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now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Derrik ()
Date: July 26, 2007 11:02PM

Let me start by saying i work for fairfax county and have regular daily dealings with all branches of the county government specifically public safety. i am making this post to hopefully cause a stir and prevent a dramatic waste of county money

currently the fairfax county police department operates a helicopter unit, with two helicopters that provide 24 hour coverage to fairfax county for both medevac and law enforcement missions. in addition the police department makes this resource available to other jurisdictions as needed. the police helicopter does about 380 emergency medical flights a year in addition to many law enforcement flights. i would also like to state that there are other helicopters in the area to provide back up for both law enforcement missions and medical such as maryland state police, Aircare, MedSTAR, and Park Police among others. i have not heard of any time in the past 3 years i have been with the county any time when a helicopter was not available for any mission (outside of weather related reasons).

my understanding is that the fire and rescue department, specifically members of the fire chiefs administration team are planning on approaching the county about starting a fire-rescue helicopter that would be used for medevac, rescue missions, and transportation in-between hospitals of critical patients. the medical staff would be fire-rescue employees while the pilot and helicopter would be run by a private company (most likely a company called PHI www.phihelico.com). The county would end up paying for staffing, storage, fuel, a predetermined fee to PHI, among other costs. Also for your information:

- Currently the vast majority of aero medical patient transfers between hospitals are done by private companies; these private companies (AirCare and MedSTAR have about 6 helicopters in the DC area).

So if law enforcement missions are being satisfied, medevac missions are being satisfied, and inter-facility transports are being satisfied why would the fire department even consider asking for money for a helicopter?

I feel that an additional helicopter in our county especially given the county's current fiscal situation and the fact that all county helicopter needs are being fully met by the police department is a waste of money. I believe the best course of action is for the county to continue with one helicopter program based out of the police department which has been successfully run for many years.

please call your fairfax county board of supervisors representatives specifically chairman connolly at chairman@fairfaxcounty.gov or 703-324-2321

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: cw ()
Date: July 26, 2007 11:11PM

I am familiar with how Fairfax wastes money. Several fire department members lived in my neighborhood. All had office jobs and were given take home SUVs. I never saw them out beyond the M-F 8-4 work schedule.

I am not surprised they now want a helicopter and I dont doubt they will get it. The board of supervisors spend without any regard to the taxpayers.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: July 26, 2007 11:40PM

The Fire Chief probably wants to take his girlfriend up for a ride.

You ought to see the FCFD fireboat! TOTALLY unnecessary, and a TOTAL waste of taxpayer dollars.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Lunchmeats ()
Date: July 26, 2007 11:59PM

Just be glad that they don't want Metal Storm Firefighting System that
cost more than the helicopters.

(yes, it's from the same company that designed weapons systems that can
fire 1 million rounds of bullets per minute)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pbV8z2XN4Q

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: trogdor! ()
Date: July 27, 2007 12:32AM

It's a one-ups-manship with the police. The FD feel left out. I heard once that the PD helicopters were paid for by INOVA and the crew's salary/aircraft maintenance was paid by the County. Who knows.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: myspaceaddict ()
Date: July 27, 2007 03:41PM

An extra helo would be great for the MANY MANY severe accidents that occur simultaneously during the daily rush hours. You wouldn't feel that another helo was a waste of money if you or your family member were involved in some sort of life threatening situation requiring you be flown to the hospital in time to save your life. At the MOST, YOU as an individual tax payer will contribute less than a nickel of your taxes towards the new helo and it's upkeep. AND no one is ever charged for the services it provides, go to Montgomery County, flip your vehicle, get medivac'd, receive your bill, whine about how much the county tax there DOESN'T pay for things, then kindly hand over the thousands of dollars that your insurance WON'T cover for your transportation. Furthermore the helicopters can't stay in the air all day long just waiting for a call, they lift off as soon as they are called up. They have to gas up... Keep in mind that there are several high priority police incidents in the county each day that need the helo, burglaries, shootings/stabbings, robberies, couple those with medical emergencies from fires, vehicle accidents, construction accidents, etc. A third helo wouldn't be a bad idea. YOU are also assuming that both helo's are always operational and that's not always the case. *Shrug* The fireboat may be "unnecessary" to the 99.5% of the county's population that has never needed a water rescue... maybe we should sell it and let people drown or burn up on their cute little boat thats aflame floating down the Potomac, that'll teach those silly citizens!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2007 03:42PM by myspaceaddict.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: gnarly chopper ()
Date: July 27, 2007 03:52PM

I don't see a need for another chopper either.

I was at the Vienna fireworks this year with the explosion and disaster that happened, and I would say within 10 minutes, the FFX County Police Chopper arrived to medavac one of the badly hurt civilians. I think they did a great job with time and getting there, especially with helping the fire department out.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: 4wheeler ()
Date: July 27, 2007 04:15PM

besides... the money for it (if it happen) most likely would come from a grant from homeland sec. i would doubt it would come from the "taxpayes money".

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Lester Burnham ()
Date: July 27, 2007 04:15PM

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You ought to see the FCFD fireboat! TOTALLY
> unnecessary, and a TOTAL waste of taxpayer
> dollars.


Fireboat does not equal helicopter. While there are plenty of alternatives to the FCPD chopper as noted previously, boat 420 has a unique mission and is kept pretty busy, especially on summer weekends. The PD has a marine unit, but their role is law enforcement.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: ffxn8v ()
Date: July 27, 2007 04:28PM

Lester Burnham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> duh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You ought to see the FCFD fireboat! TOTALLY
> > unnecessary, and a TOTAL waste of taxpayer
> > dollars.
>
>
> Fireboat does not equal helicopter. While there
> are plenty of alternatives to the FCPD chopper as
> noted previously, boat 420 has a unique mission
> and is kept pretty busy, especially on summer
> weekends. The PD has a marine unit, but their
> role is law enforcement.


_________________________________________________________

Lester is right on the money, the fire boats and PD boats are all essential here. I don't want to see more, but am glad to see what we have got.

The helicopter, that is another story. We got into the helicopter business long before INOVA got their big red/white/blue chopper. We as a county, used to run the helicopter transport missions for them much more than we do now. I thin we may have even sold a helo - maybe two...

Does the FD need one? No. What for? For aerial fire fighting? Doubtful. For rescues? Call the FCPD - they are avail. with all the choppers they (still) have.

My vote is NO. Fairfax BOD, are you listening?

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Genevieve ()
Date: July 27, 2007 09:09PM

Would this helicopter be capable of any tasks that the current helicopters are not capable of? Like something specific to fire rescue?

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: July 27, 2007 09:29PM

Lester Burnham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> duh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You ought to see the FCFD fireboat! TOTALLY
> > unnecessary, and a TOTAL waste of taxpayer
> > dollars.
>
>
> Fireboat does not equal helicopter. While there
> are plenty of alternatives to the FCPD chopper as
> noted previously, boat 420 has a unique mission
> and is kept pretty busy, especially on summer
> weekends. The PD has a marine unit, but their
> role is law enforcement.

Below the Wilson Bridge, the Potomac River is in Maryland's jurisdiction...except for a few small tributaries. Above the bridge is DC...which operates several fine fireboats, including the John Glenn, a former FDNY vessel.

Fairfax County has a police and fire boats because somebody wants to go for a boat ride on the publics' nickel.

I operate a 57 foot motor yacht on the river and I heave to ONLY for the Maryland Marine Police (DNR) or the DC Metropolitan Police Department's Harbor Branch....and of course, the US Coast Guard.

Fairfax County has no business patrolling Maryland or DC waters!

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Penn Daw ()
Date: July 27, 2007 10:33PM

28 years with the FCFD and I have heard nothing of the department wanting or even dicussing a helicopter.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: KeepOnTruckin ()
Date: July 27, 2007 11:21PM

the fcfd boat is in the gunston hall area right? mason neck i think, i just read about it being used last week, some dudes boat caught on fire.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2007 11:21PM by KeepOnTruckin.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: trogdor! ()
Date: July 28, 2007 12:41AM

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the fcfd boat is in the gunston hall area right?
> mason neck i think, i just read about it being
> used last week, some dudes boat caught on fire.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/metalcraftmarine/tags/fairfax/

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: TheMeeper ()
Date: July 28, 2007 08:42AM

I've seen it docked at Pohick Bay Park over the past few months.


KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the fcfd boat is in the gunston hall area right?
> mason neck i think, i just read about it being
> used last week, some dudes boat caught on fire.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Kobersteen ()
Date: July 28, 2007 09:57AM

duh Wrote:

> Below the Wilson Bridge, the Potomac River is in
> Maryland's jurisdiction...except for a few small
> tributaries. Above the bridge is DC...which
> operates several fine fireboats, including the
> John Glenn, a former FDNY vessel.
>
> Fairfax County has a police and fire boats because
> somebody wants to go for a boat ride on the
> publics' nickel.
>
> I operate a 57 foot motor yacht on the river and I
> heave to ONLY for the Maryland Marine Police (DNR)
> or the DC Metropolitan Police Department's Harbor
> Branch....and of course, the US Coast Guard.
>
> Fairfax County has no business patrolling Maryland
> or DC waters!


Well, good damn luck with the DNR if your '57 foot motor yacht' catches fire or you or one of your passengers suffer a medical emergency on your boat. Hopefully the Charles County, MD volunteers have their boat in the water and enough trained personnel to respond to save your investment from burning to the water line and can get you to shore fast enough to save your, or your passengers, life. Fairfax County Fire Boat 420 monitors Channel 16 on a constant basis and always has a firefighter trained in advanced emergency medical care so that treatment can begin even before they take you off your boat.

If you really doubt that the Fairfax County Fire Boat is necessary, I encourage you to contact Station Captain Jimmy Chinn at Fire Station 20 (703-339-5970) and arrange for a tour and full explanation on how Fire Boat 420 benefits the county, its residents and visitors.

As for the Fire Department Helicopter, I have not heard about that rumor in better than a year. Many people have many seemingly good ideas that never actually come to fruition, but are animately debated. This may just be one of those... I cannot say for sure.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: July 28, 2007 10:56AM

Kobersteen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> duh Wrote:
>
> > Below the Wilson Bridge, the Potomac River is
> in
> > Maryland's jurisdiction...except for a few
> small
> > tributaries. Above the bridge is DC...which
> > operates several fine fireboats, including the
> > John Glenn, a former FDNY vessel.
> >
> > Fairfax County has a police and fire boats
> because
> > somebody wants to go for a boat ride on the
> > publics' nickel.
> >
> > I operate a 57 foot motor yacht on the river and
> I
> > heave to ONLY for the Maryland Marine Police
> (DNR)
> > or the DC Metropolitan Police Department's
> Harbor
> > Branch....and of course, the US Coast Guard.
> >
> > Fairfax County has no business patrolling
> Maryland
> > or DC waters!
>
>
> Well, good damn luck with the DNR if your '57 foot
> motor yacht' catches fire or you or one of your
> passengers suffer a medical emergency on your
> boat. Hopefully the Charles County, MD volunteers
> have their boat in the water and enough trained
> personnel to respond to save your investment from
> burning to the water line and can get you to shore
> fast enough to save your, or your passengers,
> life. Fairfax County Fire Boat 420 monitors
> Channel 16 on a constant basis and always has a
> firefighter trained in advanced emergency medical
> care so that treatment can begin even before they
> take you off your boat.
>
> If you really doubt that the Fairfax County Fire
> Boat is necessary, I encourage you to contact
> Station Captain Jimmy Chinn at Fire Station 20
> (703-339-5970) and arrange for a tour and full
> explanation on how Fire Boat 420 benefits the
> county, its residents and visitors.
>
> As for the Fire Department Helicopter, I have not
> heard about that rumor in better than a year.
> Many people have many seemingly good ideas that
> never actually come to fruition, but are animately
> debated. This may just be one of those... I
> cannot say for sure.

From where does FCFD monitor VHF-16? Certainly not from the vessel....it seems to be unattended most weekdays. These guys appear to be weekend warriors (if it's warm and sunny)

The County fireboat may be a nice thing to have, but it's still unnecessary....I've been boating for 40 years and I accept the risks inherent to it. Most summers, the wife and I cruise to Maine...offshore. You're on your own 100 miles out! Therefore, we carry a full compliment of lifesaving gear, rafts, EPIRBs, etc and the boat is equipped with a state-of-the-art automatic fire suppression system. I think most boaters understand that there is an element of danger in the sport.

I have a much bigger problem with the Fairfax "Marine Patrol". I hope the hell that the County has had an Admiralty attorney thoroughly review FCMP' operating procedures. The rules are completely different on the water and those cops could cost the taxpayers big bucks if they screw around with the wrong vessel out there.

I suspect that they have....FCMP tried to board my boat a couple years ago and I refused to allow them aboard. They apparently are aware that they have no jurisdiction in Maryland waters and, in the absence of any probable cause, they didn't push it.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: WashingToneLocian ()
Date: July 28, 2007 11:58AM

Maybe the copter will be as successful as this one in Phoenix...

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3645.html

Warning, the video is disturbing. It's from yesterday's collision over Phoenix. It is footage from one of the copters that was going live when it went down. You hear the guys screaming in the background just before the station cuts to break.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: TheMeeper ()
Date: July 28, 2007 12:15PM

man thats fucked up

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: trogdor! ()
Date: July 28, 2007 12:29PM

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> man thats fucked up

Who knew appealing to the voyeuristic interests of the TV viewing public could be so expensive. I mean, this was a run-of-the-mill police chase, and there were at least (3) freaking helicopters covering it. Two crashed, the third then started filming the crash site. WTF. How much money is in local TV news anyway? Yesterday that coverage cost somewhere in the neighborhood of four people's lives and $20 million.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: G-Man ()
Date: July 28, 2007 02:59PM

TV studios cost millions and the choppers are leased normally to save some money. Most news choppers fly twice a day for traffic reports. I've had the opportunity to be a camera operator in a chopper and I turned it down. Most of the pilots are young and very in experienced with low flight hours. Most of the pilots take a news chopper job so they can rack up the flight hours for better paying jobs.

When you have a producer or director yelling in your ear and telling you if you don't do XYZ you will be fired you tend to make stupid mistakes. What happened in Phoenix is a real bummer. I'm sure the pilots of those two choppers were distracted and did not realize they were so close. I know the guys that fly the news and traffic aircraft in this area and they do a good job of talking to the others when they are working in the same area.

You should see the pay checks of producers and on camera talent... Its crazy how much they make. Behind the scenes crew makes a nice chunk money as well so to answer your question how much money is in local TV? too much. But keep watching so I keep getting paid!

But back to the topic. Existing Fairfax FD boat = Needed. New Fairfax FD chopper = Not needed, As I think FFX1 the PD Chopper has it covered.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: WeedFreak ()
Date: July 28, 2007 04:01PM

lol 420

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: bob ()
Date: July 28, 2007 06:30PM

First of all the Fairfax County Police only staff one helicopter, aka Fairfax 1, 24/7. The county has two helicopters, one which was paid off and designated as a reserve, that way if the new helicopter needs PM the flight crew will still be available. I hope you find the need to upgrade helicopters after 13 years of use acceptable. Further your statistics for Fairfax 1's missions are solely police calls - this does not include medical calls, yet is still fairly susbtantial. What the public does not recognize, at all, is that the federal government as well as the state provides millions of dollars to agencies to increase their interoperability. If the county wants a helicopter for the fire department, it has been researched and warranted. So next time you complain about take home cars, the new fire engines or FD helicopter remember that THAT is not increasing your taxes, rather the illegal mexicans that the PD arrests on a daily basis and crowds the ADC is!

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: low man on totem pole ()
Date: July 28, 2007 06:42PM

"So next time you complain about take home cars"

They are needed why? I pay for gas for my ride to work why dont they? I dont see the need to give guys who sit behind desks, and read about the work others do, to have a real need for a take home car. Gas is $3.00 a gallon not to mention wear and tear on a vehicle. Face it, it is just a perk for being high up in the fire department. Please dont tell me they might need to respond in for an emergency because that should already be covered by on duty personnel.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: July 28, 2007 09:30PM

Yeah...take home cars are a BS perk. Just like the boats and other toys.

At least they've slowed down the theft of County fuel...that was RIDICULOUS. The County thought that their new hybrid and other more fuel efficient vehicles were responsible for lower fuel costs....hell, it was an improvement in the Fuel Force system that cut down on the THIEVERY instead! All it took was programming the thing to not allow 20 gallons of gas to be put in a lawnmower (the thieves mostly used the number of equipment without odometers to scam the fuel management system).

And guess who were the worst offenders? Cops, of course. They even caught one asshole hauling County diesel fuel to Maryland to pour in his heating oil tank!

And I HATE the Fire "service"....and I pray if there's ever a fire at my house that it's totally and fully involved by the time somebody calls those axe wielding knuckleheads....I sure won't. I want my insurance company to build me a NEW house from scratch...not just patch up whatever FCFD fails to tear down.

There's NO such thing as a "public servant"....99.9% of these jerks are serving (and helping) themselves!

And as FCFD and FCPD take their weekend cruises on the Potomac....FCPS makes do with scores of 17 and 18 year old school buses.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: derrick ()
Date: July 28, 2007 11:09PM

ok, so bob if you read my inital post you would have seen that i included the number of medical missions flown by fairfax 1 (which is between 350-380/year) about 1 per day.

so like i said the 1 in service helicopter is more than able to handel the call volume currently. also just another fyi Fairfax 1 (FCPD Helicopter) always gives medical missions priority over law enforcement missions. so even if they are up on a police assignment, when a medevac comes in they break and come up on the fire side.

addressing what myspace said about "many many" accidents occuring that require multiple medevacs, that very rarely occurs in this county. you have to remember that fairfax hospital, the trauma center is located where 66 and the beltway meet and the vast majority of fairfax traumas are motor vehicle related and most of the rest occur near a major highway w/ direct access to the trauma center.

and if fairfax 1 is not availible then there is park police, AirCare, MedSTAR, and maryland state police all very close by. so there are currently more then enough helicopters to go around and fairfax fire does not need one.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: July 28, 2007 11:14PM

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's NO such thing as a "public
> servant"....99.9% of these jerks are serving (and
> helping) themselves!


my thanks go out to that 0.1% of public servants for not being self serving jerks. however, if you are reading this, it's probably not you. if you are reading this from a state computer, it's definitely not you. thanks, all 0.1% of you! as for the 99.9%, DIE IN A FIRE.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: TheMeeper ()
Date: July 28, 2007 11:55PM

those axe wielding knuckleheads

srsly LOL, and I thought the cops had it bad...I can't wait to hear what we call our ambulance drivers

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: July 29, 2007 12:51AM

C'mon....I don't expect anybody to commit suicide for 40 grand a year...or whatever firefighters make. But PUHLEEZE SPARE ME the smarmy depictions of the grizzled fireman holding a small child with tears running down his blackened face.

That's Walt Disneyesque bullshit.

Most firefighter deaths are the result of gross underestimates of the risks of a situation....or just plain bad luck....it's RARELY heroics.

I firmly believe that if FDNY had even the SLIGHTEST idea that the Twin Towers were going to come down....EVERY bridge off Manhattan Island would have been JAMMED with apparatus.

REPEAT, I wouldn't commit suicide for 40K a year and would NOT expect ANYBODY else to either. Just cool the I'ma hero...flag waving...drop a twenty in the boot bullshit.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: 4wheeler ()
Date: July 29, 2007 06:42AM

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> And I HATE the Fire "service"....and I pray if
> there's ever a fire at my house that it's totally
> and fully involved by the time somebody calls
> those axe wielding knuckleheads....I sure won't.
> I want my insurance company to build me a NEW
> house from scratch...not just patch up whatever
> FCFD fails to tear down.
>

Just remember that if it ever happens. I'm sure your insureance co will love to hear that excuse: "i did't call the fd because i wanted you to build me a new one after it burn to the ground" no, wait.. maybe when that happens you will complain that the fd didn't get there on time. get a fraking life. You are just plain ignorant and have no freaking clue.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Kobersteen ()
Date: July 29, 2007 08:21AM

duh Wrote:

> From where does FCFD monitor VHF-16? Certainly
> not from the vessel....it seems to be unattended
> most weekdays. These guys appear to be weekend
> warriors (if it's warm and sunny)

Fire Boat 420 is cross staffed with personnel from Engine 420 which is the fire station on Gunston Road closest to where the boat is docked. When the Fire Boat is on the water, Engine 420 goes out of service and another Engine is sent down to cover the Gubnston area. The personnel monitor Channel 16 from the Fire Boat and also from marine radio at the fire station.

The summer weekends and holidays are the most popular times for people to be on the water, so that is when Fire Boat 420 is staffed and on the water, but they are available to launch 24/7.



> The County fireboat may be a nice thing to have,
> but it's still unnecessary....I've been boating
> for 40 years and I accept the risks inherent to
> it.

I assume you have been driving vehicles on our areas highways for about as long too and have accepted the risks inherent to that but are not opposed to the fire service putting out your vehicle fire, attending to your medical emergency or accident, right?



> Most summers, the wife and I cruise to
> Maine...offshore. You're on your own 100 miles
> out! Therefore, we carry a full compliment of
> lifesaving gear, rafts, EPIRBs, etc and the boat
> is equipped with a state-of-the-art automatic fire
> suppression system. I think most boaters
> understand that there is an element of danger in
> the sport.

Good for you. You sound like a prepared boater. If only erveryone were so prepared. You sound like one of those high and mighty people who look down your nose at the fire department and refuse to vote for increased staffing and funding because it cuts into the fuel for your '57 foot motor yacht'... right until you need us. Then you blast us for not being there soon enough and doing enough... because of decreased staffing and funding issues.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Kobersteen ()
Date: July 29, 2007 08:46AM

duh Wrote:

> And I HATE the Fire "service"....and I pray if
> there's ever a fire at my house that it's totally
> and fully involved by the time somebody calls
> those axe wielding knuckleheads....I sure won't.
> I want my insurance company to build me a NEW
> house from scratch...not just patch up whatever
> FCFD fails to tear down.

... and despite that hatred, I will still respond when you call and treat you, your family and your possessions (including your precious 57 foot motor yacht) with the utmost of dignity and respect.

Wait a minute... possessions? Not like your 57 foot motor yacht or your house. You know... the stuff that money doesn't buy. I have taken priceless and irreplaceable family photographs, jewelry, furniture and other heirlooms from houses on fire so that they do not become damaged and potentially lost forever. Saying that the Fairfax County Fire & Rescue Department are merely 'axe wielding knuckleheads' just proves to me how ignorant you are of our job.


> There's NO such thing as a "public
> servant"....99.9% of these jerks are serving (and
> helping) themselves!

I'm not going to lie to you. A majority of the time, the schedule works out very good for us and my wife and kids having to trek up I-95 so that I can see them open Christmas presents on Christmas Day or having my son tell me about his first home run on the phone after the fact are just the price I pay. Waking up, seeing a blizzard and not having the luxury of going back to bed because 'the boss closed the office' is just not an option in our business.

True, I like helping people. Call it corny. It gives me tremendous satisfaction having the knowledge and being able to use it to help someone out who has lost control of a situation themselves. It doesn't matter if it is the three war medaled veteran who just needs help off the floor, the 40 year old father with a heart attack or the structure fire.


> And as FCFD and FCPD take their weekend cruises on
> the Potomac....FCPS makes do with scores of 17 and
> 18 year old school buses.

You will never hear me say that sections of FCPS do not deserve better, but I think you are very shortsighted on what the Fire Department does.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2007 05:59PM by Kobersteen.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Schrute ()
Date: July 29, 2007 05:27PM

low man on totem pole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "So next time you complain about take home cars"
>
> They are needed why? I pay for gas for my ride to
> work why dont they? I dont see the need to give
> guys who sit behind desks, and read about the work
> others do, to have a real need for a take home
> car. Gas is $3.00 a gallon not to mention wear and
> tear on a vehicle. Face it, it is just a perk for
> being high up in the fire department. Please dont
> tell me they might need to respond in for an
> emergency because that should already be covered
> by on duty personnel.

So the SWAT teams, Bomb Techs, Detectives, and countless other people could just drive their personally owned vehicles (POV) in to work and pick up a car to respond to their calls? That would be efficient. Did you know that on an average hostage/barricade incident, over 100 police personnel respond? How do you think those responders would get their without police vehicles? What about the crime scene technicians and detectives that respond to the rapes, robberies, and murders? What about all the tools and weapons that must be carried? You're the Chief of Police now, what to do?

Okay, I've anticipated your response. First you will say 100 people aren't needed on barricade incidents. I know, you have seen SWAT and think that only four guys need to show up with uzis and go rappel off the roof into the living room and save the danzel in distress, but that is not how it works. Also, insurance companies won't allow emergency personnel to respond to emergencies in their POV's. It is also against the law. Even legislators know that a toyota camry going 90 mph down the interstate is not a good idea. Second you will say that you will just have those folks working 24/7 so they won't need to take cars home. Wrong again, that would add about 500 new positions to the police department and seeing how the department could not get more than 10 this year, I doubt that will happen.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: low man on totem pole ()
Date: July 29, 2007 10:22PM

You ignored my observation. Why are fire department desk jockeys using take home SUV's when all they are doing is going to and from work. Oh wait, I forgot they were needed the time the gunpowder truck turned over at the mixing bowl. They let traffic flow by all day long while they figured out what to do. Then at the peak of rush hour they closed the beltway and had no plan in place to deal with the gridlock they caused. If it was so dangerous why did they let traffic flow by all day long.

For years the police and fire departments have dealt with responses with the equipment they have, now they think they must be equipped like New York City.
BTW dont go into how dangerous the job is. Statistics show that being a 7-11 clerk or cab driver is many times more dangerous.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: derrick ()
Date: July 29, 2007 10:43PM

derrick,

the difference btw a cab driver/711 clerk and a firefighter/cop is that when a cop or firefighter gets killed it is while protecting you. thats the difference.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: low man on totem pole ()
Date: July 29, 2007 11:55PM

I guess as taxpayers we are not allowed to question any expenses by the fire or police departments. They said they need it that should be enough reason.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: dirtyharry ()
Date: July 30, 2007 12:32AM

They need the helicopter to back up the speed boat on water rescues ! LOL

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: 4wheeler ()
Date: July 30, 2007 07:17AM

low man on totem pole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess as taxpayers we are not allowed to
> question any expenses by the fire or police
> departments. They said they need it that should be
> enough reason.


Yes you are allowed, i don't think you like the answers though. Seems like you are so smart, organized and well prepared, you should run for a position at the Board of Supervisors and change all those wrong doings of the Pd and the FD.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Schrute ()
Date: July 30, 2007 08:40AM

low man on totem pole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You ignored my observation. Why are fire
> department desk jockeys using take home SUV's when
> all they are doing is going to and from work. Oh
> wait, I forgot they were needed the time the
> gunpowder truck turned over at the mixing bowl.
> They let traffic flow by all day long while they
> figured out what to do. Then at the peak of rush
> hour they closed the beltway and had no plan in
> place to deal with the gridlock they caused. If it
> was so dangerous why did they let traffic flow by
> all day long.
>
> For years the police and fire departments have
> dealt with responses with the equipment they have,
> now they think they must be equipped like New York
> City.
> BTW dont go into how dangerous the job is.
> Statistics show that being a 7-11 clerk or cab
> driver is many times more dangerous.

Well, it is obvious that you have some deep rooted "issue" with police and fire people. How many 7-11 clerks ran into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on September 11? When a "scary man" breaks in your house in the middle of the night and you hide in your closet and whisper to the 9-1-1 dispatcher, how many 7-11 clerks do you hope show up?

I can't give you fire numbers, but approximately 150 police officers are killed in the United States annually. Of those, about 60% are murdered. You think that because this number is low (your opinion not mine) police work is not dangerous. You could not be more wrong. Police and firemen put themselves in dangerous situations daily and the reason more of them aren't killed is because of the training that they have received.

If more 7-11 clerks went through firearms training, and perhaps a little profiling training, they would likely detect and interdict would be robbers before they strike, and if the robbery did occur, they would likely win the gun battle.

Go sit back down on the bottom of your totem pole...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: C ()
Date: July 30, 2007 08:48AM

I believe 7-11's corporate policy does not allow franchise owners/employees
to keep firearms on store proprety.

Has anybody noticed that there's a 7-11 in Fairfax with a Vietnamese guy who
works the nightshift... he used to be a 4-star general in the South Vietnamese
army... I once saw a couple of old guy giving him a full salute.... oh well...




Schrute Wrote:
> If more 7-11 clerks went through firearms
> training

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: fd ()
Date: July 30, 2007 10:37AM

reference the quote earlier about cops stealing county gas duh said "And guess who were the worst offenders? Cops, of course. They even caught one asshole hauling County diesel fuel to Maryland to pour in his heating oil tank!"

I would like to see where you got that information, because I remember reading those same article and if I remeber correctly it was FMD employees stealing gas and it was FCPD that caught them. Please back up your statement before shooting you mouth off dumbass.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: S ()
Date: July 30, 2007 11:02AM

fd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> reference the quote earlier about cops stealing
> county gas duh said "And guess who were the worst
> offenders? Cops, of course. They even caught one
> asshole hauling County diesel fuel to Maryland to
> pour in his heating oil tank!"
>
> I would like to see where you got that
> information, because I remember reading those same
> article and if I remeber correctly it was FMD
> employees stealing gas and it was FCPD that caught
> them. Please back up your statement before
> shooting you mouth off dumbass.


Absolutely correct, fd. It was FMD. This entire website is used for nothing but to bash the FCPD unnecessarily and now they are starting to bash the FCFD. These poor souls feel like they have it so bad here so they come to this website to commiserate and whine.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: July 30, 2007 07:55PM

S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fd Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > reference the quote earlier about cops stealing
> > county gas duh said "And guess who were the
> worst
> > offenders? Cops, of course. They even caught
> one
> > asshole hauling County diesel fuel to Maryland
> to
> > pour in his heating oil tank!"
> >
> > I would like to see where you got that
> > information, because I remember reading those
> same
> > article and if I remeber correctly it was FMD
> > employees stealing gas and it was FCPD that
> caught
> > them. Please back up your statement before
> > shooting you mouth off dumbass.
>
>
> Absolutely correct, fd. It was FMD. This entire
> website is used for nothing but to bash the FCPD
> unnecessarily and now they are starting to bash
> the FCFD. These poor souls feel like they have it
> so bad here so they come to this website to
> commiserate and whine.


I didn't mean to imply that the guy taking County diesel to Maryland was a cop, although I admit I made it sound like it. The article stated that County employees have been ripping off fuel for many years. I'm pretty sure the article also stated that cops were well represented among the thieves.

Prove me wrong...go to washingtonpost.com and type in "Fairfax County fuel thefts" in the archive search. Have your Visa or MasterCard handy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: July 30, 2007 08:36PM

S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fd Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > reference the quote earlier about cops stealing
> > county gas duh said "And guess who were the
> worst
> > offenders? Cops, of course. They even caught
> one
> > asshole hauling County diesel fuel to Maryland
> to
> > pour in his heating oil tank!"
> >
> > I would like to see where you got that
> > information, because I remember reading those
> same
> > article and if I remeber correctly it was FMD
> > employees stealing gas and it was FCPD that
> caught
> > them. Please back up your statement before
> > shooting you mouth off dumbass.
>
>
> Absolutely correct, fd. It was FMD. This entire
> website is used for nothing but to bash the FCPD
> unnecessarily and now they are starting to bash
> the FCFD. These poor souls feel like they have it
> so bad here so they come to this website to
> commiserate and whine.

I have nothing against the cops or firefighters, other than they the take the "We're heroes" thing a bit too far.

I've only ever had one bad experience with FCPD (in 58 years here)....the morning my mother died. For some reason, 4 cops showed up with the EMS people, and immediately started some kind of "investigation"...I almost lost it when they asked my father for his drivers license. Here is an 84 year old man (an amputee), whose wife of over 60 years had just been taken away in an ambulance very near death, he is INSIDE his home of 55 years...and these morons are checking IDs...like they had just busted a teen-aged beer bash? I couldn't believe it.

But it wasn't over, we (pop, sister, and I) were in a hurry to get to the hospital, to check on mom. The cops told us to just go ahead on...they'd lock the door when they left. SAY WHAT??? AND LEAVE THEM THERE ALONE in the house???

Absolutely not....no way. So, I had to stay and watch these guys...and mom was dead by the time I arrived at the hospital. A bunch of "heroes" alright...

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: low man on totem pole ()
Date: July 30, 2007 09:22PM

Stop whining about how tough the job is, it is in the job description when you sign on.

"When a "scary man" breaks in your house in the middle of the night and you hide in your closet and whisper to the 9-1-1 dispatcher, how many 7-11 clerks do you hope show up"

No worries there, I do my own protection. I am well aware of how long it can take the cops to show up. You and all Americans would be better off if you plan to protect yourself first and then call the cops.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: 4wheeler ()
Date: July 30, 2007 09:49PM

>
> No worries there, I do my own protection. I am
> well aware of how long it can take the cops to
> show up. You and all Americans would be better off
> if you plan to protect yourself first and then
> call the cops.


i knew it was a matter of time for a pro-gun idiot to start talking about how much better it would be it we all get guns and turn fairfax into a wild west town ....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: low man on totem pole ()
Date: July 30, 2007 10:08PM

Better I should run around with my phone on speed dial to 911? Give me a break. You have a suggestion of a better way.

Too bad the doctor in Conn didnt have a few weapons in his house, he could have sent the two pieces of scum to the nearest funeral home. Instead he is alive and his wife and two daughters are dead. No one knows if a guh would have made a difference but since his family it couldnt have been worse.

I have no problem with the police or fire departments. I am aware that between the time I call the police and they dispatch someone and that someone gets to my place alot can happen. Am I wrong to try to protect myself.

I do have a problem with someone who attaches themself to the fire fighters in New York on 9-11 and because they acted in a heroic manner then everyone in that profession is deemed a hero. It just doesnt work that way.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: S ()
Date: July 30, 2007 10:09PM

duh Wrote:

>
> I have nothing against the cops or firefighters,
> other than they the take the "We're heroes" thing
> a bit too far.
>
> I've only ever had one bad experience with FCPD
> (in 58 years here)....the morning my mother died.
> For some reason, 4 cops showed up with the EMS
> people, and immediately started some kind of
> "investigation"...I almost lost it when they asked
> my father for his drivers license. Here is an 84
> year old man (an amputee), whose wife of over 60
> years had just been taken away in an ambulance
> very near death, he is INSIDE his home of 55
> years...and these morons are checking IDs...like
> they had just busted a teen-aged beer bash? I
> couldn't believe it.
>
> But it wasn't over, we (pop, sister, and I) were
> in a hurry to get to the hospital, to check on
> mom. The cops told us to just go ahead
> on...they'd lock the door when they left. SAY
> WHAT??? AND LEAVE THEM THERE ALONE in the
> house???
>
> Absolutely not....no way. So, I had to stay and
> watch these guys...and mom was dead by the time I
> arrived at the hospital. A bunch of "heroes"
> alright...


Duh,

ANY death in Fairfax County will result in the police being dispatched, in most cases even in a retirement homes if you can believe that. Also, any death will result in some type of investigation.

The police need to make sure nothing out of the ordinary has occurred. They do this by asking questions, asking medical history, use of medications, etc.

Why do they do this? To rule out ANY chance of foul play, even when it appears quite obvious what happened.

Here's a hypothetical for you. Suppose an elderly relative of yours lived in a retirement home. If that loved one suddenly died how would you feel if the police just dismissed the death as "aw, he was old and was bound to die anyway" and never looked into it? Then all of a sudden it's found out one day that a nurse overmedicated your loved one on purpose (this has happened before, even in Fairfax County.) The police never showed up to gain any particulars of the case and now your loved one is dead and buried. What to do now?

See my point?

Yes, to the untrained eye of the typical citizen it may seem unnecessary but what the police were doing was absolutely proper procedure, in any jurisdiction, in any state in the US. If the police don't don't follow up with some kind of investigation, even when the cause of death seems obvious, some people in this country would absolutely get away with murder.

As to why all of those police officers showed up? I can tell you that in just about any case a supervisor and two patrol units are dispatched to any death case. There could have been four officers there because one of the officers may have been in training and riding with a veteran officer, thus bringing the total to four. Just a guess, but I'm willing to wager that's why.

They needed to ID your father for a couple of different reasons. Number one, they needed his information for the death report, especially if he was the last one to see your mother alive. Number two, in almost all death cases the police look for an attending physician to discuss the case with. That physician is then asked if he or she is willing to sign the death certificate. By signing the death certificate that is the legal release of the body back to the family so arrangements can be made. If a doctor refuses to sign the death certificate the case will become a medical examiner case and the body will not be turned over to the family at that time. Instead, it will be transported to the morgue and the medical examiner may perform an autopsy to determine cause of death.

By the police offering to lock up for you I'm sure it was just an attempt to be polite and let you get to the hospital when you needed to. Legally, once 911 is called and the police enter your home they have every legal right to stay there as long as they need to - whether you want them to or not - until the investigation is over. If the police leave the scene and then have to come back they may be required to obtain a search warrant at that time.

I hope this clears it up for you. It sounds as what they did was by the book. Sorry if you didn't like it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: S ()
Date: July 30, 2007 10:42PM

Duh,

Regarding the fuel theft, I strongly believe you are mistaken. An audit indicated abnormalities in fuel consumption. The police were contacted. A sting was conducted, and a facilities maintainance employee was caught. The only thing I could find was an old press release. See for yourself...

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/011106fuel.htm

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: July 30, 2007 11:13PM

Thanks S, I guess it makes sense when the assumption is that everybody is a criminal. I often wonder what would have happened if we had been successful in our quest to get pop to give up his drivers license? Would the storm troopers have hauled him in for fingerprinting, or whatever they do?

I suppose the answer is DON'T die at home. I'm not buying your contention that even nursing home deaths get this treatment. Pop was in a nursing home for a year before dying there. I visited him most every day and spent hundreds and hundreds of hours in that awful place....dozens of people died within a 100 feet of him during that period. I never saw a ONE, SINGLE cop in the place, ever.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: S ()
Date: July 30, 2007 11:39PM

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks S, I guess it makes sense when the
> assumption is that everybody is a criminal. I
> often wonder what would have happened if we had
> been successful in our quest to get pop to give up
> his drivers license? Would the storm troopers
> have hauled him in for fingerprinting, or whatever
> they do?
>
> I suppose the answer is DON'T die at home. I'm
> not buying your contention that even nursing home
> deaths get this treatment. Pop was in a nursing
> home for a year before dying there. I visited him
> most every day and spent hundreds and hundreds of
> hours in that awful place....dozens of people died
> within a 100 feet of him during that period. I
> never saw a ONE, SINGLE cop in the place, ever.

Yep, you got me Duh. I spent all that time typing that in response to you in hopes you might understand just to LIE about it and concoct a story.

Not every nursing home death warrants a police response, duh. If a physician is on duty the police usually will not respond. I suppose I should have included that to my earlier response but I doubt it would have made a difference to you. You have your opinion and nothing will ever change it. And please, don't ever let facts get in the way of your opinions.

I tried to be polite about it in an effort to help you understand but I guess that's not even enough for you to still jump to conclusions about "storm troopers" and "assuming everyone is a criminal." Perhaps I should have just responded to you like the vast majority of people on this site by labeling you with an obscenity? That seems to be the only thing people understand around here.

Good grief...

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: July 30, 2007 11:42PM

S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duh,
>
> Regarding the fuel theft, I strongly believe you
> are mistaken. An audit indicated abnormalities in
> fuel consumption. The police were contacted. A
> sting was conducted, and a facilities maintainance
> employee was caught. The only thing I could find
> was an old press release. See for yourself...
>
> http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/report
> s2006/011106fuel.htm

That guy must have gotten greedy....or somebody turned him in.....the County suspects that hundreds were involved, for years.

Here's part of that Post article (you have to pay to see the rest)

The Washington Post - Washington, D.C.
Author: Lisa Rein - Washington Post Staff Writer
Date: Nov 30, 2006
Start Page: B.1
Section: METRO
Document Types: News
Text Word Count: 880

The county's auditor and several county supervisors say they suspect the abuse of fuel pumps by employees assigned government cars went on for years. They are uncertain how many workers were involved -- it could have been hundreds -- or how much fuel was stolen, inflating a monthly fuel bill that has doubled in three years because of rising prices.

Police followed him to his home in Shady Side, where he planned to use the diesel to heat his home, officials said. Coup, 36, was fired, and he was found guilty of embezzlement in August. He made restitution for hundreds of gallons of stolen fuel, auditor John Adair said. Another employee was charged with stealing fuel, although Adair and police officials could not provide details.

The projected fuel savings in the report represent 1.87 percent of the 3.9 million gallons of fuel consumed each year by the county's fleet of 3,500 cars and trucks, including police and fire vehicles and those used by homeless-outreach and park workers. But fuel consumption started to drop as soon as the county made it harder for employees to fill up their government cars.



As I recall, the article said that there was a code to override the Fuel Force system (like if the equipment had no vehcle number or odometer). Turns out, many many employees knew this code and used it for years to steal fuel.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: fcpdeatsdick ()
Date: July 31, 2007 12:24AM

I wouldnt call the fairfax county revenue collectors aka fcpd if some shitbags broke into my house. The people in this house are able to protect themselves thanks to the second amendment and smith & wesson. Same goes for personal protection any where else I go in Va.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: 4wheeler ()
Date: July 31, 2007 02:31AM

yeap....like i said...blah-blah 2nd amendment...lalalala my constitutional rights yadayada i love the nra ....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Schrute ()
Date: July 31, 2007 10:12AM

low man on totem pole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stop whining about how tough the job is, it is in
> the job description when you sign on.
>
> "When a "scary man" breaks in your house in the
> middle of the night and you hide in your closet
> and whisper to the 9-1-1 dispatcher, how many 7-11
> clerks do you hope show up"
>
> No worries there, I do my own protection. I am
> well aware of how long it can take the cops to
> show up. You and all Americans would be better off
> if you plan to protect yourself first and then
> call the cops.

The average response time for the Fairfax County Police Department, to priority 1 calls (rape, robbery, shooting, etc) is 4 minutes. The Fire Department has one of the fastest response times in the nation! Sooooo, once again you spread your rhetoric without looking into the facts first. Obviously, you and I will not agree, so I guess we can close our banter by agreeing to disagree.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: low man on totem pole ()
Date: July 31, 2007 04:55PM

Where is the rhetoric? I choose to prepare myself for something bad that might happen. By your logic I should toss my fire extenguisher out the window too, better to hope the fire department gets here in time.

What is wrong with a person owning a gun for home protection? I would guess DC being a congested area probably has an even lower response time but yet they have murder after murder. Last week they had an "all hands on deck" to prevent the escalating crime yet seven people were shot in one incident. I have no problem with the police, I choose to be prepared for things that might happen. Do I think the cops will show up when I call, yes. Will it be in time to save my ass, who knows. No one is making you buy a gun or do anything you dont want to.

You may want to look back on the Rodney King riots in L A. The cops refused to respond to requests for help. The Korean shop owners armed themselves and thus their stores were some of the very few saved from looting. FYI the people who were so strongly against guns and thought the cops would come to the rescue found out they couldnt buy guns due to waiting periods.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: 4wheelereatscock ()
Date: July 31, 2007 05:19PM

And whats wrong with being prepared to defend yourself and your family ? I dont necessarily need a weapon but it certainly levels the playing field a little bit.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: peplum ()
Date: July 31, 2007 06:13PM

Quit acting like fucking dickheads, who cares if they buy a helicopter?? Its there money and they can buy whagtever they want with it. Ever see what a helicopter can do??? Dumbasses.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: July 31, 2007 06:25PM

In yesterday's Washington Post, there's an article about a jurisdictional dispute between the State of Maryland and P. G. County over the new National Harbor project going up in Smoot Bay (W W Bridge).

But anyway, the funny part is PG County has ordered a half million dollar fireboat and several police boats! LOL

Have they not heard that this stretch of the Potomac River is ALREADY capably served by FCFD FireBoat 420 and the Fairfax Marine Patrol?? Or do PG officials not want to be left on the pier on nice summer weekends?

Sheesh, at this rate, you'll soon be able to walk across the Potomac just by stepping on fire and police boats!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Highlander ()
Date: July 31, 2007 09:47PM

I think duh's wife got banged by a cop, on a fireboat with a helicopter overhead.....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: July 31, 2007 11:06PM

Highlander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think duh's wife got banged by a cop, on a
> fireboat with a helicopter overhead.....


You have to have a brain to think, douchebag.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: low man on totem pole ()
Date: August 01, 2007 12:06PM

"who cares if they buy a helicopter?? Its there money and they can buy whagtever they want with it"

Maybe Duh pays a lot in taxes. The "there money" you speak of is the taxpayers money. It wasnt that long ago there was a jurisdictional fight with Montgomery County Fire and Fairfax over who got to rescue some dumbass that fell into Great Falls. Maybe Fairfax can justify all the toys and maybe they cant, but the taxpayers footing the bill should have some input. Giving the reason as "becasue we say we need it" just doesnt cut it anymore with rising taxes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Kobersteen ()
Date: August 01, 2007 12:42PM

low man on totem pole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It wasnt that
> long ago there was a jurisdictional fight with
> Montgomery County Fire and Fairfax over who got to
> rescue some dumbass that fell into Great Falls.


I'd be interested in hearing more on this.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: low man on totem pole ()
Date: August 01, 2007 01:46PM

Check with some of the paid members at station one in Mclean. It didnt make the paper of course. Fairfax was supposed to have started to put boats in the water for the rescue at the same time as Montgomery County and Montgomery County ordered them off. The Potomac at that area is Montgomery County.

As sensative as you are to this you must be a tick. For those not aware a tick is a volunteer fire fighter.

The time frame was maybe two to three years ago. I apoligize for saying recently but since I have a few years left before retirement I think in terms of years and not days or months. To me recently can be anything in the last five years.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Jester ()
Date: August 01, 2007 02:12PM

Kobersteen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> low man on totem pole Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It wasnt that
> > long ago there was a jurisdictional fight with
> > Montgomery County Fire and Fairfax over who got
> to
> > rescue some dumbass that fell into Great Falls.
>

If we would had a Fairfax fire helicopter we could used to run interfence on the Montgomery boat while the Fairfax fire boat resuced the guy!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Kobersteen ()
Date: August 01, 2007 03:00PM

low man on totem pole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> As sensative as you are to this you must be a
> tick. For those not aware a tick is a volunteer
> fire fighter.

Sensitive? All I did was ask for more info on it. Sounds like you are the sensitive one.

Also, if you think I am a tick even though I do not hide behind a screen name, you have bigger problems than making it those few years to retirement.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: MBF ()
Date: August 01, 2007 04:13PM

As sensative as you are to this you must be a tick. For those not aware a tick is a volunteer fire fighter

I just had someone check the county employee directory; he's definitely not a tick...not that I personally think any less of Vol. Firefighters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2007 04:14PM by MBF.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Lurker. ()
Date: August 01, 2007 04:39PM


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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Kobersteen ()
Date: August 01, 2007 05:28PM

Lurker. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_K-K6o5cGc

Thanks for the link, Lurker.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: 4wheeler ()
Date: August 02, 2007 06:11AM

4wheelereatscock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And whats wrong with being prepared to defend
> yourself and your family ? I dont necessarily need
> a weapon but it certainly levels the playing field
> a little bit.


Right ... you are at work rubbing your little gun showing off, someone breaks in your house and robs, and hurts your family....what's going to be your response then?

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: 4wheeler ()
Date: August 02, 2007 01:36PM

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Highlander Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think duh's wife got banged by a cop, on a
> > fireboat with a helicopter overhead.....
>
>
> You have to have a brain to think, douchebag.


obviously you don't need one to post here, jackass

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: low man on totem pole ()
Date: August 02, 2007 05:03PM

"Right ... you are at work rubbing your little gun showing off, someone breaks in your house and robs, and hurts your family....what's going to be your response then?"

And the alternative is what? You really should worry about your own little world and not how prepared or unprepared I am. I havent yet seen a suggestion from you as to how to properly defend my home or family other than to dial 911. If that is all you can think of?

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: 4wheeler ()
Date: August 02, 2007 05:21PM

I guess the best thing to do is do some camo face painting, get some mre's, load up my guns and barricade myself....yeap .... that makes more sense.
Is that your option?? play rambo in your head and think of the "what if's" and walk around the house in your camo boxer shorts with your gun belt waiting for someone to break in so you can "let them have it"?? ..

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: low man on totem pole ()
Date: August 02, 2007 05:34PM

I will order you some backup batteries for your cell phone so you can call 911 everytime you hear a bump in the night. I am sure the cops will love coming to your place every other night because you are crying like a french school girl.

And your option is???

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: 4wheeler ()
Date: August 02, 2007 07:07PM

i guess my option would be to get off my bed holding a gun aming at the shadows...is that what you do? ...it's that why you have a gun??? obviously it makes you feel like a real man, eh? you are alot of talk because you "own a gun" and anyone with out a gun cries like a french school girl?? ha! you are pathetic.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: August 02, 2007 07:14PM

So, is Fire Boat 420 en route to Minneapolis to help out? The on-scene rescue craft shown in media coverage are clearly substandard.

And on the way home 420's crew could stop for a little R&R at one of the nice casinos on the lower Mississippi!

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Kobersteen ()
Date: August 02, 2007 08:07PM

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, is Fire Boat 420 en route to Minneapolis to
> help out? The on-scene rescue craft shown in
> media coverage are clearly substandard.

You must be getting different reports than me... I don't see where their boats are substandard. Then again, I don't have a 57 foot motor yacht, so I guess I am substandard too.

My understanding is that Fire Boat 420 serves the general area where it is docked. I also do not know that any of the personnel assigned to the Fire Boat are dive certified, which is what is needed, from what I see. Then again, if they did travel, like our USAR team does, you'd most likely bitch about that too.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Back to Basics ()
Date: August 02, 2007 08:43PM

I heard Ms.Chiles from Lorton is a real fan of the fire department. God bless her soul!

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: August 02, 2007 09:04PM

Kobersteen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> duh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So, is Fire Boat 420 en route to Minneapolis to
> > help out? The on-scene rescue craft shown in
> > media coverage are clearly substandard.
>
> You must be getting different reports than me... I
> don't see where their boats are substandard. Then
> again, I don't have a 57 foot motor yacht, so I
> guess I am substandard too.
>
> My understanding is that Fire Boat 420 serves the
> general area where it is docked. I also do not
> know that any of the personnel assigned to the
> Fire Boat are dive certified, which is what is
> needed, from what I see. Then again, if they did
> travel, like our USAR team does, you'd most likely
> bitch about that too.

I sure would bitch about USAR, if that's the bunch that went to Bam Iran ....imagine County tax dollars spent on a place that would nuke us tomorrow if they could! Unbelievable!

FYI...you keep mentioning my boat....in quotes. She's not what you think...she is a 57 foot Chris*Craft Constellation built in 1968 and powered by her original pair of 8V-71T Detroit Diesels. There were several models...mine is the FDMY...or "flush deck motor yacht"....really, that's what Chris Craft called them.

I've owned her for 33 years and am quite proud of her. But despite her Bristol condition and extensive equipment list...she's still a wood boat...and worth probably no more than $100-125K. Much less than a new Sea Ray clorox bottle less than half her size.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: derrik ()
Date: August 02, 2007 09:56PM

duh,

ok so you have no idea what you are talking about. the whole deal with Urban Search and Rescue (USAR) is that it is totally funded my FEMA and the federal government.

No county tax dollars are spent at al during a FEMA deployment. in fact FEMA even reimburses the county for the overtime to cover the posistions of the team members that are deployed.

so before you open your uninformed mouth get that facts. the USAR team is an excellent resource. I mean think about it county residents get the protection of an urban search and rescue team with all the personell and equipment availible 24/7 to cover the county at not county cost.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Space Ghost ()
Date: August 02, 2007 09:58PM

> Has anybody noticed that there's a 7-11 in Fairfax
> with a Vietnamese guy who
> works the nightshift... he used to be a 4-star
> general in the South Vietnamese
> army... I once saw a couple of old guy giving him
> a full salute.... oh well...

No, I don't know about that, but remember that famous execution photo from Vietnam, of the guy with the revolver against his head? The executioner came here and he used to run a pizza place. Apparently he died in Burke in 1998.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyen_Ngoc_Loan

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: August 02, 2007 10:16PM

derrik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> duh,
>
> ok so you have no idea what you are talking about.
> the whole deal with Urban Search and Rescue (USAR)
> is that it is totally funded my FEMA and the
> federal government.
>
> No county tax dollars are spent at al during a
> FEMA deployment. in fact FEMA even reimburses the
> county for the overtime to cover the posistions of
> the team members that are deployed.
>
> so before you open your uninformed mouth get that
> facts. the USAR team is an excellent resource. I
> mean think about it county residents get the
> protection of an urban search and rescue team with
> all the personell and equipment availible 24/7 to
> cover the county at not county cost.

I don't believe that for a second. (I'm a retired GS'er...I know the rhetoric). Plus, we haven't had a bad earthquake around here in years.

But even if true...right here in this thread is a video about there's not enough guys on a fire trucks. How does sending them to Iran help staffing?

Hey, different question for FCFD people. My retirement gig is with FCPS. How come when we call EMS because a kid fainted, or skinned their knee...do 2 or 3 fire engines usually accompany the ambulance....with the full treatment of lights and honkin' horns and all that. We tell 911 EXACTLY what's going on, so it ain't that...

It just seems like overkill.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Lester Burnham ()
Date: August 02, 2007 10:32PM

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> derrik Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > duh,
> >
> > ok so you have no idea what you are talking
> about.
> > the whole deal with Urban Search and Rescue
> (USAR)
> > is that it is totally funded my FEMA and the
> > federal government.
> >
> > No county tax dollars are spent at al during a
> > FEMA deployment. in fact FEMA even reimburses
> the
> > county for the overtime to cover the posistions
> of
> > the team members that are deployed.
> >
> > so before you open your uninformed mouth get
> that
> > facts. the USAR team is an excellent resource.
> I
> > mean think about it county residents get the
> > protection of an urban search and rescue team
> with
> > all the personell and equipment availible 24/7
> to
> > cover the county at not county cost.
>
> I don't believe that for a second. (I'm a retired
> GS'er...I know the rhetoric). Plus, we haven't
> had a bad earthquake around here in years.
>
> But even if true...right here in this thread is a
> video about there's not enough guys on a fire
> trucks. How does sending them to Iran help
> staffing?

Believe what you want about USAR funding, but it at minimum a wash with regard to costs and the additional training provided to USAR team members benefits all county residents. While there may not be that many trench, high angle or collapse rescues in FXCO, people should know that this is one of the best places in the country for it to happen. The resources and skilled professionals within the FCFD are second to none and since we are likely to be at ground zero for the next terror attacks I am glad that they are here.

I am neither a career nor volunteer firefighter, but I was a volunteer for more than 10 years in FXCO and have been an EMT in other parts of the country since 1978. This thread has gotten WAY off topic and it would be nice if the "cops and firefighters are overpaid and they should not be wasting taxpayer dollars with take home vehicles" crowd just thanked these folks for doing a good job and then STFU.

I feel better now!

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: TheMeeper ()
Date: August 02, 2007 10:33PM

The executioner came here and he used to run a pizza place

Nguyen Ngoc Loan. He's no hero, but what he did was legal under the Geneva conventions. He executed a war criminal (the guy wasn't wearing a uniform). Sick, but at least he was following the Geneva coventions, not like the jerkoffs running our current war.

I think it's pretty cool he came here and led a 'normal' life.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: low man on totem pole ()
Date: August 02, 2007 10:39PM

"i guess my option would be to get off my bed holding a gun aming at the shadows...is that what you do? ...it's that why you have a gun??? obviously it makes you feel like a real man, eh? you are alot of talk because you "own a gun" and anyone with out a gun cries like a french school girl?? ha! you are pathetic."

Your option is to go cry to your mommy like you probably did when bullies kicked your ass around the block everyday after school. Back then you had your mommy call 911 today you are a grown man so you call 911 yourself when bullies threaten you. But not everyone crys like a french school girl, just you prom queen.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: KeepOnTruckin ()
Date: August 02, 2007 11:57PM

> Hey, different question for FCFD people. My
> retirement gig is with FCPS. How come when we
> call EMS because a kid fainted, or skinned their
> knee...do 2 or 3 fire engines usually accompany
> the ambulance....with the full treatment of lights
> and honkin' horns and all that. We tell 911
> EXACTLY what's going on, so it ain't that...
>
> It just seems like overkill.


Heres a piece of literature from the fire dept:

"Why did you send a fire engine when i called for an ambulance to get medical help?"
"Sometimes a fire engine or fire truck will arrive first becuase it is the closest emergency equipment to the scene. While waiting for advanced life support unit to get there, the fire fighters and emt's will render whatever aid is neceesary. Along with basic medical equip, all fire engines have AEDs...Additionaly all paramedic engines are equiped wih specialized ALS equip that can be used in any life-thretening emergency. Teamwork is essential part of emergency operations and all of teh people in the emergency scen are trained to function as a lifesaving team."

Does that answer your question? i hope so becuase that took liek five mins to type up.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: duh ()
Date: August 03, 2007 12:54AM

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Hey, different question for FCFD people. My
> > retirement gig is with FCPS. How come when we
> > call EMS because a kid fainted, or skinned
> their
> > knee...do 2 or 3 fire engines usually accompany
> > the ambulance....with the full treatment of
> lights
> > and honkin' horns and all that. We tell 911
> > EXACTLY what's going on, so it ain't that...
> >
> > It just seems like overkill.
>
>
> Heres a piece of literature from the fire dept:
>
> "Why did you send a fire engine when i called for
> an ambulance to get medical help?"
> "Sometimes a fire engine or fire truck will
> arrive first becuase it is the closest emergency
> equipment to the scene. While waiting for advanced
> life support unit to get there, the fire fighters
> and emt's will render whatever aid is neceesary.
> Along with basic medical equip, all fire engines
> have AEDs...Additionaly all paramedic engines are
> equiped wih specialized ALS equip that can be used
> in any life-thretening emergency. Teamwork is
> essential part of emergency operations and all of
> teh people in the emergency scen are trained to
> function as a lifesaving team."
>
> Does that answer your question? i hope so becuase
> that took liek five mins to type up.


Yeah, but I'm talking about the ambulance arriving first with the apparati bringin' up the rear. Plus, these are bullshit calls that would never even be made except for the fact that FCPS is scared shitless of the parents.

You sure it's not just that the fellas like to go for fire engine rides and don't need much of an excuse to do so?

Thanks, Truckin

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: 4wheeler ()
Date: August 03, 2007 06:40AM

low man on totem pole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "i guess my option would be to get off my bed
> holding a gun aming at the shadows...is that what
> you do? ...it's that why you have a gun???
> obviously it makes you feel like a real man, eh?
> you are alot of talk because you "own a gun" and
> anyone with out a gun cries like a french school
> girl?? ha! you are pathetic."
>
> Your option is to go cry to your mommy like you
> probably did when bullies kicked your ass around
> the block everyday after school. Back then you had
> your mommy call 911 today you are a grown man so
> you call 911 yourself when bullies threaten you.
> But not everyone crys like a french school girl,
> just you prom queen.


Not surprise of your comment. That's all you are able to say since you are, like a said, the typical "i am a real man because i have a gun". Maybe that's why you got a gun, since you were probably harrassed at school and since you were unable to defend yourself, you got a gun for, what is that line again, oh yeah "protect yourself" See how that works?
No, i didn't get beat up at school and no i don't cry to mommy to call 911 and NO, i don't need a gun in my pocket to make me feel like a man...

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Lester Burnham ()
Date: August 03, 2007 08:54AM

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, but I'm talking about the ambulance arriving
> first with the apparati bringin' up the rear.
> Plus, these are bullshit calls that would never
> even be made except for the fact that FCPS is
> scared shitless of the parents.
>
> You sure it's not just that the fellas like to go
> for fire engine rides and don't need much of an
> excuse to do so?
>
> Thanks, Truckin


Given that a lot of firefighter injuries occur on the way to the incident scene in vehicle accidents, I would think that good judgment would keep them in the house unless the dispatch protocol requested the units. Alarm bells at Tyson's, Fair Oaks or Fairfax Hospital may get a sizable response, but the alternative of NOT having the correct apparatus on scene is a bigger risk to life safety and property.

Your know only one side of the story in the FCPS example, but I don't think that the reason stemmed from firefighters wanting to take a ride.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Jester ()
Date: August 03, 2007 09:46AM

No the fire department cannot have a helicopter! These helicopters are a fortune to run per hour.

I see the police helicopter just sitting most of the time. Why don't they just share the current county helicopter. We'll paint one side red and one side blue, depending upon what type of call it is it can land fire colors to the action or police colors.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Lester Burnham ()
Date: August 03, 2007 09:52AM

Jester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No the fire department cannot have a helicopter!
> These helicopters are a fortune to run per hour.
>
> I see the police helicopter just sitting most of
> the time. Why don't they just share the current
> county helicopter. We'll paint one side red and
> one side blue, depending upon what type of call it
> is it can land fire colors to the action or police
> colors.

Did you read any of the earlier postings or just the thread title? The count helicopters (there are 2) belong to the police department, but are used on EMS calls for the fire department as necessary. Are they in the air 24/7? No, but neither are all of the fire engines and EMS units.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Jester ()
Date: August 03, 2007 10:07AM

You're suppose to read the comments in the thread before posting opinions?

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: KeepOnTruckin ()
Date: August 03, 2007 10:47PM

lol. yeah if the fire dept needs one soo badly, they can repaint one of teh police choppers. Seeign as how we arent in FL or CA i dont see a good reason for the dre dept to ahve one. Not a lot of swift water rescues (except the potomac, but what are teh police choppers for) and not a lot of forest fires to drop water on. So whats the purpose?

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: ? ()
Date: August 05, 2007 09:49PM

has anyone actually been able to verify that the FFX FD is actually requesting a helicopter? or are we just going on what a friend of a friend of a friend's uncle told them at glory days one night in a drunken haze?

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: derrik ()
Date: August 05, 2007 10:39PM

no i have been uable to verify.

like i said in my first post i heard this from a fire captain who works in the massey building. he told me the idea is to have a regional medical helicopter staffed and funded by fairfax fire operated w/ a medical helicopter company (most likely candidate in my mind whould be PHI who also operates Air CARE associated w/ INOVA Hospital System).

the goal of this would be to take medevac from the police department. from what i understand this is in the planning stages, and hasnt even gotten to the board of supervisors yet. this plan made me so mad i thought thet best thing to do would be to post here, tell the board of supervisors and hopefully nip this waste of taxpayer money in the bud, before it has a chance to get out of control.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Schrute ()
Date: August 07, 2007 04:41AM

I think Cary should get a helo for Fairfax Underground. It can be used to drop propaganda leaflets to the community and track Gravis so no more children have to be hurt...

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: WebGeek ()
Date: August 07, 2007 06:15PM

derrik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> no i have been uable to verify.
>
> like i said in my first post i heard this from a
> fire captain who works in the massey building. he
> told me the idea is to have a regional medical
> helicopter staffed and funded by fairfax fire
> operated w/ a medical helicopter company (most
> likely candidate in my mind whould be PHI who also
> operates Air CARE associated w/ INOVA Hospital
> System).
>
> the goal of this would be to take medevac from the
> police department. from what i understand this is
> in the planning stages, and hasnt even gotten to
> the board of supervisors yet. this plan made me so
> mad i thought thet best thing to do would be to
> post here, tell the board of supervisors and
> hopefully nip this waste of taxpayer money in the
> bud, before it has a chance to get out of control.


Fairfax County F&R Department is an agency that bills for EMS services. If this helicopter is planned on being purchased, they will bill for transport. The success of the EMS Billing has gotten some of the admin folks happy and maybe they are thinking they can generate more revenue for the county by adding this service.

The police department has two helicopters, so that if one breaks the other can be used in its place. They provide one crew 24/7 to respond to police and fire events. They do not charge for EMS transports.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: KeepOnTruckin ()
Date: August 07, 2007 06:25PM

i always wondered about htat. my FCPD propaganda said they dont charge for any EMS transport but then i heard they changed that.

So they charge for ambulance transport but not helicopter tranport? got it.

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Re: now the fire dept wants a helicopter!?!?!
Posted by: Lester Burnham ()
Date: August 07, 2007 09:57PM

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i always wondered about htat. my FCPD propaganda
> said they dont charge for any EMS transport but
> then i heard they changed that.
>
> So they charge for ambulance transport but not
> helicopter tranport? got it.


Does anyone know how the EMS transport fee is charged? My understanding is that it was sent to your insurance carrier, but if they refused or paid a lesser amount the balance was written off by the county rather than chasing down residents.

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