Quantum,

I should have added that though I have been an conservative thinker in a pretty liberal suburb, I always relied on my neighbors in areas like Oak Hill and Vienna to be the standard-bearers in our area for conservative thought. Alas, they have let me down.

What I took away from this redistricting is a new and profound regard for the liberals of Reston. Though I don't agree with their political philosophies, I do respectfully acknowledge that they do walk the walk, unlike their liberal peers in Vienna, Oakton, Oak Hill, and Great Falls/McLean. In addition, some liberals in Reston have finally woken up to the fact that their kindness has been taken advantage of by those decision-makers referenced in my last post and their counterparts in surrounding communities. They are finally waking up to the fact that enough is enough where Reston and affordable housing is concerned. In fact, the only group I know of that is pushing more affordable housing in Reston, besides the Connelly/Hudgins pairing, is Reston Interfaith, and last time I checked, their supporters and membership included many do-gooders who live outside of Reston in places like Great Falls/McLean, Vienna, and Oakton.

You should wish that more people like me were concerned. This is my community and I will always be involved. It is not a question of meddling, it is a matter of responsible citizenry. Added bonus: Perhaps I can change a few minds and hearts along the way:-)

why so concerned? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

When Thoreau and Hughes have the same FRM percentage I'll invite the comparison.

why so concerned? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Then stop with the 'failing' schools meme and
> > we'll talk.
> >
> >
>
> That's hard when Hughes failed AYP in 2005, 2006,
> 2007, has DOE accreditation rates in the 70s/80s
> and a 57% failure rate at grade 7 maths SOL - even
> including the 20% GT center and a 40% in school GT
> membership.
>
> Am I misinterpreting the numbers - should it be
> 'schools who cunningly hide their success so that
> they don't get swamped with applicants'?
>
> Madison North was the only part of the study RD'd
> at the middle school level - from a successful
> school, of which it has been an active part for a
> very long time, to one with substantial 'hidden
> success'. All to protect Langley.
>
> Ahhhhh - buts it's all about facilities, not
> performance.
>
>
> So anyway - why are you so concerned that this
> happens?

peeps Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hate this thread Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > why are you people still here. meeps wants you
> to
> > be leaving. so get out. We have tried to be
> nice
> > but you stuck up rich people just don't get it.
> We
> > dont care about your little snot nose kids. Be
> > happy your kids get an education. baffled and
> the
> > forum reading nimrod and miss quantum
> realitivity
> > shit... go away.
>
>
> Oh come on, did meeps ever even imagine that this
> forum would ever be THIS active? really what
> other threads have attracted such attention?
> "help find Jeddah"? Don't think so. Pretty sure
> meep's is finer than frog's here with this
> baffling quantum of forum reader and More.


?????????????????????????????????

so which of the nimrod eggheads are you? this is baffling

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When Thoreau and Hughes have the same FRM
> percentage I'll invite the comparison.
>
> why so concerned? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Then stop with the 'failing' schools meme and
> > > we'll talk.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > That's hard when Hughes failed AYP in 2005,
> 2006,
> > 2007, has DOE accreditation rates in the
> 70s/80s
> > and a 57% failure rate at grade 7 maths SOL -
> even
> > including the 20% GT center and a 40% in school
> GT
> > membership.
> >
> > Am I misinterpreting the numbers - should it be
> > 'schools who cunningly hide their success so
> that
> > they don't get swamped with applicants'?
> >
> > Madison North was the only part of the study
> RD'd
> > at the middle school level - from a successful
> > school, of which it has been an active part for
> a
> > very long time, to one with substantial 'hidden
> > success'. All to protect Langley.
> >
> > Ahhhhh - buts it's all about facilities, not
> > performance.
> >
> >
> > So anyway - why are you so concerned that this
> > happens?


So its all about evening out FRM then. I can assure you that I come a background as poor as most FRM. FRM is not the cause of low performance, low expectations and low engagement are.

I like the technique - pick a small neighborhood which is no trouble to anyone and say

"sorry, this other school has high FRM and endemic failure and we think one causes the other - so we'll have your kids and f* you"


pathetic

why fix a performance problem when you can hide it

57% math SOL failure with 20% GT center and 40% in school GT - does that mean no-one in non-GT passed 7th grade math? not one?

BTW - you don't have to invite comparison - luckily VDOE and FCPS figures do that for you.

But maybe we should just give a free pass to failing schools - don't bother turning your figures in because people might just ask why.

You MI victim schtick sure gets old. As I asked before, are you worried that your kids will fail the SOLs? If not, then quit your whining. They will get the same education as their peers in ant other school in our system. Your concern for the 'lowly expected' of Hughes is heartwarming, though and I agree that we should raise expectations for them. 'Soft bigotry of low expectations' is a great phrase and I hope you agree.

It's not about evening out the FRM numbers - I simply said that comparing the two schools on the basis of one amalgamated test score is unfair. You have to crunch the underlying numbers.

BTW, during the year from which you quote scores, and the four years prior, Hughes was led by a very inferior principal who looked good on paper but stank where it really matters - she did not help those students at all (ironically, McLean HS is stuck with her). Hughes now has a truly proactive principal who will do much to further the school's performance. For those who make fun of the behavior models she instituted at SL that are now being used at Hughes, remember, that many of the intended targets of the program have not been taught by their parents the proper and respectful way to behave in school. Once they learn to respect their peers, elders and environment, they will learn to respect themselves and their academic performance will improve.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You MI victim schtick sure gets old. As I asked
> before, are you worried that your kids will fail
> the SOLs? If not, then quit your whining. They
> will get the same education as their peers in ant
> other school in our system. Your concern for the
> 'lowly expected' of Hughes is heartwarming, though
> and I agree that we should raise expectations for
> them. 'Soft bigotry of low expectations' is a
> great phrase and I hope you agree.



let me get this right...


any question as to why there is such low performance in a county school is bigotry?


any question as to why a facilities-led RD, declared unnecessary by the head of facilities, is used to target a small community for political convenience to protect a better connected community is victim schtick?


not sure if that's more Kafka or Orwell

whichever - its BS

You think low expectations on the part of our educators for certain sectors of the school population isn't bigotry? Please explain?

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a little confused with some of the recent
> posts. Some posters have commented on how
> organized and smart and rich and white the SL
> supporters were during RD. If the goal is to have
> one's child in a school with lots of parental
> involvement, did not those very parents
> demonstrate that there is a very active, albeit
> small, level of parent involvement at SL? I don't
> think those against RD can have it both ways -
> either those SL parents were involved or they
> weren't.
>
> I believe there is a very strong push to get
> parents of lower-income students more involved at
> Hughes and SL. Speaking from experience, those
> goals are not met overnight, and there will always
> be a core group of parents who will never be
> involved (e.g., not savvy enough to realize the
> importance or working two or three jobs). Is it
> not also true that parental involvement sometimes
> drops off at the other end of the social spectrum
> (e.g. both parents work full-time plus to afford
> the large home and the big cars)? Aren't there
> many parents with kids at Madison and Oakton who
> never set foot in the door?
>
> I read a summer mailing from the Oakton PTSA
> president begging for parents to join. She quoted
> a statistic that only 1/3 of the parents at Oakton
> were members. This was two or three years ago.
> Could it not be that there are just more middle
> class parents at Oakton, which makes it seem like
> a higher proportion of parents are involved?
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > From the web cite of a "higher achieving"
> school:
> > "Parental cooperation and support are integral
> > components for student progress."
> >


Begging? Please! My son is a rising Oakton 9th grader and we received an "invitation" from the PTSA to consider joining. There was no hint of begging involved. (And what a stupid point to try to make anyway. Anyone who received the letter knows you are being dumb--and now you certainly have no credibility at all.)

What would be the repercussions if we stopped allowing our children to take the SOLs? Since they (SB) use this data against high-performing communities, I wonder what would happen if they just didn't have this data to pull from?

How does this data really benefit the children versus the schools and the SB? What negative impact could refusing to take the test have on high performing students? Could then prevent them from enrolling in certain classes--if they could there must be a way around that.

Since you and your partners at SLHS are so gravely concerned about the underperformance of minorities at your school, what are you doing about it?

Please cit specific programs that are IN PLACE to help with:

dropouts, low SAT participation, achievement gaps, reduces suspensions, etc.

I know in theory you want these issues to improve-but what are you doing about it now?

The budget killed all the timeout programs and many programs geared to minorities. Please address the issue of the perceived "2 school" culture at SLHS. One for the white kids, and one for everyone else.

As far as participation rates for 12th graders at SLHS-an indication of whether the student is going the college route-I found some interesting data:

In 2006-07 40 Black students took the SAT with about 28% scoring above the national average.

In 2005-06 38 Black students took the SAT with about 18% scoring above the national average.

In 2004-05 42 Black students took the SAT with about 24% scoring above the national average.

It does not look like the principal, staff, or PTA at SLHS is focused on more Black students taking the SAT and/or providing them with SAT prep to help them improve their performance.

Let's take a look at how Latinos fare at SLHS:

In 2006-07 18 Latinos took the SAT with about 35% scoring above the national average.

In 2005-06 21 Latinos took the SAT with about 33% scroing above the national average.

In 2004-05 12 Latinos took the SAT with about 17% scoring above the natonal average.

In 2006-07 19 11th and 12th grade Latinos participated in IB with just 7 taking the exams.

In 2005-06 18 11th and 12th grade Latinos participated in IB with just 8 taking the exams.

Why isn't this school doing more to improve the participation rate of Latinos on SAT and IB?

I thought this school was "on the right track"?

Are things really better at SLHS - do those figures refer to scores that are above the national average for all students, or just black students? I assume you mean all students, and if so, given the very significant performance gaps that exist between black students and white students, those figures, while not happy ones, paint a much better picture than at most schools in the country. Of course they should be better given the Sweden that is Reston, but comparatively speaking, they sadly are not that bad. To have nearly a 1/3 of black students scoring above the national average is relatively rare.

are things really better at SLHS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as participation rates for 12th graders at
> SLHS-an indication of whether the student is going
> the college route-I found some interesting data:
>
> In 2006-07 40 Black students took the SAT with
> about 28% scoring above the national average.
>
> In 2005-06 38 Black students took the SAT with
> about 18% scoring above the national average.
>
> In 2004-05 42 Black students took the SAT with
> about 24% scoring above the national average.
>
> It does not look like the principal, staff, or PTA
> at SLHS is focused on more Black students taking
> the SAT and/or providing them with SAT prep to
> help them improve their performance.

Why was there a National Achievement Scholar from South Lakes last year, and not one from Madison, Oakton or Chantilly?

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are things really better at SLHS - do those
> figures refer to scores that are above the
> national average for all students, or just black
> students? I assume you mean all students, and if
> so, given the very significant performance gaps
> that exist between black students and white
> students, those figures, while not happy ones,
> paint a much better picture than at most schools
> in the country. Of course they should be better
> given the Sweden that is Reston, but comparatively
> speaking, they sadly are not that bad. To have
> nearly a 1/3 of black students scoring above the
> national average is relatively rare.

I think you're misinterpreting the numbers, my calculations (from fcps and vdoe sources) gave

minority SAT take rate at SLHS

asian 70%
black 54%
hispanic 31%

so I suspect that 'are things...' means 1/3 of 54%

which isn't so good

Back to You Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why was there a National Achievement Scholar from
> South Lakes last year, and not one from Madison,
> Oakton or Chantilly?

Congratulations to that SL student. He or she is undoubtedly deserving of the scholarship. But, what's your point? If you're trying to defend SL as a whole, you'll have to do better than citing 1 student who displayed superior academic ability.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quantum,
>
> I should have added that though I have been an
> conservative thinker in a pretty liberal suburb, I
> always relied on my neighbors in areas like Oak
> Hill and Vienna to be the standard-bearers in our
> area for conservative thought. Alas, they have
> let me down.
>
> What I took away from this redistricting is a new
> and profound regard for the liberals of Reston.
> Though I don't agree with their political
> philosophies, I do respectfully acknowledge that
> they do walk the walk, unlike their liberal peers
> in Vienna, Oakton, Oak Hill, and Great
> Falls/McLean. In addition, some liberals in
> Reston have finally woken up to the fact that
> their kindness has been taken advantage of by
> those decision-makers referenced in my last post
> and their counterparts in surrounding communities.
> They are finally waking up to the fact that
> enough is enough where Reston and affordable
> housing is concerned. In fact, the only group I
> know of that is pushing more affordable housing in
> Reston, besides the Connelly/Hudgins pairing, is
> Reston Interfaith, and last time I checked, their
> supporters and membership included many do-gooders
> who live outside of Reston in places like Great
> Falls/McLean, Vienna, and Oakton.


you can blame a lot of the change in attitudes on the behavior of the landowners and development cabal in the recent Hunter Mill Special Study - when affordable housing was pushed as the justification for huge density and profits, particularly by a mysterious and very vocal astro-turf group.

Well, until the Post exposed the whole thing was a scam run by the very wealthy architect, his sister and daughter and populated primarily by members of the developer community.

Who'd have guessed?

Kind of gave the whole affordable-housing-for-density process a bit of a bad name.

If I'd been Cathy Hudgins, I'd have been furious...

Anyway, back to RD...

You are now my political guru as well as my grammar teacher. You really are awesome.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Why can't students in that part of Virginia attend UVA Wise?< <

Apparently GMU, JMU and UVA don't want to expand any more than is already program. The Commonwealth needs a place to send the overflow kids from NoVa who qualify for a university education. Instead of building a new university near where the kids are, the folks who run the state are going to build it in the far sw where there is no economic base.

> > Are you saying that the rich parts of the state shouldn't contribute to the poor parts of the state? I thought you were a democrat. Surely you don't mind sending your money to support those less fortunate in the southern part of our state.< <

It is inefficient to whole of society to force NoVa students to have to travel 5-6 hours to the sw to get a university education when the kids from RoVa can get such an education at Radford, Longwood, VTech, ODU and CNU, without 5-6 hours of travel.

The new university should be closer to NoVa, like Culpeper or Warrenton, if its principal purpose is to address the overflow of college kids from NoVa.

I'm happy to help with economic development projects for RoVa if the delegates from RoVa reciprocate.

E.g., NoVa is paying for the Coalfield Expressway across the southern boundary of the Commonwealth but the RoVa delegates won't vote for taxes to solve the road shortfall in NoVa.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Why can't students in that part of Virginia
> attend UVA Wise?< <
>
> Apparently GMU, JMU and UVA don't want to expand
> any more than is already program. The Commonwealth
> needs a place to send the overflow kids from NoVa
> who qualify for a university education. Instead
> of building a new university near where the kids
> are, the folks who run the state are going to
> build it in the far sw where there is no economic
> base.
>
> > > Are you saying that the rich parts of the
> state shouldn't contribute to the poor parts of
> the state? I thought you were a democrat. Surely
> you don't mind sending your money to support those
> less fortunate in the southern part of our state.<
> <
>
> It is inefficient to whole of society to force
> NoVa students to have to travel 5-6 hours to the
> sw to get a university education when the kids
> from RoVa can get such an education at Radford,
> Longwood, VTech, ODU and CNU, without 5-6 hours of
> travel.
>
> The new university should be closer to NoVa, like
> Culpeper or Warrenton, if its principal purpose is
> to address the overflow of college kids from
> NoVa.
>
> I'm happy to help with economic development
> projects for RoVa if the delegates from RoVa
> reciprocate.
>
> E.g., NoVa is paying for the Coalfield Expressway
> across the southern boundary of the Commonwealth
> but the RoVa delegates won't vote for taxes to
> solve the road shortfall in NoVa.

There's no justification for placing another VA university in the boonies when we need it here

It should be in either Fairfax or Loudon where it can engage with the high tech industrial and commercial base.

Virginia does not need another rural university, it does need more academic capacity integrated with NoVa community - this is where the demand is, this is where the jobs will be, this is where industry needs the research support

Why aren't our local representatives doing their job?

I keep looking for some balance sheet of taxes generated and passed in and out of between NoVa and RoVa.

We've got gridlock, our schools are falling apart and we don't get our fair share of state investment (read our taxes). Why are our taxes revenues being showered over the rest of the state?

Also why are there quotas at VA state colleges which make it harder for our kids to get into the universities we pay for, so there's more room for RoVa kids and out-of-staters?

Since South Lakes is under a microscope and claims they are doing a fabulous job, let's look at some data among the 8 IB schools:

IB Participation Rates For Latinos:

1. Robinson/ 54%
2. Marshall/ 48%
3. Edison/ 27%
3. Lee/ 27%
4. Mt Vernon/ 26%
5. Annandale/ 23%
5. Stuart/ 23%
6. South Lakes/21%

IB Participation Rates For Blacks:

1. Lee/33%
1. Edison/33%
2. Robinson/31%
3. Marshall/ 30%
4. Stuart/27%
5. Mt Vernon/26%
6. Annandale/19%
7. South Lakes/ 19%

SAT Take Rates For Blacks:

1. Robinson/79%
2. Lee/78%
3. Annandale/74%
4. Edison/ 57%
5. Marshall/56%
5. South Lakes/56%
6. Stuart/51%
7. Mt Vernon/43%

SAT Take Rates for Latinos:

1. Robinson/78%
2. Marshall/58%
3. Annandale/43%
4. South Lakes/39%
5. Lee/36%
6. Stuart/34%
6. Edison/34%
7. Mt. Vernon/27%

South Lakes is DEAD LAST in 2 of the 4 catagories and in the bottom half in the other two.

Where is the focus at this school. If I am a Black or Latino parent I should be VERY AFRAID.
4.

You repeatedly bring up what you call "the elephant in the room - socioeconomics".

You are probably familiar with the work of Richard Kahlenberg. In his 2001 book, “All Together Now” he advocates for more parent volunteers and middle class peers who he says have on average twice the vocabulary and half the behavioral problems of poor students. He especially advocates for more good teachers. The theme of his book might be summarized as, "why not give every child in America the opportunity to attend a public school in which the majority of students come from middle-class households?" Your kind of thinker, correct?

The full title of the book is "All Together Now Creating Middle Class Schools Through Public School Choice." [Richard Kahlenberg, Brookings Institution Press 2001 c. 400pp.] According to the publisher's web page, Kahlengerg asks, "Building on two recent education trends-the decline in racial desegregation as a legal tool and the movement toward greater public school choice-All Together Now provides a blueprint for creating schools that educate children from various backgrounds under one roof. Concurring with the concerns of voucher proponents about the unfairness of trapping poor kids in failing schools, the book provides a practical, viable, and legally sound plan for promoting economic and racial integration among public schools." Families would be able to CHOOSE the best school for their children from a range of middle-class public institutions.

I suspect this would be an acceptable solution to most of those who opposed this redistricting. Allow families to CHOOSE the best school for their children, and don't force them to send their children to another school just to reduce the proportion of some type of student already there.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> I gather that the SL perspective was that adding
> more lower-income or ESL kids to South Lakes would
> increase the socio-economic disparity between SL
> and surrounding schools even more. I don't think
> there was any personal animus against the McNair
> community. In fact, from what I heard at the
> public hearings, SL parents were also trying to
> help the McNair students by not pooling too many
> needy kids in one place - and I think McNair kids
> are much better served in their current situation.
>

This socioculturaleconomic study is complete. Thank you all for your participation.

Your IPs have been logged. If the report that is produced as a result of this study uses a message that you have created; you will be credited and properly cited.

This thread will be removed by the site operator (Cary Delwayne) at precisely 11:30PM, tonight, July 21st 2008.

Attention and please, save this thread, if you wish, as it will no longer be available after the aforementioned date & time.

Again, we thank you for your participation. We at the foundation wish you and your children only the best and hope this project has been a worthwhile exercise for all those involved.

IB School Data Wrote:
> ... let's look at some
> data among the 8 IB schools...
>
--
Interesting data, but they are not the numbers I see on the FCPS school profile pages. What is the source of your data?

I said I read a summer mailing - I didn't say which year. It was from 2006, but go right ahead and try to impugn my credibility if it makes you feel better.

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> >
> > I read a summer mailing from the Oakton PTSA
> > president begging for parents to join. She
> quoted
> > a statistic that only 1/3 of the parents at
> Oakton
> > were members. This was two or three years ago.
> >
>
> Begging? Please! My son is a rising Oakton 9th
> grader and we received an "invitation" from the
> PTSA to consider joining. There was no hint of
> begging involved. (And what a stupid point to try
> to make anyway. Anyone who received the letter
> knows you are being dumb--and now you certainly
> have no credibility at all.)

What do you think would happen if there were a state law that said until a school "fixes" it academic program, the FCSB will not redistrict neighborhoods into these schools.




Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When Thoreau and Hughes have the same FRM
> percentage I'll invite the comparison.
>
> why so concerned? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Then stop with the 'failing' schools meme and
> > > we'll talk.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > That's hard when Hughes failed AYP in 2005,
> 2006,
> > 2007, has DOE accreditation rates in the
> 70s/80s
> > and a 57% failure rate at grade 7 maths SOL -
> even
> > including the 20% GT center and a 40% in school
> GT
> > membership.
> >
> > Am I misinterpreting the numbers - should it be
> > 'schools who cunningly hide their success so
> that
> > they don't get swamped with applicants'?
> >
> > Madison North was the only part of the study
> RD'd
> > at the middle school level - from a successful
> > school, of which it has been an active part for
> a
> > very long time, to one with substantial 'hidden
> > success'. All to protect Langley.
> >
> > Ahhhhh - buts it's all about facilities, not
> > performance.
> >
> >
> > So anyway - why are you so concerned that this
> > happens?

Mary Ellen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What do you think would happen if there were a
> state law that said until a school "fixes" it
> academic program, the FCSB will not redistrict
> neighborhoods into these schools.
>
You'd need a definition of when a school was "broken" or "failing," and what would then happen is that the redistricting would occur before the school crossed that threshold.

And, if/when the threshold was passed, the focus would be on permitting the current students at the "broken" or "failing" schools to attend other schools, not making boundary changes to add students.

Isn't this pretty much what we have now?

Since the Judge is expected to rule on the redistricting lawsuit by July 25, can we keep this thread open until then????

you fell for the bait...that was a joke post from one of the pimple-faced nerds who frequent the FFU


Fox Mill mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since the Judge is expected to rule on the
> redistricting lawsuit by July 25, can we keep this
> thread open until then????

Time is running out. Coppermine RD is upon us. With Gibson in office Hunter Mill areas of Floris and McNair are doomed. The SL RD will look like a walk in the park. Any one has updates on all those signatures that were collected.

use more NoVa taxes in NoVa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > There's no justification for placing another VA university in the boonies when we need it here.<<

Amen

> > It should be in either Fairfax or Loudon where it can engage with the high tech industrial and commercial base.< <

Land prices are too high. But Culpeper or Warrenton would have lower land prices without the 6 hour ride

> > Virginia does not need another rural university, it does need more academic capacity integrated with NoVa community - this is where the demand is, this is where the jobs will be, this is where industry needs the research support
>
> Why aren't our local representatives doing their job?< <

So you're calling your delegate and state senator tomorrow, right?

> Also why are there quotas at VA state colleges which make it harder for our kids to get into the universities we pay for, so there's more room for RoVa kids and out-of-staters?< <

First they deny there are any quotas, which is bs of course. Then they'll tell you that if NoVa kids filled all of the public universities, the rest of the state wouldn't support them (as if that would make a difference.)

Then they say that, without the high percentage of out of staters, tuition would be higher for in-staters. Of course, they could cut the university president's 3 country club memberships and other administrative bloat and that would make up for a lower percentage of out of staters also.

http://www.virginia.edu/stats&facts/

UVA In-State / Out-of-State
Admitted 3,349 (53%) / 2,924 (47%)
Enrolled 2,244 (67%) / 1,004 (34%)

Almost half of all UVA admissions are from out-of-state. I'm sure willing to pay higher in-state tuition if that doubles the chance of my child getting admitted.

CAPS, how about it? Can you take on this issue as well?


Thomas More Wrote:
> (snip) they say that, without the high percentage of
> out of staters, tuition would be higher for
> in-staters. Of course, they could cut the
> university president's 3 country club memberships
> and other administrative bloat and that would make
> up for a lower percentage of out of staters also.

Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
CAPS is paying $135,000 for a three hour administrative appeal? Wow!

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

They are finally waking up to the fact that
> enough is enough where Reston and affordable
> housing is concerned. In fact, the only group I
> know of that is pushing more affordable housing in
> Reston, besides the Connelly/Hudgins pairing, is
> Reston Interfaith, and last time I checked, their
> supporters and membership included many do-gooders
> who live outside of Reston in places like Great
> Falls/McLean, Vienna, and Oakton.

Reston has elected Connelly and Hudgins over and over, by large margins. Restonites did the same again, just last year. I am fairly certain that the pair carried every precinct in Reston. One must conclude that the majority of people in Reston support the policies of Hudgins and Connelly, including their strong support of low income housing in Reston. If they didn't support those policies, the people in Reston wouldn't have voted for Connelly and Hudgins in overwhelming numbers. While you may not support more low incoming housing in Reston, clearly your neighbors do.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You MI victim schtick sure gets old. As I asked
> before, are you worried that your kids will fail
> the SOLs? If not, then quit your whining. They
> will get the same education as their peers in ant
> other school in our system. Your concern for the
> 'lowly expected' of Hughes is heartwarming, though
> and I agree that we should raise expectations for
> them. 'Soft bigotry of low expectations' is a
> great phrase and I hope you agree.

On this we can agree. The kind hearts of the educrats support this soft bigotry with the obvious results. Democrats don't think these poor folks can make it without their 'help' and their help has been nothing but disastrous for the poor, keeping them poor and uneducated.

are things really better at SLHS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as participation rates for 12th graders at
> SLHS-an indication of whether the student is going
> the college route-I found some interesting data:
>
> In 2006-07 40 Black students took the SAT with
> about 28% scoring above the national average.
>
> In 2005-06 38 Black students took the SAT with
> about 18% scoring above the national average.
>
> In 2004-05 42 Black students took the SAT with
> about 24% scoring above the national average.
>
> It does not look like the principal, staff, or PTA
> at SLHS is focused on more Black students taking
> the SAT and/or providing them with SAT prep to
> help them improve their performance.

Blacks in FCPS should be performing well above the national average since they come from a population that is educated well above the national average and we spend considerably more per pupil than the national average. Where's the money going?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> their strong support of low income housing in Reston.

There hasn't been a low income housing project built in Reston in 30 years.

You remember back when the Rs controlled the BOS.

This thread is like injahoots being stripped searched in jail. He liked it but this thread must die.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Why can't students in that part of Virginia
> attend UVA Wise?< <
>
> Apparently GMU, JMU and UVA don't want to expand
> any more than is already program. The Commonwealth
> needs a place to send the overflow kids from NoVa
> who qualify for a university education. Instead
> of building a new university near where the kids
> are, the folks who run the state are going to
> build it in the far sw where there is no economic
> base.
>
> > > Are you saying that the rich parts of the
> state shouldn't contribute to the poor parts of
> the state? I thought you were a democrat. Surely
> you don't mind sending your money to support those
> less fortunate in the southern part of our state.<
> <
>
> It is inefficient to whole of society to force
> NoVa students to have to travel 5-6 hours to the
> sw to get a university education when the kids
> from RoVa can get such an education at Radford,
> Longwood, VTech, ODU and CNU, without 5-6 hours of
> travel.
>
> The new university should be closer to NoVa, like
> Culpeper or Warrenton, if its principal purpose is
> to address the overflow of college kids from
> NoVa.
>
> I'm happy to help with economic development
> projects for RoVa if the delegates from RoVa
> reciprocate.
>
> E.g., NoVa is paying for the Coalfield Expressway
> across the southern boundary of the Commonwealth
> but the RoVa delegates won't vote for taxes to
> solve the road shortfall in NoVa.

UVA at Wise isn't a new university. Where are they putting the third UVA?

Do you really think that folks in Southside have enough money to pay for OUR roads? Get real. The rest of this state is POOR. They cannot build roads for us.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > their strong support of low income housing in
> Reston.
>
> There hasn't been a low income housing project
> built in Reston in 30 years.
>
> You remember back when the Rs controlled the BOS.

Good! Then why are Restonians always whining about how they're stuck with more and more low income housing? Are they just stretching the truth for sympathy?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> UVA at Wise isn't a new university. Where are they putting the third UVA?< <

Abingdon?

> > Do you really think that folks in Southside have enough money to pay for OUR roads?< <

A nickel a gallon. 0.40 grantors tax. Sure they can.

Va has a tax burden lower than 46 states.

Do we want to have roads equal to Arkansas or school and universities equal to Mississippi?

To support the IB diploma students at South Lakes? You know the 55 students who graduated with an IB Diploma with only 44 passing enough to get the IB Diploma.

What about the other thousand plus general ed students?



Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> are things really better at SLHS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As far as participation rates for 12th graders
> at
> > SLHS-an indication of whether the student is
> going
> > the college route-I found some interesting
> data:
> >
> > In 2006-07 40 Black students took the SAT with
> > about 28% scoring above the national average.
> >
> > In 2005-06 38 Black students took the SAT with
> > about 18% scoring above the national average.
> >
> > In 2004-05 42 Black students took the SAT with
> > about 24% scoring above the national average.
> >
> > It does not look like the principal, staff, or
> PTA
> > at SLHS is focused on more Black students
> taking
> > the SAT and/or providing them with SAT prep to
> > help them improve their performance.
>
> Blacks in FCPS should be performing well above the
> national average since they come from a population
> that is educated well above the national average
> and we spend considerably more per pupil than the
> national average. Where's the money going?

Questioner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What would be the repercussions if we stopped
> allowing our children to take the SOLs? Since
> they (SB) use this data against high-performing
> communities, I wonder what would happen if they
> just didn't have this data to pull from?
>
> How does this data really benefit the children
> versus the schools and the SB? What negative
> impact could refusing to take the test have on
> high performing students? Could then prevent them
> from enrolling in certain classes--if they could
> there must be a way around that.

I don't know that there would be an impact on individual students in elementary and middle school, but you need verified credits in order to graduate from HS which includes a passing score on a course's associated SOL. No verified credit, no diploma.

Neen Wrote:

>
> Do you really think that folks in Southside have
> enough money to pay for OUR roads? Get real. The
> rest of this state is POOR. They cannot build
> roads for us.


Exactly - Richmond needs to give us back more of OUR money to fix OUR problems rather than expecting us to keep bailing out the rest of the state

use our taxes to fix our roads, fix our schools, build more university capacity where its needed - within an hours drive of fairfax

blow the bridges across the occoquan

Our of state admittees at UVA for the Class of 2012 = 31%. Just read it in the Cavalier Daily yesterday.

Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.virginia.edu/stats&facts/
>
> UVA In-State / Out-of-State
> Admitted 3,349 (53%) / 2,924 (47%)
> Enrolled 2,244 (67%) / 1,004 (34%)
>
> Almost half of all UVA admissions are from
> out-of-state. I'm sure willing to pay higher
> in-state tuition if that doubles the chance of my
> child getting admitted.
>
> CAPS, how about it? Can you take on this issue as
> well?
>
>
> Thomas More Wrote:
> > (snip) they say that, without the high
> percentage of
> > out of staters, tuition would be higher for
> > in-staters. Of course, they could cut the
> > university president's 3 country club
> memberships
> > and other administrative bloat and that would
> make
> > up for a lower percentage of out of staters
> also.

You seem to confusing ADMITTED and ENROLLED. UVA can't know yet how many it admitted will actually enroll. What I posted are the known "Undergraduate ADMISSION Statistics, Fall 2007" and are listed on the UVA web site.

Another number: 61%, almost TWO-THIRDS, of the "Graduate ENROLLMENT (degree-seeking), Fall 2007" are from Out-of-State.

Since OUR university is so popular with out of state students, double THEIR tuition and halve their numbers.

--------------------

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our of state admittees at UVA for the Class of
> 2012 = 31%. Just read it in the Cavalier Daily
> yesterday.
>
> Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > http://www.virginia.edu/stats&facts/
> >
> > UVA In-State / Out-of-State
> > Admitted 3,349 (53%) / 2,924 (47%)
> > Enrolled 2,244 (67%) / 1,004 (34%)
> >
> > Almost half of all UVA admissions are from
> > out-of-state. I'm sure willing to pay higher
> > in-state tuition if that doubles the chance of
> my
> > child getting admitted.
> >
> > CAPS, how about it? Can you take on this issue
> as
> > well?
> >
> >
> > Thomas More Wrote:
> > > (snip) they say that, without the high
> > percentage of
> > > out of staters, tuition would be higher for
> > > in-staters. Of course, they could cut the
> > > university president's 3 country club
> > memberships
> > > and other administrative bloat and that would
> > make
> > > up for a lower percentage of out of staters
> > also.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > UVA at Wise isn't a new university. Where are
> they putting the third UVA?< <
>
> Abingdon?
>
> > > Do you really think that folks in Southside
> have enough money to pay for OUR roads?< <
>
> A nickel a gallon. 0.40 grantors tax. Sure they
> can.
>
> Va has a tax burden lower than 46 states.
>
> Do we want to have roads equal to Arkansas or
> school and universities equal to Mississippi?

You are missing my point that the richest part of the state, here, cannot ask the poorest parts of the state to pay for things we want. It works the other way, the richer people help out the poorer people.

I have no control over Reston-Interfaith, one of the largest advocacy groups for affordable housing, a group made up of many non-Restoners that loves to buy alternative housing for the poor in Reston. They never buy in other jurisdictions, namely where some of their members live!

Remember that lots of voters in Reston don't have school-aged kids and fail to see the impact that their votes have on the schools. That still doesn't excuse the liberals in the rest of the County that vote for Hudgins (the larger Hunter Mill District) and Connelly. Those are the liberals that I targeted yesterday- they are all for liberal policies, just not in their neighborhoods. Vienna is now full of them.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> They are finally waking up to the fact that
> > enough is enough where Reston and affordable
> > housing is concerned. In fact, the only group
> I
> > know of that is pushing more affordable housing
> in
> > Reston, besides the Connelly/Hudgins pairing,
> is
> > Reston Interfaith, and last time I checked,
> their
> > supporters and membership included many
> do-gooders
> > who live outside of Reston in places like Great
> > Falls/McLean, Vienna, and Oakton.
>
> Reston has elected Connelly and Hudgins over and
> over, by large margins. Restonites did the same
> again, just last year. I am fairly certain that
> the pair carried every precinct in Reston. One
> must conclude that the majority of people in
> Reston support the policies of Hudgins and
> Connelly, including their strong support of low
> income housing in Reston. If they didn't support
> those policies, the people in Reston wouldn't have
> voted for Connelly and Hudgins in overwhelming
> numbers. While you may not support more low
> incoming housing in Reston, clearly your neighbors
> do.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our of state admittees at UVA for the Class of
> 2012 = 31%. Just read it in the Cavalier Daily
> yesterday.
>
> Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > http://www.virginia.edu/stats&facts/
> >
> > UVA In-State / Out-of-State
> > Admitted 3,349 (53%) / 2,924 (47%)
> > Enrolled 2,244 (67%) / 1,004 (34%)
> >
> > Almost half of all UVA admissions are from
> > out-of-state. I'm sure willing to pay higher
> > in-state tuition if that doubles the chance of
> my
> > child getting admitted.
> >
> > CAPS, how about it? Can you take on this issue
> as
> > well?
> >
So which is right, the UVA website, or the student newspaper?

Why would you trust CAPS to handle this issue? They say they are for school choice, so why would they purport to tell UVA or any other school how they should handle their admissions policies. I think it's great that UVa and other VA schools has so many out of state students attending (prevents provincial thinking), and they already pay much great tuition than those admitted from in-state.

Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You seem to confusing ADMITTED and ENROLLED. UVA
> can't know yet how many it admitted will actually
> enroll. What I posted are the known "Undergraduate
> ADMISSION Statistics, Fall 2007" and are listed on
> the UVA web site.
>
> Another number: 61%, almost TWO-THIRDS, of the
> "Graduate ENROLLMENT (degree-seeking), Fall 2007"
> are from Out-of-State.
>
> Since OUR university is so popular with out of
> state students, double THEIR tuition and halve
> their numbers.
>
> --------------------
>
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Our of state admittees at UVA for the Class of
> > 2012 = 31%. Just read it in the Cavalier Daily
> > yesterday.
> >
> > Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > http://www.virginia.edu/stats&facts/
> > >
> > > UVA In-State / Out-of-State
> > > Admitted 3,349 (53%) / 2,924 (47%)
> > > Enrolled 2,244 (67%) / 1,004 (34%)
> > >
> > > Almost half of all UVA admissions are from
> > > out-of-state. I'm sure willing to pay higher
> > > in-state tuition if that doubles the chance
> of
> > my
> > > child getting admitted.
> > >
> > > CAPS, how about it? Can you take on this
> issue
> > as
> > > well?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas More Wrote:
> > > > (snip) they say that, without the high
> > > percentage of
> > > > out of staters, tuition would be higher for
> > > > in-staters. Of course, they could cut the
> > > > university president's 3 country club
> > > memberships
> > > > and other administrative bloat and that
> would
> > > make
> > > > up for a lower percentage of out of staters
> > > also.

why so concerned? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>> let me get this right...
>
>
> any question as to why there is such low
> performance in a county school is bigotry?

Yes, nothing but sheer racism, plain and simple. If you question the low scores of Black students in FCPS, if you think that they deserve a real education, that is further proof that you are a racist. If you believe it's unfair that students from lower income families are stuck with an IB program that they didn't want and didn't choose, that confirms even further that you are a racist and you probably hate puppies and kittens too. If you think that the latest redistricting was a total, political, fiasco, probably hate ALL minorities, ALL children, and ALL animals, and have repeatedly tried to kill Bambi's mother, AND Bambi.
>


whichever - its BS

Yes, it certainly is.

Questioner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What would be the repercussions if we stopped
> allowing our children to take the SOLs? Since
> they (SB) use this data against high-performing
> communities, I wonder what would happen if they
> just didn't have this data to pull from?
>
> How does this data really benefit the children
> versus the schools and the SB? What negative
> impact could refusing to take the test have on
> high performing students? Could then prevent them
> from enrolling in certain classes--if they could
> there must be a way around that.

Good questions. The school board and staff care about staff, schools (principals), not students. They've made it readily apparent that their job is to keep principals and staff happy, not students.

SOL tests cannot prevent any student from taking any class, unless an individual school (Principal) has decided to dole out such a punishment.

If a child is sick the week of SOL tests, surely he shouldn't be punished for that.

blow the bridges Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
>
> >
> > Do you really think that folks in Southside
> have
> > enough money to pay for OUR roads? Get real.
> The
> > rest of this state is POOR. They cannot build
> > roads for us.
>
>
> Exactly - Richmond needs to give us back more of
> OUR money to fix OUR problems rather than
> expecting us to keep bailing out the rest of the
> state
>
> use our taxes to fix our roads, fix our schools,
> build more university capacity where its needed -
> within an hours drive of fairfax
>
> blow the bridges across the occoquan

Yeah, screw those poor people in the rest of state. We need more roads for our Mercedes and BMW's. There's no good reason why those folks in Lee and Wise county can't keep driving their trucks on dirt roads. Afterall, who's more important? Us or them?

Have you considered succession for Occupied Virginia? Then the rich could keep their money and let the poor rot in their ruts. Might work for us.

Legislator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mary Ellen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What do you think would happen if there were a
> > state law that said until a school "fixes" it
> > academic program, the FCSB will not redistrict
> > neighborhoods into these schools.
> >
> You'd need a definition of when a school was
> "broken" or "failing," and what would then happen
> is that the redistricting would occur before the
> school crossed that threshold.
>
> And, if/when the threshold was passed, the focus
> would be on permitting the current students at the
> "broken" or "failing" schools to attend other
> schools, not making boundary changes to add
> students.
>
> Isn't this pretty much what we have now?

Thank goodness South Lakes avoided that fate by grabbing students from other schools.

From the CAV Daily regarding tuition:

"The average total price for a first-year undergraduate student next year (2008-2009), including room and board, will be $17,318 for a Virginia resident and $37,618 for an out-of-state student.

You mean like Madison did when they pulled Oakton kids in, or like two years ago when they worked with the Hunter Mill Estates cabal to try to pull them from SL into Madison?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Legislator Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Mary Ellen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > What do you think would happen if there were
> a
> > > state law that said until a school "fixes" it
> > > academic program, the FCSB will not
> redistrict
> > > neighborhoods into these schools.
> > >
> > You'd need a definition of when a school was
> > "broken" or "failing," and what would then
> happen
> > is that the redistricting would occur before
> the
> > school crossed that threshold.
> >
> > And, if/when the threshold was passed, the
> focus
> > would be on permitting the current students at
> the
> > "broken" or "failing" schools to attend other
> > schools, not making boundary changes to add
> > students.
> >
> > Isn't this pretty much what we have now?
>
> Thank goodness South Lakes avoided that fate by
> grabbing students from other schools.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no control over Reston-Interfaith, one of
> the largest advocacy groups for affordable
> housing, a group made up of many non-Restoners
> that loves to buy alternative housing for the poor
> in Reston. They never buy in other jurisdictions,
> namely where some of their members live!
>
> Remember that lots of voters in Reston don't have
> school-aged kids and fail to see the impact that
> their votes have on the schools. That still
> doesn't excuse the liberals in the rest of the
> County that vote for Hudgins (the larger Hunter
> Mill District) and Connelly. Those are the
> liberals that I targeted yesterday- they are all
> for liberal policies, just not in their
> neighborhoods. Vienna is now full of them.

And Vienna is quite happy to let those folks continue to build and buy housing for poor folks in Reston. Why wouldn't they?

Perhaps some of those liberals in Vienna are smart enough to think that the market works just fine and people should live wherever they can afford to live. If folks in Reston don't believe that principle, and want to subsidize people living where they cannot afford to live, that is certainly their right. We have the right to give our money to whomever we choose. What we can't demand is that our friends and neighbors contribute to the charity of OUR choice. If people in Reston choose low income housing as their charity, that's entirely up to them, but they cannot force their charity of choice on those outside of Reston.

Do you know how the folks in Reston choose who to subsidize? Is there any chance they would give me some money to live in a larger house, with more land, out in Great Falls? A pool would be nice too. Let me know if there is any way that I might get help living in a house that I can't afford, rather than having to move further out for a home that I can afford.

Thanks.

Kindly pull your forked tongue out of your cheek, Neen. They are called Vienna limousine liberals and what they fail to understand is that the schmucks they keep voting in will eventually drag down their community as well. Didn't you already admit yesterday that Madison is on the decline. You know, as your rich limousine liberal neighbors redevelop Vienna Woods one house at a time they will grow the accompanying liberal guilt and before you know it, they will have their very own version of Reston Interfaith- only it will be your neighborhood where they buy the affordable housing units - right there next to the puplic transportation. Then, the schadenfreude will be sweet from my perspective.

Cheers.

Neen,

Sounds like you are more concerned about real estate values than education.

Reston has always been planned since the beginning of the Reston master plan to be a mix of all cultures and social classes. That's why the Reston plan in the 60's of Robert E Simmon (RES) got national attention and awards.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
If you believe it's unfair that students
> from lower income families are stuck with an IB
> program that they didn't want and didn't choose,
> that confirms even further that you are a racist
> and you probably hate puppies and kittens too.

Is there a disconnect here? If poorer/middle-income students can really get significantly more college credit with AP courses than IB, it seems the parents in the current IB schools - who would pay the steepest price - ought to be pushing hard to substitute AP for IB. Is that happening anywhere now? I've heard the story about Woodson, but that was a while ago and Woodson is a relatively high-income area.

Do you think Fairfax County Public Schools should fill half of its seats with students from outside the County, and REJECT 47% of our own children?

Similarly, school choice does not mean a taxpayer-supported public university should send almost half of its "Congrats! You've been admitted!" letters to people from out of state!

Why should a single cent of MY tax dollars go to a grad school in which TWO-THIRDS are not Virginians?


------------------

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would you trust CAPS to handle this issue?
> They say they are for school choice, so why would
> they purport to tell UVA or any other school how
> they should handle their admissions policies. I
> think it's great that UVa and other VA schools has
> so many out of state students attending (prevents
> provincial thinking), and they already pay much
> great tuition than those admitted from in-state.
>
>
> Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You seem to confusing ADMITTED and ENROLLED.
> UVA
> > can't know yet how many it admitted will
> actually
> > enroll. What I posted are the known
> "Undergraduate
> > ADMISSION Statistics, Fall 2007" and are listed
> on
> > the UVA web site.
> >
> > Another number: 61%, almost TWO-THIRDS, of the
> > "Graduate ENROLLMENT (degree-seeking), Fall
> 2007"
> > are from Out-of-State.
> >
> > Since OUR university is so popular with out of
> > state students, double THEIR tuition and halve
> > their numbers.
> >
> > --------------------
> >
> > Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Our of state admittees at UVA for the Class
> of
> > > 2012 = 31%. Just read it in the Cavalier
> Daily
> > > yesterday.
> > >
> > > Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > http://www.virginia.edu/stats&facts/
> > > >
> > > > UVA In-State / Out-of-State
> > > > Admitted 3,349 (53%) / 2,924 (47%)
> > > > Enrolled 2,244 (67%) / 1,004 (34%)
> > > >
> > > > Almost half of all UVA admissions are from
> > > > out-of-state. I'm sure willing to pay
> higher
> > > > in-state tuition if that doubles the chance
> > of
> > > my
> > > > child getting admitted.
> > > >
> > > > CAPS, how about it? Can you take on this
> > issue
> > > as
> > > > well?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thomas More Wrote:
> > > > > (snip) they say that, without the high
> > > > percentage of
> > > > > out of staters, tuition would be higher
> for
> > > > > in-staters. Of course, they could cut
> the
> > > > > university president's 3 country club
> > > > memberships
> > > > > and other administrative bloat and that
> > would
> > > > make
> > > > > up for a lower percentage of out of
> staters
> > > > also.

Another Issue...
You should check out the percentage of the University's operating budget covered by the state -it's so small as to be laughable. If it weren't for the donations of alumnus from in and out of state, the school wouldn't survive. It is not a true public school. Long ago, the State told UVa and other schools not to count on them for money - look at the budgets if you don't believe me, and UVa smartly went to its alumnus for help.

50% of Fairfax County's total budget goes to the schools. When VA funds its colleges the same way, we'll talk.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Yeah, screw those poor people in the rest of
> state. We need more roads for our Mercedes and
> BMW's. There's no good reason why those folks in
> Lee and Wise county can't keep driving their
> trucks on dirt roads. Afterall, who's more
> important? Us or them?
>
> Have you considered succession for Occupied
> Virginia? Then the rich could keep their money
> and let the poor rot in their ruts. Might work
> for us.

mmmm... let me check... still no BMW or Mercedes outside ... 8 year old car stuffed with childseats. let me just check... no, not rich yet...

are you suggesting that state tax $ be spend pro-rate equally per square mile rather than on the needs where the taxes are raised? why not send it all to the Feds or Mexico?

there's quite clearly a policy tradeoff between how much you spend where the people are and how much you spend where the expansive views are.

I suspect that you'll find that most people in FFX feel that too high a proportion of their taxes are spend outside of FFX. Taxed through the nose and services which get poorer by the year, No-one objects to some state pooling of taxes to pay for where the need if - but why do we have to be the states cash cow and still have crap roads?

If we don't maintain the quality of life in NoVa, the high quality workforce will ebb away and less money will get to Richmond.

They might have a better basis to understand the issue if they could get a better accounting of what comes in and goes out of NoVa.

Actually, I've always thought that VA is too big - northern succession might not be such a bad idea. I'd vote for that

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You mean like Madison did when they pulled Oakton
> kids in, or like two years ago when they worked
> with the Hunter Mill Estates cabal to try to pull
> them from SL into Madison?

Hunter Mill estates was always meant to be part of Madison - the move to SL was an administrative bait and switch by the SB which came as a surprise to the people who had bought the houses

Madison North was not the island - it became isolated by the administrative re-designation of hunter mill estates which became an invasive peninsular, to be used as a wedge - presumably always the plan

[Why do you write "You should check out..." instead of giving the information you think we should have?]

http://www.web.virginia.edu/iaas/data_catalog/institutional/data_digest/fin_income.htm

2007 UVA Revenue
Tuition and fees, net $279M
Grants and contracts $284M
Auxiliary enterprises, net $106M
Other operating revenues $19M
State appropriations $155M
Gifts and contributions $142M
Investment Income $656M
Other nonoperating revenue $25M
Capital appropriations $90M
Capital gifts and grants $48M
Additions to permanent endowment $18M
Grand Total $1,820,310,347


Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another Issue...
> You should check out the percentage of the
> University's operating budget covered by the state
> -it's so small as to be laughable. If it weren't
> for the donations of alumnus from in and out of
> state, the school wouldn't survive. It is not a
> true public school. Long ago, the State told UVa
> and other schools not to count on them for money -
> look at the budgets if you don't believe me, and
> UVa smartly went to its alumnus for help.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. You think 50% of the state budget should go to its public universities?

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 50% of Fairfax County's total budget goes to the
> schools. When VA funds its colleges the same way,
> we'll talk.

bait and switch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You mean like Madison did when they pulled
> Oakton
> > kids in, or like two years ago when they worked
> > with the Hunter Mill Estates cabal to try to
> pull
> > them from SL into Madison?
>
> Hunter Mill estates was always meant to be part of
> Madison - the move to SL was an administrative
> bait and switch by the SB which came as a surprise
> to the people who had bought the houses
>
> Madison North was not the island - it became
> isolated by the administrative re-designation of
> hunter mill estates which became an invasive
> peninsular, to be used as a wedge - presumably
> always the plan


Ha, ha, ha!

Sure. Why not drive 6 miles down Lawyers, passing through five intersections to Windover, to Nutley, before you reach Madison, instead of the 1.7 m from Hunter Mill Estates to SLHS? Why not?

The real question is how come all those 'hoods along Hunter Mill from Sunrise Valley up to Lawyers aren't in the SLHS Pyramid....oh yeah, I forgot...b/c the School Board has been so "in the tank" for the SLHS PTSA.....I'm still laughing.

Whine on, you crazy rangers.

I am so confused. I was convinced that kids in IB schools who don't get the IB diploma get no credit or other benefits from taking individual IB courses.

But my niece, who was not an IB Diploma candidate at SLHS, just earned 6 credits at her VA public U (MW, where she'll be a freshman next month) based on her IB test scores. And one of her friends going to Princeton did the same.

So is what I have heard about IB here and at poolside wrong?

Hi All Oakton Parents,

Since our last meeting of OakARKS (Oakton against redistricting for $1000's) was so successful we are planning another for next weekend.

We will be reviewing our lawsuit plans and the boundaries we want for Oakton High. We will also discuss the new name of the mascot. Pathers has been suggested, two members liked the name so maybe that will win. :)

We will have milk and ice cream as usual. You know our meeting always have great desserts and ice cream. Some members suggested also having hot tea this time. If want just bring it along and your own tea cup.

Only Oakton Parents or Oakton Realtor's.

Last time we met after the soccer games at Oakton, but if someone has a better suggestion or the tea format just email me.

Go Oakton Pathers! : ) (I'll try to keep my kids from scream this time, but as usual they will probably not listen to me LOL)

Mad. Mum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am so confused. I was convinced that kids in IB
> schools who don't get the IB diploma get no credit
> or other benefits from taking individual IB
> courses.
>
> But my niece, who was not an IB Diploma candidate
> at SLHS, just earned 6 credits at her VA public U
> (MW, where she'll be a freshman next month) based
> on her IB test scores. And one of her friends
> going to Princeton did the same.
>
> So is what I have heard about IB here and at
> poolside wrong?

Not completely wrong, just exagerated. IB courses can earn some college credit, but, right or wrong, they pale in comparison to the college credits available from taking AP courses.

Hi All Oakton Parents Me again : ),

I forgot that we also need to discuss if we want IB, GT or AP at Oakton. Some parents seem to want IB and some want AP. Do some research on which one you want IB\AP\GT and bring it with you so we can decide.

Mary sent me an email and suggested a pot luck dinner also. That might be a bit much for some of us as we are watching our figures. ;0) (You know how difficult it is to get a new man when your overweight and in your late 30's.)

I can't wait for our get together. Sweets Later

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mad. Mum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am so confused. I was convinced that kids in
> IB
> > schools who don't get the IB diploma get no
> credit
> > or other benefits from taking individual IB
> > courses.
> >
> > But my niece, who was not an IB Diploma
> candidate
> > at SLHS, just earned 6 credits at her VA public
> U
> > (MW, where she'll be a freshman next month)
> based
> > on her IB test scores. And one of her friends
> > going to Princeton did the same.
> >
> > So is what I have heard about IB here and at
> > poolside wrong?
>
> Not completely wrong, just exagerated. IB courses
> can earn some college credit, but, right or wrong,
> they pale in comparison to the college credits
> available from taking AP courses.

It also depends on the college. Some schools give credit for some IB courses, others will only give credit for the full diploma.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mad. Mum Wrote:
> > I am so confused. I was convinced that kids in
> IB
> > schools who don't get the IB diploma get no
> credit
> > or other benefits from taking individual IB
> > courses.
> >
> > But my niece, who was not an IB Diploma
> candidate
> > at SLHS, just earned 6 credits at her VA public
> U
> > (MW, where she'll be a freshman next month)
> based
> > on her IB test scores. And one of her friends
> > going to Princeton did the same.
> >
> > So is what I have heard about IB here and at
> > poolside wrong?
>
> Not completely wrong, just exagerated. IB courses
> can earn some college credit, but, right or wrong,
> they pale in comparison to the college credits
> available from taking AP courses.

-----------
To elaborate on what SBS wrote, while each college and university has its own policies, in general only IB HIGH LEVEL courses can earn college credit if the student scores well enough on the exam. To quote from their web site, "The University of Mary Washington accepts only Highler [sic] Learning test scores of 5 or higher."
http://www.umw.edu/registrar/transferring_to_umw/freshmen_international_bac.php

In contrast, Mary Washington generally awards credits for ALL AP courses in which students score 3 or higher.

You did not state the exams for which your niece earned credit so it is hard to compare how she would have fared in an AP school, but we can give it a try. Assume she earned credit on her English and Social Studies IB HL exams (each of which are two-year courses), Now assume instead of scoring 5's on IB HL exams she scored 4's on AP exams in both social studies and English in both her junior and senior years (US History, US and Comparative Government, and both English Lit and English Comp). In these same two years in these same two subjects, your niece would instead now have at least eighteen credits.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > UVA at Wise isn't a new university. Where
> are
> > they putting the third UVA?< <
> >
> > Abingdon?
> >
> > > > Do you really think that folks in Southside have enough money to pay for OUR roads?< < < <
> >
> > A nickel a gallon. 0.40 grantors tax. Sure they can.< <
> >
> > Va has a tax burden lower than 46 states.
> >
> > Do we want to have roads equal to Arkansas or school and universities equal to Mississippi?< <
>
> > You are missing my point that the richest part of the state, here, cannot ask the poorest parts of the state to pay for things we want. It works the other way, the richer people help out the poorer people.< <

Holy snickies, Batman! did you suddenly become a communist? ;-)

Since NoVa has the largest amount of economic activity, NoVa would pay most of a new gas tax or grantors tax. Out of staters would pay some of the gas tax as they pass through and if they never sell their house folks in RoVa don't have to pay the grantors tax but commercial tenants will.

True some Colleges and Universities award more points for IB and some for AP.

It all depends on the college. Colleges are PRIVATE institutes so can do as they please.

Colleges can make their own standards of credit and admissions. Good colleges are assessed by the Department of Education or several other accreditation boards but that just assures their programs can qualify for gov financial aid.

This explains the college system well http://www.distance-learning-college-guide.com/college-accreditation.html

Please specify several US schools that give MORE credit for two years of IB than for two years of AP - I have not found any, but that does not mean they don't exist.

--------

IB vs AP Wrote:
> True some Colleges and Universities award more
> points for IB and some for AP.
>

I was being ironic. If you read my posts you would know that I would never expect that, but tell me what percentage 155 mil is if the total State of Virginia budget - isn't that what UVa is getting from the State. Drop in the bucket!

Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't understand what you are trying to say. You
> think 50% of the state budget should go to its
> public universities?
>
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 50% of Fairfax County's total budget goes to
> the
> > schools. When VA funds its colleges the same
> way,
> > we'll talk.

bait and switch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
hunter mill estates which became an invasive
> peninsular, to be used as a wedge - presumably
> always the plan

Is peninsular how you folks in MI say peninsula?

Which ones? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please specify several US schools that give MORE
> credit for two years of IB than for two years of
> AP - I have not found any, but that does not mean
> they don't exist.
>
> --------
>
> IB vs AP Wrote:
> > True some Colleges and Universities award more
> > points for IB and some for AP.
> >


One that I know of is Rice University. Lots of AP credits. Only accepts IB if full diploma.
http://registrar.rice.edu/ap_ib.aspx

No repercussions for elementary students not taking the SOLs. Good news for the school if they were going to fail and are absent, bad news if they would have received an Pass Advanced score.

Some high school courses need a passing SOL score in order for credit to be given. If you opt out of the test and don't get credit, you would not qualify to graduate.

I think we need to make this a legislative issue.

First, maybe CAPS could gather data to see if schools like GMU, VT, etc, has that same % of admitted and enrolled.

As a VA taxpayer and I know some kids who had super grades and other credentials who were denied admissions.

Colleges do get extra $$$ for tuition for out of state enrollees, but this is just not right.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Our of state admittees at UVA for the Class of
> > 2012 = 31%. Just read it in the Cavalier Daily
> > yesterday.
> >
> > Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > http://www.virginia.edu/stats&facts/
> > >
> > > UVA In-State / Out-of-State
> > > Admitted 3,349 (53%) / 2,924 (47%)
> > > Enrolled 2,244 (67%) / 1,004 (34%)
> > >
> > > Almost half of all UVA admissions are from
> > > out-of-state. I'm sure willing to pay higher
> > > in-state tuition if that doubles the chance
> of
> > my
> > > child getting admitted.
> > >
> > > CAPS, how about it? Can you take on this
> issue
> > as
> > > well?
> > >
> So which is right, the UVA website, or the student
> newspaper?

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I think it's great that UVa and other VA schools has so many out of state students attending (prevents provincial thinking), and they already pay much great tuition than those admitted from in-state.< <

Except Chapel Hill, Ann Arbor and Berkeley are better schools with little evidence of provincialism and have only 18% or fewer out of state kids.

Given the diversity of the worldviews among NoVa residents, replacing the 20% extra out of staters at UVa and W&M with NoVa high school grads would do a better job of reducing provincialism at Va universities than importing swells from out of state.

Of course the irony is that UVa was founded by Mr. Jefferson to perpetuate provincialism in the sons of the plantation class. He was disturb by the number of those sons of the slave owning class who went to Penn, Princeton, Columbia, Yale or Harvard and returned abolistionists or worse adherents to Mr. Hamilton's vision of a strong central government.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > I think it's great that UVa and other VA
> schools has so many out of state students
> attending (prevents provincial thinking), and they
> already pay much great tuition than those admitted
> from in-state.< <
>
> Except Chapel Hill, Ann Arbor and Berkeley are
> better schools with little evidence of
> provincialism and have only 18% or fewer out of
> state kids.
>
> Given the diversity of the worldviews among NoVa
> residents, replacing the 20% extra out of staters
> at UVa and W&M with NoVa high school grads would
> do a better job of reducing provincialism at Va
> universities than importing swells from out of
> state.
>
> Of course the irony is that UVa was founded by Mr.
> Jefferson to perpetuate provincialism in the sons
> of the plantation class. He was disturb by the
> number of those sons of the slave owning class who
> went to Penn, Princeton, Columbia, Yale or Harvard
> and returned abolistionists or worse adherents to
> Mr. Hamilton's vision of a strong central
> government.


So a kid in NOVA might go private while a kid whose parents bought a house in Maryland pays less? Same job different jurisdiction for residence. Bethesda is close to Tysons and a quicker commute than many areas in VA. it's like New York and Philadelphia. In each case somebody could work in the city and live in one of at least 3 states.

What's the breakdown on non Virginians at these 2 schools?

Good God Why don't all of you whiny ass people give this topic a rest.
Boo hoo hoo my kid has to go here, my kid has go there. who in the hell gives a shit. Life is not fair, tell them to suck it up and move on

At which two schools?

--------
taxpayer Wrote:
> What's the breakdown on non Virginians at these 2
> schools?

Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At which two schools?
>
> --------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> > What's the breakdown on non Virginians at these
> 2
> > schools?

William and Mary and UVA. Any other lists with states and countries? I found this and if correct my anecdotal [parents,friends, relatives] info is on target:

http://www.web.virginia.edu/IAAS/data_catalog/institutional/data_digest/enrl_state.htm

That list shows "other" so what is UVA doing? Do Upperclassmen change residence to VA to reduce costs?

UVA has higher increase for instate that out.

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=33492&pid=1730

$37,618 for an out-of-state student while Tufts and Wake Forest over 46,000.

Over 25 years ago I heard UVA is a bargain for out of state.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no control over Reston-Interfaith, one of
> the largest advocacy groups for affordable
> housing, a group made up of many non-Restoners
> that loves to buy alternative housing for the poor
> in Reston. They never buy in other jurisdictions,
> namely where some of their members live!
>

It seems that you are misinformed. Thomas More says no low income housing has been built in Reston in 30 years. So no problems with that issue in Reston.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back to You Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Why was there a National Achievement Scholar
> from
> > South Lakes last year, and not one from
> Madison,
> > Oakton or Chantilly?
>
Perhaps because those schools have many fewer Black students, and that "achievement" is only open to Blacks? Can we assume that said Black student did not score high enough to be a National Merit Scholar finalist (all races), like the 155 students at TJ, the 6 at Oakton, 3 at Chantilly, 7 at Langley?

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another Issue...
> You should check out the percentage of the
> University's operating budget covered by the state
> -it's so small as to be laughable. If it weren't
> for the donations of alumnus from in and out of
> state, the school wouldn't survive. It is not a
> true public school. Long ago, the State told UVa
> and other schools not to count on them for money -
> look at the budgets if you don't believe me, and
> UVa smartly went to its alumnus for help.

Gee, it's not like any other university begs alumns for money.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another Issue For CAPS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > At which two schools?
> >
> > --------
> > taxpayer Wrote:
> > > What's the breakdown on non Virginians at
> these
> > 2
> > > schools?
>
> William and Mary and UVA. Any other lists with
> states and countries? I found this and if
> correct my anecdotal info is on target:
>
> http://www.web.virginia.edu/IAAS/data_catalog/inst
> itutional/data_digest/enrl_state.htm
>
> That list shows "other" so what is UVA doing? Do
> Upperclassmen change residence to VA to reduce
> costs?
>
> UVA has higher increase for instate that out.
>
> http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=3349
> 2&pid=1730
>
> $37,618 for an out-of-state student while Tufts
> and Wake Forest over 46,000.
>
> Over 25 years ago I heard UVA is a bargain for out
> of state.

And it still is a bargain for out of state, as are most state universities. GW is over $60,000 a year. Many private universities are approaching that amount.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kindly pull your forked tongue out of your cheek,
> Neen. They are called Vienna limousine liberals
> and what they fail to understand is that the
> schmucks they keep voting in will eventually drag
> down their community as well. Didn't you already
> admit yesterday that Madison is on the decline.
> You know, as your rich limousine liberal neighbors
> redevelop Vienna Woods one house at a time they
> will grow the accompanying liberal guilt and
> before you know it, they will have their very own
> version of Reston Interfaith- only it will be your
> neighborhood where they buy the affordable housing
> units - right there next to the puplic
> transportation. Then, the schadenfreude will be
> sweet from my perspective.
>
> Cheers.

But, according to Thomas More, no low income housing is being built anywhere. The town of Vienna is not next to the metro. Nor does the town have any low income housing. Nor will it. There is no place in the town to build cheap apartments.

How does Reston inter faith control ALL of the voters in Reston?

Sorry dear, but screaming liberals, in their birkenstocks and granny dresses, will always want to be with their own kind and will gravitate to Reston and Alexandria.

Madison is declining for the same reason that many (most?) public schools are declining. Those with money are leaving, in droves, for private schools. As Vienna and Oakton get wealthier, as you have pointed out, they remove their kids from public schools. Those who don't get into TJ, go private because they know that the schools in FCPS range from crummy to very mediocre. FCPS staff, like public schools across the country, are killing the goose that laid their golden eggs with their wacky, leftist, dumbed down, programs. Parents who can afford a real education for their children do so.

Schrodinger's Cat said this and that
The Meeper and the rest of the people thik it is now time to put the cat to sleep for ever if you get the hidden message here, We dont mean a little nap!!! We mean forever asleep!!! Do you get it now?

Good ,

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another Issue...
> You should check out the percentage of the
> University's operating budget covered by the state
> -it's so small as to be laughable. If it weren't
> for the donations of alumnus from in and out of
> state, the school wouldn't survive. It is not a
> true public school. Long ago, the State told UVa
> and other schools not to count on them for money -
> look at the budgets if you don't believe me, and
> UVa smartly went to its alumnus for help.

Why would UVA need more money from the state? The university is very well endowed. You need to get your nose out of all your alumnus magazines. You're beginning to believe their press and scare tactics.

Please feel free to continue to contribute to the UVA endowment fund. I am sure they will appreciate it.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > I think it's great that UVa and other VA
> schools has so many out of state students
> attending (prevents provincial thinking), and they
> already pay much great tuition than those admitted
> from in-state.< <
>
> Except Chapel Hill, Ann Arbor and Berkeley are
> better schools with little evidence of
> provincialism and have only 18% or fewer out of
> state kids.
>
> Given the diversity of the worldviews among NoVa
> residents, replacing the 20% extra out of staters
> at UVa and W&M with NoVa high school grads would
> do a better job of reducing provincialism at Va
> universities than importing swells from out of
> state.
>
> Of course the irony is that UVa was founded by Mr.
> Jefferson to perpetuate provincialism in the sons
> of the plantation class. He was disturb by the
> number of those sons of the slave owning class who
> went to Penn, Princeton, Columbia, Yale or Harvard
> and returned abolistionists or worse adherents to
> Mr. Hamilton's vision of a strong central
> government.

Why didn't Mr.Jefferson encourage Virginians to attend William and Mary, as he did?

Only slave owners sent their children to the Ivies back then? I thought a lot of Yankees went to those schools too.

And, no, Chapel Hill and Michigan are not better schools than UVA.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > .....$37,618 for an out-of-state student while
> Tufts
> > and Wake Forest over 46,000.
> >
> > Over 25 years ago I heard UVA is a bargain for
> out
> > of state.
>
> And it still is a bargain for out of state, as are
> most state universities. GW is over $60,000 a
> year. Many private universities are approaching
> that amount.


Heard comments on Virginia as a state years ago about being so dumb it receives interstate garbage and charges trailer park tuition for what are regarded as private schools. W & M and UVA might be the only state schools applied to by a typical applicant from the burbs of New York.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Why didn't Mr.Jefferson encourage Virginians to attend William and Mary, as he did?< <

Not enough seats.

> > Only slave owners sent their children to the Ivies back then? I thought a lot of Yankees went to those schools too.< <

I didn't write that. Put on the bifocals. Sheesh. Sure Northerners went to those schools. The difference is that they already were abolitionists and nationalists before they got to those universities.

> And, no, Chapel Hill and Michigan are not better schools than UVA.

Mort Zuckerman has his opinion and others have theirs. Note they, and Jay Mathews, agree on Berkley.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2008 07:36AM by Thomas More.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > W & M and UVA might be the only state schools applied to by a typical applicant from the burbs of New York.< <

You'll find a large contingent of suburb NY'ers at almost every state school in the South as the kids are desperate to get away from NY winters.

They even sit together at tables in the cafeteria wearing their Yankees and Mets hats kavetching about their inability to find good deli in the south and how the professors keep mispronouncing their last names.