

Haha!

Did I spellz dat correctly, you LOSER?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: jimW ()
Date: December 01, 2010 02:50PM

hm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jimW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > hm Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > You Lose Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > I'm NOT going to stop posting it till
> someone
> > > > either STFU about
> > > > the issue altogether, or shows me how my
> > logic
> > > is
> > > > incorrect.
> > > >
> > > > If you STILL don't understand YOU are WRONG
> @
> > > this
> > > > point,
> > > > then sadly there is NO helping you.
> > > >
> > > > You're simply just too DUMB.
> > >
> > >
> > > it's not your logic, it's your english. why
> > > you're wrong is explained in the article.
> the
> > > "when approaching from any direction" part of
> > the
> > > sentence, since it is surrounded by commas,
> can
> > be
> > > removed completely and the rest of the
> sentence
> > is
> > > what is being evaluated. maybe they need to
> > post
> > > the article 14 times stating the exact same
> > thing
> > > and you'd understand then.
> >
> > so you're saying to can remove parts of the law
> in
> > order to make a case/defense?
> > THAT is moronic and disgraceful. leave America!
> > now! go live somewhere else where there are no
> > laws about stopping at a school bus...
> >
> > ...but if you hit a kid you will be chased
> down,
> > dragged from your car, beaten and burned alive
> and
> > later posted on youtube. this the defendant
> just
> > doesn't want to lose his license, and the
> lawyer
> > is just a pansy that hasn't been able to get
> his
> > name in the newspaper yet. oh and the grammar
> > professor at GMU....are you serious? remove
> parts
> > of the law until it sings in your ears? give me
> a
> > break.
>
>
> hahaha, what? you said yourself earlier in this
> thread that comma placement means everything and
> is the very problem with how it's written....
>
> in the sentence "jimw, the backtracking nimrod,
> doesn't understand english," the phrase surrounded
> commas can once again be removed entirely, because
> it really has nothing to do with the actual
> content of the sentence. it's just clarifying
> information.
>
> what if the law was written as:
> A person, when approaching from any direction, is
> guilty of reckless driving who fails to stop any
> school bus which is stopped on any highway,
> private road or school driveway for the purpose of
> taking on or discharging children.
>
> it's the exact same meaning.
>
> you know what, fuck it. i give up.
>
>
> and yea, "my" some type of incoHEARent smartass.

umm. i didn't say that grammar was the problem. never once. i said you could fix THEIR issue by moving the comma. (If fixing is indeed what needs to be done) BUT if you do. do it by amendment not by interpretation of the law by a tired old judge and a professor at GMU.

the real problem here is someone who broke the law came into contact with a cheap lawyer who wanted to win a case and make a name for himself. the law breaker went with it. i don't think i could have honestly carried myself through with that...guilty would have been my plea.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: hm ()
Date: December 01, 2010 02:51PM

why would you need to fix something that's not a problem then?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Teh King ()
Date: December 01, 2010 02:53PM

The only thing that makes me sadder than this thread is the realization that I have been arguing with the village idiot.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: READS JUST FINE ()
Date: December 01, 2010 02:55PM

> "why would you need to fix something that's not a problem then?"

EXACTLY.

IT READS JUST FINE *WITHOUT* MORONICALLY OMITTING ANY PART
IN AN ATTEMPT TO MAKE IT SAY SOMETHING THAT SUITS YOUR AGENDA.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 02:58PM

vers. 3.0

> "A person is guilty of reckless driving WHO fails to STOP,"

***Who {WHAT}??? ---->> who FAILS to *STOP*.

***FAIL to STOP {WHEN}???

> "WHEN approaching from any direction,"

***When APPROACHING {WHAT}?

> "*ANY SCHOOL BUS* which is stopped on any highway,
> private road or school driveway for the purpose of
> taking on or discharging children."

UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ YET ?
NO NEED TO OMIT ANY WORDS OR CHANGE SENTENCE STRUCTURE.


Eric E. Clingan = SHITTY LAWYER
Judge = MORON

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: jimW ()
Date: December 01, 2010 02:59PM

hm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> why would you need to fix something that's not a
> problem then?

we obviously have a problem. several of them. someone jacked up the commas or grammar or whatever when the law was written. it wasnt passed based on the bad grammar. it was passed based on the fact that cars would not be speeding past buses and mowing over kids.

the other problem is this douchebag that that knowingly broke a law later to find out that it was written wrongly in his favor took it and ran with it. instead of being noble.

what if a stop sign, that i stop at every day, loses a screw and swings upside down. may i now blaze past it knowing that i can get out of the ticket because it says "dOt5"

so one "fix" would be to correct the idiots that want to pick apart grammar from 40 yrs ago, which seems a little harder than fixing the law's grammar itself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2010 03:00PM by jimW.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: good move ()
Date: December 01, 2010 03:11PM

>>> "...Clingan then pointed to Virginia Supreme Court case law, which says:
>>> "Courts are not permitted to add language to a statute nor are they 'permitted
>>> to accomplish the same result by judicial interpretation.'..."

The legislature, in its infinite wisdom, decided to change the wording of the law. That resulted in a different law whether the braindead like it or not.

The solution is to put the correct wording back longterm and shortterm to make sure police cite a law that's valid for the same action on the part of the violator.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 03:39PM

The law was amendended, wether your brain dead ass wants to accept it or not,

AND

it reads just fine, wether your brain dead ass wants to accept it or not.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 01, 2010 03:47PM

Clingan said :

> "I do believe there are judges who have taken people's licenses
> away for passing a school bus,"

AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

Clingan said.
> "I hope, as much as anybody else, they'll fix this."

THIS GUY SEEMS TO BE ADVOCATING THE PERMANENT REMOVAL OF THE LAW.
What a douche bag and piss-poor lawyer Eric E Clingan is.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Maclay ()
Date: December 01, 2010 08:20PM

It is funny to watch so many blame the judge or lawyer when the blame should be focused on the legislatures.

I gotta laugh at those that don't comprehend how a comma or commas can change the meaning of a sentenance not to mention missing prepositions.

While I agree with the intent, what matters is how the law is written.

It does not state where you are supposed to stop that would be the missing "at".

The individual got off not because of the lawyer or the judge, this is on the shoulders of those that wrote the laws.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: justsayin ()
Date: December 01, 2010 09:18PM

I agree, it is amazing how uneducated, ignorant (not sure what to call it) some are. I mean the ALL-CAPS post already tells you they are dummies, but even once taking the time to read what is said it is all word salad, just dumb.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 02, 2010 12:25AM

Speaking of DUMB 'justsayin'

-YOU didn't even know the difference between sociopathic and
psycopathic in the Tyson's Corner murdering granny thread.

Also, YOU have failed to refute my points, but yet I am the dumb one huh.

Interesting.

'Maclay' wrote :

> "gotta laugh at those that don't comprehend how a comma or commas can change the meaning of a sentenance

REALLY GIVE AN EXAMPLE, BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG

> "not to mention missing prepositions."

THE SENTENCE REMAINS COHERENT WITHOUT THE PREPOSITION "AT"

EXAMPLE :

Try reading it and omit the 'from any direction' and it is clear
WHEN you are required to STOP {WHEN approaching ANY SCHOOL BUS}

> "A person is guilty of reckless driving WHO fails to STOP,
> WHEN approaching [from any direction] ANY SCHOOL BUS*
> which is stopped on any highway, private road or school
> driveway for the purpose of taking on or discharging children."

THIS DEAD HORSE HAS BEEN THOROUGHLY BEATEN.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: whatsacomma ()
Date: December 02, 2010 07:09AM

the simplest easiest thing to ever post to a forum is "people are so dumb" "he he yeah, so retarded" "gosh, people don't know what they're talking about"

try actually making a point. like so many have already done.

they've beaten this to shit, and you refuse to read the posts.

excuse my lack of PhD in Grammatical homosexuality from the University of George Mason, but...

when you put a comma separated phrase in the middle of a sentence it can either be the type that gets taken out, like some have said here. OR the kind that you use to make a list. like so:

When we get to the store we need to find shovels, duct tape, rope, a hatchet with a sharp blade, and lime.

"a hatchet with a sharp blade" is a descriptor for what we need to find, just like "any school bus" helps identify what we are "approaching"

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: justsayin ()
Date: December 02, 2010 08:10AM

whatsacomma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the simplest easiest thing to ever post to a forum
> is "people are so dumb" "he he yeah, so retarded"
> "gosh, people don't know what they're talking
> about"

Dumb.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: hm ()
Date: December 02, 2010 08:48AM

justsayin = MORON Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Maclay' wrote :
>
> > "gotta laugh at those that don't comprehend how
> a comma or commas can change the meaning of a
> sentenance
>
> REALLY GIVE AN EXAMPLE, BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Teh King ()
Date: December 02, 2010 09:59AM

justsayin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dumb.

Are you starting to get that feeling I was referring to? This is like arguing with people who believe the earth is flat. Now the argument in this case has degraded to the point that it's about commas when the real issue with the legislation is the missing preposition "at" and the shitty legislative body that couldn't take the time to read what the fuck it was that they were voting into law.

We might as well just fucking write all of our laws in Latin or Swahili for as little importance as some folks place in the actual wording and GRAMMAR in the laws that govern us. These are the same dumb illiterate fucks that don't read or understand the contracts they sign and then cry like babies later that their getting fucked over by some bank or insurance company. "Well, I didn't *mean* to give away my life savings! They tricked me!", they cry.

I understand that these same folks are pissed off that the SPIRIT of the law has been violated in this case. Really, I'm not happy about it either. Fortunately there is one solution to this problem and that is to close the loop hole that was left behind by the incompetent legislative body that ratified the law back in 1970. Instead of wasting energy in this forum, why not write a stern and forceful letter to your senator and local delegate and demand that this law be corrected as the absolute first order of business when the General Assembly returns from recess in January? Or better yet, demand an emergency session.

Until you've at least done that, follow the words of Penn Jillette...
Attachments:
stfu.gif

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: jimW ()
Date: December 02, 2010 11:42AM

Teh King Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> justsayin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dumb.
>
> Are you starting to get that feeling I was
> referring to? This is like arguing with people who
> believe the earth is flat. Now the argument in
> this case has degraded to the point that it's
> about commas when the real issue with the
> legislation is the missing preposition "at" and
> the shitty legislative body that couldn't take the
> time to read what the fuck it was that they were
> voting into law.
>
> We might as well just fucking write all of our
> laws in Latin or Swahili for as little importance
> as some folks place in the actual wording and
> GRAMMAR in the laws that govern us. These are the
> same dumb illiterate fucks that don't read or
> understand the contracts they sign and then cry
> like babies later that their getting fucked over
> by some bank or insurance company. "Well, I didn't
> *mean* to give away my life savings! They tricked
> me!", they cry.
>
> I understand that these same folks are pissed off
> that the SPIRIT of the law has been violated in
> this case. Really, I'm not happy about it either.
> Fortunately there is one solution to this problem
> and that is to close the loop hole that was left
> behind by the incompetent legislative body that
> ratified the law back in 1970. Instead of wasting
> energy in this forum, why not write a stern and
> forceful letter to your senator and local delegate
> and demand that this law be corrected as the
> absolute first order of business when the General
> Assembly returns from recess in January? Or better
> yet, demand an emergency session.
>
> Until you've at least done that, follow the words
> of Penn Jillette...


"...stop at any bus...."

you could throw technicalities at that all day long brother.
"i stopped at the bus, then i went, what's the problem? the law doesn't say stop, and stay stopped"

what does "stop at any bus" really mean? could I see a bus discharging children, and drive across town and stop at a different bus??? it doesn't say "stop at THAT bus"

I'm sure you could find countless laws that are grammatically flawed.

that's an even better argument. way better than the lawyer who claims his client in his fit of stress and rage thought that he was suppose to "stop any bus" when he put kids lives as risk.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Maclay ()
Date: December 02, 2010 01:17PM

jimW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teh King Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > justsayin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Dumb.
> >
> > Are you starting to get that feeling I was
> > referring to? This is like arguing with people
> who
> > believe the earth is flat. Now the argument in
> > this case has degraded to the point that it's
> > about commas when the real issue with the
> > legislation is the missing preposition "at" and
> > the shitty legislative body that couldn't take
> the
> > time to read what the fuck it was that they
> were
> > voting into law.
> >
> > We might as well just fucking write all of our
> > laws in Latin or Swahili for as little
> importance
> > as some folks place in the actual wording and
> > GRAMMAR in the laws that govern us. These are
> the
> > same dumb illiterate fucks that don't read or
> > understand the contracts they sign and then cry
> > like babies later that their getting fucked
> over
> > by some bank or insurance company. "Well, I
> didn't
> > *mean* to give away my life savings! They
> tricked
> > me!", they cry.
> >
> > I understand that these same folks are pissed
> off
> > that the SPIRIT of the law has been violated in
> > this case. Really, I'm not happy about it
> either.
> > Fortunately there is one solution to this
> problem
> > and that is to close the loop hole that was
> left
> > behind by the incompetent legislative body that
> > ratified the law back in 1970. Instead of
> wasting
> > energy in this forum, why not write a stern and
> > forceful letter to your senator and local
> delegate
> > and demand that this law be corrected as the
> > absolute first order of business when the
> General
> > Assembly returns from recess in January? Or
> better
> > yet, demand an emergency session.
> >
> > Until you've at least done that, follow the
> words
> > of Penn Jillette...
>
>
> "...stop at any bus...."
>
> you could throw technicalities at that all day
> long brother.
> "i stopped at the bus, then i went, what's the
> problem? the law doesn't say stop, and stay
> stopped"
>
> what does "stop at any bus" really mean? could I
> see a bus discharging children, and drive across
> town and stop at a different bus??? it doesn't say
> "stop at THAT bus"
>
> I'm sure you could find countless laws that are
> grammatically flawed.
>
> that's an even better argument. way better than
> the lawyer who claims his client in his fit of
> stress and rage thought that he was suppose to
> "stop any bus" when he put kids lives as risk.


Acutually it does, if you had read it, say where and how long...

§ 46.2-859. Passing a stopped school bus.

A person shall be guilty of reckless driving who fails to stop, when approaching from any direction, any school bus which is stopped on any highway or school driveway for the purpose of taking on or discharging children, the elderly, or mentally or physically handicapped persons, and to remain stopped until all such persons are clear of the highway or school driveway and the bus is put in motion.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: hm ()
Date: December 02, 2010 01:43PM

Maclay Wrote:
>
> Acutually it does, if you had read it, say where
> and how long...
>

READ IT WHERE? READ HOW LONG?

OH GOD! THE COMMAS! NIGHTMARE!

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: jimW ()
Date: December 02, 2010 01:47PM

Maclay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Acutually it does, if you had read it, say where
> and how long...
>
> § 46.2-859. Passing a stopped school bus.
>
> A person shall be guilty of reckless driving who
> fails to stop, when approaching from any
> direction, any school bus which is stopped on any
> highway or school driveway for the purpose of
> taking on or discharging children, the elderly, or
> mentally or physically handicapped persons, and to
> remain stopped until all such persons are clear of
> the highway or school driveway and the bus is put
> in motion.

when does a bus ever stop on a "highway"

this law was set to stop kids from getting hurt and killed. and we're all arguing about it on the internet.

"I'd rather live with a law that was written stupid, than to live with stupid people that have no law." - jimW 2010

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: justsayin ()
Date: December 02, 2010 02:05PM

No, the original non-amended law was set to be enforced as a rule to get people to stop for school buses, with an intended yet tangential effect of keeping kids from getting hurt or killed. Otherwise the law would simply say it is illegal to run over children walking to and from school buses, which this specific law does not name as illegal activity.

The amended law says you can't fail to stop a school bus. If the bus is stopped, then by definition you can't be accused of not stopping it.

As for "highway" there are plenty of them in the county where school buses stop. In another thread I was reminded that the term highway does not mean the same as interstate highway, so I'll pass that along here.

As for mental midgets who say "WOAH, A COMMA" then I'd remind them (or rather inform them, as they probably don't know) that how laws are written, to include placement of commas, can have a huge effect on the outcome of a court case. DC vs Heller and McDonald vs Chicago, among others, are notable examples.

----------------------------------------

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"If you only knew who I was, and what I was working to do you would...have the decency to tell me I hated my nation and the way of life. I may not agree with...the government...I hate the "government"......" - Firrat 9/1/10

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Josey Wales ()
Date: December 02, 2010 02:48PM

While the cops may not get you for passing the school bus the soccer moms sure will.
Attachments:
l24735-2.jpg

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: snowdenscold ()
Date: December 03, 2010 10:41AM

I don't understand why that 1892 Supreme Court ruling didn't apply. Isn't requiring someone to stop a stopped bus 'absurd' ?

-----
He cited a U.S. Supreme Court case from 1892 that said, "If a literal construction of the words of a statute be absurd, the act must be so construed as to avoid the absurdity."
-----

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Duchess ()
Date: December 03, 2010 11:16AM

I can't believe this thread is this long over the word "at" or a comma. Makes Bill Clinto's questioning the definition of the word "is" look intellighent.

>" Eric E. Clingan = SHITTY Lawyer"

No way. He actually read the law and found the hole in the code, and most lawyers would have said lets work out a deal that keeps your license and you outta jail, if they didn't advise you to just pay the ticket and take your lumps.

I am not sure about deningrating any aliens legal or not - they manage to get through the DMV somehow which can really challenge a person born in this state and country. God forbid if you have changed your name since birth.

And face it, even if he had lost his license he would probably do what most of these guys do - drive without a license. They are getting too easy to lose and too hard to regain, so people just drive without them. Ask anyone who has tried to collect insurance on an accident - these folks don't have any insurance because they don't have a license.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: KeepOnTruckin ()
Date: December 03, 2010 11:48AM

jimW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maclay Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> when does a bus ever stop on a "highway"

The statute probably includes a definition of "highway" that means it is basically all roads in the Commonwealth.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Date: December 03, 2010 01:48PM

No way.

YES WAY.

HE STOPPED DEFENDING HIS GUILTY CLIENT AND REQUESTED A MOTION TO THROW OUT THE CASE BECAUSE OF A *RIDICULOUS* NOTION HE HAD ABOUT THE LAWS TRUE INTENT BEING DRIVERS PHYSICALLY STOPPING AN ALREADY *STOPPED* SCHOOL BUS. = SHITTY LAWYER

SO STFU.

He actually read the law and found the hole in the code,

BULLSHIT. THERE WAS NO "HOLE" IN ANY "CODE"
HE CLAIMED A LAW THAT OROHIBITS RECKLESS DRIVERS FROM DRIVING RECKLESSLY WHEN APPROACHING A SCHOOL BUS. INSTEAD HE ARGUED THE LAW WAS COMPELLING ABSURDITY.

> "and most lawyers would have said lets work out a deal that keeps your license and you outta jail, if they didn't advise you to just pay the ticket and take your lumps.

MOST LAWYERS WOULD HAVE KEPT THEIR OCCUPATIONAL INTEGRITY AND NOT PRESENTED THE COURTS WITH A SHOTTY PISS POOR IDEA.

THIS is not his first time defending a case like this so why was he staring at a lawbook anyways?

CASA DE MARYLAND SHOULD BE PROUD OF ERIC E.CLINGAN AND HIS NEGLIGENT AMD INCOMPETANT DEFENSE OF THIS HISPANIC ASSCLOWN.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Maclay ()
Date: December 03, 2010 02:06PM

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jimW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Maclay Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > when does a bus ever stop on a "highway"
>
> The statute probably includes a definition of
> "highway" that means it is basically all roads in
> the Commonwealth.


Consider the definition of the word Highway:

–noun
1. a main road, esp. one between towns or cities: the highway between Los Angeles and Seattle.
2. any public road or waterway.
3. any main or ordinary route, track, or course.

makes you laugh harder eh?

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: jake brake ()
Date: November 23, 2017 05:19PM

All these years later this law was never fixed. I just saw it used last week, case dismissed!

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Fffffffffghy ()
Date: November 23, 2017 06:27PM

So did he stop the bus or not. If he didn't stop the bus he is clearly in violation of the law and should have been cited.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: This is crazy ()
Date: November 25, 2017 11:34AM

Passing of school bus's won't happen anymore. FCPS is adding an extended arm that come out ten feet or so from the side of the bus with a flashing light. The intent is to get you to hit it and charge you with more traffic violations.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Morons abound ()
Date: November 25, 2017 11:59AM

This is crazy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Passing of school bus's won't happen anymore. FCPS
> is adding an extended arm that come out ten feet
> or so from the side of the bus with a flashing
> light. The intent is to get you to hit it and
> charge you with more traffic violations.

Right, that's totally the intent. It couldn't possibly just be to make it more obvious to folks not to pass the fucking thing.

P.S. "buses". English, motherfucker.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: Mike_Hunt ()
Date: November 25, 2017 12:28PM

Morons abound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> P.S. "buses". English, motherfucker.

LOL, it's always been 'busses' to me, but I'm willing to learn more:

From ~ https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/plural-of-bus


Is it 'Buses' or 'Busses'?

When the word bus was new, the two plurals were in competition, but buses overtook busses in frequency in the 1930s, and today is the overwhelming choice of writers and editors. Busses was the preferred form in Merriam-Webster dictionaries until 1961.

The plural of bus is buses. A variant plural, busses, is also given in the dictionary, but has become so rare that it seems like an error to many people.

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Re: Feel free to speed past a school bus with red lights on, it's legal for now
Posted by: driver of busses ()
Date: November 25, 2017 01:16PM

im sorry mr hunt. i went to school in fairfax county and got a pertisipation diploma so i got a job drivin a skool bus. thats howd i know this stuff. i didnt knows i wasnot post to be ritting like that. almost 30 years sterring your kids.

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