Please let's not start talking "minority" and "race" here. We ended that conversation 50 pages ago, to good effect.

Clarifier - the fact that our public schools are often not responsive to consumer demand is a significant problem. Now, FCPS are more responsive to that demand then many other lesser school districts, but there is a marketplace for education (particularly in a well off area like Fairfax) - no better demonstrated than by the population shrinkage at SLHS - fair or not - and the schools would be wise to listen to consumer demand, especially when, whether you agree with it or not, it is in many respects rational. And it is tough to sustain popular support for a program that in its intended and fullest expression benefits relatively few. Again, none of my comments are really intended in derogation of the IB program - I just do not understand the defensiveness of the pro-IB responses - does every aspect of SLHS have to be defended to the hilt? Certainly the school is capable of accomodating an AP program - and it would seem to make sense to do so - at least in math and science areas. And I am not certain how to respond to the relative monopoly held by the College Board - that seems a market phenomena beyond our ken that given its reality, most parents would prefer to accede to. Again, why the defensive tone?

Given that Tisdale said (like Lao Tse) that the four options were not the options, it seems that opens the door to look at many types of modifications. Someone posting here suggested that Crossfield could be moved, and I know of some who were advocating for that in comments sent to FCPS. So it's legit for consideration. Just wanted some more thinking on that point.

I would LOVE Crossfield to go, whole hog -- because I'd go too! Wouldn't have to pupil-place into SL. I'm trying to find something that will work in January and that will meet SL needs.

Unfortunately, Coppermine and boundary is still TBD, and we shouldn't based on current discussino on TBD projections. If you look at the pending development related to Coppermine, you shall see they are all north of Frying Pan (except one pending) and are within the current McNair boundary.

For folks not living in Floris but likes to talk about it, the travel disctance to SLH is 6.69mi, compare to 3.57 from Fox Mill, and 3.23 mi from Crossfield.


Re: high school redistricting new
Posted by: Clarifier (IP Logged)
Date: December 10, 2007 03:13PM


West Floris Dad wrote: > It a shame you do not understnd that kids living in other part of Floris, not east part, are walkers to Floris. They not go to Coppermine. You do split Floris. No part of Floris close to South Lake.<

You may not understand that Coppermine has not been built yet -- it's just about to be. Some Floris kids will be sent there once Coppermine is built. The issue of which Floris kids will go there is one for a future debate.

SLVerity Wrote:
> ... I would love it if the County would call
> the two programs equal after doing something to
> equalize both programs (e.g., add IB English to AP
> schools, add AP math to IB schools) ...

------
I apologize - I thought you were familiar with the basics of IB. You are [unkowingly, I am sure] advocating an illegal act. No one other than an authorized, full-up, dues-paying IB school may even hint that they offer IB-like courses. The IBO is very protective of its programmes and all its courses. This is not an insult, it is merely an example of a business exercising quality control.

Go to http://www.ibo.org/faq/

The very first question:
Q. Can any student enroll in an IB programme?
A. Only students enrolled in an IB World School may participate in an IB programme.

Third FAQ: “The IB permits only students enrolled in and attending IB World Schools to participate in an IB programme.”

-----------------
More details as to the level of IBO control can be seen in these excerpts from “Information For Prospective Schools.” International Baccalaureate North America and The Caribbean. November 2004. pp. 18-23.

“Authorized schools agree to abide by all the IBO regulations and procedures, which govern the programmes they are authorized to teach.”

“Authorized schools must make it clear to relevant authorities, students and parents that the IBO is independent from the schools.”

“The IBO will provide an administrative infrastructure designed to facilitate the implementation of IBO programmes by authorized schools and their teachers. “

“The IBO will administer examination and assessment procedures and will ensure their autonomy and integrity.“

“Candidate schools agree to abide by all the IBO regulations and procedures which govern authorization to teach the IB programmes.”

“Swiss law governs these Rules for Authorized Schools and all other documents relating to authorization to teach an IB programme. Any dispute arising from or in connection with these Rules for Authorized Schools or any other document relating to authorization to teach an IB programme shall be finally settled by three arbitrators in accordance with the Rules of Arbitration of the Chamber of Commerce and Industry of Geneva. The seat of the arbitration shall be Geneva, Switzerland.”

“The school must be committed to the promotion of international understanding through education, as expressed in the mission statement of the IBO. The school must accept the philosophy of the IB programme(s) it wishes to teach, as expressed in the relevant documents describing the programme.”

When someone calls someone defensive, does that make them defensive?

The issue of IB is pretty simple. It's there. It's part of the culture. It works. It provides as good as or better education than other programs. It ain't goin' nowhere. And really, why should South Lakes give up its entire persona and being just to allay some fears a few parents have? What would people say if they were asked to turn their AP school into a Montessori or Waldorf school because a bunch of other nearby schools were Montessori and Waldorf schools? (And I know of two communities in NY that were asked to do that!)

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

How's this:

IBO: “The school must be committed to the promotion of international understanding through education, as expressed in the mission statement of the IBO...."”

College Board on AP: "Broaden Your Intellectual Horizons
Explore the world from a variety of perspectives, most importantly your own..."

Those whose kids are going to be part of a global economy -- YOU decide.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:

Well, since you obviously think AP is superior, then let's just add AP courses to SL and then disallow pupil placement.

staff

Clarifier Wrote:
... We have a set of "consumers" who have
> never seen or heard of IB until a month ago, nor
> seen the inside of South Lakes ever.
>
> Imagine turning our school system over to
> "consumer demand." How, exactly, is demand
> measured? Who's the consumer, exactly? (children?
> Their parents? The people who end up hiring the
> products of the education system? Businesses who
> draw people to the community? Taxpayers regardless
> of whether they have kids or call this area their
> home?) ...
>
> Finally, and my main argument, why should the
> College Board run the entire school system? Who is
> IT accountable to? Why are folks so willing to
> foster a MONOPOLY? What is wrong with competitive
> rigorous programs that both do the same thing --
> educate our children and prepare them for the
> future? Pupil-place out, then, but give it a
> chance first -- otherwise it's called "prejudice,"
> or "pre-judgment."

-----------
Clarifier,

First, you have an interesting question as to defining the "consumer" of the public school system, one I would love to explore in depth on another forum.

By now everyone reading this forum knows I am very familiar with the IB program. What you do not know is that I first saw the inside of South Lakes over a decade ago - not that I understand what that has to do with anything.

My fellow forum readers also know I agree the IB Diploma Programme is a wonderful opportunity for about seven percent of the students, but is not so wonderful for the rest. I have presented extensive arguments as to why not. Referring to others' opinions of IB as "prejudice" is again bringing you close to the land of name-calling.

What is the sudden antipathy toward the College Board? Why do you think they are "running the entire school system"? It would make far more sense to rail against No Child Left Behind, or the Federal or Virginia Departments of Education, for establishing regulations that affect local education.

What is the IB?

The IB program is not an international school, but a group of programs designed to encourage multiculturalism.

From a Guide to Diplomme Authorization:

"The International Baccalaureate Organization was founded in Geneva in 1968 and aims to develop inquiring, knowledgeable and caring young people who help create a better and more peaceful world through intercultural understanding and respect. These programmes encourage students across the world to become compassionate learners"


Alec Peterson was the first Director-General of the International Baccalaureate Organization (IBO). Each year a person is given the honor of presenting a lecture in honor of this man and the program he developed.

Dr. Martha C. Piper, former president, University of British Columbia.
IB Peterson lectures, 2007:

" IB graduates demonstrate social responsibility and the values of global citizenship, both as members of the community and as citizens of the wider communities to which we all belong. It promotes the values of a civil and sustainable society through its emphasis on international exchange and community service."


Dr. Nicolas Tate, current Director-General of the IBO.
IB Peterson lectures, 2004:

"Alec Peterson's answer to the question 'what is education for?' is explicit in his writings and his many and wide-ranging educational activities. He believed above all in education's potential contribution to international understanding and world peace. This is what shaped and continues to shape the IB programmes and is enshrined in the IBO's mission statement.


So, folks. Remember, this is about creating global citizens, whatever that means, a sustainable society, whatever that means, and.... ofcourse, let's not forget about World Peace.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Question: Who was it here who suggested moving the
> Crossfield boundary to bring in more kids? Could
> you discuss the numbers? I can't find numbers that
> show where that boundary should be drawn to ensure
> there are at least 500 (IMO) kids coming to SLHS
> to help with the numbers needed for more course
> options.
>
> I have been thinking about Crossfield east of West
> Ox Road going to South Lakes. You won't find a
> lick of support for the Franklin Farm folks going
> from the other side of those tracks -- and an
> enormous and highly organized opposition.
>
> Also, what does that do regarding domino-effect?
> Oakton is ok with numbers and Crossfield goes to
> Oakton, so who goes to Oakton to fill in, without
> bringing up proximity issues? (i.e., take whom
> from Chantilly and bus them much further than
> they're going now?)
>
> I really am curious about how this might work out
> since that part of Crossfield is really close to
> South Lakes, and already several neighborhoods are
> going there.


I believe the county puts the Crossfield numbers at around 570. If you take any part of Crossfield, that will create an enormous backfill problem for Oakton. They would have to take the Navy kids or the Oak Hill kids, and both those scenarios are ridiculous from a proximity standpoint. As I have said many, many times, without Madison in the mix you just can't take Crossfield without decimating Oakton...unless you backfill with more than just Navy. One only needs to look at a LARGER map to see why Oakton's boundaries are the way they are. Madison goes way out Vale Road, halfway to Fox Mill. Fairfax is on the other side of Oakton and is under enrolled so Oakton can't get students there. IF they were to include all of Madison, and take Flint Hill elementary and move it to Oakton, then they could move Crossfield and/or Fox Mill to SL. Otherwise, it just won't work. The other thing I keep hearing is that Crossfield is already a SL feeder, so just add more to it. Why on earth would you move 540 kids to appease the 30 that actually feed SL??????? The ONLY kids from Crossfield going to SL are the walkers who number about 30. If you take "East Crossfield" you won't get many kids, you will further split the school and it would create an island for the rest of Crossfield and Fox Mill...unless they take Navy...which again makes no sense.

Crossfield/SL Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> huh? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Posted by: Clarifier (IP Logged)
> > Date: December 10, 2007 12:01PM
> >
> >
> > "Put some numbers to these assertions and give
> the
> > source because the shortfall is several hundred
> > kids each year. "
> >
> > In that case, moving two communities like Fox
> Mill
> > and Aldrin, or Fox Mill and East Floris, or Fox
> > Mill and East Crossfield, or East Crossfield
> and
> > Alrdin, etc
> >
> > Clarifier- What on earth is East Crossfield??
> We
> > asked that split feeders not be created and
> > neighborhoods be preserved, why does this
> thought
> > even occur to you? Please respect our request
> as
> > it has been acknowledged to this point.
> >
> > Also pulling from Crossfield creates an Island
> and
> > /or causes more students to be backfilled to
> > Oakton...possibly from Oak Hill or that
> elementary
> > that butts right up again the back of
> Chantilly.
> > Is this what you want? Don't care of the impact
> as
> > long as you get yours? Also, there are a lot of
> > trees and very few kids if I assume what East
> > Crossfield consists of. Amazing!
>
>
> It would make perfect sense to create an East
> Crossfield. You know very well that a portion of
> us already attend SL and there is ALREADY a split
> feeder at our school. No one ever mentions that.
> A few more neighborhoods east of West Ox Road
> would solve that problem and wouldn't create any
> additional feeders. It would just make our feeder
> a little bigger. Just to be fair, Floris is not a
> feeder school and they're trying to CREATE feeders
> for a school that was already moved out of Oakton.
> There no such East or West Floris. It would be
> so nice to have more Crossfield students with us
> at South Lakes. It would solve so many problems.
> This wouldn't cause any problems for Fox Mill
> either and there would be no islands.


How would it not create an island to have everyone east of West Ox at SL and the others on the other side of West Ox at Oakton? Also, even though there are a handful of kids from Crossfield that go to SL, 30 out of about 570 barely qualifies as a split feeder. You will be hard pressed to find anyone at Crossfield to go along with that....other than the parents of the other 29 kids. Move 540 kids to placate 30? Does that really make sense? Where will Oakton get kids to replace that? Crossfield is about 1/3 of Oakton. Look at a much larger map and you will see that.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> What I see is that some
> parents don't even give IB a chance because they
> don't like SL for other perceived reasons and the
> IB vs. AP argument is just as excuse.

That also speaks volumes if parents will take advantage of any excuse possible to move their children out of South Lakes. I'm CONFIDENT that the pupil placement is requested by the kids, not the parents (for the most part). If the kids were happy and content with their Langston Hughes/ South Lakes peers, they wouldn't be pupil placed out (again, for the most part.)

I believe there should be both choices in school, but as long as there is some form of challenging, advanced classes, I'm happy. At this point, I don't know if my daughter will want to take advanced classes (either AP or IB) as she is not in middle school yet. I hope she will, but it will ultimately be her choice as she will be the one doing the work.

huh! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clarifier or someone posing as such,
> What purpose does it serve to pull new boundry
> situations into play at this point. The student
> numbers to the east do not exist. I encourage
> everyone to study the material that was handed out
> at the meetings, it shows where kids live within
> each district and shows proximity to high schools.
> The maps are also very helpful.
>
> Believe it or not, Crossfield is the next closest
> school (after Navy) to Oakton of all the schools
> under consideration for movement. How about
> backfilling McNair to Oakton...GREAT IDEA!
>
>
> Let's not split hairs to get an additional 35-65
> kids to SLHS. Take the whole school or none. And
> remember...an outlaying culdesack does not define
> a split feeder. Per me, split feeders are defined
> as such that 20% of students do not go to the same
> high school ;)


Excellent points!!! This process has been flawed from the get go...but to add schools now that were not part of the original scenarios would make things go from flawed to just ridiculous. Unless of course they want to go ahead and put Madison and Langley into the mix. Then they could come up with some reasonable scenarios that wouldn't involve saving commute time for some by increasing it for others. And I particularly agree that a few students should not a split feeder make.

Clarifier - you are taking a stubbornly myopic position. This is not an academic exercise about the ideal persona of a school. SLHS needs students, and they need a big slug of relatively dedicated or at least decent middle to upper middle class students. The school will not in the long run prosper with 1400 students, especially given the sizable slug of challenging students it must continue to carry. And to decry the loss of a persona is a little like an 8th round draft NFL choice desiring first round draft choice money - the leverage simply isn't there. Given that SLHS needs students, and preferably good ones, a little flexibility might make sense, especially given that the participation levels of the IB program hardly seem robust.

BirdLover posted:

What is the IB?

The IB program is not an international school, but a group of programs designed to encourage multiculturalism.

From a Guide to Diplomme Authorization:

"The International Baccalaureate Organization was founded in Geneva in 1968 and aims to develop inquiring, knowledgeable and caring young people who help create a better and more peaceful world through intercultural understanding and respect. These programmes encourage students across the world to become compassionate learners"


Alec Peterson was the first Director-General of the International Baccalaureate Organization (IBO). Each year a person is given the honor of presenting a lecture in honor of this man and the program he developed.

Dr. Martha C. Piper, former president, University of British Columbia.
IB Peterson lectures, 2007:

" IB graduates demonstrate social responsibility and the values of global citizenship, both as members of the community and as citizens of the wider communities to which we all belong. It promotes the values of a civil and sustainable society through its emphasis on international exchange and community service."

Dr. Nicolas Tate, current Director-General of the IBO.
IB Peterson lectures, 2004:

"Alec Peterson's answer to the question 'what is education for?' is explicit in his writings and his many and wide-ranging educational activities. He believed above all in education's potential contribution to international understanding and world peace. This is what shaped and continues to shape the IB programmes and is enshrined in the IBO's mission statement.


So, folks. Remember, this is about creating global citizens, whatever that means, a sustainable society, whatever that means, and.... ofcourse, let's not forget about World Peace.


_____________________________

Tonight, at the meeting, I bet they don't talk about those global citizens or sustainable societies. That globbledigook would scare us all off. What the hell is a global citizen? And, sustainable society?? That is actually so stupid, it's funny.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How's this:
>
> IBO: “The school must be committed to the
> promotion of international understanding through
> education, as expressed in the mission statement
> of the IBO...."”
>
> College Board on AP: "Broaden Your Intellectual
> Horizons
> Explore the world from a variety of perspectives,
> most importantly your own..."
>
> Those whose kids are going to be part of a global
> economy -- YOU decide.
-------------
Here are the opening web pages for IB and AP, not including links or sentences explaining the links:
------------------------

Quality education for a better world

The International Baccalaureate (IB) offers high quality programmes of international education to a worldwide community of schools. There are more than 582,000 IB students at 2,168 schools in 125 countries.

---------------

About AP

AP can change your life. Through college-level AP courses, you enter a universe of knowledge that might otherwise remain unexplored in high school; through AP Exams, you have the opportunity to earn credit or advanced standing at most of the nation's colleges and universities.

Why Participate?
With 37 courses and exams across 22 subject areas, AP offers something for everyone. The only requirements are a strong curiosity about the subject you plan to study and the willingness to work hard. Here are just a few reasons to sign up:

Gain the Edge in College Preparation
* Get a head start on college-level work.
* Improve your writing skills and sharpen your problem-solving techniques.
* Develop the study habits necessary for tackling rigorous course work.

Stand Out in the College Admissions Process
* Demonstrate your maturity and readiness for college.
* Show your willingness to push yourself to the limit.
* Emphasize your commitment to academic excellence.

Broaden Your Intellectual Horizons
* Explore the world from a variety of perspectives, most importantly your own.
* Study subjects in greater depth and detail.
* Assume the responsibility of reasoning, analyzing, and understanding for yourself.

How Do I Enroll?
Once you've decided to take the AP challenge it's easy to enroll.
* Talk to an AP teacher or the AP Coordinator at your school about the course you want to take. Discuss the course's workload and any preparation you might need.
* If you are a homeschooled student or attend a school that doesn't offer AP, you can still participate. Each year hundreds of students participate through independent study. Some states even sponsor online AP courses.

Clarifier Wrote:
> And, once more, even huge Robinson, the largest
> IB school in the state if not the world, cannot
> support both BC Calculus and IB-HL math<
>
> OK OK. I get it. You want your child to take BC
> Calculus. I get it. So -- enroll him at NOVA. Or
> work to get it at your school. ...

----
I must apologize again - I thought you were asking for AP Calculus to added to the South Lakes curriculum.

Was that someone else, and you do not want any AP courses?

Or do you want some AP courses but not calculus? If so, which courses do you seek?

The only AP course indicated at Stuart is government. That seems like a good course to offer to South Lakes pre-IB sophomores. That way it would not at all conflict with the IB programme.

We can quote from the IBO and College Board forever to support either program, but you're missing the point I was making.

IBO makes it clear it is fostering global understanding. AP does not. I find it rather amusing that the CB officially cares more about students "finding themselves" so to speak than about figuring out what the rest of the world is like or what everyone ELSE cares about. AP is "broadening intellecutal horizons" by having kids explore the world from the most important perspective -- the kids'? With all their worldy experience?

This global understanding and holistic approach is what I find most valuable about IB. Others can disagree, but it isn't more or less valid a program as a result. If others find it in AP, good for them. But AP is siloed -- classes are taught without regard to neighboring disciplines. We can go back and forth on this. Anyone TRULY interested in the differences should get out there and talk with students and teachers who are well versed in the programs.

That's why I ask that those with kids about to enter a global economy decide for themselves which sort of approach they'd like their kids to take.

Oh, and here's the really funny thing. Read that AP page carefully. If you ask me, that is what ANY GOOD HIGH SCHOOL should be offering in its CORE program. AP is stating things that, if not included in a high school REGARDLESS OF AP, would make me reject it out of hand. What does AP add? I fail to see, based on that page, what makes AP stand out. It only serves to support the argument that AP has defacto become standard fare at high school. One could infer that if you don't take AP courses, you're in remedial education.

So perhaps we'd better leave the marketing to the "experts" who may not be doing such a great job of it, and stick to reality.

AP courses offer students greater challenges, advancement, and college credit, IB courses offer students greater challenges, advancement, and college credit.

Now, back to getting more kids into South Lakes who can/will take those courses.

Lets get back on topic about stopping the redistricting. Forget about AP versus IB. If you are in favor of IB just pupil place to Sl. If you are in favor of AP then support STOPRD.ORG.

Keep spreading the word about the corrupt school board member Stu Gibson, the DOE did find him guilty. he should not be allowed to vote nor remain on the board.

SLVerity Wrote:
>
> So your data does not tell us about the
> socioeconomic status of the students taking the AP
> or IB exams. Are there not significantly more
> students in AP schools? Are the IB schools not
> concentrated for the most part in schools with
> higher FRM students? How can you compare raw
> numbers when AP is the predominant curriculum
> taught in FCPS? Perhaps the hispanic and AA
> students taking AP are from solid middle class
> families with educated parents. For example, my
> child's college roommate is Hispanic (Engineer
> father, PHd mother). You can't make assumptions
> about the status of those students.

------------
Although I was given IB and AP success data by sorted by race and school I cannot find source data indicating IB and AP success by sorted by school and socio-economic status (as the SOL data are sorted). I suggest you ask at tonight’s meeting that these data be posted on the FCPS website.

BirdLover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
>
> So, folks. Remember, this is about creating global
> citizens, whatever that means, a sustainable
> society, whatever that means, and.... ofcourse,
> let's not forget about World Peace.

BirdLover,
I don't see what your point is here. There is absolutely no reason why creating a global citizen, a sustainable society and aiming towards world peace would be bad. Shouldn't we all be aiming for this as individuals. I suppose that if you would rather your child be single minded and only care for his own race then fine, but I say if the IB program is willing to make my child a more well rounded and accepting of others then I would rather they go there then anywhere else.
Just something to chew on..

>Clarifier - you are taking a stubbornly myopic position<

Would you mind identifying yourself? You mistakently posted as me.

Nothing I've said precludes several options, but jettisoning IB is NOT one of them. That is hardly myopic - given the genuine differences between AP and IB on the philosophical front and on approahc (holistic vs. silo) and the value of, ahem, CHOICE in our otherwise monopolized curricula. I am favoring one redistricting option at the moment based on a lot of information. Ready and willing to change my mind on that one, if compelling info comes around.

Well, I'm off to see a "Group 4 Physics" project my son is presenting in his IB program tonight. (Group 4 means he did it with three other disciplines -- an interdisciplinary project with Chemistry, Sociology, and English. Most kids not DP kids. Had a blast. Literally. Physics, you know.)

TTFN

FME Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > What I see is that some
> > parents don't even give IB a chance because
> they
> > don't like SL for other perceived reasons and
> the
> > IB vs. AP argument is just as excuse.
>
> That also speaks volumes if parents will take
> advantage of any excuse possible to move their
> children out of South Lakes. I'm CONFIDENT that
> the pupil placement is requested by the kids, not
> the parents (for the most part). If the kids were
> happy and content with their Langston Hughes/
> South Lakes peers, they wouldn't be pupil placed
> out (again, for the most part.)

You are deluding yourself if you think that pupil placements out of SL based on AP/IB are student-driven. I would put it more at about 99% parent-driven.

well I say that all the males and females should be seperated and redisctricted to other schools. Students should be only taught with their own sex. Puberty is a time of MASS distraction and Hormones are the enemy of all education! Send all the females to South Lakes and the Males to herndon or Vienna or wherever. Problems solved.

FME Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I don't think you should let your personal experience from many years ago cloud your judgement now. South Lakes has a great atmosphere now and I doubt that you would find it to be the same place that you disliked - I am assuming at least 10 years ago.

There are obviously others posing as regulars and hijacking names in order to create diversions as to the scenarios. Please ignore and stick to the 4 plans.

SLHS Padre Wrote:
> Don't let the truth get in the way of a good
> rant.....
>
> For example,
>
> "Goucher will grant credit for IB exam scores of
> at least 5 in higher-level subject areas.
> Students who earn a full IB diploma may be
> considered for sophomore standing."
>
> I heard from the folks who pay the bills that SLHS
> 06 and 07 grads at Princeton, MIT, UVA, UMW,
> VaTech, JMU, UNC,.... received credit for IB
> classes.

-------------
I, at least, have agreed all along that IB HIGH LEVEL courses are roughly equivalent to AP courses, However, most students only take STANDARD LEVEL courses.

Look back over the last few pages, like my post of December 08, 2007 01:49AM. It quotes the UVA catalogue: "The College of Arts and Sciences offers possible credit for scores of 5, 6, or 7 on most higher-level IB examinations. We award no credit for standard-level examinations."

PAL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are obviously others posing as regulars and
> hijacking names in order to create diversions as
> to the scenarios. Please ignore and stick to the 4
> plans.


Sorry Pal, but possibly you weren't at the December 3rd meeting. Dean Tisdadt, of the facilities staff, specifically said at the last meeting that it is highly likely that the final scenario presented WILL NOT be one of the 4 but rather a combination of them.

Therefore, it does make sense to discuss other scenarios/options.

YeahSL wrote:

"BirdLover,
I don't see what your point is here. There is absolutely no reason why creating a global citizen, a sustainable society and aiming towards world peace would be bad. Shouldn't we all be aiming for this as individuals. I suppose that if you would rather your child be single minded and only care for his own race then fine, but I say if the IB program is willing to make my child a more well rounded and accepting of others then I would rather they go there then anywhere else.
Just something to chew on.."

___________________

I'm all for global citizens, just wish I knew what they were. How will I ever know when I meet one? And, this doesn't mean I don't love our globe. I do. Not a day goes by when I don't think about our globe, all alone, spinning on its axis.

A sustainable society... That sounds really important and very smart. But, once again, I'm stumped. Don't have a clue what that means. Have you ever visited Biosphere ll out in Arizona? That was an attempt to create a balanced and sustainable replica of Earth's ecosystems. It failed due to a loss of oxygen. But, a sustainable society? What, exactly, would we be sustaining and why does it need to be sustained?

World Peace.. no such thing, unless we're invaded by Martians with bigger guns than we have. Oh, but, don't get me wrong, I'm all for it.

BirdLover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> \> World Peace.. no such thing, unless we're invaded
> by Martians with bigger guns than we have. Oh,
> but, don't get me wrong, I'm all for it.


Remember kids you can be a birdLover just not a BIRD MOLESTER. there is a differance. Just ask that big Pecker BurpGun

I think raping Oakton to benefit South Lakes and the warm fuzzy feelings of the School Board is a great idea! Why not take a huge chunk out of the only school in the study that has no capacity issues except it’s proximity to SL. We of course all need to disregard the proximity of Langley and Madison, because the school board says it must be so. Let’s just take out a cool nine hundred or so of Oakton kids (Crossfield and Foxmill) and put them in South Lakes! How enlightened. We don’t need to do much backfilling for this scenario to take place, right? Just move about the same number of kids out of Chantilly to fill up Oakton. Move a whole bunch out of Westfield to fill up the overcrowded/newly under enrolled Chantilly. Take a few out of Westfields to feed Herndon. Let’s make sure SL also gets one of Herndon’s more affluent schools. Maybe SL wants to be the overenrolled school. Who knows at this point?

This is all complete and utter nonsense.

We live right next to Chantilly High, sending us to Oakton makes no sense. I can see Navy moving to Oakton but it is wrong to send any other Chantilly school there as they are west of the Fairfax County Parkway, too far!

It seems SouthLakes people only think of themselves and picking who they want. We can't afford the time or money to be involved in my kids school if I have to drive 100 miles to it. Don't assume all of us other people have a lot of money just because we live in Fairfax.

well I propose they just use the Old Lorton Prison and redistricting ALL your bad asses to THAT facility as a new SChool. How about THAT? Kids could never cut class cuz they'd never get over the barbed wire!

I will proudly go to Oakton if they take Fox Mill, Crossfield and Navy...every one of us. Otherwise...pupil place...count on it.

Don't f&%^ with the geographics Stu!

Madison is a sad story in diversity...proof being a white tailback on their football team, and a starter at that!

Sorry, forgive my bad taste on this one.

oh man when the Che' whities start taking over athletics you KNOW your school is done for!

Well said tictedoff... there is zero chance of that happening anyway.

Yes, it is true the SL people have exposed themselves as the greedy little SOBs that they truly are in their quest to de-diversify their school.

Lorton prison is the only answer! ship THEM all off there for a semester and see how THEY like it.

Who was it calling other posters obnoxious...let's see??? I think it was...the man/woman of few word(s).

The tiny George Mason HS in the City of Falls Church has a well-regarded IB program. It also offers both AP Calc AB and AP Calc BC. Apparently, all 14 seniors last year who took HL Math also took Calc BC. Why not in FCPS?

Sorry, here's the link to the web page for the City of Falls Church's program:

http://www.fccps.k12.va.us/board/reports/curriculum/highLevelMathParticipation03_07/srFinalMathCourse.htm

>>>Why does college credit earned for AP coursework differ from same for IB coursework<<<

Because it is MUCH easier to earn MORE credit in AP than IB. For a poor student, going to NOVA or Mason, it's a HUGE advantage to finish college in three years rather than 4 or 5 years. Surely you can do the math on that.

>>>Principal is already looking at Stuart.<<<

Great! What has he instituted?

>>>>My sources at the county tell me that Option 3 is the one they are going forward with.<<<<

Don't they always? Option #3 is always the one staff wants.

>>>>We don't throw out AP because it doesn't include indepth study of other cultures.<<<

Oh darn. And that would be SO important to the future of our students. How will they EVER grow up to study medicine, find a cure for cancer, or really figure out string theory, or sit on the Supreme Court, or win the Nobel Prize in physics, without an IN DEPTH study of other cultures? AP is going to ruin our society. I am shaking my head in disbelief that we even allow AP in our schools.

You're right, we need to chuck AP with all it's silly emphasis on math, science and technology. It's more important that we study the culture of France and Nigeria to say nothing of New Guinea and Christmas Island.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2007 09:29PM by Neen.

Are you sure AP's emphasis is on math, science, and technology? What does that say about AP Histoy, English, and other subjects?

Quantum,
Excellent question, why are the South Lakes parents so defensive of IB?

BTW, does IB offer a Quantum physics course? AP does, although I understand from my son, it is rather difficult. Although not a par with string theory for difficulty.

>>>the schools would be wise to listen to consumer demand<<< Why would they do that when they simply redistrict and attempt to force more students to attend a particular school. If that doesn't work, they can try another educational fad, like IB. I just don't see any motive for them to change how they've done things for 100 years or so.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The tiny George Mason HS in the City of Falls
> Church has a well-regarded IB program. It also
> offers both AP Calc AB and AP Calc BC.
> Apparently, all 14 seniors last year who took HL
> Math also took Calc BC. Why not in FCPS?

----------------
Short answer:
Fairfax County FY 2007 Cost Per Pupil: $12,853
Fairfax County FY 2007 Student/Teacher ratio: 28.5

Falls Church City Public Schools FY 2007 Cost Per Pupil $17,700
Falls Church City Public Schools FY 2007 Student/Teacher ratio: 22.0

>>>>The issue of IB is pretty simple. It's there. It's part of the culture.<<<<

IB is part of what culture? The South Lakes culture? Interesting. Another good thing for parents in other schools to know.

I for one enjoyed the presentation tonight. Compared to my relative ignorance of both IB and AP, I have to say that I appreciate the increased knowledge on IB directly from the source, and not through hearsay.

There were some good questions, and most answers were adequate. Could've gotten a better response about transferable credits, though.

>>>The IB program is not an international school, but a group of programs designed to encourage multiculturalism.<<<

GAG.......I am SO glad we are getting this education in what IB is all about.


>>>Remember, this is about creating global citizens, whatever that means, a sustainable society, whatever that means, and.... ofcourse, let's not forget about World Peace.<<<<

How perfect for the liberals in Reston! No wonder they love and defend IB!

Any idea what kind of jobs are in 'World Peace' and "global citizenship"?

Perhaps our IB students aspire to be Al Gore when they grow up.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quantum,
> Excellent question, why are the South Lakes
> parents so defensive of IB?

Asked and answered several hours ago. Most people respond in real time, not Neen time.
>
> BTW, does IB offer a Quantum physics course? AP
> does, although I understand from my son, it is
> rather difficult. Although not a par with string
> theory for difficulty.

Do you live for these posts so you can throw in comments about your TJ/Rodman scholar son? Boy I feel sorry for your other child who didn't make it to TJ. He/she must feel like a real slacker. Is that child taking macrame at Madison instead of string theory at TJ?

>>>Literally. Physics, you know<<<

No, literally, not. Real physics requires REAL calculus and has nothing to do with sociology.

>>>>Nothing I've said precludes several options, but jettisoning IB is NOT one of them.<<<

Clarifier, you need to keep hammering home this point. Parents really need to know that they will NOT get AP at South Lakes. I hope that everyone will remember that on the 19th and mention in their groups so that ALL parents are aware of it.

>>>>IBO makes it clear it is fostering global understanding. AP does not.<<<<

VERY important for all of our students who want to President or an ambassador. Probably less important for those who want to be doctors, scientists, accountants, math teachers, computer engineers, physicists, biologists, or US attorneys.

But still, very nice.

Why redistrict? The main objective for redistricting is to solve overcrowding. However, the overcrowded schools are not truly overcrowded according to the Studies, particularly when you look a few years down the line.

The majority of communities from Herndon, Chantilly, Oakton and Westfields want to stay with their current HS. Amusingly, many are volunteering "other people's neighborhoods" to go to South Lakes! So we've pitted neighborhood against neighborhood because everyone assumes it is a fact that the redistrictiog should happen.

My conclusion is that redistricting is not justified for overcrowding.

What about South Lakes? It seems many believe SL needs to get higher test scores and stronger academics. Adding 700+ students that on average have stronger academic skills, does not magically raise the performance of the current SL population. It seems to me, that the county should put more resources into helping the children who need greater assistance. Adding 700 students from the other schools just masks this problem.

The FCPS should address how to help these children directly. This is the real issue that won't change by just adding more students.

Editorial in the Oakton High School student newspaper:

http://www.oaktonoutlook.com/?c=123&a=1216

Some of you may find it interesting.

>>>>Are you sure AP's emphasis is on math, science, and technology? What does that say about AP Histoy, English, and other subjects?<<<

No, the emphasis on math science and technology is only in comparison to IB program. I apologize for not making that clear.

Since 9:17pm, 10 posts by Neen (who does not live in the Boundary Study area), seven by others (counting this one). Agitator?

Neen Wrote:

> VERY important for all of our students who want to
> President or an ambassador. Probably less
> important for those who want to be doctors,
> scientists, accountants, math teachers, computer
> engineers, physicists, biologists, or US
> attorneys.

Wait just a second everybody, the answer is right friggin' under our noses! Make South Lakes the TJ for the humanities. The magnet concept has gotten so much debate, well maybe it should stray from the Science and Technology direction and go to the Liberal Arts instead.

Waddya say?

>>>I appreciate the increased knowledge on IB directly from the source<<<

Who was the source? An FCPS IB staffer?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>I appreciate the increased knowledge on IB
> directly from the source<<<
>
> Who was the source? An FCPS IB staffer?

Oh, I'm sorry, were you not there?

>>>>Make South Lakes the TJ for the humanities<<<<

I would say that the GT community has advocated for that for YEARS! It's a wonderful idea and very much needed in Fairfax county. The problem is, Stu Gibson. He will NOT agree. I believe his exact words were "over my dead body".

Our school board, and liberals in general, do not like schools for smart kids who want to focus on learning.

For God's sake Neen, would you back off and let others post without sniping and biting at their heels over every comment? Why don't you direct your energy to the FCPS school system, instead of using this forum to rant against South Lakes, IB, the School Board, Stu Gibson, and liberals? Have I left anyone on your hate list out? Is your life so unbelievably empty? If so, boy do I feel sorry for you.

> Our school board, and liberals in general, do not like schools for smart kids who want to focus on learning.

With that in mind, I guess the only remaining option would be to make SL a TJ for underachievers

>>>>I guess the only remaining option would be to make SL a TJ for underachievers<<<<

Hahahaha..........I think it's already achieved that!

>>>If so, boy do I feel sorry for you<<<

Why? I'm having fun! Aren't you? Or are you still trying to get the hang of multi tasking?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>Make South Lakes the TJ for the
> humanities<<<<
>
> I would say that the GT community has advocated
> for that for YEARS! It's a wonderful idea and
> very much needed in Fairfax county.

If TJ for Sci-Tech can work so brilliantly, why can't a repurposed SL for the humanities? I'd bet LOTS of folks would want to go.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>If so, boy do I feel sorry for you<<<
>
> Why? I'm having fun! Aren't you? Or are you
> still trying to get the hang of multi tasking?

Warning, Neen and Neenesis are the same people, er, person. Take your meds, both of you, er, just the one of you...

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>I guess the only remaining option would be to
> make SL a TJ for underachievers<<<<
>
> Hahahaha..........I think it's already achieved
> that!

Neen, have you no shame? That was really a very uncalled for comment and says a lot about you. You never miss an opportunity to take a gratuitous slap at SL and its students. Your lip service pretending to care about the students of South Lakes, and the disadvantaged ones in particular is just that; you have revealed in a few short words how mean-spirited you are and that you actually don't give a sh%*.

No self-respecting parent would speak that way about any school and its students, let alone one that they purport to care about.

In case anyone would like to see how George Mason HS in the City of Falls Church offers an amazing array of classes to its students:

http://www.fccps.k12.va.us/gm/counseling/info-files/course%20description%20book%202007-2008.pdf

People from Fairfax County have paid tuition to send their children to this IB school.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>I guess the only remaining option would be to
> make SL a TJ for underachievers<<<<
>
> Hahahaha..........I think it's already achieved
> that!


I can almost hear Ernestine the operator snorting away at the hilarity of her own.......jokes?

Neen -- How will you and your twelve personalities really feel when SLHS has 700 new kids in the IB program, and Stu Gibson is there for the grand reopening.

Will that get your goats?

>>>How will you and your twelve personalities really feel when SLHS has 700 new kids in the IB program, and Stu Gibson is there for the grand reopening.

Will that get your goats?<<<

Nope. I only have dogs, no goats.

Seriously, how would SL ever get 700 students? No grandfathering? Change to AP immediately?

I would love to see an immediate improvement for students at South Lakes. Who wouldn't? I just don't see your school board doing what is necessary for the kids in Reston to make that happen.

>>>Warning, Neen and Neenesis are the same people, er, person. Take your meds, both of you, er, just the one of you...<<<<

Get real. He is NOT me. He'd be appalled at the thought.

>>>No self-respecting parent would speak that way about any school and its students, let alone one that they purport to care about<<<<

It was a JOKE. Get a life. And a sense of humor.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I would love to see an immediate improvement for
> students at South Lakes. Who wouldn't?

Could have fooled us by your prior comments. Maybe we should start calling you Sybll.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>If so, boy do I feel sorry for you<<<
>
> Why? I'm having fun! Aren't you? Or are you
> still trying to get the hang of multi tasking?


As we were saying the other day in our IB support group yoga class while discussing the latest liberal group-think, wondering how the weather was in IB Central over in Wales, and wondering to whom we would cede our decisionmaking authority that particular day:

"Parva leves capiunt animas"

...and then we all laughed a tinny little laugh, with Neen foremost on our frontal lobes.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>No self-respecting parent would speak that way
> about any school and its students, let alone one
> that they purport to care about<<<<
>
> It was a JOKE. Get a life. And a sense of humor.

Some joke, Neen. Isn't that what Hillary's handlers said last week when she made the comments about Obama's kindergarten essay and they didn't go over so well with the general public.

The School Board seriously needs to abandon the quick fix and start plans for a creative solution - SL to be the Humanities magnet school.

actually this thread is quite tame compared with the new thread on redistricting

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The School Board seriously needs to abandon the
> quick fix and start plans for a creative solution
> - SL to be the Humanities magnet school.

Berdhuis, as one whom I think respects the position of others, please consider that the people of South Lakes don't want a magnet. It will do nothing to help the base school students. A TJ West would only serve the most advantaged students in our district and would be like a separate school on the same campus.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2007 10:59PM by SLVerity.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> actually this thread is quite tame compared with
> the new thread on redistricting

Perhaps you should jump over there and take Neen with you. I've seen it and it's right up your alley;)

SLVerity - as one whom I think respects the postion of others, please consider that Armstrong/Aldrin/Floris/McNair/Crossfield/Fox Mil, etc. don't want to go to your school. It would do nothing for their education.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> word Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > actually this thread is quite tame compared
> with
> > the new thread on redistricting
>
> Perhaps you should jump over there and take Neen
> with you. I've seen it and it's right up your
> alley;)


On the other thread, one has to be both funny and in poor taste. So W and N are disqualified.

SLHS Padre - glad you find it funny

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity - as one whom I think respects the
> postion of others, please consider that
> Armstrong/Aldrin/Floris/McNair/Crossfield/Fox Mil,
> etc. don't want to go to your school. It would do
> nothing for their education.

And how do you know that?

Word said:
>>>SLVerity - as one whom I think respects the postion of others, please consider that Armstrong/Aldrin/Floris/McNair/Crossfield/Fox Mil, etc. don't want to go to your school. It would do nothing for their education.<<<

Word,
You are SOOOOO good. You crack me up. So good, so true, and so dang funny. What a shame that the folks at South Lakes all their funny bones removed and can't appreciate your humor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2007 11:08PM by Neen.

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > word Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > actually this thread is quite tame compared
> > with
> > > the new thread on redistricting
> >
> > Perhaps you should jump over there and take
> Neen
> > with you. I've seen it and it's right up your
> > alley;)
>
>
> On the other thread, one has to be both funny and
> in poor taste. So W and N are disqualified.

For the former, I assume. I do think some of it is funny (e.g., SL ALums raising the flag at Iwo Jima, SL Alum taking the first step on the Moon).

SLVerity - You've been smokin too much weed, if you think anyone wants to be redistricted to South Lakes. Where have you been? You have no idea how opposed your neighbors are to this.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>I guess the only remaining option would be to
> make SL a TJ for underachievers<<<<
>
> Hahahaha..........I think it's already achieved
> that!

Worth quoting again, for the sheer lameness of it - on all levels.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity - You've been smokin too much weed, if
> you think anyone wants to be redistricted to South
> Lakes. Where have you been? You have no idea how
> opposed your neighbors are to this.

I really hope that Crossfield is added to the mix, as I suspect that's where you live, if only to think of you driving your kid to and from Oakton every day.

Bless your heart SLVerity. We can always count on you for a kind word or two.

Got mail?

SLVerity - as one whom I think respects the position of others, the Crossfield people are extremely opposed to being moved to SL. I know I can count on you to respect their wishes.

To: Neen who wrote this:

"Perhaps our IB students aspire to be Al Gore when they grow up."

__________________

Hello, neen.

Do you realize I have just accepted the Nobel Peace Prize? DO YOU?

And, so what about my private jet. I need to get around our globe quickly. I have to alert all my global citizens that many non-global citizens have waged war on the earth, itself. Nobody is listening. This is no better than Churchill who ignored Adolph Hitler's threat.

And, about my 10,000 sq.ft house in Nashville....An important man like me needs a nice home. My other digs, in Carthage and D.C.? Again, don't you get it? I AM IMPORTANT. Do you expect me to live like the rest of you? ARE YOU THAT STUPID?

And, remember, I live a carbon-neutral lifestyle.

I welcome all IB students to join me in my quest to stop America and all its big ruthless companies from ruining our Globe..... except for Heinz. Go ahead, and buy that ketchup. Great stuff.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FME Mom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> I don't think you should let your personal
> experience from many years ago cloud your
> judgement now. South Lakes has a great atmosphere
> now and I doubt that you would find it to be the
> same place that you disliked - I am assuming at
> least 10 years ago.


SLVerity,

I was just reiterating your point when you said, "What I see is that some
parents don't even give IB a chance because they don't like SL for other perceived reasons and the IB vs. AP argument is just as excuse."

Exactly.

While I'm sure some are truly moved out for curriculum and have no hard feelings against the school and its population, there is LIKELY a large populus of those who had difficulty or jsut didn't want to cite "Adjustment" and found another means of transferring to another school.

I am not the only person I know who moved out of South Lakes, nor is everyone I know who left (or was miserable) now thirty something.

Actually, we've been speaking with some who would like to come:).