I'm convinced more areas of the county need something like Providence District Council and http://www.southcountyfederation.com/

so there is a larger voice - absent for Floris and Mcnair and Fox Mill etc.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Until just a few years ago, the curr... Even the SLPTA refers to
> white flight.

numbers on private schools? MIA.
>
> ... Some have attributed it to kids at
> GT centers going back to base high schools. Are
> there really 50-70 of those each year? Dunno

these numbers should have been distributed at all meetings in a spreadsheet for all schools. Gibson has 3 GT centers in reston when there could be elementary boundary changes that provide non FRPM base school students. Hunters Woods magnet and the gtc overload that school to avoid base school boundary changes. Same for Forest Edge and the Gt center.



>... While I intuitively agree with you, Bruce asserts
> that 45 more kids placed into SL for academics
> than placed out for academics.

That's not true since Farling's department gave numbers on all schools. When you look at those pupil placements plus exception to rides [if they gave them out on stuff like the TJ bus] you can see where there was/is a natural ebb and flow.

South Lakes academic pupil placement has
AP,IB,curriculum= in 43 less out 54 for net loss of 11
Where every one went might indicate which schools or areas have a geographic relationship with resdiences in the South Lakes attendance area:
herndon 26 -14=12 SL gain
langley 2 -9=-7 SL loss
mclean 0-5=-5 SL loss
madison 3-16=-13 SL loss
chantilly 1-0=1 SL gain
oakton 8-6= 2 SL gain
westfield 3-3=0
marshall 0-1=-1 [IB?]

Now where are those applied for /granted/refused exception to rides at the high school level for Tj and the pupil placements? Then we will have even more insight into which schools have historical business dealing with neighbors.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restonian Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FME Mom Wrote:
> > >
> > > It IS a recent change to the RA policy to
> allow
> > > alterations to housing. Heck, my mom got a
> > > citation from RA because her replacement
> > shutters
> > > were not the "right" shade of red. It has
> only
> > > been within the past 5 or so years that the
> > > restrictions were loosened.
> >
> > No, we just finished the thirteenth renovation
> on
> > our house. It was first added on to in 1976.
> > Additions and renovations have followed every
> few
> > years since.
>
> And RA has approved all of these?
>
> You've done major renovations on your home 13
> times and never had a problem getting RA to
> approve?
>
> What's wrong with this story? lol How do we
> count the ways?
>
> Who the hell renovates their home 13 times?
> Couldn't get it right the first 10 or 12 times?
> And who lives in the same house for 31 years? And
> who in Reston is permitted to change the outside
> of their house, 13 times? And who would bother?
> If the house needs that much work, every 2+ years,
> normal people would have moved, decades ago.

There goes Neen, arguing with and calling a liar anyone who dares disagree with her. I told you to beware the backlash.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2007 10:38AM by SLVerity.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Foreum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To reiterate IB's current status as a magnet
> > programme, look at FCPS Regulation 7101.7,
> > effective 09-21-07. It lists the reasons for
> > "REQUEST FOR EXCEPTION TO RIDE A SCHOOL BUS"
> as:
> > "- Day Care or School-Age Child Care (SACC)
> > - Foreign Language Partial Immersion
> > - International Baccalaureate (IB)
> > - Walker
> > - Other _________________________"
> >

The interesting thing about this policy is that the other programs on the list do not affect the core curriculum at the base school. If you can be transported to an IB base school from an AP base school, what precisely is the rationale for not allowing transport from an IB base school to an AP base school?

Just a guess (-:, the policy creators know that everyone with a wit of sense with IB base schools - which are all high impact - would pupil place AP since they could transport out of those schools. Since AP pupil placements require parents arrange transport to escape, while IB placements are transported in, the ratio of IB placements in to AP placements out is artificially (and highly) inflated.

Question -
With transport out to AP, what would the numbers be?

Answer -
Fairfax doesn't have enough buses.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Foreum Reader Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > To reiterate IB's current status as a magnet
> > > programme, look at FCPS Regulation 7101.7,
> > > effective 09-21-07. It lists the reasons for
> > > "REQUEST FOR EXCEPTION TO RIDE A SCHOOL BUS"
> > as:
> > > "- Day Care or School-Age Child Care (SACC)
> > > - Foreign Language Partial Immersion
> > > - International Baccalaureate (IB)
> > > - Walker
> > > - Other _________________________"
> > >
>
> The interesting thing about this policy is that
> the other programs on the list do not affect the
> core curriculum at the base school. If you can be
> transported to an IB base school from an AP base
> school, what precisely is the rationale for not
> allowing transport from an IB base school to an AP
> base school?
>
> Just a guess (-:, the policy creators know that
> everyone with a wit of sense with IB base schools
> - which are all high impact - would pupil place AP
> since they could transport out of those schools.
> Since AP pupil placements require parents arrange
> transport to escape, while IB placements are
> transported in, the ratio of IB placements in to
> AP placements out is artificially (and highly)
> inflated.
>
> Question -
> With transport out to AP, what would the numbers
> be?
>
> Answer -
> Fairfax doesn't have enough buses.

The county doesn't transport students going to IB HS's nor does it transport for ES language immersion programs. The county does transport to GT centers in ES and MS, ED centers, and TJ. Students requesting to go to an AP HS or an IB HS are NOT provided transportation. I know students in each of these categories, and their parents provide the transportation.

Thomas -

Bruce's numbers may well be correct. However, were he to take into account the differences in transport policies for AP vs IB, I suspect he'd see different results.

Since we are all in the middle of a vast social(ist) experiment, let's test my hypothesis that transport is a significant variable affecting the ratio of in-placements to IB vs out-placements to AP. I think the following would work nicely -

When we redistrict, let's randomly assign the right to transport to AP to half of the redistricted dwellings while leaving the other half with the current transport policy.

Any guesses as to whether there would be more AP outplacements in the transported group?
Any guesses as to what the percentage AP outplacement would be in the transported group?

Note, we could make the experiment even more interesting by varying the length of time transport is provided - one shot, first 5 years, first 10 years, permanently.

Any guesses as to whether the right to transport would be worth enough to show up in differentiated housing values, sales of houses when first child reaches 9th grade, choice of public vs private high school, ...?



Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > And, as even an IB fan would admit, replacing IB
> with AP would help reduce pupil > placements out
> of SLHS post-redistricting.
>
> While I intuitively agree with you, Bruce asserts
> that 45 more kids placed into SL for academics
> than placed out for academics.

the info is wrong Wrote:
> The county doesn't transport students going to IB
> HS's nor does it transport for ES language
> immersion programs. The county does transport to
> GT centers in ES and MS, ED centers, and TJ.
> Students requesting to go to an AP HS or an IB HS
> are NOT provided transportation. I know students
> in each of these categories, and their parents
> provide the transportation.
---------
Dear Wrong,
I refer you again to the written policies. Many parents are not aware of or do not choose to use all the options available to them. If you need them, I will provide you step-by-step instructions on how to access these and other instructions that may be of interest to you.

Regulation 7103.5 (Effective 02-23-04) "Student Transportation—Eligibility, Routes, and Schedules" section III E. states, "Special Programs—Out-of-Base-School Boundary. Students enrolled in elective or designated special programs not located within their base school boundaries may be provided school bus transportation as described below."

One of the subsections reads, "Advanced Placement (AP) / International Baccalaureate (IB) / Pupil Placements (Parental). Transportation is not provided, but students may ride existing school buses if they can safely access an existing bus stop and if space is available. An exception to ride form must be completed by the parents or guardian and approved annually by transportation services."

That was the February 2004 policy. However, Regulation 7101.7, Effective 09-21-07, page 5, contains, "GUIDELINES FOR REQUESTING AN EXCEPTION FOR SCHOOL BUS SERVICE Parent or Guardian: A parent or guardian may request an exception to the transportation policy to allow his or her child to ride a school bus. Two conditions must exist: first, there must be available seating on the bus, and, second, there must be an acceptable walking route to the existing bus stop. Exceptions will be granted only for one destination, five days per week, consistently. A parent should identify the requested school, route number, stop location, and walking route to be used by his or her child. ... A copy of existing bus routes is available at each school for review.... Requests for an exception for transportation may be submitted beginning July 1. A new request must be submitted each year and will be considered on a first-come, first-served basis. The Office of Transportation Services will respond as soon as practical but may need to delay the approval or denial of requests until routes and eligible riders are verified in September. A response should not be expected before October 1."

The actual form "REQUEST FOR EXCEPTION TO RIDE A SCHOOL BUS" TR-52 (8/07) is page 6 of this instruction. The top of the form starts out:
"Check Type of Request
Day Care or School-Age Child Care (SACC)
Foreign Language Partial Immersion
International Baccalaureate (IB)
Walker
Other _________________________"

My point remains vaild. In February 04 both AP and IB were listed as programs for which "students may ride existing school buses" but ONLY IB is listed on the form issued this last fall.

Just received this article from a Floris area parent. It is nice to see that STU GIBSON was not in favor of any redistricting for the folks who reside in NORTH RESTON.

South County School Contract Still Being Negotiated
Difference of Opinion on Solving Overcrowding Issues
By Jennifer Lesinski
January 22, 2003





No contracts have been signed as yet for the public-private partnership construction of the south county high school, said Thomas Brady, Fairfax County Public Schools chief operating officer, at a School Board work session Jan. 13.
A deal between the county supervisors, School Board and private developer is still being worked on that could potentially have the school build on the former Lorton prison site by 2005 instead of 2008 if left to the schools alone.
Brady did say that even though the school-construction contract has yet to be finalized, the school system will be taking advantage of in-kind proffers from another developer, Pulte, who has agreed to do grading and utility work leading up to the school site.
"You might see work going on there, but it is not a groundbreaking or the beginning of the construction of the school," he said.

IN OTHER CAPITAL improvement program (CIP) news, schools staff stressed that the proposed addition at Langley High School is a permanent addition and that there are no plans to change the school's boundaries.
In addition, Brady said that staff will soon be recommending a firm to perform a real-estate assessment that includes a plan for the sale, trade or swap of school system property for existing space that can be leased or purchased to be used as classroom space or administrative centers. The consultant would also be asked to supply alternative funding methods, outside of bonding, for the renovation or construction of school property. One possibility is the purchase or lease of vacant commercial space for an adult education center.
"The hope is by next year's CIP we have a CIP based on the facts as we know them and an alternative [based on the consultant's recommendations]," Brady said.

SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS Rita Thompson and Mychele Brickner, both at-large members, without mentioning the words “boundary change,” suggested the School Board should be looking at reapportioning the attendance areas to address the overcrowding of some schools, while others are underenrolled. The pair did not find support among their fellow members.
"We have overcapacity at Westfield and overcapacity at Langley, and we're under capacity at South Lakes. I understand the political ramifications, but we are responsible to all the taxpayers to show we are being responsible with their money, and we aren't trying to address this," Brickner said.
"A lot of people choose where to live based on the high schools where they live. It has been suggested before that all of Reston should go to South Lakes. North Point Village doesn't want to go to South Lakes. I love South Lakes. I have a daughter who went there and another that is going to graduate from there, but North Point Village doesn't want to go there," said Stuart Gibson (Hunter Mill). "If someone wants to go out in the community and float the idea of a boundary change, go ahead, but I for one will not be supporting that measure."

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the info is wrong Wrote:
> > The county doesn't transport students going to
> IB
> > HS's nor does it transport for ES language
> > immersion programs. The county does transport
> to
> > GT centers in ES and MS, ED centers, and TJ.
> > Students requesting to go to an AP HS or an IB
> HS
> > are NOT provided transportation. I know
> students
> > in each of these categories, and their parents
> > provide the transportation.
> ---------
> Dear Wrong,
> I refer you again to the written policies. Many
> parents are not aware of or do not choose to use
> all the options available to them. If you need
> them, I will provide you step-by-step instructions
> on how to access these and other instructions that
> may be of interest to you.
>
> Regulation 7103.5 (Effective 02-23-04) "Student
> Transportation—Eligibility, Routes, and Schedules"
> section III E. states, "Special
> Programs—Out-of-Base-School Boundary. Students
> enrolled in elective or designated special
> programs not located within their base school
> boundaries may be provided school bus
> transportation as described below."
>
> One of the subsections reads, "Advanced
> Placement (AP) / International Baccalaureate (IB)
> / Pupil Placements (Parental). Transportation is
> not provided, but students may ride existing
> school buses if they can safely access an existing
> bus stop and if space is available. An exception
> to ride form must be completed by the parents or
> guardian and approved annually by transportation
> services."
>
> That was the February 2004 policy. However,
> Regulation 7101.7, Effective 09-21-07, page 5,
> contains, "GUIDELINES FOR REQUESTING AN EXCEPTION
> FOR SCHOOL BUS SERVICE Parent or Guardian: A
> parent or guardian may request an exception to the
> transportation policy to allow his or her child to
> ride a school bus. Two conditions must exist:
> first, there must be available seating on the bus,
> and, second, there must be an acceptable walking
> route to the existing bus stop. Exceptions will
> be granted only for one destination, five days per
> week, consistently. A parent should identify the
> requested school, route number, stop location, and
> walking route to be used by his or her child. ...
> A copy of existing bus routes is available at each
> school for review.... Requests for an exception
> for transportation may be submitted beginning July
> 1. A new request must be submitted each year and
> will be considered on a first-come, first-served
> basis. The Office of Transportation Services will
> respond as soon as practical but may need to delay
> the approval or denial of requests until routes
> and eligible riders are verified in September. A
> response should not be expected before October
> 1."
>
> The actual form "REQUEST FOR EXCEPTION TO RIDE A
> SCHOOL BUS" TR-52 (8/07) is page 6 of this
> instruction. The top of the form starts out:
> "Check Type of Request
> Day Care or School-Age Child Care (SACC)
> Foreign Language Partial Immersion
> International Baccalaureate (IB)
> Walker
> Other _________________________"
>
> My point remains vaild. In February 04 both AP
> and IB were listed as programs for which "students
> may ride existing school buses" but ONLY IB is
> listed on the form issued this last fall.


Hmm. I will have to refer my friends to this. I would assume that Other could indeed include AP.

me again..can't thinkof a decent psue Wrote:
> Hmm. I will have to refer my friends to this. I
> would assume that Other could indeed include AP.
-----------
So one would think. But why is AP not specifically listed? The five categories are printed in two columns which do not format on this thread:
Day Care or School-Age Child Care (SACC)
Foreign Language Partial Immersion / Walker
International Baccalaureate (IB) / Other
So there would be room for AP in the second column.

At the Feb 15th, 2005 Superintendent's Community Advisory Council meeting a member asked why the county was offering bus transportation to pupil-placed IB students but not to pupil-placed AP students. Dr. Dale said something about no bus service because there are more AP schools. When the Council member asked what that meant, Paul Regnier said students can get on a bus to an IB or AP school if space is available but FCPS is not making special IB runs. Jan Leslie said when she was the principal at Herndon HS, students pupil-placed from South Lakes HS WERE taking buses to Herndon HS.The council members agreed that parents and students are not being told that this is possible and that FCPS should do a better job at communicating it.

[I was not present at this meeting. I only have a copy of the minutes.]

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South County School Contract Still Being
> Negotiated
> Difference of Opinion on Solving Overcrowding
> Issues
> By Jennifer Lesinski
> January 22, 2003

In what publication did this story appear?

The comments reported in this news story are a breech of the School Board's Guidelines for their own behavior in boundary study exercises.

Everyone, especially Stu, knew in January 2003 that there would be a boundary change as soon as the SL renovations were complete. In fact, Bruce told me in 2005, he thought it would be done in 2007. I suggested that I couldn't imagine the SB doing it in the year before a School Board election. And guess what, they didn't.

Why would his craveness so blatantly violate the School Board's own guidelines?

Does anyone know if he disputed the story in a later letter to the editor or if there was a subsequent correction?

If not, then this could be additional grounds for recall.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2007 12:58PM by Thomas More.

Unbelieveable - So Stu thinks that rich and influencial folks of North Point, should not attend South Lakes with so many poor students, but the middle class Fox Mill and Floris can!!!.

His double speak is exposed - Balance Socioeconomic characteristics as long as rich people are not effected. Choose the un organized and middle class folks who cant fight back as they are busy working 2 jobs, and hit them hard.

I think it is a shame that the voters elect such "for sale to highest bidder politicians" to office. Politicans such as Stu will support any position as long as they are given enough campiagn contributions. These campaign contributions are then used by these politicians to advertise falsehoods and they get elected again, to serve only the rich campaign contributors. The cycle repeats for ever.

Here is a link from google search.
www.arlingtonconnection.com/article.asp?archive=true&article=14732&paper=73&cat=106


Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > South County School Contract Still Being
> > Negotiated
> > Difference of Opinion on Solving Overcrowding
> > Issues
> > By Jennifer Lesinski
> > January 22, 2003
>
> In what publication did this story appear?
>
> The comments reported in this news story are a
> breech of the School Board's Guidelines for their
> own behavior in boundary study exercises.
>
> Everyone, especially Stu, knew in January 2003
> that there would be a boundary change as soon as
> the SL renovations were complete. In fact, Bruce
> told me in 2005, he thought it would be done in
> 2007. I suggested that I couldn't imagine the SB
> doing it in the year before a School Board
> election. And guess what, they didn't.
>
> Why would his craveness so blatantly violate the
> School Board's own guidelines?
>
> Does anyone know if he disputed the story in a
> later letter to the editor or if there was a
> subsequent correction?
>
> If not, then this could be additional grounds for
> recall.

Question for all of the hypocrites out there...you know who you are. If the School Board had followed the steps that you have suggested, like including Westfield, Langley and Madison, and your neighborhood were still slated to move to South Lakes, would you be complaining? Did you support Michelle Brykner's position that as taxpayers, we should be using available space regardless of political ramifications? What difference does it make whether the people complaining are being pulled from Langley or Herndon or Westfield or Chantilly or Madison or Oakton? Aren't the political ramifications there for every group?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Question for all of the hypocrites out there...

Wahoo Mirror on the wall, who's the fairest cracker of them all . . . .

You won already.

Try a little magnanimity, just for the holiday season

SLVerity awakens from a coma and asks:

> What difference does it make whether the people complaining are being pulled from Langley or Herndon or Westfield or Chantilly or Madison or Oakton?

Well...let's see...the goal is to minimize student reassignments while addressing underenrollment, overenrollment, proximity and socioeconomics, right? Apologies if this summary misses some details, but that's the gist of the whole exercise.

South Lakes is underenrolled for various reasons, and the county says fix it. Whatever. Let's see how it would make sense to fix it, rather then just move unused recently created capacity from South Lakes to Westfield.

Madison and Langley are OVERENROLLED, have students that will improve South Lakes damographics, and ummm ADJOIN SOUTH LAKES. And yet you don't see why people from (say) Oakton, which is already on target enrollment, think it is stupid to be looking at moving hundreds of students into an out of Oakton just so we can leave Madison and Langley alone, and change Westfield and CHantilly by 8%? Sometimes you are such a N00b.

Capacity is being added to Langley needlessly, to support students who are bussed ten miles to Langley when they live one mile from Herndon. Where's the SLPTA's crack GIS team on that issue? Send 200 from Langley to Herndon. Send Aldrin to South Lakes. Take 200 from Madison. All the schools will be 1800-2000, with few students impacted, and shorter bus trips than the option on the table. BUt more annoyed Great Falls / Vienna families, who apparently are "more equal" than the annoyed Floris / Fox Mill families.

Now, can we end this?? Everyone just move on... Bless y'all.
Attachments:

FME Mom Wrote:
>
> I didn't say get rid of ALL of the low income
> housing, however, if Stonegate was demolished and
> MODEST single family homes were built (i.e.
> bringing back STARTER home), young couples would
> flock to Reston to be able to buy a house with a
> yard that doesn't cost 800K. There are not enough
> detached homes with yards that are affordable,
> forcing people into townhomes or condos. Nothing
> wrong with those if that's what you like, but it's
> nice to have options. This modest development
> would also encourage change to the overall
> demographics of Reston because people ARE afraid
> of the Section 8 housing. No one moves to the
> suburbs to live next to the projects.


Stonegate is not so bad, I know a lot of families who live there through my kids' school. It's not the projects by any means. I feel quite safe visiting there with my young kids.

BTW, there are streets just like you described just down Glade Drive including Cocquina, and there are smaller houses with treed lots all over Reston. Old Trail and Salt Kettle Way are two streets off the top of my head with housing just like you described.

Those redistrictors...real real funny.
Attachments:

Neen Wrote:
> Who the hell renovates their home 13 times?
> Couldn't get it right the first 10 or 12 times?
> And who lives in the same house for 31 years? And
> who in Reston is permitted to change the outside
> of their house, 13 times? And who would bother?
> If the house needs that much work, every 2+ years,
> normal people would have moved, decades ago.


Oh, we're terribly abnormal. Have any plans ever been initially rejected by RA? Yes, but with small changes they were approved. Why move if you've got a fantastic lot? Most work has been adding on to the original small split level, remodeling includes kitchen and bathroom updates.

Who lives in the same place over 30 years? Restonians do. Our contractor of the last eight years stays busy nearly year round right in Reston.

FME Mom Wrote:
> Well maybe your neighborhood is special. In my
> old neighborhood, which is a townhouse community,
> shutters and storm doors had to be RA approved
> shades of color, and no one could put additions or
> decks on second story doors. In the past five or
> so years, I have seen bay windows added, LOTS of
> second story decks, and colors that aren't from
> 1976.

We're in single family homes with 1/2 - 3/4 acre lots, and at least 1/2 of the houses on my street have different footprints now than when they were initially built.

>>>>All that's happening now is somebody told the bureaucrats to try to make all schools have 2000 student<<<

Not quite. The magic 2000 number is what they're using to justify this boundary change. It's a 'one time only' excuse for THIS boundary change.

>>>>Bruce asserts that 45 more kids placed into SL for academics than placed out for academics.<<<

Thomas, didn't we already go through this and find the evidence at FCPS.edu that proves Bruce was not stating the truth? Was it three times or five times the number of students transferring OUT of SL, over those transferring IN?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

really really really

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > South County School Contract Still Being
> > Negotiated
> > Difference of Opinion on Solving Overcrowding
> > Issues
> > By Jennifer Lesinski
> > January 22, 2003
>
> In what publication did this story appear?
>
> The comments reported in this news story are a
> breech of the School Board's Guidelines for their
> own behavior in boundary study exercises.
>
> Everyone, especially Stu, knew in January 2003
> that there would be a boundary change as soon as
> the SL renovations were complete. In fact, Bruce
> told me in 2005, he thought it would be done in
> 2007. I suggested that I couldn't imagine the SB
> doing it in the year before a School Board
> election. And guess what, they didn't.
>
> Why would his craveness so blatantly violate the
> School Board's own guidelines?
>
> Does anyone know if he disputed the story in a
> later letter to the editor or if there was a
> subsequent correction?
>
> If not, then this could be additional grounds for
> recall.

Wasn't 2003 also an election year? Politicians say lots of things they don't mean during an election year.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just received this article from a Floris area
> parent. It is nice to see that STU GIBSON was not
> in favor of any redistricting for the folks who
> reside in NORTH RESTON.
>
> South County School Contract Still Being
> Negotiated
> Difference of Opinion on Solving Overcrowding
> Issues
> By Jennifer Lesinski
> January 22, 2003
>
>
>
>
>
> No contracts have been signed as yet for the
> public-private partnership construction of the
> south county high school, said Thomas Brady,
> Fairfax County Public Schools chief operating
> officer, at a School Board work session Jan. 13.
> A deal between the county supervisors, School
> Board and private developer is still being worked
> on that could potentially have the school build on
> the former Lorton prison site by 2005 instead of
> 2008 if left to the schools alone.
> Brady did say that even though the
> school-construction contract has yet to be
> finalized, the school system will be taking
> advantage of in-kind proffers from another
> developer, Pulte, who has agreed to do grading and
> utility work leading up to the school site.
> "You might see work going on there, but it is not
> a groundbreaking or the beginning of the
> construction of the school," he said.
>
> IN OTHER CAPITAL improvement program (CIP) news,
> schools staff stressed that the proposed addition
> at Langley High School is a permanent addition and
> that there are no plans to change the school's
> boundaries.
> In addition, Brady said that staff will soon be
> recommending a firm to perform a real-estate
> assessment that includes a plan for the sale,
> trade or swap of school system property for
> existing space that can be leased or purchased to
> be used as classroom space or administrative
> centers. The consultant would also be asked to
> supply alternative funding methods, outside of
> bonding, for the renovation or construction of
> school property. One possibility is the purchase
> or lease of vacant commercial space for an adult
> education center.
> "The hope is by next year's CIP we have a CIP
> based on the facts as we know them and an
> alternative ," Brady said.
>
> SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS Rita Thompson and Mychele
> Brickner, both at-large members, without
> mentioning the words “boundary change,” suggested
> the School Board should be looking at
> reapportioning the attendance areas to address the
> overcrowding of some schools, while others are
> underenrolled. The pair did not find support among
> their fellow members.
> "We have overcapacity at Westfield and
> overcapacity at Langley, and we're under capacity
> at South Lakes. I understand the political
> ramifications, but we are responsible to all the
> taxpayers to show we are being responsible with
> their money, and we aren't trying to address
> this," Brickner said.
> "A lot of people choose where to live based on the
> high schools where they live. It has been
> suggested before that all of Reston should go to
> South Lakes. North Point Village doesn't want to
> go to South Lakes. I love South Lakes. I have a
> daughter who went there and another that is going
> to graduate from there, but North Point Village
> doesn't want to go there," said Stuart Gibson
> (Hunter Mill). "If someone wants to go out in the
> community and float the idea of a boundary change,
> go ahead, but I for one will not be supporting
> that measure."


Stu Gibson would disagree with MYchele Brickner if she said the sun was shining and it was.

But I'm not quite getting the point here since North Point area isn't being sent to South Lakes.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity awakens from a coma and asks:
>
> > What difference does it make whether the people
> complaining are being pulled from Langley or
> Herndon or Westfield or Chantilly or Madison or
> Oakton?
>
> Well...let's see...the goal is to minimize student
> reassignments while addressing underenrollment,
> overenrollment, proximity and socioeconomics,
> right? Apologies if this summary misses some
> details, but that's the gist of the whole
> exercise.
>
> South Lakes is underenrolled for various reasons,
> and the county says fix it. Whatever. Let's see
> how it would make sense to fix it, rather then
> just move unused recently created capacity from
> South Lakes to Westfield.
>
> Madison and Langley are OVERENROLLED, have
> students that will improve South Lakes
> damographics, and ummm ADJOIN SOUTH LAKES. And
> yet you don't see why people from (say) Oakton,
> which is already on target enrollment, think it is
> stupid to be looking at moving hundreds of
> students into an out of Oakton just so we can
> leave Madison and Langley alone, and change
> Westfield and CHantilly by 8%? Sometimes you are
> such a N00b.
>
> Capacity is being added to Langley needlessly, to
> support students who are bussed ten miles to
> Langley when they live one mile from Herndon.
> Where's the SLPTA's crack GIS team on that issue?
> Send 200 from Langley to Herndon. Send Aldrin to
> South Lakes. Take 200 from Madison. All the
> schools will be 1800-2000, with few students
> impacted, and shorter bus trips than the option on
> the table. BUt more annoyed Great Falls / Vienna
> families, who apparently are "more equal" than the
> annoyed Floris / Fox Mill families.

That's pretty much the case. Well said.

Thanks for your insights Verity,

The article I posted from the connection was really to show the 2 faced nature of Mr. Gibson. I just find it kind of ironic that he was so strong in his position of not wanting to support any boundary studies in 2003, at the time that the SB was spending $15,000,000 to expand capacity at Westfield and Langley.

Having already been forced to move from Oakton to Westfield, I am sure that you can understand why the folks living in the Floris area, embrace the idea of buying a home to be able to send our kids to a school of our choosing.

We just want to have Stu's Support in the same way that he respected the fine folks in North Reston.

And he stated:

"A lot of people choose where to live based on the high schools where they live. It has been suggested before that all of Reston should go to South Lakes. North Point Village doesn't want to go to South Lakes. I love South Lakes. I have a daughter who went there and another that is going to graduate from there, but North Point Village doesn't want to go there," said Stuart Gibson (Hunter Mill). "If someone wants to go out in the community and float the idea of a boundary change, go ahead, but I for one will not be supporting that measure."

stu_hypocrisy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unbelieveable - So Stu thinks that rich and
> influencial folks of North Point, should not
> attend South Lakes with so many poor students, but
> the middle class Fox Mill and Floris can!!!.
>
> His double speak is exposed - Balance
> Socioeconomic characteristics as long as rich
> people are not effected. Choose the un organized
> and middle class folks who cant fight back as they
> are busy working 2 jobs, and hit them hard.
>
> I think it is a shame that the voters elect such
> "for sale to highest bidder politicians" to
> office. Politicans such as Stu will support any
> position as long as they are given enough campiagn
> contributions. These campaign contributions are
> then used by these politicians to advertise
> falsehoods and they get elected again, to serve
> only the rich campaign contributors. The cycle
> repeats for ever.

That's exactly why Hayfield went from 2,200+ students to 1,200 the following year. Their school board member let the rich families out to go to South County. It has decimated Hayfield.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2007 04:39PM by Neen.

SLVerity and Restonian,
Ok, you have convinced me that renovations can be done, under some circumstances, in Reston, making it all the more puzzling why the population at South Lakes continues to decline. Perhaps you could explain it to everyone? If families aren't leaving for larger houses elsewhere, then where are their high school students? Where do they go between elementary schools and high schools. (Minus two points if you blame it on the GT centers. You will have to do better than that.)

Neen, you know better. We already had this conversation. I noted that Vienna Woods was built in the 1950's and just started turning to major renovations in the last 5 years, so there was a lag time of 50 years, even though the Vienna Metro has been in place for years. South Reston's oldest neighborhoods were developed in the late sixties and seventies, with most homes added in the '80's. Add 50 years and you find that we are due for major turnover and renovations in 2015. It's easy if you apply some analysis and don't resort to your usual mode of making this all about South Lakes.

You might consider that an area full of starter homes and townhouses is going to attract singles, young marrieds, young families, and empty nesters. Growing families look for single family homes with garages - ask any realtor. There are just not enough on the market in South Reston to fill South Lakes, no matter how much you want that to be the case. There were more families in Reston in the past, when we were the only suburb here surrounded by farmland, when energy was through the roof, the area was new and housing standards were smaller. Families now want large houses.

Didn't I just read that you accused Bruce Butler of lying because his numbers don't agree with yours? Do you ever sit back and take a breather before using your Stalinist tactic of attacking the messenger?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2007 05:45PM by SLVerity.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity and Restonian,
> Ok, you have convinced me that renovations can be
> done, under some circumstances, in Reston, making
> it all the more puzzling why the population at
> South Lakes continues to decline. Perhaps you
> could explain it to everyone? If families aren't
> leaving for larger houses elsewhere, then where
> are their high school students? Where do they go
> between elementary schools and high schools.
> (Minus two points if you blame it on the GT
> centers. You will have to do better than that.)


Statistics about the entire population of Reston don't tell the whole story. There is a lot of aging in place in older Reston neighborhoods. Families are growing older here, so there are very few children in many neighborhoods.

The elementary schools populations are either very low, or propped up by magnets and GT centers. Not going for points -- the elementary schools with high populations feed middle and high schools outside of our pyramid.

Dear Restonian, it doesn't matter how many times your point is made, Neen and others will ignore the facts on the ground because they don't fit with their agenda, which is that South Lakes High School(IB-reputation-gangs, take your pick) is entirely responsible for it's declining enrollment.

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The elementary schools populations are either very
> low, or propped up by magnets and GT centers. Not
> going for points -- the elementary schools with
> high populations feed middle and high schools
> outside of our pyramid.

Do have you any numbers to bear this out. It's hard to believe there are 50-70 kids in every grade who have placed into a SL pyramid elementary school magnet or GT center.

There is some number of families moving out during middle school and some number going to private/parochial school.

Actual numbers would help to understand what's happening.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2007 07:50PM by Thomas More.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>Bruce asserts that 45 more kids placed into SL
> for academics than placed out for academics.<<<
>
> Thomas, didn't we already go through this and find
> the evidence at FCPS.edu that proves Bruce was not
> stating the truth? Was it three times or five
> times the number of students transferring OUT of
> SL, over those transferring IN?

Yup

Thomas More Wrote:
> Actual numbers would help to understand what's
> happening.

From the data on the FCPS website there are an average of 200 GT Center kids per grade between Hunters Woods, Forest Edge and Sunrise Valley. I don't have numbers for magnet students at HW or Immersion students from Lake Anne who have base schools outside the SL pyramid.

Forest Edge and Hunters Woods each have students from 3 feeder schools that go out of the SL pyramid. Sunrise Valley has 4 feeder schools outside of the SL pyramid.

Even an overly conservative guess that half the kids in the GT Centers came from SL pyramid schools, they could account for 100 students per grade leaving the pyramid. There are also magnet and Spanish Immersion students who place into HW and LA, and head to their own middle and high schools.

>>>Didn't I just read that you accused Bruce Butler of lying because his numbers don't agree with yours?<<<

No dear. Those were not MY numbers but FCPS numbers as reported by Alice Farling to the school board. Check the board docs. It was posted on right here. Surely you saw it. Bruce was wrong. YOU might call that lying, if you choose.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Restonian, it doesn't matter how many times
> your point is made, Neen and others will ignore
> the facts on the ground because they don't fit
> with their agenda, which is that South Lakes High
> School(IB-reputation-gangs, take your pick) is
> entirely responsible for it's declining
> enrollment.

You are right, to a certain extent. For whatever the reasons, parents will not send their children to South Lakes. Period.

>>>Statistics about the entire population of Reston don't tell the whole story. There is a lot of aging in place in older Reston neighborhoods. Families are growing older here, so there are very few children in many neighborhoods.<<<

And that's not happening in Vienna and McLean and many other parts of the county?

Reston is 40 years old, the vast majority of houses have turned over, at least once.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2007 09:12PM by Neen.

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> > Actual numbers would help to understand what's
> > happening.
>
> From the data on the FCPS website there are an
> average of 200 GT Center kids per grade between
> Hunters Woods, Forest Edge and Sunrise Valley. I
> don't have numbers for magnet students at HW or
> Immersion students from Lake Anne who have base
> schools outside the SL pyramid.
>
> Forest Edge and Hunters Woods each have students
> from 3 feeder schools that go out of the SL
> pyramid. Sunrise Valley has 4 feeder schools
> outside of the SL pyramid.
>
> Even an overly conservative guess that half the
> kids in the GT Centers came from SL pyramid
> schools, they could account for 100 students per
> grade leaving the pyramid. There are also magnet
> and Spanish Immersion students who place into HW
> and LA, and head to their own middle and high
> schools.

I appreciate the effort.

The first question is did the yield number projected by the FCPS staff incorporate these kids in the projection or not?

It would seem that since their return to their base pyramid high school was predictable, the projections would have already accounted for this return to base pyramids. Again we don't know.

Since the shortfall in yield is 50-70 per year and we know some number of SL pyramid kids are moving or going to private/parochial school, if the return to base pyramid kids number around 100, the shortfall in yield would be more than 100 per grade.

It's just not clear.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>All that's happening now is somebody told the
> bureaucrats to try to make all schools have 2000
> student<<<
>
> Not quite. The magic 2000 number is what they're
> using to justify this boundary change. It's a
> 'one time only' excuse for THIS boundary change.

The magic 2000 number is from a policy that's about 30 years old. They seem to have forgotten it when they built Westfield at 2500 then expanded it to 3100. Somehow they just happened to rediscover and reaffirm it just in time for this study.

How did Westfield end up the size it is? From what I understand, Staff messed up the original Westfield projections. The building was over enrolled when it opened. Staff simply missed the rate of expansion in the entire west county area.

Before adding on to Westfield, I remember rumors about building the planned Oak Hill High School (still on the CIP for the out years) with some discussions revolving around expanding Carson to make it a high school or adding to the land there to allow for a single campus like Hughes/South Lakes. Instead, they chose to expand Westfield since it was much less expensive.

(An aside - Perhaps the Westfield addition should be dedicated to the real estate bubble. Assuming they move us out, put an Economics Academy in it. Name it after Alan Greenspan, without whom, the addition wouldn't have been necessary.)

You're blaming the size of Westfield on Alan Greenspan? Thats a bit of a stretch, but funny nonetheless.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're blaming the size of Westfield on Alan
> Greenspan? Thats a bit of a stretch.

Obviously, but, who knows how many houses were built out here that wouldn't have been without the low interest rates.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Statistics about the entire population of
> Reston don't tell the whole story. There is a lot
> of aging in place in older Reston neighborhoods.
> Families are growing older here, so there are very
> few children in many neighborhoods.<<<
>
> And that's not happening in Vienna and McLean and
> many other parts of the county?
>
> Reston is 40 years old, the vast majority of
> houses have turned over, at least once.
-----------
Permit me to return to Woodson again, which received startup funding for IB at the very same time as South Lakes, and which started renovation a year later, but which ejected IB soon after it was implemented. Like Hughes, Woodson's feeder middle school also has a GT Center. Woodson is also in a built-out area with few new houses. [The average age of Woodson-pyramid housing is debatable. Maybe a decade older than Reston?]

Compare the student populations at these two high schools since May 2002 when the first IB classes graduated from South Lakes and from Woodson (Woodson had only two years of IB grads).
Year......SLHS...Woodson
Sep 02..1621...1726
Sep 03..1596...1875
Sep 04..1551...1914
Sep 05..1487...1992
Sep 06..1430...2172
Sep 07..1443...2115

So since the first IB grads, South Lakes decreased in student population by a couple hundred. During the same period Woodson grew by about 450, then dropped this year. [It should be noted that Woodson is in the middle of an extensive and very messy renovation, costing $79 million, almost a third more than the $60 million renovation at South Lakes.]

Tell me, Forum Reader, just what are the FRL numbers at Woodson? Well, I'll tell you. For 2006/07 Woodson had 5.67% kids on FRL and 7.99 Limited English Proficient kids. At the same time, SL had at least 33.12% FRL and 16.42% Limited English Proficient. Is it possible that demographics, not curriculum, play the larger part in explaining the disparity in enrollment? Could that not explain the disparity at other IB schools? It has been discussed here many times by Reston parents and others that as long as the FRM numbers for SL are so out of whack with surrounding schools, families will not choose to send their kids to SL, with or without AP or IB. It's not all about the curriculum, stupid (apologies to the Clintons). There are some people who don't want to send their kids to SL because they don't like the demographics, period. We've heard from a lot of them here, btw.

Why has the City of Falls Church maintained their IB program for 18 years if, as Neen says, affluent parents don't want it? Falls Church is a very affluent community. They could chuck the program any time they wanted, yet they don't. They continue to rival the best schools in Fairfax County on any rankings spoken of here. A vast majority of students participate. What is the difference between George Mason and South Lakes? DEMOGRAPHICS!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2007 12:02AM by SLVerity.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You're blaming the size of Westfield on Alan
> > Greenspan? Thats a bit of a stretch.
>
> Obviously, but, who knows how many houses were
> built out here that wouldn't have been without the
> low interest rates.

What's wrong with housing or low interest rates? Most people want both.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It has been discussed here many times by Reston parents and others that as
> long as the FRM numbers for SL are so out of whack
> with surrounding schools, families will not choose
> to send their kids to SL, with or without AP or
> IB. It's not all about the curriculum, stupid
> (apologies to the Clintons). There are some
> people who don't want to send their kids to SL
> because they don't like the demographics, period.
> We've heard from a lot of them here, btw.
>
> What is the difference between George Mason and South Lakes?
> DEMOGRAPHICS!!!!

So there are 700 families who used to live in Reston who are such snobs that they would move rather than have their children go to high school with the "riff raff" that their kids went to elementary school with and it took these families 8 years to figure out that there would be such "riff raff" at South Lakes.

Thankfully few Restonians actually think like that. Its antithetical to the idea of Reston.

Most of the families I've known who moved away from South Lakes over the last 2 decades felt the administrative and instructional staff were inadequate or objectionable.

Several moved because they could get more house for a lower price in Winchester, Martinsburg or Harrisburg.

Some did move to get away from IB.

Not once did any parent mention anything about the demographics of SL.

I know that snobbery is part of the core curriculum at Charlottesville Country Day and as a 4th generation yahoo, sorry Wahoo, it's deeply inculcated but really,

Projection is a dangerous thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2007 12:13AM by Thomas More.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tell me, Forum Reader, just what are the FRL
> numbers at Woodson? Well, I'll tell you. For
> 2006/07 Woodson had 5.67% kids on FRL and 4.21
> ESOL (majority Asian) kids. At the same time, SL
> had at least 33.12% FRL and 8.85% ESOL. Is it
> possible that demographics, not curriculum, play
> the larger part in explaining the disparity in
> enrollment? Could that not explain the disparity
> at other IB schools? It has been discussed here
> many times by Reston parents and others that as
> long as the FRM numbers for SL are so out of whack
> with surrounding schools, families will not choose
> to send their kids to SL, with or without AP or
> IB. It's not all about the curriculum, stupid
> (apologies to the Clintons). There are some
> people who don't want to send their kids to SL
> because they don't like the demographics, period.
> We've heard from a lot of them here, btw.
>
> Why has the City of Falls Church maintained their
> IB program for 18 years if, as Neen says, affluent
> parents don't want it? Falls Church is a very
> affluent community. They could chuck the program
> any time they wanted, yet they don't. They
> continue to rival the best schools in Fairfax
> County on any rankings spoken of here. A vast
> majority of students participate. What is the
> difference between George Mason and South Lakes?
> DEMOGRAPHICS!!!!

I'll let the forum reader answer that, but the basic answer is that George Mason high school spends over $17,000 per pupil so that they can have an healthy AP program in addition to IB, lots of class options, with very small class sizes. There is no reason why South Lakes can't have the same, without moving a single student.

Does it really matter WHY parents don't want to send their kids to South Lakes? If the real problem is demographics, then South Lakes is screwed, regardless.
But if an AP program would change some minds, then why not have it? Why dig in your heals against what most parents want?

I was speaking of families not wanting to move in, not families who are here. If families who age out or move are not replaced by like families, then enrollment declines, get it!

>>>>So there are 700 families who used to live in Reston who are such snobs that they would move rather than have their children go to high school with the "riff raff" that their kids went to elementary school with and it took these families 8 years to figure out that there would be such "riff raff" at South Lakes.

Thankfully few Restonians actually think like that. Its antithetical to the idea of Reston.

Most of the families I've known who moved away from South Lakes over the last 2 decades felt the administrative and instructional staff were inadequate or objectionable.

Several moved because they could get more house for a lower price in Winchester, Martinsburg or Harrisburg.

Some did move to get away from IB.<<<

Since SL parents have assured parents that their children will not be in classes with the 'riff raff', I suspect that you are correct. It's IB, it's the staff, and let's not forgot the snobby parents at South Lakes who have been so unwelcoming and unyielding to parents who disagree with their educational views in any way. No one wants to send their child to a school populated by parents like them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2007 12:11AM by Neen.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was speaking of families not wanting to move in,
> not families who are here. If families who age
> out or move are not replaced by like families,
> then enrollment declines, get it!

Why would that happen? Why would people who buy in Reston have fewer kids than replacement families in other areas? Why don't families with kids want to move into Reston? Because the schools stink? Just a guess.

Neen, GM is very small, so class size is bound to be small in a system that wants to offer the best to its students. I have looked at the GM course offerings and the only AP course offered appears to be AP Government. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it. I and other SL parents have expressed many times here a desire to round out IB with AP at SL.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2007 12:25AM by SLVerity.

Neen, why do you always find it necessary denigrate the parents of SL students? Is this really all your life has to offer? Are you not better than that?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was speaking of families not wanting to move in,
> not families who are here. If families who age
> out or move are not replaced by like families,
> then enrollment declines, get it!

So the snobs aren't the folks who moved out but the folks who refuse to move in.

And the empirical evidence for this hypothesis is . . .

what exactly?

You are the only person here referring to others as snobs. Projection that.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen, GM is very small, so class size is bound to
> be small in a system that wants to offer the best
> to its students. I have looked at the GM course
> offerings and the only AP course offered appears
> to be AP Government. If you have evidence to the
> contrary, please present it. I and other SL
> parents have expressed many times here a desire to
> round out IB with AP at SL.

Here you go:
http://www.fccps.k12.va.us/gm/counseling/info-files/course%20description%20book%202007-2008.pdf
A quick look and I found that George Mason offers AP Government, AP calculus AB, Ap calculus BC, and numerous honors classes.

John, have you been getting into the sauce tonight?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are the only person here referring to others
> as snobs. Projection that.

If the shoe fits dear, sorry to hear that it's pinching.

It is certainly not my fault that the South Lakes Stu groupies have come across so poorly on this forum.

And now you are accusing those who disagree with you as being 'on the sauce'?

Thanks for making my point about the SL groupie gals. I wouldn't want my children in a school with narrow minded, mean, and snobby, women like you all. You can keep South Lakes, its IB program, and all its current glory.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen, GM is very small, so class size is bound
> to
> > be small in a system that wants to offer the
> best
> > to its students. I have looked at the GM
> course
> > offerings and the only AP course offered
> appears
> > to be AP Government. If you have evidence to
> the
> > contrary, please present it. I and other SL
> > parents have expressed many times here a desire
> to
> > round out IB with AP at SL.
>
> Here you go:
> http://www.fccps.k12.va.us/gm/counseling/info-file
> s/course%20description%20book%202007-2008.pdf
> A quick look and I found that George Mason offers
> AP Government, AP calculus AB, Ap calculus BC, and
> numerous honors classes.

Neen, thanks for the link. That was not on the GMHS website so I'm not sure which is the most accurate, but it exactly clarifies the types of courses that I have been advocating for at SL, though there is no way to have that many offered.

SLVerity Wrote:
> ... What is the
> difference between George Mason and South Lakes?
> DEMOGRAPHICS!!!!

--------
There are two differences. First, George Mason is much SMALLER, proving IB can work just fine at a small school. Second, as has been pointed out, George Mason receives far more dollars per pupil.

The most fair comparison is South Lakes and Stuart because both are in the same school system with about the same cost per pupil. On paper Stuart and South lakes are nearly identical: Both are IB schools with about the same number of students. The list of IB courses offered is pretty comparable and last year Stuart offered only one single AP course, in government. Stuart just finished its major renovation.

Since you are unable to participate in a calm discussion without implying everyone who disagrees with you is a racist (or at least is opposed to poor people) I will repeat the stats: Stuart is far more "diverse" than South Lakes. It has far higher percentages of students in the categories of FRM, Black and Hispanic, Limited English Proficiency, and mobility.


Demographics:
- FRM: South Lakes 33%; Stuart 51%.
- Black and Hispanic students: South Lakes 36.7%; Stuart 51.2%.
- Limited English students: South Lakes 16.4%; Stuart 36.4%.
- Mobility: South Lakes 17.2%; Stuart had 24.3%
If you attribute a school's poor academic record to the racial, ethnic, and socio-economic composition of its students, you would expect Stuart to have about 50% more SOL failures and more violence.

However, the post recent data posted indicate:
- South Lakes had fifteen "serious incidents" and seven weapons cases, Stuart had only four "serious incidents" and two weapons cases.
- South Lakes has from "about the same" to "much higher" failure rates on the SOL exams when compared to Stuart. Examples:
--- On the geometry SOL South Lakes had a 20.4% failure rate ; Stuart had only an 11% failure rate.
--- On the Chemistry SOL South Lakes had a 32.5% failure rate ; Stuart had only a 14.2% failure rate.
- With 232 Limited English students, 7.1% of South Lakes students failed the English writing test. With 535 Limited English students, more than TWICE AS MANY, only 6.3% of Stuart students failed this same test.

As for "high end" students with diverse backgrounds:
- Even with a significantly higher percentage of FRM students, Stuart still has slightly higher IB participation rates for Blacks, for Hispanics, and overall.
- The two schools had identical average SAT scores, 941, for FRM students.
- For Limited English students, the South Lakes SAT average was 811; the Stuart average was 827.
- For students with disabilities, the SAT South Lakes average was 878; the Stuart average was 916.

If you love IB, then look at Stuart and emulate what it is doing right. Small schools like George Mason and diverse schools like Stuart prove you can make IB work for you without dragging in additional students who don't want to come.

If they DO want to come, fine. They can pupil-place, like they do to George Marshall and to Marshall, yet another small IB school.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen, why do you always find it necessary
> denigrate the parents of SL students? Is this
> really all your life has to offer? Are you not
> better than that?

Better than what? Better than telling the truth about your little cabal?

I am sure that there are some very nice parents at South Lakes, but they aren't the ones who post here nor are they ones who run the PTSA. I am sure there are many who are open to free speech, and even constructive criticism of their school. I have even met some of those nice parents. But those parents are not here, and they aren't the intolerant groupies who run the PTSA.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2007 12:41AM by Neen.

>>>First, George Mason is much SMALLER, proving IB can work just fine at a small school.<<<

Then South Lakes should be all set to have a great school, without forcing anyone to go there.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You are the only person here referring to
> others
> > as snobs. Projection that.
>
> If the shoe fits dear, sorry to hear that it's
> pinching.
>
> It is certainly not my fault that the South Lakes
> Stu groupies have come across so poorly on this
> forum.
>
> And now you are accusing those who disagree with
> you as being 'on the sauce'?
>
> Thanks for making my point about the SL groupie
> gals. I wouldn't want my children in a school
> with narrow minded, mean, and snobby, women like
> you all. You can keep South Lakes, its IB program,
> and all its current glory.

Neen, I was speaking of Thomas More, not you. I have never called anyone a snob. Thank you for making my point though, which is that you cannot help but denigrate the parents of SL, except for those in lockstep with your views. And why would you think I am a woman but for your behind the scenes gossiping with your online pal.

Keep up that Christmas spirit, though.

>>>and why would you think I am a woman but for your behind the scenes gossiping with your online pal.<<<

Huh? I have NO clue what you are talking about. Everyone knows you are a woman, don't they? Why would it matter?

BTW, no one had to tell me who you are. In FACT, I figured it out long before anyone else did. You left quite a trail of bread crumbs.

Oh, you might want to ask your friend Clarifer why she's claiming that her son is an engineering student in math classes with other engineering students, making her an expert on AP BC calculus when her son is NOT enrolled in the engineer school and never took BC calculus. He took the easier calculus, the one non math and non engineering students take at TJ, only because they have to take calculus to graduate with a TJ diploma. Clarifer should not use her son as an example of math kid, or an engineering student, as he is neither. She shouldn't claim to know what happens in math classes in the engineering school since her son is not in the engineering school. (I am sure you know how to verify that for yourself.) She is yet another example of the fine example set by South Lakes parents, claiming to be what she is not, and lying about her knowledge of math courses for engineers in an attempt to 'prove' that IB is better than AP. Sheeze.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2007 12:57AM by Neen.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restonian Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thomas More Wrote:
> > > Actual numbers would help to understand
> what's
> > > happening.
> >
> > From the data on the FCPS website there are an
> > average of 200 GT Center kids per grade between
> > Hunters Woods, Forest Edge and Sunrise Valley.
> I
> > don't have numbers for magnet students at HW or
> > Immersion students from Lake Anne who have base
> > schools outside the SL pyramid.
> >
> > Forest Edge and Hunters Woods each have
> students
> > from 3 feeder schools that go out of the SL
> > pyramid. Sunrise Valley has 4 feeder schools
> > outside of the SL pyramid.
> >
> > Even an overly conservative guess that half the
> > kids in the GT Centers came from SL pyramid
> > schools, they could account for 100 students
> per
> > grade leaving the pyramid. There are also
> magnet
> > and Spanish Immersion students who place into
> HW
> > and LA, and head to their own middle and high
> > schools.
>
> I appreciate the effort.
>
> The first question is did the yield number
> projected by the FCPS staff incorporate these kids
> in the projection or not?
>
> It would seem that since their return to their
> base pyramid high school was predictable, the
> projections would have already accounted for this
> return to base pyramids. Again we don't know.
>
> Since the shortfall in yield is 50-70 per year and
> we know some number of SL pyramid kids are moving
> or going to private/parochial school, if the
> return to base pyramid kids number around 100, the
> shortfall in yield would be more than 100 per
> grade.
>
> It's just not clear.


It's clear why there are enough children in Reston elementary schools, but not for South Lakes.

Changing the question when you don't like the answer, huh?

You stated that, " It's hard to believe there are 50-70 kids in every grade who have placed into a SL pyramid elementary school magnet or GT center. "

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John, have you been getting into the sauce tonight?

Cranberry sauce is part of the seasonal festivities in the rest of America. Has it not found its way to Charlottesville yet?

Forum Reader:

Talk to any parent at Stuart and you will find that they would love to have more students. Stuart has had the benefit of some great administrators. SL is just now getting there. Perhaps if you had stayed you could have helped those of us who wanted to get rid of the prior admin, but you didn't so that's that. Perhaps instead of trying to undermine your community school at every step, including advocating against it at the recent boundary meetings, you might just look and see that SL has made significant strides in the two years that Bruce Butler has been there.

As to statistics, they are entirely dependent on the thoroughness and honesty of the person doing the reporting. Bruce Butler has stated many times that he reports every little incident. We don't know how they do it at Stuart, do we. I have spoken to you many times about some of the things that Butler is emulating from Stuart. He has had many conversations with the school. But again, you would not know that because you have not been at SL.

As to charges of racism, you are totally taking what I said out of context. I did not call anyone a racist. I do think that families are not inclined to move into a district with the demographics that SL has when it is surrounded by schools so different. The same is true for Stuart. That's why it's poplulation is so small.

What still befuddles me is why you so strongly advocate against helping your own community school. It's a mystery. What's not a mystery is your knee-jerk desire to twist my words in a way that implies that I think anyone who moved out is a racist - I think it says a lot about you, in fact.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > John, have you been getting into the sauce
> tonight?
>
> Cranberry sauce is part of the seasonal
> festivities in the rest of America. Has it not
> found its way to Charlottesville yet?

I make Cranberry chutney and your sauce must have fermented:).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2007 01:08AM by SLVerity.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh, you might want to ask your friend Clarifer why
> she's claiming that her son is an engineering
> student in math classes with other engineering
> students, making her an expert on AP BC calculus
> when her son is NOT enrolled in the engineer
> school and never took BC calculus. He took the
> easier calculus, the one non math and non
> engineering students take at TJ, only because they
> have to take calculus to graduate with a TJ
> diploma. Clarifer should not use her son as an
> example of math kid, or an engineering student, as
> he is neither. She shouldn't claim to know what
> happens in math classes in the engineering school
> since her son is not in the engineering school. (I
> am sure you know how to verify that for yourself.)
> She is yet another example of the fine example
> set by South Lakes parents, claiming to be what
> she is not, and lying about her knowledge of math
> courses for engineers in an attempt to 'prove'
> that IB is better than AP. Sheeze.

So who's the snob now? Egads, he took the 'lesser' calculus course offered at TJ. Get me the smelling salts. I don't really understand what you are trying to say, but you do get unhinged when challenged. I can tell you that several SL kids are enrolled in Engineering and without the benefit of BC calculus.

Why are you so interested in Clarifier's son? Is it your personal business? I think it's creepy the way you seem to be obsessed with the children of others.

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's clear why there are enough children in Reston
> elementary schools, but not for South Lakes.
>
> Changing the question when you don't like the
> answer, huh?
>
> You stated that, " It's hard to believe there are
> 50-70 kids in every grade who have placed into a
> SL pyramid elementary school magnet or GT center. "

It's the same question and I'm just trying to find a credible explanation.

I assume you're exploring this mystery in good faith and so am I.

If the return to base pyramid high school of the GT and magnet school totaled 100 kids, as I understood you to suggest, then I would expect the shortfall to be greater than 100 kids because not only would the GT and magnet kids be returning to their base school but that number should be higher to account for the kids who move out of SL after 6th grade or who go to private or parochial school. Thus, if there are 100 returnees, we should expect the shortfall to be more than 100 if those GT magnet kids were part of the orginal projections.

I don't pretend to know the answer here.

We need more information from the FCPS to know the reason for the 50-70 shortfall each year.

I hope you and I can continue to explore the answer together. Maybe we can frame a question to the FCPS staff to try to understand this phenomenon.

Thomas More Wrote:
> I hope you and I can continue to explore the
> answer together. Maybe we can frame a question to
> the FCPS staff to try to understand this
> phenomenon.


No, I've seen how you operate at meetings and this forum, and have no desire to work with you.

Thomas, don't forget that 50% or more of the Hughes GT center is either returning to Herndon or going to TJ after 8th grade. So we lose out at the next tier as well. Whether the school system counts the numbers or not is something that should be discovered. Their projections have been known to be wrong, as we have learned here many times.

My point with regards to all the GT Centers and magnets in our pyramid is that they were added as band-aids any time that the idea of addressing declining enrollments via redistricting was brought up. So our base was weakened as other surrounding schools were adding new developments and families.

Restonian Wrote:
>
> A magnet program wouldn't do anything to expand
> the general ed population. A gen ed poplation of
> 1,150 is too small for SLHS to function in an
> equitable manner compared to its neighboring
> schools.

-----------
South Lakes could be an IB magnet for those students who are serious about getting an IB Diploma (high end students), but South Lakes could also, or instead, build on its focus on the global village and become a foreign language magnet for general ed students growing up in foreign language immersion programs.

As for size, can you clarify what you mean by "function in an equitable manner"? If you mean curriculum, as has been repeatedly stated, if you want AP and honors courses you have to get rid of IB and pre-IB. If you mean sports, band, etc, IB Diploma Candidates are known to be involved in their schools - it is part of their requirement for the IB Diploma..

If you just "feel too small," here are the 30 Sep 07 student numbers for the three smallest FCPS high schools. If it is really viewed as important to get high schools up to about 2,000 students (realistically, maybe 1,700 to 2,300) then it would appear Madison students should shift eastward to Marshall and Falls Church.
Falls Church - 1318
Marshall - 1325
South Lakes - 1443

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> > I hope you and I can continue to explore the
> > answer together. Maybe we can frame a question
> to
> > the FCPS staff to try to understand this
> > phenomenon.
>
> No, I've seen how you operate at meetings and this
> forum, and have no desire to work with you.

Pity. Seems there wasn't a real desire to understand what's going on at SL and only a desire by you to score some kind of silly debating points. Better luck next time.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas, don't forget that 50% or more of the
> Hughes GT center is either returning to Herndon or
> going to TJ after 8th grade. So we lose out at
> the next tier as well. Whether the school system
> counts the numbers or not is something that should
> be discovered. Their projections have been known
> to be wrong, as we have learned here many times.
>
> My point with regards to all the GT Centers and
> magnets in our pyramid is that they were added as
> band-aids any time that the idea of addressing
> declining enrollments via redistricting was
> brought up. So our base was weakened as other
> surrounding schools were adding new developments
> and families.

Right.

Answering the question "Why is SL losing yield" is an important diagnostic toward improving SL.

SLVerity Wrote:

>
> Why are you so interested in Clarifier's son? Is
> it your personal business? I think it's creepy
> the way you seem to be obsessed with the children
> of others.

I think it's rather creepy to lie about one's children to prove a non existent point. That's what she did. She wanted to say that IB math is better than AP math and she lied about her son to do it. If that isn't creepy, I don't know what is creepy.

People who will lie about their own child, just to 'prove' their point, are not to be trusted. They have no boundaries and no scruples. If they will use their own child in their lies, they'll do anything. And for what? To prove that pupil placing her child in an inferior school was really a good idea? And the only way to prove that is to lie about her other child?

Converts are always the worst. They REALLY hate to be wrong. I suppose that justifies the lie, in her mind.

Whatever. You asked why I put down the PTSA groupies? Now you know. Just one example, among many.

If you all really want parents to send their kids to South Lakes, as you claim, you (the collective you) might want to review your tactics. Although you personally are far from the worst of them.

Forum Reader,
Why not close Marshall and send the majority of those students to Falls Church? Send those close to Vienna to Madison and shift the Madison kids who are west of Hunter Mill to South Lakes. McLean could also take some of the Marshall students.

Marshall is sitting on such a valuable piece of property, it really should be sold. But I don't suppose our school board cares about the money.

>>>Answering the question "Why is SL losing yield" is an important diagnostic toward improving SL.<<<

Oh, heavens, why bother when Stu can simply force more high performing students to go there? That way, no improvements are necessary. The problems will be masked by the new students.

Has everyone seen this?

http://www.mcleantimes.com/letter/964/

Pretty powerful.

SLVerity,
You tend to use emotionally-laden words, which might be acceptable if you used them correctly. Here are a few excerpts from your last couple dozen posts. Read carefully and you might perceive the emotionalism to which I refer.
- “I think it's creepy the way you seem to be obsessed with the children of others.”
- “You are the only person here referring to others as snobs. Projection that.”
- “using your Stalinist tactic of attacking the messenger”
- “Question for all of the hypocrites out there...you know who you are. If the School Board had followed the steps that you have suggested” [which implies everyone who recommends a different solution is hypocritical.]

You wrote, “There are some people who don't want to send their kids to SL because they don't like the demographics, period. … What is the difference between George Mason and South Lakes? DEMOGRAPHICS!!!!” Because YOU twice used the word “demographics” I responded, “Since you are unable to participate in a calm discussion without implying everyone who disagrees with you is a racist (or at least is opposed to poor people) I will repeat the stats.” Note I responded to your comments with facts - YOU were the one who emphasized "DEMOGRAPHICS!!!!" so you can't very well complain when demographic data are presented.

About me you have written, “it is very obvious that you don't give a damn about your own community school” and “What still befuddles me is why you so strongly advocate against helping your own community school.” Can you not see I AM trying to help? Why would I even be posting if I did not care?

Not that I expect an apology. I may have missed it, but I have not yet seen that you are ever able to admit when you are wrong, as, for example, when you wrote, “Woodson actually got IB at least a year before SL.”

>>>>“Woodson actually got IB at least a year before SL.”<<<

Yet we are not to say that they lie. They get offended if we call them liars. Poor babies.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader,
> Why not close Marshall and send the majority of
> those students to Falls Church? Send those close
> to Vienna to Madison and shift the Madison kids
> who are west of Hunter Mill to South Lakes.
> McLean could also take some of the Marshall
> students.
>
> Marshall is sitting on such a valuable piece of
> property, it really should be sold. But I don't
> suppose our school board cares about the money.

----------------
Oh, good. Back to data and policy discussions.

The latest projections state, "Middle school capacity will exceed enrollment by 2,014 student spaces in the 2008-2009 school year. This capacity surplus will increase to approximately 2,146 middle school student spaces in the 2012-13 school year. High school capacity will exceed enrollment by approximately 3,107 student spaces in the 2008-09 school year. Projections indicate high school capacity will exceed membership by 4,058 student spaces in the 2012-13 school year."

Does most of the County population agree that 2,000 is the ideal population for a high school? That is far larger than what is generally recommended, but if so, and as I wrote earlier this month, shouldn't we make this a COUNTY-WIDE effort?

If it is decided that some of our current high school enrollments are in fact "too small" or "too big" this is logically where we are headed:
1. High schools (with 1700-2300 students) and middle schools (with 850-1150 students) should have matching boundaries. Those middle school buildings with capacity over 1150 would host GT and Special Ed Centers.
2. All school buildings with capacities of 2550 and over should remain or be converted to secondary schools (Mt Vernon, Hayfield, South County, Lake Braddock, Robinson, Chantilly, and Westfield).
3. Even with 2300 high school students and 1150 middle schoolers, Lake Braddock and Robinson would still have excess capacity and could host Academies.
4. After Mt Vernon, Chantilly, and Westfield are converted to secondary schools, and the existing secondary schools are reduced to a maximum of 2300 in the high school, most of the excess high school capacity is gone.

Finally we get to Neen's question: As discussed above, if high school populations are adjusted to 1700-2300, then most of the excess high school capacity will be gone. Stuart would need to be enlarged by 50 and Marshall would need to be enlarged by 200 student capacity to make the "minimum" cut-off.

I am not a Marshall expert, but I don't think there is sufficient land there for such an addition. Since South Lakes parents do not seem to want South Lakes to be an IB magnet, perhaps Marshall could be an "all-IB Diploma Candidate" school instead. It already has a lot of pupils placing into it.

-----------
On the other hand, the School Board could simply abandon its new-found conviction that high schools should host about 2,000 pupils. If so, then, yes, Marshall could close. The smallest middle school, Thoreau, could close or become an elementary school. Kilmer could become the middle school for the Madison pyramid.

what a great discussion! if we all met in a conference room my guess is a non-political scenario would emerge alligning programs, facilities, transportation, etc. Just noticed in new CIP that Gibson's base school LAKE ANNE got a 6 ROOM ADDITION. Justification???

I think Forest Edge is full and Lake Anne's neighbor ALDRIN goes to Herndon. Moving any of Lake Anne to ALDRIN seems to be a big no-no.

George Mason retains it's students - no out placements for AP and perhaps a far lower sending rate to TJ [technically a governor's school but really FCPS or it would get a lot more students from Arlington, Falls Church, and Alexandria]. Managerial control is much closer to the citizens since it is a smaller school division. Arlington is also smaller and might have lower outflow [to privates ] than FCPS.

Things that I find profoundly irritating:
1. Westfield addition- why was that built IF key school board members were NOT going to continue using it for the current boundaries?
2. Original intention of Westfield - secondary school

Quote
by Rumberger
3. What were original intent/discussions about Stone if Westfield a secondary school? Could be THE Academy and Adult ED Center at night
4. Chantilly core capacity is about 2300 -- it got a modular to get over 2500. boundaries between Chantilly and Westfield not examined and not in the Oak Hill direction?
5. How much space does the Chantilly Academy use? Public unaware of future of Chnatilly academy after Westfield becomes consortium academy???
6. Chatter from board and FCPS about Dulles/west county high school considering #1?
7. Above items 1-6 indicate poor or NO planning when millions have been spent
8. Is the school size target a function of justification on the Langley addition which might not have been intended to occur simultaneously with this process but was delayed due to the illegal dumping/run-off [behind the school not anywhere near the addition]? Is it a result of managerial deficiencies and lack of proper attention to all students resulting in recent tragedies? That's FCPS beaurocracy, lack of FAPE for all special ed students, not the school size. Remember Gibson said "so-called twice exceptional" and Gibson has been a driving force on the board. Read what FCPS did to help a fragile student and it was not adequate.
9. Newspaper articles from years ago [during construction planning period ] indicating areas for inclusion at South Lakes?
10. Did Sully know about #9 and if so why the addition at the Westfield site?
11. Was that Westfield addition built solely as a "holding area" until the South Lakes renovation was completed?
12. Why did South Lakes get an addition [new 2 story art wing}? When people vote for renovations they don't realize the scope of jobs or the fact that there might be more in the package.
13. How much space does the culinary academy use?
14. Where's a more detailed break-out on McNair and locations for FRPM as well as LEP for Westfield and Herndon? Westfield McNair seems to have a large % of Asian LEP.
15. Historical boundary changes for Fox Mill, Floris, McNair, Oak Hill, Crossfield?

The Department of Justice website:
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/edo/filecomp.htm

"1. The EEOA prohibits the following practices at the elementary and secondary school levels.

...d. Assignment to other than the school closest to residence within the school district of residence which results in greater segregation on the basis of race, color, sex, or national origin."

When I questioned Dean Tisdatd and Denise James on why a Langley addition was built at a time when there was excess space at South Lakes,here was her response:

Good Morning Mr. Graves - In response to your question on Langley

Since 2005, the School Board has indicated a need to review boundaries in the western portion of the county, using space available at South Lakes High and, potentially, to a lesser extent, Herndon High School, to address facility and program issues at two very large high schools, Westfield and Chantilly. Westfield currently has over 3100 students and Chantilly currently serves over 2800 students. Moving students from Langley to Herndon or South Lakes would reduce the available capacity at these schools needed to address the more pressing enrollment/program issues at Westfield and Chantilly, especially when the basic general education, special needs students, and program resource capacity needs at Langley could be addressed with the building addition at Langley. School Board policy also discourages the creation of small split-feeder school boundaries wherever possible. The Langley attendance area includes neighborhoods in the north Reston and Herndon areas with students that feed into Forestville Elementary and Cooper Middle School. Including Langley HS in the study with the potential to send students currently in the Langley feeder pyramid to a different high school would create that type of split-feeder situation.

Langley High School is the smallest high school building in FCPS, having only 233,345 square feet (sf). The size for all other high schools ranges from 265,000 up to 450,000 sf. Due to its size, Langley has lacked many of the resource rooms and support areas available in new or renovated schools. The addition at Langley will provide general education classrooms and some of the resource and support space including a digital photo lab, wireless laptop lab space, teacher workrooms, storage areas and restrooms. The addition will increase Langley’s capacity to 2100 students. This capacity is very much in line with the School Board’s recently affirmed policy that states that an ideal capacity for new high schools would be 2000 students.

With the building addition, Langley will be able to accommodate its projected enrollment of up to 2080 students over the next five years. The enrollment for Langley includes approximately 132 students with some form of disability requiring special education services. These students are generally in classes that have significantly lower pupil teacher ratios than the general education program.

The statement in the FY 2008-2012 CIP regarding the inability of schools adjacent to Langley to solve the Langley overcrowding issue is confusing if not taken in context with the larger west county study. While not clearly articulated, the statement was made in light of the fact that a boundary study would likely be undertaken based on the availability of capacity at South Lakes and Herndon to solve the Westfield/Chantilly problem. The potential for this study is noted in the Cluster I and Cluster VIII Summary of Capital Improvement Recommendations contained in the CIP.

Capacity accommodation for all schools is reviewed yearly as a part of the CIP development process. Generally, a boundary adjustment for a school would only be considered after it has been determined that other capacity accommodations such as trailers, modular additions, or program adjustments are not appropriate.

Hope this helps to answer your question – Denise James

Forum Reader Wrote:
but South Lakes could
> also, or instead, build on its focus on the global
> village and become a foreign language magnet for
> general ed students growing up in foreign language
> immersion programs.
>
A magnet high school will not do anything to help build a larger community for South Lakes.

> As for size, can you clarify what you mean by
> "function in an equitable manner"? If you mean
> curriculum, as has been repeatedly stated, if you
> want AP and honors courses you have to get rid of
> IB and pre-IB. If you mean sports, band, etc, IB
> Diploma Candidates are known to be involved in
> their schools - it is part of their requirement
> for the IB Diploma..
>

There are plain old general education electives that students have not been able to get because there aren't enough to fill the spots.


> If you just "feel too small," here are the 30 Sep
> 07 student numbers for the three smallest FCPS
> high schools. If it is really viewed as important
> to get high schools up to about 2,000 students
> (realistically, maybe 1,700 to 2,300) then it
> would appear Madison students should shift
> eastward to Marshall and Falls Church.
> Falls Church - 1318
> Marshall - 1325
> South Lakes - 1443


South Lakes 1443 includes a 150 student MMR center. The extra space lets us draw students for that center from areas outside the regular boundaries for those centers. Those students are not part of the general education population for course selection though.

Do Falls Church and Marshall have as much capacity? Then I'm sure they'll be addressed in future boundary studies.

Just because there are other problems to fix, doesn't mean that fixing this problem is wrong.

This study is happening to help South Lakes address its low population, which leaves it unable to offer classes that most other high schools in the county regularly offer.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Department of Justice website:
> http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/edo/filecomp.htm
>
> "1. The EEOA prohibits the following practices at
> the elementary and secondary school levels.
>
> ...d. Assignment to other than the school closest
> to residence within the school district of
> residence which results in greater segregation on
> the basis of race, color, sex, or national
> origin."

Why are you posting this? I guess it could have been used as part of the argument to leave McNair at Westfield.

I thought that point was settled?

Thomas More Wrote:
> Pity. Seems there wasn't a real desire to
> understand what's going on at SL and only a desire
> by you to score some kind of silly debating
> points. Better luck next time.


I know the student population of the South Lakes pyramid is low for all grades, not just high school. It's not a puzzle to me.

The difference is that an elementary school with low enrollment still offers the same education to all the students enrolled at the school. In fact, they're liable to get more than students at overpopulated schools. They don't remove part of the fourth grade curriculum due to low enrollment. In a high school, there are parts of the curriculum that are available only when there are enough students to sign up for the classes.

If you want to ask questions of FCPS then go ahead. It doesn't require an alliance on a message board.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Department of Justice website:
> http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/edo/filecomp.htm
>
> "1. The EEOA prohibits the following practices at
> the elementary and secondary school levels.
>
> ...d. Assignment to other than the school closest
> to residence within the school district of
> residence which results in greater segregation on
> the basis of race, color, sex, or national
> origin."

Redistricting with de-segregate, not segregate, so this doesn't apply.

WashingToneLocian Wrote:
> Redistricting with de-segregate, not segregate, so
> this doesn't apply.

I assume you meant "...WILL de-segregate". Interestingly, though, the current boundaries would seem to fall into this category...

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A magnet high school will not do anything to help build a larger community for South Lakes.
>
> There are plain old general education electives
> that students have not been able to get because
> there aren't enough to fill the spots.
>
> South Lakes 1443 includes a 150 student MMR
> center. The extra space lets us draw students for
> that center from areas outside the regular
> boundaries for those centers. Those students are
> not part of the general education population for
> course selection though.
>
> Do Falls Church and Marshall have as much
> capacity? Then I'm sure they'll be addressed in
> future boundary studies.
>
> Just because there are other problems to fix,
> doesn't mean that fixing this problem is wrong.
>
> This study is happening to help South Lakes
> address its low population, which leaves it unable
> to offer classes that most other high schools in
> the county regularly offer.

1. All high schools have Special Ed students, including schools with fewer students than South Lakes:
Falls Church - 1318 total; 180 Special Ed
Marshall - 1325 total; 132 Special Ed

2. Are you ready to go through more boundary discussions all over again next year? It sure seems simpler to do it all at once.

3. If you want the courses that AP schools offer, then you have to eject IB. As long as South Lakes is an IB school, you will have pre-IB and IB courses instead of the curriculum you seem to want, On the other hand, if you like IB, then stop complaining. Stuart is not much bigger than South Lakes and Marshall is even smaller AND has an academy and they are both managing just fine - without trying to take unwilling students from neighboring areas.

Speaking of program offerings at various schools, look what just appeared in the Madison PTSA newsletter:

"Here at Madison, Principal Mark Merrell has informed the PTSA of planned reductions in academic programs to accommodate system-wide budget cuts. Average class size would increase by 0.5 or 1.0, but, because of legal and physical restrictions on increasing the size of some types of classes, other classes could have 36+ students. To accomplish this, under consideration are offering certain classes only every other year instead of annually, and cutting some AP science instructional time in half, making what have been two-period classes into one-period classes. The goal is to reduce the number of sections by 8 to 10 (for a 0.5 class size increase) or 16 to 20 (for a 1.0 increase). Either two or four full-time teaching positions would be eliminated."

Anyone else getting messages like this from their principals?

The City of Falls Church has about 115 seniors. There are 2 significant curricular differences between the Fairfax County IB high schools and the City of Falls Church high school.

First, the City of Falls Church offers "college prep" classes that are harder than basic and easier than honors, IB or AP classes. FCPS no longer offers that intermediate level at any of its base high schools, either IB or AP.

Second, the City of Falls Church requires its HL Math students to also take Calculus BC, in addition to offering Calculus AB and Calculus BC as stand-alone options. The few students who need more math than this usually land at TJ.

> http://www.fccps.k12.va.us/gm/counseling/info-file
> s/course%20description%20book%202007-2008.pdf

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Department of Justice website:
> http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/edo/filecomp.htm
>
> "1. The EEOA prohibits the following practices at
> the elementary and secondary school levels.
>
> ...d. Assignment to other than the school closest
> to residence within the school district of
> residence which results in greater segregation on
> the basis of race, color, sex, or national
> origin."


And your point is what? The revised boundary scenario results in greater segregation (of whom) and so the Fox Mill/Floris "affluent" folks would be moved unlawfully? Are you joking? It's Christmas time. Not April Fools day.

I think we can resolve this Redistricting issue.Check out my new thread "The alternative to Redistricting".

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FCPS no longer offers that intermediate level at any of
> its base high schools, either IB or AP.

FCPS does have honors courses, at an IB school they are called Pre-IB or IB SL. It also has regular college prep courses, Algebra, geometry, biology, chemistry and foreign languages are all college prep courses.

> http://www.fccps.k12.va.us/gm/counseling/info-file
> > s/course%20description%20book%202007-2008.pdf

link didn't work.

Forum Reader Wrote:
>
> 1. All high schools have Special Ed students,
> including schools with fewer students than South
> Lakes:
> Falls Church - 1318 total; 180 Special Ed
> Marshall - 1325 total; 132 Special Ed

Are those kids with a Special Ed designation or part of a Special Ed center that's in the school? Regardless, this study is not about Falls Church or Marshall.
>
> 2. Are you ready to go through more boundary
> discussions all over again next year? It sure
> seems simpler to do it all at once.

This study doesn't cover the entire County, and it seems infinately more complicated (and unlikely) to do it all at once.

>
> 3. If you want the courses that AP schools offer,
> then you have to eject IB. As long as South Lakes
> is an IB school, you will have pre-IB and IB
> courses instead of the curriculum you seem to
> want, On the other hand, if you like IB, then stop
> complaining.


I'm not talking about AP classes, but general education electives.

I'll try again with the link to the course catalogue for the George Mason HS in the City of Falls Church:

http://www.fccps.k12.va.us/gm/counseling/info-files/course%20description%20book%202007-2008.pdf

The City of Falls Church provides more levels of classes for college-bound students, compared to any FCPS high school, even though it has far fewer students per grade than any FCPS base high school. This is not an AP vs. IB issue.

For example, City of Falls Church 9th and 10th graders choose from three levels of English: General English; College Prep English; and Honors English. Juniors choose from three levels: General English 11; College Prep English 11; and IB English 11. Seniors choose from four levels of English: General English 12, English 12 College Prep, IB SL English 12, and IB HL English 12.

Fairfax County base high schools offer one less level, to my knowledge. In the FCPS AP base high schools I know, 9th graders choose between English 9 and honors English 9. Don't the FCPS IB base high schools offer only 2 choices too - English 9 and pre-IB English 9?

Restonian Wrote:

> > 3. If you want the courses that AP schools
> offer,
> > then you have to eject IB. As long as South
> Lakes
> > is an IB school, you will have pre-IB and IB
> > courses instead of the curriculum you seem to
> > want, On the other hand, if you like IB, then
> stop
> > complaining.
>
>
> I'm not talking about AP classes, but general
> education electives.

There is a basic difference. AP classes peacefully co-exist with all other existing classes, but IB is a pervasive programme throughout the school. You can't just "add a few IB courses" like you do AP. And in FCPS, when you have IB, you don't have enough other high achieving students left to support AP courses as well.

The focus on IB Diploma Candidates, in conjunction with a full-time staff member just to coordinate their programme, often leads to a charge of elitism, a charge even the IBO acknowledges when is says that with “increasing student achievement in the basic areas, such as reading, math, and science, marginal students may not have an opportunity to take the IB program. Implication: This could exacerbate the perception that IB is an “elitist” program for high student achievers” [“Expanding Access: Addressing The IBO Mission In North America - International Baccalaureate North America Strategic Plan." International Baccalaureate Organization. July 2004. p. 7]].

Regarding just how pervasive IB must be throughout an IB school, the International Baccalaureate Organization states, “it must be made very clear that the programme does have a major role to play in the school and that the intrinsic values espoused by the IB DP are relevant to the whole school, are firmly embraced by the published school mission statement (or equivalent) and will have an influential role in any sections of the school that do not have an IB programme. Another condition that is very closely allied to this is that all schools must be unequivocally committed to teaching the full DP and must recognize that certificate courses have secondary importance (in the past this was not always the case, especially in North America). … [parenthetical statement is included in the text] Without a doubt, the all-important reason for teaching the IB is the DP and the benefits that are to be derived from it by diploma students. … It must be unquestionably shown that any certificate courses they may be intending to offer are subordinate to their DP, and will be specifically for students who are not intellectually or academically able to undertake the full diploma." [Goodban, John. “Quality assurance and maintenance of the International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme.” (Chapter 2 of “Implementing the IB Diploma Programme: A practical manual for principals, IB coordinators, heads of department and teachers.” Cambridge: University Press. 2004. p. 17]

Even for one-year SL courses, the IBO discourages the taking of any exams prior to the end of the senior year: "In some schools the policy has emerged of all students anticipating one or two subjects. The IBO frowns upon this system of getting two subjects 'out of the way,' which it considers to be alien to the diploma aim of encouraging concurrent learning across the curriculum of a two-year programme." [ibid]

I am a junior and I have been in the pre-IB classes and I am currently in the IB classes and I have noticed that no one seems to be answering the questions about pre-IB classes very accurately.

Pre-IB classes are generally taken only in the freshmen and sophomore years (however, I have a friend who is also a junior and is in Pre-IB Algebra II- it pretty much depends on when you take Algebra I for your math placement). From what I have read here, I would equate them with honors classes in AP schools- they are taken before the junior year when the college credit classes truely begin. At South Lakes, there is also the Middle Years Program, which begins in 7th grade at Langston Hughes and ends in 10th grade at South Lakes (students who did not go to Langston Hughes can begin the program in 9th grade, end in 10th grade and still receive the certificate for full completion). From my experiences with it, I think MYP is designed to prepare the students for the IB Diploma program that begins the next year. Instead of writing the 4,000 word exteded essay that is done for the IB Diploma, the students complete a Personal Project towards the end of 10th grade (they have about a year to do it). This project is fairly open-ended; the student is allowed to choose anything that they are interested in and I think the emphasis in the evaluation is the process, not the workload. Also, MYP assessments are integrated into all of the student's classes. It is required that one of the electives is a language and the other some form of art in order to qualify as having the appropriate classes for the MYP certificate.

The pre-IB classes are in History, Science, English, and Math. In the sophomore year, IB students take the first year of an IB science (most choose Chemistry, but some choose Physics). In order for a science class to count for the diploma, the student must take two years of it (I think the exception to this is Standard Level Biology, but everyone who was in pre-IB science took pre-IB Biology as Freshmen). The other class that can be taken IB in the sophomore year is Math, but that is only if they intend to take Higher Level math their senior year. Higher Level Math is only taken by students who take Algebra I in 7th grade (or go to summer school in order to finish Algebra II before their sophomore year).

As for Standard Level classes, I would by no means rank them as college prep classes for students not capable of the full IB Diploma. The way the Diploma program works is that you must take at least 3 higher level classes, but no more than 4. You must also take at least 6 IB classes to cover the subject areas (English, Foreign Language, History, Science, Math, Art- this can be music, art, or theatre) and Theory of Knowledge, which most students take after school- this class is 1 semester of each year. Since there are 6 required subject areas and the requirement is 3 or 4 Higher Level Classes, this means that 2 or 3 Standard Level classes are required. The Standard Level classes are still IB classes and are still above the intermediary college prep that was described in other posts. In fact, I know that French and Chemistry are taught at the Higher Level for everyone and Standard and Higher Level students are in the same room. The distinction between the two groups is in the test that they take (that is what I know based on what my French teacher said this year and my Chemistry teacher last year). I think that the other classes work the same way with the exceptions of the arts, but I do not know for sure. I take IB Theatre, so I can tell you that SL is taken as a junior and HL as a senior. As of now, the only difference between the two are word counts and performance requirements, but my teacher said that the requirements for IB Theatre will change next year.

I hope that clarifies things for everyone about pre-IB and SL classes. Honestly, the program that the student takes does not affect their success, it's what they make out of it. IB will not prevent anyone for achieving good test scores or put them at a disadvantage in college if the student is open to the program,is willing to learn from their teachers,and puts in the necessary work.