In the Connection article about Stu Gibson being found in violation of the laws regarding children's privacy in public school, did anyone else find this last paragraph odd?

>>>Paul Regnier, FCPS Office of Community Relations coordinator, said the school system would not and could not comment as the issue is ongoing.<<<<

FCPS cannot comment, yet Stu Gibson can? He's not a part of the school system?

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=91289&paper=66&cat=104

SLVerity,
The problem with boys and IB is not writing, it's math, engineering and computer science. Many boys want to major in one of those fields, and IB simply does not prepare them well for those fields. AP is much better for boys who hope to enroll in engineering schools.

Like it or not, many parents do not want IB. It is regrettable that South Lakes got stuck with IB, but your school board rep loves IB. He will never let AP replace it, no matter what parents want. That will always be an issue for many parents of boys, and girls, who hope to major in computer science and/or engineering.

Thomas said:
>>>SL PTA has taken no position on this issue.<<<

I would have to disagree with you on that since the SL PTA website most certainly does take a position on redistricting. I have seen NOTHING on the PTA website that indicates anything but PTA support for their own option #5.

SLVerity Wrote:
>
> I think the IB program is great, but it could be
> enhanced with math courses for the engineering
> minded. ... SL is the only IB school that
> currently does not offer any AP courses, including
> those far smaller. ...
>
[Where do you find the list of AP courses currently offered in FCPS IB schools? I only have last year's FCPS list of "AP COURSES OFFERED." It shows super-big Robinson with six AP courses, Annandale with three, Lee and Stuart one each (Stat and Gov't), and none at Edison, Marshall, Mt Vernon, or South Lakes.]

Do you really think a single AP course at South Lakes will make much difference?

Word said:

""Actually the plan is to leave all the schoools underenrolled by a few hundred... primarily because they don't really know what they're doing.""

Well said! Funny AND true! We need more of that around here!

Thomas More said
>>>I really can't figure out any reason for a Reston/SL supporter to support any option other than 4<<<

Why did the SL PTA abandon that option

SlVerity, speaking from jail, states:

Here's the truth, I don't know my ass from my elbow.

Get me out of this place.

Bird,
Forget about it. I am not contributing to his bail. He's on his own.

I think I am going to lose my bet that this thread would hit 100 pages about the time of the 3rd meeting. We're way ahead of schedule. Darn.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would have to disagree with you on that since
> the SL PTA website most certainly does take a
> position on redistricting.

As a general proposition, maybe, but to what part of the website do you refer?

> I have seen NOTHING on
> the PTA website that indicates anything but PTA
> support for their own option #5.

Nice try shifting the burden of proof.

Though Maria Allen is a proponent of Option 5 and apparently Vandenberg is also, they both claim to be acting only in their individual capacity in that advocacy and not in their official position as President and Vice President of SL PTA. It's a tightrope. We'll see how carefully they walk it.

Why do they have to walk a tightrope? They seem quite open about their support for their own option #5. But why did they abandon option #4?

If you want evidence of PTA support for their own option, go to the PTA website, then redistricting (one of the side bars) and then to talking points. You will get this site:
http://www.southlakesptsa.org/boundaries/Options-TalkingPoints.pdf

Doesn't that make it rather obvious which option the South Lakes PTA supports?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do they have to walk a tightrope?

Because there would be adverse consequences for them individually and the SL PTA if they breech the restrictions of that charter.

> They seem quite open about their support for their own option #5.

Which is ok so long as they make clear to everyone that their advocacy for Option 5 is not an official SL PTA proposal but only their personal opinions. If either of them work at South Lakes, they would also have to make clear that their advocacy is not reflective of an official position of the administration of SL. The disclaimers will take up all of their 3 minutes before the School Board. ;-)

> But why did they abandon option #4?

Ask them. The balance of the Reston community which supports Option 4 is completely baffled by this.

> Doesn't that make it rather obvious which option
> the South Lakes PTA supports?

Its an evaluation of the pro's and cons of all 5 options, When does it advocate for Option 5.

You can't be serious! Option #5 is the only one in RED and the only one that they state has no negatives but lots of positives! PLUS, no option #5 was presented by FCPS, South Lakes PTA made it up and put in on their handouts, IN RED. It's obvious that is the option that the PTA supports. If that is not true, it shouldn't be on the PTSA website as if that is what they support. Nor should it be on the PTSA handouts.

Of course the PTSA supports option #5!

Just noting for the morning news:

Amazing how the rich white guy got out of jail so fast. I guess he paid off the warden.

Perhaps the reason why the SL PTSA does not support Option 4 is that they know that it will ruin HHS and create the very problem that this redistricting is supposed to solve. How loud would SL scream if the "Staff" or the SB suggested taking their top elementary feeder and allowed the 'white to get whiter" and "the rich to get richer??"

ghg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps the reason why the SL PTSA does not
> support Option 4 is that they know that it will
> ruin HHS and create the very problem that this
> redistricting is supposed to solve. How loud would
> SL scream if the "Staff" or the SB suggested
> taking their top elementary feeder and allowed the
> 'white to get whiter" and "the rich to get
> richer??"

Most of the kids in Armstrong and Aldrin live in Reston. Option 4 still leaves HHS below County average for FRL. Hardly ruining HHS unless it is far more fragile than SL which has managed quite well at almost double HHS' number for a decade

SL's FRL is 33%. Option 4 lowers that metric the most, SL is also the most ethnically diverse school in western Fairfax. Your rant makes no sense.

Why would SL's PTA work against the best interest of Reston and South Lakes to advance the best interests of HHS?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2007 01:48AM by Thomas More.

Tom..

pop another Zoloft... now

Tom...

You think you can only edit once... we all edit once or twice, right? But, you can't.... Neither can SL Verity.. (Verity is still in jail, by the way, as you, walk, freely)

You edit once.... then, you start feeling anxious, right? What about all those other mistakes? So, you go back and .... well, you know what you do.

BirdLover Wrote: Margie, get lost.

Margie's getting told off by a high school re-districter???

haha- what is this fuckin forum coming to??

LOL

This is an interesting quote from The Connection. I think a similar situation is about to occur at South Lakes if this ever goes through.

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=91439&paper=62&cat=110

"At the meeting we attended at Chantilly, a South Lakes parent passed a message from her daughter — the message was "We don't want your children attending South Lakes; you are not wanted." This warning was ominous for me as I was involved in a boundary change in my eighth-grade year moving from the Jefferson District to the JEB Stuart District. Similar warnings from the students were sent to those of us who moved schools. When I arrived at Stuart for my freshman year, the group of us who moved were greeted with hostility and threats. My first two years at Stuart included several riots, multiple assaults (including stabbings and shootings, and several bombings), and an atmosphere of fear that pervaded every activity."

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > (option 4) and even the
> > SLHS PTA doesn't recommend that option.
>
> SL PTA has taken no position on this issue. Any
> representation to the contrary is against the PTA
> charter. Any officer of that PTA advocating for a
> specific option has a very delicate line to walk
> to make sure that the public at large doesn't
> confuse individual advocacy with advocacy by the
> organization they are supposed to serve.
>
> Option 4 has lots of support in the Reston
> community

Interesting. There were four SL students in the small room I was in. When it was time to discuss the disadvantages of Option 4, one of the students stated that it was a disadvantage because "it will never happen." I couldn't tell if she was disappointed or not, but maybe she was.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity,
> The problem with boys and IB is not writing, it's
> math, engineering and computer science. Many boys
> want to major in one of those fields, and IB
> simply does not prepare them well for those
> fields. AP is much better for boys who hope to
> enroll in engineering schools.
>
> Like it or not, many parents do not want IB. It
> is regrettable that South Lakes got stuck with IB,
> but your school board rep loves IB. He will never
> let AP replace it, no matter what parents want.
> That will always be an issue for many parents of
> boys, and girls, who hope to major in computer
> science and/or engineering.

YES!! Now that grandfathering seems almost certain, this is my main issue. And don't tell me about the kid down the street who got an engineering scholarship to Tech. Even if it's true, how many college kids from IB are struggling in those fields? Sorry SL, no matter how good IB may have been for your kids, and no matter how much anecdotal evidence you provide, it's not as good for science, etc.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity,
> The problem with boys and IB is not writing, it's
> math, engineering and computer science. Many boys
> want to major in one of those fields, and IB
> simply does not prepare them well for those
> fields. AP is much better for boys who hope to
> enroll in engineering schools.
>
> Like it or not, many parents do not want IB. It
> is regrettable that South Lakes got stuck with IB,
> but your school board rep loves IB. He will never
> let AP replace it, no matter what parents want.
> That will always be an issue for many parents of
> boys, and girls, who hope to major in computer
> science and/or engineering.


YES!! Now that grandfathering seems almost certain, this is my main issue. And don't tell me about the kid down the street who got an engineering scholarship to Tech. Even if it's true, how many college kids from IB are struggling in those fields? Sorry SL, no matter how good IB may have been for your kids, and no matter how much anecdotal evidence you provide, it's not as good for science, etc.

They will be the kids that didn't go to Langston Hughes for middle school, so they will be obvious.



possiblenewkid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > we would welcome the McNair students with open
> > arms if they come. Would you accept them at
> your
> > school if the county sent them your way? Or
> would
> > you complain that they were somehow ruining
> your
> > school? I submit that it would be a baby step
> > down, or perhaps not a step down at all.
>
>
> Will they be wearing big "McNair" signs when they
> come in the building? How will you know which
> kids went to McNair, or any elementary school for
> that matter? I hope that any new students next
> year will just blend in with the rest of the
> student population at any school and not be outed
> as the new kids who were forced to come.

SLVerity Wrote:
> I want to know more about what Birduis says about
> the McNair students. My information is based on
> the Title I label.

Well, I've done some number crunching on how McNair 6th graders may have progressed through Rachel Carson MS on the SOL Reading test (2002 Standards). Here are the numbers; try and follow this:

For 6th grade only -
McNair ES had 99 test takers with 32 fails.
Remaining Elementary Schools that feed into Carson MS had a total of 24 fails.
Total Elementary Schools that feed into Carson MS had 56 fails.

Percentage of McNair fails to total fails for all feeder schools into Carson = 57%

For 8th grade only -
Rachel Carson MS had 537 test takers with 36 fails

I apply 57% failure rate to 36 fails and get 21 fails for former McNair students.

We see a 50% improvement among McNair students after they have been in Carson MS.

Of course, this is an estimate and should not be construed as exact. Nevertheless, from my observation and interaction with McNair and Carson students on a daily basis, I find it entirely likely that the improvement rate is around 50% on the Reading test.

I haven't run the numbers for the other tests - too busy playing with the children and having snowball fights. I love it when the kids hide behind cars; snowballs make that beautiful "thunk" when they hit the cars....

Hope this helps.

"For 8th grade only -
Rachel Carson MS had 537 test takers with 36 fails

I apply 57% failure rate to 36 fails and get 21 fails for former McNair students.

We see a 50% improvement among McNair students after they have been in Carson MS."

How do you know that all 36 fails weren't former McNair students? All you know is the number of fails, nothing about the elementary school of origin for the students who failed. Also, maybe the kids learned English better in the 2 years of middle school and would have impoved whether they went to Carson or somewhere else.

foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do you know that all 36 fails weren't former
> McNair students? All you know is the number of
> fails, nothing about the elementary school of
> origin for the students who failed. Also, maybe
> the kids learned English better in the 2 years of
> middle school and would have impoved whether they
> went to Carson or somewhere else.

How do I know that 24 out of those 36 fails weren't former students of the remaining elementary schools? Then that would leave only 12 fails from former McNair students.

Read carefully and understand that I wrote that this was not exact. Also, understand that I am not rating Carson, but attempting to quantify improvement among former McNair students.

my greatest desire in life is to become a South Lakes Teacher THEN get caught on camera by chris Hanson of dateline To catch a predator! What a RESTON RUSH!
looks out all you sweet reston South lakes Boys! im coming for YOU

Does anyone know if the addition to Westfield is open and what the school board plans to do with the 500 - 700 empty seat it will be creating at Westfield? Also, has construction started for the new addition to Langley?

Thanks.

Just a question Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone know if the addition to Westfield is
> open and what the school board plans to do with
> the 500 - 700 empty seat it will be creating at
> Westfield? Also, has construction started for the
> new addition to Langley?
>
> Thanks.

Yes, the addition to Westfield is open.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a question Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Does anyone know if the addition to Westfield
> is
> > open and what the school board plans to do with
> > the 500 - 700 empty seat it will be creating at
> > Westfield? Also, has construction started for
> the
> > new addition to Langley?
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> Yes, the addition to Westfield is open.


Do you know what plans they have for all the empty classrooms?

Just a question Wrote:

> Do you know what plans they have for all the empty
> classrooms?

No, I don't.

The CIP back up data has a pdf document for each school. Hughes lists it's base school students as attending South Lakes and Oakton. Which area is at Oakton?

Is this perchance someone's street who is a personal friend or associate of anyone who has a degree of authority or level of access?

Clarifier has argued that IB math is just as good for all but a few off-the-charts math/science/engineering kids.

I think Clarifier doesn't realize that FCPS is allowing far more seventh grade students this year (over 1000) to take Algebra 1 than six years ago (under 300). South Lakes and other IB schools will see increasing numbers of these students, and some will want to take as much math as they can during high school.

FCPS already has started offering live multivariable calculus and linear algebra classes in over half a dozen base high schools, to accommodate the demand for these classes from students who take AP Calculus BC in 11th grade.

Multivariable calculus usually is taken after a student finishes two semesters of single variable calculus. The IB HL Math syllabus outline specifies that students must spend 48 out of 240 hours (over two years) on calculus. Given the order of topics in the syllabus and the fact that students will take HL Math in 11th and 12th graders, those 48 hours presumably occur during senior year. AP Calculus BC class spends (by definition) over 120 hours on calculus in one year, and in AP high schools many kids take Calc BC in 11th grade.


foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
>
> YES!! Now that grandfathering seems almost
> certain, this is my main issue. And don't tell me
> about the kid down the street who got an
> engineering scholarship to Tech. Even if it's
> true, how many college kids from IB are struggling
> in those fields? Sorry SL, no matter how good IB
> may have been for your kids, and no matter how
> much anecdotal evidence you provide, it's not as
> good for science, etc.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clarifier has argued that IB math is just as good
> for all but a few off-the-charts
> math/science/engineering kids.
>
> I think Clarifier doesn't realize that FCPS is
> allowing far more seventh grade students this year
> (over 1000) to take Algebra 1 than six years ago
> (under 300). South Lakes and other IB schools
> will see increasing numbers of these students, and
> some will want to take as much math as they can
> during high school.
>
> FCPS already has started offering live
> multivariable calculus and linear algebra classes
> in over half a dozen base high schools, to
> accommodate the demand for these classes from
> students who take AP Calculus BC in 11th grade.
>
> Multivariable calculus usually is taken after a
> student finishes two semesters of single variable
> calculus. The IB HL Math syllabus outline
> specifies that students must spend 48 out of 240
> hours (over two years) on calculus. Given the
> order of topics in the syllabus and the fact that
> students will take HL Math in 11th and 12th
> graders, those 48 hours presumably occur during
> senior year. AP Calculus BC class spends (by
> definition) over 120 hours on calculus in one
> year, and in AP high schools many kids take Calc
> BC in 11th grade.
>
>
> foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
> >
> > YES!! Now that grandfathering seems almost
> > certain, this is my main issue. And don't tell
> me
> > about the kid down the street who got an
> > engineering scholarship to Tech. Even if it's
> > true, how many college kids from IB are
> struggling
> > in those fields? Sorry SL, no matter how good
> IB
> > may have been for your kids, and no matter how
> > much anecdotal evidence you provide, it's not
> as
> > good for science, etc.


If I follow your points, are you saying that even if kids take HL math, they still couldn't take an on-line AP course in linear algebra (or other senior course for kids who took algebra in 7th grade)? Or if they did, they would likely be taking it without having had all the previous material that their counterparts in an AP school will have had? Also, what do the IB kids do in 10th grade if they took algebra in 7th, geo in 8th, etc.?

According to the September 2005 FCPS "Secondary Mathematics: Sample Course Sequence," students who take Algebra 1 in 7th grade and attend IB high schools follow this sequence:

9th: Algebra 2
10th: Pre-IB Precalculus
11th: IB HL Math (1st year)
12th: IB HL Math (2nd year)

I think it would be difficult for students to take multivariable calculus without first completing a full year of single variable calculus (i,e., Calc BC). That would be true for online as well as live courses.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a question Wrote:
>
> > Do you know what plans they have for all the
> empty
> > classrooms?
>
> No, I don't.

they no longer think their academy models work so plan to have high schools of the future. they appear to be consortiums where base school students that want to or are advised into can take vo-tech or technical career oriented classes. Westfield would serve sveral schools - perhaps they will move the Chantilly Academy. How much space does that use? Given the 500 student decrease at Westfield [along with it's aerospace item] I am surprised they are planning a culinary arts /food service career thing at South Lakes. What are they doing - planning to bus kids to Westfield and South lakes or is the culinary arts only for South Lakes base school students? How many students will it serve and for what % of any child's academic day?

I guess between drop-outs [a newpaper article quoted FCPS at 40% of Hispanics drop-out] and the culinary/food service academy most kids who would otherwise be in what used to called college prep would not have much contact in core classes with a significant portion of the projected free and reduced meal or LEP students by the time they are juniors and seniors.

Taxpayer

Are you saying that now that the school board has built the extra wing of classrooms at Westfield (with special bond $$) they will now have the added expense of remodeling these classrooms to accomodate kitchen prep, auto mechanics, labs, etc for a new sort of academy?

Is anyone checking the price tag on all this? Not to mention the cost of the Boundary Study?

Maybe if SL could address that drop out rate and reduce the # who go to private school, they'd have enough students.

What do you mean that the academy models don't work? How are high schools of the future different? As I understand it, in both cases students would come from other schools to take the courses. I'm honestly asking the question, not trying to be a smart ass.

According to the FCPS handouts I've seen, the main difference between today's Academies and High Schools of the Future is that there will be more academy-like options within closer driving distance in the future.

foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
> ... don't tell me
> about the kid down the street who got an
> engineering scholarship to Tech. Even if it's
> true, how many college kids from IB are struggling
> in those fields? Sorry SL, no matter how good IB
> may have been for your kids, and no matter how
> much anecdotal evidence you provide, it's not as
> good for science, etc.

-----
For some American high school students, the IB Diploma programme is ideal.

IB is based on “The traditional strengths of a liberal arts curriculum.” "Assessments: "Diploma Programme assessment encourages an international outlook and intercultural skills. ... Student results are determined by performance against set standards, not by each student’s position in the overall rank order." [All quotes were taken from the IBO web site.]

Does this sound like your child?
• Highly organized and highly motivated
• Particularly strong in linguistics and interested in international affairs; not particularly interested in math or computers
• Likely to attend part of high school in another IB school and/or planning to apply to college in overseas.

MATH:
- As other posters have mentioned, IB does not have a calculus focus in either its math or its physics courses."Students are also encouraged to appreciate the international dimensions of mathematics and the multiplicity of its cultural and historical perspectives."
- For the students who are weak in math, “Mathematical studies SL is designed to provide a realistic option for students with varied backgrounds and abilities who are not likely to require mathematics beyond the Diploma Programme.”
- On the other hand, because the AP program is aligned with American college expectations, the AP program offers both AB and BC Calculus in addition to AP Statistics.

COMPUTER SCIENCE: The IB programme does offer a computer science elective. Several FCPS AP highs schools offer both Computer Science A and Computer Science AB. Perhaps someone from Robinson (an IB school) can tell us why it offers AP Computer Science but not IB Computer Science (according to the FCPS web site.)

SCIENCE: As noted earlier, the IB programme features “The traditional strengths of a liberal arts curriculum. “Practical laboratory skills are developed and collaborative learning is encouraged through an interdisciplinary group project. Students develop an awareness of moral and ethical issues and a sense of social responsibility is fostered by examining local and global issues”

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to the September 2005 FCPS "Secondary
> Mathematics: Sample Course Sequence," students who
> take Algebra 1 in 7th grade and attend IB high
> schools follow this sequence:
>
> 9th: Algebra 2
> 10th: Pre-IB Precalculus
> 11th: IB HL Math (1st year)
> 12th: IB HL Math (2nd year)
>
> I think it would be difficult for students to take
> multivariable calculus without first completing a
> full year of single variable calculus (i,e., Calc
> BC). That would be true for online as well as
> live courses.


So, it would seem that only students who took algebra in 7th grade would take HL math. Or is the 10th grade year optional? (waste of time?) Also, if you don't mind, can you tell us where this info is available? I've been looking around the FCPS website and can't find anything helpful re. this.

What I can't figure out is why kids who are strong enough in math to get through geometry by 8th grade finish IB high school a half a year behind in math compared to kids who take algebra in 8th grade and then go to AP high schools and do Calc BC. It sounds like the HL math kids finish Calc AB.

" Particularly strong in linguistics and interested in international affairs; not particularly interested in math or computers
• Likely to attend part of high school in another IB school and/or planning to apply to college in overseas. "


Uh, no, no and no.

just a queston Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Taxpayer
>
> Are you saying that now that the school board has
> built the extra wing of classrooms at Westfield
> (with special bond $$) they will now have the
> added expense of remodeling these classrooms to
> accomodate kitchen prep, auto mechanics, labs, etc
> for a new sort of academy?
>
> Is anyone checking the price tag on all this? Not
> to mention the cost of the Boundary Study?

I think the recent Bond referendum included about 6 million dollars for the High Schools of the future building changes/modifications. When they renovate or build new there are items not on bonds. What isn't funded via a bond should be things with shorter useful life. The school board website has a section where Gibson had asked about FCPS ver using operating fund money for academies - maybe in reference to his culinary arts/food service thing.

FR thanks for the IB description above - it sound ridiculous

Just a question Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> has construction started for the
> new addition to Langley?
>
> Thanks.
________________________________________________________________

As of August, 2007, it had not begun.

Connection Newspapers...

Illegal Dumping Frustrates Neighbors
Neighbors of Langley High School frustrated by lack of action on illegal dumping that occurred on school grounds last summer.
By Aranya Tomseth
August 8, 2007


.......Jane Strauss said she believes that some of the funding for the removal project will come out of the budget of the overall school division, as well as Langley High School’s renovation funds. Strauss added that she was told by county staff that the removal was scheduled to coincide with construction of a new two-story wing that will be added to Langley this year.

“Since they are about to start building the addition, I’m assuming that it will be a part of it,” said Strauss."

1) To all of you who care so deeply about AB vs IB -- attend the meeting at South Lakes on December 10 about the IB program. Many of your questions will be addressed. Otherwise, don't spread misinformation as many of you are doing now.

1) Re "Also, what do the IB kids do in 10th grade if they took algebra in 7th, geo in 8th, etc.?" They move it up a year. My son did that at South Lakes. Took the IB exam in 11th grade (got a 6) and is going on to an online multivariable calculus course now. IB in Fairfax Co. allows for that, contrary to what some might think.

3) SHLS is expecting to add AP math (and other) classes when there are enough kids who want or need them. Just like any school around here (you don't get multicalc at ANY school unless enough kids want it, for example). Ask Bruce Butler, or, better yet, ask about this on the 10th.

With more kids prepared to take these classes entering South Lakes, these classes WILL be there for them --- AND For the kids who go there now!!! That is one of the KEY reasons we NEED more base (not magnet -- don't go there) kids at South Lakes. Parity in programming with other schools. Thanks for making our point!!!

Once more, children:

IB courses are like AP courses in that you take them individually. JUST LIKE AP!

IB offers a diploma. You don't have to take it. (AP does not offer this.) Some posts above are confusing the IB diploma program with the IB program sans diploma.

IB offers a certificate. You don't have to get it. It requires that you take IB core courses without some of the "extras."

GO TO THE DECEMBER 10 MEETING!

Did anyone ever get the pupil placement figure for the SL kids going to a different school? I know that there was a prominent baseball player from SL that was given placement at Madison this year. I guess they make exceptions for sports programs....

Neen- I honestly think you need to give the Stu issue a rest.

Lee Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did anyone ever get the pupil placement figure for
> the SL kids going to a different school? I know
> that there was a prominent baseball player from SL
> that was given placement at Madison this year. I
> guess they make exceptions for sports
> programs....
>
> Neen- I honestly think you need to give the Stu
> issue a rest.

the school board has a report on pupil placements on it's website -
http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/Public?OpenFrameSet

it's on the right under reports to the school board. it shows who came to a school and why but has no info on each school's outflow and why. Poor quality report to the Supt Dale. I guess you can add up the numbers to back into how many left and why.

Clarifier, was your child allowed to take the IB HL Math exam or the IB SL Math exam at the end of 11th grade? How does he/she like the online multivar class?

Foxmill, the FCPS "Secondary Mathematics: Sample Course Sequences" chart has been handed out at FCPS committee meetings and should be available from Frank Atchison, the FCPS KG-12 math specialist.

Clarifier, yes it's possible for students to do something not on this FCPS math sequence chart. For example, a tiny number of FCPS students take Algebra 1 in sixth grade and/or Algebra 2/Trig in 8th grade. But the FCPS chart reflects what high school guidance departments will do unless a student or parent pushes hard for something different. And even then, schools often balk at departing from the chart.

I think all of you could learn something from this SLHS graduate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRARgdhwAC4

SLVerity Wrote:
> I want to know more about what Birduis says about
> the McNair students. My information is based on
> the Title I label.

While I was standing in line to register my youngest child into Kindergarten at McNair ES this past summer, I observed that a total of 107 children were being registered that afternoon.

While I was standing in line, I did a count based on ethnicity, and came up with this:
Whites: 8 children
South Asian: 33 children
East Asian: 23 children
Latino: 24 children
African: 19 children

I report this because the demographic shift that I have observed over the years is interesting. I see a significant increase in Asian immigrants compared to other immigrants.

I've seen it at the playground at McNair, too, and from just walking around. If we get shifted to South Lakes, then SL can expect a future increase in the Asian immigrant population.

Clarifier Wrote:

>
> 1) Re "Also, what do the IB kids do in 10th grade
> if they took algebra in 7th, geo in 8th, etc.?"
> They move it up a year. My son did that at South
> Lakes. Took the IB exam in 11th grade (got a 6)
> and is going on to an online multivariable
> calculus course now. IB in Fairfax Co. allows for
> that, contrary to what some might think.

Good to know. How does he like the online course? Can he use computers at school when he has a free period?

proudseahawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think all of you could learn something from this
> SLHS graduate.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRARgdhwAC4


That is easily one of the best graduation speaches I have ever heard. I urge all of you to listen to this speech. I believe Mr. Cox will have a bright future.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lee Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Did anyone ever get the pupil placement figure
> for
> > the SL kids going to a different school? I
> know
> > that there was a prominent baseball player from
> SL
> > that was given placement at Madison this year.
> I
> > guess they make exceptions for sports
> > programs....
> >
> > Neen- I honestly think you need to give the Stu
> > issue a rest.
>
> the school board has a report on pupil placements
> on it's website -
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/Pu
> blic?OpenFrameSet
>
> it's on the right under reports to the school
> board. it shows who came to a school and why but
> has no info on each school's outflow and why. Poor
> quality report to the Supt Dale. I guess you can
> add up the numbers to back into how many left and
> why.


Thanks for the link. Very interesting report. It definitely could use a summary.... I counted that 81 left South Lakes, and 50 came to South Lakes -- half of these were from Herndon.

I could totally geek out with these numbers and create charts and stuff.... *snort*

I heart statistics.

Clarifier Wrote:
> ... IB courses are like AP courses in that you take
> them individually. JUST LIKE AP!
>
> IB offers a diploma. You don't have to take it.
> (AP does not offer this.) Some posts above are
> confusing the IB diploma program with the IB
> program sans diploma. ...

--------------
As I have written before, the FULL IB DIPLOMA is wonderful for certain students.

But of course you are correct; many students only earn some certificates, not the full Diploma.

Number crunching time: In 05-06, the last year of results posted on the FCPS web site that I could find, system-wide 259 IB Diplomas were awarded. That year there were 15,098 students in attendance in IB high schools. If we multiply the number of IB Diploma grads by four (to represent the fours grades of students, not just seniors) we see a little LESS THAN SEVEN PERCENT OF FCPS STUDENTS IN IB SCHOOLS EARN THE FULL IB DIPLOMA.

--------
What about the other 93+% of students in IB schools? Now we run into a problem. A collection of IB certificates without the Diploma does not seem to impress college admissions officers very favorably.

Quite the contrary: If you are in an IB high school and are NOT going for the full IB Diploma, you are by definition NOT taking the "most rigorous" path possible and hurt yourself in the college admissions process. Of COURSE you can still get into college without a full IB Diploma! However, it would appear that students who attend IB high schools without seeking the full IB diploma may need additional attributes, such as athletic ability or some diverse attribute the school is seeking, to avoid going to the bottom of that college’s admissions pile.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the school board has a report on pupil placements
> on it's website ...

Thank you. It is always good to let everyone have the same fact base from which to discuss an issue.

Thanks also for the Student Transfer Report-interesting stuff....

BTW for the AP vs IB geeks-

253 kids transferred to take AP
341 kids transferred to take IB

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clarifier Wrote:
> > ... IB courses are like AP courses in that you
> take
> > them individually. JUST LIKE AP!
> >
> > IB offers a diploma. You don't have to take it.
> > (AP does not offer this.) Some posts above are
> > confusing the IB diploma program with the IB
> > program sans diploma. ...
>
> --------------
> As I have written before, the FULL IB DIPLOMA is
> wonderful for certain students.
>
> But of course you are correct; many students only
> earn some certificates, not the full Diploma.
>
> Number crunching time: In 05-06, the last year of
> results posted on the FCPS web site that I could
> find, system-wide 259 IB Diplomas were awarded.
> That year there were 15,098 students in attendance
> in IB high schools. If we multiply the number of
> IB Diploma grads by four (to represent the fours
> grades of students, not just seniors) we see a
> little LESS THAN SEVEN PERCENT OF FCPS STUDENTS IN
> IB SCHOOLS EARN THE FULL IB DIPLOMA.
>
> --------
> What about the other 93+% of students in IB
> schools? Now we run into a problem. A collection
> of IB certificates without the Diploma does not
> seem to impress college admissions officers very
> favorably.
>
> Quite the contrary: If you are in an IB high
> school and are NOT going for the full IB Diploma,
> you are by definition NOT taking the "most
> rigorous" path possible and hurt yourself in the
> college admissions process. Of COURSE you can
> still get into college without a full IB Diploma!
> However, it would appear that students who attend
> IB high schools without seeking the full IB
> diploma may need additional attributes, such as
> athletic ability or some diverse attribute the
> school is seeking, to avoid going to the bottom of
> that college’s admissions pile.



What is the equivalent with AP? Do top colleges NOT accept excellent students b/c they have many AP courses but not a omni-AP "diploma"? No.

Re: "Quite the contrary: If you are in an IB high school and are NOT going for the full IB Diploma, you are by definition NOT taking the "most rigorous" path possible and hurt yourself in the college admissions process."

Could you please support this with factual information? Admissions officers I have spoken with from UVA, Duke, Cornell, Madison, and Wm & Mary know that the IB diploma is only available in IB schools, and that AP diploma is not available (it is for those attending foreign schools). They also know that an IB course is equivalent to an AP course and that takign the courses themselves is, de jure, in fact going the most challenging path.

They may give more weight to a diploma candidate, but just as they give to kids who take AP classes as Freshmen or Sophomores or a full array as Jrs/Srs, who also do other challenging things. Don't forget that the diploma asks for extras like the extended essay, CAS hours, and the TOK course -- all of which have equivalents in other electives or extracurriculars that any kid can take to demonstrate intellectual depth, community involvement, etc. IB diploma kids choose the path for many reasons, and they have to give up other intersts -- just like achieving kids do in any walk of life, including those who take a dozen AP classes.

CAS in IB = "non-IB" community service through scouts or honor society or clubs, activity is sports or dance etc, and creativity is drama, fiction writing, clubs, etc.

Bottom mline is that the "extras" in IB are available in equivalent endeavors to kids who take IB without the diploma. And admissions officers know this.

I want to make a point about this AP vs IB "rigor" stuff. Full disclosure: I am biased in favor of IB. One of my kids is getting the IB diploma and the other went to TJ and loaded up on AP and is at UVA now.

IB and pre-IB teachers make no
bones about
the amount of reading and writing IB requires -- either the diploma or
individual courses.
And parents and kids get scared.

But here's a fact. Kids might struggle in 9th or even 10th grade with this, but
teachers are
terrific about bringing them along so that by the time they are in 11th grade,
they are
whipping off essays and reading for comprehension like nobody's business.

My IB son was the same way, hating writing and especially analyzing English lit --
and now
as a Senior he thinks NOTHING of writing an essay and can read efficiently and
in a way
that picks up on the important information (it can be done!). Through the oral exams, my near-silent child is an able speaker. And he has now come to
love
certain kids of fiction! I never, ever would have predicted it. He isn't alone.

He just explained to me that, having watched his brother go through AP English and History (among many others), he much prefers IB because you linger on the works you read (in every class) and really use the material. He witnessed his brother slog through book after book (and sometimes Sparknotes) to keep up, without ever spending enough time on anything.

My older son, in spite of being a great reader and writer, had a hard time with a couple of required courses in the engineering program at UVA. There was a fair bit of reading and a lot of synthesis and analysis. He struggled because he wasn't use to it. I just met a woman at the airport last night who went to an IB school in Switzerland and to UVA and is now an IT manager at her company. She is 26. She credits IB with having allowed her to see the big picture and tie it to the minutiae and make herself that much more valuable to her employer.

I don't believe there is ANY excuse for kids not to get through high school able
to write
and read fluidly, and IB -- including individual courses -- does a superior job
getting kids
to that goal.

I work for multiple engineering firms and let me tell you, the engineers who
suffer and are
now falling back in their careers are the ones who can't write well. That is
because the
business model has changed. Engineers are now part of propropsal writing, they
have to
create written deliverables, and they have to justify their work IN WRITING.
Scientists have
to do this now, IT folks do, and so does just about any professional anywhere.

And the fact also is that we have to do MORE reading than ever, not less, to get
by today,
and certainly to thrive. And people DO more reading, though they apparently are
doing
less comprehending! We're not talking fiction. We're talking material that our
bosses give
us, material that our colleagues give us, keeping up to date on current events
and
innovations in our fields, understanding specifications like construction
documents,
international and national standards, and our own company's requirements. We
need to
read and understand HR and employee guides, insurance programs, and doctor's
orders.
Not ot mention investment information and what our friends text us. The list is
endless.

IB not only gives kids the tools to do this, it is superior to AP because it
helps them
identify the NECESSARY and ESSENTIAL information they need for their purposes
-- out of
an infinte amount of information. It functions holistically so it helps kids
synthesize what
they're getting from all quarters of the information world. I can't say enough
about the
value of this!

I believe parents are fearful because of their own experiences. They are letting
their own
fears get in the way of what their kids can achieve.

Forum Reader,
Are you British? Is that why you always spell program as programme? Or is your spell check just set on British English?

Just wondering............

>>>Does anyone know if the addition to Westfield is open and what the school board plans to do with the 500 - 700 empty seat it will be creating at Westfield? Also, has construction started for the new addition to Langley?<<<

Yes the addition is complete at Wesfield. The school wants empty seats there because it's 'too large' now. Optimal size for high schools, this year, is 2,000. So even though it creates many empty seats, Westfield must decrease in size. Two years ago, when they added the addition, 3,100 students was ok. Now it's not.

Yes, construction on Langley has begun. The bonds to approve that were passed in 2005.

Hello, all, again.

I haven't posted on here recently, but that's because I realized that fighting back and forth over this issue won't resolve it any faster or even at all. Also, a lot of my friends at school (Westfield) are upset with the statement that the school board made in the televised portion of the meeting on Monday night. They said that any redistricting plans will affect rising ninth graders, but it is up to the jurisdiction of the board whether or not current students will be grandfathered next year to their current high schools. Honestly, when they've done redistricting in the past, they've bumped more than just rising freshman. Also, how much money will the county be losing if they send two different buses to one location, more gas money, not to mention hiring more bus drivers to cover the routes? So, I'm skeptical, despite what it says on their website.

Anyway, see you all at the Oakton meeting.

>>>>Particularly strong in linguistics and interested in international affairs; not particularly interested in math or computers
• Likely to attend part of high school in another IB school and/or planning to apply to college in overseas. "


Uh, no, no and no.<<<<

Yeh, most parents would agree with you. That's why most don't like IB. AND why it's particularly silly in low income/high minority schools. How many of those kids are going to apply to the Sorbonne?

SLHS Padre Wrote:
> What is the equivalent with AP? Do top colleges
> NOT accept excellent students b/c they have many
> AP courses but not a omni-AP "diploma"? No.

------
You seem to already understand this point. To quote the FCPS web site, “There is no AP diploma. The College Board, which administers AP exams, stopped offering an AP diploma four or five years ago. At that time, FCPS said it would continue recognizing students who take a specified number of AP courses and exams with an AP certificate. To earn an AP certificate from the Fairfax County Public Schools, a student must have taken an AP course in five different disciplines and make a score of not less than a three on each exam.”

I have never heard any students, parents, or college reps say they they really care about this FCPS-unique “AP Certificate.” [Yes, I realize graduating students who MIGHT earn it (but the scores are not back yet) might get to wear a special sash or something over their graduation gowns.]

Since there is no special select set of AP students who are in a special “Diploma programme” it is far easier for many students in an AP school to be categorized as “taking the most rigorous coursework” especially since the College Board (which runs both the AP and the SAT programs) has a series of "recognition levels." Since AP courses may be taken by underclassmen, AP students can have a proven track record of succeeding in college-level work in time to include it in their college applications.

"National AP Scholars" earn an average grade of at least 4 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 4 or higher on EIGHT or more of these exams. You may remember Woodson got IB the same time as South Lakes but then, after extensive community debate, Woodson rejected IB. To show you how that is working out for them, here are their data: In 2007 SEVEN Woodson students earned this high recognition.

"AP Scholars with Distinction" earn an average grade of at least 3.5 on all AP exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on five or more of these exams. Fifty-three Woodson students were "AP scholars with distinction" in 2007.

"AP Scholars with Honor" are students who earn an average grade of at least 3.25 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on four or more of these exams. Sixty Woodson students earned this honor.

In addition, Woodson had 130 "AP Scholars," students who earned grades of 3 or higher on three or more AP Exams.

That is 286 students who earned recognition for their success in AP.

Clarifier said, in his usual kind manner:

>>>>1) To all of you whocare so deeply about AB vs IB -- attend the meeting at South Lakes on December 10 about the IB program. Many of your questions will be addressed. Otherwise, don't spread misinformation as many of you are doing now.<<<<

Yes, much selling of the IB program will go on at that meeting. Much will also be omitted. FCPS hopes that you will leave that meeting secure in your full support of IB and South Lakes and you will spread the IB message, far and wide.

>>>1) (Again? Did you take IB math?) Re "Also, what do the IB kids do in 10th grade if they took algebra in 7th, geo in 8th, etc.?" They move it up a year. My son did that at South Lakes. Took the IB exam in 11th grade (got a 6) and is going on to an online multivariable calculus course now. IB in Fairfax Co. allows for that, contrary to what some might think.<<<

FCPS permits students to take an online math course? Big whoop. Could they stop them?

>>>3) Just like any school around here (you don't get multicalc at ANY school unless enough kids want it, for example). Ask Bruce Butler, or, better yet, ask about this on the 10th.

BUZZZ, wrong again. Under the new consortium model at least one AP school in each consortium will off Multi var and linear algebra. It has nothing to do with numbers at that high school. But some consortiums have 4 out of 5 schools offering those math courses at their AP schools.

I challenge anyone to find a booklet of course "offerings" at ANY school where ALL the courses are actually given. It is, in fact, about the numbers.

Students can take courses online during the time when they'd otherwise be in a class. In schools with insufficent populations of students to provide a teacher-presented course, this is often their only option.

Re AP and its College Board. I'd like to ask members this board whether they like the notion that the College Board is now running our entire nation's school system?

Sheep.

Neen - thanks for the answer - but I still have questions...yes I know the optimum high school is now 2,000 but no one has addressed the empty seats at Westfield and the cost to the taxpayers. I have heard about high schools of the future but that would require remodeling the new wing at Westfield to accomodate certain offerings. How much is this going to cost us??? the taxpayer.

The school board could have saved us $7.5 million if they had really looked at accurate numbers for South Lakes. Where is the oversight?

We spend over $20 million a year just paying interest on the bonds..when will the school board and staff be held accountable?

Please tell US the information below taken from the FCPS Frequently Asked Questions is not a valid reason to WASTE SO MUCH OF OUR MONEY$$$$

Question: What is the impact on students when schools are over-enrolled?

Answer:

In over-enrolled schools there is greater competition for limited positions in extra-curricula clubs and activities. For example, in over-enrolled schools there are fewer opportunities for students to assume leadership positions, participate in school plays, yearbook, newspaper or literary magazine.

In a school with over 2,500 students, your odds of making the sports team are significantly lower than in a smaller school. Many more students are interested than are able to participate. It is also very difficult to find coaches for JV and freshmen teams.

Opportunities to participate in sports such as golf, volleyball, tennis and basketball are limited in a school that is over-enrolled.

Teams such as cross-country, field hockey, and football may not cut athletes but only the very best actually get the opportunity to play on the field during games. For example, there are 47 seniors on one high school’s football team, and fewer than half are starting.

Over-enrolled schools draw over capacity crowds for football games, raising safety concerns. For example, at the last Centreville/Westfield game there were over 8,000 people in a stadium that was built to hold 5,000. Obviously, this also poses parking and safety challenges.

one more Question Wrote:
-
>
> In over-enrolled schools there is greater
> competition for limited positions in
> extra-curricula clubs and activities. For example,
> in over-enrolled schools there are fewer
> opportunities for students to assume leadership
> positions, participate in school plays, yearbook,
> newspaper or literary magazine.

Does anyone have numbers on how many students were turned down? Have you seen the size of Westfield's yearbook? It must have taken alot of kids to put that together.

My son is in his junior year at Westfield and has never been turned down for an activity. Not once. Who is complaining? Where are these disappointed kids? Can you count them? Can you quote them?
>
> In a school with over 2,500 students, your odds of
> making the sports team are significantly lower
> than in a smaller school. Many more students are
> interested than are able to participate. It is
> also very difficult to find coaches for JV and
> freshmen teams.
>
High School. We go for the academics. Un-American, I know, but there it is.

> Opportunities to participate in sports such as
> golf, volleyball, tennis and basketball are
> limited in a school that is over-enrolled.

They even have a freshman girls volleyball team. Where are these kids who don't get to play? Who are they?

>
> Teams such as cross-country, field hockey, and
> football may not cut athletes but only the very
> best actually get the opportunity to play on the
> field during games. For example, there are 47
> seniors on one high school’s football team, and
> fewer than half are starting.

Are they crying? Let's hear from the disappointed kids. This was never a problem until they wanted to nab some warm bodies for South Lakes.
>
> Over-enrolled schools draw over capacity crowds
> for football games, raising safety concerns. For
> example, at the last Centreville/Westfield game
> there were over 8,000 people in a stadium that was
> built to hold 5,000. Obviously, this also poses
> parking and safety challenges.

This is more garbage from the school board. This was a big game from two top schools that are about a mile apart. It was more crowded than the homecoming game and the playoff game that was hosted at Westfield. Since is it a bad thing that people support their school. I hear alot of enthusiasm from South Lakes students and parents about South Lakes. Why when we have demonstrated enthusiasm and support for Westfield, suddenly it is a bad thing?

No one was every worried about Westfield before. What about poor overcrowded Langley with the piles of dirt sliding into the river? Maybe you could make a cast to evacuate Langley and host them at South Lakes.

SLVerity, are you out there? I posted some stats on McNair at your request.

To summarize, McNair is teaming with immigrants (I love them all!) who have a tradition of high academic achievement. They just haven't had the time to learn English well.

Once they learn, they perform well.

So, would South Lakes rather snatch us without resistance from anybody (relatively speaking), and leave the hotly contested morsels alone?

Or is South Lakes fixated on the holy grail (white folk)?

JustSayin Wrote:

> This is more garbage from the school board. This
> was a big game from two top schools that are about
> a mile apart. It was more crowded than the
> homecoming game and the playoff game that was
> hosted at Westfield. Since is it a bad thing that
> people support their school. I hear alot of
> enthusiasm from South Lakes students and parents
> about South Lakes. Why when we have demonstrated
> enthusiasm and support for Westfield, suddenly it
> is a bad thing?
>
> No one was every worried about Westfield before.
> What about poor overcrowded Langley with the piles
> of dirt sliding into the river? Maybe you could
> make a cast to evacuate Langley and host them at
> South Lakes.

I agree.
My child has had NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER getting on a sports team. Maybe the ones who don't get on teams are the ones who sit in front of their Playstation all of the time and get no exercise.

FME Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I counted that
> 81 left South Lakes, and 50 came to South Lakes --
> half of these were from Herndon.
>
> I could totally geek out with these numbers and
> create charts and stuff.... *snort*
>
> I heart statistics.

Butler reported to the SL PTA that substantially more pupil-placed into SL for academic reasons than pupil-placed out for academic reasons. Memory says it was +45 but others could verify.

"Why when we have demonstrated enthusiasm and support for Westfield, suddenly it is a bad thing?"

It isn't a bad thing. I love that everyone is supporting their school. I doubt you'll find a single South Lakes supporter saying it's a bad thing. But we are certainly not seeing people understanding why South Lakes is fighting for more kids.

Believe me, if your child couldn't take the same BASIC classes that other schools offer because there weren't enough kids to offer them, and you had a beautiful school and plenty of space and a good principal, and a great basic curriculum that just needed the new population to make it excellent, you'd be upset that kids from less than three miles away were going ten miles to another school that was enormous. And what if they chose to do that because, say, they hated your school because it had a lot of WASPS and cocaine and snobbery and suicides in it? And what if they did that because they got to have enormous schools with dozens of extra courses available and loads of parents willing to "boost" extracurriculars -- at your school's expense? Wouldn't you fight to get some parity and fight against false accusations?

Clarifier Wrote:
>
> ... Could you please support this with factual
> information? Admissions officers I have spoken
> with from UVA, Duke, Cornell, Madison, and Wm &
> Mary know that the IB diploma is only available in
> IB schools, and that AP diploma is not available
> (it is for those attending foreign schools). They
> also know that an IB course is equivalent to an AP
> course and that takign the courses themselves is,
> de jure, in fact going the most challenging path.
>
--------------------
Most American colleges and universities only grant credit for individual AP courses and individual IB HIGH LEVEL courses, but only rarely but SL courses without a full IB Diploma.

One year IB Standard level course are just not considered to be as rigorous; they are more comparable to "honors" courses in AP schools.

Requirements for earning a certificate in an SL course are very low: You must pass the course and take the end of course test. You don’t have to PASS the test, just take it. Even so, apparently about 85% of all IB exams earn “passing” grades of 4 or higher. Less than one percent of exams worldwide earn a “1” and only about three percent earn a “2.”

“The National Council on the Evaluation of Foreign Educational
Credentials, a committee of the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers (AACRAO), approved the following resolution:
‘Higher level IB courses are generally considered to be on par with the Advanced Placement program courses of the College Entrance Examination Board with reference to course level and degree of difficulty. They may be considered for credit and/or placement on a subject-by-subject basis in accordance with the CEEB-AP policy of the institution. Scores of 4 (passing) through 7 (highest) on the higher levels may be considered for credit’ ” [“How North American Colleges and Universities Recognize the International Baccalaureate Diploma – An Overview.” June 2001.]

To say this in different words: While the two-year High Level IB courses ARE generally considered equivalent to AP courses, the Standard Level (formerly called Subsidiary Level) courses, which most students in an IB school take, are NOT considered equivalent to AP courses by most colleges.

Look up the college of your choice. I have already mentioned Virginia Tech a couple of times; so let's look at UVA this time.

"The College of Arts and Sciences offers possible credit for scores of 5, 6, or 7 on most higher-level IB examinations. We award no credit for standard-level examinations. ... Scores below a 5 on the higher-level exam (no credit will be awarded)" [http://artsandsciences.virginia.edu/college/classes/international_exams.html]

Read this again: UVA gives credit for most HL courses but NO CREDIT for SL EXAMS.

As for AP, UVA will generally grant college credit for a "4" or "5" on just about any AP exam. Details are at . Here is a simplified version:
AP Exam Score Credits
Art (Studio) 4 or 5 3 credits
Art (History) 4 or 5 8 credits
Biology 4 or 5 6 credits
Chemistry 5 or 5 7 credits
Computer Science A 5 3 credits
Computer Science AB 4 or 5 3 credits
Economics (Micro) 5 3 credits
Economics (Macro) 5 3 credits
English (Language) 5 3 credits
English (Literature) 4 or 5 3 credits
Environmental Sciences 4 or 5 3 credits
French Language 4 or 5 3 credits
French Literature 4 or 5 3 credits
German (Language) 4 3 credits
German (Language) 5 6 credits
Government (U.S. Govt. & Politics) 4 or 5 3 credits
Government (Comparative Govt. & Politics) 4 or 5 3 credits
History (United States) 4 or 5 8 credits
History (European) 4 or 5 6 credits
History (World) 4 or 5 3 credits
Latin Literature 4 or 5 3 credits
Latin (Virgil) 4 or 5 3 credits
Calculus (AB) 4 or 5 4 credits
Calculus (BC) 4 or 5 8 credits
Music (Listening and Literature) 4 or 5 3 credits
Music (Theory) 4 or 5 3 credits
Physics B 4 or 5 8 credits
Physics C 4 or 5 4 credits
Physics C (Mechanics) 4 or 5 4 credits
Physics C (Electricity and Magnetism) 4 or 5 8 credits
Psychology 4 or 5 3 credits
Spanish (Language) 4 or 5 6 credits
Spanish (Literature) 4 or 5 6 credits
Statistics 4 or 5 3 credits

Is it really 7:00? I must have nodded off. The last thing I remember, it was 4:44 and I was in the middle of Claifier's post.

I don't think I need to go back and start over. I can probably sum in up in one sentence. IB is better than AP.

Clarifier, you prefer the IB program for your kids. Great, I respect that. I, on the other hand, prefer AP classes for my kids.

RE: a meeting at South Lakes for information? I'd rather be stuck over night in an elevator with SLVerity and More than have to listen to someone at South Lakes push its programs.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity, are you out there? I posted some stats
> on McNair at your request.

Thank you, I got them and passed the conversation on to others. No, we are not looking for the 'holy grail' and I do appreciate your response.

Neen, the informational meeting at South Lakes on the 10th is not an IB meeting. It is an AP and IB meeting being presented by the FCPS Director of Advanced Placement curriculum.

You know was they say about assumptions.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader,
> Are you British? Is that why you always spell
> program as programme? Or is your spell check just
> set on British English?
>
> Just wondering............

----------
I use the spelling used by the International Baccalaureate Organization. See http://www.ibo.org/

Kind of like Barbra Streisand or the Beatles.

[Good luck to you Bulldogs out there. I guess maybe having a school that attracts 8,000 fans to a game isn't all that bad after all!]

-----------

Birdlover, you sure are fixated!

Just so everyone knows, in the real world, Verity and I are good friends. All this back and forth is just our way of having fun. Been doing this since we were kids.

But, Ver, what am I fixated on?


BTW, I tried not to, but I did laugh at your meditation humming last night.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FME Mom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I counted that
> > 81 left South Lakes, and 50 came to South Lakes
> --
> > half of these were from Herndon.
> >
> > I could totally geek out with these numbers and
> > create charts and stuff.... *snort*
> >
> > I heart statistics.
>
> Butler reported to the SL PTA that substantially
> more pupil-placed into SL for academic reasons
> than pupil-placed out for academic reasons.
> Memory says it was +45 but others could verify.


Well that's a nice spin... 42 were placed in for IB Courses and three were placed as they were seniors. I assume this is due to families moving and students wanting to finish their senior year where they spent the first three years of high school. I chalk those up to positive adjustment issues (as opposed to the others cited for adjustment which generally means the students are freaking miserable and loathe the school and its environment) so , yes, 42 students placed into South Lakes for curriculum, while 54 left for curriculum. 14 were for adjustment purposes. The rest are cited as employee or senior.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ,,,I love that everyone is
> supporting their school. ... But we are certainly not seeing people
> understanding why South Lakes is fighting for more
> kids.
>
> Believe me, if your child couldn't take the same
> BASIC classes that other schools offer because
> there weren't enough kids to offer them, and you
> had a beautiful school and plenty of space and a
> good principal, and a great basic curriculum that
> just needed the new population to make it
> excellent, you'd be upset that kids from less than
> three miles away were going ten miles to another
> school ...


------------
Please try again to explain why IF you just had more students THEN South Lakes would be "excellent."

Option One: If you want the same "basic courses" as AP schools, then get rid of IB. The IB Diploma Programme is extremely sequential, especially in math, science, and foreign languages. Diploma Candidates’ classes MUST be taught, even if only a handful of students sign up for them. The school’s entire Master Schedule must revolve around the requirements of the few Diploma Candidates. When resources are limited, as they are in every FCPS school, when IB takes hold, AP courses disappear and the remaining classes are either eliminated or overcrowded.

Option Two: If the South Lakes community wants to keep IB, then stop making excuses. Embrace IB and make it work! Stuart does; so can South Lakes. As I wrote earlier, on paper Stuart and South lakes are nearly identical: Both are IB schools with about the same number of students. The list of IB courses offered is pretty comparable and Stuart offered only one single AP course, in government. Stuart just finished its major renovation.
Demographics:
- FRM: South Lakes 33%; Stuart 51%.
- Black and Hispanic students: South Lakes 36.7%; Stuart 51.2%.
- Limited English students: South Lakes 16.4%; Stuart 36.4%.
- Mobility: South Lakes 17.2%; Stuart had 24.3%
If you attribute a school's poor academic record to the racial, ethnic, and socio-economic composition of its students, you would expect Stuart to have about 50% more SOL failures and more violence. However, the recent data indicate:
- South Lakes had fifteen "serious incidents" and seven weapons cases, Stuart had only four "serious incidents" and two weapons cases.
- South Lakes has from "about the same" to "much higher" failure rates on the SOL exams when compared to Stuart. Examples:
--- On the geometry SOL South Lakes had a 20.4% failure rate ; Stuart had only an 11% failure rate.
--- On the Chemistry SOL South Lakes had a 32.5% failure rate ; Stuart had only a 14.2% failure rate.
- With 232 Limited English students, 7.1% of South Lakes students failed the English writing test. With 535 Limited English students, more than TWICE AS MANY, only 6.3% of Stuart students failed this same test.
As for "high end" students with diverse backgrounds:
- Even with a significantly higher percentage of FRM students, Stuart still has slightly higher IB participation rates for Blacks, for Hispanics, and overall.
- The two schools had identical average SAT scores, 941, for FRM students.
- For Limited English students, the South Lakes SAT average was 811; the Stuart average was 827.
- For students with disabilities, the SAT South Lakes average was 878; the Stuart average was 916.
So if you like IB, find out and emulate what Stuart is doing right - with the same population and more diverse students.

Clarifier said, in his usual kind manner:

>>>>1) To all of you whocare so deeply about AB vs IB -- attend the meeting at South Lakes on December 10 about the IB program. Many of your questions will be addressed. Otherwise, don't spread misinformation as many of you are doing now.<<<<

Yes, much selling of the IB program will go on at that meeting. Much will also be omitted. FCPS hopes that you will leave that meeting secure in your full support of IB and South Lakes and you will spread the IB message, far and wide.

>>>1) (Again? Did you take IB math?) Re "Also, what do the IB kids do in 10th grade if they took algebra in 7th, geo in 8th, etc.?" They move it up a year. My son did that at South Lakes. Took the IB exam in 11th grade (got a 6) and is going on to an online multivariable calculus course now. IB in Fairfax Co. allows for that, contrary to what some might think.<<<

FCPS permits students to take an online math course? Big whoop. Could they stop them?

>>>3) Just like any school around here (you don't get multicalc at ANY school unless enough kids want it, for example). Ask Bruce Butler, or, better yet, ask about this on the 10th.

BUZZZ, wrong again. Under the new consortium model at least one AP school in each consortium will off Multi var and linear algebra. It has nothing to do with numbers at that high school. But some consortiums have 4 out of 5 schools offering those math courses at their AP schools.

>>> You see a little LESS THAN SEVEN PERCENT OF FCPS STUDENTS IN IB SCHOOLS EARN THE FULL IB DIPLOMA.<<<<

Good grief. Why are we bothering with this program? It's so expensive, not good for low income students, gives less college credit, and so few actually completely the program. What's the point? Why don't we have AP at every school and maybe one or two IB magnets for those kids who might get the full diploma and/or want to go to college in Europe? Why must so many low income schools be stuck with this program?

FME Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well that's a nice spin... 42 were placed in for
> IB Courses and three were placed as they were
> seniors. I assume this is due to families moving
> and students wanting to finish their senior year
> where they spent the first three years of high
> school. I chalk those up to positive adjustment
> issues (as opposed to the others cited for
> adjustment which generally means the students are
> freaking miserable and loathe the school and its
> environment) so , yes, 42 students placed into
> South Lakes for curriculum, while 54 left for
> curriculum. 14 were for adjustment purposes. The
> rest are cited as employee or senior.

Sorry, apparently I wasn't clear that was a net in-migration of +45, i.e. 45 more move in than moved out by pupil placement for academic reasons. That's for this year. Please adress anydisparities to Mr. Butler.

Clarifier,
Why aren't all of our schools teaching kids to write before College? They certainly should be.

My son went to TJ, also loaded up on AP classes, took every AP science and math class. Went to UVA on a full merit scholarship, also a Rodham scholar. He graduated early with 3 engineering majors. ON the GRE exams he had a perfect score on math and a perfect score on writing.

Many engineers can write well. AP schools also train them to be able to do real math and real science so that they can do well in engineering and hard sciences.

My son would have hated IB and I am glad he wasn't stuck in an IB school.

I am glad that your son learned to read and write well at South Lakes. Different strokes for different folks.

Bulldog,
You are right to be skeptical about grandfathering. When the school board votes in February, they may well change their minds on how many grades will be grandfathered. During the vote, many things change.

It's not over until it's over.

One more question,

why would FCPS care about wasting bond money? it's a bottomless pit of funds because they are ALWAYS approved. Nothing to worry about.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One more question,
>
> why would FCPS care about wasting bond money?
> it's a bottomless pit of funds because they are
> ALWAYS approved. Nothing to worry about.


kind of like the way you are a bottomless pit of garbage? Piss off! bonds are NOT there for your pleasure petty Cash!

>>>>Butler reported to the SL PTA that substantially more pupil-placed into SL for academic reasons than pupil-placed out for academic reasons<<<

That may, or may not, be true. The kids who leave Madison for Marshall say it's for the IB program but for most of them it's a social problem at Madison. They can't ask to transfer because they don't fit in at Madison and have no friends, or have gotten involve with a group at Marshall, or because their grades have gone down the tubes and their parents want them to try another school, or because they came out of the closet and want to start over with a new peer group, or they want to get away from an abusive boyfriend, or they've gotten into the drinking/drugging crowd and their parents think a different school will change that, get them away from the 'bad influences'. I know kids who have left Madison for Marshall for each of those reasons. None of those are acceptable reasons for transfer, so they say they want to transfer for academic reasons, to the IB program. They have to use that reason for transfer. Unless they have been expelled from a school, they aren't assigned to another school for social reasons or 'adjustment' reasons.

Pupil placements - there is net migration out of South Lakes... if you doubt it review the link to the report to the school board posted earlier today.

>>>>Piss off! bonds are NOT there for your pleasure petty Cash!<<<

Tell it to the public and to FCPS. Bonds are ALWAYS approved with 75% to 80% of the public voting for them.

Here it is...

the school board has a report on pupil placements on it's website -
http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/Public?OpenFrameSet

it's on the right under reports to the school board. it shows who came to a school and why

>>>253 kids transferred to take AP
341 kids transferred to take IB<<<

I am not surprised that more students in IB schools couldn't transfer to AP schools. Many of them don't have parents who can drive them back and forth to school, until they reach 16 and can have their own car to drive themselves. Their families cannot afford that. Since IB is in the poorest schools, it's no wonder that fewer of them have the knowledge, or income, necessary to transfer. They're stuck. While AP students who are having social problems at their school can use IB as an excuse to leave. They can also afford to get there.

Looking at the board docs I total 42 kids INTO South Lakes for curriculum reasons and 64 transferred OUT for curriculum reasons. I only added students who transferred in and out for either "AP curriculum" Or "curriculum" reasons. I was not a math major, but it seems that more transfered OUT for curriculum reasons than those who transfered IN.

FME mom,
I think the "adjustment" placements are students who have been expelled from one high school and placed in another.

Interesting blog:
http://www.examiner.com/blogs/Sharp_Sticks/2007/12/7/Fairfax-School-Boards-bullying-problem

>>>This issue is bigger than one aggrieved parent. Gibson is the mastermind behind the controversial Western County redistricting, and has reportedly cut a deal with other Board members to exempt some areas from the controversial redistricting.

But a School Board member who doesn’t follow the law and the board’s own rules of conduct has no business making life-altering decisions about other people’s children.<<<<

Wow!