I have NEVER said that poor kids didn't face more challenges than rich kids. Of course they do! Their parents cannot afford to get them tutors, nor can they teach the children themselves, like so many parents do. But these kids need help LONG before they are in high school. Since they can't get tutors for math outside of school, they need REAL math in elementary school. I've yet to meet a parent who likes "Everyday Math", and it's been a dismal failure across the country. Our school board knew that, yet they adopted it anyway. It's been awful for our poor kids. It's terrible for ALL kids, but many parents hire tutors, or send their children to Kumon math, enroll them in math camps, or they are tutored in Chinese and Korean schools on the weekends. Most of our poor kids do not have those resources. That's why they need something better than "Everyday Math" in school. The same with reading. They need REAL reading programs, not that silly 'Whole Language". Again, they don't have parents who can help them to learn to read, to correct their spelling, to edit their papers. They need to learn those things in school, but they aren't. They need to learn phonics to learn to read, yet many of our low income schools are still not using phonics!

Our SB refuses to force any school to use proven teaching methods that work, and then they scratch their heads over why our achievement gap continues. Duh. It continues because middle class and upper middle class parents are supplementing their children's education. Poor kids don't have those resources, they need to be taught IN SCHOOL. If they get a good foundation in elementary school, they won't have a problem competing in high school. As long as our schools refuse to use PROVEN methods of teaching, particularly in poorer schools, they'll continue to do poorly in school, be disruptive, drop out, etc. They simply are not getting a decent education at the less affluent schools in Reston. That needs to change before South Lakes can change.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> we would welcome the McNair students with open
> arms if they come. Would you accept them at your
> school if the county sent them your way? Or would
> you complain that they were somehow ruining your
> school? I submit that it would be a baby step
> down, or perhaps not a step down at all.


Will they be wearing big "McNair" signs when they come in the building? How will you know which kids went to McNair, or any elementary school for that matter? I hope that any new students next year will just blend in with the rest of the student population at any school and not be outed as the new kids who were forced to come.

Why can't portion of Crossfield be shifted to South Lakes. Crossfield is much more
closer to Foris or McNair and IS already feeding South Lakes.

Is there some deal making behind the scene? Where are the SL parents looking for 'advantaged' kids? To make you morally sound, how about portion of McNair to show your big heart and portion or Crossfield to satisfy your agenda?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SL,
> > Since one of the goals is lowering student
> > population at Wesfield, how would you do that
> > without involving any students from McNair?
>
> Easy, shift students from East Floris to SL
> (closest proximity) in place of East McNair. Then
> McNair is not an island. When Coppermine is
> built, send those kids to Herndon, since it is
> expected to decline in the out years. Westfield's
> overcrowding can be addressed further if necessary
> in conjunction with Centreville, which is also
> under-enrolled.

I think that Christine was wrong to discuss her child and his problems in her campaign. Not against the rules, not illegal, but bad judgement.

I also think that no school employee or official should be discussing a particular student in a public forum. "She said it first," is no excuse. This was totally inappropriate and I am disappointed in Mr. Gibson for not standing up and admitting that he was wrong. I had thought that he might possibly just be a straightforward person with different values and goals than mine. Now I see that there is no possibility of such a thing.




SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen, I'm not condoning what Stu did, but I think
> it's a big nothing-burger. I personally know of
> more than one forum in which Christine publicly
> spoke
> about her son's special needs.
>
> You really need to let Christine fight her own
> battles.

Lowering student population at Westfield is a trumped up excuse. There is no reason to lower enrollment at Westfield except to protece Langley from giving up any of their advantaged students on their 10 mile bus ride.

It is also an excuse to remove a Title 1 school from Westfield. As a Floris/ Westfield parent, I would like McNair AND Floris to stay with Westfield.


Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SL,
> Since one of the goals is lowering student
> population at Wesfield, how would you do that
> without involving any students from McNair?

SLVerity Wrote
--------------
"The Newsweek list ranks the top 5%, or 1,350 schools. South Lakes is near the top 3%."

People bought their houses in West County area for Chantilly and Westfield HS. Can you deny the fact that, South Lakes is ranked near the bottom within the county? Well, South Lake is near the top 3%? Are you sure? If that's the case, that means something is very wrong in this country's educational system. People there are paying taxes for top 1% school not for 3%(with ? mark) school?

The point I try to make is, if SL is so good, why the SL PTA is so desperate? The only thing they did not do was sending cheerleaders to the county meeting.

Instead of forcing students to move to SL HS, why can't the SL PTA lobby the county to find alternative options such as setting up great programs to attract students? "Attract", not "Force".

By the way, why does SL PTA not to lobby the county to move rich kids from the nearby Lanley and Madison into SL? That would truely improve the socio-economic balance in SL. By the way, please look at the fact, those two HSs are truely over capacity by 5%. And even based on County's own fact sheets, Chantilly and Westfield are not over capacity at all.

SLVerity, instead of blindly supporting the agenda of SL PTA and Gibson, why don't you review all the facts? Why parents in Reston rather send their kids to private schools instead of sending them to SL HS, a Reston district HS, if SL HS is truely as good as you said? Why does the county force students from Herndon area riding heavy traffic in the moring, taking much travel time, taking much accident risk, losing sleep time to cross the toll road to attend a HS that is not within their boundaries at all? Why? Is this all for the sake of improving test score in SL HS so Gibson can look good and be re-elected again and again?

SLVerity, can you talk to the parents in Herndon area, ask them if they are willing to send their kids to a school that they don't belong to? Don't you understand that, a lot of parents will find different ways to not send their kids to SL HS? Don't you understand that Westfield will be under capacity by 23% in 4 years and a lot of parents can utilize the pupil placement to put their children back to Westfield taking AP classes(SL HS does not have AP), or simply move away. Don't you understand that, each year, your deal SL HS lost about 80 studens via pupil placement?

SLVerity, don't get me wrong, SL is a great school. But don't forget, kids in Chantilly and Westfield want to stay in their schools, they don't want to go to SL HS. What do you feel if your kids are forced to move to another HS that they don't feel connected to at all?

Put yourself in other people's positions giving out opinions? Do you think it's right for the SL PTA to send kids to the meeting so that they can represent 20% of the comments? What do you think it would happen if Chantilly and Westfield PTA counter that by sending 5000 kids to give comments?

SLVerity, you should question the tactic of the county. The county is forcing paretns to fight among themselves. I dare to say that, after this mess, a lot of parents in West County will have a very negative feeling about SL HS.

SLVerity, do you know that Floris ES has gone through 7 redistricting since 1998? How do you feel if you kids need to move schools 7 times within 9 years? Do you understand that, a lot of students in Floris and McNair are from new immigrants and low income families. They have no resources, no connections and have no clue what is happening? Do you think the County will mess around with Floris ES if it's located in Great Fall? Can you honestly say that, the county's act is without bias, is ethical, is fair to all races, is truely with good intention without self serving purpose?

toSLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote
> --------------
> The point I try to make is, if SL is so good, why
> the SL PTA is so desperate? The only thing they
> did not do was sending cheerleaders to the county
> meeting.
>
> Instead of forcing students to move to SL HS, why
> can't the SL PTA lobby the county to find
> alternative options such as setting up great
> programs to attract students? "Attract", not
> "Force".
>
> By the way, why does SL PTA not to lobby the
> county to move rich kids from the nearby Lanley
> and Madison into SL? That would truely improve the
> socio-economic balance in SL. By the way, please
> look at the fact, those two HSs are truely over
> capacity by 5%. And even based on County's own
> fact sheets, Chantilly and Westfield are not over
> capacity at all.
>
> SLVerity, instead of blindly supporting the agenda
> of SL PTA and Gibson, why don't you review all the
> facts? Why parents in Reston rather send their
> kids to private schools instead of sending them to
> SL HS, a Reston district HS, if SL HS is truely as
> good as you said? Why does the county force
> students from Herndon area riding heavy traffic in
> the moring, taking much travel time, taking much
> accident risk, losing sleep time to cross the toll
> road to attend a HS that is not within their
> boundaries at all? Why? Is this all for the sake
> of improving test score in SL HS so Gibson can
> look good and be re-elected again and again?
>
> SLVerity, can you talk to the parents in Herndon
> area, ask them if they are willing to send their
> kids to a school that they don't belong to? Don't
> you understand that, a lot of parents will find
> different ways to not send their kids to SL HS?
> Don't you understand that Westfield will be under
> capacity by 23% in 4 years and a lot of parents
> can utilize the pupil placement to put their
> children back to Westfield taking AP classes(SL HS
> does not have AP), or simply move away. Don't you
> understand that, each year, your deal SL HS lost
> about 80 studens via pupil placement?
>
> SLVerity, don't get me wrong, SL is a great
> school. But don't forget, kids in Chantilly and
> Westfield want to stay in their schools, they
> don't want to go to SL HS. What do you feel if
> your kids are forced to move to another HS that
> they don't feel connected to at all?
>
> Put yourself in other people's positions giving
> out opinions? Do you think it's right for the SL
> PTA to send kids to the meeting so that they can
> represent 20% of the comments? What do you think
> it would happen if Chantilly and Westfield PTA
> counter that by sending 5000 kids to give
> comments?
>
> SLVerity, do you know that Floris ES has gone
> through 7 redistricting since 1998? How do you
> feel if you kids need to move schools 7 times
> within 9 years? Do you understand that, a lot of
> students in Floris and McNair are from new
> immigrants and low income families. They have no
> resources, no connections and have no clue what is
> happening? Do you think the County will mess
> around with Floris ES if it's located in Great
> Fall? Can you honestly say that, the county's act
> is without bias, is ethical, is fair to all races,
> is truely with good intention without self serving
> purpose?


You've fleshed out my thoughts very well on the matter. As a member of the McNair community, I have no problems with SL HS - only if we were already a part of that school district. If we were, we'd want to stay and not be moved to Westfield. As it is, we are happy with Westfield, have already sunk deep roots, and just don't want to be uprooted.

As for inviting the students of Chantilly, Oakton and Herndon HS to the meetings, I've been hard at work making sure that this happens. Their voices are the most important that the School Board and parents need to hear, and we can expect many more on December 19.

SLVerity, I appreciate very much your thoughts and concerns, and trust that you have a good feel for what SL wants. So I have a question to ask you,if you don't mind answering:

Can you approximate what percentage of SL parents (including PTA and SL school administrators) and SL students would like to gain only the McNair ES and Madison island?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FME Mom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ... I have a solution, but it would involve a
> FULL
> > REDISTRICTING EFFORT as is what should have
> > happened in the first place. We can spread the
> > poor around! ...
>
> Shouldn't we make this a COUNTY-WIDE effort?
>
> Based on FCPS's recent decree that some of our
> current high school enrollments are "too small" or
> "too big" this is logically where we are headed:
> - If high schools are to have enrollments between
> 1700 and 2300, Stuart needs to be slightly
> enlarged; Marshall either needs to be enlarged by
> 200 student capacity or made into a middle school
> plus a Center.
> - High schools and middle schools should have
> matched-up boundaries. Thus middle schools should
> have enrollments between 850 and 1150. (Perhaps
> Thoreau could be turned into an elementary
> school.) Those middle school buildings with
> capacity over 1150 would host GT and Special Ed
> Centers.
> - All school buildings with capacities of 2550
> and over should be converted to secondary schools
> (Mt Vernon, Hayfield, South County, Lake Braddock,
> Robinson, Chantilly, and Westfield.)
> - Even with 2300 high school students and 1150
> middle schoolers, Lake Braddock and Robinson would
> have excess capacity to host Academies.


Yeah, that was my point -- it should be a county wide evaluation.

possiblenewkid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Will they be wearing big "McNair" signs when they
> come in the building? How will you know which
> kids went to McNair, or any elementary school for
> that matter? I hope that any new students next
> year will just blend in with the rest of the
> student population at any school and not be outed
> as the new kids who were forced to come.


No, they sure won't blend in. All new kids that weren't at Hughes are going to stand out like sore thumbs, and the cliques have already been formed.

WestfieldMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> It is also an excuse to remove a Title 1 school
> from Westfield. As a Floris/ Westfield parent, I
> would like McNair AND Floris to stay with
> Westfield.

Do you know why they would want to remove a Title I school from Westfield? I hope that is not the case. What purpose would it serve?

FME Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> possiblenewkid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Will they be wearing big "McNair" signs when
> they
> > come in the building? How will you know which
> > kids went to McNair, or any elementary school
> for
> > that matter? I hope that any new students next
> > year will just blend in with the rest of the
> > student population at any school and not be
> outed
> > as the new kids who were forced to come.
>
>
> No, they sure won't blend in. All new kids that
> weren't at Hughes are going to stand out like sore
> thumbs, and the cliques have already been formed.


My kids moved to SLHS and Hughes in the middle (as Soph. and 8th grader, respectively) and felt that there were no real cliques and were easily brought in.

Sports and chorus helped, but -- not sure what the 90s and/or 80s were like, FME mom -- the kids say one of the great things about SLHS is the lack of cliques.

The SLHS kids who have posted say the same thing.

Padre writes....My kids moved to SLHS and Hughes in the middle (as Soph. and 8th grader, respectively) and felt that there were no real cliques and were easily brought in.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glad your kids did so well.....I know a a kid who had both parents run over by a truck and things worked out okay for him too!!!

Kids are resilient!!

> Gibson wrote:
> Why is South Lake ranked 892 nationwide and
> ranked bottom in Fairfax county after all these
> years? I have no clue. Don't ask me. Ask the
> Fairfax School Board.
>
--------------

The Newsweek ratings are merely the result of Washington Post writer Jay Mathews’s annual Challenge Index. He simply adds the number of AP and IB tests taken in a school and divides this number by the number of students who graduate that year.

Some of the problems in using this single indicator to judge schools:

1. The Challenge Index provides no quality cut of how well students perform on the exams. If kids take a lot of tests and fail every one of them, the school would appear to be excellent. It would appear that this methodology overvalues the exam culture,

2. Jay counts the number of EXAMS taken, not the number of COURSES taken. Students may take AP exams without ever taking the course. This also artificially inflates the ranking of those IB schools in which students take both IB and AP tests for the same subject, and thus are counted twice.

3. The Challenge Index is only counting high-end students who take AP and IB exams. It says little about its success in educating diverse populations. For example, there is no indication that at South Lakes Black and Hispanic students have only a 20% IB participation rate while Whites have a 57% participation rate.

4. FCPS requires every student taking an AP or IB course to take the exam to receive an extra .5 grade point - and FCPS pays for the exams. If you have no experience outside of FCPS, you may not realize that in the rest of the world most students pay for their own exams. It may well be argued that FCPS taxpayers should not be paying for the exams of what people on this forum seem to call “advantaged” students. Yet as a result, because Fairfax County is about the biggest purchaser of AP and IB exams in the world and because of the sheer number of students taking the exams, ALL FCPS schools are rather highly ranked in this “Challenge Index,” even if they have horrendous rates of SOL failures, dropouts, and violence.
[Since taxpayers are paying for the AP and IB exams, it would seem reasonable to let us see the scores by-subject, by-school like we do for the SOLs. If it became known, for example, that your school’s AP Biology students did well on the exam but most of the AP Chemistry students failed, that would not only cause far more students to sign up for Bio but also lead people to think the Chem teacher should be replaced. Thus it is highly unlikely that FCPS will ever allow us to have access to such data.]

5. Because Jay divides the number of tests taken by the number of GRADUATES, all other factors being equal, a school with a high dropout rate appears to be a “better” school than one with a lot of graduates.

6. Jay gives as much weight to exams for Standard (or Subsidiary) level (SL) IB courses as to IB High Level (HL) and to AP courses. There are significant differences between SL and HL. To GREATLY over-simplify, SL courses are one year long and HL courses are normally two-year courses. Think of them in terms of “Honors” compared to “AP” courses, or A levels and O levels in the British system, or OWLS and NEWTS if you are a Harry Potter fan. Individual college policies differ, and often individual departments within the same college may have different policies regarding SL courses, but few colleges consider SL courses to be in the same league as HL and AP and few colleges give SL courses anywhere near the recognition that they do to AP and IB-HL courses. At Virginia Tech for example, "Through Advanced Placement examinations ... Credits allowed for advanced placement are shown as transfer hours on Hokie SPA. These credits, not to exceed 38 semester hours, are counted as hours passed." Similarly, "Up to 38 semester credit hours may be granted for those earning the IB diploma, and up to 30 semester credit hours for those without the IB diploma." HOWEVER,"A Maximum of 3 semester credits (or 4 with lab) from SUBSIDIARY LEVEL courses are allowed, but ONLY with an IB Diploma." [capitalization added]

No educator uses any single number to “rank” a school. Other performance data ARE readily available. As other posters have noted, No Child Left Behind forces to schools to reveal their success in educating various subgroups. NLCB also includes data on dropouts, violence, and other data most people would include as measures of how “good” a school is.

So can we please stop referring to the Newsweek rankings?

Dear toSLVerity and Berdhuis,

I don't have time to answer all of your questions, but I have answered them before on this forum. If you go back and read my posts you will see where we parents of SL are coming from. I think the point that makes me the most angry in all of this is the past mistakes of the School Board which put SL in the position it is in today. Because the County concentrated public housing here (we are not a town and could not control it, despite what Neen will try to tell you), over time the perception built that our school was not a good school (at the time an AP school, BTW). It was not fair, but it was the case. As newer developments were built in the vicinity of South Lakes, they were not added to our pyramid, which could have used more students to bring the school to capacity, because the SB did not have the stomach to fight the parents who opposed going to SL.

Westfield HS did not have to be so big, because the County could have easily districted FLoris to our pyramid before Westfield was even built. They should have done it then, but they knew their would be opposition and the SB was cowardly.

We have seen our boundary whittled away over the years - I've explained it all before. I've lived here for 24 years, and when I moved here SL was one of the top schools in the County--you could say I bought my home here because of the school. It could still be, if the SB had only done the right thing.

South Lakes is on an upward trajectory. SAT scores had the highest jump of any school in the County last year. Oakton's and Madison's scores went down significantly. Was it just a one-year blip. Maybe, but I've been in this community for years and can personally tell you that the school is doing very well. Bruce Butler is implementing programs modeled on other schools that have had success with disadvantaged students. One of his former APs is now principal at Langston Hughes and they are working very closely to target at risk students. Eventually, their strategy will trickle down to the elementary level.

Meanwhile, the middle class students are doing as well as middle class students in surrounding schools. Yours would be no exception.

As to SL students attending the meetings, perhaps you should consider that their presence was in response to some pretty ugly things said about their school at the first meeting. They are proud of their school and want to show it. There were also Chantilly students at the meeting, and the Connection Newspapers said they received extra credit in their government class for attending. Though, I applaud the Chantilly students for coming I'd like to add that the SL students received no such compensation.

With regard to the Newsweek List (Challenge Index) this is a direct quote from the index, "All of the schools on the list have an index of at least 1.000; they are in the top 5 percent of public schools measured this way." In the 2007 Index (2006 stats) South Lakes ranked at 800 out of 1300 in the top 5%. There were 27,000 schools considered. 800 divided by 27,000 = 2.9%. Any questions, email Jay Mathews at the Washington Post.

Wait until the 2008 index is published. You will see SL improve, probably significantly, because even more IB tests were taken last year.

VA Driver says

"Glad your kids did so well.....I know a a kid who had both parents run over by a truck and things worked out okay for him too!!!

Kids are resilient!!"

_____

Is this really necessary? What kind of ridiculous point are you trying to make here? Is this story supposed to shock us? VA Driver, I think you made that story up while you were driving that SUV of yours. Get a life and try out a hybrid.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> 2. Jay counts the number of EXAMS taken, not the
> number of COURSES taken. Students may take AP
> exams without ever taking the course. This also
> artificially inflates the ranking of those IB
> schools in which students take both IB and AP
> tests for the same subject, and thus are counted
> twice.

IB schools are actually penalized in his rankings, because kids taking HL IB two-year courses take only one exam, unlike AP courses which are given annually. Thus, my IB diploma child took less exams than if she had been at an AP school taking similarly challenging courses.
>
> 3. The Challenge Index is only counting high-end
> students who take AP and IB exams. It says little
> about its success in educating diverse
> populations. For example, there is no indication
> that at South Lakes Black and Hispanic students
> have only a 20% IB participation rate while Whites
> have a 57% participation rate.

Jay has added the Equity in Excellence ranking to address those very issues.

>
Even if they have
> horrendous rates of SOL failures, dropouts, and
> violence.

What FFX County schools has horrendous rates of those?


> So can we please stop referring to the Newsweek
> rankings?

I agree that the Newsweek ranking should not carry the weight that many here have given it, but please, let's not try to minimize South Lakes' inclusion on the list relative to other schools in the County, just to serve your anti-IB agenda. And, yes, I do know who you are.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2007 11:59AM by SLVerity.

SLprnt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VA Driver says
>
> "Glad your kids did so well.....I know a a kid who
> had both parents run over by a truck and things
> worked out okay for him too!!!
>
> Kids are resilient!!"
>
> _____
>
> Is this really necessary? What kind of ridiculous
> point are you trying to make here? Is this story
> supposed to shock us? VA Driver, I think you made
> that story up while you were driving that SUV of
> yours. Get a life and try out a hybrid.

Don't worry, VADriver made our point for us. His and all other kids coming to South Lakes will be just fine.

VaDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Padre writes....My kids moved to SLHS and Hughes
> in the middle (as Soph. and 8th grader,
> respectively) and felt that there were no real
> cliques and were easily brought in.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------
> Glad your kids did so well.....I know a a kid who
> had both parents run over by a truck and things
> worked out okay for him too!!!
>
> Kids are resilient!!


My kids have read these posts, including yours and your stiff-necked comrades, and confirmed that there are knuckleheads out there, yet the world is a pretty good place and one has to keep walking.

Is that resilience?....perhaps. Are you a zoron? Most def.

> Padre writes....My kids moved to SLHS and Hughes
> in the middle (as Soph. and 8th grader,
> respectively) and felt that there were no real
> cliques and were easily brought in.
>
>gald your kids did so well.....I know a a kid who
> had both parents run over by a truck and things
> worked out okay for him too!!!
>
> Kids are resilient!!


My kids have read these posts, including yours and your stiff-necked comrades, and confirmed that there are knuckleheads out there, yet the world is a pretty good place and one has to keep walking.

Is that resilience?....perhaps. Are you a zoron? Most def.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Padre, What the hell is a 'ZORON"? Is that gang talk?

http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/news/2007/dec/05/boundary-debate-continues/

second meeting more revealing

Did anyone see the article on AP participation in the Post a few days ago?

Why did FCPS look so bad compared with Montgomery County?

Are Neen and Christine the same person?

Just curious-

VaDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Padre writes....My kids moved to SLHS and Hughes
>
> > in the middle (as Soph. and 8th grader,
> > respectively) and felt that there were no real
> > cliques and were easily brought in.
> >
> >gald your kids did so well.....I know a a kid who
>
> > had both parents run over by a truck and things
>
> > worked out okay for him too!!!
> >
> > Kids are resilient!!
>
>
> My kids have read these posts, including yours and
> your stiff-necked comrades, and confirmed that
> there are knuckleheads out there, yet the world is
> a pretty good place and one has to keep walking.
>
> Is that resilience?....perhaps. Are you a zoron?
> Most def.
> --------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------
> Padre, What the hell is a 'ZORON"? Is that gang
> talk?



Ultimate insult at TJ

Lee Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did anyone see the article on AP participation in
> the Post a few days ago?
>
> Why did FCPS look so bad compared with Montgomery
> County?
>
> Are Neen and Christine the same person?
>
> Just curious-

I did not read that the article made Fairfax look bad. For example,

FTA: "The Post analysis also found that black students in Montgomery and Fairfax succeed in AP testing at a much higher rate than black students in other districts with comparable or greater numbers of black students. African Americans in the two districts earned passing scores at a rate of more than eight tests for every 100 black students enrolled in high school, which is roughly comparable to the performance of white students in the program as a whole."

So actually they are about the same. They passed a 1,000 test passed benchmark. Perhaps they have more black students than Fairfax. Since we don't have the numbers, we can't compare. But if we look at pass rates, they appear to be the same.

FCPS has about 30,000 more kids. It was the chart that blew me away. All the other school districts showed significant increases and FCPS was down like 12%.

I think the chart only appeared in the print edition.

Lee Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FCPS has about 30,000 more kids. It was the chart
> that blew me away. All the other school districts
> showed significant increases and FCPS was down
> like 12%.
>
> I think the chart only appeared in the print
> edition.

Yes, I was looking online. No chart.

VaDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Padre writes....My kids moved to SLHS and Hughes
>
> > in the middle (as Soph. and 8th grader,
> > respectively) and felt that there were no real
> > cliques and were easily brought in.
> >
> >gald your kids did so well.....I know a a kid who
>
> > had both parents run over by a truck and things
>
> > worked out okay for him too!!!
> >
> > Kids are resilient!!
>
>
> My kids have read these posts, including yours and
> your stiff-necked comrades, and confirmed that
> there are knuckleheads out there, yet the world is
> a pretty good place and one has to keep walking.
>
> Is that resilience?....perhaps. Are you a zoron?
> Most def.
> --------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------
> Padre, What the hell is a 'ZORON"? Is that gang
> talk?


_____________

VA Driver, stop inhaling those fumes from that gas guzzling monster truck you drive. You know damn well what SL Padre meant. And no, its not gang language. you wouldn'd know gang language if it smacked you in the head. YOU MORON. Do you get it NOW?

SLVerity,
I do think those SL kids are nice kids. They were polite in the meeting and I do understand their desire to be accepted by the public. It's the SL PTA's tactic that I disagree. The thing that upsets most of us is that, the SL PTA proposed different options to the county, first, they wanted crossfield and fox mill, then they abandoned that option and wanted fox mill, floris, oak hill, navy and they don't want McNair(I guess they were not impressed by the scores in McNare). Who give them the authority to provide options and have their picks, while the public has no options but the 4 proposed by the county?
As I have written to the county many times, instead of providing options to force students to be redistricted, why can't the county find creative solutions to ATTRACT students to SL? Also, the county is ignoring the fact that, Metro will reach Reston and there are new development with 3000 plus homes coming out. In the near future, SL will be over capacity. By then, what do they do? They will kick the Herndon kids back to Westfield, especially by 2012, Westfield will only use up to 77% of the capacity. Can you see it? They are treating kids like a soccer balls that can be kicked around.
If you looked at the South County redistricting, it was a nightmare and 700 kids were moved from one school to the other and after a year, they were moved back to the previous schools.
As responsible residents of Fairfax county, should we question and investigate the incompetence of the county officials who are wasting our tax payers money?
Last note for you, why does SL PTA not to propose to the county to draw students from Lanley and Madison, which are over capacity by 5%, instead, they are going after the people in Herndon who have the least resources to fight back?
I have been living in the Floris ES district for 14 years now, and I have gone through all the 7 redistricting. We have had enough and this time, we will do anything in our power to fight back. Yes, we might lose. But we always have the freedom to move to other better counties.
Take care.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As to SL students attending the meetings, perhaps
> you should consider that their presence was in
> response to some pretty ugly things said about
> their school at the first meeting. They are proud
> of their school and want to show it

You know, my son (Westfield Freshman) made the comment to me after the first meeting, "Papa, that was the first time I've seen adults act like animals." And he was right, many did.

It's good that South Lakes students show up at these meetings; it's good that all students show up at these meetings. Their voices are the ones that need to be heeded, and I hope we all can agree to get them involved as much as possible. The students from Chantilly, Oakton, Westfield, Herndon, Madison and South Lakes all should be heard.

toSLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Hi. We absolutely think that Madison and Langley should have been included, but since they are not, we have to work with what is included. Speaking for myself, I think we should not have McNair split between SL and HHS, for the reasons I stated above. It's just too much of a burden to ask the high schools with the most challenged students to take on even more. That is why we would prefer to have students that are not challenged. Again, we are not asking that any of our challenged students be sent elsewhere, and we embrace them.

Your gripes are with the School Board, not the parents of SL. Also, know that development around the metro will yield very few, if any, school-aged students, so don't count on that as a source of students. We've already done the projections and have discovered that families in this area just don't gravitate to urban (high-rise) developments.

VaDriver: "Padre, What the hell is a 'ZORON"? Is that gang
talk?"


Padre: "Ultimate insult at TJ"

_____________________________________
So true, how at every school, certain expressions become popular. What is it at
South Lakes? Chesse it, the cops?

> Speaking for myself, I think we should not have McNair
> split between SL and HHS, for the reasons I stated
> above. It's just too much of a burden to ask the
> high schools with the most challenged students to
> take on even more. That is why we would prefer to
> have students that are not challenged.

I don't understand why bringing in motivated, recently immigrated families into South Lakes would be a burden. I live right smack in the middle of them - they are my friends, and can vouch for their drive and intelligence.

Their children's early years are lacking in English skills, as evidenced by McNair ES Language test scores, but they rapidly catch up and become the shining stars of Rachel Carson. I know them and play with them.

Surely the folks on the School Board and at South Lakes can see this; all they have to do is listen to us and get to know us.

I resent that anyone would think that we would be a burden. This is arrogant, and the School Board and some folks from South Lakes seem to bear this affliction.

Has anyone studied when the old geezers in Reston will start to expire or move on?

I am told this is the reason for the huge decline in enrollment. Seems like the empty nests must turn over at some point.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear toSLVerity and Berdhuis,
>
> I don't have time to answer all of your questions,
> but I have answered them before on this forum. If
> you go back and read my posts you will see where
> we parents of SL are coming from. I think the
> point that makes me the most angry in all of this
> is the past mistakes of the School Board which put
> SL in the position it is in today. Because the
> County concentrated public housing here (we are
> not a town and could not control it, despite what
> Neen will try to tell you), over time the
> perception built that our school was not a good
> school (at the time an AP school, BTW). It was
> not fair, but it was the case. As newer
> developments were built in the vicinity of South
> Lakes, they were not added to our pyramid, which
> could have used more students to bring the school
> to capacity, because the SB did not have the
> stomach to fight the parents who opposed going to
> SL.
>
> Westfield HS did not have to be so big, because
> the County could have easily districted FLoris to
> our pyramid before Westfield was even built. They
> should have done it then, but they knew their
> would be opposition and the SB was cowardly.
>
> We have seen our boundary whittled away over the
> years - I've explained it all before. I've lived
> here for 24 years, and when I moved here SL was
> one of the top schools in the County--you could
> say I bought my home here because of the school.
> It could still be, if the SB had only done the
> right thing.
>
> South Lakes is on an upward trajectory. SAT
> scores had the highest jump of any school in the
> County last year. Oakton's and Madison's scores
> went down significantly. Was it just a one-year
> blip. Maybe, but I've been in this community for
> years and can personally tell you that the school
> is doing very well. Bruce Butler is implementing
> programs modeled on other schools that have had
> success with disadvantaged students. One of his
> former APs is now principal at Langston Hughes and
> they are working very closely to target at risk
> students. Eventually, their strategy will trickle
> down to the elementary level.
>
> Meanwhile, the middle class students are doing as
> well as middle class students in surrounding
> schools. Yours would be no exception.
>
> As to SL students attending the meetings, perhaps
> you should consider that their presence was in
> response to some pretty ugly things said about
> their school at the first meeting. They are proud
> of their school and want to show it. There were
> also Chantilly students at the meeting, and the
> Connection Newspapers said they received extra
> credit in their government class for attending.
> Though, I applaud the Chantilly students for
> coming I'd like to add that the SL students
> received no such compensation.
>
> With regard to the Newsweek List (Challenge Index)
> this is a direct quote from the index, "All of the
> schools on the list have an index of at least
> 1.000; they are in the top 5 percent of public
> schools measured this way." In the 2007 Index
> (2006 stats) South Lakes ranked at 800 out of 1300
> in the top 5%. There were 27,000 schools
> considered. 800 divided by 27,000 = 2.9%. Any
> questions, email Jay Mathews at the Washington
> Post.
>
> Wait until the 2008 index is published. You will
> see SL improve, probably significantly, because
> even more IB tests were taken last year.


I don't want to argue if SL HS is a good school. It might be a very good one. And you can send all your kids to SL HS. That's fine. I really don't care. The thing bothers me is we like our schools and we don't want our kids to be forced moving to other schools. Nobody likes to be FORCED to do anything. When I say 'we', I mean thousands of parents from areas other than SL. As many of others already pointed out, if SL HS is under populated. The SB should do something to attract students. Not redraw the school boundaries and force students to move.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> > 3. The Challenge Index is only counting
> high-end
> > students who take AP and IB exams. It says
> little
> > about its success in educating diverse
> > populations. For example, there is no
> indication
> > that at South Lakes Black and Hispanic students
> > have only a 20% IB participation rate while
> Whites
> > have a 57% participation rate.
>
> Jay has added the Equity in Excellence ranking to
> address those very issues.
>
> >
> Even if they have
> > horrendous rates of SOL failures, dropouts, and
> > violence.
>
> What FFX County schools has horrendous rates of
> those?
>
>
> > So can we please stop referring to the Newsweek
> > rankings?
>
> I agree that the Newsweek ranking should not carry
> the weight that many here have given it, ....

Let's start with our point of agreement: that the Newsweek ranking is overvalued by too many people. [And you obviously are more familiar with the details of the Challenge Index than are most other parents. ]

Do we also agree that EVERY school in FCPS is listed in the Challenge Index, in large part because FCPS requires students to take the exams and is paying for them?

If you check, I think you will discover Jay's "Equity in Excellence" only accounts for FRM students, NOT race, ethnicity, limited English, or any other element of diversity.

I do not want to seem to be attacking any particular school, but since you ask for what I mean by “horrendous” rates let me point to a couple examples:
1. The “Student Offence Frequency Chart” available from the state web site indicates Westfield averages about 2,700 state-reportable student offenses per year.
2. As for dropout rates: For the last four year groups (e.g., “Class of 2007”) from September of their freshman year to June of their senior year, South Lakes has averaged a 17.4% loss in students. That percentage seems “horrendous” when Chantilly, Westfield, and Oakton have loss rates of only about 5%.

> Westfield HS did not have to be so big, because
> the County could have easily districted FLoris to
> our pyramid before Westfield was even built. They
> should have done it then, but they knew their
> would be opposition and the SB was cowardly.

SLVerity,
I understand that the School Board, among other bodies, made mistakes in the past that negatively affected enrollment at SL, and I genuinely sympathize with SL.

However, it's just not dignified to the children and parents of Chantilly, Westfield, Oakton, Herndon and Madison that the Board and SL PTA would assume the right to reorient their lives in such an abrupt and significant manner. This is selfish.

It is in the best interest of the entire community to patiently and creatively solve the enrollment issue. Relying on dictat from the Board will only mask underlying problems, and set us up for the same problems in the near future.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> > 2. Jay counts the number of EXAMS taken, not
> the
> > number of COURSES taken. Students may take AP
> > exams without ever taking the course. This also
> > artificially inflates the ranking of those IB
> > schools in which students take both IB and AP
> > tests for the same subject, and thus are
> counted
> > twice.
>
> IB schools are actually penalized in his rankings,
> because kids taking HL IB two-year courses take
> only one exam, unlike AP courses which are given
> annually. Thus, my IB diploma child took less
> exams than if she had been at an AP school taking
> similarly challenging courses. ...
>
... let's not try to minimize South Lakes'
> inclusion on the list relative to other schools in
> the County, just to serve your anti-IB agenda.
> And, yes, I do know who you are.

Can we stick to data and avoid implied personal attacks? If you know who I am then you know I recommend the IB Diploma programme for some students.

High Level IB courses ARE more rigorous; why do you think educating people about the difference between SL and HL constitutes some sort of “anti-IB agenda”?

You said yourself, "my IB diploma child took less exams than if she had been at an AP school taking similarly challenging courses." Do we agree that fewer AP and IB (particularly IB-HL) exams means fewer college credits? If so, why don't you want other parents to know this?

wondering Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VaDriver: "Padre, What the hell is a 'ZORON"? Is
> that gang
> talk?"
>
>
> Padre: "Ultimate insult at TJ"
>
> _____________________________________
> So true, how at every school, certain expressions
> become popular. What is it at
> South Lakes? Chesse it, the cops?


Perdoneme?

Is that some very subtle slam about a culinary art, e.g., "let's not filet it; let's chesse it".

Are you making fun of cops' affinity for free food?

Plz explain.

>>>>"She said it first," is no excuse. This was totally inappropriate and I am disappointed in Mr. Gibson for not standing up and admitting that he was wrong. I had thought that he might possibly just be a straightforward person with different values and goals than mine. Now I see that there is no possibility of such a thing.<<<

I too am surprised that nowhere in these articles does Mr. Gibson say, 'of course we respect the privacy rights of children' or 'of course we don't discuss the needs of individual handicapped children in public'. I am also shocked that FCPS hasn't said anything about the privacy rights of students. Surely they could issue such a statement rather than refusing to comment. Is Mr.Gibson and FCPS saying that it's fine for their employees to discuss the special needs of a child as long as the parent told them about it? Can a teacher do that? Can a teacher put it in a PTA newsletter that a handicapped child has an IEP or a 504 plan if the parent discussed it with the teacher? Or if the parent went to an online forum for help with her child? FCPS needs to clarify this.

>>>>Lowering student population at Westfield is a trumped up excuse. There is no reason to lower enrollment at Westfield except to protece Langley from giving up any of their advantaged students on their 10 mile bus ride.<<<<

I figured that. Two years ago they thought the size of Westfield was ok enough to put on an addition. Now it's suddenly too big because South Lakes needs bodies.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, know that development around
> the metro will yield very few, if any, school-aged
> students, so don't count on that as a source of
> students. We've already done the projections and
> have discovered that families in this area just
> don't gravitate to urban (high-rise) developments.


Oooh, I actually have to agree with you. I read all of the plans for Lake Anne, and while I fully support revitalization, I wholeheartedly disagree with their high-rise idea. BIG mistake. I realize it will cram more people into Reston so they will yield greater tax returns, but it will also create a quality of life issue. In my opinion, they could create maybe one more high rise like what currently exists, but then build some reasonable homes. The only new construction anymore seems to be either townhomes or ginormous houses that are too ridiculously expensive. It would be refreshing to see smaller homes built around the village to keep a european village kind of feel.

Another great disappointment was the demolition of Hunter's Woods. That shopping center was WAY cool.

So true, how at every school, certain expressions
become popular. What is it at
South Lakes? Chesse it, the cops?


Perdoneme?

Is that some very subtle slam about a culinary art, e.g., "let's not filet it; let's chesse it".

Are you making fun of cops' affinity for free food?

Plz explain.

_______________________________

Padre, RE: cheese it, the cops.

Once, my brother and I were climbing all over a house which was under construction. We were jumping around on the roof, when my brother's friend spotted a cop car coming up the road. He screamed, "cheese it, the cops" and my brother jumped off the roof, landing knee first into a huge nail. Cops never noticed us at the house. And, my mother was definitely not happy as she drove, once again, to the hospital. (She had six of us)

It is an odd use of the word cheese...

If I ever go on a covert mission, I'm going to ask your brother along. He'll jump first and he won't rat.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has anyone studied when the old geezers in Reston
> will start to expire or move on?
>
> I am told this is the reason for the huge decline
> in enrollment. Seems like the empty nests must
> turn over at some point.

If the "geezers" are really retiring in place and not just pre-retirement empty nesters, it could be 20-30 years. There could be a fair number of pre-retirement empty nesters who are staying in place to finish out careers and will relocate when they reach retirement age. Those folks are likely to move in 10-20 years.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I have never put as much weight on the credit issue as you, because I think the purpose of high school is to prepare one for college. I totally agree about the challenge index and its shortcomings; however, I think it's commendable that the County pays for the exams and would argue that that is precisely why more students take them, particularly ones who might not afford it on their own. I think other jurisdictions should follow suit.

I've also been advocating for the addition of AP courses at SLHS. Though the County did not embrace that approach before, I have reason to believe that they now will. Any efforts on your part to help make that happen and in a timely way would be much appreciated. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2007 03:44PM by SLVerity.

Dear Forum Reader,

As for comparisons of drop out rates between South Lakes and Chantilly, Westfield, and Oakton, I don't think it's a fair comparision, since the FRM % is so much higher at SL. In fact, assuming that a majority of drop-outs are from poor families, the rates for all of the schools above are about 50%. SL has 33% FRM and 17% drop-out, Chantilly, Westfield and Oakton have between 8-12% FRM with a dropout rate of 5%. It looks to me like it's 50% across the board, again assuming that most drop-outs are from poor families.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Speaking for myself, I think we should not have McNair
> split between SL and HHS, for the reasons I stated
> above. It's just too much of a burden to ask the
> high schools with the most challenged students to
> take on even more.

Sending either Coopermiine or McNair to HHS will still have HHS below County FRL average. That had better happen before either goes to SLHS which would only continue the current level of disparity between SL and the rest of west County.

Why are so many SL folks so solicitous of HHS concerns, the HHS PTA is doing everything possible to shove McNair at SL. What has the HHS PTA done to so cow SL leadership that folks from SL care more about what happens to HHS than what happens to SLHS

> Also, know that development around
> the metro will yield very few, if any, school-aged
> students, so don't count on that as a source of
> students. We've already done the projections and
> have discovered that families in this area just
> don't gravitate to urban (high-rise) developments.

According the FCPS, the multi-family around the Town Center and Reston Metro Stations will generate 100-200 kids. More than "very few" and enough for the school staff to want to provide for a "buffer" for South Lakes in a redistricting scenario.

This is why scenario 5 will be rejected. It moves far too many kids into SL and leaves no buffer for the hundred or more kids to come from the thousands of multi-family units already approved.

I've seen what look to me like two myths about Reston / South Lakes student enrollment, that don't ring true in my 15 years living here:

Myth 1: Low income housing was put upon Reston, which had no say in the matter since it wasn't a town.

Reality: All land in Reston was originally owned by a succession of companies doing business as Reston Land. All development in Reston was done according to a master plan. For the most part, the county didn't say "put offices here, put stores there, put houses here"...it was a planned effort led by Reston Land. Low income housing was always part of the plan. There can be issues raised about the exact amount and type of low income housing, but its presence in Reston predates South Lakes high--if you lived there for 24 years, you knew all about it. Its part of the whole package of living in Reston, along with funky small shopping centers with not enough parking for modern grocery stores (until common sense prevailed at North Point, and then they fixed Hunter's Woods...)

Myth 2: South Lakes lost out on previous redistrictings by not getting Armstrong and Aldrin students.

Reality: When Armstrong and Aldrin were built, South Lakes was unable to accomodate those students. To the nearest 100 students, South Lakes was at 2000 students in 1992, and 1700 as recently as 2001. Capacity at those times was 2100.
http://www.schooldigger.com/go/VA/schools/0126000566/school.aspx

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Myth 2: South Lakes lost out on previous
> redistrictings by not getting Armstrong and Aldrin
> students.
>
> Reality: When Armstrong and Aldrin were built,
> South Lakes was unable to accomodate those
> students. To the nearest 100 students, South
> Lakes was at 2000 students in 1992, and 1700 as
> recently as 2001. Capacity at those times was
> 2100.


SL could have easily accommodated Aldrin when it opened.

SLVerity - you are both a fair and reasonable advocate of South Lakes High School. And I agree that the negatives that have been mentioned about the place are overblown to some extent.

But I remain persuaded that the marketplace for school information - particularly in Fairfax - is a highly efficient one - meaning that all relevant information - both good and bad - comes to the marketplace rather quickly - and that the school's decline (although to be fair,it also seems on a upward swing) - can't just be due to the negative propaganda that some have been espousing. There has had to be some concrete disincentives to the place - because in an efficient market - positive information would have simply come to light and by and large parents would have made the rational decision to put pressure on others to go to the "desirable school".

I am realistic, however - and recognize that their might be limits to applying economic theory to school and boundary selection. But I can't believe that the school's underenrollment plight is due to negative propaganda - gossip, both good and bad, exists with every school - and there has to have been something to the negative perceptions. Perhaps the fairest conclusion is that the school is indeed on an upswing, and a critical mass of data (there is some already in) has yet to accrue that you and others believe will soon obtain?

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Myth 2: South Lakes lost out on previous
> > redistrictings by not getting Armstrong and
> Aldrin
> > students.
> >
> > Reality: When Armstrong and Aldrin were built,
> > South Lakes was unable to accomodate those
> > students. To the nearest 100 students, South
> > Lakes was at 2000 students in 1992, and 1700 as
> > recently as 2001. Capacity at those times was
> > 2100.
>
>
> SL could have easily accommodated Aldrin when it
> opened.

To those of you who aren't familiar with Aldrin, it's at Baron Cameron near Forest Edge and Lake Anne. The latter schools are no where near Hunters Woods/Dogwood/etc.

re: Aldrin in 1995, its not just a question at that point of South Lakes capacity...it's a question of relative utilization at South Lakes, Herndon, Hughes, etc. The point remains that South Lakes couldn't physically take Armstrong at the time that Armstrong opened in the late 1980's, and when Aldrin was opened, taking a subset of the Armstrong area, there wasn't a compelling reason to make another change..South Lakes was still near the "ideal size", as was Herndon.

Aldrin opened in 1994. South Lakes could have accommodated those students. In fact, those students would have kept SL at or near capacity over the years and would have helped reflect the socioeconomic balance that is the entire Reston master plan in the school. In other words, SL would have been a microcosm of the community. Incidentally, Aldrin was added to Herndon and shortly thereafter Herndon was adding trailors to compensate for being overcrowded. Herndon had trailors while SL had none and in fact enrollment was declining.

Before Aldrin was built, the students living in North Point went to Lake Anne, Huges, and SLHS. I am a long-time resident, too. I have lived in Reston for 24 years, have had children in the system for 14, and my spouse has lived here since 1967.

For the record, all of the schools within the Reston Master plan are relatively close to SL. Last night I drove in the snow from the intersection of Wiehle/Reston Parkway to SLHS. Even under slow driving conditions and at rush hour (6pm), it took me 13 minutes.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> re: Aldrin in 1995, its not just a question at
> that point of South Lakes capacity...it's a
> question of relative utilization at South Lakes,
> Herndon, Hughes, etc. The point remains that
> South Lakes couldn't physically take Armstrong at
> the time that Armstrong opened in the late 1980's,
> and when Aldrin was opened, taking a subset of the
> Armstrong area, there wasn't a compelling reason
> to make another change..South Lakes was still near
> the "ideal size", as was Herndon.

WE would have been happy with just Aldrin.

North Point went to Armstrong and Herndon by the early 1990's before Aldrin was built, since they wouldn't fit in South Lakes, We looked at houses in North Point in 1993, so I'm sure about that statement. We physically walked to Armstrong from Deer Forest, and were even surprised that a Reston address went to a Herndon high school.

My point was just the inference that the school board somehow short changed South Lakes systematically in this whole process, "whittling away" boundaries. I don't think the record shows that. They made the decision when Aldrin opened for reasons that seem defensible after the fact...you might have made different decisions if your goal was to maximize South Lakes' enrollment.

That said, I have no issue with sending Aldrin to South Lakes now. The people living there who attended the redistricting meetings are not supportiveg of that change (option 4) and even the SLHS PTA doesn't recommend that option.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I have said many times that 1991 was a death knell year for SL. That was the year that our Ivy-League educated principal was horse-traded for Really Rodriguez (principal horribilus - hat tip to QE) and was also the year that IB was added and the phase out of AP began. There were two very vocal anti-IB parents who led a prolonged and ultimately unsuccessful campaign to rid SL of IB. Their efforts did not result in the removal of IB, but did result in creating fear about the program and caused many families to bail out. Some of their negative propaganda led parents of boys to think that they could never do IB, because of the amount of writing involved. Result: families pupil-placed or went to private school or moved. IMHO, those three women contributed greatly to the demise that led to our negative reputation. It was not until the Class of 2007 that that myth was dispelled. That was the year when an abundance of boys graduated with the diploma. Boys are now signing on at rate nearly equal to girls.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Well, Longwood Grove and other older neighborhoods in North Point went to Lake Anne, Hughes, and SL. I knew some families that were uprooted from SL to Herndon. As far as I am concerned it is water under the bridge. I think it is a shame that Aldrin was ever added to Herndon. I support Herndon to a point, but not at the expense of South Lakes. Thomas More is right, Herndon is better equipped to take McNair, but neither school should be burdened with more Title I kids. The fact that Aldrin is opposed to a SL move does not surprise me. It seems that almost everyone is opposed to SL. Too bad.

I want to know more about what Birduis says about the McNair students. My information is based on the Title I label.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> ,... I have no issue with sending Aldrin to
> South Lakes now. The people living there who
> attended the redistricting meetings are not
> supportiveg of that change (option 4) and even the
> SLHS PTA doesn't recommend that option.

SLHS PTA?
Why? Acclimated to the disdain?
Or Gibson won't do that to his key constituents?

taxpayer Wrote:

>
> SLHS PTA?
> Why? Acclimated to the disdain?
> Or Gibson won't do that to his key constituents?

Unfortunately, Option 4 left SL underenrolled by 200 students and required the most shifting of students in and out of Herndon. I don't think it will get due support, but would be pleased if it happened.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (option 4) and even the
> SLHS PTA doesn't recommend that option.

SL PTA has taken no position on this issue. Any representation to the contrary is against the PTA charter. Any officer of that PTA advocating for a specific option has a very delicate line to walk to make sure that the public at large doesn't confuse individual advocacy with advocacy by the organization they are supposed to serve.

Option 4 has lots of support in the Reston community



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2007 06:33PM by Thomas More.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unfortunately, Option 4 left SL underenrolled by
> 200 students and required the most shifting of
> students in and out of Herndon. I don't think it
> will get due support, but would be pleased if it
> happened.

Because of the multi-family development around the Town Center, any redistricting must provide for a "buffer" for SL. None of the other Options, including scenario 5, give SL any room for the extra kids coming from those THOUSANDS of units.

None of the other options/scenarios does as much to lower SL's FRL.

I really can't figure out any reason for a Reston/SL supporter to support any option other than 4

Which Option did you support?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Forum Reader,
>
> As for comparisons of drop out rates between South
> Lakes and Chantilly, Westfield, and Oakton, I
> don't think it's a fair comparision, since the FRM
> % is so much higher at SL. In fact, assuming that
> a majority of drop-outs are from poor families,
> the rates for all of the schools above are about
> 50%. SL has 33% FRM and 17% drop-out, Chantilly,
> Westfield and Oakton have between 8-12% FRM with a
> dropout rate of 5%. It looks to me like it's 50%
> across the board, again assuming that most
> drop-outs are from poor families.

--------
Are you saying the dropout is expected to be half the FRM students? Data show many schools do not fit your model.

Langley's FRM is 1.1% but has a four-year drop of 4.3%. Herndon has an FRM of 16.6% and a dropout rate of 18.2%. Madison and McLean also have higher dropout rates than FRM rates.

Other schools have much lower rates than your model would predict. Fairfax has 14.2% FRM but only 4.6% dropouts over four years, and some of these "drops" were actually transferred to Woodson in a small boundary shift.

> Option 4 left SL underenrolled by 200 students

Acutally the plan is to leave all the schoools underenrolled by a few hundred... primarily because they don't really know what they're doing.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
I was only speaking from the numbers you provided of 17% for SL and 5% for Oakton, Chantilly, and Westfield.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > SL PTA has taken no position on this issue. Any
> representation to the contrary is against the PTA
> charter. Any officer of that PTA advocating for a
> specific option has a very delicate line to walk
> to make sure that the public at large doesn't
> confuse individual advocacy with advocacy by the
> organization they are supposed to serve.
>
> Option 4 has lots of support in the Reston
> community


Take a look at the SL PTA Website. They certainly do take a position. Talking points and all.

FCPS Wrote:

"....I will speculate that minorities at Langley, Oakton, McLean, Madison, Woodson do better than the minorities at Annandale, Falls Church, Mt. Vernon and Edison."

_______________________________

Neen responded:

"Yes, rich kids of all races do better than poor kids. Perhaps it has something to do with genetics, and more two parent families among richer families. Just my wild guesses.

Did you know that a child born to two married parents has less than a 4% (3.8%) chance of growing up in poverty while a child born to a single mom has a nearly 40% (37%) chance of growing up poor?"

_________________________________

FSPS, like most liberals, either, can't read, or, is a liar, or, both, retorts:

"Yikes Neen-let's not expose our racist tendencies here-genetics? please?

I would advise you not to advance your white supremacy theory at the next meeting-it might hurt your cause.

Rich kids do better thatn poor kids. Honesty, .....

Do you honestly think that Whites are intelectually superior to African Americans? "

__________________________________

SLVerity, another card carrying liberal, joins in:

"Don't worry, FCPS Parent. Neen has exposed her elitist tendencies before......

However, all of Neen's talk about South Lakes and Stu's failures with the poor children is really just gratuitous talk, because she just told us what she really thinks: "Yes, rich kids of all races do better than poor kids. Perhaps it has something to do with genetics, and more two parent families among richer families."

With all the hatred she has......etc."

___________________________________


The play is almost over, but before the curtains close...

We have the denouement:


SLVerity, with a voice full of compassion.... eyes, blinking back tears, delivers the final heart wrenching line:


"Sometimes when I volunteered at Hunter's Woods I would spend the entire time just holding a child, because that is what that child needed on that day.

And please Birdlover, no cynical comments. They would demean you."

____________________________________

Ok, Verity, not a word out of me.

anotherobserver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > SL PTA has taken no position on this issue.
> Any
> > representation to the contrary is against the
> PTA
> > charter. Any officer of that PTA advocating for
> a
> > specific option has a very delicate line to
> walk
> > to make sure that the public at large doesn't
> > confuse individual advocacy with advocacy by
> the
> > organization they are supposed to serve.
>
> Take a look at the SL PTA Website. They certainly
> do take a position. Talking points and all.

There're talking points about all four staff options and a fifth option. But I don't see an endorsement of any of the 5.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have said many times that 1991 was a death knell
> year for SL. That was the year that our Ivy-League
> educated principal was horse-traded ... the phase out of AP began.

I know you realize the phase out of AP began in 1999, not 1991. [We all make mistakes – but unlike some members of FCPS we can admit ours and move on…]

But are you trying to tell us it made a difference that the former principal was "Ivy-League educated"? Aren't you one who states students can get an outstanding education even if they do not attend a top-ranked school?

Forum Reader - I actually inferred something different from SL Verity's response. I inferred that his reference to an Ivy League educated principal meant that the school then had an excellent principal that lived up to the expectations one typically (correctly or not) holds of Ivy League graduates, and that this principal was replaced by someone who was far from competent and did quite a bit of damage. I cannot speak for SL Verity, and he or she can of course confirm, but I think the intent was to demonstrate the stark contrast between the two rather than to make a conclusive statement as to the value of an Ivy League education, something to which is, like everything else in life, only worth what what one puts into it. In any event, I think the point was to demonstrate contrast rather than to make an empirical statement about Ivy Leaguers.

SL Verity's points are interesting, too. One often hears about the feminization of American education, but rarely is there an anecdote applicable to an entire school. Yet that appears to some degree what happened at South Lakes, at least if you define it as an environment less susceptible to success for boys. The "progressive" emphasis on minimizing competition hurts boys - many boys simply don't get motivated unless they can compete - and this, along with (like it or not, Neen is correct) the trend to"whole language" reading - a ghastly result for the vast majority of students that can pick up reading phonetically and progress well with it, and "real" (sic) math, that precludes the repetition so essential to learning higher level math, have really made it rough for boys (except in the highest socio-economic bracket, where they continue to do quite well), In any event, SL Verity offers a window into oft heard complaints - interesting and likely worthy of study.

And I must say that some of the South Lakes supporters have to a degree moderated my views - that is the essence of persuasion. South Lakes ought to be prepared to respond to the market demands of their consumers, but I think they have demonstrated that they are better prepared than many think to do that. Here's hoping they will.

Apparently this thread is still going strong....

FCPS Wrote:

"....I will speculate that minorities at Langley, Oakton, McLean, Madison, Woodson do better than the minorities at Annandale, Falls Church, Mt. Vernon and Edison."

_______________________________

Neen responded:

"Yes, rich kids of all races do better than poor kids. Perhaps it has something to do with genetics, and more two parent families among richer families. Just my wild guesses.

Did you know that a child born to two married parents has less than a 4% (3.8%) chance of growing up in poverty while a child born to a single mom has a nearly 40% (37%) chance of growing up poor?"

_________________________________

FSPS, like most liberals, either, can't read, or, is a liar, or, both, retorts:

"Yikes Neen-let's not expose our racist tendencies here-genetics? please?

I would advise you not to advance your white supremacy theory at the next meeting-it might hurt your cause.

Rich kids do better thatn poor kids. Honesty, .....

Do you honestly think that Whites are intelectually superior to African Americans? "

__________________________________

SLVerity, another card carrying liberal, joins in:

"Don't worry, FCPS Parent. Neen has exposed her elitist tendencies before......

However, all of Neen's talk about South Lakes and Stu's failures with the poor children is really just gratuitous talk, because she just told us what she really thinks: "Yes, rich kids of all races do better than poor kids. Perhaps it has something to do with genetics, and more two parent families among richer families."

With all the hatred she has......etc."

___________________________________


The play is almost over, but before the curtains close...

We have the denouement:


SLVerity, with a voice full of compassion.... eyes, blinking back tears, delivers the final heart wrenching line:


"Sometimes when I volunteered at Hunter's Woods I would spend the entire time just holding a child, because that is what that child needed on that day.

And please Birdlover, no cynical comments. They would demean you."

____________________________________

something strange is going on

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader - I actually inferred something
> different from SL Verity's response. I inferred
> that his reference to an Ivy League educated
> principal meant that the school then had an
> excellent principal that lived up to the
> expectations one typically (correctly or not)
> holds of Ivy League graduates, and that this
> principal was replaced by someone who was far from
> competent and did quite a bit of damage. I cannot
> speak for SL Verity, and he or she can of course
> confirm, but I think the intent was to demonstrate
> the stark contrast between the two rather than to
> make a conclusive statement as to the value of an
> Ivy League education, something to which is, like
> everything else in life, only worth what what one
> puts into it. In any event, I think the point was
> to demonstrate contrast rather than to make an
> empirical statement about Ivy Leaguers.


If SLVerity was referring to Railly's predecessor, be advise that his leaving was not his idea and he was not unanimously cherished by the entire SL community, though clearly SLVerity liked him though her kids were not yet at SL.

Our Delegate, Ken Plum, himself a former FCPS employee, has said that SL has had a leadership problem since the day it opened. It is clear that 1999 marked a dramatic downturn in SL's reputation and standing in the community.

I had hopes that we would see a dramatic turn around after Railly left but have been repeatedly disappointed since then.

Hey, Tom. May I call you that?

Just wondering if you and SL Verity are married, or something?

SLVerity Wrote:
> I've also been advocating for the addition of AP
> courses at SLHS. Though the County did not
> embrace that approach before, I have reason to
> believe that they now will. Any efforts on your
> part to help make that happen and in a timely way
> would be much appreciated. :)

----------
Sorry, but you can't have it all. If you want a decent AP program, you’ll have to get rid of IB.

That was the decision Woodson made. IB was put in Woodson the same year as at South Lakes. The then-Woodson principal, Gary Miller, had told the PTSA that Woodson would keep its AP courses. When the Woodson community learned that was not true, an Advanced Course Advisory Committee was formed with students, staff, and parents. Several members of this Advisory Committee, including both IB and AP proponents, tried to create a mutually acceptable compromise which would keep both programs. However, FCPS Central Staff stated, “Because of scheduling and staffing issues, a school must choose to be either an IB diploma or an AP diploma school. AP diploma schools will not offer IB courses and IB Diploma schools will only offer a few AP courses that do not duplicate IB offerings.” [Smith, Janie, Director, FCPS Office of High School Instruction and K-12 Curriculum Services. “For Your Information: Handouts on IB and AP Diploma Programs.” Memorandum dated October 6, 1999.]

Last year even super-large Robinson, the largest IB school in Virginia, could only offer six AP courses not duplicated in the IB programme: Calculus AB, Computer Science A, English Lit, Government, Statistics, and US History.

Leave it to Birdlover to always provide vacuous and inane commentary. Funny that she thinks I am liberal, though. Anyone who has read my posts knows that I am not of that political persuasion. Interesting that she, as a conservative, thinks that there is no room for compassion in that movement. Projection, perhaps?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > I've also been advocating for the addition of
> AP
> > courses at SLHS. Though the County did not
> > embrace that approach before, I have reason to
> > believe that they now will. Any efforts on
> your
> > part to help make that happen and in a timely
> way
> > would be much appreciated. :)
>
> ----------
> Sorry, but you can't have it all. If you want a
> decent AP program, you’ll have to get rid of IB.
>
> That was the decision Woodson made. IB was put in
> Woodson the same year as at South Lakes. The
> then-Woodson principal, Gary Miller, had told the
> PTSA that Woodson would keep its AP courses. When
> the Woodson community learned that was not true,
> an Advanced Course Advisory Committee was formed
> with students, staff, and parents. Several members
> of this Advisory Committee, including both IB and
> AP proponents, tried to create a mutually
> acceptable compromise which would keep both
> programs. However, FCPS Central Staff stated,
> “Because of scheduling and staffing issues, a
> school must choose to be either an IB diploma or
> an AP diploma school. AP diploma schools will not
> offer IB courses and IB Diploma schools will only
> offer a few AP courses that do not duplicate IB
> offerings.”
>
> Last year even super-large Robinson, the largest
> IB school in Virginia, could only offer six AP
> courses not duplicated in the IB programme:
> Calculus AB, Computer Science A, English Lit,
> Government, Statistics, and US History.

I think the IB program is great, but it could be enhanced with math courses for the engineering minded. That's where we differ, and that is why I think you have played a big role in damaging the reputation of SL. SL is the only IB school that currently does not offer any AP courses, including those far smaller.

You could get on the current bandwagon and help your community school with the effort to add AP classes, or you could live in the year 1999. We have the momentum to do it, particularly with the current boundary process. Those families being districted in have the momentum, too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2007 10:19PM by SLVerity.

Forum Reader Wrote:
Re the Ivy League comment.

You really shouldn't read anything into it, and it really makes no difference to me where he was educated. I was just trying to provide a contrast. I actually think our Ivies today have been overrun with liberalism, and that room for healthy disagreement has been stifled. Some schools are worse than others. One in particular has been way over the top. I won't name any names, for fear of offending anyone posting here.

One last point: Death-knell year was 2001, not 1991. Senior moment.

"Leave it to Birdlover to always provide vacuous and inane commentary. Funny that she thinks I am liberal, though. Anyone who has read my posts knows that I am not of that political persuasion. Interesting that she, as a conservative, thinks that there is no room for compassion in that movement. Projection, perhaps?"

_____________________________

How funny... Projection? Verity, before using a big word, find out what it means.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I had hopes that we would see a dramatic turn
> around after Railly left but have been repeatedly
> disappointed since then.

Thomas, when is the last time, if ever, that you saw this amount of parental involvement and energy at South Lakes. Also, you can't deny that SL had the largest jump in SAT scores in the County last year. Please, no comparison to SL former SAT glory - I am living for the present and future.

Birdie, did you always have to be the class clown?

Tom, may I call you that?

Please ask your alter ego to go meditate for awhile.

Oooooohhhhhmmmmmm........

Margie, get lost.

Verity, Try again.... How about using the word 'projection', correctly?

Verity,

Tom is allowed to help, just this one time.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas, when is the last time, if ever, that you
> saw this amount of parental involvement and energy
> at South Lakes.

Ridge Louix's PTA meetings had more folks in attendance. After Railly's 7 year Reign of Terror parent participation couldn't have gone much lower.

> Also, you can't deny that SL had
> the largest jump in SAT scores in the County last
> year. Please, no comparison to SL former SAT glory
> - I am living for the present and future.

While the College Board insists that SATs aggregated by schools mean almost nothing, since you brought it up, I recall the SATs were higher before Railly and IB.

Do we really want to go 'round on IB again, we are not going to change each other's mind on this issue.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2007 10:42PM by Thomas More.

Tom, may I call you that?

I'm going to have to ask you and Verity to step away from the computer.

Keep those typing fingers in front of you.

Step away, nice and slow, both of you.

No sudden movements.

Tom and Verity,

You have the right to remain silent.

You have the right to an attorney.

If you can't afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.

Knowing your rights, are you willing to continue without an attorney present?

SLVerity Wrote:
> I have never put as much weight on the credit
> issue as you, because I think the purpose of high
> school is to prepare one for college. I totally
> agree about the challenge index and its
> shortcomings; however, I think it's commendable
> that the County pays for the exams and would argue
> that that is precisely why more students take
> them, particularly ones who might not afford it on
> their own. I think other jurisdictions should
> follow suit.
>
--------------------
[I think you agree that while ONE purpose of high school is to prepare for college, it is certainly not the only purpose.]

If only FRM students had their IB and AP fees paid by FCPS your argument would be stronger. As I pointed out, Virginia Tech will grant credits up to 38 credits for IB and AP exam results. In most locations families pay for these exams. Why in Fairfax County should the taxpayer be paying these fees?

There are three college-related issues: admission, placement, and credit.

You already know this, of course, but for those who don't: the full IB Diploma includes three IB HL and 3 IB SL courses, a 4,000 word extended essay, a one-year course called Theory of Knowledge, and a requirement for “Creativity, Action, Service (CAS).” The IB courses must include at least one each in English, a second language, history (non-US), math, and science. This is a rigorous programme and IB Diploma grads are generally in good shape in regards to college admission and credit and can also take advanced placement exams.

ON THE OTHER HAND, it is far easier to get college credit for a few AP courses than for a few IB courses. [Example: at least last time I checked, a "5" in AP US History and a 5 in BC Calculus earn 16 credits - more than a full semester - at UVA.] Yet the students in the FCPS high schools with the highest FRM rates don't have a chance to earn these "free" college credits from AP exams: the ten FCPS's high schools with the highest FRM percentages include seven of the eight IB schools. That is just wrong.

That's really good to know, Forum.

But at the moment, we have a perp we need to process... you know, mug shots and finger prints, so could you hold off on those stats for a moment?

Thanks

Tom,

Do you wish to sign a confession?

Tom, as your court appointed attorney, I must advise you to remain silent...

Very silent

Go ahead, forum

We've got the scum in hand cuffs.

They didn't even resist arrest. As preps go, they were high class.

Tom and Verity are now screaming police brutality. Thank God, I had my camera running.

Tom is demanding his own cell, with WiFi and Starbucks, etc.

Verity just wants to be with Tom.

Isn't funny how the big liberal female, in the end, just wants to be with her man.

Sorry, verity, this isn't college, no coed dorms here.

>>>have discovered that families in this area just don't gravitate to urban (high-rise) developments.<<<

That's what the school system keeps saying but that has not been proven to be true. (Perhaps that's why FCPS projections are always wrong.) Many immigrant families first move into those apartments.

Won't that new housing have subsidized apartments in each building? Wouldn't we expect those to rent to families?

Ok, folks, keep moving .... nothing here, keep moving...just an accident... keep moving.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Won't that new housing have subsidized apartments
> in each building? Wouldn't we expect those to
> rent to families?


Oooh, oooh, oooh! True dat, yo. (Working on my low socio-economic linguistic skills in case my child has to become fluent.)

I forgot about the mandatory 12% ADU quota for all new developments. However, in those cases where they are not rental communities, the criteria for purchasing is somewhat stringent. One must have good credit, for starters, and it excludes welfare recipients because one must work to purchase the home -- they just can't make over a certain amount. However, most do have children because families are a higher priority in the lottery drawing.