Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can anyone tell me why South Lakes' parents are so
> opposed to AP? Without South Lakes converting to
> an AP program, most parents from other schools
> aren't going to send their kids to South Lakes.
> If they had wanted an IB program, they would be in
> one. So what's wrong with South Lakes becoming an
> AP school?


The majority of South Lakes parents would LOVE to have AP return. But that seems about as easy as you all fighting the redistricting.

>>>>The majority of South Lakes parents would LOVE to have AP return<<<

I am VERY surprised to read that since most South Lakes parents here seem so wedded to IB. If the new parents moving in want AP, and the current parents do too, surely that would hold some sway with FCPS and Stu. Wouldn't it?

I guess not, they don't seem to care what the people in the county want. But surely they know by now that their IB experiment has not been successful.

>>>IB is supported by a small cabal who appreciate the disproportionate allocation of teacher resources their children get though the programme,<<<

AND they're all good liberals who want to hug the world, but not the US.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>The majority of South Lakes parents would LOVE
> to have AP return<<<
>
> I am VERY surprised to read that since most South
> Lakes parents here seem so wedded to IB. If the
> new parents moving in want AP, and the current
> parents do too, surely that would hold some sway
> with FCPS and Stu. Wouldn't it?
>
> I guess not, they don't seem to care what the
> people in the county want. But surely they know
> by now that their IB experiment has not been
> successful.


I don't think its so much that they are wedded to the program. I think it has to do with explaining that students in the program get just as much of an education as AP students and that it should not be as big a reason for not wanting to come to South Lakes as some people are making it. South Lakes had it shoved down their throat and after fighting it for years, it has become tiring. Thats why you don't see everyone up in arms over it at this point in time.

Regarding how pervasive IB must be throughout an IB school, the International Baccalaureate Organization states the following. “It must be made very clear that the programme does have a major role to play in the school and that the intrinsic values espoused by the IB DP are relevant to the whole school, are firmly embraced by the published school mission statement (or equivalent) and will have an influential role in any sections of the school that do not have an IB programme. Another condition that is very closely allied to this is that all schools must be unequivocally committed to teaching the full DP and must recognize that certificate courses have secondary importance (in the past this was not always the case, especially in North America). ... Without a doubt, the all-important reason for teaching the IB is the DP and the benefits that are to be derived from it by diploma students. … It must be unquestionably shown that any certificate courses they may be intending to offer are subordinate to their DP, and will be specifically for students who are not intellectually or academically able to undertake the full diploma." [Goodban, John. “Quality assurance and maintenance of the International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme.” [Chapter 2 of “Implementing the IB Diploma Programme: A practical manual for principals, IB coordinators, heads of department and teachers.” Cambridge: University Press. 2004. p. 17.]

That only makes sense in the fact that if you are going for the certificate, you may not be taking all your classes IB. They are the same classes...

Here I am again. Let's get this straight. Most parents at SLHS SUPPORT IB. All this talk about dropping IB in favor of AP there won't get you a can of beans. Maybe the results of eating them, though.

There IS support for ADDING AP courses to fill in the IB program.

Y'all have fun talking among yourselves, now. Gets you lots of good, objective information that way.

(For the few of you who are somewhat reasonable, don't forget that AP/IB information meeting tonight at South Lakes.)

" It must be unquestionably shown that any certificate courses they may be intending to offer are subordinate to their DP, and will be specifically for students who are not intellectually or academically able to undertake the full diploma."

If so few students actually earn an IB diploma, I wonder about the characterization that other students are not intellectually or academically able to do so.

From the College Board on AP:

"Why Participate?
With 37 courses and exams across 22 subject areas, AP offers something for everyone. The only requirements are a strong curiosity about the subject you plan to study and the willingness to work hard. Here are just a few reasons to sign up:.."

Um -- wouldn't you say that those "only requirements" were the very requirements for high school, period? Shouldn't ALL courses require some curiosity and hard work? AP is now becoming a means for kids to get college credit, and nothing more. The biggest criticism AP has received from thousands of teachers and researchers is that it has now been watered down so much it is nothing but standard high school fare. Kids taking courses as Freshmen or Sophomores? What is that? Doesn't that tell you something about its value and rigor? (Or are people so arrogant that they think THEIR kid is so darn smart, and thus support AP becasue THEIR kid can hack it?)

So - go ahead and quote the IBO, but you're doing it in a vacuum. The College Board and IBO both promote "their" programs -- but the difference is that IBO makes not bones about the fact that it really is a step above the norm.

> Most parents at SLHS SUPPORT IB.

Perhaps that is true today. But after adding 700 kids from AP schools that will no longer be the case. IB is on it's way out for sure.

Forum Reader: You might have missed that the quote from IBO you gave is about quality assurance. It is one of the key distinguishing factors between the IB and AP programs. IB requires that not only the course curriculum withstand quality measurements, but also that the teachers teaching it endure ongoing quality assessments to make sure they are teaching it to the highest quality levels possible. This happens throughout the year, and kids really respect it. The teachers and kids both know that the teachers are being assessed.

The problem in the past is that schools offering certificates were beginning to water down the IB courses, just like they had watered down the AP courses. This was unacceptable for maintaining the good quality and standards IBO requires. So the difference between the certificate and diploma programs -- and notice this is about them, not the individual courses! -- had to be made quite clear.

AP, of course, has nothing like this kind of quality assurance.

Clarifier Wrote:
> There IS support for ADDING AP courses to fill in
> the IB program.
>
------------
As I have written over and over, the IB Diploma Progamme is wonderful for that seven percent that earns it. "Without a doubt, the all-important reason for teaching the IB is the DP and the benefits that are to be derived from it by diploma students."

But why would the the other 93% want IB in their school? "It must be unquestionably shown that any certificate courses they may be intending to offer are subordinate to their DP, and will be specifically for students who are not intellectually or academically able to undertake the full diploma."

The master schedule MUST revolve around the IB Diploma candidates who MUST receive the courses required in their programme, even if only a handful of students sign up for them. When resources are limited (as they are in EVERY FCPS school) the remaining classes are subject to elimination, overcrowding, or “three levels of language in one class with one teacher.” In FCPS only huge Robinson manages to support both IB and several AP courses (AP Bio, Comp. Sci, English Lit, Calculus AB, Government, Stat, and US History).

If you don’t like the impacts of the Diploma Programme on the rest of the school, or if you want the curriculum benefits of AP, then get rid of IB.

FR: I see you have a big concern about this, so I really suggest you go to the meeting tonight and see if your concerns (and, frankly, misconceptions) can be addressed. I'm afraid you won't find the schedue thing a big deal. I have experience with IB at both South Lakes and Marshall. Both small schools. Really, it is not a big deal for non-diploma or diploma kids. Relax.

Let's see. Latin. Can't find enough qualified teachers, period, at any school. Spanish, same thing. Mandarin, same deal. So teachers double-up classes. Has nothing to do with kids wanting classes and not getting in. Classes "subject to elimination" - happens at every single school. Again, what school actually PROVIDES all the courses it lists in its "wish list" of a prorgram? Does that mean the class was "eliminated," if it wasn't actually provided? The lack of facts and abundance of assumpsions here is astounding!

Forum Reader, didn't you pupil place your children elsewhere? Why must you continue to advocate against the majority? You fought this fight before and lost. I've invited you to join an effort to supplement IB with some AP courses, and you haven't responded in the affirmative, so I have to assume that you are only for your agenda, which has always been to get rid of IB at South Lakes. Your arguments are stale and tired - we've heard them all before. Plus, your audience here is very limited. Have you noticed that the same people post and say the same things over and over and over again.

To anyone reading posters saying that a majority at SL don't support IB, they are not giving you any numbers, are they? If the parents of SL wanted to chuck IB, it would have been done when Forum Reader made her Herculean effort before. She wasn't successful, her tactics were questionable, her spins were often negated with facts. If her arguments had been straightforward and grounded in truth, many would have supported her. But she let emotion get in the way of facts and to this day still fights to destroy the school and the very community in which she lives. Not a real good track record, IMHO.

And please don't accuse me of making personal attacks. If Forum Reader were proud of her efforts, she wouldn't have to stoop to that kind of tactic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2007 10:46AM by SLVerity.

Forum Reader has been to a zillion IB/AP meetings, and would like nothing more than to continue to advocate against IB.

That is why FR continues to suggest (willfully and erroneously) that the IB program caters to the narrow few who pursue the IB Diploma and overseas study, without benefit to other students who choose not to pursue the Diploma.'

My kids took a number of IB classes, but have not pursued the IB Diploma b/c they had sports, work and other commitments. But they have benefited quite substantially from the rigor of the IB classes.

They probably would have done well in AP, too, but to suggest that there is some wide cultural (i.e., Eurocentric....or some other faux perjorative) and achievement gap between AP and IB is foolish fear-mongering.

Throw it in the same pile as the SLHS gang/thugocracy yarns. It's intended to create anxiety and resistance.

Thanks Verity and Padre. I needed that slap! I'll treat FR the same way I treat N**n and the Fighting Cock. Ignore virulence. Whew. Nearly got sucked into that one! :-)

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Verity and Padre. I needed that slap! I'll
> treat FR the same way I treat N**n and the
> Fighting Cock. Ignore virulence. Whew. Nearly got
> sucked into that one! :-)

Any time.

Clarifier Wrote:
> ... AP is now becoming a
> means for kids to get college credit, and nothing
> more. The biggest criticism AP has received from
> thousands of teachers and researchers is that it
> has now been watered down so much it is nothing
> but standard high school fare. Kids taking courses
> as Freshmen or Sophomores? What is that? Doesn't
> that tell you something about its value and rigor?
> (Or are people so arrogant that they think THEIR
> kid is so darn smart, and thus support AP becasue
> THEIR kid can hack it?) ...
>
-------
Be careful, Clarifier – you are drifting into insults again.

Advanced Placement exams are exactly that: they help colleges place those students who arrive with more extensive college preparation.

FCPS, for all its failings, does do a better than average job of preparing our children for college. Look at how many take Algebra I in middle school - and thus can take AP Calculus in high school. If these "darn smart" students (your words) prove they master the material in high school, they can place out of it in college. Do you object to such acceleration? If you do object, why are you trying to add AP courses?

While only students in an IB course may take an IB exam, any student, even IB students, may take AP exams. [However, data on the state web site for the 05-06 school year show Lee students took no AP exams of any type, two students at Marshall took at least one AP exam, one at Mt Vernon, and three at South Lakes. The other four IB schools had far more AP participation.]

Clarifier, you already know this, of course, but for parents new to all this: The College Board runs both the SAT and the AP programs. The SAT II exams are subject-specific and, like AP and IB-HL exams, help colleges decide which students can skip the “Freshman 101” courses.

Many college students arrive needing these introductory-level courses, but students who scored well on AP, SAT II, and often IB -HL exams have far more flexibility right from the beginning of their college careers. Because they have already mastered some of the basic required coursework, both AP and IB students can graduate early. Far more commonly, however, these accelerated students take the same number of courses but have room in their schedules to explore new topics , get a second major, or simply take fewer courses during an especially challenging semester.

SLHS Padre Wrote:
... to suggest that there is some wide cultural (i.e.,
> Eurocentric....or some other faux perjorative) and
> achievement gap between AP and IB is foolish
> fear-mongering.
>
-------
Now you also are drifting towards insults. Where have I implied the IBO's world-view is "bad"? Or used the word "Eurocentric"? Let's try to stick to the discussion.

The Commonwealth of Virginia requires a level of familiarity with the history and government of this nation that exceeds that provided in the IB programme, but FCPS addresses this shortcoming by having potential IB Diploma Candidates study these subjects earlier in their high school career.

I think high school students should study American civics & government as seniors, when they are getting ready or just starting to vote, pay taxes, register for the draft, and otherwise assume the responsibilities of adulthood. That is a relatively minor timing issue, however, and would not in itself cause me to pupil place my children to another school.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most parents at SLHS SUPPORT IB.

No poll has been taken of South Lakes parents to establish this assertion as a fact. So neither of us knows what the majority of South Lakes parents want.

The constant shortfall in yield of high school students at South Lakes from the South Lakes feeder elementary schools over the last 5-10 years could be explained as parents voting with their feet and moving out of the South Lakes attendance area to get away from IB.

IB was involuntarily imposed on South Lakes. An informed plebicite of the parents at South Lakes elementary feeders should be allowed to resolve this dispute.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP, of course, has nothing like this kind of
> quality assurance.

The College Board reviews and approves the cirricula for every AP Course before they will approve it.

The best quality assurance is the test results.

It is a known fact that SL loses students from its feeder schools because 6 out of the seven feeder schools have magnet or GT programs that pull in students from other pyramids. At the end of sixth grade many naturally move back to their base pyramid. At the end of 8th grade, many Hughes students naturally return to their base pyramid for high school, and a few go on to TJ. Thus, our Pyramid is whittled down by virtue of the number of students here in earlier grades for special programs, not out of a preference for AP over IB.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2007 11:37AM by SLVerity.

Neen - I am a very active SL parent. I don't support IB and would prefer to seeing AP introduced at SL. In fact I am hoping that due to the re-districting that SL promises to add AP classes as early as next year.

I also support any school coming to SL including McNair. Please don't speak for all SL parents. You don't know what you are talking about.

TM: Do you have the data to determine exactly why or IF parents "vote with their feet?" I do not think so.

How about: Housing is too expensive when I'm ready to move up? or This is a transient community with military and state department families? Or We live in subsidized housing and when we earn enough, we look to move and housing in Reston is at a premium because people LOVE it here and don't sell? IB has nothing to do with it. Get real. For a numbers guy, you're really off kilter here.

In addition, IB was not FORCED on South Lakes. There was at least two years of discussion and even more years of planning that went into it, and while many were skeptical because it was new, that does not mean they had it "shoved down their throats." And we had certain people doing their nasty falshood thing, riling up fears. The process could have been more inclusive, that is true, but IB is now supported (and growing by the year in this country) -- though SOME people want to go in and stir up a few nests, and there are always nests in any school. That is water over the dam AND under the bridge. Those who want to make South Lakes the best it can be do it no service by stirrup up THIS little nest.

Keep focused on the real need here and Move On.

Forum Reader

Keep up the good work. Don't let Clarifier and Verity's attempted bullying stop you. All criticism of South Lakes or IB is to be shouted down because, unlike every other human construct, both are perfect as currently constituted.

No one knows what the majority of South Lakes parents wants unless they have commissioned a poll on the issue.

I'm the one who described IB as eurocentric. I'm happy to debate that characterization with anyone. Start with the two text books used and let's review them.

Adding AP to supplement IB is a terrific idea. I support it. So do many others. Let's get enough kids here to make it happen!

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... Why must you continue to advocate
> against the majority? You fought this fight
> before and lost. I've invited you to join an
> effort to supplement IB with some AP courses, and
> you haven't responded in the affirmative, so I
> have to assume that you are only for your agenda,
> which has always been to get rid of IB at South
> Lakes. Your arguments are stale and tired - we've
> heard them all before. Plus, your audience here
> is very limited. ...

The audience may be limited, but at least it is taking time to discuss the issues, not just swallow whatever lines FCPS dishes out.

My opinions have even shifted slightly from reading other's comments. I understand now why South Lakes does not want Academy students, that "part-time" students do not add anything to the school as a whole. [Congrats to the state champion Westfield football team: South Lakes sure could benefit from having boundaries that include some of your fine Bulldogs.]

However, if you love IB, I cannot understand why you wouldn't want to make the IB Diploma program more of a magnet. Encourage pupil placement, not try to force students into South Lakes who don't want to come.

I have written repeatedly why I cannot support adding AP courses. Even huge Robinson cannot support both High Level IB math and BC Calculus. [However, is anyone up for adding AP government as the tenth grade pre-IB social studies course?]

As for continuing to fight for what I believe in - it is the American way.

"To dream the impossible dream, To fight the unbeatable foe ... This is my quest, To follow that star, No matter how hopeless, No matter how far" ["The Impossible Dream" from MAN OF LA MANCHA (1972). Lyrics by Joe Darion. I'll admit I had to look up the name of the lyricist.]

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a known fact that SL loses students from its
> feeder schools because 6 out of the seven feeder
> schools have magnet or GT programs that pull in
> students from other pyramids. At the end of sixth
> grade many naturally move back to their base
> pyramid. At the end of 8th grade, many Hughes
> students naturally return to their base pyramid
> for high school, and a few go on to TJ. Thus, our
> Pyramid is whittled down by virtue of the number
> of students here in earlier grades for special
> programs, not out of a preference for AP over IB.

Put some numbers to these assertions and give the source because the shortfall is several hundred kids each year.

If this is an accurate explanation of this phenomenon then the native enrollment of the feeder elementary is much lower than described in the FCPS profiles.

I don't have numbers at hand, but every single magnet pulls students from out of pyramid - it is a fact.

--SVES has students from the Madison Pyramid.
--a majority of HWES GT students go to Carson for middle shool (HW base students are the only Reston students in that GT Center).
--HWES Arts & Sciences Magnet pulls students from all over this part of the County.
--FE GT Center has students that go on to Kilmer and Longfellow.
--LA Spanish Immersion pulls students from all over.
--Langston Hughes GT center pulls students from North Reston and Herndon-at least 50% of the GT center.

It's easy to see how the numbers add up. Also, folks living in smaller homes or townhomes when their children are little tend to move up as they get larger. The housing stock in Reston is limited, so they are forced move out if they want to move up.

"Put some numbers to these assertions and give the source because the shortfall is several hundred kids each year. "

In that case, moving two communities like Fox Mill and Aldrin, or Fox Mill and East Floris, or Fox Mill and East Crossfield, or East Crossfield and Alrdin, etc. etc. whose numbers may not provide the "buffer" some see a need for would be ok, because there has been a historic under-projection of numbers from FCPS. So numbers-wise, these moves would, in fact, allow for any potential growth in school attendance in the existing boundaries.

The problem is that the school would improve to the point that parents would no longer "vote with their feet?" So buffers are needed? Hmmmm. So adding students from middle-class communities is a GOOD thing? Regardless of where from? Hmmmmm.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TM: Do you have the data to determine exactly why
> or IF parents "vote with their feet?" I do not
> think so.

Reread the post it said "could" be an explanation for the chronic shortfall. I do know several families who have moved once their kids finished 8th grade to get away from South Lakes. Some were getting away from IB.


> IB has nothing to do with it. Get real. For a numbers
> guy, you're really off kilter here.

Neither of us has the data to know the answer. See it's the scientific method, someone posits a thesis and suggests a means to test the hypothesis.

> In addition, IB was not FORCED on South Lakes.
> There was at least two years of discussion and
> even more years of planning that went into it, and
> while many were skeptical because it was new, that
> does not mean they had it "shoved down their
> throats." And we had certain people doing their
> nasty falshood thing, riling up fears. The process
> could have been more inclusive, that is true, but
> IB is now supported (and growing by the year in
> this country) -- though SOME people want to go in
> and stir up a few nests, and there are always
> nests in any school. That is water over the dam
> AND under the bridge. Those who want to make South
> Lakes the best it can be do it no service by
> stirrup up THIS little nest.

Sorry even Verity agrees the decision was imposed by the Assistant Superintendent. With almost no prior consultation. My oldest was at South Lakes at the time.

Now is an excellent time to revisit that decision and get the support of the parents of the feeding elementary school parents.

Democracy scares you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2007 12:04PM by Thomas More.

Forum Reader,

I don't think IB or any program is perfect. I assure you that if I were in an AP school, I would find fault with portions of that program as well. As it is, my children were very well served by IB, received college credits for some classes, both attend UVa, and are generally happy with the way IB prepared them for college. They and I do not think that the purpose of high school is to rack up college credits, but rather to learn to think and reason and come armed with a set of facts on which to draw. My friends in the college academic environment comment all of the time about the necessity of reteaching many of the kids who arrive loaded with credits. At some colleges, they are not a sufficient replacement for the curriculum offered.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ... Why must you continue to advocate
> > against the majority? You fought this fight
> > before and lost. I've invited you to join an
> > effort to supplement IB with some AP courses,
> and
> > you haven't responded in the affirmative, so I
> > have to assume that you are only for your
> agenda,
> > which has always been to get rid of IB at South
> > Lakes. Your arguments are stale and tired -
> we've
> > heard them all before. Plus, your audience
> here
> > is very limited. ...
>
> The audience may be limited, but at least it is
> taking time to discuss the issues, not just
> swallow whatever lines FCPS dishes out.
>
> My opinions have even shifted slightly from
> reading other's comments. I understand now why
> South Lakes does not want Academy students, that
> "part-time" students do not add anything to the
> school as a whole.
>
> However, if you love IB, I cannot understand why
> you wouldn't want to make the IB Diploma program
> more of a magnet. Encourage pupil placement, not
> try to force students into South Lakes who don't
> want to come.
>
> I have written repeatedly why I cannot support
> adding AP courses. Even huge Robinson cannot
> support both High Level IB math and BC Calculus.
>
> As for continuing to fight for what I believe in -
> it is the American way.
>
> "To dream the impossible dream, To fight the
> unbeatable foe ... This is my quest, To follow
> that star, No matter how hopeless, No matter how
> far" ["The Impossible Dream" from MAN OF LA MANCHA
> (1972). Lyrics by Joe Darion. I'll admit I had to
> look up the name of the lyricist.]

South Lakes elementary schools are loaded with out of boundary students and special programs. It seems FCPS has not always made fiscally responsible boundary changes.

Plus IMHO some surrounding elementary schools are overcapacity for core facilities. The astronaut schools/twins seemed to decrease the high school students in 2012. Rather than present global scenarios FCPS should have developed 3 well crafted legitimate scenarios with information. Presenting anything with Oak hill to oakton was a waste of time, effort, and energy. What about all that money and community work on transportation? I guess the same crew that sent Mcnair and Floris past the airport to Westfield crafted this - last year wasn't Gibson the main advocate for bussing Mason Neck [so isolated there's a federal? burro farm] past South County around Fort Belvoir to Hayfield? In FCPS policy if a highway skirts airports and major military installations it doesn't consider the redidential areas as islands.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Put some numbers to these assertions and give the
> source because the shortfall is several hundred
> kids each year. "
>
> In that case, moving two communities like Fox Mill
> and Aldrin, or Fox Mill and East Floris, or Fox
> Mill and East Crossfield, or East Crossfield and
> Alrdin, etc. etc. whose numbers may not provide
> the "buffer" some see a need for would be ok,

Its the staff who wants to provide a buffer at all of the high schools. It probably a good idea.

> because there has been a historic under-projection
> of numbers from FCPS. So numbers-wise, these moves
> would, in fact, allow for any potential growth in
> school attendance in the existing boundaries.

And you know this how? What evidence are you relying on?

> The problem is that the school would improve to
> the point that parents would no longer "vote with
> their feet?" So buffers are needed? Hmmmm. So
> adding students from middle-class communities is a
> GOOD thing? Regardless of where from? Hmmmmm.

I don't pretend to know all of the reasons for the chronic (but hardly historic since this phenomenon is not a decade old) shortfall and I'm trying to understand it. Putting numbers to a sociological phenomenon enable better understanding.

resource allocation Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes elementary schools are loaded with out
> of boundary students and special programs.

Do we have any numbers for kids at South Lakes feeders who are from base schools outside the South Lakes pyramids?

Do we know that the staff didn't account for this phenomenon is their past projections or in the current scenarios?

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... FR continues to suggest (willfully and
> erroneously) that the IB program caters to the
> narrow few who pursue the IB Diploma and overseas
> study, without benefit to other students who
> choose not to pursue the Diploma.'
>
> My kids took a number of IB classes, but have not
> pursued the IB Diploma b/c they had sports, work
> and other commitments. But they have benefited
> quite substantially from the rigor of the IB
> classes.
>
> They probably would have done well in AP, too,
-----

The IBO states, "All schools must be unequivocally committed to teaching the full DP and must recognize that certificate courses have secondary importance."

I am NOT insulting you or your children, but it would appear students who "have not pursued the IB Diploma b/c they had sports, work and other commitments" would be categorized by the IBO [and NOT by me!] as "not intellectually or academically able to undertake" the "all-important reason for teaching the IB" [the full IB Diploma].

As a parent who hates to see children insulted (and a taxpayer who realizes IB costs more than AP) I suggest all these so-called ""not intellectually or academically able" NON-Diploma Candidates should be in AP schools instead.

I have seen the enrollment numbers and the county has over-projected SL's numbers for the last several years. I don't know where they pull their data, but the fact is that they have over-projected. Perhaps they are not breaking down the out of pyramid students in the feeders. Perhaps it is due to the transient nature of populations from subsidized housing units. Perhaps it doesn't account for housing stocks and people moving out to move up.

I hesitate to use any names on the forum, but one in our community who is very well-versed on the numbers has them in hand. I think you know who I mean and you should ask her to provide you a copy.

[Congrats to the state champion Westfield football team: South Lakes sure could benefit from having boundaries that include some of your fine Bulldogs.]

Thanks. You know, it amazes me that Madison HS doesn't win state championships left and right when VYI easily has the best youth football in the state.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> As a parent who hates to see children insulted
> (and a taxpayer who realizes IB costs more than
> AP) I suggest all these so-called ""not
> intellectually or academically able" NON-Diploma
> Candidates should be in AP schools instead.

You surely must be a very sensitive person. I don't think any children not pursuing the diploma at SL feel this way, nor should they. BTW, the class of 2006 sent a non-diploma student to UVa on an Echols Scholarship. Perhaps colleges actually look at the student, not the diploma.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader,
>
> I don't think IB or any program is perfect. I
> assure you that if I were in an AP school, I would
> find fault with portions of that program as well.
> As it is, my children were very well served by IB,
> received college credits for some classes, both
> attend UVa, and are generally happy with the way
> IB prepared them for college. They and I do not
> think that the purpose of high school is to rack
> up college credits, but rather to learn to think
> and reason and come armed with a set of facts on
> which to draw. My friends in the college academic
> environment comment all of the time about the
> necessity of reteaching many of the kids who
> arrive loaded with credits. At some colleges,
> they are not a sufficient replacement for the
> curriculum offered.
>
--------------
But I digress. Like many other fair-minded people, you seem to agree that "certificate-only" students would be just as well off in an AP school. If that is the case, and all other factors being equal, why should we continue paying the additional costs of the IB programme?

Are there any particular elements of IB that you like? Parents often mention writing - can this pedagogy be emulated in an AP school? Is it already?

Example: The extra training IB teachers received was a good idea, and so AP teachers also started to get extra training. FCPS soon realized it would be cheaper to bring the training here then to send them away for it. THEN FCPS realized it could make some money back by admitting teachers from other jurisdictions to local on-site training. A win-win for everyone.

Ive heard a rumour that all monies raised by kids at SouthLakes are to be "taxed" a percentage of that income and spread throughout the county schools. Its redisctricting the money and not the kids. Seems south Lakes Kids are to help out the less fortunate in this area.

Forum Reader Wrote:

> Are there any particular elements of IB that you
> like? Parents often mention writing - can this
> pedagogy be emulated in an AP school? Is it
> already?

Pardon me for interrupting with an answer, but I was the product of the AP system in FCPS way back in the '80's. I chose a major in college that was not technically oriented, International Affairs, and wound up writing my a$$ off. I felt I was under-prepared for that.

I made out okay, but I suspect that if I had gone through the IB programme I would have flourished in my studies.

There's my $.02

I too am the product of an IB program(me), but I'm not capable of posting long messages

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I too am the product of an IB program(me), but I'm
> not capable of posting long messages


Try changing your alias to 'words' - might help...

Berdhuis Wrote:
> ... I
> was the product of the AP system in FCPS way back
> in the '80's. I chose a major in college that was
> not technically oriented, International Affairs,
> and wound up writing my a$$ off. I felt I was
> under-prepared for that.
>
> I made out okay, but I suspect that if I had gone
> through the IB programme I would have flourished
> in my studies.
>
> There's my $.02


---------
Sounds like you should have pupil-placed into an IB Diploma Programme, but I don't think that was an option in those days.

Forum Reader Wrote:
> ---------
> Sounds like you should have pupil-placed into an
> IB Diploma Programme, but I don't think that was
> an option in those days.


We didn't have the IB Diploma Programme at Oakton HS back then. Maybe someone else had it, but I was unaware of it being in Virginia at all.

Forum Reader, pardon me, but I did not say that I, "seem to agree that "certificate-only" students would be just as well off in an AP school." I don't think that at all.

As to writing and reading, I note that South Lakes FRM students score very well on the writing and reading portions of the SOLs (sixth highest in the County - 91% passing rate) and better than some schools in this boundary study (Herndon, Westfield) that have fewer FRM students. Take from that what you will.

Posted by: Clarifier (IP Logged)
Date: December 10, 2007 12:01PM


"Put some numbers to these assertions and give the source because the shortfall is several hundred kids each year. "

In that case, moving two communities like Fox Mill and Aldrin, or Fox Mill and East Floris, or Fox Mill and East Crossfield, or East Crossfield and Alrdin, etc

Clarifier- What on earth is East Crossfield?? We asked that split feeders not be created and neighborhoods be preserved, why does this thought even occur to you? Please respect our request as it has been acknowledged to this point.

Also pulling from Crossfield creates an Island and /or causes more students to be backfilled to Oakton...possibly from Oak Hill or that elementary that butts right up again the back of Chantilly. Is this what you want? Don't care of the impact as long as you get yours? Also, there are a lot of trees and very few kids if I assume what East Crossfield consists of. Amazing!

I find this "Clarifier" to be one of the most obnoxious posters in this forum.

Clarifier - I think it is difficult to argue against the fact that the IB program - particularly the program leading to the full scale diploma - is an excellent one. In fact, it would be great if more students could complete the entire program. Looking back on my own education, I certainly would have enjoyed IB - and probably been better prepared for college - I went to about as competitive as schools as there are and did notice that some of my peers - admittedly by and large those with a Andover, Exeter, etc. type backgroun (like IB in many respects, especially their reading lists) - did well with less effort than I did, no doubt due to the depth and breadth of their education. And the IB diploma is indeed one that has both depth and breadth - not surprising given its European origins and their demonstrated lack of commitment to pluralism in education - only the best and brightest in Western Europe go to University - although that is changing.

But the point really isn't whether AP or IP is better - it is rather what serves the vast majority of the customers in Fairfax better. And some of the flexibility factors mention in previous posts appurtenant to AP make it seem like AP is a better choice for more people - even though I concur with many of your statements that the education received from an intensive IB program can be quite helpful.

But what perplexes me is why there is such a strident and defensive posture towards those that favor AP. I am perplexed. Is it because SL supporters perceive that many will pupil place in the absence of a viable AP program, and you are eager to avoid yet again another instance of SL avoidance? Or is it because SL supporters know something about the school we don't - perhaps that it will not be easy to recruit a critical mass of AP teachers? (By the way, the resumes of the assistant principals at SL, if one goes by resumes alone, seem pretty darn impressive right now - meaning that there is a commitment to quality people there - so I am not sure that recruitment would be a problem). And the defensiveness can't be borne from a view that IB is that much intrinsically better? Both programs can be challenging, and like most school experiences, they are what you make them. For the mature well prepared high IQ student, both programs permit such students to prosper. So again, while it is certainly defensible to support the merits of an IB program, to do so without giving consideration to what a considerable majority likely favors - the AP program, seems to be both strangely elitist (only 7% fully benefit), intolerant and defensive. Or is it just another case of defending the status quo? These are just thoughts that come to mind.

I can't speak for Clarifier, but the County has certainly provided a easy out for those parents who don't want SL for curricular or other reasons (which I won't mention here), in the form of pupil-placing for AP. What I see is that some parents don't even give IB a chance because they don't like SL for other perceived reasons and the IB vs. AP argument is just as excuse. In fact, I'll bet there are many parents in other pyramids having children who don't even take advantage of AP, so for them the issue certainly is moot. I would also wager that any AP student would do just as well in IB.

>>>Most parents at SLHS SUPPORT IB. All this talk about dropping IB in favor of AP there won't get you a can of beans<<<<

Please make sure that all parents who are not in South Lakes now are aware of this. Be sure that they know there is NO chance their children will be in an AP program at South Lakes. Deadlines are looming for private school for the fall and parents need to know ALL the facts before making their decisions. The fact that South Lakes will NEVER be an AP school is very important to their decisions for their children.

Thanks for letting us know about this important fact, South Lakes is an IB school, the parents there like IB, and it will never become an AP school.

Heads up folks!

>>>AP is now becoming a means for kids to get college credit<<<

Doesn't that help low income kids to complete college? What's wrong with that?

According to Jay Mathews it also helps ALL children to be better prepared for college course work. Is there something wrong with that too?

Note that I did not advocate for moving Crossfield, which is already split between South Lakes and Oakton, BTW. (So the boundary would be moved, but the split would remain.) I was pointing something out in response to TM, who wants to move Aldrin and Armstrong.

I DO advocate for moving Floris east of Centreville Road (i.e., East Floris -- it's a shortcut term) and Fox Mill, without moving McNair. Those communities are close to South Lakes and adjacent to each other. The kids now west of Centreville Road are slated, by all accounts, to go to the new Coppermine when it is built soon -- thus making "East" Floris only "FLoris" and not splitting it. This option fulfills South Lakes' need for students and disrupts the least numbers of schools. I don't like the domino effects that other options, on the table and otherwise being discussed, promote.

This allows for future flexibility -- McNair and Coppermine can be looked at once Coppermine is built to see whether it makes sense for them to go to Westfield or Herndon.

Furthermore, I have yet to hear a hue and cry from Westfield, Oakton, or Chantilly neighborhoods that are NOT Floris or Fox Mill clamoring to keep them in the fold. That's not to say it would not mean a change for those two, but the fact is that someone has to "give" here, so let's look at the reasonable options. (oh, I'm going to hear that SL has to "give" by "giving it up," so I'll say it first and then ignore it.) I AM hearing from some in McNair that they would prefer to stay with Westfield. I'm talking of folks outside FU here. With "East" Floris moving, McNair can stay in Westfield and reduce overall numbers. Or move to Herndon, which can accomodate some of them now.

And I have yet to hear Westfielders or Chantillyites arguing that they really do want to reduce enrollments or trailers.

My word, why don't we get back to the merits of which neighborhoods might best be considered for the redistricting and why? That's a debate I think has lots of merit. But not the "whether" debate. Nor the AP/IB debate, which isn't in the scope.

>>>>IBO makes not bones about the fact that it really is a step above the norm.<<<<

Gee, that sounds rather elitist. But that's to be expected from a European programme.

SLverity,
You are wrong. Forum Reader has never pupil placed her children anywhere.

>>>It is a known fact that SL loses students from its feeder schools because 6 out of the seven feeder schools have magnet or GT programs that pull in students from other pyramids. At the end of sixth grade many naturally move back to their base pyramid. At the end of 8th grade, many Hughes students naturally return to their base pyramid for high school, and a few go on to TJ. Thus, our Pyramid is whittled down by virtue of the number of students here in earlier grades for special programs, not out of a preference for AP over IB.<<<

And you don't think the same thing happens all across the county? Of course it does. It does nothing to explain the decreasing numbers at South Lakes but not at the surrounding schools.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't speak for Clarifier, but the County has
> certainly provided a easy out for those parents
> who don't want SL for curricular or other reasons
> (which I won't mention here), in the form of
> pupil-placing for AP.

I think that it will be tricky to pupil place back into our original high schools this time around. If everyone is allowed to pupil place, then how will a boundary change benefit SL? As of right now, grandfathering isn't even guaranteed (although I am assuming it will happen). Also, although my current high school is Oakton, if I wanted to pupil place for AP, my child might wind up at Herndon since that might actually be the closest AP school.

I do think that some of the AP/IB angst is really about concerns about SL in general, but for some of us it is a real, if not huge, question. I agree that both AP and IB can be good if the student works hard and has good teachers. There does seem to be some agreement that IB isn't as good for kids who want advanced math and science. I will probably go to the meeting tonight, but I honestly expect to hear the usual wimpy blah blah blah about how each program is good, etc. I feel like I've learned more in this forum, reading between the lines a little.

And, once more, South Lakers support adding AP courses to the IB slate. With enough students, we can do this. So those concerned about not having THE course they want for their kid (and, where are the kids' voices here? what do THEY want?), can come be part of the community of SL parents and students who are working to GET those courses there.

SL Verity - perplexing to me - but why provide an easy way out? offer a competitive OAP program - because it seems to reflect consumer demand. And while I know some that really would have benefited from an IB program (I myself would have really liked it, I am sure), I also know some - particularly the huge number of college age guys in my neighborhood - yes, largely engineering computer science types at Tech, JMU, Penn State, etc., that just wouldn't have found it their cup of tea and are are vastly happier with the 3 or 4 AP Calculus, Physics, Comp Sci offerings they took while they muddled along in the verbally oriented courses (and yes, Clarifier has a point when stating that they might be better in the long run with an IB background, but these kind of guys - and they fit an identifiable pattern, just won't do it). So in the end you go with what the consumers want, so long as the curricula in either case is reasonably meaningful and rigorous (which they each are). My own daughter is on her way to at least 10 (maybe 11) AP courses - and while IB is intensive, I can't imagine it being easier than the road she has chosen. Again, the programs are what you make them, but with a school seeking an increase in enrollment, it strikes me that the wise choice is one that caters to a reasonable consumer preference.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
... I
> would also wager that any AP student would do just
> as well in IB.

All other factors being equal, if students "do" equally well in two different programs, why not get rid of the more expensive program, which is IB?

For students like Berdhuis in younger years, keep one or two IB high schools, full of IB Diploma Candidates. The high concentration of internationally-focused students would support a lot of foreign language classes.

>>>They and I do not think that the purpose of high school is to rack up college credits<<<

Isn't that nice that money was available for your children to remain in college for 4 or 5 years. For many students, particularly our low income students, every college credit they can get in high school makes it more likely they will be able to afford to graduate from college. If we really cared about poor kids in this county, and their futures, we would put AP in every high school to help them earn college credits and get this elitist IB program out of their schools.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The kids now west of Centreville Road are slated, by all accounts, to
> go to the new Coppermine when it is built soon --
> thus making "East" Floris only "FLoris" and not
> splitting it.

If I understand you correctly, the children of Floris who live on the west side of Centerville Rd would go to Coppermine, even though Floris ES sits on the west side of Centerville Rd?

> This allows for future flexibility -- McNair and
> Coppermine can be looked at once Coppermine is
> built to see whether it makes sense for them to go
> to Westfield or Herndon.

In all likelihood, Coppermine will become Title I as soon as it opens its doors; does that change the calculation for whom it will feed?

> Furthermore, I have yet to hear a hue and cry from
> Westfield, Oakton, or Chantilly neighborhoods that
> are NOT Floris or Fox Mill clamoring to keep them
> in the fold.

Everyone with whom I've spoken in McNair wants to stay in Westfield, myself included.

> My word, why don't we get back to the merits of
> which neighborhoods might best be considered for
> the redistricting and why? That's a debate I think
> has lots of merit.

Opinion noted, maybe you'll get your debate.

> But not the "whether" debate.
> Nor the AP/IB debate, which isn't in the scope.

This is a valid debate, as it will allow students and parents to make more educated decisions. You have a problem with that?

Neen, we've spoken of this before, and when I asked if Madison would like to take on some of those lower-income kids, you said no thank you, that your community has gone to great lengths to insulate yourselves. Note my comment above on the success SL has had with Reading and Writing SOL scores for their disadvantaged students. I would argue that having strong communication skills will help them far more in life than AP credits. I also would like you to provide some numbers on how many disadvantaged students in FFX are actually racking up AP credits.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Note that I did not advocate for moving
> Crossfield, which is already split between South
> Lakes and Oakton, BTW. (So the boundary would be
> moved, but the split would remain.) I was pointing
> something out in response to TM, who wants to move
> Aldrin and Armstrong.
>
> I DO advocate for moving Floris east of
> Centreville Road (i.e., East Floris -- it's a
> shortcut term) and Fox Mill, without moving
> McNair. Those communities are close to South Lakes
> and adjacent to each other. The kids now west of
> Centreville Road are slated, by all accounts, to
> go to the new Coppermine when it is built soon --
> thus making "East" Floris only "FLoris" and not
> splitting it. This option fulfills South Lakes'
> need for students and disrupts the least numbers
> of schools. I don't like the domino effects that
> other options, on the table and otherwise being
> discussed, promote.
>
> It a shame you do not understnd that kids living in other part of Floris, not east part, are walkers to Floris. They not go to Coppermine. You do split Floris. No part of Floris close to South Lake.

I loathe the pupil placement option. The County added IB schools, the parents did not. The County should stand behind each program and back them both. I would love it if the County would call the two programs equal after doing something to equalize both programs (e.g., add IB English to AP schools, add AP math to IB schools) and then not allow pupil placement for curriculum. That is why I advocate for the addition of AP math and perhaps science classes to SL.

>>>>the County has certainly provided a easy out for those parents who don't want SL for curricular or other reasons (which I won't mention here), in the form of pupil-placing for AP.<<<

That only works for students with money, not poor students who don't have a parent who is home to drive them to school and/or the money to provide them with a car.

Since SL is hoping to draw from only higher income areas, yes, many of those students will pupil place out of South Lakes for the AP program. They are all in AP schools now so presumably that is the program that they want for their children.

People didn't know they "wanted" electricity or indoor plumbing until they knew what it was. Or CDs until they were available. Or iTunes or the iPhone. Or microchips until they got to play with a PC themselves. Or cell phones until their convenience was demonstrated with a cell-in-hand. Or HDTV. We have a set of "consumers" who have never seen or heard of IB until a month ago, nor seen the inside of South Lakes ever.

Imagine turning our school system over to "consumer demand." How, exactly, is demand measured? Who's the consumer, exactly? (children? Their parents? The people who end up hiring the products of the education system? Businesses who draw people to the community? Taxpayers regardless of whether they have kids or call this area their home?) What is the thing demanded? Many "consumers" of the elite ilk around here would "demand" private education so they could get all their bells and whistles. If they have the means, they have the method. The consumers can go for it.

Finally, and my main argument, why should the College Board run the entire school system? Who is IT accountable to? Why are folks so willing to foster a MONOPOLY? What is wrong with competitive rigorous programs that both do the same thing -- educate our children and prepare them for the future? Pupil-place out, then, but give it a chance first -- otherwise it's called "prejudice," or "pre-judgment."

huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Posted by: Clarifier (IP Logged)
> Date: December 10, 2007 12:01PM
>
>
> "Put some numbers to these assertions and give the
> source because the shortfall is several hundred
> kids each year. "
>
> In that case, moving two communities like Fox Mill
> and Aldrin, or Fox Mill and East Floris, or Fox
> Mill and East Crossfield, or East Crossfield and
> Alrdin, etc
>
> Clarifier- What on earth is East Crossfield?? We
> asked that split feeders not be created and
> neighborhoods be preserved, why does this thought
> even occur to you? Please respect our request as
> it has been acknowledged to this point.
>
> Also pulling from Crossfield creates an Island and
> /or causes more students to be backfilled to
> Oakton...possibly from Oak Hill or that elementary
> that butts right up again the back of Chantilly.
> Is this what you want? Don't care of the impact as
> long as you get yours? Also, there are a lot of
> trees and very few kids if I assume what East
> Crossfield consists of. Amazing!


It would make perfect sense to create an East Crossfield. You know very well that a portion of us already attend SL and there is ALREADY a split feeder at our school. No one ever mentions that. A few more neighborhoods east of West Ox Road would solve that problem and wouldn't create any additional feeders. It would just make our feeder a little bigger. Just to be fair, Floris is not a feeder school and they're trying to CREATE feeders for a school that was already moved out of Oakton. There no such East or West Floris. It would be so nice to have more Crossfield students with us at South Lakes. It would solve so many problems. This wouldn't cause any problems for Fox Mill either and there would be no islands.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>They and I do not think that the purpose of
> high school is to rack up college credits<<<
>
> Isn't that nice that money was available for your
> children to remain in college for 4 or 5 years.
> For many students, particularly our low income
> students, every college credit they can get in
> high school makes it more likely they will be able
> to afford to graduate from college. If we really
> cared about poor kids in this county, and their
> futures, we would put AP in every high school to
> help them earn college credits and get this
> elitist IB program out of their schools.

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good rant.....

For example,

"Goucher will grant credit for IB exam scores of at least 5 in higher-level subject areas. Students who earn a full IB diploma may be considered for sophomore standing."

I heard from the folks who pay the bills that SLHS 06 and 07 grads at Princeton, MIT, UVA, UMW, VaTech, JMU, UNC,.... received credit for IB classes.

>>>I will probably go to the meeting tonight, but I honestly expect to hear the usual wimpy blah blah blah about how each program is good,<<<<

The meeting is at South Lakes. FCPS LOVES IB. You should expect to hear that IB is wonderful, beyond compare, and ALL of your students will be THRILLED to be in their separate little IB classes at South Lakes.

The meeting is designed to sell you on IB and South Lakes.

West Floris Dad wrote: > It a shame you do not understnd that kids living in other part of Floris, not east part, are walkers to Floris. They not go to Coppermine. You do split Floris. No part of Floris close to South Lake.<

You may not understand that Coppermine has not been built yet -- it's just about to be. Some Floris kids will be sent there once Coppermine is built. The issue of which Floris kids will go there is one for a future debate.

>>>>in the end you go with what the consumers want<<<<

When did FCPS ever care about what the consumer wanted? They know best. They will decide what we get. Money, or desires of the community, are never paramount. They're the professionals, yada, yada, yada.

Clarifier Wrote:
>... This option fulfills South Lakes'
> need for students ...

---------
Let's go back to ground zero. WHY does South Lakes "need" additional students?

Other schools with small populations [Falls Church, Stuart, Marshall] seem happy just the way they are.

Other schools with small populations and IB [Stuart, Marshall] seem happy just the way they are.

Stuart, with a small population and IB and far more "diversity," seems happy just the way it is.

Have you called Stuart to ask what is going on there? I would be interested to read your report, something like:
Stuart does A, B, and C.
"A" will not work at South Lakes because of ___.
"B" sounds intriguing and our PTSA will look into it further.
“C” sounds wonderful and I will start working immediately to implement it at South Lakes as well.

>>>>I would argue that having strong communication skills will help them far more in life than AP credit<<<

Completion of AP credits precludes strong communication skills? I really don't see how that would happen.

>>>I also would like you to provide some numbers on how many disadvantaged students in FFX are actually racking up AP credits.<<<<

That's EXACTLY my point! They CAN'T! Most of them are stuck in IB schools!

Many of our disadvantaged Asians(among other low income students) would love to be racking up AP credits in math, science, computer science, but they can't! They're in IB schools.

foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
> ... I will
> probably go to the meeting tonight, but I honestly
> expect to hear the usual wimpy blah blah blah
> about how each program is good, etc. I feel like
> I've learned more in this forum, reading between
> the lines a little.

-------------
Despite the occasional name-calling, this forum allows far more extensive rational discussion than you will hear at any FCPS staff-led public meeting.

>>>>I loathe the pupil placement option<<<<

Why? Why shouldn't parents and students have a choice of which program they want? Which classes they want to take?

>In all likelihood, Coppermine will become Title I as soon as it opens its doors; does that change the calculation for whom it will feed?<

Coppermine will be an amalgamation of some McNair and Floris kids. I hear it is slated to go to Westfield, which is where it should go, to retain socioeconomic balance. With Floris going to South Lakes, Westfield can easily keep Coppermine and McNair in terms of numbers -- which it defacto does now.

Two Title I schools to Westfield, one might argue against. BUT if you look at overall percentages and numbers, they would not change much from where they are now. Westfield is bigger and has a third a percentage of what South Lakes has now, and half what Herndon has now -- Westfield has the overall non FRM/ESOL numbers to take them. McNair overcrowding is relieved, McNair ESOL kids go to an "English-immersion" school (Carson) and get better, and McNair/Coppermine kids benefit.

Also, there is the option of sending some McNair kids to Herndon, which by many accounts can take them without increasing FRM/ESOL numbers much.

>>>>Why are folks so willing to foster a MONOPOLY?<<<<

Only because public schools have ALWAYS enjoyed their monopoly status. But times, they are achanging. People aren't willing to put up with this monopoly and allowing the government schools to decide what education their children will receive. People have options now, private schools, parochial schools, and home schooling. They can't be forced to accept what the monopoly deigns to give them. People want CHOICE, and they will get it, one way or the other.

>>>this forum allows far more extensive rational discussion than you will hear at any FCPS staff-led public meeting.<<<<

Haven't we all learned THAT through this boundary process?

>Other schools with small populations [Falls Church, Stuart, Marshall] seem happy just the way they are.<

Sorry. Marshall not happy. Want more SL/HL courses and electives and even AP fillers. Same as us. Looking at next redistricting that affects them. Maybe will get Madison kids -- some there hope. Can't speak for happiness at the other schools. Am focused on our Bill or Fights - er, Rights - at this point in time -- South Lakes' "pursuit of happiness."

>People want CHOICE, and they will get it, one way or the other.<

Touche.

>>>Goucher will grant credit for IB exam scores of at least 5 in higher-level subject areas. Students who earn a full IB diploma may be considered for sophomore standing."<<<

That's nice but what's it got to do with what I said? Do lots of poor kids from FCPS go to Goucher? Or did you have some other point that you were making?

>>>I heard from the folks who pay the bills that SLHS 06 and 07 grads at Princeton, MIT, UVA, UMW, VaTech, JMU, UNC,.... received credit for IB classes.<<<

Yes, that's nice too. Were these poor kids who were able to go away to college? Who paid for them to do that? Or did you have some other point that relates to my post?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2007 03:33PM by Neen.

>>>Looking at next redistricting that affects them.<<<

What is the next redistricting? Can you provide us with the scheduled redistrictings?

Thank you.

BTW, Marshall took a lot of Madison kids back in the 80's. It didn't help, Marshall remained chronically under enrolled. Marshall should have been closed years ago and the property sold for many millions. NOTHING they've tried there has worked to bolster enrollment. If South Lakes remains an IB school, it is headed down the same path.

I am very glad that you are letting everyone know that there is NO chance that South Lakes will become an AP school. I would not want parents laboring under any false assumptions about South Lakes.

Thank you again.

Oh, I should have said that middle class people and upper class people will have CHOICE in the education of their children. Low income parents do not have those same options. They are stuck with whatever the public schools give them, or don't give them. What a shame.

Question: Who was it here who suggested moving the Crossfield boundary to bring in more kids? Could you discuss the numbers? I can't find numbers that show where that boundary should be drawn to ensure there are at least 500 (IMO) kids coming to SLHS to help with the numbers needed for more course options.

I have been thinking about Crossfield east of West Ox Road going to South Lakes. You won't find a lick of support for the Franklin Farm folks going from the other side of those tracks -- and an enormous and highly organized opposition.

Also, what does that do regarding domino-effect? Oakton is ok with numbers and Crossfield goes to Oakton, so who goes to Oakton to fill in, without bringing up proximity issues? (i.e., take whom from Chantilly and bus them much further than they're going now?)

I really am curious about how this might work out since that part of Crossfield is really close to South Lakes, and already several neighborhoods are going there.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have seen the enrollment numbers and the county
> has over-projected SL's numbers for the last
> several years. I don't know where they pull their
> data, but the fact is that they have
> over-projected. Perhaps they are not breaking
> down the out of pyramid students in the feeders.
> Perhaps it is due to the transient nature of
> populations from subsidized housing units.
> Perhaps it doesn't account for housing stocks and
> people moving out to move up.
>
> I hesitate to use any names on the forum, but one
> in our community who is very well-versed on the
> numbers has them in hand. I think you know who I
> mean and you should ask her to provide you a copy.

There are innumerable possible explanations. Without hard numbers, we have no way to verify any hypothesis. That person doesn't have the numbers we need to solve this riddle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2007 03:48PM by Thomas More.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Goucher will grant credit for IB exam scores of
> at least 5 in higher-level subject areas. Students
> who earn a full IB diploma may be considered for
> sophomore standing."<<<
>
> That's nice but what's it got to do with what I
> said? Do lots of poor kids from FCPS go to
> Goucher? Or did you have some other point that
> you were making?
>
> >>>I heard from the folks who pay the bills that
> SLHS 06 and 07 grads at Princeton, MIT, UVA, UMW,
> VaTech, JMU, UNC,.... received credit for IB
> classes.<<<
>
> Yes, that's nice too. Were these poor kids who
> were able to go away to college? Who paid for
> them to do that? Or did you have some other point
> that relates to my post?



Look, Neen. You said:

"For many students, particularly our low income students, every college credit they can get in high school makes it more likely they will be able to afford to graduate from college. If we really cared about poor kids in this county, and their futures, we would put AP in every high school to help them earn college credits and get this elitist IB program out of their schools."

Your point clearly implies that IB doesn't let kids earn college credit toward COLLEGE Graduation, or perhaps have you made some other point that I can't grasp......I chuckle, btw, that you are so solicitous -- suddenly -- of low income students.

If you had a different point, let me guess.....Something about the liberals and the bureaucrats not wanting people to think or act for themselves, and Stu did it, and TJ is the best and only....and SLHS stinks.

So I noted that IB kids -- some poor; some not -- earned college credit, which helps them toward COLLEGE graduation and means they don't stay four to five years, however their tuition is paid.

If those kids can and do earn COLLEGE credit in IB courses in FCPS schools, then what your point about the "elitist IB program" disadvantaging them is bullsh*&, no?

Why does college credit earned for AP coursework differ from same for IB coursework, and how does it differ for lower-income v. middle or upper income students? Your point eludes me.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> . . . wound up writing my a$$ off. I felt I was
> under-prepared for that.
>
> I made out okay, but I suspect that if I had gone
> through the IB programme I would have flourished
> in my studies.
>
> There's my $.02


Blame "whole language" for your struggles with writing not AP or the absence of IB, It was a fad in teaching reading and writing that thankfully is on the wane but there are still elements in FCPS and South Lakes.

Principal is already looking at Stuart. If you were involved in your community school you would know this.

Clarifier Wrote:
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> And, once more, South Lakers support adding AP
> courses to the IB slate. With enough students, we
> can do this. …

-------
And, once more, even huge Robinson, the largest IB school in the state if not the world, cannot support both BC Calculus and IB-HL math.

Woodson tried to have both programs, but as FCPS has repeatedly said, a school cannot have both. While AP classes peacefully co-exist with all other existing classes in a school, the IB Diploma Programme is a pervasive curriculum that affects the rest of the school.

Some people like that feature. If you want IB, great - embrace it and make it work for you. But if you want AP, do as Woodson did and eject IB.

Thomas More Wrote:

>
> There are innumerable possible explanations.
> Without hard numbers, we have no way to verify any
> hypothesis. That person doesn't have the numbers
> we need to solve this riddle.

She has the projected numbers vs. the actual numbers for enrollment. You are a great number cruncher. Get the numbers from each school, if necessary, to solve your riddle.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... I
> also would like you to provide some numbers on how
> many disadvantaged students in FFX are actually
> racking up AP credits.

---------
As I wrote a couple pages back, it is difficult to dig out current data. While it is easy to find Hispanics taking AP and IB Spanish, the current discussion seems to concern math and science. Of 2,307 Black students attending FCPS IB high schools in 02-03, only TWO Black students in the entire County passed IB High Level math and only SEVEN Black students passed an IB High Level science exam. (In the same year, of 2,685 Black students in AP schools, 64 AP math or science exams were passed by Black students.)

Of 2,968 Hispanic students attending FCPS IB high schools in 03-04, only ONE Hispanic student in the entire County passed the IB High Level math exam and only FIVE Hispanic students passed a High Level science exam. (In the same year, of 3,322 Hispanic students in AP schools, 100 AP math or science exams were passed by Hispanic students.)

Can anyone point out where to find more current data? Maybe an attendee could ask tonight that FCPS post by-course, by-school AP and IB passing data for various subgroups, just as it does for the SOLs.

My sources at the county tell me that Option 3 is the one they are going forward with.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

So your data does not tell us about the socioeconomic status of the students taking the AP or IB exams. Are there not significantly more students in AP schools? Are the IB schools not concentrated for the most part in schools with higher FRM students? How can you compare raw numbers when AP is the predominant curriculum taught in FCPS? Perhaps the hispanic and AA students taking AP are from solid middle class families with educated parents. For example, my child's college roommate is Hispanic (Engineer father, PHd mother). You can't make assumptions about the status of those students.

This Just In Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My sources at the county tell me that Option 3 is
> the one they are going forward with.

Who are your sources?

>And, once more, even huge Robinson, the largest IB school in the state if not the world, cannot support both BC Calculus and IB-HL math<

OK OK. I get it. You want your child to take BC Calculus. I get it. So -- enroll him at NOVA. Or work to get it at your school. (Oh yeah, you have enough kids there to offer it... forgot.) But we don't throw out an entire curriculum and excellent program because it's missing a piece here and there. We don't throw out AP because it doesn't include indepth study of other cultures. We don't throw it out in schools where, guess what, there aren't enough kids to offer BC Calc or multiCalc. We don't throw it out where there aren't enough kids to take AP Physics B or C. Etc. etc.

As someone said "Times are a-changin." Administration officials are ready to consider adding AP courses to IB curricula. We got mojo.

Clarifier or someone posing as such,
What purpose does it serve to pull new boundry situations into play at this point. The student numbers to the east do not exist. I encourage everyone to study the material that was handed out at the meetings, it shows where kids live within each district and shows proximity to high schools. The maps are also very helpful.

Believe it or not, Crossfield is the next closest school (after Navy) to Oakton of all the schools under consideration for movement. How about backfilling McNair to Oakton...GREAT IDEA!


Let's not split hairs to get an additional 35-65 kids to SLHS. Take the whole school or none. And remember...an outlaying culdesack does not define a split feeder. Per me, split feeders are defined as such that 20% of students do not go to the same high school ;)