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Public and private schools
Posted by: Socrates ()
Date: October 13, 2010 09:40AM

Private schools are the biggest scam going: for one thing, private school teachers in general get paid even LESS than public school teachers. For another, because private schools are not held to the same standards as public schools, any unlicensed person can get a teaching job. I am not trying to say that a licensed teacher is better than an unlicensed one universally, but it is good to know that there are some minimal requirements in screening. Finally, teachers in a private school, and especially admins in private schools, are keenly aware that their jobs are tied intimately to the purse strings of the parents; as a consequence little Johnny and little Sarah are even more likely to get the grades that their mommies and daddies want them to have; if a teacher tells gives the wrong grade a few times too many, out the door they go, and what does an unlicensed "educator" do when he or she has gotten the boot? Do you think the next private school will like seeing that they got shitcanned for not giving the grades they were expected to give? You bet not! Better to keep your job by not causing rich parents to get into a snit. Therefore the school's grades look superior to the public school's grades, and therefore people make the erroneous asumtpion that the private schools are better.
I am not saying that all public schools are better than all private schools by any stretch of the imagination. No Child Left Behind has effectively neutered the US Educational system, and it may never recover. All I am saying is don't think that just because you are paying for good grades at a private school that the quality of education is superior. Public schools mirror the general public: some teachers and admins suck, some are great, and the vast majority fall somewhere in the middle. That's life

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: bullshit ()
Date: October 13, 2010 09:43AM

Socrates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Private schools are the biggest scam going: for
> one thing, private school teachers in general get
> paid even LESS than public school teachers. For
> another, because private schools are not held to
> the same standards as public schools, any
> unlicensed person can get a teaching job. I am not
> trying to say that a licensed teacher is better
> than an unlicensed one universally, but it is good
> to know that there are some minimal requirements
> in screening. Finally, teachers in a private
> school, and especially admins in private schools,
> are keenly aware that their jobs are tied
> intimately to the purse strings of the parents; as
> a consequence little Johnny and little Sarah are
> even more likely to get the grades that their
> mommies and daddies want them to have; if a
> teacher tells gives the wrong grade a few times
> too many, out the door they go, and what does an
> unlicensed "educator" do when he or she has gotten
> the boot? Do you think the next private school
> will like seeing that they got shitcanned for not
> giving the grades they were expected to give? You
> bet not! Better to keep your job by not causing
> rich parents to get into a snit. Therefore the
> school's grades look superior to the public
> school's grades, and therefore people make the
> erroneous asumtpion that the private schools are
> better.
> I am not saying that all public schools are better
> than all private schools by any stretch of the
> imagination. No Child Left Behind has effectively
> neutered the US Educational system, and it may
> never recover. All I am saying is don't think that
> just because you are paying for good grades at a
> private school that the quality of education is
> superior. Public schools mirror the general
> public: some teachers and admins suck, some are
> great, and the vast majority fall somewhere in the
> middle. That's li
Attachments:
bull.jpg

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: October 13, 2010 09:50AM

I think some private schools can make the honest claim that they have more personalized attention to individual students, with small student to teacher ratios. However, with Fairfax public schools, the quality of education is close or even to some elite private school.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: info ()
Date: October 13, 2010 09:51AM

Graduation rates, college-bound percentages, just about every post-high school metric you can come up with points to higher achievement and results coming from private schools. That may be because parents are more involved because they are paying big bucks, not sure. But no matter what the original poster's biases are, he/she does not address the more impressive results.

I am not saying kids can't be successful attending public schools, I am just responding to your nonsensical position. If the overall results are better, for whatever the reason, then it is wrong to say they are a scam and no better than public schools.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Socrates ()
Date: October 13, 2010 10:02AM

What a thorough and well explained point of you! How could anyone counter your brilliant and salient commentary? Private school grad I take it. Only there could you possibly have developed such a philosopical and all encompassing view of argumentation! Just so you know

In 2007–08, the average annual base salary of regular full-time public school teachers ($49,600) was higher than the average annual base salary of regular full-time private school teachers ($36,300). (http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=55)
And this, although this was a Harvard study and, therefore, probably way too difficult for you to comprehend:

http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/PEPG06-02-PetersonLlaudet.pdf

One of the conclusions is:
As we said in our conclusions to the main paper, we do not conclude from this
exercise that the NAEP data reveal that private schools are superior to public schools.

Oh, and conclusions come at the end in case you aren't smart enough to figure that out.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Socrates ()
Date: October 13, 2010 10:04AM

Read above info...btw the insult wasn't meant for you. But you need to examine your own bias... it is reasonable to assume that private school parents have more money, and money talks in the college application process. Also, when comapring rates, you need to assume that population samples are congruous- there are many more public than private school students, so any statistical comparison that does not account for that is invalid

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Britdrnva~ ()
Date: October 13, 2010 10:06AM

I think Socrates makes a valid point.

The teachers at some private schools (don't know if all of them are the same) are not required to have teaching credentials (license, education degree, etc). There is definitely an element of 'customer service' if you will that could play into grade inflation.

Conversely, a lot of these private schools also have things that even Fairfax County does not, much more hands on, in-depth learning. Higher ratio of teachers:students ...and as info wrote - the metrics for kids coming from these schools is pretty good - they often go to good universities, etc. So there is that element too.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Socrates ()
Date: October 13, 2010 10:15AM

Brit:
Exactly, and, by the way, I never made the claim that public schools are better, I just said that private schools are not all that they are cracked up to be. As a public school educator, I see a great deal that is wrong with public education, and I can certainly understand why some parents would choose to go private (be it for educational reasons, moral reasons, or both). I am just tired of private schools getting lauded as a cure all when they simply sren't. There are some amazing private schools, but I would be interested to see how even their students do in comparison to those coming out of TJ (granted, TJ DOES stretch the concept of 'public' to an extreme).

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: ITRADE ()
Date: October 13, 2010 10:52AM

Its pretty well accepted that private school teachers are paid less. I do think there are benefits though that come with that lower pay.

I went to private school for all of my 12 years of primary education. I had a very good experience throughout and developed good bonds with some of the teachers at my highschool. I went back to a reunion a few years back and many faculty members are still there. When you're all grown up, you can talk to many of them as person-to-person as opposed to student to teacher.

In talking to one teacher (my former football coach - also teaches geometry), I asked him about the difference between when he taught public and private. The simple answer was - control and accountability.

Accountability: failing private teachers do not stay in private schools; inept private teachers are not shielded by a teacher's union that seeks to wall off performance from accountability.

Control: in private school, a teacher has a significant control over his/her classroom. If the teacher thinks you are an idiot, they can tell you that. If a teacher thinks a kid is a major discipline issue, the teacher has tools to deal with that issue. There is little to no control in public school.

Despite the disparity in pay, the teacher preferred - any day of the week - to be teaching in a private school.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2010 10:52AM by ITRADE.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Socrates ()
Date: October 13, 2010 11:08AM

Interesting Itrade. I would agree with you about accountability - our "unions" do protect weak, even insanely weak, teachers. As far as control, I would disagree: if I want to call a kid an idiot, I will (I have actually) and there has never been an issue. I have friends who teach in private school who would be much, MUCH more hesitant to say such a thing to a kid in their schools. I do, however, see where a private school kid may get the " I am paying _____ amount of dollars for you to go to this school and you will NOT get kicked out" lecture, thereby controlling the child's behavior. I love teaching in a public school, and I am sure I would love teaching in a private school (if it werent religious, that just isn't for me), but I would never make less money for doing the job.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Aristotle ()
Date: October 13, 2010 11:12AM

Socrates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What a thorough and well explained point of you!

Let me guess, with that sentence structure, you must be a public school grad?

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Aristotle ()
Date: October 13, 2010 11:13AM

Socrates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a public school educator,

enough said....

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Aristotle ()
Date: October 13, 2010 11:17AM

Socrates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am sure I would love teaching in a private
> school (if it werent religious, that just isn't
> for me), but I would never make less money for
> doing the job.

Glad to see it is all about the Benjamins for you.

Look, you should quit harping on the private schools for a number of reasons. First, they are taking a good number of students out of the public system thereby lessening your burden. Second, they still pay your salary whether they go there or not. More than likely they are paying a greater share as they have the resources to send their kids to private schools. Finally, take a look at SAT scores at public vs. private and get back to us. More importantly, look at college graduation rates at public vs. private and get back to us.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Socrates ()
Date: October 13, 2010 11:30AM

Glad to see it is all about the Benjamins for you.


Look, you should quit harping on the private schools for a number of reasons. First, they are taking a good number of students out of the public system thereby lessening your burden. Second, they still pay your salary whether they go there or not. More than likely they are paying a greater share as they have the resources to send their kids to private schools. Finally, take a look at SAT scores at public vs. private and get back to us. More importantly, look at college graduation rates at public vs. private and get back to us."

Yes, Aristotle, I got into teaching for the money! Everyone gets into education for the money as it is so widely known as a lucrative profession!

You sound like the kind of ascot-wearing rich boy who gets a DWI and then screams, "I PAY YOUR SALARY" at the cops,but since I can't prove that, I guess I will let it go unsaid ;-0. Had your limited powers of observations trumped your myopic mindset, you may have noticed that I am not "harping" on private schools; I am merely pointing out that they are not the panacea that they are purported to be in the quagmire of the American Education system. The Harvard study I cite backs my assertion, and, if there were an appropriate instrument for comparing graduation rates based on population factors,socio-economic factors etc, I am sure the rates from public and private schools would be similar. As it is, however, a much larger segment of the population attends public schools as opposed to private schools, therefore rendering statistical comparisons invalid.
Finally, I don't see students as a burden whatsoever, so the private schools are not doing me any favors in that regard.
I will reiterate- I don't wish to bash private schools, and I certainly do not think public schools are in good shape (a quick read of Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers will sum up why we are falling ever further behind Asian countries and even countries like FInland in quality of education). I am merely pointing out that private schools aren't all they are sometimes made out to be.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Wow ()
Date: October 13, 2010 12:10PM

Socrates - You either didn't understand the Harvard report or intentionally took one sentence out of context. Here is a more accurate portrayal of the findings of the Harvard report:


Conclusions
Based on the 2003 NAEP data, when student characteristics are estimated
consistently across school sectors, a private-school advantage relative to public schools is evident at all grade levels in both math and reading in all estimations but one. The single exception, 4th-grade math, reveals parity when Model I is used to estimate the school sector effect but a private school advantage when Models II and III are employed....

As we said in our conclusions to the main paper, we do not conclude from this
exercise that the NAEP data reveal that private schools are superior to public schools. NAEP data are too fragile to permit any inference about school sector effects, one way or another.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Taxpaying Parent ()
Date: October 13, 2010 12:15PM

What is a public school teacher doing posting in an online forum during school hours? Don't you have students to teach?

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Socrates ()
Date: October 13, 2010 12:47PM

PSAT day and I got hall duty. Worry about yourself ok?

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Taxpaying Parent ()
Date: October 13, 2010 12:59PM

Socrates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PSAT day and I got hall duty. Worry about yourself
> ok?

And this is the most productive way you could spend your time and the taxpayers money? Seriously? And isn't the whole crux of your argument that we should be comparing public schools more favorably to private schools? How a teacher spends their time while being paid should be a factor in that determination. Do us a favor and your argument a favor and post when you aren't on the taxpayer's time. You are the exact reason I am considering moving my children to private school. The fact that you are telling me to "worry about" myself indicates you have no interest in being held accountable.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Socrates ()
Date: October 13, 2010 01:24PM

WOW- I understood perfectly, that is why I said ONE of the conclusions.The part you first quote is contradicted in the paper, and the conclusion offes the summation "...we do not conclude from this
exercise that the NAEP data reveal that private schools are superior to public schools". If I were paying the kind of money that many private schools around here charge:
PVI- 10,230 (catholic, first kid) 14,300 (non -catholic) (www.Pvi.net)

BI- 11,360- 15,300 (non-Catholic) (www.bishopireton.org)

The Potomac School- Grades 9-12: $30,920 (www.potomacschool.org)

The Langley School- (6-8) $26,940 (www.langleyschool.org)

The Madeira School- Resident $47,314 (Madeira)
Day $35,926

The New School: High School 9 - 12 $ 23,200


I would want a little more assurance particulary when the #1 Public school in the country (TJ, which I am sure rivals or surpasses most private schools in terms of admissions to Ivy League school etc), the #47 school in the country (Langley), and myriad other highly acclaimed high schools (http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com) are right in Fairfax County. Heck, for the cost of a four year education at a very average private school you could put down a decent downpayment on a house(say 10% of a 400,000 dollar house- I found 6 in that range in Mclean) , have a thirty year investment, get your tax break, and still get your kids a great education

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Taxpaying Parent ()
Date: October 13, 2010 01:28PM

Taxpaying Parent:
Yeah, private school teachers never spend their time on the internet I bet. Imagine the kind of hell you will be able to give teachers when the money for their salary comes directly out of your pocket- I don't have to listen to you and find your objections comical, they will have to take you seriously. I will be right back- I am going to go tell a cop on his lunchbreak to get back to work, yell at some construction workers for drinking coffee, and bitch at Obama for playing golf on Saturdays

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Taxpaying Parent ()
Date: October 13, 2010 01:39PM

Taxpaying Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Taxpaying Parent:
> Yeah, private school teachers never spend their
> time on the internet I bet. Imagine the kind of
> hell you will be able to give teachers when the
> money for their salary comes directly out of your
> pocket- I don't have to listen to you and find
> your objections comical, they will have to take
> you seriously. I will be right back- I am going to
> go tell a cop on his lunchbreak to get back to
> work, yell at some construction workers for
> drinking coffee, and bitch at Obama for playing
> golf on Saturdays

Socrates,
I can see you are having trouble with that whole "Your Name" line as well as the ability to hit the "Quote" button.

I am sure you don't listen to anyone about anything. Oh wait, I am sorry, you do pay attention to Harvard studies that attempt to debunk Princeton and Columbia studies. You cling to this Harvard study despite the fact that it has been widely criticised in academic journals.

You have your mighty education certificate and know what is best for all students, right?

Do you get the difference between lunch breaks and paid time? It is probably best for your students if you just take a very long lunch break.

The fact that you so desperately need to defend the failed educational system you are a part of is a good indicator of the sad state it is in.

PS - show me one house for $400K in the Langley Pyramid.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Socrates ()
Date: October 13, 2010 01:49PM

Taxpaying Citizen:

I admit I screwed that up, but I do know when to use an apostrophe after an s as in TAXPAYERS' time), so maybe we are even. I cling to nothing, and I have READILY admitted that there is a lot wrong with the public education system in America, specifically in that it protects the jobs of weak teachers (of which I am not one). However, I am saying that the problem goes beyond just the public schools, and throwing boatloads of cash ( true, I could find no homes for 400k in Langley pyramid, but I was basing the 40k on the LOWEST tuition I put above, not the highest or even the middle) into a private school where teachers are woefully underpaid and education could come filtered through a religious bias. If you look back, I have NEVER defended the system I am in, in fact I think it is bad. i think No Child left Behind is terrible, and I think the way education continually caters to the weakest students will put us farther behind the rest of the world. I implore you, really , to read what I have written and not just react in knee-jerk style.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: WOW ()
Date: October 13, 2010 02:07PM

Socrates - No, the first part of what I posted ISN'T contradicted within their study.

That aside, they aren't drawing any conclusions about private vs. public because, ultimately (in their opinion) the NAEP data sucks (i.e. "too fragile"). Somehow, you're spinning their lack of forming a definitive conclusion as proof that private is not better than public. Please, tell me you're joking?

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Socrates ()
Date: October 13, 2010 02:28PM

I don't see what we are discussing WOW. They may not like the data, but they could not come to a conclusion stating private is better than public, which is different than them saying that they couldn't reach any type of conclusion. But here are some other studies:

"To wit, many of us believe, hands-down, that private schools are better than public schools. However, a recent study by the husband-and-wife team of Sarah Thuele Lubienski and Christopher Lubienski, researchers at the University of Illinois-Champaign, found that when they controlled for a family’s socioeconomic background, public-school kids slightly outperformed private-school kids." - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8743221/

"Public schools perform favorably with private schools when students' income and socio-economic status are taken into account, according to a new report from the U.S. Education Department. The findings counter a popularly held notion, that private schools outperform public schools." http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5584516

http://www.education.com/magazine/article/Ed_Private_vs_Schools/

I have no doubt that you can find evidence to the contrary, but with 90 percent of American children attending public schools, and with my family and i living in the area that we live in, the fact that there is ANY controversy coupled with the relatively outstanding public education system catalyze our choice to have our kids in public schools (we could go private; not because we are rich teachers but because we've gotten lucky a time or two), thereby keeping money in our pockets. If you all made the other decision, great, but I don't think private education deserves the sycophantic lauding that it gets.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: privatskool ()
Date: October 13, 2010 06:08PM

Private school wouldn't exist in this area if the public schools were adequate. Why does a beemer cost more than a kia, because it is better. In public schools you have to deal with feeding poor children, pensions, add act etc... wsted money. In private school most of the chidrens basic necessities are. Met.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: kids learn in both places ()
Date: October 13, 2010 09:56PM

Who believes that private schools are about education? They are just as much about keeping kids from mixing with the "lower classes". It has always been this way. Or possibly from mixing with children of a "different God". It's about separation, not education. That is what the money pays for.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: snowdenscold ()
Date: October 13, 2010 11:08PM

Anyone else think it's funny that The Langley School is right near McLean HS and The Potomac School is right near Langley HS ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2010 09:41AM by snowdenscold.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: dubmaster ()
Date: October 14, 2010 09:29AM

Poor proplr suck up resources and slow down learning. They also bring with them drugs to sell because they need to make unreported income to continue using wic and welfare. In the public schools you have to waste a lot of money on ESL, free or reduced lunches.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: slubdawg ()
Date: October 14, 2010 11:18AM

I think I can provide a different perspective here, I went to a military school here in VA and was a teacher in FCPS. First of all, just being in a private school does not guarantee there won't be kids without problems, or drugs, or whatever but there won't be lower socioeconomic kids though.

The quality of education in a private setting is superior because the teachers do not have to put up with outrageous behaviorial problems that public schools do. If kids are too bad, the privates can just boot them out. Beleive me, the atmosphere in the classroom makes a huge difference.

Just recalled a funny/sad incident. I recall hearing about a kid from a well-to-do family that went to one of the prestigious private schools in the district, he was caught dealing and kicked out of school. Had to spend the remainder of his senior year at an FCPS school. The incident occurred early in the year, like in September, don't you know the kid ended up being the Home Coming King, maybe he bribed the other students with free hits of something or other.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: slubdawg ()
Date: October 14, 2010 11:22AM

dubmaster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Poor proplr suck up resources and slow down
> learning. They also bring with them drugs to sell
> because they need to make unreported income to
> continue using wic and welfare. In the public
> schools you have to waste a lot of money on ESL,
> free or reduced lunches.


There is probably some truth to this statement. Public schools have become more like social services agencies than educaitonal systems. I'm not opposed to providing services for less fortunate, but the schools are being charged with doing much more than education but they are being evaluated on ecuational metrics alone.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: Bill ()
Date: October 14, 2010 11:27AM

This debate in the abstract is fairly pointless.

The greatest advantage of private schools is the ability of both the parents and the school to select based on how well the particular kid fits into the school. A private school that takes only kids that fit well with the school's curiculum and educational philosophy will probably outperform a public school that is stuck taking anybody.

The greatest problem with private schools is that they have more limited resources. A private school that gets by with mediocre teachers and limited educational choices is probably not going to do as well with its best students as a public school that probably pays its teachers more and can offer a wider variety of educational options.

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Re: Public and private schools
Posted by: education ()
Date: October 14, 2010 11:27PM

Why do they even bother providing school food? Its a luxary not a necessity, BAG your lunch. Who's great idea was it to provide it for free or subsidized for poor students? If you read about the DC Public Schools to the community the school isn't about learning but an insitituion for free childcare, free food and non firable union jobs. How can a child learn in an environment that has it's focus everywhere, remember jack of all trades master of none!

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