These are AP credits given at UVA. Where is the lab credit here? Regular Physics? Look really closely at these and see what, exactly, kids are qualified to get credit for. You'll notice all those psych AP classes don't show up. IB offers HL in just about every area here. What's so scary about taking HL courses? Furthermore, anyone who takes IB can take the AP exams. You also get credit for the SAT IIs - which my son did. Found 'em pretty easy.

Frankly, while I think IB is better for college-bound kids, I support both programs. Both depend on the student taking advantage of their benefits. I have no real problem with AP. I DO have a problem with parents who want to toss out IB based on totally false information about it, or who seem so willing to embrace the College Board, unquestioningly, lock stock and barrel.

The bottom line is that one of the important goals of high school is to be prepared for the rigor of college. Credit is nice, but it ain't worth nuthin if you can't hack the work. Furthermore, there is an entire cadre of college professionals who are becoming more vocal and critical of COLLEGE coursework as being not about getting an education, but about getting a diploma. I detect in some anti-IB vocalists that they, too, are after diplomas, not education.

Art (Studio) 4 or 5 3 credits earned for ARTS 100
Art (2D Design) --- NO CREDIT
Art (3D Design) --- NO CREDIT
Art (History) 4 or 5 8 credits earned for ARTH 101 and ARTH 102
Biology
[No laboratory credit given] 4 or 5 6 credits earned for BIOL 201 and 202
Chemistry
[No laboratory credit given.] 4 or 5 6 credits earned for CHEM 141 and 142
Computer Science A*
5 3 credits earned for C S 101
Computer Science AB*
4 or 5 3 credits earned for C S 101
Economics (Micro) 5 3 credits earned for ECON 201
Economics (Macro) 5 3 credits earned for ECON 202
English (Language) 5 3 credits earned for ENWR 110
English (Literature) 4 or 5 3 credits earned for ENLT 249
Environmental Sciences 4 or 5 3 credits earned for EVSC 101
French Language** 3 Exemption from FREN 202
4 or 5 Exemption from FREN 202 and 3 credits earned for FREN 331
French Literature** 3 Exemption from FREN 202
4 or 5 Exemption from FREN 202 and 3 credits earned for FREN 332; placement normally in FREN 331
German (Language)*** 4 3 credits earned for GERM 201
5 6 credits earned for GERM 201 and GERM 202
Government (U.S. Govt. & Politics) 4 or 5 3 credits earned for PLAP 000T
Government (Comparative Govt. & Politics) 4 or 5 3 credits earned for PLCP 000T
History (United States) 4 or 5 8 credits earned for HIUS 201 and 202
History (European) 4 or 5 6 credits earned for HIEU 207 and 208
History (World) 4 or 5 3 credits earned for HIST 100T
Human Geography --- NO CREDIT
Latin Literature 4 or 5 Exemption from LATI 201 and 202; 3 credits for a 300-level Latin course determined by the department
Latin (Virgil) 4 or 5 Exemption from LATI 201 and 202; 3 credits for a 300-level Latin course determined by the department
Math (AB) 4 or 5 4 credits earned for MATH 131
Math (BC) 4 or 5 AB subscore 4 credits earned for MATH 131
4 or 5 8 credits earned for MATH 131 and 132
Music (Listening and Literature) 4 or 5 3 credits earned for MUSI 101
Music (Theory) 4 or 5 3 credits earned for MUSI 231
Physics B 4 or 5 8 credits earned for PHYS 201 and 202
Physics C 4 or 5 4 credits earned for PHYS 151
Physics C (Mechanics) 4 or 5 4 credits earned for PHYS 151 (College Physics Majors)
Physics C (Mechanics) 4 or 5 4 credits earned for PHYS 231 (College non-majors)
Physics C (Electricity and Magnetism) 4 or 5 8 credits earned for PHYS 231 and 232 (College non-majors)
Psychology 4 or 5 3 credits earned for PSYC 101
Spanish (Language) 4 6 credits for SPAN 201 and 202;
students may take SPAN 311
Spanish (Language) 5 6 credits for SPAN 201 and 202;
students may take SPAN 411
NOTE: NO CREDIT IS GIVEN FOR SPAN 311
Spanish (Literature) 4 or 5 6 credits for SPAN 201 and 202;
placement: a 300- or 400-level literature or culture course (NOT SPAN 330)
Statistics 4 or 5 3 credits earned for STAT 112

There is a poster on here who is slamming IB. I believe I know who you are, and you poisoned South Lakes several years ago with anti-IB rhetoric, causing many to fight it and some to leave. You sent out mailings with heinous misinformation.

Keep your split tongue in your mouth and, if you hate IB so much, pupil place out of it should you be redistricted. You tried your best to split our community -- and you FAILED! We don't want you anywhere near us.

Everyone should be aware that there is this hateful person on here with a biased beef so big it's a snack for Paul Bunyan.

You are incorrect. The poster here has never been at South Lakes, nor will he/she ever be there.

If your community was not split, why did some leave?

Lots of people at South Lakes didn't want IB. Some still don't.

You won, you got IB at South Lakes. Why do you sound so bitter?

>>>I use the spelling used by the International Baccalaureate Organization<<<<

Why?

Just wondering.

TO: ZTforIgnorance


Wow, slow down there, bro.

On the credibility scale, well, guess what, you failed.

Next time, don't use the word ignorance. Too common place among flamers, especially, those from the left.

Also, a few another key words in your post which harm your credibility are:

Heinous and Hateful

Dead giveaways.

Why don't you sleep on this and try that post again in the morning?

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These are AP credits given at UVA. Where is the
> lab credit here? Regular Physics? Look really
> closely at these and see what, exactly, kids are
> qualified to get credit for. You'll notice all
> those psych AP classes don't show up. IB offers HL
> in just about every area here. ...
>
---------
As I said in my post, I listed a simplified version of the same chart (simplified meaning easier to read on this forum) and also listed the web page so others could do as you did and look at the data themselves. I have no idea what you are trying to add to the discussion by posting, for example, "French Literature** 3 Exemption from FREN 202 4 or 5 Exemption from FREN 202 and 3 credits earned for FREN 332; placement normally in FREN 331" instead of my simplified "French Literature 4 or 5 3 credits,"

But while I don't understand how you are "clarifying" anything by copying the entire unedited UVA AP Credit list, bandwidth is cheap, and in the hope it may clarify something else, here is a present for you: the complete unedited list of UVA IB Credit as well.

"The International Baccalaureate

The College of Arts and Sciences offers possible credit for scores of 5, 6, or 7 on most higher-level IB examinations. We award no credit for standard-level examinations. Upon departmental recommendation, we will consider an award for one, and no more than two, semesters of College introductory-level credit. Scores below a 5 on the higher-level exam may be sufficient for higher-level placement (no credit will be awarded). Such advanced placement decisions must be made by the appropriate department. The College of Arts and Sciences accepts only IB scores sent directly from IB North America. Their web address is http://www.ibo.org/
Below are the pre-approved departmental equivalencies for qualifying higher-level IB examination scores:
Subject Score U.Va. Equivalents

Arabic B
5 or 6 No credit; exemption
7 300-level course to be determined by the dept.
Art/Design 5 or 6 No Credit
Art/Design 7 ARTS 100 (3 credits)
Biology 5, 6, or 7 BIOL 201 (3 credits) and BIOL 202 (3 credits)
Business and Management 6 or 7 COMM 180 (4 credits)
Chemistry 5, 6, or 7 CHEM 141 (3 credits) and CHEM 142 (3 credits)
Chinese (including Mandarin) A1, A2, B Confer with the Asian Lang. Placement Coord. for recommendation (982-3275)
Computer Science Placement test given during Fall Orientation; confer with the Office of the Dean, SEAS, (924-3164)
Economics 5, 6, or 7 ECON 201 (3 credits), ECON 202 (3 credits)
English A1 5, 6, or 7 ENLT 249 (3 credits)
English A2 --- No Credit
English B --- No Credit
French A1 or A2 5, 6, or 7 FREN 331 (3 credits)
French B 5 or 6 No credit; exemption
7 FREN 331 (3 credits)
German A1 or A2 5, 6, or 7 GERM 201 (3 credits), GERM 202 (3 credits)
German B 5 or 6 GERM 201 (3 credits)
German B 7 GERM 201 (3 credits), GERM 202 (3 credits)
Geography 5, 6, or 7 EVSC 101 (3 credits)
Greek 5, 6, or 7 GREE 202 (3 credits)
History 6 HIST 000T (3 credits)
History 7 HIST 000T (6 credits)
Italian A1 or A2 5, 6, or 7 ITAL 201 (3 credits) and ITAL 202 (3 credits)
Italian B 5, 6, 0r 7 Confer with the Italian Lang. Placement Coord. for recommendation (924-7159)
Japanese A1, A2 and B Confer with the Asian Lang. Placement Coord. for recommendation (982-3275)
Japanese B Confer with the Asian Lang. Placement Coord. for recommendation (982-3275)
Latin 5, 6, or 7 LATI 202 (3 credits)
Mathematics 5, 6, or 7 MATH 131 (4 credits) and MATH 200T (3 credits)
Music Confer with the Undergraduate Director for recommendation (924-6497)
Philosophy Confer with the Undergraduate Director for recommendation (924-7701)
Physics 5, 6, or 7 PHYS 201 (4 credits) and PHYS 202 (4 credits)
Philipino A1 5, 6, or 7 AMEL 200T (6 credits)
Portuguese A1 or A2 5, 6, or 7 PORT 111 (4 credits) and PORT 212 (4 credits)
Portuguese B 5 or 6 PORT 111 (4 credits)
7 PORT 111 (4 credits) and PORT 212 (4 credits)
Psychology 5, 6, or 7 PSYC 101 (3 credits)
Social Anthropology 5, 6, or 7 ANTH 101 (3 credits)
Spanish A1 or A2 5, 6, or 7 SPAN 201 (3 credits) and SPAN 202 (3 credits); students may enroll in SPAN 411; no credit given for SPAN 311.
Spanish B 5 or 6 3 credits for SPAN 201; students must complete SPAN 202
7 6 credits for SPAN 201 and 202 students may enroll in SPAN 311
Theater Arts Confer with the Undergraduate Director for recommendation (924-8962)
Turkish A1 5, 6, or 7 TURK 201 (3 credits) and TURK 202 (3 credits)

For higher-level examinations not listed, confer first with Dean Frank Papovich and then with the Departmental Undergraduate Director; they will review your syllabus/exam and confer regarding possible credit"

UVA also lists the credit it gives for British A Levels - I would be happy to post that list if anyone is interested. Same web site. UVA also offers possible credit for the French Baccalaureate, the German Abitur, and the Swiss Federal Maturity Certificate.

Clarifier Wrote:
> ... You'll notice all
> those psych AP classes don't show up. IB offers HL
> in just about every area here. What's so scary
> about taking HL courses? Furthermore, anyone who
> takes IB can take the AP exams. You also get
> credit for the SAT IIs - which my son did. Found
> 'em pretty easy.
>
> Frankly, while I think IB is better for
> college-bound kids, I support both programs. Both
> depend on the student taking advantage of their
> benefits. I have no real problem with AP. I DO
> have a problem with parents who want to toss out
> IB based on totally false information about it, or
> who seem so willing to embrace the College Board,
> unquestioningly, lock stock and barrel. ...
>
---------
Now that we have all those long charts out of the way we can get back to the business of "clarifying," [You have such a good name for a thread such as this.]

The chart you posted includes:
"> Psychology 4 or 5 3 credits earned for PSYC 101 "
So what did you mean when you wrote, "You'll notice all those psych AP classes don't show up"?

I have now posted twice about UVA giving credit for most IB-HL courses. I have repeatedly extolled the benefits of the IB Diploma Programme. I think our posts indicate you and I are both pretty familiar with both IB and AP, but some readers here are just learning the difference between IB HL and IB SL. For them I again point out that IB HL courses ARE "rigorous" and get college credit and all those other good things. But there are some details our fellow forum readers should know.

First detail: Even IB Diploma candidates normally take only three IB High Level courses. (Last time I checked they were prohibited from taking more than four.) In contrast, MANY students in FCPS AP high schools take more than three AP courses. A page or two back I copied some stats from Woodson, the school that got IB the same year that South Lakes did, but then rejected it. Last year 286 Woodson students scored three or above on at least three AP exams. [So you don't mistake me for someone who accepts AP "blindly" I will point out that the most competitive schools, like UVA, are looking for "4's" and "5's" on AP exams, not mere "3's." The same schools also are looking for a "5" or above on an IB exam.]

Detail Two about HL courses. They generally run two years, or a double period for one year. In contrast, AP classes can generally be completed in one year with no preparatory classes (e. g., AP US History, AP Art History, AP Psychology) A few AP courses are taken as “Capstone” senior classes (e.g., AP English, AP Chemistry, AP Calculus). Students may well wonder why they are doing two years of an IB HL course for the same college recognition (admission, placement out of introductory classes, and credit) as one year of an AP course.Example: as the above charts indicate, the two year IB HL English course is worth at most 3 credits. The many students in AP schools who take AP English Language in 11th grade and AP English Lit in 12th can earn six credits.

Detail Three: AP courses are graded as they are taken, frequently beginning in the sophomore year, so AP students can have a track record of success in college level courses to include in their college applications. In contrast, HL exams are normally taken at the end of the senior year, too late to be reflected in college applications.

None of these details may be important to you, clarifier, but they are important to a lot of other people, both parents and students. And we both want parents and students to know the pros and cons of each option, do we not?

i wonder what in the world would happen if suddenly everyone stopped visiting this forum

Forum Reader

Thank you for all of the info about IB.

I'm curious about a phenomenon at Robinson. Apparently 60 kids have dropped out of the IB diploma program this fall and now have to take freshman US History in their senior year and I understand why.

But that event must also have included the kids dropping one or more HL classes. What happens if a kids drops out of a two year HL class after the first year? Do they still get FCPS credit toward graduation for the first year of the class?

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FME Mom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well that's a nice spin... 42 were placed in
> for
> > IB Courses and three were placed as they were
> > seniors. I assume this is due to families
> moving
> > and students wanting to finish their senior
> year
> > where they spent the first three years of high
> > school. I chalk those up to positive
> adjustment
> > issues (as opposed to the others cited for
> > adjustment which generally means the students
> are
> > freaking miserable and loathe the school and
> its
> > environment) so , yes, 42 students placed into
> > South Lakes for curriculum, while 54 left for
> > curriculum. 14 were for adjustment purposes.
> The
> > rest are cited as employee or senior.
>
> Sorry, apparently I wasn't clear that was a net
> in-migration of +45, i.e. 45 more move in than
> moved out by pupil placement for academic reasons.
> That's for this year. Please adress
> anydisparities to Mr. Butler.


Oh, I was referring to the spin of Mr. Butler. Bottom line, 81 left South Lakes and 50 entered, and more left for curriculum than entered. His numbers are flawed (I'm being kind rather than calling him a freakin' liar.)

I don't know this person, or you for that matter. I do know that at an IB presentation that we attended recently that the IB coordinator stated that the IB program math and science courses were not aligned with the college math and science courses in the US. This is consistent with what I have read about the IB and AP programs.

I think that is reasonable that a wealthy school system like FCPS offer alternative curriculums, IB, academies, culinary arts. I don't think that it is reasonable that people be forced into an alternative curriculum by accident of where they live.

South Lakes is asking to split my family between two high schools. This will affect sibling relationships, and the money and time that we have to devote to two high schools. Our long-elementary school community will be split between two or three high schools. We are being asked to make sacrifices so that the advantaged kids at South Lakes will have more choices of electives and fewer chances of making the football team and cheeleader squad. (If my kids earn a passing grade in PE, we have a party, so no help on the last two.) We are being asked to come with our advantaged snobby selves to undiversify this diverse school. (Why they want us when we are so cliquely and supposedly muscle bound, I am no longer sure...)

Why can't South Lakes make one concession and drop the alternative curriculum and put back the one that is standard? Why should South Lakes advantaged parents get everything their way? You are not, as we said when I was a child, "playing right."





ZTforIgnorance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a poster on here who is slamming IB. I
> believe I know who you are, and you poisoned South
> Lakes several years ago with anti-IB rhetoric,
> causing many to fight it and some to leave. You
> sent out mailings with heinous misinformation.
>
> Keep your split tongue in your mouth and, if you
> hate IB so much, pupil place out of it should you
> be redistricted. You tried your best to split our
> community -- and you FAILED! We don't want you
> anywhere near us.
>
> Everyone should be aware that there is this
> hateful person on here with a biased beef so big
> it's a snack for Paul Bunyan.

We'd be back to videoing our pedicures for YouTube?

what if... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i wonder what in the world would happen if
> suddenly everyone stopped visiting this forum

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FME mom,
> I think the "adjustment" placements are students
> who have been expelled from one high school and
> placed in another.


Mmmm... I don't think so unless it has changed since I was in school (which is very likely.) I went to South Lakes and transferred to Oakton for "adjustment" purposes and I never got into a lick of trouble there -- I was just unhappy. Granted my mother had to drive me to a bus stop here in wonder Fox Mill Estates so I could ride the bus, but it wasn't too far out of her way as we lived near Hunters Woods.

A lot of expulsions land at Cedar Lane as a "last resort" before having to go to Pimmit Hills. However, most kids at Cedar Lane are just labeled "ED" and aren't necessarily problem kids.

WestfieldMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know this person, or you for that matter.
> I do know that at an IB presentation that we
> attended recently that the IB coordinator stated
> that the IB program math and science courses were
> not aligned with the college math and science
> courses in the US. This is consistent with what I
> have read about the IB and AP programs.
>
> I think that is reasonable that a wealthy school
> system like FCPS offer alternative curriculums,
> IB, academies, culinary arts. I don't think that
> it is reasonable that people be forced into an
> alternative curriculum by accident of where they
> live.
>
> South Lakes is asking to split my family between
> two high schools. This will affect sibling
> relationships, and the money and time that we have
> to devote to two high schools. Our
> long-elementary school community will be split
> between two or three high schools. We are being
> asked to make sacrifices so that the advantaged
> kids at South Lakes will have more choices of
> electives and fewer chances of making the football
> team and cheeleader squad. (If my kids earn a
> passing grade in PE, we have a party, so no help
> on the last two.) We are being asked to come with
> our advantaged snobby selves to undiversify this
> diverse school. (Why they want us when we are so
> cliquely and supposedly muscle bound, I am no
> longer sure...)
>
> Why can't South Lakes make one concession and drop
> the alternative curriculum and put back the one
> that is standard? Why should South Lakes
> advantaged parents get everything their way? You
> are not, as we said when I was a child, "playing
> right."

Ha ha ha! Very good points! :o)

Let's be clear. I don't want my kid going to school with black and Mexican trouble makers. Why is that so wrong?

BirdLover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> BTW, I tried not to, but I did laugh at your
> meditation humming last night.

I knew you would. See how fun we SL parents can be?

One more post, and then back to my transcendental state.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2007 10:46AM by SLVerity.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are incorrect. The poster here has never been
> at South Lakes, nor will he/she ever be there.

Then why did you ask if the poster was British, if you already knew the answer?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clarifier,
> Why aren't all of our schools teaching kids to
> write before College? They certainly should be.
>
>
> My son went to TJ, also loaded up on AP classes,
> took every AP science and math class. Went to UVA
> on a full merit scholarship, also a Rodham
> scholar. He graduated early with 3 engineering
> majors. ON the GRE exams he had a perfect score
> on math and a perfect score on writing.




Why didn't he go to MIT? No offense but UVA isn't known for its engineering program. I've never seen it rated in the top engineering schools in the country. The hard research isn't being done there nor have they recruited the top engineering minds. Certainly it does have its E school, but really, I would think he'd have been better suited to a top engineering school like MIT, Berkeley.



> Many engineers can write well. AP schools also
> train them to be able to do real math and real
> science so that they can do well in engineering
> and hard sciences.



That's so much BS and from someone who is not an engineer. Maybe that is how to get through engineering school but not how to succeed and develop in the field.


School is for training people to THINK. If you understand the mathematical problem, know the formulas, can do the calculation but DON'T understand the underlying theory, you cannot apply that to those applications that are perfectly defined. Not every problem is solved with formulas.


Also, life isn't all black and white, cut and dry. Too many engineers don't have a broader perspective, don't understand that there are other factors in problems/situations than just numbers. I am an engineer and work with many in military applications, ie weapon systems, and can tell you this is true. Why do you think that the cognitive military systems are being developed by engineers AND psychologists? The best engineers are the ones that understand that some things - like humans and their reactions - are inexplicable by hard engineering.


> My son would have hated IB and I am glad he wasn't
> stuck in an IB school.


Just curious how you know he would have hated IB and being stuck in an IB school. Would it have made him think outside of the box? That is kind of scary for concrete thinkers, I'm sure.

"Why didn't he go to MIT? No offense but UVA isn't known for its engineering program. I've never seen it rated in the top engineering schools in the country. The hard research isn't being done there nor have they recruited the top engineering minds. Certainly it does have its E school, but really, I would think he'd have been better suited to a top engineering school like MIT, Berkeley. "

If my kid were offered a full engineering scholarship to UVA, you bet he'd take it! Your later comments about engineers needing to be able to think and read would seem to support going to a good all-around school. I'm sure you know what you're talking about re. the needs of engineers, but it doesn't make sense to me to question why a student would attend a good school that offered a full scholarship. If my son did as well as Neen's, I'd be proud.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2007 01:06PM by foxmill/carson/oakton parent.

> South Lakes is asking to split my family between
> two high schools. This will affect sibling
> relationships, and the money and time that we have
> to devote to two high schools

Let me guess. You'd turn down TJ in a heartbeat?

Your kids have such a rough relationship they can't maintain siblingship between two schools? What happended when one was in elem and the other middle? One in middle and one in high? What happened to your ability to split your time then? I'm so sorry your family is struggling to stay together, but this argument doesn't wash.

The three kids have been in 3 different schools for 8 of the last 9 years. It has been difficult. We did choose the different academic program for them in elementary school, but it definitely came with a cost as to activities that the kids could participate in. This is with schools 5 and 15 minutes apart, not 40.

They were looking forward to having one year in the same school. These are not matchy-matchy perfect ivy league bound kids. One would have loved TJ if he could have gotten in. The younger didn't want to apply. These kids don't make friends easiy and rely on each other alot. I don't look for the "BEST" of anything, I am looking for the best match. FCPS looks my kids skin color and home value and typecasts them as resources for schools -- their needs don't count.







Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > South Lakes is asking to split my family between
>
> > two high schools. This will affect sibling
> > relationships, and the money and time that we
> have
> > to devote to two high schools
>
> Let me guess. You'd turn down TJ in a heartbeat?
>
> Your kids have such a rough relationship they
> can't maintain siblingship between two schools?
> What happended when one was in elem and the other
> middle? One in middle and one in high? What
> happened to your ability to split your time then?
> I'm so sorry your family is struggling to stay
> together, but this argument doesn't wash.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > South Lakes is asking to split my family between
>
> > two high schools. This will affect sibling
> > relationships, and the money and time that we
> have
> > to devote to two high schools
>
> Let me guess. You'd turn down TJ in a heartbeat?
>
> Your kids have such a rough relationship they
> can't maintain siblingship between two schools?
> What happended when one was in elem and the other
> middle? One in middle and one in high? What
> happened to your ability to split your time then?
> I'm so sorry your family is struggling to stay
> together, but this argument doesn't wash.

Your arrogance astounds me. We are tired of having South Lakes and its IB program rammed down our throats. Our family has never been so busy as we are now with just one high school student. Elementary school and middle school activities don’t even compare with the time and driving required for high school students and their families. I can’t imagine the nightmare of having two in different high schools. Having to decide which event we go to for which child, the travel time and the costs of fees (ie. Booster club, band, etc) for two different high schools will place most of us at a huge disadvantage.

All you have done is shoved 90 pages of IB is better at us. You are the most self-serving group I have every ran across. Why don’t you try to help solve the problem? Put the shoe on the other foot for a change. Hundreds and hundreds of students and their families are about to be moved to accommodate your desire for a few more math classes (that your students can take on the internet anyway).

Quit insulting us - we don’t want to go to your school anyway.

Please review the posts. The amount of slamming of South Lakes is pretty insulting and astounding, and the lack of any understanding at all for its needs, the complete NIMBYism, and I still argue the ignorance about the school and its programs is, well, there are no words do describe it.

We've frequently sympathised with your point of view, but that has rarely been returned. I've tried hard to be temperate, but I got fed up and I apologize for lowering myself to your levels. I won't do it again, if I ever return here again.

(Do I hear clapping? OK then. You can rant among yourselves without an opposing view. That will certainly get you where you want to go.)

One more question Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> All you have done is shoved 90 pages of IB is
> better at us. You are the most self-serving group
> I have every ran across.


Sorry - self serving is saying that you want to stay at Oakton, a school 12 miles away, when there is an underenrolled school 3 miles away.


>Why don’t you try to
> help solve the problem? Put the shoe on the other
> foot for a change. Hundreds and hundreds of
> students and their families are about to be moved
> to accommodate your desire for a few more math
> classes (that your students can take on the
> internet anyway).


Do your kids have to take higher level math on the internet? Do they have three levels of language in one class with one teacher? Hmm, thought not.


No one at South Lakes initiated a boundary study. The facilities staff was directed by the school board to undertake this studty as there are obvious inequities across schools.

The only reason that any one talks here about what IB offers and what SL offers is that they have been forced to. Some people like IB, some like AP, but I am sick of hearing that AP is better. IT IS NOT. The programs are equivalent. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it isn't acceptable.

The only reason SL people post here is:

1) address misconceptions about the IB program

2) address misconceptions about SL


Possibly you are not one of the posters who has said that South Lakes is a failing school full of gangs and slackers and that we as parents are responsible and negligent that we live in the greater Reston area. However, that has been the implication and the direct accusations by many adults on this board.

We just want our children to get the same benefits that you do - we are all taxpayers.

I am sorry if your children may be moved to different schools. I'm sure that will be difficult to manage. Maybe a sibling grandfathering policy, or a lenient pupil placement policy will be in effect in the implementation. I would advocate for that as I'm sure other parents, both SL and non-SL, would as well.

Clarifier Wrote:
> Your kids have such a rough relationship they
> can't maintain siblingship between two schools?
> What happended when one was in elem and the other
> middle? One in middle and one in high? What
> happened to your ability to split your time then?
> I'm so sorry your family is struggling to stay
> together, but this argument doesn't wash.

----------------------------------------------
[Later message]
> ... The amount of slamming of
> South Lakes is pretty insulting and astounding,
> and the lack of any understanding at all for its
> needs, the complete NIMBYism, and I still argue
> the ignorance about the school and its programs
> is, well, there are no words do describe it.
>
> We've frequently sympathised with your point of
> view, but that has rarely been returned. I've
> tried hard to be temperate, but I got fed up and I
> apologize for lowering myself to your levels. I
> won't do it again, if I ever return here again. ...

---------
Clarifier, I am sure you know the School Board tries to limit the number of boundary changes for any particular area and that keeping siblings together is an accepted reason for pupil placement.

We know you can write logical, fact-based arguments and I appreciate your commitment not to venture off into personal attacks. [Your earlier response was so unlike you that I ignored it - I thought someone was misusing your name.]

Let me try to explain the blowback you are receiving with an analogy that is not meant to be insulting. The South Lakes "family" has a pretty and spacious and newly renovated house and a new step-dad whom everyone loves, but it admits it has "issues." Healthy extended families care about each other, and much advice has been offered to help the "struggling" [to use your word] sister school of South Lakes. "She" might add a magnet program, or get rid of the IB programme, or emulate Stuart's success with IB. However, "she" seems to be rather arbitrarily rejecting all advice. Instead, "she" is choosing to make her problems everybody's business by trying to adopt additional children from other families who are happy where they are. It is just unfortunate that factors of "affluence" and "diversity" have come into play.

I hope we can continue our discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of the curriculum in both FCPS IB and AP schools and thereby reduce "ignorance about the school and its programs."

foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> If my kid were offered a full engineering
> scholarship to UVA, you bet he'd take it! Your
> later comments about engineers needing to be able
> to think and read would seem to support going to a
> good all-around school. I'm sure you know what
> you're talking about re. the needs of engineers,
> but it doesn't make sense to me to question why a
> student would attend a good school that offered a
> full scholarship. If my son did as well as Neen's,
> I'd be proud.



Glad that you think UVA is an exceptional engineering school worth the exceptional student. If my student were that exceptional, I would go for the gold - sorry, but in engineering, that is not UVA.


The point is broader about Neen. Need has said before in posts that TJ and UVA are the only schools in THE WHOLE STATE worth anything. I disagree but she is obviously blinded to only what she knows. We call these people - close-minded.


Even further, as an engineer, I believe that IB can train students for higher education in engineering, science, math, humanities, whatever. I know that you don't have to go to TJ to become an engineer or mathematician. They don't have AP in Europe and elsewhere and are managing to produce engineers, scientists, mathematicians.


Stop saying IB is not appropriate for scientific types. Get Neen to use her intelligence for the better good rather than for nastiness or self-serving remarks and I'll stop refuting her.

One More Question

As a parent of multiple high school children, even when they were both at one high school, there are multiple occasions when there are conflicting demands on our physical presence, e.g. one has a home game, the other away. Certainly being at two high schools only makes it worse.

A humane school board would allow for grandfathering of siblings. Is FCPS humane, not in my 20 years experience, anything but. It is an overly large bureaucracy principally concerned with taking care of its staff (14,000 fte non-instructional personnel?).

If your child is not among the top 10% academically or the bottom 20% either academically or behaviorally, your kid is part of a warehouse inventory to be spun, folded and manipulated to the various invidious purposes of the administrators and staff. There are exceptions certainly. But never forget they are exceptions. Cherish them and protect your kid from the rest of them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2007 03:34PM by Thomas More.

Interesting article of interest to this group at www.examiner.com/blogs/Sharp_Sticks/2007/12/7/Fairfax-School-Boards-bullying-problem

http://www.examiner.com/blogs/Sharp_Sticks/2007/12/7/Fairfax-School-Boards-bullying-problem

If one of the arguments that SLHS parents, as well as the SB, use to promote re-districting is "Parity in Programming" then the ONLY option is to make SLHS an AP school. Parity means the same, or equal, not "same but different" which is what I see is essentially the distinction between IB and AP. Grandfather out the IB program as you move new kids in with the AP program.

Also - a question to those who know about IB. What happens when kids come in mid-high school career (for whatever reason, family moves, "adjustment" etc...) are those kids able to take advantage of the IB classes? What about the diploma? It seems that AP really lends itself to true "diversity" much better than the IB program, which really appears to be much more elitist and exclusive.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One More Question
>
> As a parent of multiple high school children, even
> when they were both at one high school, there are
> multiple occasions when there are conflicting
> demands on our physical presence, e.g. one has a
> home game, the other away. Certainly being at two
> high schools only makes it worse.
>
> A humane school board would allow for
> grandfathering of siblings. Is FCPS humane, not
> in my 20 years experience, anything but. It is an
> overly large bureaucracy principally concerned
> with taking care of its staff (14,000 fte
> non-instructional personnel?).
>
> If your child is not among the top 10%
> academically or the bottom 20% either academically
> or behaviorally, your kid is part of a warehouse
> inventory to be spun, folded and manipulated to
> the various invidious purposes of the
> administrators and staff. There are exceptions
> certainly. But never forget they are exceptions.
> Cherish them and protect your kid from the rest of
> them.


Cheris them I do. My outburst should have been directed at the school board and not the families of South Lakes. Clarifier don't leave - even you have to understand the anguish this is causing too many families in Fairfax County.

The same Stu Gibson, who in the first public meeting in Chantilly High, refused to answer questions posed to him by the public who he supposedly represents, now has been found guilty of voilating the privacy laws as a school board member.

www.fairfaxtimes.com/news/2007/dec/04/school-board-battle-rages/

http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/news/2007/dec/04/school-board-battle-rages/

He should resign from the School Board. He cannot be trusted with this redistricting process.

Old Timer

I've read a lot of information posted by the IB proponents and am re-enforced in my belief that, so long as AP and IB are treated by FCPS as fundamentally, mutually exclusive, it's still clear that AP is a far better program for the majority of SL kids and they would be far better off if IB were phased out and AP returned.

The amount of work require for college credit, (two year HL course) with test results not available until the end of July after graduation means that IB HL test results cannot be considered during the application/acceptance process (unlike AP classes taken in junior year) and cannot be considered during the placement/course registration at colleges that do the registration/course selection process in June and early July as more and more colleges are doing, is disproportionate to the limited reward.

Of great concern to me about IB is that diploma recipients do not have to take a year of US History. That's why the 60 kids who dropped out of the IB diploma program at Robinson after their junior year are now taking freshman US history in their senior year.

American public schools are supposed to prepare American kids to become American citizens. How does that happen when US history is a bit part of a course in the history of north and south america!

The information available leads to the conclusion that IB is another of the failed fads that FCPS is prone to be suckers for along with "whole language" and "every day math". It's as if every textbook company in the country knows what an easy mark the saps at FCPS are and bring every untried and untest idea to be inflicted on FFX students to their detriment.

IB was imposed on South Lakes involuntarily. Hopefully, the first order of business after the redistricting is revisiting the IB/AP issue with full disclosure of the most accurate information to the parents of all elementary schools feeding SL at back to school night next fall followed by a plebicite of those parents.

Of course, that's unlikely to happen.



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2007 06:59PM by Thomas More.

Clarifier Wrote:

> Your kids have such a rough relationship they
> can't maintain siblingship between two schools?
> What happended when one was in elem and the other
> middle? One in middle and one in high? What
> happened to your ability to split your time then?
> I'm so sorry your family is struggling to stay
> together, but this argument doesn't wash.

Nope, this argument does wash. You do not experience this family's life, so you have ABSOLUTELY NO AUTHORITY to comment on what other families should do, expect, etc.

You people from South Lakes who have demanded (without asking first - yet another horrible example to our children), and expect folks to make significant changes in their lives are demonstrating arrogance, selfishness and impatience.

How can any you deny, given the plethora of information here and elsewhere, that you are seeking significant disruption in many people's lives?

You cannot; and everyone of you simply fall back on the mantra "oh, this concern of theirs is overblown" - which is merely opinion.

Dear Parents,

1. I have many friends who graduated with an IB certificate (not diploma) who went on to major in engineering at VT and UVA, they are doing just fine (it is our junior year).

2. I also graduated with an IB Certificate (not diploma, I mention this so that you know we are bright, but not geniuses) and was able to get into one of the top two schools in VA without a 4.0 and 1600 on the SATs. Your children, I'm sure, can do the same.

3. As the daughter of upper-middle class, white, Republican (until GWB) parents who were just as apprehensive as you are when it came to sending their children to South Lakes, I can say that there is nothing at the school that will negatively effect your child's education.

4. My parent's friends send their kids to Landon, Holten Arms, Prep, and Bullis. I got into a college ranked higher than most of their kids with only medium effort. Taking IB classes for the certificate, rather than the diploma, was not any harder than taking AP classes would have been. It is the diploma that is the hard work. The IB program, although I hated it at the time, was truely a blessing in disguise. I can pop out 10 page papers in a matter of hours, whereas most of my peers at school cannot. I credit my writing abilities to my South Lakes education.

5. While most friends I have met at school view their college friends as their truest and longest lasting, I still view my high school friends as such. Most everyone who was in my respective group of friends, in all the grade levels I associate with (01-06), feels the same way. We have yet to find people as genuine as the ones we met at South Lakes. It was the diverse and accepting atmosphere of the school that created this bond.

6. The most "ghetto" thing that happened to me at South Lakes is that I now consider hip-hop my favorite genre of music. I never felt threatened by violence in any way.

I absolutely understand that you and your children do not want to leave your current school and your current surroundings. Fight this if you feel that is what needs to be done. But if you do end up being redistricted to South Lakes, go into it with an open mind. Know that their are families just like yours who were apprehensive about going there, but came out of the school considering it one of the best decisions they could have ever made.

sea-HAWWWKs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I absolutely understand that you and your children
> do not want to leave your current school and your
> current surroundings. Fight this if you feel that
> is what needs to be done. But if you do end up
> being redistricted to South Lakes, go into it with
> an open mind. Know that their are families just
> like yours who were apprehensive about going
> there, but came out of the school considering it
> one of the best decisions they could have ever
> made.

Beautiful, someone with some sense.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You people from South Lakes who have demanded
> (without asking first - yet another horrible
> example to our children), and expect folks to make
> significant changes in their lives are
> demonstrating arrogance, selfishness and
> impatience.

Please Berhuis, don't blame us. The County School Board initiated this study. If we were not advocating for a good result for our school, you would all be contemptuous of us and wondering why we did not fight for our school. Let's keep this on a civilized level. We have tried very hard to, despite some pretty insulting prior posts, and in that way I think we have been wonderful examples for our children.

SLVerity Wrote:

> Please Berhuis, don't blame us. The County School
> Board initiated this study. If we were not
> advocating for a good result for our school, you
> would all be contemptuous of us and wondering why
> we did not fight for our school.

I can say that I admire you for caring so much about South Lakes. I also care for South Lakes, and wonder sometimes how nice it would have been had we successfully remained adjacent to the school.

But my problem lies not with the school; it is a fine school and might wind up being where my youngest children go in a few years. I would be happy with this.

My problem, along with many of us, is the process by which a problem and solution were determined, including subsequent action, concerning South Lakes and some of its adjacent high schools. I sense that it would be wise to start all over on this matter.

I'm coming to the IB meeting on Dec. 10 (is that the correct date?); I'd like to learn more.

That's good. The announcement I saw said it is an AP/IB meeting, so you will probably learn about both, and it is on Monday, Dec. 10th.

South Lakes is an amazing school. It's wonderful, and I have learned so much in my years attending. All this bullshit about the test scores, the diversity, is so incredibly stupid. Diversity is an amazing thing, learning and experiencing about many different cultures is great. It has opened my eyes to many things. The fact that SL will accept anyone shows that they are a caring and exceptional school. We help people, and care about everyone, we don't look at skin color, religion or anything like that. The people at SL are all children. You idiots who are shallow enough to see these other things, are selfish and racist. Every school has gang violence, every school has drug and alcohol problems. SL is no exception to that, and niether are Oakton, Herndon, Chantilly, Westfield, or any other high schools! So do not label us as a "ghetto" or "gang" school. Because you have no facts to prove it. I have visited other school, and all I see are clicks, EVERYWHERE. All those schools seem very unconnected and divided. South Lakes has hardly any clicks, we all are nice to eachother, even if you are a "nerd", or if you are "cool." It doesn't matter to us. You also have no right to judge anyone at SL, so you should stop making racist and stupid assumptions. SL does have less people (and if it were up to me, I wouldn't want your racist clicky children at our school either) but i'm willing to accept anyone because that is what i've learned in my years at SL. I don't know if we have lower test scores, but I highly doubt that they are THAT much lower, and you have to understand that our school IS smaller, so we don't have as many people to average the scores out. But I know that our school is SO intelligent. So everyone needs to stop being close minded, because i am telling you, as a SL student, that I have heard of only a small ammount of fights, i've never heard of ANY gangs (i know that doesn't mean there aren't any.) many of my friends are of another culture and i love them all, we have wonderful teachers, and kids here, and you should also think about how hard the IB program is compare the AP. We work our butts off at SL. I love this school, and your kids will too.

You say toMAHto, I say toMAYto,
Let's call the whole thing off!

SLislove Wrote:
(and if it were up to me, I wouldn't want your racist clicky children at our school either)

i also said that I would accept your kids no matter what, dont twist my words around

I really think that they should close South Lakes. We have excess high school capacity in the county.

No one outside the South Lakes community wants to go there.

The people who have kids there say that the educational opportunities are inadequate.

No One is happy with the place. Close it down. Send the poor children to the good high schools. Send the rich children to Langley.

Well i'm glad you think they should close SL down, but many people don't.
And if you want the rich people away from the poor people, does that mean you want the white people away from the black people, or the people who practice Judaism away from the people who practice Islam? Why don't we just split up everyone? And the people who don't want to go to SL, good for you, go to other school then. We really don't care.

Listen, South Lakes is complaining about Title 1 schools. South Lakes can talk about nothing but diversity as if the rest of the county is not diverse.

Over and over again they brag about sending kids to ivy league schools. Let the ivy leaguers go to Langley and everyone else can go to the other high schools. Come out of your Reston bubble and visit McNair, the hot potato school that South Lakes doesn't want, that Herndon doesn't want, that goes to Westfield.

South Lakes is demanding "advantaged kids" and 5 high schools are to be disrupted to fill up South Lakes. Go to the fcps web site, check out school profiles, see what the demographics are.

SLislove Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well i'm glad you think they should close SL down,
> but many people don't.
> And if you want the rich people away from the poor
> people, does that mean you want the white people
> away from the black people, or the people who
> practice Judaism away from the people who practice
> Islam? Why don't we just split up everyone? And
> the people who don't want to go to SL, good for
> you, go to other school then. We really don't
> care.

hahaha alright, South Lakes is amazing, the kids, the teachers, Mr. Butler, everything about it. So many people judge and label our school. But let me tell you something, you have never attended SL, so you will never understand, dont act like you know everything there is to know.
And our school is probably the most diverse schools, and when people go to the redistricting saying that diversity in our school is the problem? that is why we keep bringing it up. What if I told you we should shut down your school and send all your kids to our school. You would think that was bullshit too.

Post certainly got the headline right.

Hey, did Westfield win all the marbles today?

FME Mom,
Before a student is sent to Pimmit they are first allowed to go to another high school, after their first expulsion. If those students aren't 'adjustment' students, I wonder where they are in these statistics? Kids expelled from Madison usually go to Marshall or Oakton. Those expelled from Herndon generally go to South Lakes. Expelled Oakton kids get sent to Madison or South Lakes. Basically expelled kids are passed from one high school to another, until they have more than one or two expulsions then they got to Tysons Pimmit or Mountain View. After than it's the computer program or home schooling, provided by FCPS.

Your arrogance astounds me. We are tired of having South Lakes and its >>>>IB program rammed down our throats. Our family has never been so busy as we are now with just one high school student. Elementary school and middle school activities don’t even compare with the time and driving required for high school students and their families. I can’t imagine the nightmare of having two in different high schools. Having to decide which event we go to for which child, the travel time and the costs of fees (ie. Booster club, band, etc) for two different high schools will place most of us at a huge disadvantage.

All you have done is shoved 90 pages of IB is better at us. You are the most self-serving group I have every ran across. Why don’t you try to help solve the problem? Put the shoe on the other foot for a change. Hundreds and hundreds of students and their families are about to be moved to accommodate your desire for a few more math classes (that your students can take on the internet anyway).

Quit insulting us - we don’t want to go to your school anyway.<<<<

Clarifer has been nothing but insulting, nasty, and rude. Surely she doesn't think this will convince anyone to send their child to South Lakes with Mothers like her there. I am sure there are many nice parents at South Lakes and that she and SLVerity are aberrations but they certainly are not helping their cause.

GEt it right said:
>>>>Need has said before in posts that TJ and UVA are the only schools in THE WHOLE STATE worth anything.<<<<

When did I EVER say that? Never. Please stop lying about my posts.

Thank you.

>>>They don't have AP in Europe and elsewhere and are managing to produce engineers, scientists, mathematicians.<<<<

You may well be right and IB is quite good for kids who want to be enginners, scientists and Mathematicians in Europe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2007 05:31PM by Neen.

>>>it's still clear that AP is a far better program for the majority of SL kids and they would be far better off if IB were phased out and AP returned.<<<

Unless South Lakes begins this transition, quickly, beginning in 2008/2009, the school will never get the population up. Parents from AP schools like AP and the majority of them are not going to send their children to an IB school. They simply won't. The BEST thing the school board could do is promised to make South Lakes an AP school. Without that, South Lakes will never climb out of their hole.

SLislove,
The ONLY people who bring up 'diversity' are from South Lakes. You all talk about it endlessly. The rest of us are sick of hearing about it. It's YOUR focus, not anyone else's.

>>>>one of the arguments that SLHS parents, as well as the SB, use to promote re-districting is "Parity in Programming" then the ONLY option is to make SLHS an AP school. Parity means the same, or equal, not "same but different" which is what I see is essentially the distinction between IB and AP. Grandfather out the IB program as you move new kids in with the AP program.<<<

Yup. That is the ONLY thing that will work. But South Lakes parents will never allow that. They love their IB program almost as much as their 'diversity'. Those are the ONLY things that talk about.

Oh, yeh, and how they don't want McNair.

YaYaMaMa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Come out of your Reston bubble and visit
> McNair, the hot potato school that South Lakes
> doesn't want, that Herndon doesn't want, that goes
> to Westfield.

I'm from McNair, and send children there. I've made many observations on the place over the past several years, and would like your take on the place.

Just curious, as there's much misunderstanding about it.

Thanks

McNair includes a very high needs population with alot of turnover. There are a large number of ESOL kids. I have a friend whose child was the only student left in her classroom during a certain time of day because all of classmates were pulled out for their language instruction.

I have heard from teachers, parents, and administrators that they do not have at all the same level of volunteerism as Floris. One year they were trying to do a Fun Fair event and it had to be cancelled because they did not have the vounteers.

I know kids that have taken advantage of the option to transfer because of the AYP. I know kids who love it there.

My point is that McNair has the same population that South Lakes claims to be so solictious of. These kids go to Westfield and are part of that community. I know a 9th grader that moved to the area over the summer and is having a very good year at Westfield. It would not be to his advantage at all to change schools at this point or for his siblings not to be able to follow his path.

They are so busy saying that all of Westfield is so affluent, but they are not looking at McNair or thinking about those kids.



Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> YaYaMaMa Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Come out of your Reston bubble and visit
> > McNair, the hot potato school that South Lakes
> > doesn't want, that Herndon doesn't want, that
> goes
> > to Westfield.
>
> I'm from McNair, and send children there. I've
> made many observations on the place over the past
> several years, and would like your take on the
> place.
>
> Just curious, as there's much misunderstanding
> about it.
>
> Thanks

Old Timer Wrote:
>
> ... Do your kids have to take higher level math on the
> internet? Do they have three levels of language
> in one class with one teacher? Hmm, thought not.
>
> ... The only reason that any one talks here about what
> IB offers and what SL offers is that they have
> been forced to. Some people like IB, some like
> AP, but I am sick of hearing that AP is better.
> IT IS NOT. The programs are equivalent. Just
> because you don't understand something, doesn't
> mean it isn't acceptable. ...
>
> We just want our children to get the same benefits
> that you do - we are all taxpayers. ...
>
---------------
To answer your first question, yes, some students in both IB and AP schools DO take math courses online. [Perhaps you need to understand what goes on in the rest of FCPS schools as well as you expect us to understand what goes on in yours.]

To respond to your second question, IB Diploma candidates MUST be given the courses required in their programme, even if only a handful of students sign up for them. When resources are limited (as they are in EVERY FCPS school) the remaining classes are subject to elimination, overcrowding, or “three levels of language in one class with one teacher.” If you don’t like the impacts of the Diploma Programme, then get of IB.

If you want the same curriculum benefits as in AP schools, then get rid of IB.

And if you truly believe that IB and AP are equal, then get rid of IB - because it costs more.

“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell” [Harry S Truman].

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, did Westfield win all the marbles today?

Yes.

I went. A great game (though it's too bad the championship game wasn't against Oscar Smith. They deserved to be there.)

On the issue at hand - Why did I go? Community. Our friends go, though they don't have kids on the team. My son's in the Westfield band and was in the pep band at the game. My Floris Elementary daughter wanted to go. She's been going to the Westfield games since her brother started in the band.

Sure, when we moved here, our high school community would have been Oakton, but we got redistricted when Westfield was built. Sure, if the ever wonderful staff hadn't totally screwed the Westfield projections 10 years ago, we might have been redistricted to South Lakes or we might have gotten the "West County" (read "Oak Hill") High School that's been in the CIP for years, but we didn't. We got Westfield. We made it our community. We want it to remain our community.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
IB Diploma
> candidates MUST be given the courses required in
> their programme, even if only a handful of
> students sign up for them. When resources are
> limited (as they are in EVERY FCPS school) the
> remaining classes are subject to elimination,
> overcrowding, or “three levels of language in one
> class with one teacher.”...

That IMHO is precisely WHY when FCPS initially instituted special academic programs they were not intended to be in so many schools - board members lobbied for more based on magisterial districts. How many students in each grade are in Japenese Immersion at all schools? Fox Mill and Floris are neighbors.

How many in each higher level IB class at each school? These are apparently top secret FCPS class size numbers that are the result of PROGRAM DEMANDS not pupil teacher staffing ratios. The old GT centers were done by pupil teacher staffing ratios - example - 59 kids in a grade at a GT center there were 2 classes. If there were 36 in one grade and 45 in another they did flexible grouping or "splits" with grade level combo classes.

That drain on teachers based on programs can happen at large schools also.

YaYaMaMa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McNair includes a very high needs population with
> alot of turnover. There are a large number of
> ESOL kids. I have a friend whose child was the
> only student left in her classroom during a
> certain time of day because all of classmates were
> pulled out for their language instruction.

> My point is that McNair has the same population
> that South Lakes claims to be so solictious of.

Do you think that if South Lakes were to accept the McNair ES district, that it would be consistent with their desire for diversity?

taxpayer Wrote:
> ... How many in each higher level IB class at each
> school? These are apparently top secret FCPS
> class size numbers that are the result of PROGRAM
> DEMANDS not pupil teacher staffing ratios. The
> old GT centers were done by pupil teacher staffing
> ratios - example - 59 kids in a grade at a GT
> center there were 2 classes. If there were 36 in
> one grade and 45 in another they did flexible
> grouping or "splits" with grade level combo
> classes.
>
> That drain on teachers based on programs can
> happen at large schools also.

-----
It is not a program issue but rather a matter of overall resources. If South Lakes wants “equity” they will have to INcrease their class sizes.

I avoid using data not readily available, but a member of the Gifted Talented Advisory Committee gave me a copy of 04-05 “super-secret” FCPS data on IB and AP class sizes. That year South Lakes had 30 or more students in sections of three IB courses: Bio I, Chem I, and History of the Americas.

That same year these were the AP courses with 30 or more students assigned to at least one section at the AP schools being discussed.

Chantilly
AP Calculus AB four sections 27 - 29 - 29 - 30
AP Biology two sections 29 - 30
AP Government six sections 29 - 31 - 31 - 32 - 32 - 33

Herndon
AP Government seven sections 12 - 16 – 21- 25 - 26 - 28 - 30

Oakton
AP US History seven sections ranging from 24 to one section of 31

Westfield
AP Calculus AB five sections 28 - 29 - 29 - 30 - 30
AP Government nine sections ranging from 26 to one with 30
AP US History eight sections 26 - 26 - 28 - 28 - 29 - 30 - 30 - 30
AP World History seven sections ranging from 23 to one with 30

Notice the huge numbers of students taking AP courses, and I have only listed the courses with large individual sections. Clearly AP is not an elitist program in FCPS but rather is accessible to the majority of students.

YaYaMaMa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes is demanding "advantaged kids" and 5
> high schools are to be disrupted to fill up South
> Lakes.

No, as far as I recall only Maria Allen used that regrettable and unfortunate language and she was speaking for herself and not for the South Lakes community or for SL PTA. Hopefully, she'll be more careful with her wording in the future and more careful to let the press and public know when she's speaking personally and when she is speaking in her official PTSA capacity.

> Go to the fcps web site, check out school
> profiles, see what the demographics are.

And when you do, you'll see that the County average for FRL is 20% and that SL's share of that burden is 33%.

It's unfair to all SL students that their teachers have to bear the burden of meeting the heighten needs of, and attention to, the educationally challenged FRL population to an extent not demanded by the substantially lower FRL population at Oakton, Chantilly, or Westfield.

There are only two ways to lower SL's FRL burden: add more kids who aren't FRL or shift FRL kids away from SL. Given the FRL numbers at Dogwood and Terraset and those schools' proximity to SL, reducing the number of FRL at South Lakes is not practical.

Adding McNair to South Lakes would do nothing to lower the percentage of FRL at SL and perpetuates the disproportionate burden bore by SL.

On the other hand adding McNair or Coppermine to Herndon, even after removing Aldrin and Armstrong as in Option 4, still leaves Herndon's FRL below County average.

Unfortunately, there appears no reasonable way to raise the FRL at Oakton, Westfield or Chantilly.

Had Ms Straus, contrary to good Democratic Party principals, not insisted on insulating Langley from this process, Forestville could have been traded for Forest Edge and Langley's shamefully low FRL (1%) could have been raised but Ms. Straus and Mr. Gibson made other choices. "Limosine liberals" indeed.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> > ... How many in each higher level IB class at
> each
> > school? ...


That year South Lakes
> had 30 or more students in sections of three IB
> courses: Bio I, Chem I, and History of the
> Americas.
>
> That same year these were the AP courses with 30
> or more students assigned to at least one section
> at the AP schools being discussed.
>
> Chantilly
> AP Calculus AB four sections 27 - 29 - 29 - 30
> AP Biology two sections 29 - 30
> AP Government six sections 29 - 31 - 31 - 32 - 32
> - 33
>
> Herndon
> AP Government seven sections 12 - 16 – 21- 25 - 26
> - 28 - 30
>
> Oakton
> AP US History seven sections ranging from 24 to
> one section of 31
>
> Westfield
> AP Calculus AB five sections 28 - 29 - 29 - 30 -
> 30
> AP Government nine sections ranging from 26 to one
> with 30
> AP US History eight sections 26 - 26 - 28 - 28 -
> 29 - 30 - 30 - 30
> AP World History seven sections ranging from 23 to
> one with 30...

12 to 30? 24 to 31?
They are big jumps for the same course/school. How many in higher level IB? This is the first time I've ever seen these numbers henceforth the "supersecret."
What can be done about this? Maybe reduce the numbers of electives that drive scheduling. How many in higher level IB per class/school?

Wow - it astounds me that these numbers never hit the internet. Why aren't they published annually as part of the GTAC report?

Forum Reader

Do IB diploma kids get out of taking the senior year of US/Va government also, or is it just US history?

IB Diploma students take Government their sophomore year, History of the Americas (up to the civil war) junior year and 20th Century Topics (which continues US history though modern times) senior year. The class IB students do not take is World History I. They start freshman year with pre-IB World History II. They do not miss out on American History or Government.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 12 to 30? 24 to 31?
> They are big jumps for the same course/school.
> How many in higher level IB? This is the first
> time I've ever seen these numbers henceforth the
> "supersecret."
> What can be done about this? Maybe reduce the
> numbers of electives that drive scheduling. How
> many in higher level IB per class/school?
>
> Wow - it astounds me that these numbers never hit
> the internet. Why aren't they published annually
> as part of the GTAC report?

---------
The number of students per section will vary because of the master schedule. Example: If Concert Choir is first period, then obviously none of those singers can shift into an "under-enrolled" section of an AP course at that time.

I can print all the numbers for every pre-IB, IB-SL, IB-HL, Honors, and AP course in every FCPS high school for the 04-05 school year, but please confirm that you want them. We are talking about a LOT of (old) data; copying errors are inevitable.

I suggest instead that at tomorrow night's IB/AP meeting at South Lakes that the parents demand these data for the CURRENT year be posted on the FCPS web site.

In the meantime, in response to your specific question on the class size in IB-HL courses across the county in 04-05. {Some of these classes are two year SL courses but FCPS does not always clearly differentiate between HL and SL.}:

Annandale
EngI 18 20 21 21 23
EngII 17 17 18
TheArtII 26
Fr I 13
Fr II 9
LatII 13 18
SpA2 I 26
SpA2 II 23
SpI 21
SpII 19
MathHLI 10 18
MathHII 22
MusI 17
VisArtHLII 13
BioII 10 21
ChemII 14
PhysI 18 26
PhysII 25
HistIITops 13 17 23
HistIHOA 21 23 26 26

Edison
EngI 14 17 17 18 18 19 20 22 26
EngII 10 14 14 16 22 26 27
TheArtII 15
Fr I 15
Fr II 15
LatI 20
LatII 11
SpA2 I 12
SpI 25 25
SpII 23
MathHLI 15
VisArtHLII 8 16
BioI 31
BioII 31
ChemI 21 21 24 27
ChemII 20
PhysI 20 24
PhysII 18
HistIITops 12 23 24 26
HistIHOA 22 23 24 26 27 27

Lee
EngI 19 24 24 25
EngII 19 19 20 21 21
TheArtI
Fr I 29
Fr II 13
GerI 19
SpA2 I 31
SpI 22 26 29
SpII 14 25
MathHLI 22
MathHII 20
Bus&MgI 19
MusI 11
BioI 24 27 27
BioII 26
ChemI 23 29 28 29 29
ChemII 22 24 24
PhysI 18 23 25
PhysII 15
HistIITops 15 21 22 25 26
HistIHOA 20 23 24 26 27 28

Marshall
EngI 18 19 23 24 25
EngII 21 25 25 26
Fr I 26
Fr II 22
SpA2 II 27
SpI 25 26
SpII 18 21
MathHII 17
Bus&MgI 16 24 26
Bus&MgII 28
MusI 23
BioI 26 28
BioII 10 19
ChemI 24 26 26 28 28 28
ChemII 19 25
PhysI 20 23 24 25
PhysII 22 23 24
HistIITops 16 20 23 26 28
HistIHOA 22 23 23 24 26

Mt Vernon
EngI 21 22 23 24 25 25
EngII 18 20 22 23 24
TheArtI 12
Fr I 17
Fr II 12
GerII 13
SpA2 I 21
SpI 21 27
SpII 18 19
MathHLI 9
MathHII 9
Bus&MgI 18 26
MusI 7
BioI 17 24
BioII 17
ChemI 14
ChemII 13
PhysI 21 25 26
PhysII 24 26
HistIITops 23 25 26 29
HistIHOA 20 22 22 25 26


Robinson
EngI 23 23 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 32 25 25
EngII 21 21 21 21 22 23 23 23 24
TheArtII 19
Fr I 22 25
Fr II 17 19
GerI 21
GerII 20
LatI 16
SpI 21 25 25 27 28
SpII 20 21 23 26
MathHLI 19
MathHII 17
Bus&MgI 25 26 27 28
MusI 18
BioI 16
BioII 12 23
ChemI 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28
ChemII 19 26
PhysI 27 29 29 29 29 30
PhysII 20 30 30
HistIITops 19 19 20 21 23 25 26 28
HistIHOA 25 26 26 26 27 28 28 28

South Lakes
EngI 26 28 28
EngII 14 27 28
TheArtI 13
Fr I 29
Fr II 13
GerII 17
SpI 22 25
SpII 23
MathHLI 6
MusI 9
MusII 16
VisArtHLII 24
VisArtHLI 18 22
BioI 29 30 31
BioII 23
ChemI 29 30 30 30
ChemII 21
PhysI 29 29
HistIITops 19 26 28
HistIHOA 29 29 30

Stuart
EngI 12 17 27
EngII 12 21 23
TheArtII 6
Fr I 28
Fr II 22
SpI 14 15 19
SpII 11 18 19 24
MathHLI 8
Bus&MgI 25 26
Bus&MgII 9
MusI 11
BioI 19
BioII 20
PhysI 20 21
PhysII 9 17
HistIITops 16 26 29
HistIHOA 14 17 24

sadkfjl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IB Diploma students take Government their
> sophomore year, History of the Americas (up to the
> civil war) junior year and 20th Century Topics
> (which continues US history though modern times)
> senior year. The class IB students do not take is
> World History I. They start freshman year with
> pre-IB World History II. They do not miss out on
> American History or Government.

Thanks for the answer. Is it US government? Or comparative government?

History of the Americas cannot possibly cover as much US material as US History, even accounting for the shorter time period covered. Time has to be devoted to non-US history and taken away from US history. Twentieth Century Topics is again not specific to the US.

If it were true there wouldn't be 60 seniors at Robinson taking freshman US History now.

It is this de-emphasisis of US specific history and government that is one of the reasons many people find IB to be eurocentric.

sadkfjl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IB Diploma students take Government their
> sophomore year, History of the Americas (up to the
> civil war) junior year and 20th Century Topics
> (which continues US history though modern times)
> senior year. The class IB students do not take is
> World History I. They start freshman year with
> pre-IB World History II. They do not miss out on
> American History or Government.

Another suggestion for tomorrow evening's IB/AP meeting at South Lakes: How about teaching AP Government as the tenth grade government course for pre-IB students? That would bring an AP course into South Lakes almost painlessly.

Can tenth graders handle AP? YES. Many FCPS AP schools routinely offer AP World Civ as the "honors" sophomore-level social studies course.

Thomas More Wrote:

>
> On the other hand adding McNair or Coppermine to
> Herndon, even after removing Aldrin and Armstrong
> as in Option 4, still leaves Herndon's FRL below
> County average.
>
>

You do not seriously believe that? . . . you are clearly bias in what you want and do not look at big picture without prejudice. If you are going strictly by what the county printed out for you on the options, then you are a very misguided individual who is buying everything the SB is selling . . . . .FRL would NOT go down for Herndon High if they lost North Reston/Herndon to South Lakes by putting in McNair. . . . c'mon, do not insult the intelligence of people here.

what? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> >
> > On the other hand adding McNair or Coppermine
> to
> > Herndon, even after removing Aldrin and
> Armstrong
> > as in Option 4, still leaves Herndon's FRL
> below
> > County average.
>
> You do not seriously believe that?

Yes, I do. The numbers available say that such a set of changes moves HHS' FRL from 18% to 19% which is still lower that the 20% county average.

> . . . you are
> clearly bias in what you want and do not look at
> big picture without prejudice.

Your're right, I demand equality of burden for South Lakes and the unification of Reston's kids in Reston's high school: South Lakes.

> If you are going
> strictly by what the county printed out for you on
> the options, then you are a very misguided
> individual who is buying everything the SB is
> selling . . . . .

You seem to have an epistomological problem. If the FCPS staff information is incorrect, provide the correct information and it's source and derivation. As my prior posts have clearly demonstrated, I am skeptical of the SL administration and the FCPS staff in general. However until another source of reliable information is provided, we're stuck working with what we have.

Or maybe you just don't like the conclusions drawn from that information.

> FRL would NOT go down for
> Herndon High if they lost North Reston/Herndon to
> South Lakes by putting in McNair. . . . c'mon, do
> not insult the intelligence of people here.

Never wrote it would go down. Wrote that it would go up infinitesimally but still stay below County average.

I can't believe you can't do better than this level of argumentation.

Ah, OK, I get it. Knock another school down, Kick 'em too, while they are down . . . . . so long as they are not dead - you are OK with it.

what? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ah, OK, I get it. Knock another school down, Kick
> 'em too, while they are down . . . . . so long as
> they are not dead - you are OK with it.

So better to keep SL at 33% or not reduce its FRL to the lowest extent practical.

I've never heard that HHS is down. How is 19% FRL dead. If 19% is dead, what's 24% which is what SL will be after Option 4 is adopted.

You'd have been better off if the Herndon school board member hadn't insisted on excluding Langley. Then Forestville, which once attended HHS, could have been relocated to HHS and reduced its FRL. Go ask Strauss why she's protecting Langley at HHS's expense.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sadkfjl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > IB Diploma students take Government their
> > sophomore year, History of the Americas (up to
> the
> > civil war) junior year and 20th Century Topics
> > (which continues US history though modern
> times)
> > senior year. The class IB students do not take
> is
> > World History I. They start freshman year with
> > pre-IB World History II. They do not miss out
> on
> > American History or Government.
>
> Thanks for the answer. Is it US government? Or
> comparative government?
>
> History of the Americas cannot possibly cover as
> much US material as US History, even accounting
> for the shorter time period covered. Time has to
> be devoted to non-US history and taken away from
> US history. Twentieth Century Topics is again not
> specific to the US.
>
> If it were true there wouldn't be 60 seniors at
> Robinson taking freshman US History now.
>
> It is this de-emphasisis of US specific history
> and government that is one of the reasons many
> people find IB to be eurocentric.


It is American Government. My 20th century topics class, though not completely focused on the US definately covered US history material (industrial revolution, WWI, WWII, Cold War, Vietnam, etc.) Over the course of junior and senior year, students do get the full scope of American History. I took an American History class in college and found that my high school classes had covered most everything we covered in the college class.

and by american government i mean united states.

oh one more thing... When students drop out of the IB history track, for whatever reason, they go back and take freshman history becuase that is the class they need in order to graduate. That could be a reason why some students are in the freshman history class.

sadkfjl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> It is American Government.

Good

> My 20th century topics
> class, though not completely focused on the US
> definately covered US history material (industrial
> revolution, WWI, WWII, Cold War, Vietnam, etc.)
> Over the course of junior and senior year,
> students do get the full scope of American
> History. I took an American History class in
> college and found that my high school classes had
> covered most everything we covered in the college
> class.

Couldn't be as much as would be covered in an AP US History course or even an honor US history course because they have to cover the history of the rest of the Americas iin the first class and the rest of the world in the second class.

Why are you taking US history in college and not World or European history?

im a slacker

>>>>“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell” [Harry S Truman.<<<<

I LOVE it! We are laughing out loud, literally. This quote is SO YOU!!!!

"June 07 South Lakes PTSA Newsletter

South Lakes IB By the Numbers:

219 Number of students taking exams
129 Number of students taking exams for certificates
55 Number of students taking exams for IB Diploma
272 Registrations in 11 higher level subjects
383 Registrations in 15 standard level subjects

Tests were counted, packaged, and mailed all over the world for grading. Tests
this year were mailed to Dubai, Vietnam, and several other exotic locations."


So, in summary, Vietnamese and people from other "exotic" countries are grading South Lakes High School, FCPS tests??

Is everyone good with this??

VaDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tests were counted, packaged, and mailed all over
> the world for grading. Tests
> this year were mailed to Dubai, Vietnam, and
> several other exotic locations."
>
> So, in summary, Vietnamese and people from other
> "exotic" countries are grading South Lakes High
> School, FCPS tests??

When I lived in North Carolina, I worked for a company that graded papers from all over the U.S. My batch was from the Illinois Dept of Ed.

Never heard of tests being sent overseas, though.

>>>Do you think that if South Lakes were to accept the McNair ES district, that it would be consistent with their desire for diversity?<<<

Yes.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VaDriver Wrote:
--------------------------------------------------

Tests were counted, packaged, and mailed all
over the world for grading. Tests
this year were mailed to Dubai, Vietnam, and
several other exotic locations."
So, in summary, Vietnamese and people from
other "exotic" countries are grading South Lakes High
School, FCPS tests??
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berdhuis Wrote:

When I lived in North Carolina, I worked for a
company that graded papers from all over the U.S.
My batch was from the Illinois Dept of Ed.

Never heard of tests being sent overseas, though.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At least your grading was all in the USA...but this is really the ultimate in "outsourcing" and a bit weird....!

>>>you'll see that the County average for FRL is 20%<<<

So what? Some schools have over 50% and some have less than 5%. No school is guaranteed to be 'average'.

>>>There are only two ways to lower SL's FRL burden<<<

There is another way, educate the kids in elementary school so that it won't matter by the time they get to high school they will be competitive. There is no reason why McNair and Dogwood and Terraset can't do a better job of educating their students, like other low income schools in the county and the state.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Do you think that if South Lakes were to accept
> the McNair ES district, that it would be
> consistent with their desire for diversity?<<<
>
> Yes.

Well, I can imagine the SB backing off from accomplishing all of their goals at once, and settling on a partial resolution to its enrollment issue. If options 1-4 weren't a complete exercise in folly, then I can see just McNair being sent to South Lakes for now.

><>>Why aren't they published annually as part of the GTAC report?<<<

Staff wouldn't like it and staff controls the advisory committees, to a greater or lesser extent. Staff chooses committee chairs, staff controls the agendas, and staff writes the end of year reports to the school board.

Don't forget, our school board says we have a completely open and transparent system.

Hahahahahaha.................



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2007 08:55PM by Neen.

>>>>It is this de-emphasisis of US specific history and government that is one of the reasons many people find IB to be eurocentric.<<<

Doesn't everyone know that IB is a European program? That's one of the reasons why our liberal school board and staff liked it.

South Lakes
EngI 26 28 28
EngII 14 27 28
TheArtI 13
Fr I 29
Fr II 13
GerII 17
SpI 22 25
SpII 23
MathHLI 6
MusI 9
MusII 16
VisArtHLII 24
VisArtHLI 18 22
BioI 29 30 31
BioII 23
ChemI 29 30 30 30
ChemII 21
PhysI 29 29
HistIITops 19 26 28
HistIHOA 29 29 30

WOW!!! South Lakes has some REALLY small classes! So, what's the problem? Parents at other high schools would LOVE to have classes that small. Other high schools are happy to have ANY classes under 29-30.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn't everyone know that IB is a European
> program? That's one of the reasons why our
> liberal school board and staff liked it.

Here's a scenario and question - what if we wanted to send our children on a study abroad program in England for a year, would FCPS accept IB course credit from the English school?

>>>Tests were counted, packaged, and mailed all over the world for grading. Tests
this year were mailed to Dubai, Vietnam, and several other exotic locations."


So, in summary, Vietnamese and people from other "exotic" countries are grading South Lakes High School, FCPS tests??

Is everyone good with this??<<<<

Yes, of course FCPS is good with this! We LOVE diversity! Any other country in the world is better than the US.

>>>Never heard of tests being sent overseas, though.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At least your grading was all in the USA...but this is really the ultimate in "outsourcing" and a bit weird....!<<<

IB is not a US program. It's a European company, based in Wales.

>>>If options 1-4 weren't a complete exercise in folly, then I can see just McNair being sent to South Lakes for now.<<<

I would agree with you, except Dean Tistadt said at the last meeting that none of those 4 scenarios were likely to be the final boundary design. He said that the meeting was just for 'information gathering'. So I have no idea if McNair will be moved in the final proposal. It seems that what 2,500+ people say at these meetings has little or no impact on their decisions.

>>>what if we wanted to send our children on a study abroad program in England for a year, would FCPS accept IB course credit from the English school?<<<

I cannot say with certainty, but I would think so. IB is a good program for kids who might transfer to a European high school or who might want to go college in Europe.

IB is a niche program and should always have been treated that way. Having an IB magnet at one or two schools in FCPS would make sense. Forcing IB on all our low performing schools never made sense. Poor students are our LEAST likely students to go be going to college in Europe.

Neen Wrote:
> ... IB is a niche program and should always have been
> treated that way. Having an IB magnet at one or
> two schools in FCPS would make sense. Forcing IB
> on all our low performing schools never made
> sense. Poor students are our LEAST likely
> students to go be going to college in Europe.

---------------
Bernadette Glaze, “Coordinator for Advanced Academic Programmes, Fairfax County (Virginia) Public Schools” and a strong advocate of IB, is quoted by name in IBO documentation as proclaiming, “Student enrollment and achievement in IB courses at our most diverse schools show that high expectations lead to high performance. The IB programme teaches our students that being smart is not a matter of heredity, but of motivation and hard work” [“Overview of IB in the United States.” International Baccalaureate Organization. 2004. p. 6].

This glowing endorsement ignores such details as the appallingly low level of Black and Hispanic participation in IB HIGH LEVEL MATH and SCIENCE courses.

As noted by other posters, it is difficult to dig out current data, but of 2,307 Black students attending FCPS IB high schools in 02-03, only TWO Black students in the entire County passed IB High Level math and only SEVEN Black students passed an IB High Level science exam. (In the same year, of 2,685 Black students in AP schools, 64 AP math or science exams were passed by Black students.)

Of 2,968 Hispanic students attending FCPS IB high schools in 03-04, only ONE Hispanic student in the entire County passed the IB High Level math exam and only FIVE Hispanic students passed a High Level science exam. (In the same year, of 3,322 Hispanic students in AP schools, 100 AP math or science exams were passed by Hispanic students.)

>>>>Bernadette Glaze, “Coordinator for Advanced Academic Programmes, Fairfax County (Virginia) Public Schools” and a strong advocate of IB, is quoted by name in IBO documentation as proclaiming, “Student enrollment and achievement in IB courses at our most diverse schools show that high expectations lead to high performance. The IB programme teaches our students that being smart is not a matter of heredity, but of motivation and hard work”<<<<

And why does ONLY IB do this? AP doesn't reward motivation and hard work?

Is Ms Glaze saying that kids in IB aren't smart? Or just kids in diverse schools aren't smart but can succeed anyway, if they work hard?

Judging from the stats, it's not difficult to see why FCPS keeps them buried.

>> WOW!!! South Lakes has some REALLY small classes!

It appears that taking valuable teacher resources for really small IB classes is the real cause for not offering a variety of general ed and honors classes at SL.

Too many teachers are teaching too few students.

SL doesn't need more students, it needs fully enrolled classes.

Doesn't IB also require a full time teaching postion that is for coordination only? I don't believe the coordinator teaches any classes.
That a missed opportunity for 5 more classes being offered.

> So better to keep SL at 33% or not reduce its FRL
> to the lowest extent practical.
>
> I've never heard that HHS is down. How is 19% FRL
> dead. If 19% is dead, what's 24% which is what SL
> will be after Option 4 is adopted.
>
> You'd have been better off if the Herndon school
> board member hadn't insisted on excluding Langley.
> Then Forestville, which once attended HHS, could
> have been relocated to HHS and reduced its FRL.
> Go ask Strauss why she's protecting Langley at
> HHS's expense.

You never heard Herndon is down, because it isn't. I said you suggest "knocking Herndon down" for your own gain. Raising Herndon FRL AT ALL to benefit SL is wrong. . . what other school in this boundary issue will have an increased ESOL or FRL by moving kids in OR out of the school? Why does SL want to pull from the only other diverse school in this study at the risk of creating another South Lakes? Simply because some of the addresses are in Reston?

Why SL is where it is today has nothing to do with Herndon High . . . why would SL want to hurt another school for its own gain? I don't believe the majority of people there do. . . however, posts like yours give the impression that there is an intent to hurt entire schools so long as South Lakes can gain some balance.

Langley isn't in this study - it has been said over and over. Whether anyone likes it or not - it isn't - and won't be . . .right, wrong, or indifferent.

What would these numbers look like?

Aldrin, Fox Mill, Madison Island to South Lakes

McNair to Herndon

I was just looking at the maps and trying to make logical geographic boundaries...not promoting this...just wondering...

what? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You never heard Herndon is down, because it isn't.
> I said you suggest "knocking Herndon down" for
> your own gain. Raising Herndon FRL AT ALL to
> benefit SL is wrong. . .

Why? The only way FRL at South Lakes goes down is if someone else's in the Western Boundary goes up. Why not Herndon?

> Why does
> SL want to pull from the only other diverse school
> in this study at the risk of creating another
> South Lakes?

Going from 18 to 19% FRL will cause Herndon to become another South Lakes. Is Herndon adopting IB also. Is Herndon going to have 7 years of incompetent leadership from its principal?

> Simply because some of the addresses
> are in Reston?

It's not about addresses but a boundary that has existed and been recogonized by the County since 1965 and was wrongfully ignored for 20 years.

> Why SL is where it is today has nothing to do with
> Herndon High . . .

It absolutely does. Reston kids were poached to prop up Herndon's attendance and hold down its FRL.


> why would SL want to hurt
> another school for its own gain? I don't believe
> the majority of people there do. . . however,
> posts like yours give the impression that there is
> an intent to hurt entire schools so long as South
> Lakes can gain some balance.

I can't tell if that rationalization is an intentional misrepresentatioin or reflective of self victimization.

The support of Option 4 is about making right a wrong done. HHS FRL has been held down artificially by wrongfully assigning Reston's kids to Herndon's high school. We want the integrity of our community recognized and respected. Imagine a high school attendance boundary down the middle of Elden Street. Wouldn't happen. But that's been the case in Reston for years. That's wrong.

And you show great disrespect for the concerns of Reston when you ignore these facts and history and pose as a victim in this process.

Can anyone tell me why South Lakes' parents are so opposed to AP? Without South Lakes converting to an AP program, most parents from other schools aren't going to send their kids to South Lakes. If they had wanted an IB program, they would be in one. So what's wrong with South Lakes becoming an AP school?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can anyone tell me why South Lakes' parents are so
> opposed to AP? Without South Lakes converting to
> an AP program, most parents from other schools
> aren't going to send their kids to South Lakes.
> If they had wanted an IB program, they would be in
> one. So what's wrong with South Lakes becoming an
> AP school?

Absolutely nothing. Please wave your magic wand and make it happen tonight while I'm sleeping.

IB is supported by a small cabal who appreciate the disproportionate allocation of teacher resources their children get though the programme,

but mostly it's inertia.